inter-racial dating
Jeff Sedayao
[some stuff deleted]
>But what about between one Asian culture and another?
>I'm Chinese, and most of the Asian American people I've met, whether
>they be Chinese, Korean, Japanese, have around the same cultural
Don't forget Filipino! :-) Some people may find it hard to believe, but there
are more Filipinos in California than there are Chinese. This might be true
for the US as a whole, but I have no real numbers on this.
>background as me. I know many who do not speak their "native tongue"
>(as my parents would put it), and the same ideals are stressed by
>their parents to them. However, my parents definitely want me to
>marry a Chinese male, seeing that as the only possibility of agreeing
>culturally.
>I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, but I would just like to ask
>the question "Exactly what *is* the cultural difference between
>various Asian cultures and does it make a difference?"
I suppose it depends on what cultures you are comparing. Some of the obnoxious
"model minority" articles talk about a "Common Confucian heritage", but this
is not applicable to Asian Indian cultures and most Filipinos. Filipinos are
culturally very different. 90% are Roman Catholic. The Philippines was
colonized by Spain for some 300 years and then by the US for another 50.
The people and the culture are a mix Spanish, Malay, Chinese, aboriginal, and
American. I would say that culturally, Filipinos are closer to Hispanics
than other Asians.
As for dating and marriage between different Asian cultures, I guess some
matches work out, and some don't, depending on the people. I have met a few
people who have a Japanese and a Chinese parent. I know of a Chinese/Filipino
marriage that ended in divorce. I know a Filipino/Asian Indian couple that
have been married for quite awhile, and a Japanese/Burmese couple that is
doing well. It's hard to make generalizations on whether relationships
work out, since so much depends on the couple.
My brother's girlfriend is Chinese, and no set of parents seem to object.
It's funny; both sets of parents do have their little nicknames for them in
Chinese and Tagalog. I figure that my parents don't object because
a) Filipinos and Chinese have been intermarrying for centuries, and culturally
this is no real shock, and b) they would rather have him marry a Chinese
girl than a white girl. I would guess that her parents probably think
along the lines of reason b.
Since they are going to be married soon, the topic
of comparative wedding customs often comes up. This could be a
general problem in weddings between different Asian cultures. Filipino
weddings tend to be big. Extra people called "sponsors" are in the wedding
party. Like hispanics, Filipinos expect the groom is expected to pay for
the whole affair. I don't know how well some of the customs will go over
with her family. They will just have to work it out.
> -Stephanie Tai-
--
Jeff Sedayao Disclaimer: My opinions, not those of
Intel Corporation my employers
{oliveb,hplabs,decwrl,amdcad,pur-ee,qantel}!intelca!mipos3!td2cad!jsedayao
jsedayao%td2cad.i...@relay.cs.net
Bill Chu
>But what about between one Asian culture and another?
>I'm Chinese, and most of the Asian American people I've met, whether
>they be Chinese, Korean, Japanese, have around the same cultural
>(as my parents would put it), and the same ideals are stressed by
>their parents to them. However, my parents definitely want me to
>marry a Chinese male, seeing that as the only possibility of agreeing
>culturally.
>
>I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, but I would just like to ask
>the question "Exactly what *is* the cultural difference between
>various Asian cultures and does it make a difference?"
I think there are more cultural similarities between, say, a 2nd
generation Japanese-American and a 2nd generation Chinese-American
than between a 2nd generation Chinese-American and a 1st generation
Chinese-American. As far as what your parents tell you to do, just
remember that parents are parents, and that they are not rational
human beings :-).
> -Stephanie Tai-
-- Bill
----------------------------------------------------------------------
William Chu ARPA Internet: c...@caf.mit.edu
MIT Microsystems Technology UUCP: {harvard,rutgers,seismo}
Laboratory, 39-655 !mit-eddie!mit-caf!chu
Cambridge, MA 02139 Phone: (617)253-0722
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee
|There was once a story on the net about an Asian man who was married to a white
|woman who later betrayed him (by sleeping with white man or men) and
^^^^^
|putting him in court for "kidnapping" her daughter because he hid the
|daughter from her after having learned of her practice. I can hardly
|imagine the woman felt it any painful when they got divorced after
|all that swinging with other man (or men), but I most certainly see
|vivid pictures of the anger and humiliation the husband must've
|undergone.
Is it any different if the unfaithful wife "slept with" (you DO mean
"had sex with", right?) other men who were not White? I would think
that most husbands would get angry at unfaithful wives. As most
wives would with unfaithful husbands.
Timothy J. Lee
>the question "Exactly what *is* the cultural difference between
>various Asian cultures and does it make a difference?"
>
I think that cultural differences between various Asian cultures would
take many books to explain.
Among Asian-Americans, it depends on how "Americanized" the people in
question are. The more "Americanized" they are, the fewer cultural
differences they will have that are based on their ancestral cultures.
Indeed, such people will have predominantly American cultural values.
Ken Chin-Purcell
Keywords: culture
Reply-To: k...@msc.umn.EDU
Organization: Minnesota Supercomputer Center
In article <16...@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu>,
> One reason why the are more white men/Asian women couples versus Asian
> men/white women couples is because many people believe the Asian women
> to be a delicate flower of the orient who is subservient to the needs of
> her master. This may motivate white men to want to date Asian women.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !!!!!
(Wiping the tears from my eyes, climbing back into my chair....)
I _must_ show this to my wife (the Chin in Chin-Purcell).
Me: "See! Right here, in print! *subservient* What's the deal?"
She: "The deal is you're still cooking dinner tonight." (or some such :-)
I just don't see these asian stereotypes being valid in America.
e.g., My wife's family has been in America twice as long
as mine. And we just came back from Hong Kong - visiting _my_ relatives.
I think economic status and education are much bigger factors. This
was the litmus test with my wife's family: "What are your plans?"
"What do your parents do?"
-- Ken [ aka: k...@msc.umn.edu (612) 626-1340 ]
Gary L Dare
>
>I wonder if the European immigrants have that same experience.
>I would assume that they would be more tolerable of inter-racial
>dating as well as marriages.
If you're speaking of recent immigrants from Europe, I would think
maybe not. When you look at the prejudice against East Indians in
England, Arabs in France or Turkish in West Germany, I don't expect
the people who come from North America to be any different on this
issue. If anything, living in North America would make people more
tolerant in the long run (like maybe *generations*...).
Even among those of white blood in the the recent past, distinction
was made by nationality. Heaven help the son or daughter of a rich
New England or English Canadian WASP family if they married someone
of Polish Catholic extraction! - You get the picture!
My parents best friends in Winnipeg had horrific problems when they
got married in the 50's; Alec is French-Canadian (but Anglophone)
while Mary's folks were Ukrainian. So their ancestors where from
different parts of Europe and of different Catholic persuations -
and the families raised holy hell for months!
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare > g...@eevlsi.ee.columbia.EDU
June 24: Happy St. Jean Baptiste! > g...@cunixd.cc.columbia.EDU
July 1st: Happy Canada Day! > g...@cunixc.BITNET
Lui Sieh
(Cario Lam) asks the interesting question of whether or not other people
have had the experience of ethnic pressure to marry within the ethnic
group.
Answer:
Sure. Specifically, anyone who is from an immigrant family from the
Asian cultures (read: East Asia, Southeast Asia, the Indian
sub-continent etc) probably experienced it a lot. I wonder if the
European immigrants have that same experience. I would assume that they
would be more tolerable of inter-racial dating as well as marriages.
Does anyone like to enlighten me on it?
-Lui
ARPA: ls2r+...@andrew.cmu.edu BITNET: ls2r%andrew@cmccvb
UUCP: ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!ls2r+
Disclaimer: Any inadvertent references to Chinese is accidental. These
opinions may or may not reflect the author's true feelings.
Rudolph R. Zung
>From: ls...@andrew.cmu.edu (Lui Sieh)
>
>In article <114...@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> dated 7-Jul-89, cl...@bones.Sun.COM
>(Cario Lam) asks the interesting question of whether or not other people
>have had the experience of ethnic pressure to marry within the ethnic
>group.
>
>Answer:
>
>Sure. Specifically, anyone who is from an immigrant family from the
>Asian cultures (read: East Asia, Southeast Asia, the Indian
>sub-continent etc) probably experienced it a lot. I wonder if the
>European immigrants have that same experience. I would assume that they
>would be more tolerable of inter-racial dating as well as marriages.
Definitely. My mother ideally would want me to marry a Chinese girl, but
my mother also knows that I've been away from home too long (I left
home at 13 years old and went to a boarding school) for her to be able
to influence my life that much, and also she believes she can trust me
enough for me to be able to make up my own mind and life, so now she just
hopes that I marry a decent girl.
Does not Jewish parents want their kids to marry other Jewish kids?
...Rudy
InterNet: rz...@andrew.cmu.edu All I want is an
BITnet : rz02+@andrew all-expense paid
UUCP : ...!{ucbvax, harvard}!andrew.cmu.edu!rz02+ life.
BELLnet : (412) 681-4237 | 0100 < time in (EDT, DST) < 0800
USMnet : CMU Box 231 \ Pittsburgh PA 15213
Tastes filling; less great. Roaches, and spiders, and ants, ohmy!
Rudolph R. Zung
Norm Matloff
>all over this racist society. As their cultural tradition, Asian people
>tend to look for a long term, probably lifetime, relationship in
>marriage which, if fails later, would be more painful than most American
>people would take it.
The key word here is "tradition" -- which is rapidly fading. Divorce
is getting MUCH more common in Asia. A newspaper article in the World
Journal (Taiwan newspaper published in the U.S.) last year claimed that
Taiwan has the largest rate of increase in divorce rate WORLDWIDE. From
what I know of Hong Kong, I think HK is not far beyond Taiwan in this
regard. I think the divorce rate in Japan has increased a lot too.
>There was once a story on the net about an Asian man who was married to a white
>woman who later betrayed him (by sleeping with white man or men) and
>putting him in court for "kidnapping" her daughter because he hid the
>daughter from her after having learned of her practice. I can hardly
>imagine the woman felt it any painful when they got divorced after
>all that swinging with other man (or men), but I most certainly see
>vivid pictures of the anger and humiliation the husband must've
>undergone.
I personally know a number of Asian/Asian couples in which one spouse
or the other has had affairs. And in most of these cases I am know of
personally, the WIFE was the unfaithful one. I used to hold the cultural
stereotype that you seem to have here, and thus used to be shocked when
I saw these things. Not any more.
>else. What about the fact that most American couples keep seperate
>bank accounts? How many American women really know how much money
>their husbands have? Such has not been known to my ears as far as
>Asian couples are concerned.
I don't know where you get this idea. I would say just the opposite.
I know a number of (immigrant) Chinese/Chinese couples in which the men
are keeping money from their wives, either in secret bank accounts or
bank accounts held by the men's parents. All this is of course in
violation of California law. And the women in the cases I know
put up with it! [One of them is now considering divorce.]
I think that stereotypes are useful, provided one does not overapply
them, and provided one verifies that there is some truth to them.
In my experience, the stereotypes listed above are either out of
date or were not valid in the first place.
By the way, I wonder if anyone has any real statistics on the
divorce rate in Asian/non-Asian couples. Among such couples that
I know (perhaps 25), I know of only one divorce -- and that
couple later REmarried and now have 2 kids!
Norm
Piercarlo Grandi
However, my parents definitely want me to
marry a Chinese male, seeing that as the only possibility of agreeing
culturally.
I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, but I would just like to ask
the question "Exactly what *is* the cultural difference between
various Asian cultures and does it make a difference?"
This is an interesting point. Inter cultural relationships can be
quite difficult, as a lot of social bahaviour is based on
assumptions and expectations. I have had my difficulties with
girls from a different environment (me urbanite, they country) in
my own nation...
As to the relationship between Asian/"white" males and females, I would
like to point out to a dissimetry in their cultural attitudes that
has so far been overlooked.
One point I have often heard from Asian girls is:
Asian boys are too conservative wrt the role of women, and
while "white" boys are much more progressive.
On the part of Asian boys:
"White" girls are not raised in a proper and decent way...
On the part of "white" girls:
Asian boys tend to have a cave-man's attitude to girls.
The idea that Asian males can be expected to have a much more
conservative attitude to girls than "whites" might well help
explain why Asian girls find it easier/preferable to date "white"
boys than is for Asian boys to date white girls.
--
Piercarlo "Peter" Grandi | ARPA: pcg%cs.abe...@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Dept of CS, UCW Aberystwyth | UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!aber-cs!pcg
Penglais, Aberystwyth SY23 3BZ, UK | INET: p...@cs.aber.ac.uk
alice!llf
In article <26...@mace.cc.purdue.edu ( ) writes:
> tend to look for a long term, probably lifetime, relationship in
> marriage which, if fails later, would be more painful than most American
> people usually don't assume the possibility of divorce when they
> get married to someone, or they simply wouldn't marry this person.
> In other words, they take it more seriously than most Americans.
This is incredibly insulting. To me as an Asian-AMERICAN, and to me as a
person struggling against racism. You are explicitly saying that
non-Asian-Americans get married with the idea that they will get divorced
later, have no committment, or take marriage less seriously than Asians.
Not only is that not true, but it is a stereotype commonly bandied about
in the Asian and Asian-American communities. If you are really concerned
about things like quotas keeping Asians out of colleges, and Asian-Americans
being discriminated against in any walk of life, then you should realize
that you are guilty of the behavior you protest.
When you throw the trite "American's get divorced more often" at others,
realize that Asians in the USA and Asian-Americans also contribute to that
divorce rate.
> ... all that swinging with other man (or men), but I most certainly see
> vivid pictures of the anger and humiliation the husband must've ...
You are using one bad person to condem an entire group of people. How would
you like it if I said "I knew a woman who's Asian husband regularily beat
her. Therefore, don't marry an Asian man, they are all wife-abusers"?
> ..... What about the fact that most American couples keep seperate
> bank accounts? How many American women really know how much money
> their husbands have? .... Asian couples are concerned.
What does having seperate bank accounts to do with the divorce rate?
His and her bath towels also correlate with higher divorce rates? How
does knowing how much your partner have in their bank account correlate
with divorce rate? Do you get the same effect if the man doesn't know
how much money his wife has? This is ridiculous. Not to mention racist
and sexist.
> Indeed, I find white women very attractive. But I wouldn't marry one.
> I like to socialize with them or date them. But I can't see
> them as being my wife. ....
This is insulting, too.
> .... I came from did not experience the excitement of the
> sexual revolution, and it's too late for me to learn that. Maybe that's
I don't think that the "sexual revolution" has anything to do with this
either.
> Please notice that I have freqently used the word "most" or "many",
> meaning that I assume there are always exceptions, you, for example.
You are using the specific to condem the general. It's supposed to work
the other way around.
Lynda
Lui Sieh
alice!llf) writes:
> In article <26...@mace.cc.purdue.edu ( ) writes:
> > tend to look for a long term, probably lifetime, relationship in
> > marriage which, if fails later, would be more painful than most
> American
> > people would take it. This, in my opinion, is simply because Asian
> > people usually don't assume the possibility of divorce when they
> > get married to someone, or they simply wouldn't marry this person.
> > In other words, they take it more seriously than most Americans.
> This is incredibly insulting. To me as an Asian-AMERICAN, and to me as a
> person struggling against racism. You are explicitly saying that
> non-Asian-Americans get married with the idea that they will get divorced
> later, have no committment, or take marriage less seriously than Asians.
That's a good point that I'm sure a lot of Chinese (and probably most
East Asians) people don't quite consider. BTW, I'm restricting it to
Chinese since the original author was speaking of Chinese though he
didn't say it explicitly (I couldn't retrace it sorry). I don't presume
that other Asian cultures behave similarly though they may.
I would though like to rewrite the original author's view that is more
"objective".
Chinese families may find that divorce is a possibiilty though not an
option because of the traditional social stigma attached to divorce. So
therefore, divorce or the strength of marriages can not be determined
without taking into consideration the social aspects of marriage within
the context of Chinese culture/society. Likewise a comparison of
American or Western marriage institutions and Chinese or Far Eastern
marriage institutions would be a comparison of apples and oranges. And
to the debate, it would be as useful as green mold.
Other Asian cultures may have the same attitudes as well though I
wouldn't know too much about that.
I believe that Lynda correctly pointed out the idea of Asians taking
marriage more seriously than Westerners is a bit bogus. Like I
mentioned above, people tend to think that way because they are mixing
apples and oranges when making the comparison. And another reason that
people would think that way is because stereotypes are sometimes based
on some factual observation and people then over-generalize to form a
stereotype.
However, the point that the original author was trying to explain was
how is it then that Asians in general do not have divorces nearly as
often as Westerners? This is a fact and not a fiction. Certainly, one
reason is the cultural one. That is the social stigma of divorce in
China and maybe other Asian countries is so great a shame to the family
that divorce is not an option though it may be a possibility in the
minds of the parties concerned. In the West and America particularly,
divorce has lost a lot of the stigma that it once had and people do not
think twice about it since it has become so common place. However, that
is *not* to translate to say that Americans do not take marriages as
seriously as the Chinese.
The original author I believe made the error in making certain
suppositions that Lynda decided to blast at and is something that
shouldn't be missed because the points were subtle in nature.
-Lui
ARPA: ls...@andrew.cmu.edu
BITNET: ls2r%andrew@cmccvb
UUCP: ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!ls2r
Dwight Joe
$...
$regard. I think the divorce rate in Japan has increased a lot too.
$...
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... Last I read in 1988 (I believe that
the magazine was "Fortune".), the divorce rate in Japan was 1.0% or just
a tinsie winsie more than that.
By comparison, the average divorce rate for Americans, last I read, was
50.0%.
I hope that the PRC models or allows Japan to model their society in
the image of the Japanese beacon. The prime benefactors will be
the children in the PRC. In my opinion, the people who suffer the
most in a divorce are the children.
Timothy J. Lee
| Unfortunately, this is not the only manifestation of power
|differences. Power can be physical, mental, cultural, political, and
|economic. For example, the Asian-American male is commonly stereotyped as
|being effeminate and womanly. Asian-American men are viewed as being meek,
|weak, submissive, unattractive and sexless. It is unlikely that white
|women will be attracted to men they view as effeminate, thus these
|relationships are less common.
Where did the "effeminate" stereotype come from? I've heard of the "brain",
"foreigner", "nerd", "kung fu master", "all the same", and "Japanese cars
stealing jobs" stereotypes.
| These stereotypes are subconsciously held by not only other
|Americans but also Asian-Americans. Thus we have the preference of many
|Asian-American women for white men; Asian-American women, like all women,
|want strong "masculine" men, protectors, providers, and heros.
"Strong", "masculine" traits are often associated with Black men as well.
(practices described below notwithstanding)
| Where do these stereotypes and attitudes come from? Perhaps they
|are the sexual translation of the power relationship between the dominant
|group and the minority. In America for many years, black men, no matter
|how old, would be called "boy" by any white, no matter how young. I have
|read that this practice, more than any epithet, was the most humiliating
|for black men. It was a consistent effort to strip black men of their
|masculinity,
| and as an Asian-American male, I can relate to that
|humilation. The same kind of demasculinization of Asian-American males is
|done through cultural violence, in role models and the media, as well as
|physical violence.
Please explain.
Hyunjune Seung
Holly Chen <65...@yale-celray.yale.UUCP>, chen-...@CS.YALE.EDU
writes:
"I have noticed that many American (forgive me, but I prefer American
to white) women aren't attracted to Asian men. They may have lots of
friends who are Asian, but they aren't interested in dating any of
them. On the other hand, many American men are keen on the idea of
going out with an Asian women. (These are, of course,
generalizations.) A walk across campus seems to confirm my beliefs.
Why do American men find Asians attractive while American women do
not?"
Chen suggests that Americans may find Asian features babyish,
and that this may be the reason in the disparity between white men/Asian
women and white women/Asian men dating. Others have suggested various
cultural and statistical factors: pressure from parents to marry in;
living in a predominately non-Asian area; cultural differences in the way
Americans and Asians view marriage. Some of the comments have been strange
generalization bordering on racism. Others have indeed pointed out
legitimate factors, yet I believe that none have fully explained a very
complicated issue.
The important factor that I feel has been ignored is the factor
of power. The cultural factors that have been mentioned have not
satifactorily explained Chen's main question, which is why white men/Asian
women couples are more common than white women/Asian men comples. Cultural
factors, I have found, are important between equals. Between unequals,
power relations are more important.
The power argument is as follows: In general, in sexual
relationships, men have a higher status than women. Men are physically
more powerful, and because of sexism, have the cultural upper hand. In a
similar way, Asian-Americans, have a lower status than the dominant white
majority. For a white man to marry or date an Asian woman is therefore a
simple magnification of the normal difference in status between men and
women. For a white woman to marry or date an Asian man, however, is a
reversal of status. Thus, the former is much more probable than the latter.
For example, Asians are in general shorter than whites. Men, in
general, prefer to date women who are shorter than they are. Thus, it is
more probable that white men will date Asian women than Asian men will date
white women.
Unfortunately, this is not the only manifestation of power
differences. Power can be physical, mental, cultural, political, and
economic. For example, the Asian-American male is commonly stereotyped as
being effeminate and womanly. Asian-American men are viewed as being meek,
weak, submissive, unattractive and sexless. It is unlikely that white
women will be attracted to men they view as effeminate, thus these
relationships are less common.
These stereotypes are subconsciously held by not only other
Americans but also Asian-Americans. Thus we have the preference of many
Asian-American women for white men; Asian-American women, like all women,
want strong "masculine" men, protectors, providers, and heros.
Where do these stereotypes and attitudes come from? Perhaps they
are the sexual translation of the power relationship between the dominant
group and the minority. In America for many years, black men, no matter
how old, would be called "boy" by any white, no matter how young. I have
read that this practice, more than any epithet, was the most humiliating
for black men. It was a consistent effort to strip black men of their
masculinity, and as an Asian-American male, I can relate to that
humilation. The same kind of demasculinization of Asian-American males is
done through cultural violence, in role models and the media, as well as
physical violence.
Lauren Do-Hee Song, in Yale's Korean-American Journal, writes:
"Focusing on the first generation Asian-American males, it is logical that
their relocation in to the American community will be a cultural shock in
itself. But though this shock gradually wears off, the decline in his
social status in the United States leaves an unerasable scar which is
reopened again and again by recurring incidences, stripping him bare of his
once worthy self-image." Song calls it a "compounded yoke, the double
burden of cultural shock and overnight demasculinization."
As Chen grasped intuitively, the issue is indeed much more
complicated than cultural attitudes. This is also the reason why
white/Asian sexual relationships are inherently different from sexual
relationships with blacks and other minorities, and other Asian groups.
This is why our relationship with whites are fundamentally different than
with other minorities.
Kwonjune Seung
Ik Su Yoo
>
>>From: ls...@andrew.cmu.edu (Lui Sieh)
^^^
>>
>> ...
>
>Definitely. My mother ideally would want me to marry a Chinese girl, but
>my mother also knows that I've been away from home too long (I left
>home at 13 years old and went to a boarding school) for her to be able
>to influence my life that much, and also she believes she can trust me
>enough for me to be able to make up my own mind and life, so now she just
>hopes that I marry a decent girl.
>
>
> ...
To give you another perspective...
I've been here since I was 12 years old, most of my youth spent in an
"all-white" neighborhood. Fortunately or unfortunately, I retained enough
of my cultural background that now I'm marrying a Korean girl.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Ik
C-MU '87
^^^^
(what a coincidence!)
Dwight Joe
$ Unfortunately, this is not the only manifestation of power
$differences. Power can be physical, mental, cultural, political, and
$economic. For example, the Asian-American male is commonly stereotyped as
$being effeminate and womanly. Asian-American men are viewed as being meek,
$weak, submissive, unattractive and sexless. It is unlikely that white
$women will be attracted to men they view as effeminate, thus these
$relationships are less common.
$ These stereotypes are subconsciously held by not only other
$Americans but also Asian-Americans. Thus we have the preference of many
$Asian-American women for white men; Asian-American women, like all women,
$want strong "masculine" men, protectors, providers, and heros.
$...
You raise an interesting point, but you've left things open-ended.
What is your solution to this unfortunate situation?
P.S.
A suite-mate at another college remarked to me, "Asian Americans
are not promoted to top-level management because they tend
to be meek and non-aggressive." Needless to say, I was insulted.
So, here's a hopeful thought for the "weak, meek, submissive"
chaps who might be reading this news article. Hitachi,
etc. are populated with so-called "weak, meek, submisssive"
guys, and those companies are economically beating the pants
off of some companies which prefer to keep an "inner circle" of
so-called "big, tough, masculine" guys.
Sematech, which only allows USA companies to join, is thinking
of bending the rules so that European companies are allowed
entry but NOT Japaneses companies. hmmm..... Here we have
intentions to combine the resources of American and European
companies (AEC) *just* to beat the 'lil 'ol Japanese companies (JC).
The combined financial resources of the AEC far exceeds the
combined financial resources of the JC.
hmmmm.......boy! Those "weak, meek, submissive" chaps
can really be *tough* competitors. 8^)
Lui Sieh
se...@husc8.HARVARD.EDU (Hyunjune Seung) writes:
> For example, Asians are in general shorter than whites. Men, in
> general, prefer to date women who are shorter than they are. Thus, it is
> more probable that white men will date Asian women than Asian men will
> date
> white women.
> Unfortunately, this is not the only manifestation of power
> differences. Power can be physical, mental, cultural, political, and
> economic. For example, the Asian-American male is commonly stereotyped
> as
> being effeminate and womanly. Asian-American men are viewed as being
> meek,
> weak, submissive, unattractive and sexless. It is unlikely that white
> women will be attracted to men they view as effeminate, thus these
> relationships are less common.
We, Asian-American men are viewed as such?!!?!!?!?! Could the net see
something more definitive than just your word on it? I don't want to
question your veracity but this is something that needs to be really
documented.
Really interesting article. Hope to see followup on this.
Roger Tang
>In article <22...@husc6.harvard.edu> se...@husc8.UUCP (Kwonjune Seung) writes:
>| Unfortunately, this is not the only manifestation of power
>|differences. Power can be physical, mental, cultural, political, and
>|economic. For example, the Asian-American male is commonly stereotyped as
>|being effeminate and womanly. Asian-American men are viewed as being meek,
>|weak, submissive, unattractive and sexless. It is unlikely that white
>|women will be attracted to men they view as effeminate, thus these
>|relationships are less common.
>
>Where did the "effeminate" stereotype come from? I've heard of the "brain",
>"foreigner", "nerd", "kung fu master", "all the same", and "Japanese cars
>stealing jobs" stereotypes.
This applies more toward the pre-70s stereotypes, but run a content
analysis of the Asian images in the media. "Rugged", "masculine," and "sexy"
don't appear in any of the adjective that would describe Asian males. About
the closest you get is Fu Manchu, which would hardly classify as a positive
image for non-Asian females to feel attraction for.
Even now, there's hardly a male Asian sex symbol in American media for
Asian American males to take their lead from (There's Bruce Lee, of course,
but he's dead.........")
>"Strong", "masculine" traits are often associated with Black men as well.
>(practices described below notwithstanding)
But note that these traits are NOT usually associated with Asian
males.......
--
Roger Tang, University of Washington Asian Theatre
"Hey! Who gave this dweeb an account!!?!" at the UW
gwan...@blake.acs.washington.edu
Sally Oey
[power argument of why white men prefer Asian women but
white women don't prefer Asian men]...
> This is also the reason why
> white/Asian sexual relationships are inherently different from sexual
> relationships with blacks and other minorities, and other Asian groups.
> This is why our relationship with whites are fundamentally different than
> with other minorities.
>
> Kwonjune Seung
Thanks Kwonjune, for an excellent exposition!!! I agree with you
wholeheartedly. I think another thing that needs to be emphasized
is that beyond your particular examples of height, aggressiveness, etc.,
is the SOCIAL power/status to which your argument applies fundamentally.
For example, as in your example of Black males being humiliated
and being made to feel inferior despite attributes such as physical
power--that helps explain why there are few Black/white marriages
as well. (Though on the flip side, there are a few women who find
Black men sexy because of their physical attributes--so there are
a few Black men/white women, but even fewer white men/Black women.)
However, I do wish to send a note of caution regarding "This is
...why white/Asian...relationships are inherently different from
sexual relationshiops with blacks and other minorities..."--I don't
agree there. I still think that the power argument you've so
eloquently presented is a MAJOR factor in the relationships
between any interracial coupling. The dynamics might be different
because of the different cultural factors of the different groups,
but I still think the power argument applies in its entirety.
I don't believe Asian/white relationships are fundamentally different
than any other interracial relationships. Remember, we know the
ins and outs of Asian/white relations, but little about the
other minorities (at least for most of us).
A last gripe to all you men who keep talking about what sort
of "girl" you'd marry--please refer to her as a "woman", unless
she REALLY is a girl! Most females of marrying age are women.
Thanks.
Sally Oey
Todd
there are so many more white men dating Asian women than Asian men
dating white women?" One of the ideas put forth is the view white men
(or at least males who have not been around Asian women) have of Asian
women (eg. delicate, mysterious, and subservient). To support that
this idea is prevalent in the American society (I am NOT saying the
idea is true) I turn to the mediums which dominate our society, TV and
magazines.
In a recent show of "Dear John," One of the members becamed involved
with an Asian woman who waited on him hand and foot. In a _Playboy_
(It may only be junk, but it has a very large readership) last spring
(1988), there was an article entitled "China dolls: why they are the
dreams of so many men" (or something like that). The short article
described the authors expectations of a "China doll."
So yes, I think [white] Americans have a [mistaken] belief that Asian
women are "China dolls" or "Oriental flowers" (a phrase used earlier in
this thread).
-Todd
Cario Lam
> One of the ideas put forth is the view white men
> (or at least males who have not been around Asian women) have of Asian
> women (eg. delicate, mysterious, and subservient).
Anybody that believes this has got quite a surprise in stored for
them!
Also as a side topic, my parents always told me that if I had to marry
somebody that was not Chinese, then could I marry somebody Korean.
Their reasoning for this is that supposedly Koreans and Chinese are the most
alike. Can anybody elaborate on this? Parents can be very irrational at
times.
Cario Lam
Jeff Sedayao
>"foreigner", "nerd", "kung fu master", "all the same", and "Japanese cars
>stealing jobs" stereotypes.
A good question Tim. Around where I live, Filipino youths are stereotyped
as being gang members, doing things like drive by shootings. Very few
engage in this sort of activity.
Joseph C Wang
>
>I am a little confused as to what war you are referring. The war
>called the Korean War here in the US featured the Chinese coming into
>the Korean peninsula to "repel" the US and South Korea not the
>Japanese (around 1953 I believe).
The war he was referring to occurred in the 1500's. Portugese traders landed
in Japan bringing with them firearms. A Japanese daimyo named Hideoyshi (the
spelling is probably wrong) decided to use them to conquer the world (China).
In order to do this he first needed to attack Korea. The Koreans with
Chinese help managed to repel the attack after a devastating (for the Koreans)
war.
The major Asian rivalries are:
Chinese vs. Japanese - primarily because of World War II
Chinese vs. Vietnamese - primarily because of the Chinese T'ang colonialism
Japanese vs. Korean - because of the Japanese occupation
--------------------------------
Joseph Wang (j...@athena.mit.edu)
450 Memorial Drive C-111
Cambridge, MA 02139
Todd
>I do not recollect reading anywhere that the Koreans had ever invaded
>the Chinese. On the other hand, they have in the past been invaded by
>Japan. The only times that the Chinese went into Korea were when they
>were attempting to repel the Japanese and during the Korean War. In
>neither case were the Chinese attempting to subjugate the Koreans.
>
>I guess the shared animosity towards the Japanese has something to do
>with your parents reasoning.
>
>/ken
I am a little confused as to what war you are referring. The war
called the Korean War here in the US featured the Chinese coming into
the Korean peninsula to "repel" the US and South Korea not the
Japanese (around 1953 I believe).
The South Koreans have not felt too friendly towards the Chinese
government since. [This is changing now as China has become more
Westernized (free markets, ~allies with US)]. I do not know if this
animosity is carried to the Chinese people.
As far as Chinese and Koreans looking alike; yes many do. We had
several Chinese-Americans working on base in Korea, and Koreans would
often mistake them for Koreans. Koreans would often start talking in
Korean to the Chinese-Americans, who usually did not know Korean.
This should not be surprising since the Korean peninsula hangs off of
northern China. Geographically they are very close. Japan, on the
other hand, is an island nation separate from the Asian continent.
-Todd
Norm Matloff
>Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... Last I read in 1988 (I believe that
>the magazine was "Fortune".), the divorce rate in Japan was 1.0% or just
>a tinsie winsie more than that.
I don't recall seeing any figures, but I do recall that the rate has
increased substantially.
One thing to keep in mind is that there are also Asian couples who have
separated but don't divorce, due to the stigma.
By the way, the following will prove nothing, but I think is interesting
in light of the discussion.
There are 5 foreign-born Asian faculty members in my department.
One has never married, so that leaves 4. All 4 are Chinese, and
married Chinese women. 2 of the 4 are now divorced.
I am closely aware of another department on campus. That department
has 3 foreign-born Asian faculty members, all Chinese, all married to
Chinese spouses. Let's call the 3 couples C1, C2 and C3. C1 seriously
considered divorce last year. In C2, one of the spouses has had an
extramarital affair, and for this and other reasons seems headed for
divorce. C3 is doing fine, as far as I know.
>In my opinion, the people who suffer the
>most in a divorce are the children.
Well, I think this has become a cliche'. I know several couples
right now that fight like cats and dogs. Do you really think that
it's healthy for the children to observe this night after night? I
am totally opposed to couples divorcing for capricious reasons, but
I do think it is appropriate in some cases.
Norm
Lui Sieh
o...@cfa250.harvard.edu (Sally Oey) writes:
>....edited
>I still think that the power argument you've so
>eloquently presented is a MAJOR factor in the relationships
>between any interracial coupling.
>I don't believe Asian/white relationships are fundamentally
>different than any other interracial relationships.
Actually, we shouldn't be so fixated on the idea of minority or race or
ethnicity. If you really want to get to the heart of the matter
interracial relationship are *no* different from any other relationship
between a man and a woman.
That's what should be the back of people's minds when they enter into a
relationship.
Unfortunately, Kwonjune, doesn't want this posted to soc.women and
soc.men but I think it would be very interesting for them to enter on
this discussion since we *are* talking about gender relations.
Usenet file owner
>This account is disputed by many Koreans, who have the support of a
>Japanese scholar. They claim that it was the other way around. They
>say that Korea invaded Japan at this time. A theory called the
>"Horse Rider Theory" has been formulated by Etami Namio to explain
>the invasion of Japan by Korea. To make matters worse, the Japanese
>government closely guards all known sites containing ruins from this
>era, not allowing archeologists to collect data there. The government
>says they don't want the tombs of early emperors desacrated.
A popularized version of this, with lots
of pictures :-) can be found in "Japan's
Hidden History" (Hollym Publishers? 1987?)
>the Korean peninsula was inhabited by the descendents of Chinese colonists,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not according to any book I'VE seen! The
Koreans pride themselves on their uniqueness
and even trace their geneology back to 2,200 B.C.
when allegedly Tan-gun was born of the marriage
between a she-bear turned into a woman, and the
son of the Heavenly ruler. Their language is
of course completely unrelated to Chinese.
>and consisted of three separate kingdoms, hardly a unified "Korea."
By 600 A.D., so far as I remember the Silla dynasty
had already overcome its two rivals (Koguryo
and Paekche) and Korea had been unified for
a few hundred years. I may be wrong.
>The conflicts of the seventh and sixteenth centuries, as well as the
>Japanese colonization of Korea in this century have etched deep
>scars in the relationship between these two countries. The older
In fairness to the Japanese, one might point
out that Hideyoshi was only returning the
visit of Kublai Khan. The Mongol/Chinese
Yuan dynasty made 2 attempts to sail from
Korea and invade Japan.
>Jim Ryan
>Harvard University
>Dept. of East Asian Lang. & Civ.
Best regards,
Narayan Sriranga Raja.
________ ________ __ __ ________
| | | | (/ \/ ) | |
| | | | / | |
| | | | / | |
| | | | / | |
| | | | _/ __ | | (Raja)
| | | | (__/ \) | |
/
Usenet file owner
> Also as a side topic, my parents always told me that if I had to marry
>somebody that was not Chinese, then could I marry somebody Korean.
>Their reasoning for this is that supposedly Koreans and Chinese are the most
>alike. Can anybody elaborate on this? Parents can be very irrational at
The MAIN reason I can see for this is that
Koreans and Chinese seem to have a mutually
friendly attitude to each other, and a
common animosity towards Japanese. (NOTE:
I mean stereotypes, not individuals). For
example, a Korean friend told me "We think
Chinese people have a broad, large, nature
just as their country is large".
Besides, there has been a lot more historical
interaction between China and Korea than
between China and Japan. There is even a Korean
tradition that one of the earliest, (semi-
mythological) emperors of Korea was an exiled
Chinese nobleman. In early historical times
(~100 B.C.?) most of Koguryo, biggest of the 3
important Korean kingdoms, was well over the Yalu
river in what is now China. Even now that province
(Heilongjiang?) has a big Korean minority.
Korean music was one of the 10 forms of traditional
Chinese court music.
China maintained a colony in Korea called Lolang
(which Koreans seem to call Nang-Nang)
(~~100 B.C. to ~~100 A.D.?) It was finally
defeated by the Koreans, but apparently this
fighting is too long ago to have left a residue
of hostility.
Again, after capturing China and establishing
the Yuan dynasty the Mongols invaded Korea
as well. It led to the fall of the Koryo
dynasty and the Korean general who finally
defeated the Mongols/Chinese established the
Choson dynasty which lasted from 1392 till the
Japanese arrived about 90 years ago. The Choson
dynasty made neo-Confucianism the state
ideology and downgraded Buddhism, as also
happened (less vehemently) in China during the
Ming and later post-Yuan dynasties. By contrast,
I don't recall Confucianism ever becoming the
sole official state ideology at any time in Japan.
There also doesn't seem to be a uniquely Korean
religion like Shinto in Japan; "shamanistic"
traditions which exist are not institutionalized.
China also helped Korea during Hideyoshi's
invasion in 15??. They were supposed to, as
they had suzerainty over Korea. For whatever
reason, Koreans don't seem to resent historical
vassaldom to China very acutely.
Dwight Joe
|Comments? Did I get a date or name wrong? Agree or disagree?
|Want to know more???
|
|LET ME KNOW!!!
|...
Sure. I've got a specific question.
From whom are the Koreans and the Japanese descended?
Jim Ryan
less motivated by conquest, and more to relieve Hideyoshi of an
overpopulated military class. Some scholars believe that Hideyoshi,
as part of the unification and domination of Japan, needed to "thin
the ranks" of the military, which could easily turn against him.
The invasion cost thousands of Japanese lives (and many more Koreans,
I'm sure). This may have been part of Hideyoshi's reason for
initiating the war.
As for Korean-Japanese grudge-bearing, we can go back even further to
the 600's. Legend has it that the Yamato court in Japan established
a colony on the southern tip of Korea at this time. Ancient books
contain tales of Japanese battles of conquest fought and won in Korea
by the Yamato court.
This account is disputed by many Koreans, who have the support of a
Japanese scholar. They claim that it was the other way around. They
say that Korea invaded Japan at this time. A theory called the
"Horse Rider Theory" has been formulated by Etami Namio to explain
the invasion of Japan by Korea. To make matters worse, the Japanese
government closely guards all known sites containing ruins from this
era, not allowing archeologists to collect data there. The government
says they don't want the tombs of early emperors desacrated.
Another interesting fact, why did all of the place names in Japan
change from Korean-sounding, to more Japanese words (i.e. Heian to
Kyoto)?
Arguments over the controversial "Horse Rider Theory" often erupt
into violence. This fact alone should drive home the profundity and
depth of Japanese-Korean grudges. The ironic part about this argument is
that in the 600's, Japan was not even a unified country; the idea
of a "Japan" and of "Japanese people" had not yet been invented. Likewise,
the Korean peninsula was inhabited by the descendents of Chinese colonists,
and consisted of three separate kingdoms, hardly a unified "Korea."
In short, the combatants in this conflict didn't consider themselves
"Koreans" and "Japanese," although the current inhabitants of these
geographical areas now argue fiercely in support or in opposition to
the events of the distant past.
The conflicts of the seventh and sixteenth centuries, as well as the
Japanese colonization of Korea in this century have etched deep
scars in the relationship between these two countries. The older
generation of Koreans can remember the occupation, many still speak
Japanese. This has a lot to do with Korean parents not wanting their
children to marry Japanese.
Comments? Did I get a date or name wrong? Agree or disagree?
Want to know more???
LET ME KNOW!!!
Sung-Zoon Cho
>Japan. The only times that the Chinese went into Korea were when they
>were attempting to repel the Japanese and during the Korean War.
>
One in late 5th century A.D or early 6th which Goguryo (one of three kindoms
in Korea at that time, the strongest occupying currently Manchuria region)
successfully defeated and another in late 6th century A.D. which
destroyed Baekjae (another kingdom) in cooperation with Shilla
(yet another kingdom).
There were numerous clashes bet'n China and Goguryo (refer to above) before
that time mainly because Goguryo was pretty strong.
Since that time, Korea and China (the majority or the Hans) had relatively
good relationship as so called "brother" countries until Japanese occupation
of Korea.
>In neither case were the Chinese attempting to subjugate the Koreans.
China had been too busy with herself. 8-)
-sungzoon cho
sungzoon
----
zo...@brillig.umd.edu
Sung-Zoon Cho
>northern China. Geographically they are very close. Japan, on the
>other hand, is an island nation separate from the Asian continent.
>
Chinese are more distant from Koreans than Japanese. Both of Koreans
and Japanese are classified as "Mongolians."
Norm Matloff
> Chinese are more distant from Koreans than Japanese. Both of Koreans
> and Japanese are classified as "Mongolians."
At least Koreans and Japanese get part of their language from the Chinese.
A lot of words in Korean and Japanese are very close to Chinese, especially
Cantonese. [The latter sounds strange geographically, but makes sense in
light of the fact that Cantonese is close to "old" Chinese.]
Language does have a big cultural effect, so I think that there are
good grounds for suggesting cultural similarities, even if there are
differences in physical anthropology senses.
Norm
John L Bergquist
>From article <22...@husc6.harvard.edu>, by se...@husc8.HARVARD.EDU (Hyunjune Seung):
>
> [power argument of why white men prefer Asian women but
> white women don't prefer Asian men]...
>
>
>wholeheartedly. I think another thing that needs to be emphasized
>is that beyond your particular examples of height, aggressiveness, etc.,
>is the SOCIAL power/status to which your argument applies fundamentally.
Personally, I don't feel that I prefer Asian women because of any kind
of a power trip. At least not consciously. And no, I don't prefer the
shorter Asian women to taller ones. And even if this THEORY
were true, wouldn't that mean that some Asian women liked white men because
they wanted to feel LESS powerful or have a LOWER status? I find this
hard to believe.
>
>
>A last gripe to all you men who keep talking about what sort
>of "girl" you'd marry--please refer to her as a "woman", unless
>she REALLY is a girl! Most females of marrying age are women.
>Thanks.
>
>Sally Oey
Well, Sally, I'll call you a woman if you call me a man. Most of the
"women" I know here on the Berkeley campus don't call me a man, though,
even though I'm 23. They call me a guy. Come to think of it, my 22 year
old friends here on campus are never referred to as men either. Just guys.
Or don't you think 23 is old enough to get married? :-)
John Bergquist
jo...@cory.Berkeley.EDU
John L Bergquist
In article <48...@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> you write:
>Way back at the beginning of this thread the question was posed "Why
>there are so many more white men dating Asian women than Asian men
>dating white women?" One of the ideas put forth is the view white men
>(or at least males who have not been around Asian women) have of Asian
>women (eg. delicate, mysterious, and subservient).
I don't believe that is the reason. I have gone out with a few Asian
women and have seen that these stereotypes are not true, and yet
I still prefer Asian women. Besides, if I did hold this view of Asian
women, I should prefer them to Asian-American women, which I don't.
>
>In a recent show of "Dear John," One of the members becamed involved
>with an Asian woman who waited on him hand and foot.
I saw that show, and I still can't believe they did that. I thought
sure that type of stereotyping would cause an outrage.
>In a _Playboy_
>(It may only be junk, but it has a very large readership) last spring
>(1988), there was an article entitled "China dolls: why they are the
>dreams of so many men" (or something like that).
If they really believe that, then I don't see why they don't feature
more Asian women in their magazine.
>
>So yes, I think [white] Americans have a [mistaken] belief that Asian
>women are "China dolls" or "Oriental flowers" (a phrase used earlier in
>this thread).
>
Maybe so, but there are still two people involved. What about the woman?
Surely she must have stereotypes about white men if there are so many
White man/Asian woman couples...
Why do so many people ask what the white man sees in the Asian woman?
Why aren't there as many questions the other way around?
John L Bergquist
jo...@cory.Berkeley.EDU
Bret Jolly
> One in late 5th century A.D or early 6th which Goguryo (one of three
This date is seriously wrong.
John L Bergquist
of which one I fall into, I felt I should share my views,
although I don't know if they are typical....
In article <22...@husc6.harvard.edu> se...@husc8.UUCP (Kwonjune Seung) writes:
>
>
> Chen suggests that Americans may find Asian features babyish,
>and that this may be the reason in the disparity between white men/Asian
>women and white women/Asian men dating.
I'm not entirely sure of my own reasons for liking Asian women, but I
believe it is more physical than anything else. I find Chen's suggestion
plausible.
> The important factor that I feel has been ignored is the factor
>of power.
>
> The power argument is as follows: In general, in sexual
>relationships, men have a higher status than women. Men are physically
>more powerful, and because of sexism, have the cultural upper hand. In a
>similar way, Asian-Americans, have a lower status than the dominant white
>majority. For a white man to marry or date an Asian woman is therefore a
>simple magnification of the normal difference in status between men and
>women. For a white woman to marry or date an Asian man, however, is a
>reversal of status. Thus, the former is much more probable than the latter.
> For example, Asians are in general shorter than whites. Men, in
>general, prefer to date women who are shorter than they are. Thus, it is
>more probable that white men will date Asian women than Asian men will date
>white women.
Then I should prefer a white woman who is shorter than me over an Asian
woman who is taller. This is not true.
And if the issue of power is so important, than how come I know so many
Asian guys who like white women? Shouldn't they prefer non-whites if
your theory is correct? I actually know two Asian guys who do not like
Asian girls at all and prefer whites.
And why is it that the vast majority of American models/movie stars/etc.
are still white?
Under your theory, white women should be low on the list of preferences
of most men in this country, but I do not think this is true.
I've dated some Asian girls who were very outgoing and adventurous
and not at all the type of girl you would think of as being dominated by
anyone, and I liked them alot.
I find the power theory interesting, but I still believe that my preferences
are based on physical characteristics rather than some sort of subconscious
need to feel more powerful than a woman, but like I said, I don't know
if my reasons for preferring Asian girls/women are typical.
>
>Kwonjune Seung
John Bergquist
jo...@cory.Berkeley.EDU
Timothy J. Lee
>In article <15...@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> tim...@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Timothy J. Lee) writes:
>>Where did the "effeminate" stereotype come from? I've heard of the "brain",
>>"foreigner", "nerd", "kung fu master", "all the same", and "Japanese cars
>>stealing jobs" stereotypes.
> This applies more toward the pre-70s stereotypes, but run a content
>analysis of the Asian images in the media.
What Asian images in the media?
Noriyuki Morita's roles in "The Karate Kid" and "Ohara" tend to be of
the martial artist and exotic culture (foreigner) type more than
anything else.
Certainly, enemy (to the Americans) soldiers in war movies are not
portrayed as effeminate.
Occasionally, a magazine will write about Asians in colleges (reinforcing
the brain and nerd images).
But what other images?
Timothy J. Lee
|> Chinese are more distant from Koreans than Japanese. Both of Koreans
|> and Japanese are classified as "Mongolians."
|
|At least Koreans and Japanese get part of their language from the Chinese.
|A lot of words in Korean and Japanese are very close to Chinese, especially
|Cantonese. [The latter sounds strange geographically, but makes sense in
|light of the fact that Cantonese is close to "old" Chinese.]
Korean and Japanese were originally unrelated to Chinese (but related
to Mongolian, Manchu, and Turkish). However, Korean and Japanese (and
Mongolian and Manchu) adapted and modified the Chinese writing system
for their own uses. So say the linguists.
barbara.tongue
->
->> This applies more toward the pre-70s stereotypes, but run a content
->>analysis of the Asian images in the media.
->
->What Asian images in the media?
->
->Noriyuki Morita's roles in "The Karate Kid" and "Ohara" tend to be of
->the martial artist and exotic culture (foreigner) type more than
->anything else.
I saw Noriyuik Morita's roles in "The Karate Kid n" to be much more of
a teacher of the spirit than anything else; his martial arts seemed to
be a background frame for this. It's a shame that many of the American
audiences took TKK3 at surface value.
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% The Speaking Tongue, AT&T %% C Code. C Code Run. Run, Code, RUN! %%
%% (..!att)!feathers!bgt %% PLEASE!!!! %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jim Ryan
that it takes about half as long to learn one if you already know the other.
Does anyone out there know both Japanese and Korean?
Is this true?
Jim Ryan
Sung-Zoon Cho
how much efforts I had to put in learning Japanese and English to
achieve similar level of fluency.
I would say Japanese takes one fifth of the effort mainly because
of the similarity of the grammar structures and a large number of
vocabularies shared by both languages.
Swamy Bale
> of their makers (Richard Attenborough and Rudyard Kipling) and their
> romanticised vision of India than the actual heat and dust of India.
> Neither provides foreign audiences with any sort of identifiable images
> which can help counteract the subliminal messages conveyed by the above
> list of examples and their like. I suspect non-Indians sense this and in
> general do not take these movies seriously (especially "Gandhi". After
> all, nobody is expected to take Jungle Book seriously).
>
> Ajit Sanzgiri
Another movie called "Passage to India" has all the imaginary evils done by
Indians. In that film the image of Gopal Krishna Gokale has been completely
spoiled(even though the name has changed to Godbole). The moviemakers portrayed
image of Indian villagers as a bunch of snake charmers, jokers and lowgrade
citizens.
I don't know why India allow these movies to show in public theatres in
India.
Any comments.
Swamy.
Mukund Srinivasan
>
> I cannot speak on behalf of people from other countries/ethnic groups
>but being from India I am particularly sensitized to portrayals of people from
>the Indian subcontinent in the American media, particularly movies. Here are a
>few examples that come to mind readily:
I was asked rather seriously by a Professor here at Hopkins - after
telling him that I was a strict vegetarian - "But I thought that
Indians ate spiders, monkeys etc !!" and I can vouch for the fact
that he was quite serious in his question. Spielberg damaged people's
conception of indian dietary habits rather seriously !!
And while on the topic of indians here, I have noticed that a
significant proprotion (not a majority or a minority) of Indians here
have the "kowtow" mentality. They bow mentally and in most actions
towards white americans. Further, most indian restaurants I have
visited do have a maitre'de who inquires about the food, service
etc, if you are an american and who will not look twice at you
if you happen to be indian. This famous strain of Indian hospitality
is exemplified by the air hostesses in Air India flights where they
will smile and suck up to everyone except indians. Part of this
problem came from the legacy of british rule - i.e. white is best.
If this is the way we behave, we had better not crib if people go
about and cook up all kinds of distortions on indians.
I must state that I don't think that this is the majority behavior
or that everyone has had such experiences. However, a lot of friends
and acquaitances have had similar experiences in society, restaurants
etc. which cannot be ignored.
Mukund Srinivasan
muk...@crabcake.cs.jhu.edu
Ajit Sanzgiri
Timothy J. Lee wants to know:
>What Asian images in the media?
>
>
>Certainly, enemy (to the Americans) soldiers in war movies are not
>portrayed as effeminate.
>
>Occasionally, a magazine will write about Asians in colleges (reinforcing
>the brain and nerd images).
>
>But what other images?
>
but being from India I am particularly sensitized to portrayals of people from
the Indian subcontinent in the American media, particularly movies. Here are a
few examples that come to mind readily:
1) The role of "Bakshi" (played by Peter Sellers), the central (and
comical) figure of the movie "The Party" made sometime in the late
60's or early 70's. The gentleman in question appears to be mentally
retarded and what is known in less refined (than Usenet) circles as
"a pansy".
2) The wimpish sidekick of Tom Hanks (or was it Steve Gutenberg) in
the recent sci-fi comedy "Remote Control". (I am not absolutely sure
about the name. The movie had to do with this cutesy robot which is
slightly "faulty" and as a result a bit humanoid). Though he appears
on the side of the "good guys", the fellow evokes more contempt (in the
service of humour) than respect.
3) There was an Indian (could easily have been Pakistani) pimp in the
movie "Bachelor Party" starring Tom Hanks. This guy is a disgusting
street-sharp in addition to being - you guessed it - a pansy.
4) Spielberg's "Indiana Jones and the Temple of doom" had three distinct
images of Indians none of them unduly flattering: a) the horribly poor
and disgustingly abject villagers throwing themselves at Indy's feet
(those who have any knowledge of Indian peasantry will know the
absurdity of a Hindu - or for that matter, a Muslim - begging a "white
man" to salvage his god/s); b) The demoniacally evil priest of Kali and
his cohorts - a "tough guy" no doubt, but not a figure to be respected;
c) a group of superficially westernised court figures who combine in
equal measure effeminacy and evil - not to mention a taste for such
exotic cuisine as monkey brains (served in their original packing),
fried spiders, snakes and soups made out of the eyeballs of some
indeterminate mammal species. It ought not to be necessary (but I fear
it probably is) to say that the none of the above form a part of the
diet of the people in/around India.
5) I don't remember "Octopussy" very well but it too had this image
of a heroic white (Mr. Roger Moore) hero decimating disgusting dusky
natives. The movie was particularly irritating because Vijay Amritraj
(some sort of a role model for aspiring sportsmen&women in India)
lowered himself to doing some sidey role in it. My "subcontinental
honour" will not be satisfied unless I see, say, John Macenroe doing
a 2-bit role in one of the masala movies of Bombay (an unlikely
eventuality, unfortunately).
6) "A fish called Wanda" had a South Asian woman sweeping the floor
at Heathrow Airport.
7) The almost concerted effort to ignore India and Indians in "The
Jewel in the Crown".
The examples could go on and on. It takes a considerable amount of
head-scratching to come up with two positive portrayals: Gandhi in
"Gandhi" and Mowgli in "The Jungle Book". Both share one thing in
common: they are fantasies which have more to do with the preoccupations
sridhar pingali
> images of Indians none of them unduly flattering: a) the horribly poor
> and disgustingly abject villagers throwing themselves at Indy's feet
> (those who have any knowledge of Indian peasantry will know the
> absurdity of a Hindu - or for that matter, a Muslim - begging a "white
> man" to salvage his god/s); b) The demoniacally evil priest of Kali and
> his cohorts - a "tough guy" no doubt, but not a figure to be respected;
> c) a group of superficially westernised court figures who combine in
> equal measure effeminacy and evil - not to mention a taste for such
> exotic cuisine as monkey brains (served in their original packing),
> fried spiders, snakes and soups made out of the eyeballs of some
> indeterminate mammal species. It ought not to be necessary (but I fear
> it probably is) to say that the none of the above form a part of the
> diet of the people in/around India.
>
Americans. I have heard of Indian students in schools being subjected
to a good deal of taunting following the release of the movie. I also
read of a case of a dinner party thrown by an Indian couple in New York
that turned out to be a disaster - apparently some couples expected to
see some of the bizarre stuff that Indians are depicted as eating in the
movie. This, despite the fact that India is the only country that I know
in which vegetarianism is very much a part of the mainstream culture and
not just a fringe phenomenon. The movie was not even shot in India - it
was shot in Sri Lanka. Of course it was meant as entertainment etc., but
I have the impression that Americans -like people everywhere- are fairly
likely to take for truth what is meant to be fiction. Spielberg chose to
traduce a religion, a nation, a culture and a people with that movie.
> The examples could go on and on. It takes a considerable amount of
> head-scratching to come up with two positive portrayals: Gandhi in
> "Gandhi" and Mowgli in "The Jungle Book". Both share one thing in
> common: they are fantasies which have more to do with the preoccupations
> of their makers (Richard Attenborough and Rudyard Kipling) and their
> romanticised vision of India than the actual heat and dust of India.
One of the more irritating aspects of these movies is the way the
casting is done (in Gandhi and the rest of the Raj stuff). I fail
to see why non-Indians should play the roles of prominent Indians.
The raj nostalgia binge amounted to very little more than a propa-
ganda effort by the British to sanitize and whitewash their rule
in India.
Sridhar
Gary L Dare
>
>I was asked rather seriously by a Professor here at Hopkins - after
>telling him that I was a strict vegetarian - "But I thought that
>Indians ate spiders, monkeys etc !!" and I can vouch for the fact
>that he was quite serious in his question. Spielberg damaged people's
>conception of indian dietary habits rather seriously !!
When I lived in Calgary, I briefly dated a woman whose mother was a
fundamentalist Christian. When I first met her mom, the topic of
religion surfaced and she asked if my family worshipped idols at home!
(My ethnic background is Chinese.) I was stunned and flabbergasted,
but quite quickly recovered with, "No, but I've got an autographed
picture of Bobby Hull on my wall!" (-;
(Bobby Hull was the superstar hockey player with the Chicago Black
Hawks and the Winnipeg Jets.)
Later that night, I found a pile of propoganda by their fireplace on
missionary work in Asia. In it, they outlined stories about Asian
faiths such as ancestor worship, etc. that come right out of some
bad Hollywood B-movie! Obviously, any white person reading this
would feel so vastly superior to the ignorant yellow barbarians
who kneel in front of statues of ancestors and buddhas. We must
surely make them see the light! (-;
I was grossly insulted, and even worse, feared for the way people
must perceive people who look like me . . .
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare Jesus Saves!
> g...@cunixd.cc.columbia.EDU Gretzky gets the rebound -
> g...@cunixc.BITNET he shoots, he scores!
Todd
>A lot of people of have tried to explain the seemingly lopsided
>statistics of more white men dating asian women than vice versa.
>Some of the reasons put forward seem to be
>
>3. Asians are stereotyped as effeminate and non-assertive
>which works in the favor of asian women but against asian men.
>know not dated an asian male based on this stereotype ?
>
> RKS
>ARPA: r...@notecnirp.princeton.edu | If I had had more time, I could
I have seen point 3 mentioned several times, and I don't think I agree
with it. I have been trying to think back to most of the Asian males
that I have known who were raised in the US, and most of them were
very athletic-many pretty darn buff too. After playing football,
softball, hocky, running track, and wrestling with and against Asian
males (I would use "men", but I knew a lot in k-12 school too), I
would hardly consider them effeminate or non-assertive.
Most of the Asian males I know who were raised in Asia are part of the
intelligencia (or whatever the word is for the educated group 8-)-after
all, I met most through my studies. Many may me seem "mild mannered,"
but I think that is because their studies comes before athletics (and
other "masculine" activities).
Here is another idea to throw in the pot (or throw away): maybe white
males are exposed to Asian women more than white women to Asian men.
Here at work I am exposed to many Asian women and very few white
women. Statistically it would not be surprising that I would date an
Asian woman.
--------------
Todd Heberlein
Norm Matloff
Yes. In fact, my understanding is that Japanese is related to Turkish
and Finnish (!), and that this is due to migration (!). [I'm not
kidding.]
However, there apparently are close relations of SUBSETS of these
languages to Chinese. I am told that many Japanese words have two
sets of pronunciation, one of which is similar to Chinese, as I
said in your quote of me above, and I have certainly noticed lots
of confirmation of this.
Last week someone mentioned here an article in Forbes Magazine about
divorce in Japan. I couldn't find the article, but I did notice one
article about leisure time in Japan, which mentioned that feminists
had opposed the institution of a new holiday to honor married couples.
The name of the holiday was "ii fufu", which the article said means
"good married couples." Well, "fufu" means married couple in Chinese.
In watching Japanese TV programs with English subtitles, I run into
lots of examples like this. I don't watch the Korean programs (no
subtitles!), but I've seen them announce phone numbers in Korean
during commercials, and those sound very close to Chinese too; I
can pick up these phone numbers "blind", i.e. not watching the
screen (which displays the numerals).
So there is definitely a substantial language connection, and (back
to the original topic) one has to assume that this also manifests
itself in some cultural connections.
Norm
Veena A. Gondhalekar
Article 18706 soc.culture.indian, ecf...@jhunix.UUCP (Mukund Srinivasan)
> ...exemplified by the air hostesses in Air India flights where they
> will smile and suck up to everyone except indians. .......
Though I am not at all defending the attitude of the AI stewardesses
towards Indians (I don't have first-hand experience myself), what a
friend told me some time ago set me thinking. She, a (white) European,
travelled by AI from Sydney to Bombay. All was well till the 'plane
halted at Singapore. Here, the 'plane was, kind of, invaded by a hoard
of Indians loaded with hajjar pieces of hand-baggage including bags
overflowing with dutyfree goods like cartons of 'phoren' cigarettes
and the like (Does AI not have restriction on the # of pieces of hand-
baggage permitted per person? Or is the restriction, if any, only on
paper?). They created utter chaos in the cabin. Most people couldn't
locate their own seats and were demanding the stewardesses' help for
the same (at the same time). The stewardesses, largely outnumbered,
were completely hassled (sp?). Then, all this luggage was spread
everywhere - on the laps (their own business), onto the aisles (every-
one else's business) etc. So, this friend of mine, who was herself very
much satisfied with the services of AI, did not wonder if Indians got a
shabby treatment from their own stewardesses. All this notwithstanding,
one must, however, not forget that stewardesses are professionals and
in a profession, one does not discriminate between clients. So their
snootiness cannot be pardoned under any circumstances.
Have always wondered why the IA stewardesses make all Hindi announcements
in an extremely funny (supposedly Anglicized/sophisticated (?!?) ) accent
which is intelligible to perhaps only other stewardesses. Also heard an
announcer/anchor/whatever recently on the Asia-vision telecast from NY
saying something about Vr'naasi. It dawned upon me after some time (and
inflicted a lot of pain in its wake) that she meant Varanasi. And she
wasn't (isn't) an abcd. I mean, WHY ?
Sunil Arya
...
@And while on the topic of indians here, I have noticed that a
@significant proprotion (not a majority or a minority) of Indians here
@have the "kowtow" mentality. They bow mentally and in most actions
@towards white americans. Further, most indian restaurants I have
@visited do have a maitre'de who inquires about the food, service
@etc, if you are an american and who will not look twice at you
@if you happen to be indian. This famous strain of Indian hospitality
@is exemplified by the air hostesses in Air India flights where they
@will smile and suck up to everyone except indians. Part of this
@problem came from the legacy of british rule - i.e. white is best.
@If this is the way we behave, we had better not crib if people go
@about and cook up all kinds of distortions on indians.
@I must state that I don't think that this is the majority behavior
@or that everyone has had such experiences. However, a lot of friends
@and acquaitances have had similar experiences in society, restaurants
@etc. which cannot be ignored.
The reason some Indians have a servile mentality is not fully clear to
me. My conjecture is that it is only in small part related to the legacy
of the British rule, and that there are other more complex factors
involved.
In part it is the sense of inferiority among Indians that stems from
the fact that modern science and industry are chiefly Western inventions,
and from the fact that the West is materially far more prosperous than
India. There is not much that we can do about these facts, and in any case
is there not a strong element of irrationality in deriving pride (or shame)
from the actions of distant ancestors ? But ofcourse we cannot deny that
such factors play a very strong role in the life of any Indian. Therefore,
as I see it, there is nothing more important than teaching history and
literature with a view to increasing the pride in being Indian. E.M. Forster's
"Passage to India" should be either thrown into the sea or burnt (:-)) and
replaced by Nehru's books as a way of teaching literature. There is of course
great danger in the sort of view being voiced here: if we refuse to take
the best from the Western civilisation, especially science and liberalism,
then we are doomed. Also if we take to hating the West as a way of instilling
pride then we shall do something that is ethically repugnant (though it
might work).
The second thing that concerns me is the presence of too many divisive
tendencies in India. Because Hindus and Muslims wouldn't trust one another
they strengthened the hands of the British. We have sufferred tremendously
as a consequence of these anarchistic tendencies: it is HIGH time we learnt
our lessons. Until and unless we treat one another with the highest possible
respect, we are doomed to face the sort of thing that Mukund talks about
above.
Lastly I wish to point out that there seem to be two separate elements
in the pride that most people feel. First, there is the pride that comes from
being a part of a larger group and taking credit for the achievements of
this larger group without usually having contributed anything (much) towards
it as an individual. The larger group may be based on religion or language
or nation but in most cases it does not include the whole world. Politicians
love to play to this element of pride: Ronald Reagan made the people feel good
simply about being American, and asked for no sacrifices in return;
consequently the people chose him to be President with huge margins. Second,
there is the pride and feeling of self-respect that comes from one's own
achievements. I have met bright Indians who do not treat themselves with
sufficient respect. They refer to themselves as "miserable desis": this is
self-effacement taken too far. The way to instilling this second sort of pride
is by making a child feel good about himself when he succeeds in a difficult
endeavour, both at school and at home. Also a child should never be made to
suffer physical punishment which destroys self-respect, especially for
a sensitive child. I remember how I used to be pulled up by my ears alone
and lifted off the ground by my instructor for never being able to march
properly (despite my best efforts); only with difficulty have I managed
to retain my sense of self-worth.
@Mukund Srinivasan
@muk...@crabcake.cs.jhu.edu
sunil arya
Ramesh Sitaraman
statistics of more white men dating asian women than vice versa.
Some of the reasons put forward seem to be
1. Carrying on the family name through its male members is
important in some far eastern cultures.
2. The power struggle in society puts white female above
the asian male which goes against the traditional male
domination bias in both societies.
3. Asians are stereotyped as effeminate and non-assertive
which works in the favor of asian women but against asian men.
I am particularly interested in opinions about the last
point. I am cross posting this to soc.singles to get some
expert opinions !!! Is this stereotype widely held
among the people you may know ? Have you or someone you
know not dated an asian male based on this stereotype ?
Also, in the above "asian" seem to imply far eastern
people (japanese, chinese, korean etc). As I can't
particularly think of Khomeni as being very meek,
(:-) :-)), do other asians like Iranians, Indians,
Arabs etc also fall into this stereotype ?
RKS
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ARPA: r...@notecnirp.princeton.edu | If I had had more time, I could
SPRINT:(609) 683 1979 (Home) | have written you a shorter letter.
(609) 452 5389 (Off) | -Blaise Pascal
Sunil Arya
Tony Wang
Huh? Where did you get that? I'm obviously an Oriental male--look at my
name. And, I never felt threatened or demasculinized by dating a white
woman.
What's the big deal, anyway?
"It's my life and I'll do what I want tw...@ncifcrf.gov
It's my mind and I'll think what I want.
Show me I'm wrong and hurt me sometime,
But someday, I'll teach you real fine..."
Phani K. Saripella
around the Washington Memorial I got speaking to this school teacher
from Rochester, N.Y. She was speaking about her experinces at
Varanasi ( pronounced perfectly) and her close encounters with
Indian food. I then started drawing the distinction between
north and south Indian food and she wanted to know whether
I was referring to masala dosas( pronounced perfectly).
That certainly gladdened my heart.
Phani Kumar
Sunil Arya
discusses some aspects related to it.
In article <16...@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu> s...@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu (Kenneth Suh) writes:
>In article <82...@bsu-cs.bsu.edu> mys...@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Swamy Bale) writes:
>>Another movie called "Passage to India" has all the imaginary evils done by
>>Indians.
>>
>>Any comments.
>>
>>Swamy.
>
>I think that Swamy did not understand what was going on in "A Passage to
>India." I think that the book by E.M. Forster was much better. The
>last time I read it was back in 10th grade (8 years ago).
>
>The movie was a pretty good interpretation of the novel. The Indians
>are not depicted as the savages. Instead, it is really the Britains
>that are.
The Indians are all (or very nearly all) depicted as servile and dishonest.
Dr. Aziz is depicted as having no conception of verbal accuracy, as a man
totally without a sense of balance, being guided entirely by sudden impulses
untempered by reason. The book is pure orientalism (though admittedly better
than many other pieces of orientalist writing), and should be thrown
into the Indian ocean. More seriously, the book has no place as a textbook
in Indian schools and colleges except possibly to demonstrate the hold of
orientalism on the minds of people.
The British in India are depicted as callous and arrogant: E.M. Forster
deserves to be applauded for admitting the truth on this.
>Remember when the Indian doctor (Sorry, I forgot his name.)
>lent his stud to the Britain because the Britain's stud had broken.
Dr. Aziz displays his usual servile attitude, and gives his only collar
stud to Dr. Fielding, lying to him that it was a spare one.
>When both arrived at the function, the British guests commented on how
>the doctor did not know how to dress because he forgot the stud on his
>collar.
The British guest, Ronnie (sp?) does not just remark on how Dr. Aziz was
without the collar stud, rather he generalises and makes some racist remark
about all Indians. Forster is trying to make this point: that the British
in India (in this case Ronnie but there are lots of other examples in the
book) were always unfairly generalising about all Indians. Little does
Forster realise how the same thing could be said with much truth about
him too: the degree to which Forster accepts orientalist dogmas is very
great.
>It was Mrs. Moore, a British lady, who went out to see these caverns with
>the doctor and while in the caverns imagined she had been raped.
It was Miss Quested who imagined that she had been raped.
>At the end of the movie, who did you think was the civilized race and
>who was not?
Forster is out of sympathy with the British in India who certainly do
not come out as civilised. But his Indian characters too are a
despicable lot.
I shall be happy to present evidence in favour of the positions I have
taken in this article if we continue with this discussion.
>/ken
>
>Kenneth Suh PATH: s...@WATSUN.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU
>Columbia University P.O. ..!rutgers!columbia!watsun!suh
>P.O. Box 250039 s...@CUNIXC.BITNET
>New York, NY 10025
>
sunil arya
Sally Oey
In article <59...@gssc.UUCP>, aj...@gssc.UUCP (Ajit Sanzgiri) writes:
> 4) Spielberg's "Indiana Jones and the Temple of doom"
While we're talking about movies, what did the South Asian-Americans
think of "My Beautiful Laundrette"?
I liked it a lot, as I thought it gave a generally favorable
impression of Pakistani-English people. I like the way the
protagonist in the movie was not a white person, but an Asian
person, played by an Asian person, and a gay man at that!
One of the things that I thought was representative of the
tone of the movie that I really enjoyed was the fact that
Omar's mother's magic _worked_--I remember that earlier in
the film, when she was concocting the "exotic" stuff with
spiders and what have you, the audience laughed, because they
thought it was quaint and absurd that anyone would think
that sort of magic would work. Well, they didn't laugh when
it actually did work! I loved it! Although not realistic,
it gave validity to the traditions of different cultures
which are often scorned by westerners.
Sally Oey
Mahesh Jethanandani
>In article <82...@bsu-cs.bsu.edu> mys...@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Swamy Bale) writes:
>>Another movie called "Passage to India" has all the imaginary evils done by
>>Indians.
>>
>>Any comments.
>>
>>Swamy.
>
>I think that Swamy did not understand what was going on in "A Passage to
>India." I think that the book by E.M. Forster was much better. The
>last time I read it was back in 10th grade (8 years ago).
>
>The movie was a pretty good interpretation of the novel. The Indians
>are not depicted as the savages. Instead, it is really the Britains
>lent his stud to the Britain because the Britain's stud had broken.
>the doctor did not know how to dress because he forgot the stud on his
>collar.
Nobody is challenging the fact that the movie was a very good interpretation of E. M. Fosters book. But what is also true is that the Director went out of his way to interpret what he thought Foster was trying to say. In particular there was no reason do darken the face of the doctor. The actor in person is not dark and so is the case with most of the Indians. For the director to think that all Indians are dark or atleast to potray them as such was certianly in very poor taste. The Director had no reas
on to potray white as a superior race when he was not even sure that Foster himself believed in that fact.
mahesh
Swamy Bale
> In article <82...@bsu-cs.bsu.edu> mys...@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Swamy Bale) writes:
> >Indians.
> >
> >
> >Swamy.
>
> I think that Swamy did not understand what was going on in "A Passage to
> India." I think that the book by E.M. Forster was much better. The
> last time I read it was back in 10th grade (8 years ago).
May be the book was much better, but not the movie. I can only say that
these british and american movie directors purposely spoiling the image
of India.
> that are. Remember when the Indian doctor (Sorry, I forgot his name.)
His name is Dr.Aziz.
> lent his stud to the Britain because the Britain's stud had broken.
> When both arrived at the function, the British guests commented on how
> the doctor did not know how to dress because he forgot the stud on his
> collar.
>
> It was Mrs. Moore, a British lady, who went out to see these caverns with
> the doctor and while in the caverns imagined she had been raped.
That is not Mrs. Moore, but Miss. Quested.
>
> At the end of the movie, who did you think was the civilized race and
> who was not?
Definetly Indians. That's why we kicked the British out of India.
>
>
> /ken
>
> Kenneth Suh PATH: s...@WATSUN.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU
OB Joke:
The small Island which is quiet bigger than our Mysore district is called
Great Britain or United kingdom. Ha Ha Ha
Swamy.
=============================================================================
Swamy S Bale AT&T : 317-289-6047 (home), 317-285-1670 (off).
601, N.Dill ARPA : mys...@bsu-cs.bsu.edu
Muncie, IN 47303 UUCP : <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee}!bsu-cs!mysore
BIT : 00ssbale@bsuvax1
=============================================================================
Kenneth Suh
>Indians.
>
>
>Swamy.
I think that Swamy did not understand what was going on in "A Passage to
India." I think that the book by E.M. Forster was much better. The
last time I read it was back in 10th grade (8 years ago).
The movie was a pretty good interpretation of the novel. The Indians
are not depicted as the savages. Instead, it is really the Britains
that are. Remember when the Indian doctor (Sorry, I forgot his name.)
lent his stud to the Britain because the Britain's stud had broken.
When both arrived at the function, the British guests commented on how
the doctor did not know how to dress because he forgot the stud on his
collar.
It was Mrs. Moore, a British lady, who went out to see these caverns with
the doctor and while in the caverns imagined she had been raped.
At the end of the movie, who did you think was the civilized race and
who was not?
/ken
Kenneth Suh PATH: s...@WATSUN.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU
Brijesh Agarwal
>
>>What Asian images in the media?
>>
>>Noriyuki Morita's roles in "The Karate Kid" and "Ohara" tend to be of
>>But what other images?
>but being from India I am particularly sensitized to portrayals of people from
>the Indian subcontinent in the American media, particularly movies. Here are a
>few examples that come to mind readily:
> 1) The role of "Bakshi" (played by Peter Sellers), the central (and
> 2) The wimpish sidekick of Tom Hanks (or was it Steve Gutenberg) in
> 4) Spielberg's "Indiana Jones and the Temple of doom" had three distinc
... (deleted stuff ..)
Topics about portrayl of Indians(Actually, non-whites)
in western movies is also not new. These images hurt, but
most will agree, are hardly a real problem (I mean there
is no conspiracy). Let's see how this happens : Movie
producers are looking for some MASALA, most find plenty in U.S.
(standard, car-chases/murders/shoot-outs/sex/...);
itself and few, like Spielberg (who incidentally I believe is
most powerful man in the Hollywood; which most of us know
is really a big deal in US) venture into outside, say
India.
What would they include (I mean box-office MASALA)??
Think, ... little more...
* What will be the plot?
A white blond chic falls in love with an Indian prince?
(Americans don't understand Kingdom; besides British have
already done that)...Hmm... What else? Day in the life
of an Indian? The hero loses his virginity?
Hero's mother is kidnapped, he puts his life on stake,
(Lo, how do you explain this to Americans ?)
in the bargain finds a beautiphul virgin bahu.
* Let's see who should be the main star?
(We know American movies are ONE-MAN movies)
Amitabh? Kapoor?
* OK, maybe have Indian women instead; Who would do the
bare/dare roles? seducing a white man?
Rekha? Tina Munim? /* poor baby, I didn't mean to pick on you */
* Now, who will be the sideys?
Here some previleged few get the roles, for money is good.
Amritraj etc. make the scoop.
(Did I mention that you should look at the acting, and
not what role one is playing).
Ofcourse, if had a lot of $s to make a movie, and knowledge
that several millions would pay to see it, I could also buy some
actors to do some special roles for me.
Let's get real.
It is true India is not rich that we would want it to be;
there are several less fortunate back in India in some remote
"zhuggis/chawls/slums/ ". Truth is, lot of us look right thru
these things; and these are the same things that catch the
eyes of the foreigners(actually, ones from developed nations).
It dosen't hurt me if someone thinks that Indians eat "xyz",
(I can easily reply a humble "NO THEY DON'T")
but it hurts me to KNOW that some Indians don't get
anything to eat at all.
=====
Believe me I don't think all this (movie images etc.) bothers
anyone in India, who are content with their share of other problems.
Even Brain Drain is Brain otherwise in the Drain as far they are
concerned - fortunately there's plenty of residual talent in India.
-----
Stereotyping is quite another issue. How many of us do
anything to change it??
Sanjay Chatterjee
>>
>>I think that Swamy did not understand what was going on in "A Passage to
>>India." I think that the book by E.M. Forster was much better. The
>>last time I read it was back in 10th grade (8 years ago).
>>
>>The movie was a pretty good interpretation of the novel. The Indians
>>are not depicted as the savages. Instead, it is really the Britains
>>that are.
In response to which, Sunil Arya (su...@alv.uucp) wrote:
>The Indians are all (or very nearly all) depicted as servile and dishonest.
>Dr. Aziz is depicted as having no conception of verbal accuracy, as a man
>totally without a sense of balance, being guided entirely by sudden impulses
>untempered by reason. The book is pure orientalism (though admittedly better
>than many other pieces of orientalist writing), and should be thrown
>into the Indian ocean. More seriously, the book has no place as a textbook
>in Indian schools and colleges except possibly to demonstrate the hold of
>orientalism on the minds of people.
...[some details presented by Sunil to support his view]
>sunil arya
I agree absolutely with what Sunil points out. The movie was really very
faithful to Forster's foggy, confused and very disjointed interpretation
of his Indian characters.
However, for those of you who've decided to check on this controvertial
movie for themselves, let me point at some positive facets, and what you
*could* look forward to appreciating.
A Passage to India was yet another cinematic triumph for its director
David Lean, someone all too well known for instilling life into his films
through his grandiose sets, events and (usually, probably not as universally
this time) characters - remember Dr. Zhivago, Lawrence of Arabia, Ryan's
Daughter?
The panoramic shots of the Marabar Caves, the still of the night when
Bannerjee and Peggy Ashcroft meet (in a mosque?), the stifling and terri-
fying experience with the monkeys as well as the collage of mesmerizing
images of the temple-ruins that Judy Davis (her role as a psychologically
tormented, nervous, sensitive Miss Quested was *superb*) stumbles across on
her bike ride into the countryside, and so many other moments which, for me,
certainly captured the visual spectacle of beauty and mystique that India
is -- all make this movie very memorable.
Supplementing these visuals is, of course, the *great* soundtrack, composed
by Maurice Jarre (I believe). While being primarily western orchestral
music, some tunes do have touches of Indian notes, and percussions, amidst
the lilting, strong theme score.
Unfortunately, not much of this comes across in E.M. Forster's novel,
leading me to conclude that all that was bad about the film came from the
book, while the movie, inspite of its faithful translation of Forster's
inconsistent and absurd Indians characters, was a superb cinematic and
musical experience.
--
Sanjay Chatterjee internet: scha...@eos.cair.du.edu
bitnet : schatter@ducair
uucp : {hao, ncar}!dunike!udenva!schatter
____________________________________________________________________________
rajeev.b.patil
>
> Another movie called "Passage to India" has all the imaginary evils done by
> Indians.
>
> India.
>
Because India is a free democratic country.
Rajeev
Lui Sieh
s...@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu (Kenneth Suh) writes:
> When I
> have a dark complexion, I do not receive the same service as when my
> complexion lightens. If I go to a Korean restaurant with Korean
> friends or if I use several Korean phrases, then the service improves.
> Has anyone else experienced this?
No not really but, my brother was explaining some unique features of
Hong Kong when he visisted there this past December.
He noted that if you speak Mandarin you may get served. And you may
not. If you speak Cantonese, then you will obviously be served and
served well.
-Lui
ARPA: ls2r+...@andrew.cmu.edu USnail: BOX 1178 Summer
BITNET: ls2r+asian%andrew@cmccvb 1060 Morewood Avenue
UUCP: ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!ls2r+ Pittsburgh, PA 15213
Above may or may not reflect the *true* feelings of the author
Sanjiva Prasad
> if you happen to be indian. This famous strain of Indian hospitality
> is exemplified by the air hostesses in Air India flights where they
> will smile and suck up to everyone except indians. Part of this
> problem came from the legacy of british rule - i.e. white is best.
I must say that my experiences with Air India hostesses belie
this portrayal. The hostesses on the flight I took this February
from Delhi (via London) to New York were courteous, pleasant,
efficient and agreeably refined. I was struck by their promptness
and initiative -- particularly the way they assisted the
illiterate old lady sitting next to me.
The only thing I can fault was quality of the OJ!
On the way to India, the hostesses weren't half as good, being
quite unimaginative; consequently, one of them almost burst into
tears when a passenger, convinced that he was being neglected
because he was Indian, threw a tantrum.
I had a reasonably comfortable flight in '85 too, the
hostesses on the Delhi-Dubai leg being excellent, although the
hostesses on the London-NYC leg were dreadful.
We should give credit when due. Compare this with the uniformly
TERRRRIBLE service I've found on American airlines, on Kuwait Air, and
on Iberia (of course, the last may have been due to language).
Regards,
Sanjiva
Net: san...@sbcs.sunysb.edu or ...!rutgers!philabs!sbcs!sanjiva
Dwight Joe
>I thought that there was a popular joke that came from Japan that went:
>
> Heaven is: JAPANESE WIFE, Chinese food, American wage, British house
> Hell is: AMERICAN WIFE, British food, Chinese wage, Japanese house
>
>...
You are right about them being a joke. I thought that I was the
only one who heard it.
My former research associate at another university was a foreign student
from the PRC. He told me half of your joke. He said that the joke goes
like the following:
Heaven is: 1) Japanese wife - Japanese women are loyalest to the marriage
2) Chinese food - Chinese food tastes the best
3) American money - American money buys the most
4) English house - English houses are the cleanest
Timothy J. Lee
|
|Interesting point--where does this darn stereotype of
|Asian men as effeminate or unassertive come from??
Yes, I'd like to know also.
|Is it historical?? Also, how many women actually
|do find them stereotypical? Maybe men are stereotyping
|Asian men as effeminate. Are white people promoting this
|stereotype, or Asians, or both??
Someone suggested looking at media portrayals of Asians, but most of
the images there of Asian men are neither effeminate nor overly masculine
(i.e. the media images have a neutral effect on this stereotype).
Timothy J. Lee
|
| Similarly, heterosexual Asians have long been aware of "Yellow
|Fever"--Causcasian men with a fetish for exotic Oriental women. I have
|often heard it said that "Oriental women make the best wives." (Rarely is
|this heard from the mouths of Asian men, incidentally.)
I thought that there was a popular joke that came from Japan that went:
Heaven is: JAPANESE WIFE, Chinese food, American wage, British house
Hell is: AMERICAN WIFE, British food, Chinese wage, Japanese house
Even if the Asian men do not have the attitude that "Oriental women make
the best wives", their PARENTS often do.
Sally Oey
> I have been trying to think back to most of the Asian males
> that I have known who were raised in the US, and most of them were
> would hardly consider them effeminate or non-assertive.
Interesting point--where does this darn stereotype of
Asian men as effeminate or unassertive come from??
Is it historical?? Also, how many women actually
do find them stereotypical? Maybe men are stereotyping
Asian men as effeminate. Are white people promoting this
stereotype, or Asians, or both??
Sally Oey
Hyunjune Seung
play _M. Butterfly_, discusses the sexual and political issues raised by
the play. In the process, he eloquently discusses many of the issues that
have been brought up here:
Gay friends have told me of a derogatory term used in their
community: "Rice Queen"--a gay Caucasian man primarily attracted to
Asians. In these relationships, the Asian virtually always plays the role
of the "woman"; the Rice Queen, culturally and sexually, is the "man."
This pattern of relationships had become so codified that, until recently,
it was considered unnatural for gay Asians to date one another. Such men
would be taunted with a phrase which implied they were lesbians.
Similarly, heterosexual Asians have long been aware of "Yellow
Fever"--Causcasian men with a fetish for exotic Oriental women. I have
often heard it said that "Oriental women make the best wives." (Rarely is
this heard from the mouths of Asian men, incidentally.) This mythology is
exploited by the Oriental mail-order bride trade which has flourished over
the past decade. American men can now send away for catalogues of
"obedient, domesticated" Asian women looking for husbands. Anyone who
believes such stereotypes are a thing of the past need look no further than
Manhattan cable television, which advertises call girls from "the exotic
east, where men are king; obedient girls, trained in the art of pleasure."
In these appeals, we see issues of racism and sexism intersect. The
catalogues and TV spots reject Western women for what they have
become--independent, assertive, self-possessed--in favor of a more
reactionary model--the pre-feminist, domesticated geisha girl.
That the Oriental woman is penultimately feminine does not of
course imply that she is always "good." For every Madonna there is a whore;
for every lotus blossom there is also a dragon lady. In popular culture,
"good" Asian women are those who serve the White protagonist in his battle
against her own people, often sleeping with him in the process.
Stallone's _Rambo II_, Cimino's _Year of the Dragon_, Clavell's _Shogun_,
Van Lustbader's _The Ninja_ are all familiar examples.
Now our considerations of race and sex intersect the issue of
imperialism. For this formula--good natives serve Whites, bad natives
rebel--is consistent with the mentality of colonialism. Because they are
submissive and obedient, good natives of both sexes necessarily take on
"feminine" characteristics in a colonialist world. Gunga Din's unfailing
devotion to his British master, for instance, is not so far removed from
Butterfly's slavish faith in Pinkerton.
It is reasonable to assume that influences and attitudes so
pervasively displayed in popular culture might also influence our policy
makers as they consider the world. The neo-Colonialist notion that good
elements of a native society, like a good woman, desire submission to the
masculine West speaks precisely to the heart of our foreign policy blunders
in Asia and elsewhere.
Kenneth Suh
whites and Indians in Indian restaurants and Air India.
I am Korean, and I have noted that when I eat at Korean restaurants,
the level of service varies. The level of service has varied depending
on whether I am perceived as being a Korean or not. If I am perceived
as being a Korean, the service is better and vice versa.
I was born on St. Croix in the Virgin Islands and grew up there. When I
arrived at Columbia, many people thought that I was Filipino. When I
have a dark complexion, I do not receive the same service as when my
complexion lightens. If I go to a Korean restaurant with Korean
friends or if I use several Korean phrases, then the service improves.
Has anyone else experienced this?
hemidemisemiquaver
>I am Korean, and I have noted that when I eat at Korean restaurants,
>the level of service varies. The level of service has varied depending
>on whether I am perceived as being a Korean or not. If I am perceived
>as being a Korean, the service is better and vice versa.
Ditto for me. Well, sort of. If I go to a Filipino restaurant (but there
aren't too many I know of in the Berkeley area), and I speak Tagalog, then I
find that I get better service. Much better service. The same goes for
a lot of the Chinese restaurants I've been to (these, I would conjecture,
are the ones where the waiters speak Mandarin, as I do not speak Cantonese).
There was one time, however, when I flew Philippine Airlines from Los Angeles
to Manila, and the shoe was on the other foot. The flight attendant in my
cabin seemed to be giving the *non-Filipinos* preferential treatment. That,
however, was an isolated case.
>Kenneth Suh PATH: s...@WATSUN.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU
>Columbia University P.O. ..!rutgers!columbia!watsun!suh
>P.O. Box 250039 s...@CUNIXC.BITNET
>New York, NY 10025
+----------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
byron c go laba...@web.berkeley.edu c60...@buddy.berkeley.edu
AB who-knows-what '9? [...]!ucbvax!web!laba-4kd [...]!ucbvax!buddy!c60b-vr
+----------------------+------------------------------------------------------+
Bret Jolly
>Asian men as effeminate or unassertive come from??
I think it came from someone in this newsgroup making it up. I'd
never heard of this alleged stereotype, and I've lived most of my life
in this country.
Gregory Kemnitz
There are two kinds of people in the world:
Those who think there are two kinds of people in the world,
and those who don't
Beware of digital thinking in an analog (Gods how analog!!!!) world.
Round-off error will get you every time.
This rather cryptic message was inspired by the yin-yang analysis earlier
of East versus West.
----------------------------------+--------------------------------------
Greg Kemnitz | Software without hardware is an idea.
kem...@Convergent.COM | Hardware without software is a space heater.
|
| --Unknown author
Jon Corelis
[regarding Passage to India and similar films/books on colonialism]
>The point is that in these movies India is nothing more than an
>exotic backdrop. All the gremlins are in the minds of the British.
>In this movie, no Indian character is developed - Godbole's Hinduism
>can be summed up in one line and Aziz is the quintessential wog, eager
>to please the British.
>
>I don't think we can complain too much about this, though. Afterall,
>it *was* a British production about the *British* in India. Naturally,
>its primary concern would be British reactions to India rather than
>Indian reactions to the presence of the British.
>
>Sridhar
>
This is a good point, and one which prompts me to ask the following
question for netters who come from a country with a recent (i.e., into
the 20th century) history of being under colonial rule:
What novels or films would you recommend as giving a true picture of
your country's experience of colonialism, from the point of view of your
own countrymen?
J.
--
Jon Corelis j...@lindy.stanford.edu
Stanford University BITNET: XB....@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU
Timothy J. Lee
|In <18...@princeton.Princeton.EDU>, r...@notecnirp.Princeton.EDU (Ramesh
|Sitaraman) writes:
||I am particularly interested in opinions about the last
||point. I am cross posting this to soc.singles to get some
||expert opinions !!!
|
|than your own? Are you down, brother? Are you down? :-) As you probably
|have noticed anyway, white people have a very limited understand of the
|subject.
Note that soc.culture.asian.american is not the only place that
Asian-Americans read or post. soc.singles readers and writers can
be Asian-American also.
| Most of their ideas have to do with dealing with "individuals" as
|an "individual" as the key to having a relationship, sexual or otherwise.
|Unfortunately, as most Asian-Americans know, this statement sounds
|wonderful but says nothing. It has no meaning. White people can deal with
|each other as "individuals" because they are all white or can treat each
|other as whites. For most Asian-Americans, the fact of being
|Asian-American is ever-present.
Non-racist people of any race can easily deal with people as individuals,
whether they are the same or a different race.
The quoted above text seems to assume one of the following:
1. all non-Asian-Americans are racist against all Asian-Americans
2. all Asian-Americans are racist against all non-Asian-Americans
3. both 1 and 2
| White people do not normally notice that they are white because
|they are the norm. Asian-Americans and minorities, on the other hand, when
|dealing with American society, are constantly reminded of their deviant
|nature. Asian-Americans are constantly aware of being Asian-American,
|every minute of the day, in every human contact.
Oh? I don't see too many people going around reminding Asians that they
are somehow deviant every minute of the day.
| White men say one thing, but the white media says the opposite.
|Asian-American women are bombarded with an insistent barrage of "beautiful"
|women: leggy, vivacious blonds; tall, sultry brunettes, reducing men of
|every color and creed to quivering puddles of lust. The message is
|everywhere, clear to everyone who lives in America, and even to many that
|don't. And we all believe it on one level or another--a beautiful woman is
|a white woman.
Until skin cancer started popping up, a beautiful woman was a woman
who darkened her skin by absorbing those cancer causing ultraviolet
rays.
Maybe that's why White men are attracted to Asian women: Asian women
are naturally the desirable color that White women have to risk skin
cancer for.
|[way to get a double eyelid or whatever]
Although I have heard of such cosmetic operations, I have never met
anyone who has actually done this to himself/herself.
Timothy J. Lee
>The truth of this is painfully obvious. How can you dislike the face of an
>Asian sister/brother, and not dislike the face in the mirror?
And if the face is ugly for reasons other than hair or skin color, or
nose shape, or eyelid shape or [features associated with a "race"]?
John L Bergquist
>each other as "individuals" because they are all white or can treat each
>other as whites. For most Asian-Americans, the fact of being
>Asian-American is ever-present.
>they are the norm. Asian-Americans and minorities, on the other hand, when
>dealing with American society, are constantly reminded of their deviant
>nature. Asian-Americans are constantly aware of being Asian-American,
>every minute of the day, in every human contact.
In case you are unaware, there are many Asian girls who will not even
think about going out with a white guy. When I like one of them, do
you think I am not painfully reminded that I am white? Do you think
I am not outraged at the racism? If I go to a party with a couple of friends
of mine and everyone there except me is Asian, do you think I feel comfortable?
Do you think I don't imagine people staring at me and making jokes about me and
muttering under their breath every time my back is turned? One girl at
a (virtually) all-Asian party I was at actually thought it was funny that
I was there and had to stop herself from laughing. I was very offended.
White people are reminded that they are white in a number of ways also.
For instance, when a non-white comedian makes a joke about white people,
he is funny. When a white comedian makes a joke about a non-white person,
he is a racist.
Many people of other races feel alot of hatred towards whites, because
they feel they are turned down for jobs because of their race, don't
get promotions because of their race, aren't covered by the media because
of their race, etc.
Many white people have a sub-conscious feeling of guilt because of this.
Maybe you think they deserve it? But its usually the non-racist whites
that feel the guilt. Racist whites don't care.
> For example, every time an Asian-American woman watches the
>television, goes to a movie, or reads a magazine, she is reminded that she
>is ugly.
I am reminded of that also. It just depends on whether you want to believe
when one race tells you they are superior. I don't believe it no matter
which race it comes from. I believe you when you say that many Asian-American
women believe this. I just think it's very sad.
>And we all believe it on one level or another--a beautiful woman is
>a white woman.
Yeah, and my level of belief is negative 10.
> But doesn't everybody have different standards of beauty? Beauty
>is in the eye of the beholder, right? Isn't it?
Absolutely right. My standards of beauty are obviously different from those
in the media.
>
>
> Some will object that I am making a wider argument about the
>cruelty of a society that makes a woman of any race disfigure herself to
^^^^^
>attain an impossible and arbitrary standard of beauty.
>
>Asian-American men, as well as Asian-American women, hear and
>believe the same message.
>
You imply that it is all the fault of the media. I say it only half the
fault of the media. The other half is the fault of the person who is
too willing to believe what the media says. There is more than one way
to react to pressures. One is to give in (which is sad). The other is
to rebell against it. Sometimes when I feel the media, or my relatives,
or whoever (sometimes it seems almost everyone) is trying to steer me
towards white women, I get angry. I have negative feelings. Maybe this
is why I am not (generally) attracted to them.
By the way. It seems that you are sending the message to Asian girls/women
that either they are not liked because they are Asian (and hence ugly by
media standards), or they are liked because men want to feel more masculine/
powerful/etc.
Don't you think that many guys like them just because they find them
attractive? Or do you think that everyone believes the media? If this
is what you think, then I think your view of the human race is just as
bad as the media's view of women.
John Bergquist
jo...@cory.Berkeley.EDU
Hyunjune Seung
Sitaraman) writes:
>I am particularly interested in opinions about the last
>point. I am cross posting this to soc.singles to get some
>expert opinions !!!
Homeboy, are you implying that white people's ideas are more expert
than your own? Are you down, brother? Are you down? :-) As you probably
have noticed anyway, white people have a very limited understand of the
subject. Most of their ideas have to do with dealing with "individuals" as
an "individual" as the key to having a relationship, sexual or otherwise.
Unfortunately, as most Asian-Americans know, this statement sounds
wonderful but says nothing. It has no meaning. White people can deal with
each other as "individuals" because they are all white or can treat each
other as whites. For most Asian-Americans, the fact of being
Asian-American is ever-present.
White people do not normally notice that they are white because
they are the norm. Asian-Americans and minorities, on the other hand, when
dealing with American society, are constantly reminded of their deviant
nature. Asian-Americans are constantly aware of being Asian-American,
every minute of the day, in every human contact.
For example, every time an Asian-American woman watches the
television, goes to a movie, or reads a magazine, she is reminded that she
is ugly.
Ugly?
White men say one thing, but the white media says the opposite.
Asian-American women are bombarded with an insistent barrage of "beautiful"
women: leggy, vivacious blonds; tall, sultry brunettes, reducing men of
every color and creed to quivering puddles of lust. The message is
everywhere, clear to everyone who lives in America, and even to many that
don't. And we all believe it on one level or another--a beautiful woman is
a white woman.
But doesn't everybody have different standards of beauty? Beauty
is in the eye of the beholder, right? Isn't it?
The following poem is taken from Janice Mirikitani's collection of
poetry _Shedding Silence_ (1987):
Recipe
Round Eyes
Ingredients: scissors, Scotch magic transparent tape,
eyeliner--water based, black.
Optional: false eyelashes
Cleanse face thoroughly.
For best results, powder entire face, including eyelids.
(lighter shades suited to total effect desired)
With scissors, cut magic tape 1/16" wide, 3/4"-1/2" long--
depending on length of eyelid.
Stick firmly onto mid-upper eyelid area.
(looking down in to handmirror facilitates finding
adequate surface)
If using false eyelashes, affix first on lid, folding any
excess lid over the base of eyelash with glue.
Paint black eyeliner on tape and entire lid.
Do not cry.
What Mirikitani is referring to was a familiar rite of passage for
many Asian-American females--taping the eyelid in order to temporarily gain
the "double eyelid" that Japanese do not have. Nowadays, this painful rite
of passage is on the decline. Nowadays, women simply get plastic surgery.
As I have heard, with a good surgeon, the constructed eyelids are
indistinguishable from the natural ones. With a bad surgeon, the eyelids
can be grossly disfigured.
To say that a "double eyelid" is beautiful is arbitrary--almost
ridiculous. But just as arbitrary is to say that long legs, large breasts,
light skin and a long nose is beautiful. It is more than arbitrary; it is
cultural tyranny. The ironic thing is that the Japanese are one of the
most homogeneous races in the world. For these women to live up to the
American ideal of beauty is patently impossible. With modern medical
science, however, the impossible is within reach. Asian-American women are
encouraged to paint, carve and disfigure their bodies in order to reach a
racist ideal.
Some will object that I am making a wider argument about the
cruelty of a society that makes a woman of any race disfigure herself to
attain an impossible and arbitrary standard of beauty. And indeed I
am...yet there is something qualitatively different about an Asian-American
woman trying to make herself more white.
Malcolm X, in describing his own first homemade conk, a horribly
painful method of straightening kinky hair with actual lye:
This was my first really big step toward self-degradation:
when I endured all of that pain, literally burning my flesh to have
it look like a white man's hair. I had joined that multitude of
Negro men and women in America who are brainwashed into believing
that the black people are "inferior"--and white people
"superior"--that they will even violate and mutilate their
God-created bodies to try to look "pretty" by white standards."
Indeed, more important than the way others treat us is the way we
treat ourselves. More important than external stereotypes are internal
stereotypes. Asian-American men, as well as Asian-American women, hear and
believe the same message. Some Asian-American men "simply" find
Asian-American women unattractive. White women, to them, become a symbol
of status. In reinforcing the external message, they encourage their
Asian-American sisters to hate and disfigure themselves.
When you realize how easily your private feelings and urges can and
have been conditioned, it is both a curse and a revelation. A curse,
because never again can you take anything about yourself for granted, never
again can you act "naturally." A revelation, because with self-knowledge
comes power.
Malcolm X brutally and unflinchingly pointed out the connection
between one's outside and one's inside.
"You know yourself that we have been a people who hated our African
characteristics. We hated our heads, we hated the shape of our
nose, we wanted one of those long dog-like noses, you know; we
hated the color of our skin, hated the blood of Africa that was in
our veins. And in hating our features and our skin and our blood,
why, we had to end up hating ourselves. And we hated ourselves.
The truth of this is painfully obvious. How can you dislike the face of an
Asian sister/brother, and not dislike the face in the mirror?
Kwonjune Seung
Kenneth Suh
>better than they do English and are thus better able to understand what the
>customer wants if the customer speaks the appropriate language.
Ha Ha Ha!!!
Whenever I go to a Korean restaurant, I am served ban-chan(a general
term for the side dishes) upon being seated. It is pretty obvious that
Koreans at a table next to mine receive some ban-chan that I do not.
BTW, they don't ask for it. I have to ask for it in Korean and upon
doing so, I will receive the other types as well.
The waitresses also try to push the kalbi which has been cooked in a
frying pan in the kitchen on me instead of cooking it over coals at my
table. There is a definite difference in the flavor of the meat which
should be barbequed.
There are many stories I can tell but so little time.
/ken
Brian Yamauchi
>In article <15...@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> jo...@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (John L Bergquist) writes:
>>Many of the Asians at this virtually all-Asian party were born in
>>America. They were not in a foreign country. I would say they were
>>more concerned with being with people of their own race than being
>>with people from their own country.
>
>I think that the point was that people of any ethnic group (especially
>if it they are in a minority) feel the need to be with other members of
>such a group in a homogenous setting.
Speak for yourself. Personality and interests, not race, are the
determining factors in the people whom I like to socialize with. This
was also true for the other Asian-American students I knew in college.
(Asian foreign students were different, but that's a separate issue.)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Brian Yamauchi University of Rochester
yama...@cs.rochester.edu Computer Science Department
_______________________________________________________________________________
Kenneth Suh
>In article <17...@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu> s...@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Kenneth Suh) writes:
>>I think that the point was that people of any ethnic group (especially
>>if it they are in a minority) feel the need to be with other members of
>>such a group in a homogenous setting.
>
>Speak for yourself. Personality and interests, not race, are the
>determining factors in the people whom I like to socialize with. This
>was also true for the other Asian-American students I knew in college.
>(Asian foreign students were different, but that's a separate issue.)
>
I guess that you (and some the other Asian-American students you knew in
college) did not share any similarities and cultural interests. If this
was the case, then that is sad. It is sad because you have lost the
traditions of your ancestors.
Before I attended Columbia, I grew up on an island in which we were the
only Korean family. The island was approximately 60% Black, 30% white,
8% Puerto Rican, and 2% other (Phillipinos, Chinese, Koreans, etc.)
I grew up without speaking or having Korean spoken to me. I knew none
of my ancestors traditions. I had my own identity as an individual. My
friends were and still are both poor and rich, Black and white. Then it
was time to go to college.
My parents were adamant that I go to Columbia. The reasons were as
follows:
1) Ivy League school
2) New York City
3) Koreans, lots of Koreans...
I countered:
1) University of Chicago is top notch and U. Penn is also Ivy
League
2) Philadelphia and Boston also have lots to offer
3) Who cares about Koreans?
Nevertheless, the money was going to Columbia, I would follow.
My orientation group at Columbia turned out to be composed of 2 Black
girls, 1 white girl, and three Korean guys. In addition, our
orientation advisor was a Korean guy. I met some Koreans and they all
thought I was Filipino or Hispanic. No problem. However, most of the
FOB's (Fresh Off the Boat) Koreans ragged on me for not knowing Korean.
I ignored them. I felt that it was not my fault since my parents never
taught me.
I played volleyball. I guess word got around that I was pretty decent
because one day some Korean guys asked me to play with their team which
would eventually go to a Korean volleyball tournament at MIT. I started
to play with them. I quickly became their friends and gained the
friendship of the President of the KSA (Korean Student Associtation). I
began to attend all of the KSA functions and help out. In February, I
was elected the Vice-President of the KSA. I would also work on
Spectrum, the Korean student magazine.
My involvement continued. I learned about my acestors and their
traditions. There was a wealth of knowledge and strength I could rely
upon.
Why did all of this happen?
First semester of my freshmen year, I lived on a floor which had only
ten people. 6 guys were Jewish (4 orthodox, 1 conservative and 1
reformed), 1 guy was from NC (this was his first time away from home), 1
guy was an Aryan, 1 guy was Arabian, and myself (a Korean).
In my long discussions with the Jewish guys (we covered all types of
topics which ranged from the problems of the Middle East to why they
cannot eat cheeseburgers.), I posed the question of whether or not they
would marry an non-Jew. It was their answer that made me ponder.
The answer was they would only marry another Jew. The reasons were that
they respected their traditions and they wanted their children to grow
up with their faith and culture. If they were to marry a Catholic, then
would their child go to temple on Saturday and church on Sunday? How
old does a child have to be to make his own decision? Won't his life be
screwed up if the parents cannot agree on one religion over the other?
Of course life is not easy but for them to marry another Jew would make
life easier. Some people might consider this racism. I don't. I
switched from dating women older than me (I used to go out with a women
who was 21 when I was 18) to dating Asians and then only Koreans who
were my age or younger than me. The reason being that I shouldn't marry
someone older than me if she was Korean.
I have not turned my back on non-Korean friends. In fact, I try to
share my culture with them. What is interesting to note is that all of
my friends who are not Korean have their own cultures or traditions
which they hold dear to them.
Have any Koreans out there eaten kimchi in their dorm room while in
college and have someone walking around trying to find out where the
foul stench was coming from? ;^)
Well, that is almost my life story...
Chandru Krishnan
Passage to India was lousy because Indian characters were... caricatures
promoted as "real" Indians. Godbole was particularly offensive as the "spirit-
ual Hindu" without material concerns.A piece of orientalist blige.Notice how
the mild Hindu in him tries to calm Aziz down at the end.
Culture is conceived as a static thing.The British "err", not because they
plunder the country for 200 years and prevent its development in all spheres
of life from taking off,but because they fail to understand the Indian
culture!
Indiana Jones was offensive junk but Gandhi had its problems,too.It was
easily the best of the foreign movies about an Indian theme,but the message
you get is that it is wrong to fight imperialism,especially British imperialism,
with violence.Gandhism is the only way.How very convenient for the British!!
The British got out of their Indian venture with amazingly few lives lost
(about 25 between 1905-1947) but Indians died in their hundreds of thousands,
largely because of the selfsame British.
And it's not only what you see in all these movies,but what you don't see.
You never see Indians as real,believable people who do the same things
everyone else does and react in the same way.Britishers and Americans love
stereotypes and one-dimensional characters when it comes to other peoples.
The British are enamoured of such characters vis-a-vis Indians,particularly.
.
Chandru Krishnan
Regarding "Jewel in the crown", I wonder how many _Indians_
watched it from start to finish. I remember getting disgusted
after one-and-a-half episodes. The Indian characters were terrible,
including Hari Kumar.The British just love to play on this idea of
the "anglicized" Indian coming back from Britain and feeling completely
alienated from India and in this case they went overboard.It would be
interesting to know whether any Indian could identify with Kumar;he seemed
to be a British perception of what an England-returned Indian was, rather
than the reality.
The British are seen as the victims of India's various problems,rather
than its active perpetrators.There is no mention of the nefarious British
role in stoking,if not actually creating the Hindu-Muslim problem.It is taken
as a given,for which the British must tread carefully.The ending was gratuitous
enough with the glorious Brits departing while their brown successors gave
vent to their medieval religious feelings in a savage bloodbath.
Salman Rushdie said of these movies,including Passage to India,that they
were not Indian at all,but British with a little dash of pepper.
A more poignant remark came from a British movie critic who wrote that,
in their attempt to sanitize or glorify or even apologize for their
imperial past,the British are forgetting that it is for the Indians to
forgive the British, not for the British to forgive themselves. Beautiful
words!
Jim Ryan
Why Seung's Article Was Greatly Misundertood By Some
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
While I agree with most of your reasons for supporting Seung's argument,
I don't think people MISUNDERSTOOD it, I think they DISAGREED with it.
>> Understandably, Whites will have difficulty with Seung's article. It
Give Whites a little more credit. Although Whites can never know what
it is like to be a minority, many try their best to understand. By the
way, I'm sure many Asians had difficulty with the article as well.
>> that get posted are usually from the flamers, not the supporters. All
>> the Whites responded negatively. The few supporters were from Asian
>> Americans.
ALL THE WHITES??? No, not true. I didn't respond negatively, some Whites
didn't respond at all. Incidentally, some Asians responded negatively, too.
Jim.
Kenneth Suh
The following is from Nobuya Higashiyama. If you would like to send
mail to him personally, then mail it to me and I will forward it to
him.
==================== MESSAGE FOLLOWS ====================
I'm at a node where I can read the messages posted on the net, but am unable
to post to it, and the only outside EMS facility we have is via BITNET (the
management here is very worried about possible virus infection via the net).
I've been following the discussions on s.c.a.a for a couple weeks now, and
having read your latest posting, I thought I'd share my *short* life story,
which you may find interesting. Feel free to post this to the net if you
think it's relevant, but please leave out my company's name (they're very
touchy about this).
I was born in Japan, and lived there until I was about 11 or 12, when I came
to the States. My parents are both Japanese, and they've always stressed the
Japanese culture as something to be valued in the home. Japanese was the
"official" language at home, even though, after a few years, I've found it
much easier to converse in English (my folks would speak to me in Japanese,
and I'd reply in English - must have been some sight to outsiders). As a
teen-ager, I was not very interested in Japanese culture - in fact, I went out
of my way to forget my cultural roots.
I think the reason some Asian-Americans would rather forget their roots may be
the same reason that I had; it took me years of introspection and honest
soul-searching, but I found it. That is, I wanted to be just like other
Americans.
I have memories of being made fun of in school, where other kids abused me
verbally and physically because I was "different". I used to come home crying
a lot, and at one point it got to be so bad that my parents had to intervene.
As I grew up, these "incidents" became less frequent, but never did go away
completely (in fact, even today, some folks go out of their way to make me
feel "different"). Though this may not be a universal experience, I suspect
that many of us Asian-Americans have had a similar experience. What this
traumatic experience caused me to do was to pretend in my own mind that I was
just like all other kids. This in turn made me feel ashamed/angry every time
there was a reminder that I was not. I did not wish to be seen with my
parents, and I avoided contacts with other Asians; to do so would have
reminded me that I was just like them - an outsider.
I was not able to face this honestly until much later (in my early 20's), and
in the process of looking at myself introspectly, I've decided that I was
being my own worst enemy. There's nothing wrong with being "different", and
others can harm my self-esteem only if I let them. This allowed me to view my
background with open mind, and lo and behold, I found a rich cultural heritage
in me that I've pretended did not exist.
This was made very evident to me when I traveled back to Japan on a company
business a several months ago. Even though I was away from Japan for years, I
found that I fit in very well. Quoting another poster, I found that "parts of
me that do not work very well here worked perfectly" in Japan. It's really
an amazing experience - I could actually pick up non-verbal messages from
other people's expressions, or understand their feeling just by the way things
were said. I could do so with the people here in the States, of course, but
not in the same degree. I truly felt that I was "home".
This also made me rethink whom I may wish to marry in the future. I find that
many of my values and cultural heritages that I now hold dear are not to be
found in American young ladies that I've dated - which explains why I'm still
single. I think I would rather marry someone who values them also, which I
think leads to the conclusion that I would probably end up marrying a Japanese
young lady. I know that I've narrowed my field down quite a bit (esp. since I
will only marry a young lady who shares my religious values, and an
evangelical Christian Japanese women are in very short supply), but I'm sure
I'm doing the right thing.
Well, I hope this little tid-bit from my life has been worthwhile to the
understanding of your culture. I applaud your efforts to hold your culture in
high esteem, and I will be doing so likewise.
Nobuya
P.S. I'm also having problems with getting my friends to like my favorite
foods. They *still* refuse to go out for a sushi/sashimi dinner ...
==================== END OF MESSAGE ====================
Eugene Miya
I don't think the majority of us conceive of racism as an all or nothing
thing. I believe we all think it a matter of degree, we only have to
look at the Black experience: first the problm was the Deep South, then
parts of the North (why the South was more integrated!). This issue of
degree reached its apex with Spencer Tracy's last film: Guess Who's
Coming to Dinner? Interracial dating (B&W) made covers fo Life magazine
(no more). The question maybe to find the specific degrees: the class
one being "would you want you daughter[typically]/son to marry one?"
There are probably other more subtle, quiet degrees, and other "noiser"
degrees. I think there is alot of subconscious racism. That's okay,
I don't don't think most of us expect overnight change. And I feel
sorry of the subconscious baggage I carry around with myself. Yeah,
the media is something of a problem. A problem for the next generation
of news hackers.
One striking image I recall when growing up (it really hit my younger sisters)
came in a Collier's Yearbook which we got around 1963/64. It had a photo
of a tall blond maniquin in a kimono in a Japanese store (other maniquins,
Japanese were much shorter, and also in kimonos). That influences little
girls (more so than) and little boys. Kids the impressionable.
Anyways, I think its just a matter of finding the discrete degrees as
a gauge of progress. As an additional note: I got a phone call from my
Mom and learned my sister is getting married next spring. Oh, BTW, her
future husband is Cascausian. Poor fellow! Can't understand how ANYONE
one could stand my little brat sister ! 8) Did I say sibbling rivalary?
Another gross generalization from
--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eug...@aurora.arc.nasa.gov
resident cynic at the Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers:
"You trust the `reply' command with all those different mailers out there?"
"If my mail does not reach you, please accept my apology."
{ncar,decwrl,hplabs,uunet}!ames!eugene
Live free or die.
Ed Hall
>In article <17...@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu> dated 24-Jul-89,
>s...@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Kenneth Suh) writes:
>> I guess that you (and some the other Asian-American students you knew in
>> college) did not share any similarities and cultural interests. If this
>> was the case, then that is sad. It is sad because you have lost the
>> traditions of your ancestors.
>
>immigrants to lose touch with their own roots?
>
>
>-Lui
I think it really depends upon just what is meant by ``roots.'' There
are many things I find of value in the culture of my (sansei)
fiancee's ansestors. I doubt we'd be together if it weren't for her
Japanese cultural heritage emphasizing close family ties, teamwork,
and social conciousness (it's hard to define that last one...). On
the other hand, there are many things she has acquired from American
culture which are just as vital. She is every bit as American as I
am.
When it comes to things specifically Japanese--food, religion,
contemporary culture, etc.--I have long had more interest than she
has, which is quite curious because her knowledge and interest in
things English--my ancestral background--is far greater than mine.
Yet there is something unspoken that she has acquired in terms of
values that I hope she never gives up, and which, should we be blessed
with children, I hope they also acquire. Assimilation is not an
all-or-nothing thing, and furthermore I don't think that adaptation is
solely the business of immigrants--there is much that America has yet
to learn from the cultures of its immigrants, and I very much hope
that Asian-Americans will leave their indelible mark on our shared (as
distinguished from our private) culture.
At some basic level the ``melting pot'' is a myth. We all carry with
us different things from our backgrounds and our experiences which
make us special. Our error is in thinking something is wrong with
this.
-Ed Hall
edh...@rand.org
[BTW, I've found the discussion of European-American men's fondness
for Asian-American women a bit amusing--I'd never even dated an
Asian-American before I met my fiancee at age 34. I guess that
with age comes the feeling that appearance is quite a minor matter,
though I'd be lying if I said that my future spouse was at all
unattractive to me...]
Sally Oey
> The article* would have been much better had it been written in a
> non-offensive way. The way the article was written, it seems
> that the author was racist against Whites.
*Kwonjune's article "Truth and Beauty"
Well, I'd like to know exactly WHERE you can say "it seems that
the author was racist against Whites". Please point out specifics.
Especially if you're going to accuse people of being racist.
Sally Oey
Lui Sieh
> I guess that you (and some the other Asian-American students you knew in
> college) did not share any similarities and cultural interests. If this
> was the case, then that is sad. It is sad because you have lost the
> traditions of your ancestors.
Why must it be sad? What's the reason that it must be a bad thing for
immigrants to lose touch with their own roots?
-Lui
ARPA: ls2r+...@andrew.cmu.edu USnail: CMU
BITNET: ls2r+asian%andrew@cmccvb P.O Box 242
UUCP: ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!ls2r+ Pittsburgh, PA 15213
Above may or may not reflect the *true* feelings of the author
tim...@ernie.berkeley.edu
A number of other people have already pointed out that they were
offended by the generalizations made in that article ("that whites
can never understand [whatever]" and such).
Consider the following generalization: "Blacks are stupid." Would
you consider that to be a racist statement?
Jim Ryan
>of crap? There are lots of white <males, non-jewish, not-otherwise
>distingushed> here who are VERY aware of what it's like to be
>a minority.
>
>I'm one.
^^^^^^^^
Please tell us how you obtained such enlightenment! (Try to be brief.)
Jim.
Todd
>s...@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Kenneth Suh) writes:
>> I guess that you (and some the other Asian-American students you knew in
>> college) did not share any similarities and cultural interests. If this
>> was the case, then that is sad. It is sad because you have lost the
>> traditions of your ancestors.
>
>Why must it be sad? What's the reason that it must be a bad thing for
>immigrants to lose touch with their own roots?
>
>-Lui
From a very practicle point of view, losing touch with one's roots can
make it very difficult to communicate with your relatives. I have
many friends who cannot speak to their relatives because they do not
speak the same language(s). They also do not understand the customs
of their relatives creating a lot of strain between family members.
Please note that I am not saying you need to live by any particular
culture, but I think knowing the language and customs can be
important.
Carrying this one step further-I believe that knowing other cultures
and languages is wonderful, and to ignore an opportunity to learn
another culture/language is a terrible waste.
-Todd
Tom Chu
>immigrants to lose touch with their own roots?
>
>
>-Lui
It's sad because you lose all the history and tradtions of your
family. I believe that losing touch of one's one roots results in a
snowball effect. Eventually, your great grand children will not know
anything about their past. I think that this will result in a void
about one's past. Everyone comes from someplace.
This looks like rambling to me, but I don't really know how to express
it in any other way.
Tom
hamir.malia
>In article <59...@gssc.UUCP>, aj...@gssc.UUCP (Ajit Sanzgiri) writes:
>> .....
>> Ajit Sanzgiri
>
> ....
>Any comments.
>
>Swamy.
First, the article by Ajit Sanzgiri contained some superb illustrations
(culled from various movies/TV shows) of the Indian image in the American
media. The comments made after each illustration were truly apposite.
I really believe that the aim of film making being profit, the director
is going to try his/her best to portray an image (of Asians) that is
most palatable to the average American movie audience. This image for
Indians is unfortunately one of poverty, ignorance, extreme religiosity,
superstition, stupidity and finally - much in contrast but very much in
vogue of late - that of nerdiness. This, in their opinion, is the realistic
image!! Sometimes, as was pointed out by Mr. Sanzgiri, a movie like Gandhi
would depict a rather outstanding portrayal but one that is not be taken
entirely seriously because it is one of those out-of-touch-with-reality
situations.
The next question then is - why is the average audience much entertained
by such untrue depictions be they of the former or latter variety. The
answer to this is the "Comfort Factor". This is a measure of how comfortable
the audience feels with the portrayal of a certain event or character on
the screen and how much would it motivate the person watching to recommend
it to his/her peers.
Time and again it has been stated that movies are essentially 'dreams', and
the producers, 'dream merchants'. The stark reality is that the average
Indian is nothing like what is portrayed in these movies and though a
strain of the character here and there may sound/look familiar, the Indian
that one runs into at the workplace, school, etc. is far more intelligent,
smart and competent than the one shown on the silver screen.
However, if the director did decide to show a more realistic portrayal
of the Indian immigrant, he would have to include people like Dr. Bose
(of Bose speakers fame), Jugi Tandon (of Tandon Computers), Vinod Khosla
(The founder of Sun Computers), Dr. Narendra Karmakar (of the 'algorithm'
fame), Zubin Mehta (ex-conductor of the NY Philharmonic), ... the list goes
on. In addition it would have to account for the 2400s and the 800s on
the GREs and the GMATs which oh so often go unmentioned and the truly skewed
representation of Indians in top graduate engineering, science, business
and medical schools (in spite of heavy odds - and believe me, the odds are
aplenty). In addition there are the thousands with modest eductions but
tremendous business acumen who have succeeded in carving out very successful
businesses and comfortable lifestyles in some of the most competitive of
American industries.
But if such a movie/show did surface then can you imagine one movie-
goer recommending the film to another. It would have to go something
like :
"You know the Indian who demolished the grading curve in our class ....."
or
" Remember the guy who got promoted to manager last week ...."
or
"That prof in the movie was just like the profs who teach eight of our
nine courses ..."
or
"Those folks in our movie are just like our neighbors .. yes the ones
with the benz and jag ... "
Now am I getting carried away?...Maybe ... but my point is that if
realistic depictions were the norm for such portrayals then the movie
has as much chance of being a box office hit as an Indian has of heading
the KKK (Whoops, I am getting into my cynical mood again!)
In conclusion : Until an Indian (motivated by other things besides pelf)
takes to directing movies in Hollywood just expect to
see similar portrayals of Indians and everything else
that is Indian, but just between the 80 Billion ( ;-) )
of us we know what is realistic and what is not, don't we ?
P.S. : I realize that the typical NRI is not a statistically correct
representation of the Indian population but then the movies/TV
shows do not claim to be doing anything different.
Sally Oey
> * I was born in Japan
> * lived in Korea
> * where I eat lunch, I am often the only one who doesn't speak
> Chinese
> * My parents have lived in Japan, Korea,
> * My father spent a year in Vietnam and one in Northern Greenland
> * My sister lived on an Arab kibutz (spelling)
> * My sister lived in northern Thailand
> It is easy to understand a "minority" - just become one ;-)
It's certainly true that many white people understand many aspects
of "being a minority"--and I think that's very important.
However, I think it's equally important for everyone to recognize
that there are some aspects of being a minority that hardly
any whites will ever understand. I mean specifically the
issues of being a minority in the United States. There are
similarities to being a minority in an Asian country, etc.
But there are differences too.
*I* can never understand what it is like to be a minority in
Korea, or China, or probably France, etc. to the same extent
that I can understand what it is to be one in the US.
Conversely, I don't think Todd or other white people can really understand
what it is like to be one in the US. I don't hold this against
anyone. I just think it should be recognized. And I think that
white people should do a lot more listening to minorities instead
of accusing people of racism, and reverse discrimination _precisely_
for that reason. How can one give an opinion when one is significantly
less informed?
NOTE: I MADE GENERALIZATIONS.
Sally Oey
alice!jj
> Why Seung's Article Was Greatly Misundertood By Some
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>While I agree with most of your reasons for supporting Seung's argument,
>I don't think people MISUNDERSTOOD it, I think they DISAGREED with it.
it contained a couple of absolute falsehoods, one of which
you insisted on perpetuating...
>Although Whites can never know what
>it is like to be a minority, many try their best to understand.
Why, oh WHY do people insist on posting this misbegotten bit
of crap? There are lots of white <males, non-jewish, not-otherwise
distingushed> here who are VERY aware of what it's like to be
a minority.
I'm one.
Given that I exist, your absolute statement is proven to
be false. I'm hardly a unique individual in this society,
therefore I submit that there are very, very many white
males of no particular distinction who have the same
experience.
STOP SPREADING THIS BIGOTRY ABOUT WHITES. (yes, I know it was
a white person who said this, I'll be the first to admit
that SOME whites are culturally blind.)
--
By the arm that bends the bow, *Mail to j...@alice.att.com or alice!jj
By the arm that lays them low, *HASA, Atheist Curmudgeon Division
By the arm that blocks the blow, *Copyright alice!jj 1989, all rights reserved, except
To win our Liberty. *transmission by USENET and like free facilities granted.
Jim Ryan
I still don't understand the White-Americans out there who claim they know
what it is like to be a minority in the same way that an Asian-American is a
minority. Some people mentioned the following experiences:
- Living in a foreign country where the majority race is not
White.
- Belonging to a small religious group in America.
- Growing up in a wealthy neighborhood in a poor family.
- Living in a neighborhood/going to a school where the majority
race is not White.
These experiences no doubt have a great impact on our lives. We DO find out
what it feels like to be a minority. We DO feel the pain of prejudice and
discrimination. We ARE sometimes the target of racial violence. In this
sense, a White-American who has such an experience CAN understand what it is
like to be a minority.
BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT
^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^
He/She still has no idea what it is like to be an Asian-American (or Black-
American, for that matter). Here's why:
The White-Americans who experience these things always have White America to
fall back on. They always has a place within reach where they can
belong, where they can escape the discrimination. Asian-Americans have
no such safety cushion. They live their lives knowing that (barring
moving back to their country of descent) they will always face the
discrimination, prejudice and pain of racism. For them it is a lifetime
sentence, not just an educational experience. When they go to find a
career, they will be reminded of it. When they go to buy a house,
they will be reminded of it, in short, as long as they remain in
America, they cannot escape it.
In addition, being a racial minority is worse that being a religious
or economic one, because it is virtually impossible to hide your
race (although, sadly, some try).
Some people may say that the argument goes both ways. If a White-American
can always return to America, why can't an Asian return to Asia? Well, the
answer is simple! This is their home! They don't want to go back.
In many cases, it is impossible for them to return. For a
White-AMERICAN, the safety-net is always there, consciously or
subconsciously, wherever he/she travels in the world. The White-American is
accepted in his/her homeland, the Asian-American is not. This is the
key. ^^^^^^^^
I hope this has been informative. To conclude, I will say that I'm not
denying that a White-American can EXPERIENCE THE FEELING OF BEING A
MINORITY, and this is tremendously important. However, as long as he/she
lives in America, even though he/she may spend parts of his/her life in
foreign countries, he/she cannot know what it feels like to be an
Asian-American.
Jim Ryan
Harvard University
Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations
P.S. - Do you approve/disapprove of all the He/She, Him/Her, His/Her stuff?
Reply via E-MAIL.