The illusion of "Power"
hard...@freemail.c3.hu
many places. Parents have that "illusion" of they have power over their
children.
The other day the teenage daughter of one of my good friend ran away from
home. The reason is simple --- she just couldn't take it anymore, with violin
lessons, ballet lessons, tennis lessons, swimming lessons, this lessons and
that lessons, and have to go to school some more. The girl ends up with no
time for her own.
What she has is an "arranged" childhood.
And when the "run away" things happened, the parents (my friend and his
spouse) were worried and angry.
I am not surprise at their worries. After all, it was their teenage daughter,
and in the society we are living in, teenage girls who ran away from home
more often than not end up in some rather bad situation.
It's the ANGER that surprised me.
They (the parents) were angry at the teenage girl for NOT OBEYING THEM and
NOT APPRECIATING what they have done for them.
They were telling me how much money they have spent to make their child "a
better person", how difficult it is for them to find good teachers and
schools and all those lesson things for their child, and so on and so forth.
I mean, I was almost speechless.
My own childhood was in abject proverty, but at least I had a childhood, and
this girl who was born to a wealthy family, with the parents who are so
concerned about her "future", thinking they have "power" over their child,
pushing her to take too many things until she breaks.
When I was a kid, yes, life was tough. My younger brother died of
malnutrition, and we slept everynight with nothing in our stomach --- my
parents simply couldn't make enough to feed all of us --- but at least I had
a childhood.
Yes, all of my brothers and sisters studied hard, very hard whenever we find
time. And yes, we go out and work as child workers, in kopitiam, and in
motorshops and in tailors. Ah, yes, I still know how to make beautiful
dresses, from designing, to cutting to sewing, and I am a man. No reason to
feel ashame of.
But at least I _had_ time to myself, after all the works and studies, I
managed to find some times for myself.
Most of my free time I spent listening stories from the old men in my
neighborhood. I like listening to stories, stories from old china, stories
about the Bataan Death March in Burma, and so on....
But on the other hand, my friend's teenage daughter has NO TIME for her own.
She has done all she could to please her parents. She excels in her school
work, she plays violin so well her instructor has recommend to my friend that
he should sent her to Europe to be taught by "real experts".
I have known my friend for many years. He and his wife are good people. They
have everything planned for their only child, they really love their child.
But what they have done wrong, IMHO, is that they thought they have "CONTROL"
over their child. That they have that illusion of power over "what they have
produced". And thus, their "well intentions" have pushed their only child to
the brink and the "ran away" episode happened.
If you are a parent, I urge you to stop and think.
Of course you want the best for your child, but is what you are doing to (or
for) them really good for them, or is that only good for you?
Many parents I've seen thought that they do what they are doing to (and for)
their children for their children's sake. But in actuality, what they are
doing is for their own sake --- that if their children excel, for example,
those parents get to boast their "success" to relative and friends, and when
their friends heard those boasts, they will go home and scold their own
children for "bringing shame to them" for "not being a good kid" and so on.
If you are a parent, please think for a while.
Try to put yourself in a child's shoe.
As a child, you love your parents, and you do not want to disappoint your
parent. So whatever your parents want you to do, you will do it, even if you
HATE that stuff very much.
And the more you (the child) do it, the more the demand from the parents
increase. It is kinda like an endless loop, and the more pressures and
demands the parents have on their children, the more the children suffer.
Do you, as a parent, wants your child to suffer?
Yes, there is NOTHING WRONG for wanting the best for your children. But
everything must have a limit. Your chidlren have their own limits too.
And please remember, your children are HUMAN BEINGS as well. Please do not
push them as if they are SLAVES or something.
I am only writing this message because I have seen too much sufferings of the
children. Please stop making them feeling miserable.
Childhood supposed to be HAPPY.
Please do not make your chidlren growning up HATING their own childhoods.
You as a parent is responsible for the wellbeing of your chidlren, that
includes making them HAPPY.
Please do not have that "illusion" that your chidren are "your product", that
you have "power" over "your products". They are flesh and blood HUMAN BEINGS,
and they feel and think.
Oh, for my friend, yes, we have found his teenage girl. She is back with her
parents, for now.
Sincerely,
Bob
hard...@freemail.c3.hu
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ltl...@mindspring.com
about the new situation under which being kids of Chinese parents can
be very difficult. They are under the cross-hair of two factors:
Globalization and Chinese tradition.
I. Globalization
Two implications:
1) No boundary between childhood and adulthood.
One hundred years ago, childhood was largely play time and adulthood
was largely be work time.
a) Adulthood is largely work time because of they have no time other
than the designated holidays.
With the advance of air transportation, it is no longer true. Want a
break? If you are from the American East Coast, you can easily fly to
London for lunch, do some shopping, visit some friend, and come home
for late dinner. How long will such transatlantic voyage take 100 years
ago? How many people can afford the time off.
b) Adulthood is largely work time because of they have less toys.
If you like fishing, you can buy a boat and fishing rod and you sit on
your boat fishing. Nowadays, you can buy all kinds of boats. You can in
addition buy some fancy sonar or radar equipment to find the fish. You
can also buy the GPS system to help you get to the best fishing spot.
To maximize the benefits of the gadgets, you of course have to spend
more time study the various function of the new gadget(toys) before and
after you buy them.
If adulthood can be of more fun than childhood, there is no need to
desingate childhood as largely playtime.
2) Winner-take-all
Globalization means winner-take-all. In basketball, if you can watch
Michael Jordan plays against Shaq, there is less reason to watch 2nd
rate and 3rd rate players. Eventually, first rate players will have
disproportionally large audience and disproportionally large paycheck.
It is somewhat like the best 400 players will have average salary of $2
million per year, and next 400 players will have an average of $50,000
per year. You are 801, you get nothing.
Given the high stake in a winner-take-all environment, the career
process is more a successive selection process rather than a
development process. If one wants to be a violinist, one needs to be
discovered early on so that real teacher will want to take her as a
student.
Consequently, it makes sense to frontload children with more work.
If he or she is successful, he or she can have a whole life of play
time ahead of them. Eighty years old is not a reason not to do bunge
jumping nowadays.
II. Chinese culture
Chinese do see children as part of them.
In contrast, Christian ethics view children as belong to God rahter
than to the parents.
More later.
In article <7kug2v$kp8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Majestic
<hard...@freemail.c3.hu> wrote:
<snip>
>Most of my free time I spent listening stories from the old men in my
>neighborhood. I like listening to stories, stories from old china, stories
>about the Bataan Death March in Burma, and so on....
<snip>
I in no way intend to detract from you argument here, as this is
an issue that concerns me greatly, as I watch many of my friends
going through it and recovering from it. Indeed, the psychological
state that such childhoods induce is an area of great fascination
to me, being in such stark contrast to my own upbringing.
But the Bataan Death March took place in the *Philippines*.
ltl...@mindspring.com
power over their childern. In comparison, Western parents are more let
go. Here, I am talking about two overlapping bell curves with distinct
peaks.
IMO, the difference can be traced to different ways to solve the
problem: what to do after one die. Human being is human becoming. But
it is also human dying. Every human is dying from day one. What is the
meaning of life? What will happen after we die?
Christian-Islams embrace God. Life is a preparation for a more fruitful
and more happy after life in the presence of God.
Traditional Chinese, i.e. Chinese with traditional value OTOH saw
filial piety as the solution.
One component of filial piety is some kind ancestor worship. Basically
it is backward looking. We pray to our ancestors for their blessing. I
believe less and less people are doing this now because it is
considered superstition.
A second component deals with the present. Respect your parent. Don't
get your parent upset. Don't travel far; if travel let your parents
know when will you be back.
A third component deals with the future. The spirit of the third
component can be best illustrated by the story of "The Old Fool Moving
the Mountains."
Briefy, Mr. Old Fool had very good land. But between his land and his
house stood two big and tall mountains. Getting tire of travelling long
distances everyday, one day he decides to dig through the mountains.
Mr. Wise Guy heard the news. He said,"Old Fool, you are old and do not
have much time left. Is it foolish to take up such large project?" Mr.
Old Fool was unperturbed. And he replied,"Old I am. But I have sons. My
sons will have sons and they will have sons and so on and so forth. The
mountains are not growing. It is inevitably that one day a passage will
be dug."
For the chinese embracing the idea of filial peity, their lives are
short. But they will kind of living through their sons and daughters.
This sentiment is expressed very well in a poem by a patriotic poet of
the Southern Sung synasty [loosely paraphrsed]:
Once gone I know all ten thousand things are emptyness;
but still sad for not seeing the nine provinces united.
When the royal army retakes the northern central plain;
don't forget to tell me during the familial sacrifice.
The idea is that. Even though I cannot see certain beautiful things, I
cannot be certain successful persons, if my sons and daughters and
their sons and daughters can see those beautiful things, can be those
successful person, then I have achieved my life goal.
To persuade the sons and daughters to play their part. The Analect
stated the requirement of staying near your parent's grave for three
years. Don't have to take it literally. My interpretation is that sons
and daughters should remember what their parents told them, expected of
them. And somehow integrated their parents's wishes into their life
goal. This is also what expressed in Centrality and Commonality: hsiao
is the skillfulness in expressing other's [thier ancestors'] will.
The feeling of power is more than an illusion. Chinese parents do see
their sons and daughters as part of them. It is exactly this sense of
power. This sense of somehow able to control one's extrapolated future
that gives the Chinese their sense of realness. Their sense that life
is real, meaningful, and fulfilling. In comparison, an after-life is
pale and illusive. After all, no one really know what after life is
like.
They advantage of Chinese outlook is that Chinese parents are willing
to sacrifice a lot for their sons and daughters. This outlook also
contribute to the stability of family through thick and thin. They will
also go to great length try to make their sons and daughters closer to
their ideals. Taking together, Chinese with traditional value can also
be viewed as dedicated to a huge and very long ranged project to
improve a large portion of humanity.
The price? Sons and daughters have less freedom. Authoritative attitude
of Chinese parents toward their sons and daughters also creates another
problem. More than one political scientists had concluded that
democracy depends on how the children are brought up. Democratic
parents beget democratic children. Authoritative parents lead to
children that prefer authoritative government.
In article <7kug2v$kp8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
hard...@freemail.c3.hu wrote:
hard...@freemail.c3.hu
Thank you very much for both of your wonderful replies on 24th and 26th.
I have downloading both of your reply and will read them over and I believe I
can gain a lot from your wisdom.
Thanks again.
Sincerely,
Bob
hard...@freemail.c3.hu
hard...@freemail.c3.hu
Thanks for the reminder.
Aaaah, the peril of typing message online and post it without a second glance.
My mind was thinking of the Battan Death March in the Philippines and the
Death Railrood in Burma but my fingers omitted obviously quite a number of
keystrokes. :(
Anyway, thanks again for the reminder.
Sincerely,
Bob
hard...@freemail.c3.hu
In article <slrn7n6325.e...@quartz.netsync.net>,
Hello...@flying.electric.sex.macines.com (Majestic) wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:47:46 GMT, hard...@freemail.c3.hu
> <hard...@freemail.c3.hu> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >Most of my free time I spent listening stories from the old men in my
> >neighborhood. I like listening to stories, stories from old china, stories
> >about the Bataan Death March in Burma, and so on....
> <snip>
>
> I in no way intend to detract from you argument here, as this is
> an issue that concerns me greatly, as I watch many of my friends
> going through it and recovering from it. Indeed, the psychological
> state that such childhoods induce is an area of great fascination
> to me, being in such stark contrast to my own upbringing.
>
> But the Bataan Death March took place in the *Philippines*.
>
mst
is not just a Chinese thing...although, since there are more Chinese than
any other Asian group, it may appear more prevalent among them.
I can kind of understand the poor (or lower middle class) Asian immigrants
who push their kids to be successful and strive for financial
security...it's important for most parents to see their kids live a more
comfortable life than they have, especially immigrants who suffered much to
acquire a small piece of the American Dream. The measure of security they
possess has come at such a high price, that they can't conceive of their
child earning it without some suffering as well. I disagree, but at least I
can see where they arrive at their viewpoint.
But it puzzles me greatly to see wealthy Asian parents who STILL won't allow
their children to pursue a less lucrative but ultimately more satisfying
profession. I mean, if the family has enough money to invest in trust funds
or whatever, why NOT let the kid be an interior designer or poet? He MIGHT
hit it big, he'll DEFINITELY be able to find SOME sort of job that will
allow him to live in reasonable comfort, PLUS, he's got the security of the
family funds to fall back on if all else fails.
In these cases, I think it's really about parental bragging rights more than
the child's happiness, and that's just sad. Children are not
trophies...hell, even wives shouldn't be trophies, but we'll get into that
some other time.
--
Teri
++++
"Well, since you got here by not thinking, it seems reasonable
to expect that, in order to get out, you must start thinking."
Tock the Watchdog
De mortuis nil nisi bonum.
ltl...@mindspring.com
jimw...@transend.com.tw wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jun 1999 05:04:50 GMT, ltl...@mindspring.com wrote:
> An excellent and thoughtful post. I have one comment, focusing on the
> following:
>
> >The price? Sons and daughters have less freedom. Authoritative
attitude
> >of Chinese parents toward their sons and daughters also creates
another
> >problem. More than one political scientists had concluded
> > that
> >democracy depends on how the children are brought up. Democratic
> >parents beget democratic children. Authoritative parents lead to
> >children that prefer authoritative government.
Chinese sure need a way to balance the parents's and children's need.
>
> One of the preconditions of modern science is a tolerant attitude for
> differences of opinion, and a disdain for authority. Historically, an
> example of this in the West is that the Pope's efforts to prevent
> discussion of a sun-centered universe ultimately failed, as scientists
> ignored this "authority" and relied upon the evidence of their eyes.
>
The Pope is fine and looking better everyday in many people's eyes.
The problem of Western's approach is obvious. Religiion, by nature, is
intolerant. God, cannot be observed, need a lot of persuasion,
sometimes arm-twisting, to maintain its place in the human heart.
I suspect Western countries will see theirs citizens' attitude swing
back and forth between religious fundamentalism and Godless nihilism,
and hedonism.
Right now it is in the middle of the nihilism and hedonism phase.
People have all the talents, but no inner demon to fight. They have to
demonize something external to get a balanced spiritual life. Looks
like you are one of these people.
> An example in the PRC were the CCP's attempts to stamp out
> "non-Marxist" physics. Professor Fang's book called "Break Down the
> Great Wall" discusses this issue.
>
> Ultimately the cultures which encourage creativity are more
> successful. It is no coincidence that modern technology was mostly
> developed in free countries.
It depends on your time frame of history.
> Love, Jim
>
> "Oblivious to look and word
> They pass and see no wonder
> That lightning brilliant as a sword
> Should blaze the path of thunder."
> By Countee Cullen, from "Tableau".
>
p.s soc.culture.taiwan reinstalled
Majestic
>In these cases, I think it's really about parental bragging rights more than
>the child's happiness, and that's just sad. Children are not
>trophies...hell, even wives shouldn't be trophies, but we'll get into that
>some other time.
Or girlfriends for that matter. :P
Back to the parents, I've noticed that this is a touchy issue among
asian-americans in general, and oftentimes even the children, in the
midst of a halfhearted rebellion, will sit back and justify it all
as "respect for their parents" or filial piety is some way.
I've seen very few people actually rebel and do it in a way that
wins the fight for themselves in a favorable way.
hard...@freemail.c3.hu
Hello...@flying.electric.sex.macines.com (Majestic) wrote:
Not even "rebellion" works in many situation.
That girl of my friend sure as hell rebelled when she ran away from home.
IMHO, she didn't like to do dramatic things like that, but she couldn't find
anybody to listen to her sufferings, and she couldn't find any effective way
to communicate with her parents.
Out of my own observation, the "run away" episode hold a valuable lesson to
all, and that is, the children are human beings and they should have been
treated as such.
But unfortunately, I do not think my friend get that message at all. Days
after we have located his girl and returned her back to them, he is still
fuming over the "loss of face" thing.
Why is this "FACE" thing so important to so many Chinese?
I am a Chinese, I do understand the importance of "FACE", but aren't we
overdoing it?
I mean, what is more important? "FACE" or "LIFE"?
What is the use of having "FACE" if the lives of our children are being
ruined?
Please think about it, if you are a parent.
"FACE" is important, I concur. But please, please don't overdo it and let
that "tail" wags the "dog", so to speak.
hard...@freemail.c3.hu
<ter...@homey.com> wrote:
> Thank you for addressing a serious problem in the *Asian*
> community...this is not just a Chinese thing...although, since there are
> more Chinese than any other Asian group, it may appear more
> prevalent among them.
> I can kind of understand the poor (or lower middle class) Asian
> immigrants who push their kids to be successful and strive for financial
> security...it's important for most parents to see their kids live a more
> comfortable life than they have, especially immigrants who suffered
> much to acquire a small piece of the American Dream. The measure
> of security they possess has come at such a high price, that they
> can't conceive of their child earning it without some suffering as well.
> I disagree, but at least I can see where they arrive at their viewpoint.
> But it puzzles me greatly to see wealthy Asian parents who STILL
> won't allow their children to pursue a less lucrative but ultimately more
> satisfying profession. I mean, if the family has enough money to invest
> in trust funds or whatever, why NOT let the kid be an interior designer
> or poet? He MIGHT hit it big, he'll DEFINITELY be able to find SOME
> sort of job that will allow him to live in reasonable comfort, PLUS, he's
> got the security of the family funds to fall back on if all else fails.
> In these cases, I think it's really about parental bragging rights more
> than the child's happiness, and that's just sad. Children are not
> trophies...hell, even wives shouldn't be trophies, but we'll get into that
> some other time.
> --
> Teri
> ++++
> "Well, since you got here by not thinking, it seems reasonable
> to expect that, in order to get out, you must start thinking."
> Tock the Watchdog
> De mortuis nil nisi bonum.
I really hate to say this, but I think one of the basic problem may be that
we have outdone ourselves in the FILIAL PIETY thing --- that we have turn the
whole concept of FILIAL PIETY upside down --- from the original "younger
generation's respect to the elderly" to "younger generation _MUST OBEY_ the
elders".
It is good if we can have a society filled with respects, but the way some of
the parents are doing to their children, they seem to think that their
children are _OWNED_ by them, that they can do whatever they like to the
children.
Worse. The parents often think they are doing what is _BEST_ for their
children, without even understand how their children feel.
I am a Chinese, I believe in the FILIAL PIETY thing. But too much of a good
thing may be bad, and in this case of the pressure-cooker thing, methinks
it's a MISUNDERSTANDING of the true underlying meaning of FILIAL PIETY among
the many Chinese parents to mean their children must obey their wishes or
else....
Is there a way out of this mess? Can we really see the light at the end of
the tunnel?
mat_...@my-deja.com
mat_...@my-deja.com
the role of the parents? Labouring to be best at everything in order
to fulfill the government's aspirations, in the process making
themselves miserable in the eternal chase for the elusive pot of gold.
The Philippino's per capita income must be a fraction of Singapore's,
but I'm willing to bet that he's a lot happier.
If happiness is getting what you want, then the more you want, the more
difficult it will be to achieve happiness. To want for nothing can be
achieved by having everything or not wanting anything in the first
place.
Darwinian Road Kill
I think you'd do a fair bit of good in the world.
Ryan :>
--
"The bird may fly, but hippos still follow the signposts of the wind."
G1 forever!
TF code: AD/A P212