Why Maharishi won't create Heaven on Earth
Andrew Skolnick
movement cannot establish 7000 Yogic Fliers to deliver the Maharishi's
promised "Heaven on Earth."
It just takes 7000 TMers bouncing on their butts in one place twice a
day to rid the world of war and violence, poverty, illness,
malnutrition, crime, floods, droughts, hurricanes, and other bad
weather. Or so the Maharishi says.
He's been saying that for more than 20 years. So why hasn't the TM
movement established 7000 Yogic butt bouncers? Too expensive, says TM's
dedicated apologist, Lawson English. It would cost millions of dollars
to build a gym for 7000 TMers to hop in. The movement doesn't have that
kind of money, ya know?
According to a TM web site
(http://www.maharishi-india.org/programmes/p2sidhi.html), more than
80,000 TMers have learned to fly. If that claim is true, TM coffers
received more than a quarter of a BILLION dollars from teaching these
TMers to hop on their butts.
More than 80,000 Yogic Fliers and more than a quarter of a billion
dollars, and the TM movement can't afford to get fewer than 9% of its
Yogic Fliers together to save the world.
Judging by Lawson's lame excuse, I suspect nothing is too silly to be
believed by people who say they can learn to fly by bouncing on their
butts.
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Dene Bebbington
>Lawson English has tried to explain why the Maharishi and the TM
>movement cannot establish 7000 Yogic Fliers to deliver the Maharishi's
>promised "Heaven on Earth."
>
>It just takes 7000 TMers bouncing on their butts in one place twice a
>day to rid the world of war and violence, poverty, illness,
>malnutrition, crime, floods, droughts, hurricanes, and other bad
>weather. Or so the Maharishi says.
>
>He's been saying that for more than 20 years. So why hasn't the TM
>movement established 7000 Yogic butt bouncers? Too expensive, says TM's
>dedicated apologist, Lawson English. It would cost millions of dollars
>to build a gym for 7000 TMers to hop in. The movement doesn't have that
>kind of money, ya know?
In fact, the movement did apparently get together around 7000 butt
hoppers between Dec 83 and Jan 84 at MIU.
It has been claimed that the end of the cold war was the result of
groups doing butt hopping.
Besides, why should the TM movement put its money where its mouth is for
a longer term project when instead they can exhort governments to pay
for it and so not call their own bluff?! There would also seem to be an
issue of whether enough butt hoppers are prepared to devote so much of
their time to such a project.
[...]
--
Dene Bebbington http://www.bebbo.demon.co.uk
"Beside the braes of dawn. One clear new morning. Down where the lilies
stood in bloom. I knew that I was just a stranger in this world. A wind
just passing through." - Calum & Rory Macdonald (Runrig)
Andrew Skolnick
>
> Andrew Skolnick <asko...@mindspring.com> writes:
> >Lawson English has tried to explain why the Maharishi and the TM
> >movement cannot establish 7000 Yogic Fliers to deliver the Maharishi's
> >promised "Heaven on Earth."
> >
> >It just takes 7000 TMers bouncing on their butts in one place twice a
> >day to rid the world of war and violence, poverty, illness,
> >malnutrition, crime, floods, droughts, hurricanes, and other bad
> >weather. Or so the Maharishi says.
> >
> >He's been saying that for more than 20 years. So why hasn't the TM
> >movement established 7000 Yogic butt bouncers? Too expensive, says TM's
> >dedicated apologist, Lawson English. It would cost millions of dollars
> >to build a gym for 7000 TMers to hop in. The movement doesn't have that
> >kind of money, ya know?
>
> In fact, the movement did apparently get together around 7000 butt
> hoppers between Dec 83 and Jan 84 at MIU.
I know. They did that a couple of other times too. That's why I said
"established" as opposed to staging a gathering.
> It has been claimed that the end of the cold war was the result of
> groups doing butt hopping.
Hmmm. Thousands of species of animals and plants became extinct around
that time too. The incarceration rate in the U.S. skyrocketed. Many
other bad things also increased. TM pseudoscientists like to claim
responsibility for all good events while denying responsibility for all
bad events. They're just a bunch of deluded fools going around with
paint buckets and brushes painting bullseyes around the arrows they
shoot.
Works for them.
> Besides, why should the TM movement put its money where its mouth is for
> a longer term project when instead they can exhort governments to pay
> for it and so not call their own bluff?! There would also seem to be an
> issue of whether enough butt hoppers are prepared to devote so much of
> their time to such a project.
Why wouldn't they? They were all so eager to part with thousands of
dollars just to learn to hop. And they are already spending hours a day
hopping. If they would just do it together, they would create Heaven on
Earth for themselves and for the rest of the world. (Yeah, right.)
The truth is even that they don't believe the Maharhishi's bull enough
to put their beliefs to the test. That's why they refuse to do it unless
governments are willing to give them billions of dollars.
-Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Lawson English
>Besides, why should the TM movement put its money where its mouth is for
>a longer term project when instead they can exhort governments to pay
>for it and so not call their own bluff?! There would also seem to be an
>issue of whether enough butt hoppers are prepared to devote so much of
>their time to such a project.
A valid point. Getting 9% of a world-wide group to be willing to move to a
specific location isn't easy, even if it is only for a few weeks.
There's also the issues of transportation, living expenses, etc.
Either you get 7,000 people plus their families to move to some out of the
way location without traffic congestion and then try to create the
infra-structure to support them (e.g., the MIU community in Fairfield,
Iowa), or you attempt to create the group in a large metropolitan area and
arrange reliable transportation for 7,000 people to meet twice a day
outside of their homes or businesses (the Washington DC study), or you
train 7,000 monks to do the techniques and create a monastary for the 7,000
to live in and make sure that the monastary is fully funded so that the
7,000 don't have to be distracted by financial pressures (the world's
tallest building project in India).
Or, you can attempt some combination of the above. Regardless, the
logistics and financing required to get 7,000 butt-bouncers together on a
twice-daily, *permanent* basis isn't trivial. Only the military manages to
get that many people together on a daily basis, and getting the military
to train 7,000 butt-bouncers doesn't seem plausible at this point.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lawson English. Squeak, snore, etc.
Check out <http://www.squeak.org>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lawson English
> It has been claimed that the end of the cold war was the result of
>> groups doing butt hopping.
>
>Hmmm. Thousands of species of animals and plants became extinct around
>that time too. The incarceration rate in the U.S. skyrocketed. Many
>other bad things also increased. TM pseudoscientists like to claim
>responsibility for all good events while denying responsibility for all
>bad events. They're just a bunch of deluded fools going around with
>paint buckets and brushes painting bullseyes around the arrows they
>shoot.
>
>Works for them.
Actually, MMY has explicitly said that the bad things in the world can ALSO
be attributed to the TM organization's lack of ability to *maintain* a
large enough group of butt-bouncers -if the positive things are bragged
about, the negative ones must also be acknowledged.
Lawson English
>Why wouldn't they? They were all so eager to part with thousands of
>dollars just to learn to hop. And they are already spending hours a day
>hopping. If they would just do it together, they would create Heaven on
>Earth for themselves and for the rest of the world. (Yeah, right.)
>
>The truth is even that they don't believe the Maharhishi's bull enough
>to put their beliefs to the test. That's why they refuse to do it unless
>governments are willing to give them billions of dollars.
You have a point. It is one thing to *hope* that MMY is correct, and
another to pack up your families, quit your jobs, and move someplace just
so you can butt-bounce in a large group every day in order to save the
Earth. And of course, what if your family doesn't want to move? Do you
leave them or let the Earth fend for itself?
bbri...@hotmail.com
asko...@mindspring.com wrote:
> Dene Bebbington wrote:
> >
> > Andrew Skolnick <asko...@mindspring.com> writes:
> > Besides, why should the TM movement put its money where its mouth
is for
> > a longer term project when instead they can exhort governments to
pay
> > for it and so not call their own bluff?! There would also seem to
be an
> > issue of whether enough butt hoppers are prepared to devote so much
of
> > their time to such a project.
>
> Why wouldn't they? They were all so eager to part with thousands of
> dollars just to learn to hop. And they are already spending hours a
day
> hopping. If they would just do it together, they would create Heaven
on
> Earth for themselves and for the rest of the world. (Yeah, right.)
>
> The truth is even that they don't believe the Maharhishi's bull enough
> to put their beliefs to the test. That's why they refuse to do it
unless
> governments are willing to give them billions of dollars.
>
> -Andrew Skolnick
> http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
>
Well, Andrew, the TM movement might just get it's way if it gets
another President in office who practices TM (the first was George
Bush, George W. might be the 2nd):
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/3996/feedback.html#jenkins
Bob Brigante
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
John A. Stanley
>Well, Andrew, the TM movement might just get it's way if it gets
>another President in office who practices TM (the first was George
>Bush, George W. might be the 2nd):
Dubya spoke on the MIU campus years ago when he was campaigning for his dad.
The only thing that stands out in my mind is when he used the expression,
"Believe you me." I cringed.
--
John A. Stanley jsta...@gate.net
Andrew Skolnick
>
> Andrew Skolnick <asko...@mindspring.com> said:
>
> >Why wouldn't they? They were all so eager to part with thousands of
> >dollars just to learn to hop. And they are already spending hours a day
> >hopping. If they would just do it together, they would create Heaven on
> >Earth for themselves and for the rest of the world. (Yeah, right.)
> >
> >The truth is even that they don't believe the Maharhishi's bull enough
> >to put their beliefs to the test. That's why they refuse to do it unless
> >governments are willing to give them billions of dollars.
>
> another to pack up your families, quit your jobs, and move someplace just
> so you can butt-bounce in a large group every day in order to save the
> Earth. And of course, what if your family doesn't want to move? Do you
> leave them or let the Earth fend for itself?
>
Come off of it Lawson, your family like everybody else's family live on
the same planet -- the one that your guru says can be turned into Heaven
by a measly 7000 butt bouncers! Don't you want to save your familyies
from war, crime, pestilence, famine, and the mockery of skeptics?
Furthermore, not all TM butt bouncers have families. What about all
those TM monks and nuns? What do they do with their celibrate days
besides crank out more propaganda for the movement? Why don't you put
them to work to save the world from war, famine, crime, pestilence, and
the mockery of skeptics?
-- Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Andrew Skolnick
>
> >Besides, why should the TM movement put its money where its mouth is for
> >a longer term project when instead they can exhort governments to pay
> >for it and so not call their own bluff?! There would also seem to be an
> >issue of whether enough butt hoppers are prepared to devote so much of
> >their time to such a project.
>
> specific location isn't easy, even if it is only for a few weeks.
>
> There's also the issues of transportation, living expenses, etc.
>
> Either you get 7,000 people plus their families to move to some out of the
> way location without traffic congestion and then try to create the
> infra-structure to support them (e.g., the MIU community in Fairfield,
> Iowa), or you attempt to create the group in a large metropolitan area and
> arrange reliable transportation for 7,000 people to meet twice a day
> outside of their homes or businesses (the Washington DC study), or you
> train 7,000 monks to do the techniques and create a monastary for the 7,000
> to live in and make sure that the monastary is fully funded so that the
> 7,000 don't have to be distracted by financial pressures (the world's
> tallest building project in India).
>
> Or, you can attempt some combination of the above. Regardless, the
> logistics and financing required to get 7,000 butt-bouncers together on a
> twice-daily, *permanent* basis isn't trivial. Only the military manages to
> get that many people together on a daily basis, and getting the military
> to train 7,000 butt-bouncers doesn't seem plausible at this point.
What a load of apologetic rubbish! What unmitigated nonsense!
I stated previously that I went to a high school in Queens, NY, which
was able to get more than 5000 rebellious adolescents together into a
single building every school day. About two miles away to the southwest,
Jamaica High School did the same. And about two miles to the northest,
Bayside High School pulled off the same "implausible" feat.
And about 5 miles from my high school is Queens College. Like the other
19 colleges
in the City University of New York, Queens College is a commuter college
with NO housing facilities. Every day 18,000 students assemble there and
that's 2 1/2 times the number of Yogic butt bouncers needed to save the
world. Every day 18,000 students travel on the Long Island Expressway
and other congested Queens roads to get to the college and every day
18,000 students leave the college to go home.
Getting 18,000 people together on a daily basis to work towards a
bachelors' degree is easy, but getting 7000 people together on a regular
basis to save the world is not "plausible at this point," Lawson says.
Yeah, right.
Lawson, you and your fellow TM bliss ninnies are hilarious.
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Dene Bebbington
>Dene Bebbington wrote:
>>
>> Andrew Skolnick <asko...@mindspring.com> writes:
>> >movement cannot establish 7000 Yogic Fliers to deliver the Maharishi's
>> >promised "Heaven on Earth."
>> >
>> >It just takes 7000 TMers bouncing on their butts in one place twice a
>> >day to rid the world of war and violence, poverty, illness,
>> >malnutrition, crime, floods, droughts, hurricanes, and other bad
>> >weather. Or so the Maharishi says.
>> >
>> >He's been saying that for more than 20 years. So why hasn't the TM
>> >movement established 7000 Yogic butt bouncers? Too expensive, says TM's
>> >dedicated apologist, Lawson English. It would cost millions of dollars
>> >to build a gym for 7000 TMers to hop in. The movement doesn't have that
>> >kind of money, ya know?
>>
>> In fact, the movement did apparently get together around 7000 butt
>> hoppers between Dec 83 and Jan 84 at MIU.
>
>I know. They did that a couple of other times too. That's why I said
>"established" as opposed to staging a gathering.
Yeah, I was pointing out that they have managed to get together 7000
butt hoppers, in contrast to some of Lawson's previous excuses.
>> It has been claimed that the end of the cold war was the result of
>> groups doing butt hopping.
>
>Hmmm. Thousands of species of animals and plants became extinct around
>that time too. The incarceration rate in the U.S. skyrocketed. Many
>other bad things also increased. TM pseudoscientists like to claim
>responsibility for all good events while denying responsibility for all
>bad events. They're just a bunch of deluded fools going around with
>paint buckets and brushes painting bullseyes around the arrows they
>shoot.
Indeed. It suits them well to have the mass hopping for short periods of
time, so any coincidental positive world events can be attributed to it.
>Works for them.
>
>> Besides, why should the TM movement put its money where its mouth is for
>> a longer term project when instead they can exhort governments to pay
>> for it and so not call their own bluff?! There would also seem to be an
>> issue of whether enough butt hoppers are prepared to devote so much of
>> their time to such a project.
>
>Why wouldn't they? They were all so eager to part with thousands of
>dollars just to learn to hop. And they are already spending hours a day
>hopping. If they would just do it together, they would create Heaven on
>Earth for themselves and for the rest of the world. (Yeah, right.)
Perhaps after a while their personal lives and committments become more
important than the world peace they believe can be created by hopping on
their butts.
>The truth is even that they don't believe the Maharhishi's bull enough
>to put their beliefs to the test. That's why they refuse to do it unless
>governments are willing to give them billions of dollars.
I think that any prolonged project of 7000+ butt hoppers would expose
the naked emperor, and so it's unlikely to happen.
Dene Bebbington
>
>
>>Besides, why should the TM movement put its money where its mouth is for
>>a longer term project when instead they can exhort governments to pay
>>for it and so not call their own bluff?! There would also seem to be an
>>issue of whether enough butt hoppers are prepared to devote so much of
>>their time to such a project.
>
>specific location isn't easy, even if it is only for a few weeks.
>
>There's also the issues of transportation, living expenses, etc.
>
>Either you get 7,000 people plus their families to move to some out of the
>way location without traffic congestion and then try to create the
>infra-structure to support them (e.g., the MIU community in Fairfield,
>Iowa), or you attempt to create the group in a large metropolitan area and
>arrange reliable transportation for 7,000 people to meet twice a day
>outside of their homes or businesses (the Washington DC study), or you
>train 7,000 monks to do the techniques and create a monastary for the 7,000
>to live in and make sure that the monastary is fully funded so that the
>7,000 don't have to be distracted by financial pressures (the world's
>tallest building project in India).
>
>Or, you can attempt some combination of the above. Regardless, the
>logistics and financing required to get 7,000 butt-bouncers together on a
>twice-daily, *permanent* basis isn't trivial. Only the military manages to
>get that many people together on a daily basis, and getting the military
>to train 7,000 butt-bouncers doesn't seem plausible at this point.
Sorry, but just one other example is that many colleges get several
thousand people together in a specified location every day.
Lawson English
years.
OK. How much of that "more than a quarter of a billion dollars" has been
retained? I mean, $250,000,000/20 = $12,500,000/year.
80,000 in 20 years is an average of 4,000 persons taught per year. When I
learned, one could take the sidhis in a block of 8-weeks in residence or
optionally only the last two weeks would be in-residence. In the current
course, only the last two weeks are in-residence. Let's assume that that
two weeks was always the case for everyone:
OK, assume $150/week overhead per person. That's $150 x 8000 = $1,200,000
overhead, leaving just over $11,000,000/year in profit.
Now, for this to be available, we must assume that there's no money given
to MIU beyond simple expenses for hosting the in-residence clases, no money
given to the local TM center and TM teacher for hosting the non-residence
portion, etc.
Obviously, this assumption is wrong. I would guess that a substantial
portion of the money goes to the facility hosting the classes, but let's
pretend that only about 10% does, which means that we are left with
$10,000,000/year "pure profit" from the sidhis course.
The TM organization maintains a presence in between 50 and 100 countries
around the world. I would think that the first place that that money would
be targeted would be to help support those countries taht are not
self-sufficient, which would work out to as little as $100,000 per country
per year.
That $250 million doesn't go very far when you take into account the direct
overhead, and other factors, including the fact that it was gross revenue
over a period of 20 years.
Judging by Andrew's inability to take into account obvious and simple
accounting facts when making his claims, I'd guess that nothing is too
stupid for him to say in his quest to discredit the TM organization and
anyone who dares question his attacks on it.
Andrew Skolnick <asko...@mindspring.com> said:
>Lawson English has tried to explain why the Maharishi and the TM
>movement cannot establish 7000 Yogic Fliers to deliver the Maharishi's
>promised "Heaven on Earth."
>
>It just takes 7000 TMers bouncing on their butts in one place twice a
>day to rid the world of war and violence, poverty, illness,
>malnutrition, crime, floods, droughts, hurricanes, and other bad
>weather. Or so the Maharishi says.
>
>He's been saying that for more than 20 years. So why hasn't the TM
>movement established 7000 Yogic butt bouncers? Too expensive, says TM's
>dedicated apologist, Lawson English. It would cost millions of dollars
>to build a gym for 7000 TMers to hop in. The movement doesn't have that
>kind of money, ya know?
>
>According to a TM web site
>(http://www.maharishi-india.org/programmes/p2sidhi.html), more than
>80,000 TMers have learned to fly. If that claim is true, TM coffers
>received more than a quarter of a BILLION dollars from teaching these
>TMers to hop on their butts.
>
>More than 80,000 Yogic Fliers and more than a quarter of a billion
>dollars, and the TM movement can't afford to get fewer than 9% of its
>Yogic Fliers together to save the world.
>
>Judging by Lawson's lame excuse, I suspect nothing is too silly to be
>believed by people who say they can learn to fly by bouncing on their
>butts.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Walkup
>
> Well, Andrew, the TM movement might just get it's way if it gets
> another President in office who practices TM (the first was George
> Bush, George W. might be the 2nd):
>
I read the site, and I see no credible evidence that Bush ever practiced
TM. (All the evidence rests on the word of a former trustee of
Maharishi International University.)
--
John Walkup
John Walkup
>
> Lawson English wrote:
> >
> > Or, you can attempt some combination of the above. Regardless, the
> > logistics and financing required to get 7,000 butt-bouncers together on a
> > twice-daily, *permanent* basis isn't trivial. Only the military manages to
> > get that many people together on a daily basis, and getting the military
> > to train 7,000 butt-bouncers doesn't seem plausible at this point.
>
>
> I stated previously that I went to a high school in Queens, NY, which
> was able to get more than 5000 rebellious adolescents together into a
> single building every school day. About two miles away to the southwest,
> Jamaica High School did the same. And about two miles to the northest,
> Bayside High School pulled off the same "implausible" feat.
>
> And about 5 miles from my high school is Queens College. Like the other
> 19 colleges
> in the City University of New York, Queens College is a commuter college
> with NO housing facilities. Every day 18,000 students assemble there and
> that's 2 1/2 times the number of Yogic butt bouncers needed to save the
> world. Every day 18,000 students travel on the Long Island Expressway
> and other congested Queens roads to get to the college and every day
> 18,000 students leave the college to go home.
>
> Getting 18,000 people together on a daily basis to work towards a
> bachelors' degree is easy, but getting 7000 people together on a regular
> basis to save the world is not "plausible at this point," Lawson says.
> Yeah, right.
And let's not forget The Grateful Dead concerts. :)
--
John Walkup
John A. Stanley
Andrew Skolnick <asko...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>According to a TM web site
>(http://www.maharishi-india.org/programmes/p2sidhi.html), more than
>80,000 TMers have learned to fly. If that claim is true, TM coffers
>received more than a quarter of a BILLION dollars from teaching these
>TMers to hop on their butts.
That calculation assumes the United States price was received. Outside the US
just about anything the TM organization sells is priced significantly lower.
T. C. Mits
Earth thing. If the TM claim is true and the effect of a large gathering
effects some subtle agency then other groups and practices must also have
similar effects. Thus, we should expect some results from having 7000
tibetan monks clearing their throats, or 7000 nuns singing the greatest hits
of the Inquisition, or maybe 7000 scientology disciples all plugged into
e-meters, etc.
I wonder what would be the effect versus the TM hive effects (such as
soldiers stopping the rape and pillage because they acquired a thirst for
holy cow urine). Maybe the Scientology hive would make the world a thirst
for John Travolta movies; the monks make sales of Listerine skyrocket, and
the nuns would cause a new hip-hop fashion sensation, a 'Joni Mitchell' in
black pumps mixture.
I vote we test this theory out. Lets let every group have a crack at it.
Lets start with 7000 people who can stand on their head, then the Bow Legged
Americans Society, then .........
Andrew Skolnick
Well, true, but thousands of young people are only too eager to gather
for a GD concert. :-) They are far, far less than eager to show up at
school every day. As Shakespeare wrote in As You Like It:
And then the whining schoolboy, with his
satchel and shining morning face,
creeping like snail unwillingly to school.
As I said -- and Lawson ignores -- in hundreds of large high schools
across the country, 3000, 4000, 5000, or more rebellious teens gather
together in a single building every school day.
And many commuter colleges across the land gather together a number of
students every day that is two-, three-, or even more times the number
of Yogic Fliers that TM says is needed to Create Heaven on Earth.
But Lawson insists getting 7000 people together on a regular basis is
"implausible" for any group other than the military! -- even for a group
of "enlightened" people who claim they can save the world by hopping
together.
Yeah, right.
The excuses of TM apologists are so transparent. And oh soooooo funny!
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Syd Baumel
>> bachelors' degree is easy, but getting 7000 people together on a regular
>> basis to save the world is not "plausible at this point," Lawson says.
>> Yeah, right.
> And let's not forget The Grateful Dead concerts. :)
Which are responsible for the well-known "Grateful Dead effect": For at
least 24 hours, all hooligans within a radius of 5 miles stay home and
eat cookies.
> --
> John Walkup
Syd
_______________________
Dealing with Depression Naturally
and other books by Syd Baumel.
...and cool record reviews!
li...@ork.net
> And about 5 miles from my high school is Queens College. Like the other
> 19 colleges
> in the City University of New York, Queens College is a commuter college
> with NO housing facilities. Every day 18,000 students assemble there and
> that's 2 1/2 times the number of Yogic butt bouncers needed to save the
> world. Every day 18,000 students travel on the Long Island Expressway
> and other congested Queens roads to get to the college and every day
> 18,000 students leave the college to go home.
> Getting 18,000 people together on a daily basis to work towards a
> bachelors' degree is easy, but getting 7000 people together on a regular
> basis to save the world is not "plausible at this point," Lawson says.
> Yeah, right.
How many students attend MIU?
Avital Pilpel
> A valid point. Getting 9% of a world-wide group to be willing to move to a
> specific location isn't easy, even if it is only for a few weeks.
Lawson, we are talking about SAVING THE WORLD here. Ridding it of poverty,
war, and disease, creating a heaven on earth, and the rest of that stuff.
All this will miracolously happen when the 7,000 butt-bouncers will come
together, you know.
With *such* an incentive, there is no excuse whatsoever as to why a mere
9% of the yogic flyers won't come over to one place. Many, many more
people had overcome far, far greater obstacles to achieve much more meager
things, in comaprison.
Unless they don't really believe it will work (I wonder why) and are not
stupid enough to waste their time flying an ocean and bouncing on their
butts for two weeks when they know, in their heart of hearts, that it will
do absolutly *nothing* for world peace.
Avital Pilpel
PZ Myers
<Pine.GSO.4.10.990808...@ciao.cc.columbia.edu>, Avital
Pilpel <ap...@columbia.edu> wrote:
>On 7 Aug 1999, Lawson English wrote:
>
>> A valid point. Getting 9% of a world-wide group to be willing to move to a
>> specific location isn't easy, even if it is only for a few weeks.
>
>Lawson, we are talking about SAVING THE WORLD here. Ridding it of poverty,
>war, and disease, creating a heaven on earth, and the rest of that stuff.
>
>All this will miracolously happen when the 7,000 butt-bouncers will come
>together, you know.
>
>With *such* an incentive, there is no excuse whatsoever as to why a mere
>9% of the yogic flyers won't come over to one place. Many, many more
>people had overcome far, far greater obstacles to achieve much more meager
>things, in comaprison.
Have I missed something? Why do these yogic 'flyers' have to gather in
one place? If there are ten times as many as needed spread all around
the globe, why wouldn't it be effective to have them all start bouncing
around where ever they are?
>
>Unless they don't really believe it will work (I wonder why) and are not
>stupid enough to waste their time flying an ocean and bouncing on their
>butts for two weeks when they know, in their heart of hearts, that it will
>do absolutly *nothing* for world peace.
--
PZ Myers
Lawson English
>>
>> You have a point. It is one thing to *hope* that MMY is correct, and
>> another to pack up your families, quit your jobs, and move someplace
just
>> so you can butt-bounce in a large group every day in order to save the
>> Earth. And of course, what if your family doesn't want to move? Do you
>> leave them or let the Earth fend for itself?
>>
>
>Come off of it Lawson, your family like everybody else's family live on
>the same planet -- the one that your guru says can be turned into Heaven
>by a measly 7000 butt bouncers! Don't you want to save your familyies
>from war, crime, pestilence, famine, and the mockery of skeptics?
>
Sure, but what if one's family doesn't want to leave town? Does one then
abandon them?
>Furthermore, not all TM butt bouncers have families. What about all
>those TM monks and nuns? What do they do with their celibrate days
>besides crank out more propaganda for the movement? Why don't you put
>them to work to save the world from war, famine, crime, pestilence, and
>the mockery of skeptics?
There aren't 7,000+ Perusha and Mother Divine participants, sorry. And yes,
when they aren't "cranking out propanda" and so on, they are often
meditating/butt-bouncing together in large groups for that very purpose.
Lawson English
>>Or, you can attempt some combination of the above. Regardless, the
>>logistics and financing required to get 7,000 butt-bouncers together on a
>>twice-daily, *permanent* basis isn't trivial. Only the military manages
to
>>get that many people together on a daily basis, and getting the military
>>to train 7,000 butt-bouncers doesn't seem plausible at this point.
>
>Sorry, but just one other example is that many colleges get several
>thousand people together in a specified location every day.
Um, but these are all *students*, are they not? Their "job" is to go to
school. They are either working part-time outside of classes, or are
subsidized by families and/or scholarships of some kind. The MIU campus is
also a college, afterall, but in order to get 7,000 students and faculty to
butt-bounce together, one must first get them to attend/work-at the MIU
campus, right?
Lawson English
>What a load of apologetic rubbish! What unmitigated nonsense!
>
>I stated previously that I went to a high school in Queens, NY, which
>was able to get more than 5000 rebellious adolescents together into a
>single building every school day. About two miles away to the southwest,
>Jamaica High School did the same. And about two miles to the northest,
>Bayside High School pulled off the same "implausible" feat.
And these were all H.S. students who were at the same facility ALL DAY
EVERY DAY (not weekends, BTW) and the facilities and attendance are funded
and enforced by local governments. They not work-age adults who need to
have independent means to live and might decide to go fly a kite for a day
(thereby necessitating more than 7,000 participants to get the required
number every day).
Sheesh.
Skeptics should be very ashamed of the intellectual quality exhibted by the
"skeptical" participants of this threads.
John Walkup
>
> Andrew Skolnick <asko...@mindspring.com> said:
>
> >>
> >> You have a point. It is one thing to *hope* that MMY is correct, and
> >> another to pack up your families, quit your jobs, and move someplace
> just
> >> so you can butt-bounce in a large group every day in order to save the
> >> Earth. And of course, what if your family doesn't want to move? Do you
> >> leave them or let the Earth fend for itself?
> >>
> >
> >Come off of it Lawson, your family like everybody else's family live on
> >the same planet -- the one that your guru says can be turned into Heaven
> >by a measly 7000 butt bouncers! Don't you want to save your familyies
> >from war, crime, pestilence, famine, and the mockery of skeptics?
> >
>
> Sure, but what if one's family doesn't want to leave town? Does one then
> abandon them?
Well, if they wear the pants around the house, why not? We are talking
about saving the world here! "Gee fellas, I would like to come and
save the world from famine, pestilence, and violence, but my wife
doesn't want me to go." (This reminds me of the poor sod who's
mother wouldn't let him drum for the local rock band because he was
too young. The band became Led Zeppelin. Thanks, MOM!)
Consider this: One of Rush Limbaugh's fans wanted a free subscription
to Rush's newsletter, but Rush said that he would have to raise the
money himself, so he advised the listener to hold a bake sale.
I don't remember how many of Rush's fans showed up to buy baked goods
and help the listener get a subscription to the newsletter, but it was
WAY over 7000. (I think the number was closer to 30,000, and they
came from all over the country, including Canada.)
But TM cannot get 7000 together to save the world. LOL!
BTW, I only offered Rush Limbaugh's show as an EXAMPLE. Let's not delve
into Rush's show, okay?
> >Furthermore, not all TM butt bouncers have families. What about all
> >those TM monks and nuns? What do they do with their celibrate days
> >besides crank out more propaganda for the movement? Why don't you put
> >them to work to save the world from war, famine, crime, pestilence, and
> >the mockery of skeptics?
>
> There aren't 7,000+ Perusha and Mother Divine participants, sorry. And yes,
> when they aren't "cranking out propanda" and so on, they are often
> meditating/butt-bouncing together in large groups for that very purpose.
And all we got out of it was Bill Clinton. Gee, thanks, TM!!!!
--
John Walkup
Lawson English
>Consider this: One of Rush Limbaugh's fans wanted a free subscription
>to Rush's newsletter, but Rush said that he would have to raise the
>money himself, so he advised the listener to hold a bake sale.
>I don't remember how many of Rush's fans showed up to buy baked goods
>and help the listener get a subscription to the newsletter, but it was
>WAY over 7000. (I think the number was closer to 30,000, and they
>came from all over the country, including Canada.)
>
>But TM cannot get 7000 together to save the world. LOL!
>
>BTW, I only offered Rush Limbaugh's show as an EXAMPLE. Let's not delve
>into Rush's show, okay?
Er, yes, but Rush's show is *popular*. It is popular to attack people that
you disagree with. It isn't popular to bounce around on your butt, making a
fool out of yourself every day, twice a day for years on end.
Chris Stromberger
>Have I missed something? Why do these yogic 'flyers' have to gather in
>one place?
Because that makes it easier for them to make excuses as to why it's
just too hard to save the world right now.
bbri...@hotmail.com
Dear John:
You seem to have misread what I said at my website. I clearly did not
say that Jenkins, former MIU trustee, claimed that Bush learned TM. I
did point out that TM teacher Mike Love of the Beach Boys (who may have
been the one to instruct Bush, since celebrity TM teachers only
initiate other celebrities) went to a lot of trouble to raise money for
Bush when he was trying to get the Republican presidential nomination
in 1980, and that this affinity for Bush seems to be based only upon
the fact that Bush started TM (or, for some inexplicable reason, Mike
Love and many other TM movement people merely were under the mistaken
impression that Bush learned TM):
Andrew Skolnick
>
> John Walkup <cue...@telepath.com> said:
>
> >Consider this: One of Rush Limbaugh's fans wanted a free subscription
> >to Rush's newsletter, but Rush said that he would have to raise the
> >money himself, so he advised the listener to hold a bake sale.
> >I don't remember how many of Rush's fans showed up to buy baked goods
> >and help the listener get a subscription to the newsletter, but it was
> >WAY over 7000. (I think the number was closer to 30,000, and they
> >came from all over the country, including Canada.)
> >
> >But TM cannot get 7000 together to save the world. LOL!
> >
> >BTW, I only offered Rush Limbaugh's show as an EXAMPLE. Let's not delve
> >into Rush's show, okay?
>
> Er, yes, but Rush's show is *popular*. It is popular to attack people that
> you disagree with. It isn't popular to bounce around on your butt, making a
> fool out of yourself every day, twice a day for years on end.
>
Oh, come now Lawson. Don't you believe in your own beliefs? If 7000 of
you butt bouncers could eliminate droughts like the one now sucking the
northeast dry, prevent deadly tornadoes, earthquakes, and hurricanes,
make our homes and streets safe from crime, prevent wars, and "create
Heaven on Earth," as the Maharishi claims, you would be called angels
and saviors, not fools. Statues of the Maharishi would be errected all
over the world. TM would be taught in every school. John Hagelin would
be President of the United States. The Prime Minister of Great Britain
would be a member of the Natural Law Party, as would every other world
leader. Sadam Hussein would become a nice guy.
But Lawson, I suspect that even you, like the Maharishi, don't believe
the scam. You know that 7000 people getting together every day to bounce
on their butts will not reduce the worlds problems one iota. The only
benefit to humankind would be the humor of seeing 7000 deluded fools
bouncing on their asses twice a day. That's why the TM movement is
spending millions of dollars buying up real estate around the world, but
not one dime to establish a center for 7000 Yogic Butt Bouncers/World
Saviors.
So go ahead and keep offering one silly excuse after another to explain
why it's not yet possible to assemble 7000 Yogic Fliers to save the
world. You're keeping a lot of readers rolling on the floor.
Yup, you hop and we roll.
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
encapsulight
beyond the bouncers themselves. They had to have been powerless to begin
with or they would they be doing such useless and moronic behavior. It is
silly and outright insane to believe otherwise
In the thousands of years India has been around--all the BS generated, all
the mental stuff, and all the everything that has even been done there
hasn't helped that place much less anywhere else.
If they ever had any answers they wouldn't be what they are, or where they
are--and that tells it all.
Much less is some expatriate Indian clown and his "followers"selling inner
nonsense to gullible westerners.elsewhere going to do much of anything
ever.except waste peoples time for a fee.
. Just a thought.
Now if 7000 butt bouncers all farted at the same time in the same room--that
would extend beyond the group for a distance and be very powerful---maybe!!
The question is who is going to donate the beans!!
Lawson English <eng...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:B3D1D8C...@206.165.43.6...
>
>
> >Besides, why should the TM movement put its money where its mouth is for
> >a longer term project when instead they can exhort governments to pay
> >for it and so not call their own bluff?! There would also seem to be an
> >issue of whether enough butt hoppers are prepared to devote so much of
> >their time to such a project.
>
> A valid point. Getting 9% of a world-wide group to be willing to move to a
> specific location isn't easy, even if it is only for a few weeks.
>
> There's also the issues of transportation, living expenses, etc.
>
> Either you get 7,000 people plus their families to move to some out of the
> way location without traffic congestion and then try to create the
> infra-structure to support them (e.g., the MIU community in Fairfield,
> Iowa), or you attempt to create the group in a large metropolitan area and
> arrange reliable transportation for 7,000 people to meet twice a day
> outside of their homes or businesses (the Washington DC study), or you
> train 7,000 monks to do the techniques and create a monastary for the
7,000
> to live in and make sure that the monastary is fully funded so that the
> 7,000 don't have to be distracted by financial pressures (the world's
> tallest building project in India).
>
> Or, you can attempt some combination of the above. Regardless, the
> logistics and financing required to get 7,000 butt-bouncers together on a
> twice-daily, *permanent* basis isn't trivial. Only the military manages to
> get that many people together on a daily basis, and getting the military
> to train 7,000 butt-bouncers doesn't seem plausible at this point.
>
Andrew Skolnick
>
> Andrew Skolnick <asko...@spam.block.mindspring.com> said:
>
> >What a load of apologetic rubbish! What unmitigated nonsense!
> >
> >I stated previously that I went to a high school in Queens, NY, which
> >was able to get more than 5000 rebellious adolescents together into a
> >single building every school day. About two miles away to the southwest,
> >Jamaica High School did the same. And about two miles to the northest,
> >Bayside High School pulled off the same "implausible" feat.
>
> And these were all H.S. students who were at the same facility ALL DAY
> EVERY DAY (not weekends, BTW) and the facilities and attendance are funded
> and enforced by local governments. They not work-age adults who need to
> have independent means to live and might decide to go fly a kite for a day
> (thereby necessitating more than 7,000 participants to get the required
> number every day).
>
> Sheesh.
>
> Skeptics should be very ashamed of the intellectual quality exhibted by the
> "skeptical" participants of this threads.
Who should be ashamed?
Notice that the Dormouse snipped the part about *18,000* commuter
college students fighting New York City traffic to attend Queens College
every day. These are young adults who PAY a lot of money just to attend.
They also have family lives and many have to work. That's 18,000 -- 2
1/2 times the number of Yogic fliers needed to save the world! They are
not "funded and enforced" to do this by any government.
Similiar "implausible" feats are accomplished every day at Hunter,
Brooklyn College, and the other schools that make up the New York City
commuter college system. And similar or even greater "implausible" feats
are accomplished on many commuter colleges throughout the country.
Or how about a school like UCLA in crowded,
limited-public-transportation Los Angeles? That school has more than
36,000 students! Thousands of these students have families, children,
and jobs. What's more, 16,785 faculty and staff come to campus every day
to teach the 36,000 students! Together, that more than 7 times the
number of yogic fliers needed to save the world!
But Lawson insists that getting 7000 people together on a daily basis
could only be done by the military!
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
John Walkup
>
> John Walkup <cue...@telepath.com> said:
>
> >Consider this: One of Rush Limbaugh's fans wanted a free subscription
> >to Rush's newsletter, but Rush said that he would have to raise the
> >money himself, so he advised the listener to hold a bake sale.
> >I don't remember how many of Rush's fans showed up to buy baked goods
> >and help the listener get a subscription to the newsletter, but it was
> >WAY over 7000. (I think the number was closer to 30,000, and they
> >came from all over the country, including Canada.)
> >
> >But TM cannot get 7000 together to save the world. LOL!
> >
> >BTW, I only offered Rush Limbaugh's show as an EXAMPLE. Let's not delve
> >into Rush's show, okay?
>
> Er, yes, but Rush's show is *popular*. It is popular to attack people that
> you disagree with.
Your assertion has no merit, because the people didn't congregate to
attack
others.
> It isn't popular to bounce around on your butt, making a
> fool out of yourself every day, twice a day for years on end.
Congratulations, you have reached the first plateau!
But in all seriousness, saving the world from pestilence and famine
would be ENORMOUSLY popular IF YOU COULD DO IT. But they can't, and
getting together and trying would prove they couldn't. That wouldn't
be too popular.
--
John Walkup
John Walkup
>
> Dear John:
> You seem to have misread what I said at my website. I clearly did not
> say that Jenkins, former MIU trustee, claimed that Bush learned TM. I
> did point out that TM teacher Mike Love of the Beach Boys (who may have
> been the one to instruct Bush, since celebrity TM teachers only
> initiate other celebrities) went to a lot of trouble to raise money for
> Bush when he was trying to get the Republican presidential nomination
Okay, so far.
> and that this affinity for Bush seems to be based only upon
> the fact that Bush started TM (or, for some inexplicable reason, Mike
> Love and many other TM movement people merely were under the mistaken
> impression that Bush learned TM):
Or there was some other reason Mike Love supported Bush. Did you
forget to include that?
If that is all you have (Mike Love likes TM, Mike Love likes Bush,
therefore Bush must like TM) then you have NOTHING.
Do you have anything better to offer?
--
John Walkup
Lawson English
<chris.st...@mmt.bellhowell.com.cut_here.org.net.gov.com> said:
At the least, they need to be hopping at the same time, preferably in the
same place.
And only few paranoid people really suspect me, judy and the rest of being
shills for the TM movement.just think of us as nuts (hopefully charming,
but nuts nevertheless).
Lawson English
>> Er, yes, but Rush's show is *popular*. It is popular to attack people
that
>> you disagree with. It isn't popular to bounce around on your butt,
making a
>> fool out of yourself every day, twice a day for years on end.
>>
>
>Oh, come now Lawson. Don't you believe in your own beliefs?
I never said that I believed it, now did I?
I *hope* that it is true, but is such a hope ( faint one, at that) worth
ruining my life and the lives of my family?
If 7000 of
>you butt bouncers could eliminate droughts like the one now sucking the
>northeast dry, prevent deadly tornadoes, earthquakes, and hurricanes,
>make our homes and streets safe from crime, prevent wars, and "create
>Heaven on Earth," as the Maharishi claims, you would be called angels
>and saviors, not fools. Statues of the Maharishi would be errected all
>over the world. TM would be taught in every school. John Hagelin would
>be President of the United States. The Prime Minister of Great Britain
>would be a member of the Natural Law Party, as would every other world
>leader. Sadam Hussein would become a nice guy.
Actually, you are overstating the case for what is claimed in teh best-case
scenario for what would happen if a group of 7,000+ yogic flyers got
together every day.
The formal claim (as opposed to any rhetoric that you might find) is that
there would be a *measurable* effect from such a group -sufficient, it is
believed, to prevent another world war, and show up in statistical analysis
of the nature of world events, but not enough, by itself, to create "Heaven
on Earth." That's a much more long-term project than just getting 7,000+
Yogic Flyers together -that's only the FIRST step.
>
>But Lawson, I suspect that even you, like the Maharishi, don't believe
>the scam. You know that 7000 people getting together every day to bounce
>on their butts will not reduce the worlds problems one iota.
I remain unconvinced, but mildly hopeful.
The only
>benefit to humankind would be the humor of seeing 7000 deluded fools
>bouncing on their asses twice a day. That's why the TM movement is
>spending millions of dollars buying up real estate around the world, but
>not one dime to establish a center for 7000 Yogic Butt Bouncers/World
>Saviors.
Actually, the real estate purchases serve multiple functions, including
long term investment of capital, as well as the acquisition of land FOR the
purpose of creating the 7,000+ yogic flyers as well as for the secondary
goals which, according to theory, would need to be met for the
establishment of "Heaven on Earth."
>
>So go ahead and keep offering one silly excuse after another to explain
>why it's not yet possible to assemble 7000 Yogic Fliers to save the
>world. You're keeping a lot of readers rolling on the floor.
>
>Yup, you hop and we roll.
Hop and roll. Kool.
Lawson English
>Flying /butt bouncing has never been shown to have any effect on anything
>beyond the bouncers themselves. They had to have been powerless to begin
>with or they would they be doing such useless and moronic behavior. It is
>silly and outright insane to believe otherwise
Not true. There IS one published, peer-reviewed study on the local effects
of butt-bouncing on the EEG of a non-meditator. I can track down the URL if
you really are interested (which I doubt).
Candidly, since replications of THIS study would be far easier to do than
large scale projects like the DC project, one would expect the MIU folk to
have performed and published such studies. Since no such studies have been
published, I think it safe to say that no positive replication has ever
been done.
Lawson English
>> >But TM cannot get 7000 together to save the world. LOL!
>> >
>> >BTW, I only offered Rush Limbaugh's show as an EXAMPLE. Let's not
delve
>> >into Rush's show, okay?
>>
>> Er, yes, but Rush's show is *popular*. It is popular to attack people
that
>> you disagree with.
>
>Your assertion has no merit, because the people didn't congregate to
>attack
>others.
No, but they DO congregate (via the airwaves) to listen to Rush attack
others.
>
>> It isn't popular to bounce around on your butt, making a
>> fool out of yourself every day, twice a day for years on end.
>
>Congratulations, you have reached the first plateau!
>
>But in all seriousness, saving the world from pestilence and famine
>would be ENORMOUSLY popular IF YOU COULD DO IT. But they can't, and
>getting together and trying would prove they couldn't. That wouldn't
>be too popular.
>
>
Actually, they DO get together on a semi-regular basis for a few weeks
every year, but there are not enough Yogic Flyers living in close proximity
to each other to make it on a daily basis in the numbers large enough to
have an impact on the rest of the world.
For your example to be relevant, you must be claiming that some substantial
percentage of those 30,000 Rush fans who attended the bake sale flew in
from France and Germany and India and the UK and Israel, as is the case
when large numbers of Yogic Flyers get together for a hop-in.
Andrew Skolnick
>
> Lawson English wrote:
> >
> > John Walkup <cue...@telepath.com> said:
> >
> > >Consider this: One of Rush Limbaugh's fans wanted a free subscription
> > >to Rush's newsletter, but Rush said that he would have to raise the
> > >money himself, so he advised the listener to hold a bake sale.
> > >I don't remember how many of Rush's fans showed up to buy baked goods
> > >and help the listener get a subscription to the newsletter, but it was
> > >WAY over 7000. (I think the number was closer to 30,000, and they
> > >came from all over the country, including Canada.)
> > >
> > >
> > >BTW, I only offered Rush Limbaugh's show as an EXAMPLE. Let's not delve
> > >into Rush's show, okay?
> >
> > Er, yes, but Rush's show is *popular*. It is popular to attack people that
> > you disagree with.
>
> Your assertion has no merit, because the people didn't congregate to
> attack
> others.
>
> > fool out of yourself every day, twice a day for years on end.
>
> Congratulations, you have reached the first plateau!
>
> But in all seriousness, saving the world from pestilence and famine
> would be ENORMOUSLY popular IF YOU COULD DO IT. But they can't, and
> getting together and trying would prove they couldn't. That wouldn't
> be too popular.
Lawson knows that, but rather than admit it he sits by his computer
cooking up reasons why the Maharishi is unable to gather together at
least 7000 of the 80,000 people he taught Yogic Flying for regular butt
bouncing. From uncooperative wives to monsoons and insects, he keeps
offering the most silly lame excuses. What next, a shortage of rubber
cushions and Preparation H?
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Lawson English
>> Congratulations, you have reached the first plateau!
>>
>> But in all seriousness, saving the world from pestilence and famine
>> would be ENORMOUSLY popular IF YOU COULD DO IT. But they can't, and
>> getting together and trying would prove they couldn't. That wouldn't
>> be too popular.
>
>Lawson knows that, but rather than admit it he sits by his computer
>cooking up reasons why the Maharishi is unable to gather together at
>least 7000 of the 80,000 people he taught Yogic Flying for regular butt
>bouncing. From uncooperative wives to monsoons and insects, he keeps
>offering the most silly lame excuses. What next, a shortage of rubber
>cushions and Preparation H?
Sigh.
Uncertainty about whether or not the Maharishi Effect exists is certainly a
reason why many Yogic Flyers don't move to Fairfield, IA, but it isn't the
ONLY reason why people don't move there.
At times, the TM organization HAS tried to shame people into participating
in group yogic flying. I find the practice abhorant, and so do you, no
doubt.
But, you then turn around and find fault with the TM organization and the
Yogic Flyers for NOT being shamed into participating.
That's called hypocrisy.
Lawson English
>And only few paranoid people really suspect me, judy and the rest of being
>shills for the TM movement.just think of us as nuts (hopefully charming,
>but nuts nevertheless).
Er that should read: "most just think of as as nuts..."
Lawson English
>Who should be ashamed?
>
>Notice that the Dormouse snipped the part about *18,000* commuter
>college students fighting New York City traffic to attend Queens College
>every day. These are young adults who PAY a lot of money just to attend.
>They also have family lives and many have to work. That's 18,000 -- 2
>1/2 times the number of Yogic fliers needed to save the world! They are
>not "funded and enforced" to do this by any government.
>
Notice that Andrew acknowledges that many of these young people are being
subsidized.
Nor does he discuss the logistics of getting these people into a *single*
building every day at the same time (two actually -one for men and one for
women), nor does he mention the fact that these 18,000 are not all arriving
at exactly the same time nor departing at the same time every day in order
to make it to work.
>Similiar "implausible" feats are accomplished every day at Hunter,
>Brooklyn College, and the other schools that make up the New York City
>commuter college system. And similar or even greater "implausible" feats
>are accomplished on many commuter colleges throughout the country.
>
>Or how about a school like UCLA in crowded,
>limited-public-transportation Los Angeles? That school has more than
>36,000 students! Thousands of these students have families, children,
>and jobs. What's more, 16,785 faculty and staff come to campus every day
>to teach the 36,000 students! Together, that more than 7 times the
>number of yogic fliers needed to save the world!
>
>But Lawson insists that getting 7000 people together on a daily basis
>could only be done by the military!
Given the constraints of the group yogic flying, yes:
7:00 AM -doors open -7,000 people enter
7:45 AM -doors close (no being late allowed)
7:55 AM -meditation begins
as people finish their program, they leave
5:00 PM -doors open -7,000 people enter
5:45 PM -doors close (no being late allowed)
5:55 PM -meditation begins
as people finish their program, they leave
Recall that this is the SAME group of people every day, and they must
arrive in the SAME building at the SAME time, every day.
The logistics of handling this are quite a bit more complicated than for
handling the traffic needs of the junior college with 18,000 students
arriving and leaving at different times, and is, in some ways, more
challenging even than the problems facing the manager of a small football
stadium since the morning meditation takes place before work, so meditators
must be *certain* of leaving the building by a specific time, which isn't
the case when leaving a football game.
And junior colleges, football stadiums and UCLA have annual budgets of many
millions of dollars, although obviously not all the money is spent on
maintaining the schedule for the students/fans.
The problem isn't as easy to solve as your overwhelmingly simplistic and
hostile description of the issues suggests.
Andrew Skolnick
>
> Chris Stromberger
> <chris.st...@mmt.bellhowell.com.cut_here.org.net.gov.com> said:
>
> >On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 23:15:30 -0400, my...@netaxs.com (PZ Myers) wrote:
> >
> >>Have I missed something? Why do these yogic 'flyers' have to gather in
> >>one place?
> >
> >Because that makes it easier for them to make excuses as to why it's
> >just too hard to save the world right now.
> >
>
> At the least, they need to be hopping at the same time, preferably in the
> same place.
>
> shills for the TM movement.just think of us as nuts (hopefully charming,
> but nuts nevertheless).
Charming? Yes, Lawson, you are charming. But Judy?! Pleeeease!
-- Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Andrew Skolnick
>
> Andrew Skolnick <asko...@mindspring.com> said:
>
> >Flying /butt bouncing has never been shown to have any effect on anything
> >beyond the bouncers themselves. They had to have been powerless to begin
> >with or they would they be doing such useless and moronic behavior. It is
> >silly and outright insane to believe otherwise
Wrong, Dormouse. I didn't post that statement.
> Not true. There IS one published, peer-reviewed study on the local effects
> of butt-bouncing on the EEG of a non-meditator. I can track down the URL if
> you really are interested (which I doubt).
At least you are correct about that. I'm not interested.
> Candidly, since replications of THIS study would be far easier to do than
> large scale projects like the DC project, one would expect the MIU folk to
> have performed and published such studies. Since no such studies have been
> published, I think it safe to say that no positive replication has ever
> been done.
Yawn. Wonder why.
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Andrew Skolnick
>
> John Walkup <cue...@telepath.com> said:
>
> >> >But TM cannot get 7000 together to save the world. LOL!
> >> >
> >> >BTW, I only offered Rush Limbaugh's show as an EXAMPLE. Let's not
> delve
> >> >into Rush's show, okay?
> >>
> >> Er, yes, but Rush's show is *popular*. It is popular to attack people
> that
> >> you disagree with.
> >
> >Your assertion has no merit, because the people didn't congregate to
> >attack
> >others.
>
> others.
>
Yes. And the amazing thing is that when they do congregate via airwaves
to listen to Rush, shoplifting goes down in Altoona, Nebraska and the
rate of overdue library books drops dramatically in Hooterville,
Georgia. Positive proof that when a sufficient number of people meditate
on Rush Limbaugh, the resulting increased coherence of mindlessness has
a beneficial effect even on people who don't listen to him. The
phenomenon is known as the Dittohead Effect.
Lawson English
And yet, if the researchers at MIU were as dishonest as you like to
pretend, they would have fudged the data to get the replications in order
to get myriad hords of yogic flyers to shell out their hard-earned money to
attend group yogic flying.
Wait a minute, you've already indicated that the TM organization doesn't
want them to spend money on participating in expensive recurring group
projects, but only on the initial fees.
Sorry, how could I have been so blind?
Andrew Skolnick
>
> Lawson English wrote:
> >
>
> > building every day at the same time (two actually -one for men and one for
> > women), nor does he mention the fact that these 18,000 are not all arriving
> > at exactly the same time nor departing at the same time every day in order
> > to make it to work.
>
> out
> how to get over 100,000 people in there every weekend during football
> season.
>
> The logistics of getting 7000 people into an arena is child's play.
> Some churches do it quite often. And believe me, if the Southern
> Baptists thought that they could really save the world by gathering
> in prayer, they would have to create a new highway system and annex
> the Super Dome just to accomodate them. 7000 is NOTHING.
>
> > >But Lawson insists that getting 7000 people together on a daily basis
> > >could only be done by the military!
> >
> > Given the constraints of the group yogic flying, yes:
> >
> > 7:00 AM -doors open -7,000 people enter
> > 7:45 AM -doors close (no being late allowed)
> > 7:55 AM -meditation begins
>
> time to grab a cold urine and find a mat.
Grab a cold urine! I'm rolling on the floor!
> Besides, why not just use a stadium? In fact, you can make a lot
> of money at the same time. I know *I* would pay good money to grab
> a beer and watch a bunch of people bouncing all over the grass on
> Owen Field. We haven't had that kind of entertainment around here
> since Clinton wagged his finger and told us the "truth."
Oh, I'm sure Lawson can figure out at least 20 dozen excuses. All that
spilt beer makes the ground too sticky for yogic fliers to take off. The
pressure of the photons coming from the sky makes it hard for yogic
fliers to lift off. Existing stadiums don't have entrance doors facing
in the right direction and it would be too expensive to relocate the
doorways. The word "stadium" has an even number of letters, and an even
number of letters is not propitious -- you know, excuses like that. He's
quite good at coming up with them. Let's see, if I can recall just a few
of them, to get 7000 yogic butt bouncers together on a regular basis you
need the military with accurate watches, ample financial support for all
bouncers and their families, air conditioning, and... oh yeah, no
monsoons or insects. What a hoot!
Lawson's gymnastics reminds me of a poem by the great Shel Silverstein
that tells how a pathethic nerd tries to pick up a beautiful woman at a
bar. She politely declines his offer to take her home by saying that she
has a big, overly protective brother. He replies that if he beat up her
brother, could he take her home. She answers that her house is
surrounded by a moat with alligators. He asks if he could outswim the
alligators and then beat up her brother would she let him take her home.
Her excuses grow increasingly absurd. Nevertheless, in Silverstein's
story, the nerd finally catches on and asks, "you don't really want me
to take you home, do you." Lawson, I'm afraid, will never catch on.
Andrew Skolnick
>
> Lawson English wrote:
> >
> > there would be a *measurable* effect from such a group -sufficient, it is
> > believed, to prevent another world war,
>
> bouncing, they get the credit?
Who else is as worthy?
In case you haven't noticed, World War III, long predicted, never
occurred. And who do we have to credit for this? The Maharishi, of
course.
Kind of like:
TMer: "I wear this jhyotish crystal to keep rampaging elephants away."
Skeptic: "But there aren't any elephants anywhere near here."
TMer: "You see how well it works."
> > and show up in statistical analysis
> > of the nature of world events, but not enough, by itself, to create "Heaven
> > on Earth." That's a much more long-term project than just getting 7,000+
> > Yogic Flyers together -that's only the FIRST step.
>
> Yeah, it's best to start out small, like saving the world.
>
> > The only
> > >benefit to humankind would be the humor of seeing 7000 deluded fools
> > >bouncing on their asses twice a day. That's why the TM movement is
> > >spending millions of dollars buying up real estate around the world, but
> > >not one dime to establish a center for 7000 Yogic Butt Bouncers/World
> > >Saviors.
> >
> > Actually, the real estate purchases serve multiple functions, including
> > long term investment of capital, as well as the acquisition of land FOR the
> > purpose of creating the 7,000+ yogic flyers as well as for the secondary
> > goals which, according to theory, would need to be met for the
> > establishment of "Heaven on Earth."
>
> In other words, greed. Don't feel bad, that is why I acquire land
> myself. :)
>
> John Walkup
Ooooooh! Can I worship you?
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
iva...@medieval.net
care about the people in their homeland? Look at places like India. All those
claims by tons of "swamis" sure as hell haven't helped that rathole.
encapsulight wrote:
> Flying /butt bouncing has never been shown to have any effect on anything
> beyond the bouncers themselves. They had to have been powerless to begin
> with or they would they be doing such useless and moronic behavior. It is
> silly and outright insane to believe otherwise
>
PZ Myers
<4A7E3F8EB890F040.557D6CAE...@lp.airnews.net>,
chris.st...@mmt.bellhowell.com.cut_here.org.net.gov.com (Chris
Stromberger) wrote:
>On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 23:15:30 -0400, my...@netaxs.com (PZ Myers) wrote:
>
>>Have I missed something? Why do these yogic 'flyers' have to gather in
>>one place?
>
>Because that makes it easier for them to make excuses as to why it's
>just too hard to save the world right now.
Well, obviously...but I was hoping for an entertaining metaphysical excuse.
--
PZ Myers
John Walkup
>
> The formal claim (as opposed to any rhetoric that you might find) is that
> there would be a *measurable* effect from such a group -sufficient, it is
> believed, to prevent another world war,
LOL! So if a world war does not occur during the time they are
bouncing, they get the credit?
> and show up in statistical analysis
> of the nature of world events, but not enough, by itself, to create "Heaven
> on Earth." That's a much more long-term project than just getting 7,000+
> Yogic Flyers together -that's only the FIRST step.
Yeah, it's best to start out small, like saving the world.
> The only
> >benefit to humankind would be the humor of seeing 7000 deluded fools
> >bouncing on their asses twice a day. That's why the TM movement is
> >spending millions of dollars buying up real estate around the world, but
> >not one dime to establish a center for 7000 Yogic Butt Bouncers/World
> >Saviors.
>
> Actually, the real estate purchases serve multiple functions, including
> long term investment of capital, as well as the acquisition of land FOR the
> purpose of creating the 7,000+ yogic flyers as well as for the secondary
> goals which, according to theory, would need to be met for the
> establishment of "Heaven on Earth."
In other words, greed. Don't feel bad, that is why I acquire land
myself. :)
--
John Walkup
John Walkup
> >beyond the bouncers themselves. They had to have been powerless to begin
> >with or they would they be doing such useless and moronic behavior. It is
> >silly and outright insane to believe otherwise
>
> of butt-bouncing on the EEG of a non-meditator.
Everytime I think of what this experiment would have looked like,
I just can't stop from laughing.
"Okay, the EEG machine is hooked up. All right, meditators,
bounce those butts!'"
"Boing, boing, boing, boing..."
"Look, the EEG machine is reacting! Let's publish the results in the
magazine Mat and Butt!"
--
John Walkup
John Walkup
>
> Nor does he discuss the logistics of getting these people into a *single*
> building every day at the same time (two actually -one for men and one for
> women), nor does he mention the fact that these 18,000 are not all arriving
> at exactly the same time nor departing at the same time every day in order
> to make it to work.
Michigan stadium holds 110,000 people. They are somohow able to figure
out
how to get over 100,000 people in there every weekend during football
season.
The logistics of getting 7000 people into an arena is child's play.
Some churches do it quite often. And believe me, if the Southern
Baptists thought that they could really save the world by gathering
in prayer, they would have to create a new highway system and annex
the Super Dome just to accomodate them. 7000 is NOTHING.
> >But Lawson insists that getting 7000 people together on a daily basis
> >could only be done by the military!
>
> Given the constraints of the group yogic flying, yes:
>
> 7:00 AM -doors open -7,000 people enter
> 7:45 AM -doors close (no being late allowed)
> 7:55 AM -meditation begins
Why not open the doors at 6AM? That would give everyone plenty of
time to grab a cold urine and find a mat.
Besides, why not just use a stadium? In fact, you can make a lot
of money at the same time. I know *I* would pay good money to grab
a beer and watch a bunch of people bouncing all over the grass on
Owen Field. We haven't had that kind of entertainment around here
since Clinton wagged his finger and told us the "truth."
--
John Walkup
John Walkup
>
> John Walkup <cue...@telepath.com> said:
>
> >> >But TM cannot get 7000 together to save the world. LOL!
> >> >
> >> >BTW, I only offered Rush Limbaugh's show as an EXAMPLE. Let's not
> delve
> >> >into Rush's show, okay?
> >>
> >> Er, yes, but Rush's show is *popular*. It is popular to attack people
> that
> >> you disagree with.
> >
> >Your assertion has no merit, because the people didn't congregate to
> >attack
> >others.
>
> No, but they DO congregate (via the airwaves) to listen to Rush attack
> others.
But I was explicitly referring to the bake sale. Remember?
--
John Walkup
John Walkup
>
> Lawson English wrote:
> >
> > No, but they DO congregate (via the airwaves) to listen to Rush attack
> > others.
> >
>
> Yes. And the amazing thing is that when they do congregate via airwaves
> to listen to Rush, shoplifting goes down in Altoona, Nebraska and the
> rate of overdue library books drops dramatically in Hooterville,
> Georgia. Positive proof that when a sufficient number of people meditate
> on Rush Limbaugh, the resulting increased coherence of mindlessness has
> a beneficial effect even on people who don't listen to him. The
> phenomenon is known as the Dittohead Effect.
Didn't I ask us NOT to delve into the show? Wasn't I clear?
Now we won't stop talking about Rush for the next month.
--
John Walkup (Dittohead)
Encapsulight
tried proof that they have to be full of it --look at the state of where the
whole pant load came from ---that is as good as the crappola they are
telling people about here has ever produced /can produce in thousands of
years!!
The West always has been far more enlightened for real---to following people
like MMY is to go backwards into the abyss giving up or putting aside
clearly superior and much more productive super enlightened western ways of
being, thinking, doing!!
There is nothing that they bring to us except roadblocks that only they can
remove because they created them in the first instance!!
They learned as children in India, to entertain for food and money with a
bunch of mind games, pseudo spiritual nonsense and magical thinking/claims
because in India that flew !
They practice for a long time --get the routine down-then come and
inner-hoodwink the fools in the West!!
That is what they have brought to the West and that is all. It has really no
meaning except to point out how dysfunctional people are or can be.
All MMY is is an Indian entreprenuer doing business here based upon the
routine he learned in India!!
A yogic flyer/butt bouncer is a person who has learned to be totally
dysfunctional/nonfunctional for the period of time he or she is butt
bouncing--that is all it is and all it ever will be!!
Learning to butt bounce is the same essentially the same as pretend to be
brain damaged!!
The whole pathetic routine from start to finish is a big joke played on the
gullible West!!
<iva...@medieval.net> wrote in message
news:37AF0FB1...@medieval.net...
> Why do these "mystics" always show up in rich western countries? Don't
they
> care about the people in their homeland? Look at places like India. All
those
> claims by tons of "swamis" sure as hell haven't helped that rathole.
>
> encapsulight wrote:
>
> > Flying /butt bouncing has never been shown to have any effect on
anything
> > beyond the bouncers themselves. They had to have been powerless to begin
> > with or they would they be doing such useless and moronic behavior. It
is
> > silly and outright insane to believe otherwise
> >
John Walkup
>
> John Walkup wrote:
> >
> > Lawson English wrote:
> > > Actually, the real estate purchases serve multiple functions, including
> > > long term investment of capital, as well as the acquisition of land FOR the
> > > purpose of creating the 7,000+ yogic flyers as well as for the secondary
> > > goals which, according to theory, would need to be met for the
> > > establishment of "Heaven on Earth."
> >
> > In other words, greed. Don't feel bad, that is why I acquire land
> > myself. :)
>
> Ooooooh! Can I worship you?
It's the IN thing to do, so join the crowd!
--
John Walkup
John Walkup
>
> Exactly the point!! No one ever looks at the serious and time tested and
> tried proof that they have to be full of it --look at the state of where the
> whole pant load came from ---that is as good as the crappola they are
> telling people about here has ever produced /can produce in thousands of
> years!!
>
> The West always has been far more enlightened for real---to following people
> like MMY is to go backwards into the abyss giving up or putting aside
> clearly superior and much more productive super enlightened western ways of
> being, thinking, doing!!
They do it to soothe their consciences. There is a huge emotional
motive to giving the downtrodden mystical powers. It lets those
that have a guilt complex over Western conquest share the belief that,
deep-down, those at the bottom have really got the best of us.
But they haven't. It's all an illusion. And while one side
progresses, the other side wastes its time on such foolishness.
--
John Walkup
Ivan Colman
John Walkup wrote:
Andrew Skolnick
>
> Has one ever taught about the earthquake that bouncing could result in ???
Not possible, according to TM thinking. Earthquakes occur where there
are faults and the Maharishi has no faults.
:-) Andrew Skolnick
Andrew Skolnick
>
> Why do these "mystics" always show up in rich western countries? Don't they
> care about the people in their homeland? Look at places like India. All those
> claims by tons of "swamis" sure as hell haven't helped that rathole.
Your question reminds me of the one a reporter asked of the legendary
bank robber Willie Sutton. "Hey Willie, why do you rob banks?"
"'Cause that's where the money is," replied the bank robber.
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Andrew Skolnick
>
> Exactly the point!! No one ever looks at the serious and time tested and
> tried proof that they have to be full of it --look at the state of where the
> whole pant load came from ---that is as good as the crappola they are
> telling people about here has ever produced /can produce in thousands of
> years!!
>
> The West always has been far more enlightened for real---to following people
> like MMY is to go backwards into the abyss giving up or putting aside
> clearly superior and much more productive super enlightened western ways of
> being, thinking, doing!!
> remove because they created them in the first instance!!
> They learned as children in India, to entertain for food and money with a
> bunch of mind games, pseudo spiritual nonsense and magical thinking/claims
> because in India that flew !
> They practice for a long time --get the routine down-then come and
> inner-hoodwink the fools in the West!!
> That is what they have brought to the West and that is all. It has really no
> meaning except to point out how dysfunctional people are or can be.
> All MMY is is an Indian entreprenuer doing business here based upon the
> routine he learned in India!!
> A yogic flyer/butt bouncer is a person who has learned to be totally
> dysfunctional/nonfunctional for the period of time he or she is butt
> bouncing--that is all it is and all it ever will be!!
> Learning to butt bounce is the same essentially the same as pretend to be
> brain damaged!!
> The whole pathetic routine from start to finish is a big joke played on the
> gullible West!!
But it does have it's entertainment value. And laughing at them doesn't
seem to hurt their feelings. Like clowns in a circus, TMers seem to
enjoy being laughed at. They even call themselves blissninnies.
Every decade the Maharishi introduces a new act. Can't wait to see what
he's going to present for the new millenium. Grab some popcorn and
watch.
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Ivan Colman
X
> > Has one ever taught about the earthquake that bouncing could result in ???
>
> Not possible, according to TM thinking. Earthquakes occur where there
> are faults and the Maharishi has no faults.
Except that the height of his bounces might leave something to be desired.
d.
Avital Pilpel
> Lawson English wrote:
> >
> > The formal claim (as opposed to any rhetoric that you might find) is
that
> > there would be a *measurable* effect from such a group -sufficient, it
is
> > believed, to prevent another world war,
>
> LOL! So if a world war does not occur during the time they are
> bouncing, they get the credit?
Of course, but they would be lying.
In fact, it is *me* who save the world every day. I use my psychic powers
every morning to make the leaders of the world NOT start WWIII for another
24 hours.
I mean, this is a perfectly measurable effect - WWIII hasn't happened yet,
now has it?
So THERE!
Avital Pilpel
> > myself. :)
> >
>
> Ooooooh! Can I worship you?
>
Only if you pay him $5000 dollars for a meditation course first.
Avital Pilpel
> time, so any coincidental positive world events can be attributed to it.
... while claiming that they didn't actually save the world because they
didn't meditate long enough, but they could have if they would have wanted
to.
Uh-huh. And my amazing psychic powers can eliminate hunger: I used them for
an hour this morning, and *millions* of people ate some food during that
hour!
I could have eliminate hunger forever if I had used those powers for
*another* hour, you see, but I suddenly remembered I haven't eaten breakfast
so I had to stop.
Lawson English
>Ivan Colman wrote:
>>
>> Has one ever taught about the earthquake that bouncing could result in
>???
>
>Not possible, according to TM thinking. Earthquakes occur where there
>are faults and the Maharishi has no faults.
Actually, according to legend, one of the early yogic flying classes was
held in a hotel in Europe. They made the mistake of hopping around in the
ballroom on the second floor and ended up paying a large sum of money for
structural damage due to 100's of people hopping up and down for several
weeks. Since large groups of 'Flyers often hop in synchrony, you get all
sorts of resonance effects from the hopping which can cause damage to
buildings.
Lawson English
True enough -TM costs money in the West. In India, it is free. OBvioiusly,
you can't fund expansion to the rest of the world by teaching in India,
but you can if you teach in the US and other wealthy nations.
Lawson English
>Lawson English wrote:
>>
>> The formal claim (as opposed to any rhetoric that you might find) is
that
>> there would be a *measurable* effect from such a group -sufficient, it
is
>> believed, to prevent another world war,
>
>LOL! So if a world war does not occur during the time they are
>bouncing, they get the credit?
No. Preventing war is not measurable. However, there ARE global quality of
life indicators that might be used, especially since a permanent group
hasn't been established.
>
>> and show up in statistical analysis
>> of the nature of world events, but not enough, by itself, to create
"Heaven
>> on Earth." That's a much more long-term project than just getting 7,000+
>> Yogic Flyers together -that's only the FIRST step.
>
>Yeah, it's best to start out small, like saving the world.
Yep. Getting 7,000 (actually, about 10,000) together is easy compared to
the next step, which involves establishing a Maharishi Effect group in
every country sufficiently large to effect that country.
The final step would be to establish a group in every large community
sufficiently large to effect every community.
Of course, this was the original plan and I believe some of the details
have changed in the past decade or so.
>
>> The only
>> >benefit to humankind would be the humor of seeing 7000 deluded fools
>> >bouncing on their asses twice a day. That's why the TM movement is
>> >spending millions of dollars buying up real estate around the world,
but
>> >not one dime to establish a center for 7000 Yogic Butt Bouncers/World
>> >Saviors.
>>
>> Actually, the real estate purchases serve multiple functions, including
>> long term investment of capital, as well as the acquisition of land FOR
>the
>> purpose of creating the 7,000+ yogic flyers as well as for the secondary
>> goals which, according to theory, would need to be met for the
>> establishment of "Heaven on Earth."
>
>In other words, greed. Don't feel bad, that is why I acquire land
>myself. :)
>
Yar, it is greed to make long-term investments in real estate, make use of
the land/buildings within the charter of the non-profit organization that
made the purchase, and eventually sell the real estate and use the proceeds
to further the goals of the non-profit organization.
Greedy as you can get. :)
PZ Myers
<eng...@primenet.com> wrote:
Humor me. On what basis was this claim that a certain number of yogic butt-
bouncers would bring peace and happiness to the world originally made?
Where did these magic numbers (7,000 or 10,000 whatever) come from?
Why should anyone ever take these extraordinary claims seriously?
--
PZ Myers
Lawson English
>>Of course, this was the original plan and I believe some of the details
>>have changed in the past decade or so.
>>
>
>Humor me. On what basis was this claim that a certain number of yogic
>butt-
>bouncers would bring peace and happiness to the world originally made?
>
>Where did these magic numbers (7,000 or 10,000 whatever) come from?
>
>Why should anyone ever take these extraordinary claims seriously?
WAAAY back when (late '60's), MMY, an MIU physicist named Lawrence Domash,
and a Cambridge physicist named Brain Josephsen were participating in
various "Science of Creative Intelligence" symposia sponsored by the TM
organization.
MMY referred to a Sanskrit concept called "ahimsa" or "non-violence" and
claimed that it had been misinterpreted. Ahimsa didn't refer to an attitude
that an enlightened person took, but rather to a field-effect, as
"documented" in the Sanskrit phrase that he translates as "in the vicinity
of Yoga, violent tendencies are eliminated."
Domash suggested that this could be an example of a well-known phenomenon
in physics and chemistry where a small percentage of a substance, having
changed state, would influence the rest of the substance and make it easier
to change (e.g. ice crystals forming). Josephson took the anlogy further
and made reference to his own work in QM and suggested that perhaps only 1%
of a population practicing TM might have a measurable effect on the rest of
the population.
When TM became a fad in the early 70's, several US cities reached the "1%
level" practicing TM within a few months and TM researchers claimed that
the year that the cities reached 1% practicing TM, the crime rate dropped
while in matched control cities where the TM-level was considerably less
than 1%, the crime didn't drop.
Later on, the TM organization attempted to teach 1% of Rhode Island to
meditate in only a few months in order to demonstate the 1% effect on a
state-wide level, but they failed. However, since Rhode Island is such a
small state, most of the TM teachers would meet together every day and
practice their newly learned Yogic Flying technique.
Domash and MMY suggested that the synergistic effect of having a small
group of people do yogic flying together would be the same as having 1% of
the population doing TM, so TM researchers went ahead and performed their
little statistical analysis and found the 1% effect occuring in Rhode
Island whenever the Yogic FLying group got larger than about the
square-root of 1% of Rhode Island's population.
7,000, by the way, was approximately the square-root of 1% of the world's
population at the time the effect was first observed by TM researchers, so
they predicted that if 7,000+ Yogic Flyers were to hop around together, it
would have a measurable effect on the rest of the world.
They got about that many people togehter for 2 weeks during Christmas of
'83, I believe, and claimed that the predicted effect occured.
PZ Myers
<eng...@primenet.com> wrote:
>PZ Myers <my...@netaxs.com> said:
>
>>>Of course, this was the original plan and I believe some of the details
>>>have changed in the past decade or so.
>>>
>>
>>Humor me. On what basis was this claim that a certain number of yogic
>>butt-
>>bouncers would bring peace and happiness to the world originally made?
>>
>>Where did these magic numbers (7,000 or 10,000 whatever) come from?
>>
>>Why should anyone ever take these extraordinary claims seriously?
>
>WAAAY back when (late '60's), MMY, an MIU physicist named Lawrence Domash,
>and a Cambridge physicist named Brain Josephsen were participating in
I presume you mean Brian Josephson, the Nobel-winning physicist, the guy
who now babbles about telepathy and telekinesis?
>various "Science of Creative Intelligence" symposia sponsored by the TM
>organization.
>
>MMY referred to a Sanskrit concept called "ahimsa" or "non-violence" and
>claimed that it had been misinterpreted. Ahimsa didn't refer to an attitude
>that an enlightened person took, but rather to a field-effect, as
>"documented" in the Sanskrit phrase that he translates as "in the vicinity
>of Yoga, violent tendencies are eliminated."
It's good to see that you put "documented" in quotes. That's a pretty soft
justification.
>
>Domash suggested that this could be an example of a well-known phenomenon
>in physics and chemistry where a small percentage of a substance, having
>changed state, would influence the rest of the substance and make it easier
>to change (e.g. ice crystals forming).
Ah. A wonderful example of a bad analogy -- one made with no reasonable
correspondence to the phenomenon. This isn't a good justification either.
>Josephson took the anlogy further
>and made reference to his own work in QM and suggested that perhaps only 1%
>of a population practicing TM might have a measurable effect on the rest of
>the population.
In other words, he plucked "1%" out of his butt. The number is meaningless,
and has no quantitative foundation.
>
>When TM became a fad in the early 70's, several US cities reached the "1%
>level" practicing TM within a few months and TM researchers claimed that
>the year that the cities reached 1% practicing TM, the crime rate dropped
>while in matched control cities where the TM-level was considerably less
>than 1%, the crime didn't drop.
>
>Later on, the TM organization attempted to teach 1% of Rhode Island to
>meditate in only a few months in order to demonstate the 1% effect on a
>state-wide level, but they failed. However, since Rhode Island is such a
>small state, most of the TM teachers would meet together every day and
>practice their newly learned Yogic Flying technique.
>
>Domash and MMY suggested that the synergistic effect of having a small
>group of people do yogic flying together would be the same as having 1% of
>the population doing TM, so TM researchers went ahead and performed their
>little statistical analysis and found the 1% effect occuring in Rhode
>Island whenever the Yogic FLying group got larger than about the
>square-root of 1% of Rhode Island's population.
>
>
>7,000, by the way, was approximately the square-root of 1% of the world's
>population at the time the effect was first observed by TM researchers, so
>they predicted that if 7,000+ Yogic Flyers were to hop around together, it
>would have a measurable effect on the rest of the world.
>
>They got about that many people togehter for 2 weeks during Christmas of
>'83, I believe, and claimed that the predicted effect occured.
You do realize that this is godawful bad 'science', don't you?
The idea that a few meditators could have global effects has no reasonable
historical antecedent. It is not an idea that arose from a reliable foundation
of prior scientific research. It's source seems to be from a questionable
interpretation of an old semi-religious text.
The justification by analogy is really, really bad. Why not make the analogy
with nuclear fission and say that if enough meditators get close enough
together, their brains will explode in a chain reaction? It's bogus either
way.
The numbers are ad hoc guesses. There was no reason to say 1%, and clearly
the 'research' is directed at supporting that meaningless number. The claim
that only the square root of 1% of the population need to be yogic flyers
is laughable -- somebody obviously thought they needed to toss a "square root"
in there to make it sound scientific. And how could you determine that
that fraction of a population was needed from ONE sample, the RI study?
There is still no plausible mechanism given. Why should I believe one
word of this crap when nobody can even speculate about how it would work?
--
PZ Myers
Avital Pilpel
> with nuclear fission and say that if enough meditators get close enough
> together, their brains will explode in a chain reaction?
That's more or less what happens when they get together, isn't it?
PZ Myers
<ap...@columbia.edu> wrote:
Cool. Any videos of that around? It would be much more interesting than
butt-bouncing.
--
PZ Myers
bbri...@hotmail.com
my...@netaxs.com (PZ Myers) wrote:
> In article <B3D7227...@206.165.43.20>, "Lawson English"
> <eng...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >PZ Myers <my...@netaxs.com> said:
> >
> >WAAAY back when (late '60's), MMY, an MIU physicist named Lawrence
Domash,
> >and a Cambridge physicist named Brain Josephsen were participating in
>
> I presume you mean Brian Josephson, the Nobel-winning physicist, the
guy
> who now babbles about telepathy and telekinesis?
<snip>
I think it's worth noting here that Domash, former president of
Maharishi International University, not only quit meditating, but sued
the TM movement (I think it was something to do with whether a minor
child of his would or would not practice TM).
Bob Brigante
http://more.at/mumbull
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Sherilyn
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I think a combination of the two would be quite a sight... ;)
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Lawson English
>I think it's worth noting here that Domash, former president of
>Maharishi International University, not only quit meditating, but sued
>the TM movement (I think it was something to do with whether a minor
>child of his would or would not practice TM).
Now THAT is a strange story. Sometime after Domash left MIU, he showed up
at a local TM teacher's house here in Tucson and they went hiking. I never
heard ANYTHING like that from his long-time friend, a former lecturer at
MIU.
Where did YOU hear it from?
bbri...@hotmail.com
"Lawson English" <eng...@primenet.com> wrote:
> bbri...@hotmail.com said:
>
> >I think it's worth noting here that Domash, former president of
> >Maharishi International University, not only quit meditating, but
sued
> >the TM movement (I think it was something to do with whether a minor
> >child of his would or would not practice TM).
>
> Now THAT is a strange story. Sometime after Domash left MIU, he
showed up
> at a local TM teacher's house here in Tucson and they went hiking. I
never
> heard ANYTHING like that from his long-time friend, a former lecturer
at
> MIU.
>
> Where did YOU hear it from?
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> Lawson English. Squeak, snore, etc.
> Check out <http://www.squeak.org>
There must be somebody on this list who was at MIU when Domash split --
let's hear from them. I only heard about it second-hand when I went to
work at MIU in 86. The thing is, the TM movement doesn't allow any
reportage of facts in the student newspaper or in the Fairfield Source,
so it's inevitable that it's hard to substantiate rumors -- I suppose
if I was a full-fledged investigative reporter, I would dig up the
court records, but that seems kind of pointless, since everybody is
aware that many leaders/MIU faculty members of the TM movement have
quit meditating and/or sued the movement (Domash, Chopra, John
Gray,Roark, Denaro and so on).
Bob Brigante
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/3996/feedback.html#html
Judy Stein
Andrew Skolnick <asko...@mindspring.com> wrote:
<snip>
> According to a TM web site
> (http://www.maharishi-india.org/programmes/p2sidhi.html), more than
> 80,000 TMers have learned to fly. If that claim is true, TM coffers
> received more than a quarter of a BILLION dollars from teaching these
> TMers to hop on their butts.
>
> More than 80,000 Yogic Fliers and more than a quarter of a billion
> dollars, and the TM movement can't afford to get fewer than 9% of its
> Yogic Fliers together to save the world.
Andrew appears to be making the astonishing assumption that all
the money from the fees was pure profit for the movement--that it
cost the movement zero dollars to teach 80,000 TMers the
TM-Sidhis program.
Here are some of the costs to the movement involved, for each
TM-Sidhis course:
o Some percentage of the promotional costs to advertise the course
o Administrative costs for extensive processing of applications
and follow-up of students' progress during the course
o Some percentage of the rent and upkeep for the local centers
hosting the center portion of the course over the introductory
and application process and the six course weekends
o Payment to TM teachers at local centers for leading the initial
lectures and application sessions and for organizing and
supervising the center portion of the course over six weekends
o Elaborate setup of each local center for each of those six
weekends, including significant telephone long-distance charges
o Two weeks' private room and board per student for the "flying
block" portion of the course at a TM facility, including
"banquets" every night
o A large support staff at each facility to organize the flying
block portion and see that it ran smoothly, and to handle
students' personal needs and ensure their physical comfort
o Elaborate setup at the facilities for the course itself, plus
administrative costs to the facilities
o Salaries for one set of Sidhi administrators (one couple) for
the six weekends and for one set per facility for the two-week
flying block, plus their room and board, plus any necessary
follow-up attention after the course
I think I've covered most of what the movement would have had to
pay in the U.S. in connection with my TM-Sidhis course in 1984
(for which I paid $3,000), which I believe involved 150 or so
students at a dozen or so local centers and two residential TM
facilities. The format of the course has changed somewhat over
the years, so different costs would have been involved at
different times. And the course fee went up to, I believe,
$5,000 a few years ago.
I wouldn't know how to estimate how much of the approximately
$500,000 in fees taken in for my course was profit and how much
went to cover costs. But I sure felt as though I had received
*at least* $3,000 worth of instruction and personal attention,
plus the room and board, when I was done. Not to mention, of
course, the subsequent benefits of the practice I had learned.
> Judging by Lawson's lame excuse, I suspect nothing is too silly
> to be believed by people who say they can learn to fly by
> bouncing on their butts.
Well, readers will have to balance the purported silliness of the
TMers against Andrew Skolnick's deliberately malicious attempts
to mislead.
Another time perhaps we can get into the highly misleading nature
of Andrew's phrase "who say they can learn to fly by bouncing on
their butts." He knows that's a gross misrepresentation of
what's involved with Yogic Flying, just as he knew the movement
hadn't reaped a quarter billion dollars in profit from teaching
the TM-Sidhis course when he wrote the post I'm responding to.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Judy Stein * The Author's Friend * jst...@panix.com +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Judy Stein
<snip>
> Why wouldn't they? They were all so eager to part with thousands of
> dollars just to learn to hop.
Actually that isn't why most people pay money to learn the
TM-Sidhis, as Andrew well knwos.
> And they are already spending hours a day hopping.
As Andrew well knows, they are doing no such thing.
<snip>
> The truth is even that they don't believe the Maharhishi's bull enough
> to put their beliefs to the test. That's why they refuse to do it unless
> governments are willing to give them billions of dollars.
Andrew, it is really, *really* unbecoming for you, as an
award-winning journalist, to preface statements you know to be
false with "The truth is..."
Judy Stein
Andrew Skolnick <asko...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
<snip>
> > You have a point. It is one thing to *hope* that MMY is correct, and
> > another to pack up your families, quit your jobs, and move someplace just
> > so you can butt-bounce in a large group every day in order to save the
> > Earth. And of course, what if your family doesn't want to move? Do you
> > leave them or let the Earth fend for itself?
>
> Come off of it Lawson, your family like everybody else's family live on
> the same planet -- the one that your guru says can be turned into Heaven
> by a measly 7000 butt bouncers! Don't you want to save your familyies
> from war, crime, pestilence, famine, and the mockery of skeptics?
The question is what the families want to do, or want you to do.
And notice that Andrew didn't address Lawson's point. Believing
and wanting and hoping is one thing; completely disrupting your
and your family's lives on that basis is quite another.
> Furthermore, not all TM butt bouncers have families. What about all
> those TM monks and nuns? What do they do with their celibrate days
> besides crank out more propaganda for the movement?
Uh, they do a long group program twice a day, every day. That's
the center of the Purusha and Mother Divine programs; anything
else is incidental.
In other words, they do every day what a large Super Radiance
group would be doing. If there were 7000 of them, there'd be no
need for anybody else, but there's only several hundred of each.
> Why don't you put them to work to save the world from war,
> famine, crime, pestilence, and the mockery of skeptics?
As noted, they're already doing that.
(And Andrew knew this, by the way, so as usual he was attempting
to mislead readers.)
Judy Stein
Andrew Skolnick <asko...@spam.block.mindspring.com> wrote:
<snip>
> But Lawson insists getting 7000 people together on a regular basis is
> "implausible" for any group other than the military!
No, he didn't. Andrew's lying *again*.
Here's what Lawson said:
the logistics and financing required to get 7,000 butt-bouncers
together on a twice-daily, *permanent* basis isn't trivial.
"Isn't *trivial*" is what Lawson said. Quite a difference from
"is implausible."
What Lawson said was entirely reasonable, and Andrew couldn't see
any way to mock it and turn it into an indictment of TMers.
So what does Andrew do? Why, he just makes something up that he
*can* mock and puts it in Lawson's mouth.
Andrew chronically, deliberately, and maliciously misquotes
TMers. No conscience. No integrity. If the reality doesn't
suit his agenda, he creates one that does, without even a second
thought.
Andrew is an award-winning journalist, you know. Wonder how many
of his awards were won for articles in which he deliberately and
maliciously misquoted those he interviewed?
<snip>
> The excuses of TM apologists are so transparent. And oh soooooo
> funny!
What is oh sooooo funny--or would be if Andrew weren't such a
pathetic fool--is the transparency of his lies.
How sad to be so out of tune with the world as it is. How sad to
feel so constantly behind the eight-ball that the only way you
can discuss an area of disagreement is to lie to prop up your
totally inadequate case.
Judy Stein
Dene Bebbington <de...@bebbo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Andrew Skolnick <asko...@mindspring.com> writes:
> >Dene Bebbington wrote:
<snip>
> >> In fact, the movement did apparently get together around 7000 butt
> >> hoppers between Dec 83 and Jan 84 at MIU.
> >
> >I know. They did that a couple of other times too. That's why I said
> >"established" as opposed to staging a gathering.
>
> Yeah, I was pointing out that they have managed to get together 7000
> butt hoppers, in contrast to some of Lawson's previous excuses.
You missed Andrew's point, Dene. These were *temporary* groups,
not permanent ones. Participants had only to arrange for a
couple weeks' time off their jobs and family responsibilities.
Lawson's been talking about the problems of establishing a
permanent group.
> >> It has been claimed that the end of the cold war was the result of
> >> groups doing butt hopping.
> >
> >Hmmm. Thousands of species of animals and plants became extinct around
> >that time too. The incarceration rate in the U.S. skyrocketed. Many
> >other bad things also increased. TM pseudoscientists like to claim
> >responsibility for all good events while denying responsibility for all
> >bad events. They're just a bunch of deluded fools going around with
> >paint buckets and brushes painting bullseyes around the arrows they
> >shoot.
>
> Indeed. It suits them well to have the mass hopping for short periods of
> time, so any coincidental positive world events can be attributed to it.
I guess you missed Lawson's response, which completely demolishes
Andrew's lie: Maharishi has *insisted* that all negative events
are our responsibility as well as the positive events.
And by the way, the goals of the large temporary gatherings have
been announced in advance, quite specifically. They wouldn't do
that if they were just planning to take advantage of coincidental
positive world events.
<snip>
> Perhaps after a while their personal lives and committments become more
> important than the world peace they believe can be created by hopping on
> their butts.
Bingo. And that's a source of enormous concern for Maharishi; he
regularly pleads with us, remonstrates with us, guilt-trips us,
for being so short-sighted.
So much for his supposed hypnotic influence over TMers. It would
seem he's not so good at this mind control business.
> >The truth is even that they don't believe the Maharhishi's bull enough
> >to put their beliefs to the test. That's why they refuse to do it unless
> >governments are willing to give them billions of dollars.
Andrew's a little confused here; he's got his "theys" mixed up.
> I think that any prolonged project of 7000+ butt hoppers would expose
> the naked emperor, and so it's unlikely to happen.
Ever since I've been associated with TM, there have been repeated
attempts to get a group of 7000 together on a permanent basis.
First it was at MIU. But not enough TMers wanted to move to a
cornfield in Iowa.
Then it was in Washington, D.C. TMers, especially those
practicing the TM-Sidhis, were all urged to move to D.C. Lots
did, but again not enough.
Then it was MIU again. Then it was in India.
None of these attempts have been successful, to Maharishi's
intense disappointment. *All* the signals from the movement have
been in the direction of encouraging, urging, wheedling,
pleading, demanding, and crisis mongering (every time there's a
world crisis, the demand intensifies), and then roundly scolding
when not enough have complied.
And the crisis mongering has begun to verge on hysteria,
especially during the Kosovo war: we were told we could expect
bombs to fall on U.S. and European cities if we didn't get it
together with groups of 7000. Maharishi has also recently been
waving the threat of biological and chemical warfare at us.
From the most recent "Enlightenment" magazine, a piece by Bevan
Morris:
"Can you imagine if bombs began to fall on Washington, DC and to
destroy the high-rises of the money markets of New York? Will
NATO be able to prevent this? When our house is in
uncontrollable flames, it is to late to dig a well to get the
water [to put it out]. Better to prevent the house from catching
fire in the first place. Maharishi's approach to creating world
peace and preventing all future wars must be fully applied with
greatest urgency. The alternative is unthinkable."
There has never been *any* indication that the movement didn't
really want us to do it--distinctly to the contrary. The movement
has tried one thing after another, and keeps dreaming up new
schemes to get 7000 groups together. But so far it hasn't been
able to find the right formula.
Part of the problem, I think, is that most of those who practice
the TM-Sidhis are not directly affected by the most serious world
problems. Apparently the handful of Sidhas in the Balkans are
incredibly dedicated, gathering in each other's homes to do
program together as often as they can. But for most of the rest
of us, war and famine and other disasters are just too distant to
seem that urgent.
Judy Stein
John Walkup <cue...@telepath.com> wrote:
<snip>
> Consider this: One of Rush Limbaugh's fans wanted a free subscription
> to Rush's newsletter, but Rush said that he would have to raise the
> money himself, so he advised the listener to hold a bake sale.
> I don't remember how many of Rush's fans showed up to buy baked goods
> and help the listener get a subscription to the newsletter, but it was
> WAY over 7000. (I think the number was closer to 30,000, and they
> came from all over the country, including Canada.)
>
> But TM cannot get 7000 together to save the world. LOL!
>
> BTW, I only offered Rush Limbaugh's show as an EXAMPLE. Let's not delve
> into Rush's show, okay?
Well, we *could* at least consider Limbaugh's reputation for
honesty and accuracy in terms of how seriously we should take
this report even as an example.
Not to mention the likelihood on its face of 30,000 people
showing up for a bake sale. One would assume if that were the
case, there would be plenty of documentation of this
extraordinary happening in the local newspapers, if not the
national media. Was there?
But let's pretend we have no reason to doubt the account.
Let's just note how very different the *situations* are: In the
case of the bake sale, people showing up for a one-time event, at
an hour of their choice, staying for a few hours (or perhaps
overnight), with or without their families, then returning home
again; versus, in the case of the TM 7000 group, giving up their
homes and jobs, moving permanently to the site in question, with
their families (if they haven't deserted them for the purpose),
then showing up twice a day seven days a week at specific times
for an indefinite period of some years at the least.
Want to reconsider the relevance of your example?
Judy Stein
Andrew Skolnick <asko...@block.spam.mindspring.com> wrote:
> Encapsulight wrote:
<snip>
> > The whole pathetic routine from start to finish is a big joke
> > played on the gullible West!!
>
> But it does have it's entertainment value.
(As does Andrew's command of grammar and spelling.)
> And laughing at them doesn't seem to hurt their feelings.
Gee, Andrew, wonder why?
One possibility for you to consider is that ridicule is a cheap
form of rebuttal, and most intelligent people recognize that the
fact that something can be ridiculed is not sufficient grounds
by itself for dismissing it.
They also recognize that ridicule is often used as a poor
substitute for reasoned argument, when reasoned argument is hard
to come by, either because of the intellectual limitations of the
person doing the ridiculing, or because there really are no solid
arguments against what he is ridiculing (or both).
Moreover, ridicule is unlikely to "hurt the feelings" of those
who have confidence in their position; indeed, to such people it
makes the ridiculer look ridiculous.
And then there's also the *quality* of the ridicule to be
considered. *Pointed* ridicule which takes account of the known
facts has at least a somewhat better chance of getting under the
skin of even those who have confidence in their positions than
ridicule based on gross distortion and ignorant (or malicious)
factual inaccuracy. As well, such grotesque ridicule is much
more likely to be perceived as weak and ineffectual by the
intelligent observer.
So for all these reasons, Andrew, we would encourage you to
continue to ridicule us, just as you have been doing.
Judy Stein
John Walkup <cue...@telepath.com> wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
<snip>
> > Not true. There IS one published, peer-reviewed study on the
> > local effects of butt-bouncing on the EEG of a non-meditator.
>
> Everytime I think of what this experiment would have looked like,
> I just can't stop from laughing.
>
> "Okay, the EEG machine is hooked up. All right, meditators,
> bounce those butts!'"
>
> "Boing, boing, boing, boing..."
>
> "Look, the EEG machine is reacting! Let's publish the results in the
> magazine Mat and Butt!"
Are you interested in how the study was *actually* conducted, or
do you prefer to revel in your humorous but utterly inaccurate
fantasy?
Judy Stein
Andrew Skolnick <asko...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
<snip>
> > Er, yes, but Rush's show is *popular*. It is popular to
> > attack people that you disagree with. It isn't popular to bounce
> > around on your butt, making a fool out of yourself every day,
> > twice a day for years on end.
>
> Oh, come now Lawson. Don't you believe in your own beliefs? If 7000 of
> you butt bouncers could eliminate droughts like the one now sucking the
> northeast dry, prevent deadly tornadoes, earthquakes, and hurricanes,
> make our homes and streets safe from crime, prevent wars, and "create
> Heaven on Earth," as the Maharishi claims, you would be called angels
> and saviors, not fools.
Non sequitur (Andrew is the master of the deliberately misleading
non sequitur). No matter what we accomplished, we'd still look
like fools bouncing around on our butts.
<snip>
> But Lawson, I suspect that even you, like the Maharishi, don't believe
> the scam. You know that 7000 people getting together every day to bounce
> on their butts will not reduce the worlds problems one iota.
Well, actually we *don't* know that. Actually there is some
reason to think perhaps it would, given the various published
studies on the effects of previous gatherings.
And you couldn't be more badly mistaken about Maharishi. He's
totally convinced it will work; that's why he's never let up
trying to make it happen.
He may be deluded, but he's not perpetrating a scam. It's
fascinating that you keep needing to say it's a scam. Why the
overkill? If the Maharishi Effect is nonexistent, delusion
explains the known facts and the public record a *lot* better
than the scam notion.
It sounds to me as though the award-winning journalist doth
protest too much--that he's not quite so certain of himself as he
purports to be.
The only
> benefit to humankind would be the humor of seeing 7000 deluded fools
> bouncing on their asses twice a day. That's why the TM movement is
> spending millions of dollars buying up real estate around the world, but
> not one dime to establish a center for 7000 Yogic Butt Bouncers/World
> Saviors.
Andrew, you're getting out of control again.
To the extent that real estate is being bought (and you can't
cite more than a couple of instances of same), it's being bought
either to use as for movement facilities, or to hold a while and
resell at a profit to fund movement programs.
And *huge* amounts of money have been spent over the years, and
continue to be spent, to try to establish groups of 7000. The
"world's tallest building" project, for instance, is intended to
house the thousands of pundits the movement hopes to attract, who
will not only practice the TM-Sidhis but also perform yagyas.
The money isn't being spent in the way *you* think it should be
spent; Maharishi isn't going about it the way you think he
should.
But what the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in
China? You actively disbelieve in the whole thing. What
validity can the way you say something you disbelieve in should
be accomplished possibly have?
How can the fact that you think something you disbelieve in
should be done differently than it's being done serve as proof of
the validity of your disbelief? You're talking pure nonsense.
You don't even know what it is you claim to disbelieve in.
And even if Maharishi *did* decide to fund a 7000 group, you
*still* would believe it was all a scam.
> So go ahead and keep offering one silly excuse after another to explain
> why it's not yet possible to assemble 7000 Yogic Fliers to save the
> world. You're keeping a lot of readers rolling on the floor.
You'd just love to believe you and your dittoheads are the only
ones laughing, Andrew.
Judy Stein
Andrew Skolnick <asko...@blockspam.mindspring.com> wrote:
> John Walkup wrote:
<snip>
> > Why not open the doors at 6AM? That would give everyone plenty of
> > time to grab a cold urine and find a mat.
>
> Grab a cold urine! I'm rolling on the floor!
For lurkers: Drinking urine, cold or otherwise, is not part of
the TM program.
<snip>
> Oh, I'm sure Lawson can figure out at least 20 dozen excuses. All that
> spilt beer makes the ground too sticky for yogic fliers to take off. The
> pressure of the photons coming from the sky makes it hard for yogic
> fliers to lift off. Existing stadiums don't have entrance doors facing
> in the right direction and it would be too expensive to relocate the
> doorways. The word "stadium" has an even number of letters, and an even
> number of letters is not propitious -- you know, excuses like that. He's
> quite good at coming up with them. Let's see, if I can recall just a few
> of them, to get 7000 yogic butt bouncers together on a regular basis you
> need the military with accurate watches, ample financial support for all
> bouncers and their families, air conditioning, and... oh yeah, no
> monsoons or insects. What a hoot!
My, what biting, pointed ridicule, Andrew.
Might I suggest it's long past time to get your scalpel
sharpened?
> Lawson's gymnastics reminds me of a poem by the great Shel Silverstein
> that tells how a pathethic nerd tries to pick up a beautiful woman at a
> bar. She politely declines his offer to take her home by saying that she
> has a big, overly protective brother. He replies that if he beat up her
> brother, could he take her home. She answers that her house is
> surrounded by a moat with alligators. He asks if he could outswim the
> alligators and then beat up her brother would she let him take her home.
> Her excuses grow increasingly absurd. Nevertheless, in Silverstein's
> story, the nerd finally catches on and asks, "you don't really want me
> to take you home, do you." Lawson, I'm afraid, will never catch on.
Oops. Andrew often has problems when he attempts to draw
parallels.
In Silverstein's story, it's not the nerd who is making the
excuses, it's the woman.
Andrew's boners with regard to parallelisms are often quite
revealing of what really underlies his scornful bravado; they
often are Freudian slips.
In the Silverstein story, obviously the excuse maker--who is the
*correct* parallel to Lawson here--has the upper hand; she's the
top dog.
Which makes Andrew, of course, the pathetic nerd.
Too bad, Andrew, it's such a great story.
Now, if it were the TM movement making the excuses Lawson has
provided, your parallel would be more on target. But it isn't;
I've never heard the movement say anything like what Lawson said.
I don't know any better than Lawson does why the movement doesn't
just fund a group of 7000 on its own. I *do* know it's not
because the movement is afraid it wouldn't work; all the
indications are to the contrary, as I outlined in another post.
The movement most definitely wants such groups and has most
likely spent at least as much money trying to persuade large
numbers of TM-Sidhis practitioners to come live in one place so
they can practice together, or to persuade governments to fund
groups, or to implement any number of other schemes, than it
would have taken just to fund a group wholly from movement funds
and be done with it.
Lawson English
>
>So for all these reasons, Andrew, we would encourage you to
>continue to ridicule us, just as you have been doing.
Note that Andrew took down his web-page making fun of me, rather than make
a minor correction?
Could it have been because I *PROUDLY* gave the URL in my sig in every
message that I sent while it was up?
Perhaps we should start calling Andrew the Mock[ing] Turtle because he gets
so green when he spews his bile at people he disagrees with.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lawson English. Squeak, snore, etc.
Check out <http://www.squeak.org>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Walkup
>
> In article <37AC8B...@spam.block.mindspring.com>,
> > > another to pack up your families, quit your jobs, and move someplace just
> > > so you can butt-bounce in a large group every day in order to save the
> > > Earth. And of course, what if your family doesn't want to move? Do you
> > > leave them or let the Earth fend for itself?
> >
> > Come off of it Lawson, your family like everybody else's family live on
> > the same planet -- the one that your guru says can be turned into Heaven
> > by a measly 7000 butt bouncers! Don't you want to save your familyies
> > from war, crime, pestilence, famine, and the mockery of skeptics?
>
> The question is what the families want to do, or want you to do.
>
> And notice that Andrew didn't address Lawson's point. Believing
> and wanting and hoping is one thing; completely disrupting your
> and your family's lives on that basis is quite another.
Yeah, that would require true belief in your ability to help save the
world. But they don't have it.
It boils down to this: If the TM'ers really believed that they could
save the world, and they don't bother to because of the inconveniences
that would impose on their families, then they are astonishingly
selfish people. When countries go to war, hundreds of thousands
of men disrupt their families' lives to go fight. Many die, and most
will not see their families again for periods up to four or five years.
Many come back to find their wives have left them. Many will have
children they will never get to see. But they still do it.
Consider the U-Boat crewmen in WWII. This was an extremely dangerous
job (less than half survived), and each time a U-Boat went into battle
it risked the lives of its crewmen. Yet these men wanted to
engage the enemy. They felt that risking their lives was a small
sacrifice to pay for what they perceived as the better good. But
TMers can't be bothered to leave their families for two weeks to
save the world?!?!
--
John Walkup
John Walkup
>
> In article <37AE92...@telepath.com>,
> John Walkup <cue...@telepath.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> > Consider this: One of Rush Limbaugh's fans wanted a free subscription
> > to Rush's newsletter, but Rush said that he would have to raise the
> > money himself, so he advised the listener to hold a bake sale.
> > I don't remember how many of Rush's fans showed up to buy baked goods
> > and help the listener get a subscription to the newsletter, but it was
> > WAY over 7000. (I think the number was closer to 30,000, and they
> > came from all over the country, including Canada.)
> >
> > But TM cannot get 7000 together to save the world. LOL!
> >
> > BTW, I only offered Rush Limbaugh's show as an EXAMPLE. Let's not delve
> > into Rush's show, okay?
>
> Well, we *could* at least consider Limbaugh's reputation for
> honesty and accuracy in terms of how seriously we should take
> this report even as an example.
The local police were the ones that made the crowd estimates.
> Not to mention the likelihood on its face of 30,000 people
> showing up for a bake sale. One would assume if that were the
> case, there would be plenty of documentation of this
> extraordinary happening in the local newspapers, if not the
> national media. Was there?
Yes. The event really did happen.
> But let's pretend we have no reason to doubt the account.
>
> Let's just note how very different the *situations* are: In the
> case of the bake sale, people showing up for a one-time event, at
> an hour of their choice, staying for a few hours (or perhaps
> overnight), with or without their families, then returning home
> again; versus, in the case of the TM 7000 group, giving up their
> homes and jobs, moving permanently to the site in question, with
> their families (if they haven't deserted them for the purpose),
> then showing up twice a day seven days a week at specific times
> for an indefinite period of some years at the least.
Consider another difference in the situations. The people showing
up for the bake sale were there just for the Hell of it. TMers
can't meet en masse to save the world.
--
John Walkup The Cue Gallery (http://www.cuegallery.com)
Authorized Dealer: Verl Horn Cues Russ Espiritu Custom Cues
John Walkup
>
> In article <37AF98...@telepath.com>,
> John Walkup <cue...@telepath.com> wrote:
>
> > Lawson English wrote:
> <snip>
> > > Not true. There IS one published, peer-reviewed study on the
> > > local effects of butt-bouncing on the EEG of a non-meditator.
> >
> > Everytime I think of what this experiment would have looked like,
> > I just can't stop from laughing.
> >
> > "Okay, the EEG machine is hooked up. All right, meditators,
> > bounce those butts!'"
> >
> > "Boing, boing, boing, boing..."
> >
> > "Look, the EEG machine is reacting! Let's publish the results in the
> > magazine Mat and Butt!"
>
> Are you interested in how the study was *actually* conducted, or
> do you prefer to revel in your humorous but utterly inaccurate
> fantasy?
Well, did the TMers bounce on their butts? Did the researchers
see if the bouncing affected the output of an EEG machine? If so,
my description pretty much sums it up.
--
John Walkup
Dene Bebbington
>In article <37ADBE...@spam.block.mindspring.com>,
>Andrew Skolnick <asko...@spam.block.mindspring.com> wrote:
><snip>
>> But Lawson insists getting 7000 people together on a regular basis is
>> "implausible" for any group other than the military!
>
>No, he didn't. Andrew's lying *again*.
>
>Here's what Lawson said:
>
> the logistics and financing required to get 7,000 butt-bouncers
> together on a twice-daily, *permanent* basis isn't trivial.
>
>"Isn't *trivial*" is what Lawson said. Quite a difference from
>"is implausible."
Actually, this is what Lawson actually said:
"Or, you can attempt some combination of the above. Regardless, the
logistics and financing required to get 7,000 butt-bouncers together on
a twice-daily, *permanent* basis isn't trivial. Only the military
manages to get that many people together on a daily basis, and getting
the military to train 7,000 butt-bouncers doesn't seem plausible at this
point."
Given the whole context of what Lawson said about the military I think
Andrew's comment was fair, certainly the accusation that Andrew is lying
is a bit rich from someone who didn't bother to show what Lawson said in
context.
>What Lawson said was entirely reasonable, and Andrew couldn't see
>any way to mock it and turn it into an indictment of TMers.
Actually what Lawson said was wrong because other organisations do get
several thousand people together on a regular basis.
>So what does Andrew do? Why, he just makes something up that he
>*can* mock and puts it in Lawson's mouth.
Nope, Lawson said only the military can get 7000 people together on a
daily basis, implying that it is implausible that anyone else could.
>Andrew chronically, deliberately, and maliciously misquotes
>TMers. No conscience. No integrity. If the reality doesn't
>suit his agenda, he creates one that does, without even a second
>thought.
Note that while railing against Andrew, Judy didn't quote the whole of
the relevant paragraph written by Lawson.
>Andrew is an award-winning journalist, you know. Wonder how many
>of his awards were won for articles in which he deliberately and
>maliciously misquoted those he interviewed?
>
><snip>
>> The excuses of TM apologists are so transparent. And oh soooooo
>> funny!
>
>What is oh sooooo funny--or would be if Andrew weren't such a
>pathetic fool--is the transparency of his lies.
>
>How sad to be so out of tune with the world as it is. How sad to
>feel so constantly behind the eight-ball that the only way you
>can discuss an area of disagreement is to lie to prop up your
>totally inadequate case.
Yet Andrew didn't lie, his comment was a fair reading of what Lawson
said - you know, the part you didn't quote.
--
Dene Bebbington http://www.bebbo.demon.co.uk
"Beside the braes of dawn. One clear new morning. Down where the lilies
stood in bloom. I knew that I was just a stranger in this world. A wind
just passing through." - Calum & Rory Macdonald (Runrig)
Dene Bebbington
>In article <1j3x+OAk$Ir3...@bebbo.demon.co.uk>,
>Dene Bebbington <de...@bebbo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Andrew Skolnick <asko...@mindspring.com> writes:
>> >Dene Bebbington wrote:
><snip>
>> >> In fact, the movement did apparently get together around 7000 butt
>> >> hoppers between Dec 83 and Jan 84 at MIU.
>> >
>> >I know. They did that a couple of other times too. That's why I said
>> >"established" as opposed to staging a gathering.
>>
>> Yeah, I was pointing out that they have managed to get together 7000
>> butt hoppers, in contrast to some of Lawson's previous excuses.
>
>You missed Andrew's point, Dene. These were *temporary* groups,
>not permanent ones.
Er, yes, that's why I said between Dec 83 and Jan 84.
> Participants had only to arrange for a
>couple weeks' time off their jobs and family responsibilities.
>Lawson's been talking about the problems of establishing a
>permanent group.
Lawson had also been talking about how difficult it supposedly is in
terms of space to get 7000 hoppers together, I was merely pointing out
that it had been done. I wasn't commenting on the other logistics.
>> >> It has been claimed that the end of the cold war was the result of
>> >> groups doing butt hopping.
>> >
>> >Hmmm. Thousands of species of animals and plants became extinct around
>> >that time too. The incarceration rate in the U.S. skyrocketed. Many
>> >other bad things also increased. TM pseudoscientists like to claim
>> >responsibility for all good events while denying responsibility for all
>> >bad events. They're just a bunch of deluded fools going around with
>> >paint buckets and brushes painting bullseyes around the arrows they
>> >shoot.
>>
>> Indeed. It suits them well to have the mass hopping for short periods of
>> time, so any coincidental positive world events can be attributed to it.
>
>I guess you missed Lawson's response, which completely demolishes
>Andrew's lie: Maharishi has *insisted* that all negative events
>are our responsibility as well as the positive events.
>
>And by the way, the goals of the large temporary gatherings have
>been announced in advance, quite specifically. They wouldn't do
>that if they were just planning to take advantage of coincidental
>positive world events.
I don't see what the advance announcement has got to do with it.
[...]
John Walkup
> >Andrew Skolnick <asko...@spam.block.mindspring.com> wrote:
> ><snip>
> >> But Lawson insists getting 7000 people together on a regular basis is
> >> "implausible" for any group other than the military!
> >
> >No, he didn't. Andrew's lying *again*.
> >
> >Here's what Lawson said:
> >
> > the logistics and financing required to get 7,000 butt-bouncers
> > together on a twice-daily, *permanent* basis isn't trivial.
> >
> >"Isn't *trivial*" is what Lawson said. Quite a difference from
> >"is implausible."
>
> Actually, this is what Lawson actually said:
>
> "Or, you can attempt some combination of the above. Regardless, the
> logistics and financing required to get 7,000 butt-bouncers together on
> a twice-daily, *permanent* basis isn't trivial. Only the military
> manages to get that many people together on a daily basis, and getting
> the military to train 7,000 butt-bouncers doesn't seem plausible at this
> point."
I am glad you posted this, because I could have sworn that Lawson did
say
something about the military in his post. Andrew's comments seem
accurate. I think Judy slandered Andrew more than she claims he
slandered Lawson.
Regardless, the statement "Only the military
manages to get that many people together on a daily basis..."
is simply false and can be refuted rather easily. In fact,
it has been. How this got by them I have no idea.
--
John Walkup
Andrew Skolnick
>
> Judy Stein <jst...@panix.com> said:
>
> >
> >So for all these reasons, Andrew, we would encourage you to
> >continue to ridicule us, just as you have been doing.
>
> Note that Andrew took down his web-page making fun of me, rather than make
> a minor correction?
>
> Could it have been because I *PROUDLY* gave the URL in my sig in every
> message that I sent while it was up?
>
> Perhaps we should start calling Andrew the Mock[ing] Turtle because he gets
> so green when he spews his bile at people he disagrees with.
Lawson, you mindless goose, I removed that page not after you started
boasting about it in your sig, but after you pointed out my error. I had
thought you were defending the Maharishi's right to redefine words to
his liking (I misread "yoga" for "Yogi" in one of your posts). I
admitted my error in a post and removed the page. I removed it because
it made no sense since you were not talking about the Yogi.
Sorry if you feel left out by not having a page of your own on the
Junkyard Dog Web site. But face, it, you're just not twisted and
mean-spirited enough to rate a page. Your silly apologetics don't quite
clear the bar for malicious rants.
I think you should be more proud of this. But true to form, Dormouse,
you're always getting things backwards.
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Andrew Skolnick
>
> In article <37ADBE...@spam.block.mindspring.com>,
> Andrew Skolnick <asko...@spam.block.mindspring.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> > But Lawson insists getting 7000 people together on a regular basis is
> > "implausible" for any group other than the military!
>
> No, he didn't. Andrew's lying *again*.
> Here's what Lawson said:
>
> the logistics and financing required to get 7,000 butt-bouncers
> together on a twice-daily, *permanent* basis isn't trivial.
>
> "Isn't *trivial*" is what Lawson said. Quite a difference from
> "is implausible."
As readers can see for themselves, Judy is again resorting to the big
lie. To do so, she deleted the sentence that followed in which Lawson
said only the military could get 7000 yogic hoppers together on a daily
basis and that getting the military to do this does not seem plausible.
> What Lawson said was entirely reasonable, and Andrew couldn't see
> any way to mock it and turn it into an indictment of TMers.
>
> So what does Andrew do? Why, he just makes something up that he
> *can* mock and puts it in Lawson's mouth.
> Andrew chronically, deliberately, and maliciously misquotes
> TMers. No conscience. No integrity. If the reality doesn't
> suit his agenda, he creates one that does, without even a second
> thought.
As I was preparing to answer this deceitful attack, I saw Dene
Bebbington already has done so very effectively. It so thoroughly rubs
Judy's face in her lie, I will add Dene's post to the Junkyard Dog Web
site. When it goes up, it will have the URL
http://www.aaskolnick.com/junkyarddog/dene.htm
> Andrew chronically, deliberately, and maliciously misquotes
> TMers. No conscience. No integrity. If the reality doesn't
> suit his agenda, he creates one that does, without even a second
> thought.
> Andrew is an award-winning journalist, you know. Wonder how many
> of his awards were won for articles in which he deliberately and
> maliciously misquoted those he interviewed?
>
> <snip>
> > The excuses of TM apologists are so transparent. And oh soooooo
> > funny!
>
> What is oh sooooo funny--or would be if Andrew weren't such a
> pathetic fool--is the transparency of his lies.
>
> How sad to be so out of tune with the world as it is. How sad to
> feel so constantly behind the eight-ball that the only way you
> can discuss an area of disagreement is to lie to prop up your
> totally inadequate case.
Readers should see Dene's post for proof of this sig:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Judy Stein * The Liar King * jst...@fibs.r.us.com +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--Andrew Skolnick
http://nasw.org/users/ASkolnick
Andrew Skolnick
> > >Andrew Skolnick <asko...@spam.block.mindspring.com> wrote:
> > ><snip>
> > >> But Lawson insists getting 7000 people together on a regular basis is
> > >> "implausible" for any group other than the military!
> > >
> > >No, he didn't. Andrew's lying *again*.
> > >
> > >Here's what Lawson said:
> > >
> > > the logistics and financing required to get 7,000 butt-bouncers
> > > together on a twice-daily, *permanent* basis isn't trivial.
> > >
> > >"Isn't *trivial*" is what Lawson said. Quite a difference from
> > >"is implausible."
> >
> >
> > logistics and financing required to get 7,000 butt-bouncers together on
> > manages to get that many people together on a daily basis, and getting
> > the military to train 7,000 butt-bouncers doesn't seem plausible at this
> > point."
>
> I am glad you posted this, because I could have sworn that Lawson did
> say
> something about the military in his post.
One didn't have to look hard for it. It was quoted in my post. Judy
deliberately snipped out the part about the military from the paragraph
she quoted.
> Andrew's comments seem
> accurate. I think Judy slandered Andrew more than she claims he
> slandered Lawson.
>
John, a minor correction: Judy made her defamatory comments in writing.
That makes it libel, not slander.
> Regardless, the statement "Only the military
> manages to get that many people together on a daily basis..."
> is simply false and can be refuted rather easily. In fact,
> it has been. How this got by them I have no idea.
How this got by whom?
> --
> John Walkup
Lawson English
>>WAAAY back when (late '60's), MMY, an MIU physicist named Lawrence
>Domash,
>>and a Cambridge physicist named Brain Josephsen were participating in
>
>I presume you mean Brian Josephson, the Nobel-winning physicist, the guy
>who now babbles about telepathy and telekinesis?
>
>>various "Science of Creative Intelligence" symposia sponsored by the TM
>>organization.
>>
>>MMY referred to a Sanskrit concept called "ahimsa" or "non-violence" and
>>claimed that it had been misinterpreted. Ahimsa didn't refer to an
attitude
>>that an enlightened person took, but rather to a field-effect, as
>>"documented" in the Sanskrit phrase that he translates as "in the
vicinity
>>of Yoga, violent tendencies are eliminated."
>
>It's good to see that you put "documented" in quotes. That's a pretty soft
>justification.
No worse than a lot of other things that have been validated.
>
>>
>>Domash suggested that this could be an example of a well-known
>phenomenon
>>in physics and chemistry where a small percentage of a substance, having
>>changed state, would influence the rest of the substance and make it
>easier
>>to change (e.g. ice crystals forming).
>
>Ah. A wonderful example of a bad analogy -- one made with no reasonable
>correspondence to the phenomenon. This isn't a good justification either.
MMMMMmmm...
If consciousness is field-like in some sense, and has field-ish qualities
in the appropriate context, than one wouldn't be too surprised if the
mathematics that applies to fields turns out to apply to consciousness (in
the right context).
>
>>Josephson took the anlogy further
>>and made reference to his own work in QM and suggested that perhaps only
>1%
>>of a population practicing TM might have a measurable effect on the rest
>of
>>the population.
>
>In other words, he plucked "1%" out of his butt. The number is
meaningless,
>and has no quantitative foundation.
See above. An assumption was made that consciousness has field-like
qualities that might be measured.
>
>>
>>When TM became a fad in the early 70's, several US cities reached the "1%
>>level" practicing TM within a few months and TM researchers claimed that
>>the year that the cities reached 1% practicing TM, the crime rate dropped
>>while in matched control cities where the TM-level was considerably less
>>than 1%, the crime didn't drop.
>>
>>Later on, the TM organization attempted to teach 1% of Rhode Island to
>>meditate in only a few months in order to demonstate the 1% effect on a
>>state-wide level, but they failed. However, since Rhode Island is such a
>>small state, most of the TM teachers would meet together every day and
>>practice their newly learned Yogic Flying technique.
>>
>>Domash and MMY suggested that the synergistic effect of having a small
>>group of people do yogic flying together would be the same as having 1%
of
>>the population doing TM, so TM researchers went ahead and performed their
>>little statistical analysis and found the 1% effect occuring in Rhode
>>Island whenever the Yogic FLying group got larger than about the
>>square-root of 1% of Rhode Island's population.
>>
>>
>>7,000, by the way, was approximately the square-root of 1% of the world's
>>population at the time the effect was first observed by TM researchers,
so
>>they predicted that if 7,000+ Yogic Flyers were to hop around together,
it
>>would have a measurable effect on the rest of the world.
>>
>>They got about that many people togehter for 2 weeks during Christmas of
>>'83, I believe, and claimed that the predicted effect occured.
>
>You do realize that this is godawful bad 'science', don't you?
In and of itself? Sure. However, all bleeding-edge science is godawful bad
science, so what is your point?
>
>The idea that a few meditators could have global effects has no reasonable
>historical antecedent. It is not an idea that arose from a reliable
foundation
>of prior scientific research. It's source seems to be from a questionable
>interpretation of an old semi-religious text.
So? Is this supposed to prove anything? This is sorta a universal appeal to
authority: 'since no "reliable foundation of prior scientific research"
predicts it, it can't possibly be true.'
Fact is, a LOT of things now accepted as scientific fact were not supported
by mainstream science when they were first investigated.
>
>The justification by analogy is really, really bad. Why not make the
analogy
>with nuclear fission and say that if enough meditators get close enough
>together, their brains will explode in a chain reaction? It's bogus either
>way.
>
There's no-one making the clame that meditation leads to anything remotely
like that. MMY's assertion logically follows from his interpretation of the
Vedic texts. Whether or not his interpretation has any validity in the real
world is another question entirely.
>The numbers are ad hoc guesses. There was no reason to say 1%, and clearly
>the 'research' is directed at supporting that meaningless number.
In many systems, ~1% of the system going through a transition turns out to
be a good first-order approximation of what is required to have an effect
on the entire system. Why not pluck it out of the air as a starting point?
The claim
>that only the square root of 1% of the population need to be yogic flyers
>is laughable -- somebody obviously thought they needed to toss a "square
>root"
>in there to make it sound scientific. And how could you determine that
>that fraction of a population was needed from ONE sample, the RI study?
Er, interactive effects of a group of n elements in a system often lead to
n^2 effects. The presumption that consciousness has field-like qualities in
certain circumstances leads quite logically to this figure.
>
>There is still no plausible mechanism given. Why should I believe one
>word of this crap when nobody can even speculate about how it would
>work?
>
Why not? If the effect was ever observed (note "if"), then who CARES if
there was no "reliable foundation of prior scientific research" that
predicted it?
Who predicted QM from Newtonian mechanics?
Who predicted quinine from Western medical theory?
I mean, really.
Science doesn't always plod along.
Punctuated evolution seems to occur.