Moodle cease and desist.
Tony Whitmore
a worrying story about Moodle:
"A friend received a cease and desist letter from someone at moodle.com
moaning about his use of 'Moodle Services', 'Moodle hosting', 'Moodle
training', 'Moodle Consulting' and 'Moodle installation'. It appears
they have a wide ranging trademark. While I understand there is a
benefit to having commercial 'Moodle partners', Moodle has it's roots in
the open source community - it seems rather short termed and defeating
to restrict the online visibility of Moodle related resources."
The full post is at: http://www.codepoets.co.uk/node/193
I know that the idea of Moodle partners has been discussed here before,
but such behaviour really does seem to restrict the ability of companies
to use Moodle on their website (and hence search engines won't pick them
up). Yes, I'm aware of the need to protect a Trademark to keep it valid,
but still...
Tony
Miles Berry
There's nothing to stop them making money out of Moodle.
They can in fact take the whole of the Moodle code and sell this under
whatever name they choose, other than "Moodle", subject to the terms of
the GPL.
The trademark is Moodle's way of maintaining some quality standards for
those providing commercial Moodle services under that name, as well as
generating some revenue stream for the core developers themselves.
Most of the folk who get one of these cease and desist letters are are,
I suspect, interested in using the high profile "Moodle" brand for their
commercial advantage, rather than contributing to the ongoing
development efforts, either directly or through financial support.
Miles.
>
> >
>
>
--
Miles Berry
Deputy Head, St Ives School, Haslemere
http://stiveshaslemere.com
http://elgg.net/mberry/weblog
Tony Whitmore
> Tony Whitmore wrote:
>> David Goodwin of WolvesLUG, Pale Purple etc. made a blog post containing
>> a worrying story about Moodle:
>>
>> "A friend received a cease and desist letter from someone at moodle.com
>> moaning about his use of 'Moodle Services', 'Moodle hosting', 'Moodle
>> training', 'Moodle Consulting' and 'Moodle installation'. It appears
>> they have a wide ranging trademark. While I understand there is a
>> benefit to having commercial 'Moodle partners', Moodle has it's roots in
>> the open source community - it seems rather short termed and defeating
>> to restrict the online visibility of Moodle related resources."
> There's nothing stopping people using Moodle code on their websites.
> There's nothing to stop them making money out of Moodle.
> They can in fact take the whole of the Moodle code and sell this under
> whatever name they choose, other than "Moodle", subject to the terms of
> the GPL.
Of course, but that's not what's happening here.
> Most of the folk who get one of these cease and desist letters are are,
> I suspect, interested in using the high profile "Moodle" brand for their
> commercial advantage, rather than contributing to the ongoing
> development efforts, either directly or through financial support.
That's something of a sweeping generalisation, isn't it?
Being unable to list the software you're prepared to support on your
website with coughing up a fee sounds incredibly backward to me.
Personally I would resent any project that tried to take away my freedom
in this way.
Tony
Tom Hoffman
>
> David Goodwin of WolvesLUG, Pale Purple etc. made a blog post containing
> a worrying story about Moodle:
>
> "A friend received a cease and desist letter from someone at moodle.com
> moaning about his use of 'Moodle Services', 'Moodle hosting', 'Moodle
> training', 'Moodle Consulting' and 'Moodle installation'. It appears
> they have a wide ranging trademark. While I understand there is a
> benefit to having commercial 'Moodle partners', Moodle has it's roots in
> the open source community - it seems rather short termed and defeating
> to restrict the online visibility of Moodle related resources."
>
> The full post is at: http://www.codepoets.co.uk/node/193
The devil is in the details here. The example of Zope is useful.
There is some contention and stress over who controls and exactly how
you can use the "Zope" trademark, but it seems to come down to more or
less not using "Zope" in the name of your business or website. But
you certainly can say, "we offer Zope hosting." That seems like a
reasonable approach.
If Moodle.com is literally contending that you can't say "we offer
Moodle hosting and services," without paying them, that strikes me as
entirely foolish and counterproductive. But I'd have to know more
about the specific situation.
--Tom
John Ingleby
{-snip-]
>
> Being unable to list the software you're prepared to support on your
> website with coughing up a fee sounds incredibly backward to me.
> Personally I would resent any project that tried to take away my freedom
> in this way.
particular none regarding any reasons given (or not) for asking his
friend to stop using the name Moodle.
Also, I can't find any references on the Moodle.com website regarding
fees to become a Moodle Partner. One only has to provide some evidence
of competence.
John
****
Tony Whitmore
> On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 18:46 +0100, Tony Whitmore wrote:
> {-snip-]
>> Being unable to list the software you're prepared to support on your
>> website with coughing up a fee sounds incredibly backward to me.
>> Personally I would resent any project that tried to take away my freedom
>> in this way.
> I agree with Tom, David Goodwin's post gave no details, and in
> particular none regarding any reasons given (or not) for asking his
> friend to stop using the name Moodle.
I've now seen the e-mail that was sent. The "site" in question was
actually just a blog posting that had the text "Moodle services" in it!
The C&D letter is basically just a form letter and I half suspect it was
sent by an automated system that searches pages for certain strings.
To quote the e-mail:
"It’s come to our attention that your site is using our Moodle trademark
without permission. "Moodle" is legally trademarked to describe Moodle
commercial services, as that is something that only official Moodle
Partners are permitted to do.
http://moodle.com/partners/
Please remove all references to Moodle services, Moodle hosting, Moodle
training, Moodle consulting, Moodle installation, and other such terms
from your website immediately and let us know when it’s done."
Whilst I don't doubt that they have the legal right to do this (and am
aware of similar enforcement of the Linux trademark in some countries),
it still seems to reduce the Freedom of the Moodle software. Many
web-based Free Software projects are offered as part of hosting packages
and I'm not aware of any other project requiring registration (even for
no money) in order to use the software name. Indeed, such a requirement
would be against the GPL.
The other option is that people rebrand the software, as has been
suggested. So then people end up using Moodle under a different name
without any of the recognition going to the Moodle project and without
raising the profile of Moodle.
Tony
Tom Hoffman
> > On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 18:46 +0100, Tony Whitmore wrote:
> > {-snip-]
> >> Being unable to list the software you're prepared to support on your
> >> website with coughing up a fee sounds incredibly backward to me.
> >> Personally I would resent any project that tried to take away my freedom
> >> in this way.
> > I agree with Tom, David Goodwin's post gave no details, and in
> > particular none regarding any reasons given (or not) for asking his
> > friend to stop using the name Moodle.
>
> I've now seen the e-mail that was sent. The "site" in question was
> actually just a blog posting that had the text "Moodle services" in it!
> The C&D letter is basically just a form letter and I half suspect it was
> sent by an automated system that searches pages for certain strings.
>
> To quote the e-mail:
> "It's come to our attention that your site is using our Moodle trademark
> without permission. "Moodle" is legally trademarked to describe Moodle
> commercial services, as that is something that only official Moodle
> Partners are permitted to do.
> http://moodle.com/partners/
> Please remove all references to Moodle services, Moodle hosting, Moodle
> training, Moodle consulting, Moodle installation, and other such terms
> from your website immediately and let us know when it's done."
This is even more cryptic considering that from looking at the
Moodle.com website, it doesn't even seem like you have to pay to
become a Moodle partner. I don't get it.
--Tom
Miles Berry
"Moodle Partners are a group of competent professionals who are serious
about providing quality services to users of Moodle software, ranging
from basic support to the development and implementation of complete ICT
solutions.
Our Partnership indicates that we are dedicated to a particular vision
of supporting Moodle now while developing it further with common goals.
All Moodle Partners contribute directly to the ongoing development of
Moodle software via funding or expertise."
My understanding is that the funding element is usually a smallish
percentage of revenue.
Steve Lee
> suggested. So then people end up using Moodle under a different name
> without any of the recognition going to the Moodle project and without
> raising the profile of Moodle.
That would appear to increase the chances of a fork, and avoiding that
is one of the prime forces at work in OSS project governance.
Steve
Martin Dougiamas
No, please understand that this only refers to use of the
trademark in describing commercial services, eg "Moodle hosting".
It's a name thing. I don't like us having to send notices, but I am
required to protect the trademark - it's one of the stipulations of
getting a trademark in the first place and an important part of
keeping it.
People are free to use and modify Moodle under the GPL, and even
to construct whole business models around it if they want to,
I encourage that. The Moodle software can be referred to as
Moodle, no problems.
This is only about describing COMMERCIAL SERVICES, nothing
more, and this is a privilege that I "sell" to Moodle Partners, if you
like (they pay royalties for it, among other benefits). Do you have
the rights to start a McDonalds or be a Blackboard distributor
without permission? No.
Please understand that I am trying to create a viable business
model for Moodle as a sustainable project here. If there is no
advantage in being a Moodle Partner then no-one would want to
sign up, and then Moodle would not have enough income to pay
programmers to work on the features and stability and documentation
and downloads and community that everyone exects.
People can whine about it but where were they for the past six years
of my life while I was creating Moodle from scratch and trying to show
my young family that devoting all my time to Free software was
worthwhile? Imagine explaining to YOUR wife why you still can't
afford even a basic house to live in while overseas companies are
able to make as much money as they like from your work.
Free software still costs a lot of time and money to those who make it.
I am 100% committed to Moodle as Free software and this is the best
way I've found to keep me working on it.
Steve Lee
> This is only about describing COMMERCIAL SERVICES, nothing
> more, and this is a privilege that I "sell" to Moodle Partners, if you
> like (they pay royalties for it, among other benefits).
> Please understand that I am trying to create a viable business
> model for Moodle as a sustainable project here.
> Free software still costs a lot of time and money to those who make it.
> I am 100% committed to Moodle as Free software and this is the best
> way I've found to keep me working on it.
I guess that avoids the issues of dual licensing as income stream (e.g.
http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk/resources/duallicence.xml).
Steve Lee
---------
www.oatsoft.org
Robert Jones
for Moodle" on a website?
I can't believe that trademark protection obliges you to stop this.
By the way, you do deserve a knighthood for the work you've done both in
coding Moodle and in setting up the support and community structures that
have enabled it to flourish :)
Robert Jones
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Omahn
For anybody that is unaware, I'm the person that received the 'cease
and desist' request from Moodle. I would just like to clarify a few
points as I understand things.
Robert Jones wrote:
> Just to clarify Martin - is it OK by you for people to say "we provide support
> for Moodle" on a website?
> I can't believe that trademark protection obliges you to stop this.
My understanding is that the trademark does stop you from doing this
and I have no objection to it. (I simply wasn't aware that the
trademark even existed!).
> By the way, you do deserve a knighthood for the work you've done both in
> coding Moodle and in setting up the support and community structures that
> have enabled it to flourish :)
My feelings exactly. We have used Moodle at our site for the past 4
years and the growth and stability of the product is simply stunning.
> On Thursday 22 June 2006 19:21, Martin Dougiamas wrote:
> > Please understand that I am trying to create a viable business
> > model for Moodle as a sustainable project here. If there is no
> > advantage in being a Moodle Partner then no-one would want to
> > sign up, and then Moodle would not have enough income to pay
> > programmers to work on the features and stability and documentation
> > and downloads and community that everyone exects.
I fully agree with the business model that Martin has put in place as
it will help the product to grow and continue successfully in the
future. Whether or not we had become an official Moodle partner, we had
always planned to give a percentage of the income back to Moodle. This
is something that we already do for other projects, DansGuardian in
particular.
Since the original e-mail, all communication I've had with Moodle has
been both positive and constructive and we'll be applying for full
Moodle Partner status in the near future. The only criticism I have is
with the original contact from Moodle. The e-mail was written in
typical 'cease and desist' fashion and I suspect something along the
lines of 'We have noticed you are selling commercial services involving
Moodle.. Was you aware that this infringes on our trademark..' and 'We
provide a partner program.. would you like to join us'.. etc etc before
getting down and dirty with legal notices. I suspect it would result in
better public perception of Moodle and hopefully, would help foster new
partners joining the organisation.
I would also like to say that the original e-mail, the name of the
organisation involved and the product involved was never intended to be
made public. The original e-mail was placed on my server so that I
could ask for a second opinion from a number of people I know.
Unfortunately the link to the e-mail was placed on a public blog. This
link has now been removed at my request.
Martin - Thank you for your clarification in the earlier post, I hope
this hasn't caused any negative effect on how the commercial arm of
Moodle is perceived by the general public and I look forward to working
with you and Moodle in the future.
I would highly recommend anyone looking for a CMS/VLE/whatever you want
to call it, considers Moodle. It is an *excellent* product.
Paul Elliott
http://www.omahns-home.co.uk
Ian Lynch
> Hello everyone.
>
> For anybody that is unaware, I'm the person that received the 'cease
> and desist' request from Moodle. I would just like to clarify a few
> points as I understand things.
>
> Robert Jones wrote:
> > Just to clarify Martin - is it OK by you for people to say "we provide support
> > for Moodle" on a website?
> > I can't believe that trademark protection obliges you to stop this.
>
> My understanding is that the trademark does stop you from doing this
> and I have no objection to it. (I simply wasn't aware that the
> trademark even existed!).
You could of course say you can support popular open source VLE
platforms, please E-mail for further details.
--
Ian Lynch
www.theINGOTs.org
www.opendocumentfellowship.org
www.schoolforge.org.uk
Robert Jones
> On Fri, 2006-06-23 at 03:36 -0700, Omahn wrote:
> > Hello everyone.
> >
> > For anybody that is unaware, I'm the person that received the 'cease
> > and desist' request from Moodle. I would just like to clarify a few
> > points as I understand things.
> >
> > Robert Jones wrote:
> > > Just to clarify Martin - is it OK by you for people to say "we provide
> > > support for Moodle" on a website?
> > > I can't believe that trademark protection obliges you to stop this.
> >
> > My understanding is that the trademark does stop you from doing this
> > and I have no objection to it. (I simply wasn't aware that the
> > trademark even existed!).
>
> You could of course say you can support popular open source VLE
> platforms, please E-mail for further details.
Or how about that you support the open source VLE that rhymes with Doodle?
It seems farcical and utterly against the spirit of Open Source to be so
uptight about the use of the word M**dle.
Robert Jones
Steve Lee
I think it fair to say we give Moodle a collective great big 'thumbs up'
for being a fantastic Open Source Learning Platform, not to mention
inspirational, teacher friendly and well managed.
Steve Lee
Tom Hoffman
trademark law apparently works. Although I'm very confused about
whether "Moodle" in this case is a product or a service.
That is, I can buy a product from a wholesaler and advertise its
retail sale without obtaining the explicit permission from the
manufacturer. Or perhaps I can only do that if the trademark holder
implicitly allows me to? I mean, if I start a comics store, buy a
bunch of comics, do I need permission from Marvel to put a sign in my
window that says "We sell Marvel(TM) comics?" That doesn't seem to be
the way the world actually works.
On the other hand if "Moodle hosting" is a service and all variants
are service marks, I guess it makes sense that the service mark holder
can restrict their use. It makes "Moodle" seem more like the name of
a franchise, like McDonalds, which is the comparison Martin made. But
can you use the same trademark for a product and a service? Ug. What
a pain.
In this case, we all like Moodle; we all like Martin; and there is not
indication that Moodle.com is asking for anything unreasonable. What
is disturbing to me is that apparent the *could* act much more
unreasonably if they wanted to.
That is, if I was talking to a local consultant about the advantages
of offering free software hosting to schools, and he was looking for a
"gotcha" in free software (which reasonable newbies assume there is),
I would have to concede that yes, the trademark holder could charge an
arbitrarily large fee to advertise their new services.
My concern at this point is that I don't know how I'd determine if
there were some free software applications that were unencumbered by
this risk. I mean, the trademark holder can say they won't charge,
but I presume they legally could change their mind?
Finally, I've never heard about a trademark being applied so broadly
for free software. Does anyone know of any other examples? I don't
want to single out Moodle here, but I especially don't if this
practice is more common than I realize.
--Tom
Chris Puttick
in the UK. I.e. I can say "offer Microsoft solution consultancy
services" and because I am not misleading anyone I cannot be
sanctioned or prevented from selling those services, so long as I say
"TM or (R) Microsoft" and don't then provide Linux solutions that I
call Windows (or Lindows!). I'm not a lawyer, but I am sure that is
the case.
Regardless, the trademark usage in this way does seem somewhat at odds
with the philosophy of open source and *importantly* one of the
advantages I have used as a proponent "anyone can support it and can
carry on developing it".
Chris
Steve Lee
Perhaps you can find an answer on Groklaw, or Pamela Jones would be
interested in researching or discussing it?
Steve
John Ingleby
> Ouch, my head hurts. I though licensing was complex enough.
>
> Perhaps you can find an answer on Groklaw, or Pamela Jones would be
> interested in researching or discussing it?
>
project? Learning-by-doing.
John
****
John Ingleby
a "cease and desist letter") to invite companies to become Moodle
Partners?
Judging by Paul Elliott's post, his company simply hadn't "Got A Round
Tuit".
John
****
PS. I am *very* pleased with the way this list (which we started just
over a year ago) is being used to deal with issues such as this! JI.
Paul Elliott
On further reflection, would Martin consider a more effective way (than
a "cease and desist letter") to invite companies to become Moodle
Partners?
I've since had a chat with Martin and he's reviewing procedures after taking some feedback.
Judging by Paul Elliott's post, his company simply hadn't "Got A Round
Tuit".
Exactly. :-)
Paul Elliott