Torlls and Flamers
Jan
About Trolls and Flamers
Diane Wilson speaks from her soapbox:
As someone in another newsgroup said, it's troll season.
For what it's worth......
We have two people here (at the moment, anyway) who have certain basic troll
characteristics:
They are unable or unwilling to take responsibility for their words or
behavior.
They are unable or unwilling to consider the possibility that they have brought
a great deal of dislike upon themselves.
I don't know for certain, but my feeling is that each of them is filled with
self-hate, and is unable to face that issue.
OK.
I've dealt with self-haters before, and this is what you can expect:
The only thing they can do with their venom is to flush it out on other people.
As a result, everything they say about you is a reflection of their feelings
about themselves.
Because of their self-hate, there is nothing that you can say that is as bad as
what they see in themselves. You can't hurt them, no matter how hard you try.
The only thing that relieves their self-hate is to see other people in pain. If
you let them get to you, that only encourages them. That's why they're here in
the first place.
The point is that flaming them hurts you more than it hurts them.
What makes it worse--been here, seen this before, too--is that these trolls are
insiders. Yes, they hurt, they're depressed, they are at least as far down as
any of us. What that means is that they know all the right buttons to push to
make us angry. They have no conscience that prevents them from pushing those
buttons.
That is the difference between them and us. They have turned abusive. Yes, that
does make a difference. I've encountered some recovering abusers on the net,
and I learned a few things from that experience. The one thing that sustains an
abuser is denial; an abuser cannot allow hirself to be open to the slightest
possibility that sie is harming another human being. They blame anyone and
anything else in sight, but virtually all of that blame is directed at the
victim, in one way or another. Abusers REFUSE to take responsibility for their
behavior.
In dealing with an abuser, particularly from a treatment perspective, the first
and most important step is to break that denial. It is not only breaking the
denial about hurting other people. It is essential to break the denial that
they are not responsible for their behavior. They must learn that they have to
take responsibility for everything that they do, and it is a hard lesson to
teach.
Until an abuser's denial is broken, it is dangerous to give them any sympathy.
Sympathy gives them a way out, a way to avoid taking responsibility. Someone
else made them the way they are; they're not responsible. This is utter
garbage, and to give them this opening is truly a disservice.
So.
They are here to feed on our pain. We don't have to give them that
satisfaction.
They stay only as long as we feed them well. If we want them to go, all we have
to do is to stop feeding them.
The solution for trolls is in two parts. First, recognize and understand that
they are here to hurt us. They way that they hurt us is to beat on us with
their own rage. Recognize that everything they say about us is a reflection of
their own self-hate. Even when they hit our triggers, it is their rage, their
self-hatred that they are giving us. We don't have to let ourselves be hurt by
the fact that they hate themselves. We don't have to accept that. We can let
them drown in their self-hate, simply by ignoring them.
And that is the second part. If you want a troll to go away, ignore hir. When
no one responds to them, they are left with their own venom. That is the last
thing that a troll wants to have to deal with.
Let us build an ASD zoo. Let us build cages, and put the appropriate names on
those cages. Then let us put a sign in front of those cages:
DO NOT FEED THE ANIMALS.
Then, most importantly, let us not feed the animals. Killfile or ignore them,
but do not respond to them, and do not accept their pain as your own.
In a more practical manner, John Timothy brings it all down to five simple
rules:
(1) Don't read posts from or about abusers;
(2) Don't read email from or about abusers;
(3) If you can't resist reading, don't respond;
(4) If you can't resist responding, do so by email--not by posting here;
(5) If you are compelled to post a response, if you just can't stop yourself,
at least do the rest of us the favor of adding the abuser's name to the subject
line, so we can avoid reading that post. Thanks.
garden_state
"Jan" <jdrew...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020812032507...@mb-mr.aol.com...
Helpful post; rings true. Thanks for sharing.
Regards, Marian
Joel M. Eichen
> http://www.firelily.com/support/depression/trolls.html
>
> About Torlls (sic!) and Flamers
>
> Diane Wilson speaks from her soapbox:
>
>
*******************
This is sci.med.dentistry. People who have dental problems are
entitled to hear discussions by qualified (degreed and licensed)
practitioners. A Torll (sic!) is someone who uses every opportunity to
spread misinformation about this profession.
I for one do not like it.
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S.
DEBBEE1023
spread misinformation about this profession.
I for one do not like it. >>
So change careers!!
Sabra Broock
There are many details about the Jan Drew character that I don't
understand. I have noticed one thing though and I wonder if you or
any of the other oldtime smders might have an opinion about this.
Jan Drew needs to avoid and discredit me at every opportunity "she"
gets. Why me? I'm not a dentist. I had serious problems develop
because of the action of some dentists (too many for one person). I
had a mission to get the word out that it's better to say "I don't
know" than to act as though you do when you don't (know). My goal was
to ask questions based in what kind of life I had been living in hopes
that thinking people and thinking professionals would realize that the
lack of good and solid answers is meaningful and is what good science
is and should be all about.
But Jan Drew either knew from lurking or by messenger that I would not
support a cause like hers. But when I watch Jan at work in smd, I
suspect that she thinks she is utilizing some tactics that belong me.
Jan wants to pretend to have no interest in me or my role in this
newsgroup. She pretends to have me in her killfile. It is possible
that this is a distraction technique. I know a lot about how to
conduct a flamewar. She has studied the technique and put her twist
on it. She is not impersonating *me* but she is attempting to make
use of my techniques.
Jan's big mistake is in failing to realize that I never was and I am
not an unreasonable person seeking the unreasonable of reasonable
people. This is why her use of my flame tactics gets her nowhere.
Jan Drew needs to keep away from me. She needs me to stay away from
her. There is a reason for this and I may be all wrong about what I
suspect. There are a few posts in the archives about cyberstalking
and borderline personalities online. I know who put those posts there
and I don't know what the connection, if any, is between Jan Drew and
those posts. But I think there is a connection.
Sabra Broock
On 12 Aug 2002 10:24:10 -0700, joel_...@hotmail.com (Joel M.
Sabra Broock
should be given the award of being Usenet's Greatest Stonewaller. As
stonewalling goes ... nobody can touch "her" in smd.
Sabra Broock
On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:30:28 GMT, sa...@mesadrive.com (Sabra Broock)
wrote:
>Hi Joel,
>
>There are many details about the Jan Drew character that I don't
>understand.
[cut]
>
>
>On 12 Aug 2002 10:24:10 -0700, joel_...@hotmail.com (Joel M.
>Eichen) wrote:
>
>>jdrew...@aol.com (Jan) wrote in message news:<20020812032507...@mb-mr.aol.com>...
>>> http://www.firelily.com/support/depression/trolls.html
>>>
>>> About Torlls (sic!) and Flamers
>>>
[cut]
bbb
"DEBBEE1023" <debbe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020812141606...@mb-fm.aol.com...
Yet another good one from debbee!
Carlo Hoskins
better)
> (5) If you are compelled to post a response, if you just can't stop yourself,
> at least do the rest of us the favor of adding the abuser's name to the
> subject
> line, so we can avoid reading that post. Thanks.
As long as Jan offers her unqualified opinions to unsuspecting people, I'll
respond that she's unqualified, a victim of blind zeal, uneducated, an
advocate of poorly supported and accepted junk science, etc...
Jan's the troll. I won't deny that she's all pious and sincere...that just
happens to be the scary part. She doesn't have to go away as long as she
can accept a collective lack of respect. And why should I respect her? She
thinks she's right and we're all in denial...the professionals...the health
care providers.
--
Carlo Hoskins
Bullshit.
Dr. Steve
I just assumed she likes to get everyone real worked up over nothing. I
doubt she has enough sense to think that far ahead. If she really was part
of a deeper plot, someone with better debating skills would have been
chosen. Even her bosom buddy (Ms. Adams) lacks in communication skills.
Some people just should not let their teenage kids play with computers.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
drs...@home.msen.com
Troy, Michigan USA
+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will effect
your health.
......................
"Sabra Broock" <sa...@mesadrive.com> wrote in message
news:3d57f96d...@news.mesadrive.com...
Sabra Broock
credit.
DrCnBseen
Actually its very easy to diagnose J. Drew. Ever see the movie "As good as it
gets". (S)he's the real life version of obsessive-compusive in that movie. I
glad you have the energy to continue to respond to her junk science.
Stan,
I rather be re(cor)ading
Joel M. Eichen
REPLY:
Okay ... any openings over at that law firm of yours?
Joel
Joel M. Eichen
> "Jan" <jdrew...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20020812032507...@mb-mr.aol.com...
> > http://www.firelily.com/support/depression/trolls.html
> >
> > About Trolls and Flamers
> >
Marian writes .....
> >
> Hello Jan,
> Helpful post; rings true. Thanks for sharing.
> Regards, Marian
REPLY:
Yup. However, dentistry is not like discussing the pros and cons of
invading Iraq. That is opinion.
What Jan Drew does not know is that we are not espousing our
"opinions," we are telling folks what we have learned in dental school
and in many years experience in the years after.
Look at the fine posts by a Golosov, a Mancuso, a Bornfeld, a Fawks,
and so many other anonymous and semi-anonymous people!
Then realize they are doctors!
Do not take their advice lightly and do not put it in the same
container as opinionated ignnoramuses!
Remember what Ben Franklin said: "Beware of the old barber and the
young doctor ... and always beware of anyone named Jan Drew."
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S.
DEBBEE1023
>>
I don't know, I'm lucky to work from home!!! :>)
Jan
>Date: 8/12/02 7:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <OWP59.9183$Ep6.7...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>Hello Jan,
>Helpful post; rings true
Sorry, I don't have any self-hate or hate anyone on any ng. I have never been a
stalker. I don't diagnose.I don't use foul language. I take full responsibility
for my posts .I have NOT nuked them. I don't use ill and dead parents to
belittle.
A pity you have overlooked these things.
Your problem.
Jan
Rich
wrote:
>Hi Joel,
>
>There are many details about the Jan Drew character that I don't
>understand. I have noticed one thing though and I wonder if you or
>any of the other oldtime smders might have an opinion about this.
>
>Jan Drew needs to avoid and discredit me at every opportunity "she"
>gets. Why me? I'm not a dentist.
Well I don't know the entire history between you and Jan but I suspect
that she has it in for you because you have been confronting her about
her obnoxious behavior and delusional ideas. You see Jan (and her
enabler Debbee too) are extremely immature, insecure and
hypersensitive to criticism and rejection. They both respond with
great rage whenever they perceive (or even misperceive) criticism
coming in their direction. My sense of the way you have been posting
is that you are honest, direct, to the point and pull no punches. That
will certainly put you at the head of Jan's hate list.
She pretends to have me in her killfile. It is possible
>that this is a distraction technique.
She also pretends to have me in her kill file. And as you have seen
this enables her to respond to my posts (when she sees ,@.) with
simple insults and ridicule while denying what it is I am saying. This
gives her plausible deniability. Debbee does much of the same thing.
They are really like two peas in a pod. Actually I think that the more
they hang out together in these newsgroups, the more they identify
with each other and begin to incorporate characteristics of each other
that make it appear that they are the same person.
>
>Jan's big mistake is in failing to realize that I never was and I am
>not an unreasonable person seeking the unreasonable of reasonable
>people. This is why her use of my flame tactics gets her nowhere.
If Jan works on you long enough you may find that yo do become an
unreasonable person. Jan seems to bring out the worst in people. Sadly
she lacks complete insight into her obnoxious behavior and her
enablers just make the situation worse.
The trick in dealing with Jan Drew is the realization that she is
completely psychotic and has completely lost touch with reality.
Trying to get her to *see* something which may seem quite obvious to
you is met with incredible resistance due to her denial and delusions.
It can get quite exasperating. But her real enemies are people like
Debbee who encourage her maladaptive and dysfunctional behavior and
enable her to continue down the path of self destruction.
Aloha,
Rich
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
The best defense to logic is ignorance.
Rich
<drs...@home.msen.com> wrote:
>
>I just assumed she likes to get everyone real worked up over nothing.
I don't think that this is the dynamic behind Jan's behavior.
I believe that Jan is truly psychotic and delusional. She has created
her own reality and gets very defensive and frustrated when someone
challenges her reality with logical reasons. And the closer that you
get to breaking through her denial, the more vicious she gets in her
reaction. The pattern is quite clear. She is paranoid and thinks that
people are against her so she "appropriately" (in her mind based on
the paranoia) lashes out angrily while accusing others (projection) of
the very thing that she is guilty of. And Debbee who seems more
psychopathic than psychotic seems to be incorporating some of Jan's
impaired reality testing into her own personality. It is quite
fascinating to see how these two feed off each other.
Jan (and Debbee for that matter) sees usenet as a support group. She
stays on primarily because of the support that she gets from her
enablers. If her enablers began to confront her about her behavior it
is likely she would leave this group. But as long as she is getting
support she will stay on. And the support by her enablers is returned
by Jan in kind.
Debbee and Jan have formed an incredibly dysfunctional but powerful
bond in which each supports the others irrational thinking. At the
rate they are going each is going to cause the other to spiral out of
control. Just watch and you will see the self destruction before your
eyes. It will not be a pretty sight.
Aloha,
Rich
I
>doubt she has enough sense to think that far ahead. If she really was part
>of a deeper plot, someone with better debating skills would have been
>chosen. Even her bosom buddy (Ms. Adams) lacks in communication skills.
>
>Some people just should not let their teenage kids play with computers.
------------------------------------------------
Rich
>>From: "garden_state" garden...@worldnet.att.net.INVALID
>>Date: 8/12/02 7:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <OWP59.9183$Ep6.7...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>
>>Hello Jan,
>>Helpful post; rings true
>
>Sorry, I don't have any self-hate or hate anyone on any ng.
>I wish for you a good dose of mercury poisoning, peripheral neuropathy and
>migraine headaches.
>
>Jan
>
> >Little do you know anything about the *10 Commandments* Jew Boy.
>Jan
>What's the big deal? Calling you a jew boy was exactly because you are a jew
>Jan
I have never been a
>stalker.
You have posted two individuals complete name address and phone
number.
YOu do Google search on me for the sole purpose of finding information
from other newsgroups to discredit me (eg hiking in the nude) and then
post it here.
You do Google search on me in an attempt to prove who you think is my
real identity in order to harass me.
I don't diagnose.I don't use foul language.
>bitch
Jan
>pussy
Jan
I take full responsibility
>for my posts
Yep. And I am the Easter Bunny.
.I have NOT nuked them.
Maybe you should. Anyone who sees your posts would have grounds to
commit you.
I don't use ill and dead parents to
>belittle.
I belittled you for spending countless hours on usenet instead of
being with your ill parents. You said that you did not spend time with
your parents because you were retired and wanted to enjoy yourself
since you took care of people your whole life. I take full
responsibility for every post I made to you.
Get over it Jan. Stop using your parents to try to get sympathy. Deal
with your guilt about denying that your parents were close to death
and then having one die before you had a chance to spend time with
them rather than post your mindless drivel in usenet. If you continue
to blame others for your own faults you will never get anywhere. And
at your rate you never will get anywhere except to blame everyone
under the sun for your problems as you continue your lifelong role as
the victim. Get some help before it is too late.
Aloha,
Rich
>
> A pity you have overlooked these things.
A pity you seem to overlook you own obnoxious behavior and egregious
hypocrisy.
Aloha,
Rich
------------------------------------------------
bbb
avoid after the 'Jan/Debbee Lesbian Scandal!'
I'm not saying this rumor is true or false... Although, I'm thinking it's
false as one cannot be a lesbian with oneself!
"Jan" <jdrew...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020812032507...@mb-mr.aol.com...
bbb
> << Okay ... any openings over at that law firm of yours?
> >>
>
> I don't know, I'm lucky to work from home!!! :>)
>
Are you the lucky one... or is it your co-workers?
DEBBEE1023
>
Are you the lucky one... or is it your co-workers >>
I'm the lucky one. :>)
Steven Fawks
is someone else's fault than to deal with the idea that her own brain
betrayed her.
:-(
Fawks
Steven Fawks
She expects others with concerns about dental care to support her. When
Sabra points out how far off Jan really is, it is a crushing blow.
Pretty simple,
Fawks
Jan
>sic!)
>From: Steven Fawks tuthj...@earthlink.net
>Date: 8/13/02 5:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3D58A3...@earthlink.net>
>
>She expects dentists to be against her
More diagnosing?
>That's part of her "religion".
No that's an opinion.
>She expects others with concerns about dental care to support her.
Subject: Thanks to Jan,,,,
From: "Rod" denie...@hotmail.com
Date: 7/31/02 7:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <00S19.49685$Hj3.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>
Hi to all,
I wish to express gratitude to Jan for making me aware of Dental issues.
I suffer from Rheumatoid Arthritis and have done so since 1994. Having this
degenerative disease has forced changes on my lifestyle to a great extent
since not being able to tolerate the medications that are often prescribed,
My Doctor and Rheumatologist recommended that I find alternatives to
medications which is why I frequent this Ng as well as others.
Well I am happy to report that since early 1999 have I have not had to
endure the agony of the previous five years and continue to make
improvement. One of the major improvements was the taking of CMO (Cetyl
Myristoleate)
I found that this "Alternative" returned my knees to normal and allowed me
to continue working.
The matter of Dental Health was also addressed during the past year and I,
with consent of my Dentist, changed over a three month period. the majority
of my fillings to what is called "Composites"
I am happy to report that since that change that my feet and hands have
improved noticeably and that I suffer less with the morning stiffness so
often associated with Rheumatoid Arthritis.
I still maintain mercury fillings however they have been reduced by over 50%
WITH THE DENTAL CHANGES.
Strangely other people that I correspond with have also noted an improvement
in their well being since changing their amalgams to composites.
So a sincere "Thank you Jan" for making me look at the issues regarding
Dental Health. Believe me I have implemented these things "Aussie" Style
and have enjoyed the benefit despite the "she'll be right" attitude of my
Dentist. (Amalgam flying everywhere)
Deniece and I are to shortly visit Canada and the US during the next eight
weeks and I am most thankful of being able to make this trip, due to
improved health.
Incidentally I won the trip in a competition and it included the Canadian
Rockies tour as well as the Alaskan cruise. Wow! so we extend it all to
include Hawaii , North West USA and Hong Kong.
So good things still happen which makes it all so much worthwhile.
Many thanks Jan,
Sincerely, Rod
Jan - don't let them get you down. You never know how many people you
reach who don't say anything.
You are so right - amalgams and root canals. The cancer of
dentistry. Keep up the good work. My
compliments to you on your even tempered and thorough response. Some
people just don't want to
learn because they know they will have to radically change their dental
practice if they are convinced
of the error of their ways. And some people like bbb just scream about
anything. They will never learn.
But others will - and you are reaching them.
Good Work!
>When
>Sabra points out how far off Jan really is, it is a crushing blow.
What Sabra points out is her busy body meddling, even with the possibility of
hurting innocent people, and posting personal ifno on others.
>Pretty simple,
>Fawks
Indeed.
Jan
"Jay"
> Deniece and I are to shortly visit Canada and the US during the next eight
> weeks and I am most thankful of being able to make this trip, due to
> improved health.
Surely, going on a trip is an indicator of good health.
> So good things still happen which makes it all so much worthwhile.
Aww...
> Jan - don't let them get you down. You never know how many people you
> reach who don't say anything.
> You are so right - amalgams and root canals. The cancer of
> dentistry. Keep up the good work. My
> compliments to you on your even tempered and thorough response. Some
> people just don't want to
> learn because they know they will have to radically change their dental
> practice if they are convinced
> of the error of their ways. And some people like bbb just scream about
> anything. They will never learn.
> But others will - and you are reaching them.
Does anyone have a projection if dentists would loose income by being forced
to use composites instead of amalgam? I.e. would patients not seek care
knowing if composites were more expensive or would the patients reject care
because of the cost of composites? Would the banning of amalgam cause
composites to drop in price?
Dr. Steve
fee go down? We could then all do a 15-30% more expensive procedure for
"bread and butter" restorations. Many people choose the posterior resin
anyway, especially young people. The cost is going to go up regardless.
Look at medical care and hospital stays.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
drs...@home.msen.com
Troy, Michigan USA
+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will effect
your health.
......................
""Jay"" <noemailad...@nowheretobeemailed.org> wrote in message
news:PA969.102449$sA3.2...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
garden_state
> Jan wrote: (actually she just quoted someone else whose english is a
little
> better)
>
> As long as Jan offers her unqualified opinions to unsuspecting people,
I'll
> respond that she's unqualified, a victim of blind zeal, uneducated, an
> advocate of poorly supported and accepted junk science, etc...
>
> Jan's the troll. I won't deny that she's all pious and sincere...that
just
> happens to be the scary part. She doesn't have to go away as long as she
> can accept a collective lack of respect. And why should I respect her?
She
> thinks she's right and we're all in denial...the professionals...the
health
> care providers.
>
> --
> Carlo Hoskins
> Bullshit.
>
Look forward to your posts. Enjoyed your "don't know sh*t from Shinola"
reference, hadn't heard that since Hector was a pup, but respectfully
request that from now on you play the ball not the player.
Best Regards, Marian
Alex Maas
>
> REPLY:
>
> Yup. However, dentistry is not like discussing the pros and cons of
> invading Iraq. That is opinion.
>
> What Jan Drew does not know is that we are not espousing our
> "opinions," we are telling folks what we have learned in dental school
> and in many years experience in the years after.
>
> Look at the fine posts by a Golosov, a Mancuso, a Bornfeld, a Fawks,
> and so many other anonymous and semi-anonymous people!
>
> Then realize they are doctors!
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S.
On the other hand, get ten orthodontists together to look at one
patient, and orthodontists themselves have told me you would often get
ten completely different opinions on treatment. If these are not
opinions, what are they?
For my son, for example, different orthodontists have suggested jaw
surgery, no jaw surgery, a Herbst appliance, the use of a twin-block
appliance, avoiding any and all functional appliances, immediate
extraction, no extraction, further palatal expansion, no palatal
expansion, myofunctional therapy for tongue thrust, the use of a fixed
appliance to prevent tongue thrust, and also no belief whatsoever in
the effect of tongue thrust upon the alignment of the teeth. I only
wanted to find two people orthodontists who agreed with one another.
I never did. I might be wrong, but it seems to me that there is at
least an element of opinion involved, even in any course of dental
treatment.
I know that one excellent dentist that believes that gold is still
the best material for fillings. I know another excellent dentist that
believes the newer composite materials are just as good, if not
better. I don't know what the research shows, and I shouldn't have to
as a patient. But from my perspective, these are each opinions,
perhaps even based on the same set of facts.
But, you are right, the professionals who participate in this
newsgroup have been extremely helpful to me by sharing their
knowledge. And I have come to understand that different courses of
treatment work equally well with different practitioners. But I still
think there is an element of opinion involved.
Alex Maas
Jan
>Date: 8/15/02 10:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <1c647bc3.02081...@posting.google.com>
>
>j
>>
>> REPLY:
>>
>> Yup. However, dentistry is not like discussing the pros and cons of
>> invading Iraq. That is opinion.
>>
>> What Jan Drew does not know is that we are not espousing our
>> "opinions," we are telling folks what we have learned in dental school
>> and in many years experience in the years after.
Jan Drew knows that all too well!
What is taught in dental school,,,,,,,,,
by *organized medicine and dentistry*
and the LYING,,,,,,ADA.
>> Look at the fine posts by a Golosov, a Mancuso, a Bornfeld, a Fawks,
>> and so many other anonymous and semi-anonymous people!
III) Fetal Malformations
III a) Sheep Study
III b) Rat Studies
III c) Human StudyIV) Alzheimer's Disease Studies IV a) Trace Elements in
Alzheimer's Disease Brains IV b) Mercury Vapor Inhalation Inhibits Tubulin in
Rat Brain IV c) HgEDTA Complex Inhibits Tubulin IV d) Increased Blood Mercury
Levels in Patients with Alzheimer's Disease IVe) Mercury Induces Cell
Cytotoxicity and Oxidative Stress and Increases ß-Amyloid Secretion and Tau
Phosphorylation in SHSY5Y Neuroblastoma Cells IV f) Retrograde degeneration of
neurite membrane structural integrity of nerve growth cones following in vitro
exposure to mercury
V) Amalgam Removal
V a) Patient Preparation for Amalgam Removal
V b) Dental Procedures for Patient Protection During amalgam Removal
V c) Amalgam Removal without Patient Protection
V d) Amalgam Removal with Patient Protection
V e) Pregnancy Precaution V f) Patient Reports V g) Chronic Disease a Big
Financial Burden, and GrowingVI) Dental Mercury A Source of Air and Water
PollutionVIa) Mercury in Dental Clinic Wastewater DischargeVII) American Dental
Association's (ADA) Position
VII a) Journal of the American Dental Association
VII b) Superior Court Demurrer
VII c) ADA Code of Ethics
VII d) ADA Internet SiteVIII) Composite Restoration MaterialIX) State Statute
IX a) Colorado Statute
IX b) The Need for "Reputalble Disclosure"
IX c) The Fallacies of Informed Consent
A personal perspective and not an official position of DAMS)
IXd) Mandatory Labeling of "The Other "X) Amalgam LawsuitXI) Notice to Amalgam
Manufactures XII) Government Phase Outs XIII) Organizations XIV) Books
Available XV) Newsletters XVI) Other Web Pages XVII) Amalgam Related
Conventions XVIII) Request for Finincial Support of Web Page IXX) The Mercury
Free and Healthy Campaign (Bumper Sticker Orders) XX) DAMS PRESS RELEASE XXa)
Mercury in Dental Filling Disclosure and Prohibition Act
I) Introduction
http://www.curezone.com/dental/
http://www.lichtenberg.dk/symptoms_before_and_after_proper.htm
http://www.web-light.nl/AMALGAM/amalgam.html
http://www.earthtym.net/merc-tox.htm
http://www.heart-disease-bypass-surgery.com/data/articles/63.htm
http://www.whale.to/d/cancer.html
http://www.holisticmed.com/dental/amalgam/child.html
Amalgam Can Cause Brain Damage in Children
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~berniew1/fdbtest.html
http://www.karlloren.com/ultrasound/p25.htm
http://www.vimy-dentistry.com/nhanesstudy.htm
http://www.stanford.edu/~bcalhoun/amalgam.htm
http://www.holisticmed.com/dental/amalgam/
http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C585969.html
http://www.worldwatch.org/alerts/010321a.html
http://lawschool.stanford.edu/library/special/cavitybib.html
http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Dentistry/dental.htm
http://www.lichtenberg.dk/mercury_vapour_in_the_oral_cavit.htm
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/amalgam.htm
http://www.amalgam.ukgo.com/amalgm21.htm
http://www.altcorp.com/hgexposure.htm
http://www.altcorp.com/SlideShows/mercury/index.htm
http://www.earthtym.net/merc-links.htm#L-3
http://ad.trafficmp.com/tmpad/content/trip/pop8.html
http://directory.google.com/Top/Health/Alternative/Non-Toxic_Living/Mercur
y_and_Amalgams/
Mercury exposure from "silver" tooth fillings: emerging evidence questions
atraditional dental paradigm. Lorscheider FL, Vimy MJ, Summers AO Department of
Medical Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Calgary,Alberta,
Canada.For more than 160 years dentistry has used silver amalgam, which
containsapproximately 50% Hg metal, as the preferred tooth filling material.
During thepast decade medical research has demonstrated that this Hg is
continuouslyreleased as vapor into mouth air; then it is inhaled, absorbed into
bodytissues, oxidized to ionic Hg, and finally covalently bound to cell
proteins.Animal and human experiments demonstrate that the uptake, tissue
distribution,and excretion of amalgam Hg is significant, and that dental
amalgam is themajor contributing source to Hg body burden in humans. Current
research on thepathophysiological effects of amalgam Hg has focused upon the
immune system,renal system, oral and intestinal bacteria, reproductive system,
and thecentral nervous system. Research evidence does not support the notion
ofamalgam safety.Publication Types: Review Review, tutorial Comments: Comment
in: FASEB J 1995 Nov;9(14):1499-500 PMID: 7737458, UI: 95255604
http://www.algonet.se/~leif/FUSCIFCT.html
47 scientific proven facts with 67 references.
http://emporium.turnpike.net/P/PDHA/mercury/asr.htm
http://www.sevaonline.com/English/RechUK.htm
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~berniew1/index.html
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~berniew1/indexa.html
"Jay"
> and the LYING,,,,,,ADA.
When you claim the ADA is lying it would be nice to substaintiate where they
have lied with a single source instead of posting all your garbage as no one
in their right mind will sift through all your clamoring.
Jan
>Date: 8/15/02 1:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <83U69.129066$sA3.2...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>
>
>"Jan" <jdrew...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20020815160310...@mb-cp.aol.com...
>> and the LYING,,,,,,ADA.
>
>When you claim the ADA is lying it would be nice to substaintiate where they
>have lied with a single source
Try groups. google.com
<snip moe insults from>
nomailaddressnowheretobefoundnonamenohomenowherenonuttin,,,,,,,honey
Jan
"Jay"
> >When you claim the ADA is lying it would be nice to substaintiate where
they
> >have lied with a single source
>
> Try groups. google.com
That's a single source except it covers everything from alaskians to zebras.
:)
> Jan
Jan
>Message-id: <CBV69.42005$Zl2.8754@sccrnsc02>
Duh, type in my e-mail address.
Unlike you some people have one. *;*
Jan
"Jay"
From groups.google.com:
Searched Groups for author:jdrew...@aol.com. Results 1 - 10 of
about 14,900.
If you think I am going to read roughly 14,900 posts to find the source
where the ADA are inherentily liars you are dreaming.
> Jan
Jan
Um,,,,,,,,,,not all posts are the ADA lies. Know how to do a search??
Jan
"Jay"
> >From groups.google.com:
> >
> > Searched Groups for author:jdrew...@aol.com. Results 1 - 10 of
> >about 14,900.
> >
> >
> >If you think I am going to read roughly 14,900 posts to find the source
> >where the ADA are inherentily liars you are dreaming.
>
> Um,,,,,,,,,,not all posts are the ADA lies. Know how to do a search??
>
> Jan
Well I am not going to do a search for "lying ADA" because I will get the
same cut & paste clamoring that I was avoiding in the first place! If you
had any sense you would see that I am showing you how ridiculous your
rhetoric is. How about you provide me with a source that proves the ADA are
inherently liars and keep your rhetoric to your own insecurities. Wait...
you can't because the ADA is an organization that changes over time with
changing officers and a corporation can not run, jump, climb, speak or lie.
So if you had a point to make you would have made it a long time ago...
Apparently your points have never come across... So forget about making them
now as you are just frustrating yourself and wasting everyone else's time on
smd.
I can't believe parents entrusted the welfare of their children under your
care. With someone who has as many problems as you do, you should have
never touched a child, yours or anyone else. That does make me sick. Ugh.
bbb
get 10?":
1+9
2+8
3+7
4+6
5+5
etc.
In no way equal, but they all have the same ends. Get it? I'm sure even an
imbeciles such as yourself can comprehend this... eh? When you say "Hmm..
1+9 is 10," you are not opining, you are stating a fact, does it dispel the
fact that 8+2=10? No. Similarly, when one orthodontist says "Treatment A
will work," and a different one says that B will do the same thing, does the
fact that A works in any way discount the fact that B works? No. I implore
you to not go on about the various methods of treatment suggested for your
son, it simply is a waste of time. And please, whatever you do, don't
become another Jan Drew... you may not realize it, but it's bound to happen
at this rate!
bbb
<begin mindless whining>
Alex Maas
"bbb" <pisss...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ulp39p8...@corp.supernews.com...
Alex Maas
> sorry.... that last post was in response to this:
>
>
> <begin mindless whining>
>
>
Actually, I am not here to insult people, which apparently you seem
to have in common with Jan Drew. If that is her real name, at least
she has more courage than you. I only came here to find information
from professionals. And although the professionals here have gone out
of their way to be quite helpful to me, I have come to realize it is
really not possible give a really good evaluation of any dental
condition over the internet even with X-rays and photos.
And performing orthodontics is quite different from performing
addition. If the goals of orthodontists were the same, your analogy
might be correct. However, orthodontists often have different
long-term goals in mind. So, your assumption that all orthodontists
have the same ends in mind is quite incorrect.
Some place facial cosmetics as the primary goal, others the
straightening of the teeth as the only goal, and others avoiding
long-term consequences. Some orthodontists wanted to stretch my son's
lower chin forward primarily for cosmetic reasons, even though his
overbite and overjet are only slight. And, according to other
orthodontists, using functional appliances to accomplish this can
cause TMJ in the long-term. The means to the goals, the goals
themselves, and the implications of the means are all factors to
consider in a course of treatment. I hope you can see this is quite
different than addition.
The orthodontist we chose was glad to hear I don't really care
about my son having a perfect facial structure, as I just care about
the function of his teeth and mouth. Since I had braces for six years
as a child, and was then sent to another orthodontist by my dentist
who told me my orthodontics had been done all wrong and would lead to
the eventual loss of all of my teeth, I do know that when someone says
"Treatment A" will work, possible long-term implications ay
not be understood.
And I would certainly say that it is quite easy to say that a
diamond is harder than sandstone (look it up, if you need to). It
should be a fact that substance A is better than substance B for
fillings, but a dentist makes an opinion based on the research with
which he or she is familiar. Eventually, enough research should prove
A or B is better. Until that time, the dentist makes an opinion.
Thanks again for all your comments. I really appreciate your input.
Alex Maas
(not afraid to use my real name)
Jan
>Date: 8/17/02 11:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <1c647bc3.02081...@posting.google.com>
<snip>
> Actually, I am not here to insult people, which apparently you seem
>to have in common with Jan Drew.
Wrong. I have nothing is common with pissswisher, and I am not here to insult
people. The insulting is directed at me.
>If that is her real name, at least
>she has more courage than you.
<snip>
>Alex Maas
>(not afraid to use my real name)
Good point!
Jan
Rich
>>From: a.m...@att.net (Alex Maas)
>>Date: 8/17/02 11:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <1c647bc3.02081...@posting.google.com>
>
><snip>
>
>> Actually, I am not here to insult people, which apparently you seem
>>to have in common with Jan Drew.
>
>Wrong. I have nothing is common with pissswisher, and I am not here to insult
>people. The insulting is directed at me.
Right Jan.
You NEVER insult or belittle anyone.
You are ALWAYS the victim.
And it is everyone else who is in DENIAL.
You only speak the truth.
LOL!!!
>
>>If that is her real name, at least
>>she has more courage than you.
>
><snip>
>
>>Alex Maas
>>(not afraid to use my real name)
>
>Good point!
Why?? So that you could use a person's real identity to harass them in
their private life?? You have already done that to two posters in mha.
And you continue to try to reveal what you believe is my real identity
on usenet. And you have the audacity to accuse ME of stalking.
But you can do no wrong Jan Drew.
You don't lie, belittle, insult or stalk people.
Everything you do is given God's seal of approval.
NOT!!!
bbb
> >From: a.m...@att.net (Alex Maas)
> >Date: 8/17/02 11:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <1c647bc3.02081...@posting.google.com>
>
> <snip>
>
> > Actually, I am not here to insult people, which apparently you seem
> >to have in common with Jan Drew.
>
> Wrong. I have nothing is common with pissswisher, and I am not here to
insult
> people. The insulting is directed at me.
As well it should be... you should start a support group for you and your
moronic cohorts! And I'm glad we have nothing in (not is, but IN) common!
I'm not a loony old broad--the thought that you and I are alike is indeed an
insult directed at me!
it is short for Andrea
son when he grows up?
Best regards,
LadyAndy2 in Los Angeles, CA (remove "nospam" to reply)
Alex Maas
> "Jan" <jdrew...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20020817173421...@mb-mc.aol.com...
> > >From: a.m...@att.net (Alex Maas)
> > >Date: 8/17/02 11:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> > >Message-id: <1c647bc3.02081...@posting.google.com>
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > Actually, I am not here to insult people, which apparently you seem
> > >to have in common with Jan Drew.
> >
> > Wrong. I have nothing is common with pissswisher, and I am not here to
> insult
> > people. The insulting is directed at me.
apologies. I didn't understand the situation entirely. Although a
certain professional claims you are here to bash dentists, I now
understand that, this person, unfortunately, like some other medical
professionals, is condescending to points of view that differ from his
own. Although he may be right, the condescension is inappropriate.
Unfortunately, I have met many medical professionals who
similarly put down any views for other professionals that differ from
their own. I don't care for this, as I have seen people actually die
from bad advice from medical professionals. Although the consequences
of dentistry and orthodontics are usually not that severe, any
responsible professional would want to learn as much as he or she can
about possible consequences of treatment.
> As well it should be... you should start a support group for you and your
> moronic cohorts! And I'm glad we have nothing in (not is, but IN) common!
> I'm not a loony old broad--the thought that you and I are alike is indeed an
> insult directed at me!
>
Of course you should take that as an insult. Glad you could manage to
figure that out! I only said I didn't come here to insult people, not
that I would not.
Of course, insulting people seems to be the purpose you are here.
Perhaps you should go back to posting on alt.seduction with people who
share your level of maturity. You remind me a lot of the teenagers,
without any balls in real-life, who use AOL to anonymously put-down
others. Maybe you would find a better home on AOL, since you are
obviously too wimpy to use your real name here.
Alex Maas
Alex Maas
Dear Andrea,
He knows all about it, actually. He really would like to be able
to say his first name so that people could understand it. He knows I
would do anything for him to get to that point, including posting on
this newsgroup. And he is getting there. All I wanted from to know
from here was to find out about the relationship between palatal
expanders and speech.
I found the professionals I need, so I have no need to participate
any longer in this newsgroup. Although there are many excellent
professionals here, and they have gone out of their way to share their
knowledge, the closed-mindedness of a very few to techniques outside
their knowledge is a little disturbing. And, of course, the flamers,
trolls, and the skewed representation here of the allied professions
makes it difficult to sort out the information.
What I have learned is that few dentists or orthodontists know a
whole lot about speech, which I find unfortunate. But some do realize
the importance of this subject to their professions and make every
effort to incorporate input from other professionals into their
practices. I am fortunate to have found professionals from different
fields that will help with the development of my son's oral
physiology.
Thanks.
Alex Maas
Jan
>Date: 8/18/02 9:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <1c647bc3.02081...@posting.google.com>
>
>"bbb" <pisss...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:<ulu1h01...@corp.supernews.com>...
>> "Jan" <jdrew...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:20020817173421...@mb-mc.aol.com...
>> > >From: a.m...@att.net (Alex Maas)
>> > >Date: 8/17/02 11:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>> > >Message-id: <1c647bc3.02081...@posting.google.com>
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> > > Actually, I am not here to insult people, which apparently you seem
>> > >to have in common with Jan Drew.
>> >
>> > Wrong. I have nothing is common with pissswisher, and I am not here to
>> insult
>> > people. The insulting is directed at me.
>
> Sorry, Jan, I didn't know the situation, so I offer you my
>apologies
Apology accepted, thank you.
>I didn't understand the situation entirely. Although a
>certain professional claims you are here to bash dentists,
Not al all. I am here to tell of my experience in the hopes of helping others,
and this has happen.
>I now
>understand that, this person, unfortunately, like some other medical
>professionals, is condescending to points of view that differ from his
>own. Although he may be right, the condescension is inappropriate.
Agreed.
>Unfortunately, I have met many medical professionals who
>similarly put down any views for other professionals that differ from
>their own. I don't care for this, as I have seen people actually die
>from bad advice from medical professionals. Although the consequences
of dentistry and orthodontics are usually not that severe, any
>responsible professional would want to learn as much as he or she can
>about possible consequences of treatment.
That's how it should be, that's not the way it is here. Sadly they attack the
messenger personally.
> As well it should be... you should start a support group for you and your
>> moronic cohorts! And I'm glad we have nothing in (not is, but IN) common!
>> I'm not a loony old broad--the thought that you and I are alike is indeed
>an
>> insult directed at me!
>Of course you should take that as an insult. Glad you could manage to
>figure that out! I only said I didn't come here to insult people, not
>that I would not.
> Of course, insulting people seems to be the purpose you are here.
>Perhaps you should go back to posting on alt.seduction with people who
>share your level of maturity. You remind me a lot of the teenagers,
>without any balls in real-life, who use AOL to anonymously put-down
>others. Maybe you would find a better home on AOL, since you are
>obviously too wimpy to use your real name here.
>
>
>
>
>
>Alex Maas
Update:
Hello,
Thank you for writing to Yahoo! Mail.
In this particular case, and based upon similar reports, we have taken
appropriate action against the Yahoo! account in question, as per our
Terms of Service (TOS). Please know that Yahoo! is unable to disclose
the action taken on another user's account with a third party. We are
not able to make exceptions to this rule.
Jan
Joel M. Eichen
> >"bbb" <pisss...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:<ulu1h01...@corp.supernews.com>...
> >> "Jan" <jdrew...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >> news:20020817173421...@mb-mc.aol.com...
> >> > >From: a.m...@att.net (Alex Maas)
> >> > >Date: 8/17/02 11:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >> > >Message-id: <1c647bc3.02081...@posting.google.com>
> >> >
So many comments here, I am confused.
I get JanDrew's comments mixed up with Wish Pisser.
Joel M. Eichen
> >I didn't understand the situation entirely. Although a
> >certain professional claims you are here to bash dentists,
>
JanDrew writes ....
Not al all. I am here
to tell of my experience
in the hopes of helping
others, and this has happen.
>
REPLY:
JanDrew REGULARLY writes ......
"oh-h-h-h-h-h-h-h--h, I feel so sorry for the patients who are being
poisoned by the dentists ...."
"o-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-, the ADA, the CDC, the AMA, and the CIA are
lie-e-e-e-e-e-yin'"
"o-h-h-h-h-h-h-h--h, get your root canal teeth ripped out .... the
dentists do not know what they are doing ..."
"o-h-h-h-h-h-h-hh--h, no composite compatibility testing? Get an
alt.dentist ......"
ETC!
MORAL:
If Jan Drew wrote of HER experiences yet allowed others, more
scientifically inclined to explain their experiences (dentists have
tens of thousands, by the way), no one would be bitching.
What is silly is a handful of people refuting decades of dental
science! To the GREAT harm of all. This is why dental diagnosis is not
allowed even by hygienists! A carefully considered evaluation requires
more than the ability to type mercury poisoning into GOOGLE and hit
search!
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S.
DEBBEE1023
JanDrew REGULARLY writes ......
>>
You know what methinks on this subject matter...(I know my opinion doesn't
count), but methinks you all really like Jan, or you wouldn't be teasing her so
much!!
If you didn't like her, you'd just ignore her comments,
just like everyone else in this world does when they don't care for someone,
they don't associate with them in any way...:>)
Rich
><< REPLY:
>
>JanDrew REGULARLY writes ......
> >>
>
>You know what methinks on this subject matter...(I know my opinion doesn't
>count), but methinks you all really like Jan, or you wouldn't be teasing her so
>much!!
>
>If you didn't like her, you'd just ignore her comments,
But Jan is giving potentially dangerous advice. Jan is using fear
mongering to suggest that amalgams can cause mercury poisoning and
that anyone who has unanswered health problems should consider having
the amalgams removed. Jan says this despite having a history that
quite clearly indicates that her exacerbation of symptoms of PN and
subsequent improvement immediately following removal of amalgams was
almost certainly due to psychologic factors.
>just like everyone else in this world does when they don't care for someone,
>they don't associate with them in any way...:>)
But ignoring someone who is fear mongering and giving dangerous advice
is NOT a good thing to do IMO.
Also I wonder how much you take the advice that you are giving:-))))