BosNet INTEVIEW: Senator Joseph Biden (D., Delaware)
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EDITOR\'S COMMENT: Bosnet is grateful to Miss Envera Selimovic, RTVBiH journalist, for providing us with this interview. Miss Selimovic conducted the interview with Senator Biden on July 15, 1999.
Washington, July 15, 1999
ENVERA SELIMOVIC: Senator Biden. Thank you for being with us.
JOSEPH BIDEN: My pleasure.
When I say \"Bosnia and Herzegovina,\" what is the first thought that crosses your mind?
Magnificent, beautiful country...and such talented people...and such a pity, such a pity. The country and the people have been scarred, so badly.
Senator Biden, you have been among the strongest supporters of Bosnia. We know your record, but can you tell us a little bit more about yourself?
Well, I\'m often asked why...
...I know you are from Delaware. The motto of your state is \"liberty and independence\"...is it fair to say that passion for justice is in your blood?
Well, it\'s inherited from my parents. My parents raised us in a way that I think the single most defining feature of my notions of political existence...is that...the thing that I hate the most is abuse of power. In the ultimate abuse of power, is virulent nationalism-that takes the form of genocide. That\'s the ultimate abuse of power.
For example, first, I happen to be a Catholic, a Roman Catholic. The first time I ever took my children, my sons, to Europe...and my daughter years later...I took them to Dacau. The first time. My friends thought, \"Now, wait...you get off the plane...you usually go to Paris, you go to London, or you go to wherever.\"
I went to Munich, and got in the car, and drove them, before we went to the hotel...to Dacau. Because I wanted them to understand that the inhumanity that man has visited on other men is endemic in our species. And it can not...it can not...be tolerated. And the only time it ever...ever...takes root, is when the good people remain silent, remain silent.
And what was happening with Milosevic, beginning in 1989, was clear to me...that there was an absolute, clear repetition of the pattern...of hatred and virulence that was being used as a political tool. And that\'s why I got so, I guess, passionately involved in Bosnia. But I also...I got to meet people-Croats, Serbs, and Bosniaks-who I came to love.
I mean they were good people, but finding...What it seemed to me was that the larger events in their lives were causing them to have to make decisions that were counter-intuitive...that they wouldn\'t otherwise make, but they had no choice. And it was like centrifugal force, pulling these good people apart.
And I think, and I know I have been like a \"broken record.\" Repetition after repetition, for the last ten years about why we should be involved. And not many people in my country thought we should be and, I suspect, not very many people in Europe thought we should. But I think, to sum it up, I think we have followed late, although, without the force I would have liked to have seen, early enough. I think we\'ve reached the point where there is a possibility...a little tiny bit of hope...to bend history...just a little bit, just bend it, bend the arc...the arc of history...toward tolerance and integration, as opposed to toward segregation resulting in ultimately, genocide.
Sir, talking about getting involved late...is it fair to say that the newest generation of representatives here, in Congress, is more into the domestic issues? What do you believe is the future of American foreign policy?
You are very astute! I think the single-biggest debate that remains unresolved in the United States of America\'s whether or not we are going to be \'internationalists\' or \'isolationists.\' And, lest people rush too quickly to judge those who think in terms of isolation, it is a natural human instinct. I mean, when I go around the world, when I go throughout Europe, people will say, \"Well we know so much more about your country than you know about ours.\" And I say, \"Yes, of course you do. We\'re 260-million people. You are 10-million, or 8-million, or 5-million...and what happens to you does not directly affect us, but what happens to us affects you.\" So don\'t be so...self-righteous about our country.
The truth is, the American people are like every other person in the world. The want to attend to their \"fig tree\"...they want to \"sit under their shaded tree\"...they want to have their family, and their home...and their security. And that\'s the place it all begins.
It is almost counter-intuitive for people to reach out....and solve other people\'s problems. But we have learned over the last century...a miserable century when you think about it...the last hundred years, in Europe. I mean, miserable. The millions and millions and millions of people killed...in the name of self-righteousness. Whether it was WWI, WWII, but what happens is that the United States has learned that every time that we disengage completely, we end up being engaged in ways that we don\'t want to be engaged.
Because, I\'m going to say something that is going to get me in trouble: There are some fine, wonderful leaders in Europe, but I don\'t think that Europe has reached the point of \"political maturation\"...where they are able to solve their problems without a bit of an outside catalyst-the United States. We don\'t solve the problems for Europe, but we are a \"\'European\' power.\"
Had, for example, we disengaged, completely, in Bosnia...and said that \"was a \'European\' problem,\" as President Bush said it was...this would never be resolved.
Two things, sir. You said you hate to see abuse of power. Is it fair to say that Americans sometimes are tending to use their power, having in mind that America is the only remaining - superpower?
Yes. Yes they are. If I can attempt to make an analogy. There are two ways in which power is abused. ...I used to be taught by the nuns, who would say, \"The road to hell is paved with good intentions.\" But it matters whether you start out with good intentions or bad intentions.
I challenge anyone in Europe, or the Balkans, to name me any country that\'s willing to put their young women and young men \'on the line,\' their blood on the line, for NO territorial gain, NO economic gain, and NO political gain...none. What the Hell do we...what politically, economically, or in terms of territory, do we gain in the Balkans?
So, what happens, though, is that sometimes we start off trying to do what we think is the right thing and we mess it up. We go too far. We don\'t go far enough. We abuse our power...in the sense that we do more, or less, than we should. But... the truth of the matter is...at least, in Europe; those times when it has occurred have been as a consequence of our frustration...that no one else is doing anything.
We, in fact, for example, in the War in Kosovo...we did say, \"Alright, this is it. We\'re going to bomb this site. Now let\'s get this straight.\" The reason we did is because no one would make a decision. It was chaos. [President] Chirac was sitting back and saying, \"Well this target we can\'t do!\" And so and so would say, well, \"This target we can\'t do.\" And it was paralysis.
So, in a sense, we exercise our power as the largest, most powerful, nation in the world, militarily. But, it didn\'t start off that way. Had we sat down and said, \"Alright, we have a game plan.\" That wouldn\'t have occurred. So...America makes mistakes, but I would say most of the mistakes we make are mistakes of the heart. They are not, mostly, mistakes based upon our avarice, our greed, our desire to dominate.
Senator Biden, you were among the youngest senators in American history...and most influential, not only among Democrats, when it comes to foreign policy. What conclusions should foreign countries draw about the relationship between Congress and the Administration, especially with regard to the Balkans?...Was the Congress in a real position, let us say on sending ground troops, or was their animosity towards [President] Clinton, even though they say it wasn\'t personal?
There was both. The truth of the matter is there were both. One of the disturbing things that has occurred is that our politics in American become more partisan. You know, admittedly, we don\'t settle our policies with a gun. But we have begun to seek political advantage relative to one another in a way that\'s counter-productive.
One of the things that has happened is: the Republican Party, which has historically been, this century, a party of isolation...and the Democratic Party has historically been the party of engagement-united on one common theme. And that was opposition to communism. And that was viewed as the great threat. It was a unifying element in American foreign policy.
When the Berlin Wall came down, when communism...when Khruschev banging his shoe on the table was no longer anything but a distant memory...as a possibility. What happened was, that unifying element of American foreign policy began to fade. And the Republicans began to move back toward their instinct for isolation...their instinct to build \"Fortress America\"...not all...clear exceptions.
And the Democratic Party was caught between those who learned, the quote, \"Lessons of Vietnam\"...and did not want to be engaged...and those who were internationalists who thought we should be engaged. And so we are going through a period of transition.
On top of that period of transition, came this virulent, personal, dislike on the part of many Republicans for President Clinton. It was...it is... palpable. It is deep. And so, one of the reasons why I believe that, at the end of the day, if we needed to send ground troops, to Kosovo, we would have had the votes to do that. It\'s because I still believe, if that was absolutely required, the Congress would have supported the President.
But, since the air war was working, since the outcome may be what it was, it gave the opposition the luxury of being opposition for opposition\'s sake. That\'s not to say, and I\'ll end with this, that many Republicans do not fundamentally disagree with our involvement in the Balkans.
For example, Senator Nichols, the number-two Republican in the Senate...He truly believes that Mr. Milosevic has the right to do, in his country, whatever he wishes to do in his country. And Kosovo is in his country. And if it is genocide, so be it. It is his country. And that we have no right to cross an international boundary to stop that. And so, there are those who think we should not be involved. But much of it was, also, just politics.
Let me ask you some questions about President Clinton...and more about Bosnia, which is most important for me. It seems you are close to the President. Senator, do you believe his gamble against military and conservative thinking, both in Bosnia and in Kosovo, will result in long-term success?
I do. Let me put it another way: Had he not done this, I think it would have been guaranteed failure. Let\'s put something in focus. You know better than I, that Bosnia has a long way to go. That Dayton is not being fully implemented. But you also know, when you call home, you are not as likely to be worried that your mother, your father, your aunt, your uncle has recently been shot. You are not worried that, as they walk down, after work, and sit at a cafe on the street, in Sarajevo, that there is not going to be a sniper up in the hills that is going to shoot them.
So, sometimes, we measure success in ways that are unrealistic. It\'s been a great success so far in that, at minimum, at minimum, people are not dying.
And let me give you one example. In 1993, I tried to get into Srebrenica, just before the massacre. I met with Mr. Milosevic in his office in Belgrade. I refused to meet with him with TV cameras. I refused to meet with him during the day...because I did not want to legitimize him. I did not want to, in any way, suggest that he was legitimate. But I met with him, in his office, for almost three-and-a-half hours. And midway through the conversation, in his office, he looked at me when we were arguing, and he said, \"What do you think of me?\"
And I said, \"I think you are a God-damned war criminal!...and you should be tried as one.\"
And with that, Mr. Karadzic came in. The man who Milosevic said he had no control over. And he picked up the phone and called at 10:30 at night, Karadzic...who came running up the stairs, out of breath....and sitting down with me.
And what was clear when I came back...I wrote a report, in 1993, to the President. And I said, \"Mr. President, I have to come and see you...because our policy, with regard to Bosnia, is a mistake...the arms embargo is a mistake. The arms embargo just solidifies the disproportionate advantage that the Serbs have. Two: we should use airpower to stop the VJ from coming across the Drina.\"
And so, the report became known as \"Lift (meaning lift the arms embargo) and Strike.\" The President of the United States listened to me for almost an hour-and-a-half. And on the spot, he said, \"I agree with you.\"
But...
Not \"But...\" His Secretary of State did not agree with me. We walked out of his office, into the Press Room. And as we were walking into the Press Room, he put his arm out to stop me, and he said, \"One question, Joe. What year was the Battle of Pristina?\" And I said, \"1389, Mr. President, but it is not relevant, you don\'t have to know that. You just have to know what is happening now.\"
Here\'s a man...the reason I tell you the story...Here\'s a man that\'s usually able to command all the facts. He\'s a brilliant guy. I mean just raw gray matter[brains].
You are talking about Clinton?
I\'m talking about Clinton. |Raw, gray matter. He is one of the brightest people I have ever met.
But what he had to do, was what is very difficult to a President. He had to run counter[against] to all the conventional wisdom. I was the only one telling him, \"Get involved!\"
Every editorial in America was saying, \"Don\'t get involved.\" Every \'smart guy,\' all the \'big thinkers\' were saying, \"Don\'t get involved.\" The Bush Administration, [former Secretary of State] Larry Eagleberger, said, \"Don\'t get involved.\" But the President, to his credit, not because I told him, but because once he saw what was happening, followed his instincts.
But the reason why it was slow, is that he was pushing against an entire foreign policy establishment. Here and in Europe, that said, \"No.\"
Two battles at the same time...among the Administration, among people at the Pentagon, the State Department, and of course Congress...and plus Europe...
...and in Paris, and Bonn, and in London, and every capitol in Europe.
But still, he is the President...
He is the President...and he finally convinced people. He finally did it. No one else did it! It wasn\'t done by Helmut Kohl, when he was Chancellor[of Germany]. It wasn\'t done by [French President] Chirac. It wasn\'t done by anybody, but Bill Clinton.
Now, we can sit here and say, \"He was slow. It didn\'t go as quickly as we wanted. He was tentative, sometimes.\" And that is true. \"But, ...But\" He, against the public opinion of the United States said, \"I am going to use American power.\"
Put it another way. Had America not used power, its airpower, its military, do you think one European troop would have gone into Bosnia or into Kosovo?
Would you like me to compliment you?
No...No, I\'m not looking for a compliment for him. My point is this: What we are talking about here, as you know better than I do, ...what we are talking about here is reversing eight centuries of history. And it\'s very hard to overcome the conventional wisdom.
Yes, definitely. With regard to the President\'s legacy, how would you characterize the role of Bosnia and of Kosovo?
I think it is the defining moment for him. I wrote him a long memorandum, just before Milosevic capitulated. And he was down in Florida. And I said, \"Mr. President, your legacy will be determined more by how this conflict turns out than by any thing else...any scandal, any great success in the economy...\" Because, look, had Milosevic prevailed, the fate of Europe is sealed for another decade. Sealed in chaos.
And he called me at 11:30 at night, at home. And he said, \"Joe, I got your memo. I promise you, I will stay the course!\"
I was worried because so many people were getting shaky about, \"Oh, I don\'t know...should we, shouldn\'t we???\" The press in this country, as you know as a press person was, was, relentless, in saying, \"This was a failure.\" And the Republican opposition was saying, Democrats were starting to go, \"Oh, I don\'t know.\" But he stayed the course. And so, I think it is his legacy.
His legacy is, that for the first time in the Twentieth Century, the world said, \"Where we can affect it, we will not tolerate the genocidal behavior...in, or out, of one\'s country.\"
Talking about the President, more often we hear about the so-called Clinton Doctrine. Does it exist, or is it yet to come?
It is like all doctrines, from the Truman Doctrine, to every other doctrine...it\'s in the making. Let me tell you what the elements of the doctrine are. The elements of the doctrine are, and these are my words, but I don\'t think he would disagree with me…the President.
Number one. There has to be a moral justification for the use of force.
Secondly, it has to be in the national interest, the security interest of the United States to engage American forces, in addition to having a moral dimension. Thirdly, there has to be the capacity to get the job done. And fourthly, there has to be the \'will\' to do it in terms of our allies.
Let me make a comparison. Often, African-Americans, who are the strongest source of my support, politically, in my state...they\'ll say, \"Well Joe, more people died in Rwanda, more people were killed there...and Joe, you are one of us; Why are you pushing so hard to save people in Kosovo, in Sarajevo, in Srebrenica, in Tuzla, ...why are you doing that?\"
Really...What is it about your life that causes you to be so passionate?
Well, because of the history of Europe. The history of Europe, as we have seen in the Twentieth Century, ...with Hitler...had...much of it is shameful...in innocent women and children... I took [former Senator] Bob Dole to Sarajevo. I came back and I told everybody here, \"Look, the Serbs were sitting up in the hills...over the old section of Sarajevo...and they are sniping at children. They are only shooting children for the express purpose of intimidating their parents to leave.\"
No one believed me. No one believed me!
So I took Bob Dole, or Bob Dole took me, ...it was the fiftieth anniversary of NATO and we detoured...and I took him to a hospital, a major hospital in Sarajevo. And as we are going through, first, the Muslim section, there are these sheets...and bed spreads...hanging from lines across streets.
And he, like everyone else, looked and thought: Well, is that because they are drying their clothes? And I said, \"No, that\'s so little Sasha can move from her mother\'s house to her grandmother\'s house without being shot.\" And then we went into the hospital. And there were only about fifteen people in the whole hospital.
There was a raven-haired beauty of a young girl, laying there, about thirteen years old. And I sat on her bed, and I held her hand. And Bob Dole stood at the foot of the bed. And she was a magnificently beautiful child. And we had a neural-surgeon with us, who spoke English. And I talked to her. I don\'t speak Serbo-Croatian...I talked to her and I just held her hand.
And she looked at me, but beyond me. And I said, \"Why is she not looking at me?\" And he[the surgeon] said, \" Well the bullet went through here...and severed the optic nerve.\" It was at that point that Dole, and others there, realized that this is hideous.
Children are often victims of war...the collateral damage. But whenever they become the object of the war, there is an inhumane system in place. And when we can affect that ...when we can affect that...we must! And if we don\'t it is certain that it will spread.
And so, the Clinton Doctrine says, a) Is there a moral imperative? b) Is there a U.S. interest? c) Do we have the ability to affect the outcome?, and d) Do we have the will without allies?
And I believe that\'s the doctrine.
Senator Biden, now, looking back on what has happened since the Dayton Agreement was signed, would you agree with critics who say that the only real success was stopping the war?
The answer is...yes and no. We have to crawl before we can walk. When your country is devastated...250-thousand people killed...millions of people displaced...stopping war was the first, essential, step...to begin reconstruction. The rate of return is slow. The rate or reconstruction is even slower. There are people, I suspect, like your parents, who return, for the first time, to where they are from, and find nothing but rubble...nothing but devastation.
But a second thing has happened. For the first time, since the Dayton Accord was signed, the leaders of Bosnia-Croat, Bosniak, and Serb-are now...the leadership is beginning to realize there is no future in Belgrade. There is no future in Zagreb.
There is a future in Bosnia...because the bombing and the implementation of NATO\'s policy in Serbia made it much less attractive to think that you could have Federation splitting.
I predict to you there will be now an added emphasis on cooperation because you will begin to see...the people of Bosnia will begin to see...what happens in Bulgaria, in Hungary, in Croatia, Slovenia, in Kosovo...as the European countries get together in the EU and commit 20, 30, 40-billion dollars to rebuild the region. To have a new approach.
And what\'s going to happen is the people of your country are going to have to make a basic decision. They are either going to conclude that they live together, or they will get no help. They will get no help. I emphasize: They will get no help!
Just like the Serbian people, I predict to you, will overthrow Milosevic by Spring. Because, let me make it clear: NO HELP TO SERBIA...NO HELP TO SERBIA...AS LONG AS MILOSEVIC IS THERE!
So, I realize it is incredibly difficult...as I walk through the streets of Brcko...and in any other place in the Republika Srpska...or in the Federation...and see the devastation...it\'s hard for me to understand how people can have the will and perseverance to continue. But, I also remember the devastating films of Berlin and Dresden and all of Europe after WWII.
And a mighty, mighty, mighty democracy grew up. The same can happen in Bosnia.
I have to admit it sounds good, but Bosnians feel that they are no longer a matter of interest. What do you think needs to happen to bring Bosnia back into the spotlight?
The political leadership agreeing to implement Dayton. They will be the shadows if the political leadership does not implement Dayton. Dodik is not able to increase the rate of return in the Republika Srpska of Croats and Muslims...in fact he\'ll be left behind. That will happen.
They will be left...we will not...we will not help!
You are talking about politicians. What, in your view, should the people of Bosnia and Herzegovina be doing to secure their future?...Dr. Kissinger says that partition is a logical outcome for Bosnia...
I think Dr. Kissinger has been wrong. He was wrong in 1990. He was wrong in \'95. And I, respectfully suggest, he is wrong in 1999.
There is no way that you can partition, in my view, Bosnia...without setting a precedent that the definition of nationhood is solely based on nationalities. And if you do that, how do you explain what we do with the Hungarian minority in Romania? With the Turkish minority in Bulgaria?
I am going to say something that you are going to be offended by: You must become more like Americans.
I just, this last Friday, was with five students from the Balkans. Three of whom were Serbs and two Albanians. I was playing on the beach with them. They were talking to one another.
We inter-marry in this country. It\'s a different thing. No one has recently shot my mother or father. But the attitude....there is no future for Bosnia that is not one that, over time, does not contemplate a united Bosnia. There is no future for it.
Senator Biden, you know that the Belgrade regime was the guarantor of the Serbian part of Dayton, President Milosevic in particular. Now that he is an indicted war criminal, what do you think will happen to him, and consequently to the peace process...Should Dayton be reopened?
Dayton should not be reopened. The guarantors of Dayton will be the European powers. The guarantors of Dayton and the Serb part of the Dayton Accords will be the Serbs in Bosnia. Because....they have no alternative! There is no alternative to move Belgrade. There is no alternative. The only power that existed in terms of them being able to prevail, unfairly, is that Belgrade sided with them.
Belgrade can\'t do a thing. And if Belgrade and a future leader attempt to move...then NATO would move on them.
So, your future is in your hands. Your future...it\'s incredibly difficult. It\'s going to be painful. Just like it was painful for the French and Germans, ultimately ever to live together. And they are living together. Just as it was painful for it to happen throughout Europe over this century. It\'s going to be painful. But it is hopeful!
Here, you have, for the first time, all the focus of the Western world on the Balkans. They are prepared to say, \"We will stay involved.\"
Senator Biden, in conclusion, whenever you are talking about the Balkans, you are talking with great familiarity about Izetbegovic and Silajdzic...Do you consider them friends first, and in short, what is the overall American impression of Balkan leaders, especially Milosevic and Tudjman?
The overall impression about Milosevic is that he is a criminal...and should be tried as one...and we should not deal with him.
My impression of Tudjman is, were he able to have his own way, he would not be helpful. He is not a helpful player in my view.
My impression of Haris Siladjic is colored by the fact that I consider him a close, personal, friend. And so, I can\'t objectively speak to him.
My impression of President Izetbegovic, who I have known for a long time, is that he has to be more forceful in keeping the Bosniak end of the commitment.
And that one of the things that happens...it\'s a little bit like...how can I say it...If each party thinks the other party is not going to give at all, then they don\'t give anything. Somebody has to have the courage to move, first. And I think with the demise of Milosevic, the end of the Serbian Regime, and the occupation of Kosovo, I think a reality is descending on your country that the answer is not going to be found in domination on the battlefield.
Since you are talking to the Bosnian audience, to the Bosnians, what is your best guess about their future?
My best guess is that, by the year 2010, we\'re going to be holding another Olympics in Sarajevo. That\'s my best guess.
Senator Biden, I thank you very much.
Thank You.
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