Steampunk martians
Frogwatch
what they did in Well's book? I say not very advanced technically.
Consider what we know about the martians, about the size of a bear
with tentacles with skin resembling wet leather. Mars has low surface
gravity and thin atmosphere, this was known even in Well's time. We
know this would make development of aircraft difficult for them. They
seem to have no notion of micro-biology so we know they have never
visited earth before and probably not visited other places in the
Solar System.
So, how advanced would they have to be to develop large gun launched
Mars to Earth projectiles? We can probably assume rocket assisted
projectiles and that the gun is a light gas gun so the acceleration is
not too high but this is a stretch. Worse, is the impact with earth.
How to alleviate that?
Laser power source? Some sorta chemically pumped laser maybe. Some
people say that lasers are more obvious than radio communications so i
can see it being developed by a lower tech civilization.
Jack Linthicum
May I suggest that anyone whose method of transportation is a walking
device and that walking device is equipped with both a poisonous gas
system and a heat ray has some experience in war. The questions arise
over their power system, if solar they would get much more from being
closer to the sun, a nuclear system could provide enough for the
housekeeping functions, batteries improve almost daily, the Martians
sound like they had a long lead time on that area.
Also, is the "gun" necessarily a high explosive device? I have seen
compressed air and gas powered "guns" for experiments involving
repeatable velocities. The "cloud" seen from earth could have been the
gas escaping after providing thrust and blowing the Martian soil or
sand into a cloud. The escape velocity from Mars is about half of
Earths, 5 kps vs. 11.2 kps, a nice long acceleration with side booster
gas jets would provide the velocity.
Of course if the cylinders were really 90 feet in diameter that is a
different matter but "each cylinder held only five Martians, three or
four bipedal martian creatures which served as provisions, five semi-
disassembled Tripods, two semi-disassembled Handling Machines, and the
materials to build one Flying Machine. The diameter of each cylinder
is approximately thirty yards."
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/N/nuclear_power_for_spacecraft.html
Malcom "Mal" Reynolds
<68a2789a-fb3d-4036-aae4-a27822cfaa49@r1
0g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
Jack Linthicum
<jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Also, is the "gun" necessarily a high explosive device? I have seen
> compressed air and gas powered "guns" for experiments involving
> repeatable velocities. The "cloud" seen from earth could have been the
> gas escaping after providing thrust and blowing the Martian soil or
> sand into a cloud. The escape velocity from Mars is about half of
> Earths, 5 kps vs. 11.2 kps, a nice long acceleration with side booster
> gas jets would provide the velocity.
Which brings up the issue of how would
they return to mars?
Jack Linthicum
bug...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> In article
> <68a2789a-fb3d-4036-aae4-a27822cfaa49@r1
> 0g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> Jack Linthicum
>
> > Also, is the "gun" necessarily a high explosive device? I have seen
> > compressed air and gas powered "guns" for experiments involving
> > repeatable velocities. The "cloud" seen from earth could have been the
> > gas escaping after providing thrust and blowing the Martian soil or
> > sand into a cloud. The escape velocity from Mars is about half of
> > Earths, 5 kps vs. 11.2 kps, a nice long acceleration with side booster
> > gas jets would provide the velocity.
>
> Which brings up the issue of how would
> they return to mars?
Why would they? The old homestead was dying, which is why they came
down in the first place. There are hundreds of old sci fi stories
about how homo sap began on Mars. In reality there are a whole set of
orbits that would either get them back slowly or fairly quickly. They
would use their new found slave and food supply (The young females are
delicious).
Keith Willshaw
"Malcom "Mal" Reynolds" <atlas-...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:atlas-bugged-A152...@aries.ka.weretis.net...
This is an invasion fleet, returning isn't part of the plan.
Keith
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_gas_gun
>
> http://waroftheworlds.wikia.com/wiki/Cylinder
Another possible Martian source of power: hydrogen peroxide.
Dennis
> Another possible Martian source of power: hydrogen peroxide.
A rather more likely one: deus ex machina. Wells didn't think out
his technology as well as Jules Verne did.
Dennis
Jack Linthicum
Julie baby started with the technology, those autonomous diving suits
were based on an existing 1860s suit. Welles wrote stories about his
own fantasies. If you read The World Set Free, The War in the Air and
the Land Ironclads, it is more about a story than expositing
technology.
Malcom "Mal" Reynolds
<15202107-e42d-4f92-8a75-06cdacfab9a6@x4
2g2000vba.googlegroups.com>,
Jack Linthicum
<jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
If the old homestead was dying, how
would they save/preserve/protect the
"civilians"?
Nice useful orbits are nice, but
launching safe ships from earth at that
time was beyond Earth technology and I'd
have to guess that if it were available
on Mars, they might not have needed to
invade in the first place.
--
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feugiat. Vivamus porta lobortis
ultricies. Nulla adipiscing tellus a
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dolor. Nullam nisi erat, aliquet
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augue dui, in mattis urna. In pretium
metus eu diam blandit accumsan. Ut eu
lorem sed odio porttitor blandit.
Jack Linthicum
bug...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> In article
Mars is dead, Welles theory was that it was dying in 1902 or so. Why
go back? All but a few of those who came to the U.S. and other "open"
land in the 19th Century went back. Build that long tube using Earth
gas for the power and an elliptical orbit.
dott.Piergiorgio
> How advanced would the Martians in War of the Worlds have to be to do
> what they did in Well's book? I say not very advanced technically.
> Consider what we know about the martians, about the size of a bear
> with tentacles with skin resembling wet leather. Mars has low surface
> gravity and thin atmosphere,
<snip>
meh, Personally I guess that the mix of low gravity, thin atmosphere and
lack of O2 should have led hypothetical martians to keep with gun
technology instead of switching to rocket & guided missile technology
when they reach the appropriate level of technology development, but
OTOH the lack of O2 will have precluded the most fundamental enabling
technology, the Fire itself....
Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
dott.Piergiorgio
> Nice useful orbits are nice, but
> launching safe ships from earth at that
> time was beyond Earth technology and I'd
> have to guess that if it were available
> on Mars, they might not have needed to
> invade in the first place.
let's call that the Wells's story is about a "preemptive war" (c'mon,
now there are more working & running Terran hardware on Mars than
everyhere else on Solar System, and now the invasion^W landing is slated
for the 2030s.....) and the story's background fit nicely; side note, I
suspect that outside here they consider us as a sort of "dangerous &
warlike Klingons" ;) and this is why we haven't contacted none outside;
a sort of embargo ;) )
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. piergiorgio.
Jack Linthicum
There were "the materials for a flying machine" in the cargo of each
cylinder.
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/mars_plane_020612-1.html
Photo-voltaic dates back to the 1880s, some Mars Edison could take the
feeble solar power and create a source. It is the designated power
source for any Mars colony.
Radio isotope generation of power has many aspects and would offer
the Martian Edison a variety of ideas and applications.
Frogwatch
wrote:
> On Apr 23, 10:19 am, "dott.Piergiorgio"
>
>
>
> <dott.PiergiorgioNI...@KAIGUN.fastwebnet.it> wrote:
> > Frogwatch ha scritto:
>
> > > How advanced would the Martians in War of the Worlds have to be to do
> > > what they did in Well's book? I say not very advanced technically.
> > > Consider what we know about the martians, about the size of a bear
> > > with tentacles with skin resembling wet leather. Mars has low surface
> > > gravity and thin atmosphere,
>
> > <snip>
>
> > meh, Personally I guess that the mix of low gravity, thin atmosphere and
> > lack of O2 should have led hypothetical martians to keep with gun
> > technology instead of switching to rocket & guided missile technology
> > when they reach the appropriate level of technology development, but
> > OTOH the lack of O2 will have precluded the most fundamental enabling
> > technology, the Fire itself....
>
> > Best regards from Italy,
> > dott. Piergiorgio.
>
> There were "the materials for a flying machine" in the cargo of each
> cylinder.
>
>
> Photo-voltaic dates back to the 1880s, some Mars Edison could take the
> feeble solar power and create a source. It is the designated power
> source for any Mars colony.
>
> Radio isotope generation of power has many aspects and would offer
> the Martian Edison a variety of ideas and applications.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_battery
>
> http://www.rexresearch.com/nucell/nucell.htm
I have not re-read the book but I vaguely remember something about
"The Martians learning to fly". I'll allow it as Wells did say it but
I think airplanes would be difficult on Mars considering the low
density of their air and the Martians mass is greater than ours.
I did re-read "Journey to the Center of the Earth" by Verne recently
and he had them using a "Rhumkorf Apparatus" for lighting, some sort
of electric rig but he did not seem familiar with how long such a
device could produce light.
Jack Linthicum
Read my cite
Dennis
> let's call that the Wells's story is about a "preemptive war" (c'mon,
> now there are more working & running Terran hardware on Mars than
> everyhere else on Solar System, and now the invasion^W landing is slated
> for the 2030s.....) and the story's background fit nicely; side note, I
> suspect that outside here they consider us as a sort of "dangerous &
> warlike Klingons" ;) and this is why we haven't contacted none outside;
> a sort of embargo ;) )
You're probably right. "Let them either kill themselves off or
become truly civilized before we contact them!"
However, contact by radio can easily be inadvertent.
Dennis
tankfixer
@r10g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, jackli...@earthlink.net says...
> May I suggest that anyone whose method of transportation is a walking
> device and that walking device is equipped with both a poisonous gas
> system and a heat ray has some experience in war.
>
Or it's a farming implement
Peter Stickney
Flying Martians, Threat or Menace?
Go track down a copy of Welles's short story "The Crystal Egg"
It presents a pre WOTW look at the Martians in their native habitat.
--
Pete Stickney
Failure is not an option
It comes bundled with the system
Keith Willshaw
"Peter Stickney" <p_sti...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:cp1da7-...@Heimdall.local.net...
Nice catch, I hadn't read that one. Found it online at
http://www.online-literature.com/wellshg/2878/
Keith
Jack Linthicum
<keithnos...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Peter Stickney" <p_stick...@verizon.net> wrote in message
Thanks, a web cam, Martian style
Joe Osman
The RPG people have been having fun with the Victorian British
conquest of Mars. See the Transactions of the Royal Martian
Geographical Society for a start.
Joe
Keith Willshaw
"Joe Osman" <Joseph...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:14064bb0-6200-46a3...@r1g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
I rather liked the stories based around a revolution against
the imperial Russians, Tsar Wars :)
Keith
dott.Piergiorgio
How is now the steampunk RPG scene ? I fear I'm really lagging back,
having around only the rulebook of Space 1889 (with "some" sheets of
house rules related, surprisingly ;) to "corrections" the Naval rules :D )
j...@cix.compulink.co.uk
dott.Pierg...@KAIGUN.fastwebnet.it (dott.Piergiorgio) wrote:
> How is now the steampunk RPG scene ? I fear I'm really lagging back,
> having around only the rulebook of Space 1889 (with "some" sheets of
> house rules related, surprisingly ;) to "corrections" the Naval rules
> :D )
Fairly quiet. The recent outbreak of steampunk as a fashion and arts
style has had little effect on the RPG world, which tends to scorn
anything that might be mistaken for being fashionable. People still play
steampunk games from time to time - 1889, GURPS or CoC seem to be the
usual game systems - but nothing particularly new seems to be happening.
The 1930s-set "dieselpunk" of _Rocketship Empires_, Weird World War II
settings such as _The Day After Ragnarok_, or twisted post-post Cyberpunk
games seem to be more where it's at currently.
--
John Dallman, j...@cix.co.uk, HTML mail is treated as probable spam.
William Black
> Fairly quiet. The recent outbreak of steampunk as a fashion and arts
> style has had little effect on the RPG world, which tends to scorn
> anything that might be mistaken for being fashionable.
And steampunk is VERY fashionable at the moment.
The RPG lot, indeed most wargamers, think fashion is what hackers wear
in William Gibson books...
--
William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
Andrew Robert Breen
William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>j...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>
>> Fairly quiet. The recent outbreak of steampunk as a fashion and arts
>> style has had little effect on the RPG world, which tends to scorn
>> anything that might be mistaken for being fashionable.
>
>And steampunk is VERY fashionable at the moment.
>
>The RPG lot, indeed most wargamers, think fashion is what hackers wear
>in William Gibson books...
Oh by dose.
Thank you William - inhaling that tea //hurt//, but the laugh was worth
it.
--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)
dott.Piergiorgio
>> How is now the steampunk RPG scene ? I fear I'm really lagging back,
>> having around only the rulebook of Space 1889 (with "some" sheets of
>> house rules related, surprisingly ;) to "corrections" the Naval rules
>> :D )
>
> Fairly quiet. The recent outbreak of steampunk as a fashion and arts
> style has had little effect on the RPG world, which tends to scorn
> anything that might be mistaken for being fashionable. People still play
> steampunk games from time to time - 1889, GURPS or CoC seem to be the
> usual game systems - but nothing particularly new seems to be happening.
>
> The 1930s-set "dieselpunk" of _Rocketship Empires_, Weird World War II
> settings such as _The Day After Ragnarok_, or twisted post-post Cyberpunk
> games seem to be more where it's at currently.
and aside the swashbuckling 7th seas, there's nothing whose can called
"sailpunk", notwhistanding the richness of inspirational sources from
the two revolutionary wars and the great events of the Napoleonic era
incl. the War of 1812; I notice also that on paper are available nifty
and *original* places for live sailpunk RPG'ing but I fear that RN and
USN will really frown at the idea of a bunch of live role-players
fooling aboard HMS Victory and USS Constitution respectively... ;)
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
William Black
> In article <hr1v85$gcv$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> j...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>>
>>> Fairly quiet. The recent outbreak of steampunk as a fashion and arts
>>> style has had little effect on the RPG world, which tends to scorn
>>> anything that might be mistaken for being fashionable.
>> And steampunk is VERY fashionable at the moment.
>>
>> The RPG lot, indeed most wargamers, think fashion is what hackers wear
>> in William Gibson books...
>
> Oh by dose.
>
> Thank you William - inhaling that tea //hurt//, but the laugh was worth
> it.
>
It's the Goth spring weekend in Whitby this weekend.
We got Steampunks oozing out of the skirting boards here...
Mind you, we get dressed up in expensive black clothes at Halloween and
go and walk about there.
Halloween in Whitby is something else...
j...@cix.compulink.co.uk
dott.Pierg...@KAIGUN.fastwebnet.it (dott.Piergiorgio) wrote:
> and aside the swashbuckling 7th seas, there's nothing whose can
> called "sailpunk", notwhistanding the richness of inspirational
> sources from the two revolutionary wars and the great events of the
> Napoleonic era incl. the War of 1812 ...
I've tried doing this, and there is one serious sourcebook for the
period: _GURPS Age of Napoleon_. The problem, however, is command
hierarchy. Role-players tend to object to having their fellow players,
or the GM, be able to tell them what to do.
I play in a WWII special-ops campaign; I'm the sole enlisted-man PC, all
the others being officers or attached civilians. If the CO were to
control matters in a realistic manner, even for a very informal
special-ops group, he'd spoil the game for the players, who are an
anarchic bunch. So he doesn't, and comes over as a hesitant and
ineffective officer. It does teach you a thing or two about the way
command - like being a minister or religion, or a commercial manager -
has a major element of showbusiness about it.
> I notice also that on paper are available nifty and *original* places
> for live sailpunk RPG'ing but I fear that RN and USN will really frown
> at the idea of a bunch of live role-players fooling aboard HMS Victory
> and USS Constitution respectively... ;)
You call it "re-enactment", and ask how much to hire the place for the
weekend. Victory, at least, can be hired for dinners and the like.
However, I suspect that the rate for the weekend will be unaffordable.
dott.Piergiorgio
> j...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>
>> Fairly quiet. The recent outbreak of steampunk as a fashion and arts
>> style has had little effect on the RPG world, which tends to scorn
>> anything that might be mistaken for being fashionable.
>
> And steampunk is VERY fashionable at the moment.
OK later I'll give a look at the DL count of 1880s and 1890s fashion &
dress catalogues on the inet arkive....
dott.Piergiorgio
> In article <Lv%An.165331$813....@tornado.fastwebnet.it>,
> dott.Pierg...@KAIGUN.fastwebnet.it (dott.Piergiorgio) wrote:
>
>> and aside the swashbuckling 7th seas, there's nothing whose can
>> called "sailpunk", notwhistanding the richness of inspirational
>> sources from the two revolutionary wars and the great events of the
>> Napoleonic era incl. the War of 1812 ...
>
> I've tried doing this, and there is one serious sourcebook for the
> period: _GURPS Age of Napoleon_. The problem, however, is command
> hierarchy. Role-players tend to object to having their fellow players,
> or the GM, be able to tell them what to do.
so ?
Put the party on a sailing 5th or 6th rate frigate or an unrated
sloop/brig on overseas cruising patrol and problem solved.... (aside
that Admirals and colonial governors are excellent means for introducing
the next adventure....)
reading how in the first chapter(s) Hornblower and Aubrey are sent to
their next adventure gives the best scenario-introduction hints ;)
> I play in a WWII special-ops campaign; I'm the sole enlisted-man PC, all
> the others being officers or attached civilians. If the CO were to
> control matters in a realistic manner, even for a very informal
> special-ops group, he'd spoil the game for the players, who are an
> anarchic bunch. So he doesn't, and comes over as a hesitant and
> ineffective officer. It does teach you a thing or two about the way
> command - like being a minister or religion, or a commercial manager -
> has a major element of showbusiness about it.
meh... there's transcripts of the session or like available ?
On the original point, WWII spec ops and XVIIIth and early XIXth C sail
man'o war have very different command & control means, because that
between the two periods came a certain bloke called Marconi.....
>> I notice also that on paper are available nifty and *original* places
>> for live sailpunk RPG'ing but I fear that RN and USN will really frown
>> at the idea of a bunch of live role-players fooling aboard HMS Victory
>> and USS Constitution respectively... ;)
>
> You call it "re-enactment", and ask how much to hire the place for the
> weekend. Victory, at least, can be hired for dinners and the like.
> However, I suspect that the rate for the weekend will be unaffordable.
Not only the rental rate, (after all, it's a First Rate ;) ) but the
stunt can be fired only once, I fear:
----- vIGNETTE BELOW ------
FROM: CO HMS VICTORY, First Rate, HM Dockyard, PORTSMOUTH
TO: Their Lordship, WHITEHALL
object: "re-enactors" hiring last weekend
ref: order USTAORDER of xx/xx/20xx
Your Lordship,
I have the pleasure of reporting that re. your USTAORDER ultimo, I have
fully complied with your order of providing support of the "re-enactor"
group, but I regret to report that this re-enactor group seems to be
rather... let's say, eccentric.
[insert description of blatant differences between behavior of
re-enactors and live role-players from the point of view of an aging,
nose-up, end-of-career RN Capt.]
So, after all these point described above, I respectfully suggest that a
much more carefully screening procedure of re-enactor group's
application for the hiring program of my Command should be at least
seriously considered by Their Lordship.
respectfully,
Sir James High-Nosed Triple-Barreled-Surname, Esq. Capitain, RN
--------
;) nifty, albeit a bit stereotypical vignette, isn't ?
William Black
>> I notice also that on paper are available nifty and *original* places
>> for live sailpunk RPG'ing but I fear that RN and USN will really frown
>> at the idea of a bunch of live role-players fooling aboard HMS Victory
>> and USS Constitution respectively... ;)
>
> You call it "re-enactment", and ask how much to hire the place for the
> weekend. Victory, at least, can be hired for dinners and the like.
> However, I suspect that the rate for the weekend will be unaffordable.
>
The 'Historical Maritime Society' in the UK are trying to recreate a
frigate crew.
There are a couple of frigate reconstructions kicking about for them to
play with. Not sure where the pictures on their web page are from but
it looks like Trinacomalee.
http://www.hms-trincomalee.co.uk/
j...@cix.compulink.co.uk
dott.Pierg...@KAIGUN.fastwebnet.it (dott.Piergiorgio) wrote:
> Put the party on a sailing 5th or 6th rate frigate or an unrated
> sloop/brig on overseas cruising patrol and problem solved....
How so? There's still a captain, whose word is more-or-less law.
> meh... there's transcripts of the session or like available ?
And as for radio: for small-scale, short-time-scale operations in early
WWII, the point in hauling a heavy, short-range set when there's little
anyone outside can do to help you and it ruins your cover, really is
quite limited.
Jack Linthicum
> In article <wf1Bn.165396$813.43...@tornado.fastwebnet.it>,
The Spy That Came in From the Cold
Jack Linthicum
In case you are interested in a genuine crew the tunnels under
Portland Oregon still exist and the trap doors for Shanghai-ing would
be cheaper than most recruiting.
Alan Lothian
<fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >Mind you, we get dressed up in expensive black clothes at Halloween and
> >go and walk about there.
> >
>
> Well, that's what one would expect (that you would get dressed up in
> expensive Black clothes), unless you routinely steal expensive clothes
> to wear...
You've never been to Whitby, Fred. The Germans had it sussed out almost
a century ago, and sent ships to shoot the shit out of the place.
Didn't work, but a nice try.
Note Obsmn.
Me, I simply don't understand "steampunk". Is it something to do with
nasal piercings? Or piston-like machinery that should never, but never,
be brought to the attention of French nurses? I confess honest
ignorance.
--
"The past resembles the future as water resembles water" -- Ibn Khaldun
If you wish to email me, try putting a dot between alan and lothian.
Blueyonder is a thing of the past.
William Black
> In article <rrb9t5lpf2qkm8r53...@4ax.com>, Fred J. McCall
> <fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> William Black <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Mind you, we get dressed up in expensive black clothes at Halloween and
>>> go and walk about there.
>>>
>> Well, that's what one would expect (that you would get dressed up in
>> expensive Black clothes), unless you routinely steal expensive clothes
>> to wear...
>
> You've never been to Whitby, Fred. The Germans had it sussed out almost
> a century ago, and sent ships to shoot the shit out of the place.
>
> Didn't work, but a nice try.
>
> Note Obsmn.
>
> Me, I simply don't understand "steampunk". Is it something to do with
> nasal piercings? Or piston-like machinery that should never, but never,
> be brought to the attention of French nurses? I confess honest
> ignorance.
>
Well Steampunk is technically a Science Fiction sub genre. The fashion
scene is usually known as 'Neo-Victorian' by people on the outside
looking in.
The people involved call themselves 'Steampunks'
It's a Goth sub group.
The usual indicator is brass goggles worn on the hat...
I think you'll like the style...
Victorian mourning dress with decadent overtones and tech highlights...
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/6/18/633809119214872825-steampunk.jpg
http://wrathofzombie.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/steampunk.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3274/2708950087_d57d73ba30.jpg