"Electric problem" [was Re: What are the symptoms of acute chlorine deficiency?]
Radium
groups.google.com/group/sci.life-extension/msg/d8c99135425b4323?
hl=en& :
> When you remove the chlorine are you going to remove the electrons on
> the chloride ion? If so the positive charge left behind will cause a
> serious electric problem.
Just what is this "electric problem"? What symptoms would result from
this problem? Any significant CNS [Central Nervous System] symptoms?
Seizures?
spa...@spam.heaven
Immediate dematerialisation! Kabooooom!!!!
jack
Radium
> Immediate dematerialisation! Kabooooom!!!!
No offense but would you please be more specific?
Radium
> Lightning would strike you. You would have had a very sizeable
> net positive charge. Once that had neutralized, then the NaOH
> that would form would be pretty toxic.
What if neutralization was somehow -- by some mysterious force --
prevented?
D. C. Sessions
An Earth-shattering "Kaboom!"
Seriously.
A 70 kg human body contains about 95 grams of chlorine in the
form of chloride ion. That's about 26000 coulombs charging a
body of less than 260 pF. Net result? About ten to the 14th
volts. 26000 coulombs at that voltage amounts to 1.3 times
ten to the eighteenth joules. A one-kiloton nuclear bomb is
4 times ten to the ninth joules, so you'd be looking at about
250 million kilotons of *KABOOM*
Like I say, "An earth-shattering KABOOM."
--
This message has been brought to you by Acme Corporation,
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Radium
> An Earth-shattering "Kaboom!"
>
> Seriously.
>
> A 70 kg human body contains about 95 grams of chlorine in the
> form of chloride ion. That's about 26000 coulombs charging a
> body of less than 260 pF. Net result? About ten to the 14th
> volts. 26000 coulombs at that voltage amounts to 1.3 times
> ten to the eighteenth joules. A one-kiloton nuclear bomb is
> 4 times ten to the ninth joules, so you'd be looking at about
> 250 million kilotons of *KABOOM*
>
> Like I say, "An earth-shattering KABOOM."
Hmm. I was expecting more neurophysiological symptoms. Such as
paralysis, involuntary movements, impaired vision/hearing, visual/
auditory hallucinations, impaired balance, dizziness, vertigo, memory
loss, false memories, distortion of existing memories, loss of
awareness, decreased level of consciousness, alteration in sense of
time, dissociative states, tinnitus and other interesting CNS symptoms.
D. C. Sessions
Well, yeah, but the question was "what if you could get rid
of the chloride ion and never mind balancing the charges."
So I answered the question.
--
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+--------------- D. C. Sessions <d...@lumbercartel.com> --------------+
spa...@spam.heaven
I was being flippant, sorry, Radium.
Look, there can be no such phenomenon as stripping the chloride ions
from the body. Theoretically you could replace the Cl- ions with some
other anion, but this would cause instantaneous breakdown of all the
life processes in the body. There are many ions that are essential for
the body's normal biochemistry and the body regulates these quite
tightly mainly by the kidneys. These include sodium, potassium,
calcium, magnesium, hydrogen among the cations and chloride,
phosphate, bicarbonate, hydroxyl, among the anions.
If you had a solution of sodium chloride in a glass of water, there is
no way (that I know of) to remove the chloride ions without removing
the sodium ions with them. The electrical attraction's just so strong.
You could pass a current through the solution and at the positive
electrode you would get some chlorine gas evolved, (at the negative
electrode you would get some hydrogen gas because hydrogen is less
reactive than sodium and so wants to revert to its elemental form more
than sodium does). This chlorine gas (elemental form) will be replaced
by the hydroxyl anions (OH-) left over from the water which is being
split by the electric current to form hydrogen at the negative
electrode. The solution will always remain electrically neutral
(positive and negative ions in balance) and what happens at each
electrode will be that the least reactive ion will be converted to the
elemental form.
Hope this is clear. If there is something you don't understand please
ask. No offence ever taken.
jack
spa...@spam.heaven
Those you list can be caused by minute perturbations in the body's
chemical balance. This removal of all the negative chloride ions is
gigantic in comparison. Sort of like asking what are the neurological
symptoms of being "sucked" into a black hole.
jack
Richard Schultz
: If you had a solution of sodium chloride in a glass of water, there is
: no way (that I know of) to remove the chloride ions without removing
: the sodium ions with them.
Adding silver nitrate will get most of the chloride ions and leave the
sodium ions behind.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and
if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
Mark Thorson
>
> In misc.health.alternative spa...@spam.heaven wrote:
>
> : If you had a solution of sodium chloride in a glass of water, there is
> : no way (that I know of) to remove the chloride ions without removing
> : the sodium ions with them.
>
> Adding silver nitrate will get most of the chloride ions and leave the
> sodium ions behind.
I think you're assuming he's not going to
drink it after removing the chloride ions.
spam...@spam.heaven
(Richard Schultz) wrote:
>In misc.health.alternative spa...@spam.heaven wrote:
>
>: If you had a solution of sodium chloride in a glass of water, there is
>: no way (that I know of) to remove the chloride ions without removing
>: the sodium ions with them.
>
>Adding silver nitrate will get most of the chloride ions and leave the
>sodium ions behind.
You are so right :=)
However, I was assuming that no replacement anion was being employed.
jack
ABBAS EL-TA'ALU
I keep saying that, whatever the mysterious force may be,
'Homeostasis' (though there is an extent) is always there to cover up.
Abbas El-Ta'alu.
Radium
>
> Seriously.
>
> A 70 kg human body contains about 95 grams of chlorine in the
> form of chloride ion. That's about 26000 coulombs charging a
> body of less than 260 pF. Net result? About ten to the 14th
> volts. 26000 coulombs at that voltage amounts to 1.3 times
> ten to the eighteenth joules. A one-kiloton nuclear bomb is
> 4 times ten to the ninth joules, so you'd be looking at about
> 250 million kilotons of *KABOOM*
>
> Like I say, "An earth-shattering KABOOM."
Thanks for answering. Sorry to bother you with more questions.
The "KABOOM" would occur if all the chloride ions were suddenly and
completely removed in a flash. What if the removal was smoother and
more gradual? A much slower and smoother decrease in chloride in the
body, in which it takes a week for the chloride content of the body to
reach a complete zero. What symptoms would occur during the week? What
would be the initial symptoms on day 1? How would they change each
day? Would any of the neurological symptoms I described, occur?
NOTE: Remember the mysterious anti-chloride power is doing the same
that as I described in 1st post and neutralization of the body's
positive charge [resulting from chloride loss] cannot occur. The only
difference is that, this time, the process is gradual. In a smooth
sine-wave-like manner the chloride decreases and in a week, it reaches
zero.
spam...@spam.heaven
As I have tried to demonstrate, there is no way you could remove the
chloride ions without doing anything else.
Yes, you could theoretically substitute another anion for the chloride
ions, and it would depend on the toxicity of this that would determine
the symptomes you suffered.
For instance, substituting hydroxyl ions (OH-) would upset the bodies
critical acid/alkaline balance (pH) so greatly that death would be
quick, unless remedial therapy was carried out (addition of HCl which
would be replacing the chloride ions you seem to want to get rid of.
If you replaced these Cl- ions with sulfate, nitrate, phosphate and so
on, you would get such catastrophic upset in the body's metabolism,
that you would die unless you reversed the procedure rather rapidly.
I guess the only way you would know for sure what the exact sympoms
were would be to carry out an experiment. Perhaps if you got a rat and
extracted much of the sodium chloride from it with a powerful
sali-diuretic, and then replaced electrolyte concentration with
another sodium salt, you might be able to monitor symptoms. But why on
Earth do you want to get rid of chloride ions? I am very attached to
mine, and wouldn't know what to do with myself if they left me :=)
jack
D. C. Sessions
26000 coulombs per week would be 43 mA. Probably not really
life-threatening.
On the other hand, you'd be ending up with 61 grams of metallic
sodium, potassium, etc. in your system. I think that's a bit
more than the safe limit.
Radium
> 26000 coulombs per week would be 43 mA. Probably not really
> life-threatening.
Would it cause any of the neurosymptoms I described?
> On the other hand, you'd be ending up with 61 grams of metallic
> sodium, potassium, etc. in your system. I think that's a bit
> more than the safe limit.
How would a lack of chloride cause an increase in those metals in the
body?
Radium
alt.support.diet, sci.chem, misc.health.alternative
F--king google does not automatically send replies newsgroups included
in the headers that the message was originally-crossposted to. If I
reply to a cross-posted message, google only sends the reply to the
1st NG listed in the cross-post.
F--k google. Google deserves to have their @$$holes probed by good-
hearted hackers.
WTF did google change its groups format again. They changed it in
spring of 2005, and now they change it again. The difference is, now
it is less convenient because if I am reply to a cross-post and want
my reply crossposted, I have to remember to insert the rest of the NGs
manually. Sick f--ks.
Google deserves to burn in hell. Google deserves to be molested,
raped, tortured, burned, mutilated, and otherwise punished -- to
eternity. Die google. Die. I want my Deja back.
Someone needs scorch google's circuits with oxyacetylene flames. Send
those jerks to the slums, where they belong.
On Feb 7, 8:18 pm, "D. C. Sessions" <d...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
> 26000 coulombs per week would be 43 mA. Probably not really
> life-threatening.
Would it cause any of the neurosymptoms I described?
> On the other hand, you'd be ending up with 61 grams of metallic
> sodium, potassium, etc. in your system. I think that's a bit
> more than the safe limit.
How would a lack of chloride cause an increase in those metals in the
body?
D. C. Sessions
> On Feb 7, 8:18 pm, "D. C. Sessions" <d...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
>
>> 26000 coulombs per week would be 43 mA. Probably not really
>> life-threatening.
>
> Would it cause any of the neurosymptoms I described?
A nuclear-grade explosion on that order would kinda make
neurosymptoms moot, wouldn't you say?
>> On the other hand, you'd be ending up with 61 grams of metallic
>> sodium, potassium, etc. in your system. I think that's a bit
>> more than the safe limit.
>
> How would a lack of chloride cause an increase in those metals in the
> body?
The elements are there, they're just in the form of free ions
balanced by chloride ions. Remove the chloride (presumably
without taking the electrons with them) and what's left is
elemental sodium, potassium, etc. Quite reactive now that
the chloride is gone.
Dude, we're doing fantasy here. No matter how you slice it,
chlorine is essential to life. Deal with the fact.
Radium
> Remove the chloride (presumably
> without taking the electrons with them) and what's left is
> elemental sodium, potassium, etc.
What if the chloride and their electrons are removed? This would keep
the Na and K positively-charged, right?
If this is done in a smooth manner, I doubt there will be any
explosion [from sudden electrical changes]. Also, since the Na and K
remain positively-charged, there won't possess the dangers associated
with elemental Na and K. Do I guess right? If so, what symptoms would
occur in my too-hypothetical-to-be-true situation?
Octa Ex
in cyberspace:
What would happen is that the voltage on the body would rise, hair
would stand on end. Sparks would erupt from all the pointy bits into
the surrounding air, and that would suck the electrons back into the
body. If you tried to stop sparks, by doing this in a hard vacuum,
you could expect positive ions to be radiated from pointy bits on the
body - eg H3O+ Na+. Apart from suffocation there will likely be burns
where the ions are emmitted.
How much voltage can a human body stand?
X X
X
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