Making sense of basic Japanese Expression
ax
お早う
今日は
お帰りなさい
ただいま
but they never tell you the origin and to make sense of it's literal
meaning.
They just give you a pair expression in your language. I was always
unhappy when
I started learning japanese due to lack of explanation however trivial
it might seem.
Now slowly I am getting to make sense of them, and see a new light in
these expressions.
I think お早う actually shorted from お早うです or
お早う御座います, which literally means It's morning. It's
neither good nor bad in Japanese. It's just morning has broken.
I heard an explanation on TV that says 今日は comes from a full
expression of 今日はいい天気ですね。 The rest after
今日はhas been omitted because it has become a set expression.
お帰りなさい is pretty plain, yet a bit hard for me to
understand two years ago. Now that I know what is 尊敬語,
お帰りなさい just makes sense because it is suggesting that
someone you respect has come home.
ただいま、I guess means just now, but the complete sentence should
be 只今着きました or 只今帰りましたor something which
has been omitted as it's understood. Japanese always leave a lot of
things in the air aka 宙ぶらりん.
I heard something in the store like
少々お待ちくださいませ。I guess something has been taken
out from this, probably a します as in the
謙譲語 お待たせします。 Perhaps native speaker muchan can
clarify this.
ax
Travers Naran
> Basic Japanese phrasebook usually teaches you stuff like
> お早う
> 今日は
> お帰りなさい
> ただいま
> but they never tell you the origin and to make sense of it's literal
> meaning.
Mangajin's Basic Japanese does a very good job of exploring the literal
meaning and how the set phrases morph to cover various situations.
E.g., sumimasen.
> I think お早う actually shorted from お早うです or
> お早う御座います, which literally means It's morning.
Worse: it's literally saying "It's early!"
> I heard something in the store like
> 少々お待ちくださいませ。I guess something has been taken
> out from this, probably a します as in the
> 謙譲語 お待たせします。 Perhaps native speaker muchan can
> clarify this.
I'm not a native speaker, but I impersonate one at parties.
くださいませ is (I think) short for くださいませんか。 The お待ち is
simply a noun which means waiting or waiting time. So 少々お待ち means
waiting a little bit, and the full direct sentence is "Please, won't you
give me waiting for a short time?"
My 2 yen's worth. :-)
Brian Baker
> くださいませ is (I think) short for くださいませんか。
Kudasaimase is the command form of kudasaimasu. It isn't short for anything.
-Brian Baker
Brian
Travers Naran のメッセージ:
Not native, except by marriage, if that counts.
It's the imperitive form of the ます verb ending. So it's just a
polite way of saying 'wait a minute'. The ます ending comes from the
verb meaning 'to exist', so the imperitive forms in the normal way,
turning the final u into an e. You could say 'go!' as 行け,
行きな, 行きなさい or 行きませ, in increasing levels of
politeness. The なさい ending comes from the imperitive form of
the verb なさる, and な is just a colloquial short form..
Actually, ax, you should cut down on your kanji a bit. I used to do the
same, writing every thing that could be written in kanji that way.
While it's not strictly speaking incorrect, and wouldn't look out of
place in a Soseki novel, it is not how modern Japanese is written.
Also, 今日は would be read as きょうは by most people.
ax
I really should follow advice on cutting down the Kanji, however I
couldn't help it sometimes because they are more legible than kana to
me. But since I write not for myself, I'd better follow your advice.
>Kudasaimase is the command form of kudasaimasu. It isn't short for anything.
thanks for enlightenment. would you happen to know more expression with
mase?
I heard that it's mostly female speech. Is that right?
ax
Brian
>>Kudasaimase is the command form of kudasaimasu. It isn't short for anything.
>
>thanks for enlightenment. would you happen to know more expression with
>mase?
>I heard that it's mostly female speech. Is that right?
>
>ax
It's just polite. Strickly speaking, you can use it with any verb, but
it tends to only be used with kudasaru. After all, if you're giving an
order, there's no point in being polite over it.
Think of kudasaimase as a polite way of saying kudasai, which itself is
the imperative of kudasaru.
It isn't really used very much at all, and unless you're looking for
work in a supermarket I shouldn't worry about it. These days it's only
used for effect. Looking in google, most of the hits are for mase+u,
which is the old kana form of mashou, or mase+n. Very few hits for a
pure mase.
Louise Bremner
> >Kudasaimase is the command form of kudasaimasu. It isn't short for anything.
> thanks for enlightenment. would you happen to know more expression with
> mase?
Irasshaimase!
> I heard that it's mostly female speech. Is that right?
Depends on context, I believe. The greeters inside stores and
restaurants who shout "Irasshaimase!" at anything that moves are not
always female....
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
j...@csse.monash.edu.au
>Depends on context, I believe. The greeters inside stores and
>restaurants who shout "Irasshaimase!" at anything that moves are not
>always female....
The el cheapo supermarket I used in Arakawa had a recorded message
system which blared out "Irasshaimase!" whenever anyone came in the
入口 and "Arigatougozaimashita!" whenever anyone went out the 出口.
Both operated independently, and would restart if triggered mid-blare.
Peak hour on Saturday mornings was a non-stop overlay of
"Ira-I-Irassha-Ira..." and "Ariga-A-Arigato-Ariga-Ari....."
--
Jim Breen http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Clayton School of Information Technology,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
ax
If you go to a small restaurant, while you want to have a good and
perhaps private conversation with someone, can you imagine the
waitressses keep shouting irrasshai! shai! shai! all the time? I know
they love manners, but most of them are just dictated and are not
coming from the heart. It's just plain 建前。
ax
tonygonz
> and are not coming from the heart. It's just plain 建前。
So you never give an insincere smile, or ask someone how they're doing
when you don't really care, or answer that you're "fine" when you
really aren't, or hold the door for someone else when you're in a hurry
but they probably aren't, or say "bless you" when someone sneezes, or
leave a tip for mediocre service, or say that an ugly baby is cute, or
shake hands with someone you have a negative impression of, or open a
letter with "Dear" when the person you're writing to isn't dear to you,
or close a letter with "Sincerely," even when you haven't sincerely
spoken your mind, or.......?
People who act *solely* "from the heart" tend to be antisocial jerks.
Manners are important. Even those that are different from what we grew
up with.
==================================
Tony Gonzalez
Creative Commons licensed translations of Japanese fiction--
http://tonygonz.blogspot.com/
ax
slowly become accustomed to their culture. I also kiss the boss ass at
work with the art of 胡麻すり、and I also to some extent give in
to the 建前 practice. Afterall, in Rome you do what Romans, right.
I might be an antisocial jerks as you discribed. But my earlier post
was just describing how being too polite can be impolite, and of course
chanting a loud irrashaai while throwing one's face away from the
御客さん is simply うるさい。
ax
Dan Rempel
> Louise Bremner <trap_for_...@yahoo.com> dixit:
>
>
>>Depends on context, I believe. The greeters inside stores and
>>restaurants who shout "Irasshaimase!" at anything that moves are not
>>always female....
>
>
> The el cheapo supermarket I used in Arakawa had a recorded message
> system which blared out "Irasshaimase!" whenever anyone came in the
> 入口 and "Arigatougozaimashita!" whenever anyone went out the 出口.
> Both operated independently, and would restart if triggered mid-blare.
> Peak hour on Saturday mornings was a non-stop overlay of
> "Ira-I-Irassha-Ira..." and "Ariga-A-Arigato-Ariga-Ari....."
That brings back memories...
Dan
--
"What's the use of a good quotation if you can't change it?"
-- Dr. Who
ax
It's an independent word or is it derived from 済む？
since すむ means to complete, すみませんwould literally means
not complete.
how come it comes to mean sorry with some nuance of gratitude these
days?
ax
ax
ax
Cindy
> does さすが means 指すが？ thumbs up?
文脈が無ければ答えてあげないよ。私らは百科事典じゃないんだから。
ax
そいえば、「さすが新智さんに答えて頂けますでしょうか」が文脈になりますかな。
よろしくお願いします。
豚
Cindy
あなたの求めている「さすが」がどのさすがかなんとなく分ってきた感じです
が、「流石」のさすがなのかしら？
さすが 0 【《流石》】
（副）
(1)（先行の内容を認めながらも、それと矛盾することをいうのに用いて）そう
はいうもののやはり。とはいうもののしかし。
「離れていても、―心は通じている」
(2)（以前から考えられていた内容を肯定し強調するために用いて）予想どおり
に。期待にたがわず。
「―千両役者だ」
(3)（「さすがの…も」の形で）定評のある。あれほどの。さしもの。
「―の名選手も年齢には勝てない」
（形動ナリ）
先行の内容をそのまま肯定するわけにはいかない状態を表す。そうもいかない。
そうとばかりいえない。
「あはじともいはざりける女の、―なりける（＝ソウカトイッテ会ウワケデモナ
イ女）がもとにいひやりける/伊勢 25」「心憂しと思へど、かく思し出でたるも
―にて（＝困ッタトハイッテモ思イ出シテクレタノモウレシクテ）/源氏（夕顔）」
〔副詞「さ」、サ変動詞「ず」、接続助詞「がに」が熟合した「さすがに」から
「に」が脱落したもの。「さすがに」は平安時代以後、上代語「しかすがに」に
とってかわったもので、本来副詞であるが、「に」を活用語尾として形容動詞と
しても用いられるとともに、「に」を脱落することもあった。(1)が原義である
が、中世以降(2)の意でも用いられた。「流石」は中世以降の当て字で、晋の孫
楚の「枕流漱石」についての故事を、さすがにうまいこじつけだとしたところか
らといわれる〕→しかすがに
Kouji Ueshiba
news:6p-dnY2mg6VDU_HZ...@comcast.com...
これ、手で打ったの？ さーすが、context を要求しただけある。
> 〔副詞「さ」、サ変動詞「ず」、接続助詞「がに」が熟合した「さすがに」から
「ず」は「す」ね。
上 柴 公 二
Cindy
> "Cindy" <cindy1...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:6p-dnY2mg6VDU_HZ...@comcast.com...
>
> これ、手で打ったの？ さーすが、context を要求しただけある。
↑
この使い方に注目！
はい、手でコピー＆ペーストしました。
>> 〔副詞「さ」、サ変動詞「ず」、接続助詞「がに」が熟合した「さすがに」から
>
>
> 「ず」は「す」ね。
E辞書は間違いが多いですねえ。
Bart Mathias
> ax wrote:
>
>>Basic Japanese phrasebook usually teaches you stuff like
>>お早う
>>今日は
>>お帰りなさい
>>ただいま
>>but they never tell you the origin and to make sense of it's literal
>>meaning.
>
>
> Mangajin's Basic Japanese does a very good job of exploring the literal
> meaning and how the set phrases morph to cover various situations.
> E.g., sumimasen.
>
>
>>I think お早う actually shorted from お早うです or
>>お早う御座います, which literally means It's morning.
>
>
> Worse: it's literally saying "It's early!"
Not originally quite that bad. 御座あり ("Your seat is [wherever]"?)
used to be honorific for "You are here/there, M'lord," and equivalent to
more modern いらっしゃる. So お早う御座います probably originally
meant "You are early," with perhaps a nuance of flattery that such an
important person would deign to be on time.
Bart
ax
記憶術のため「指すが」 - 親指を指して「thumbs
up」の意味をもつ。
あるいは
「さぁ」 - Japanese pause particle
「す」 - 「すごいです」の省略
「が」 - が助詞
only for mnemonics perhaps.
ax
Cindy
どうぞご自由になさいませ
Kouji Ueshiba
news:wP6dnSw_S5P...@hawaiiantel.net...
>
> Not originally quite that bad. 御座あり ("Your seat is [wherever]"?)
> used to be honorific for "You are here/there, M'lord," and equivalent to
> more modern いらっしゃる. So お早う御座います probably originally
> meant "You are early," with perhaps a nuance of flattery that such an
> important person would deign to be on time.
そうかもしれませんが、『日本国語大辞典（精選版）』によれば、
「ござる」については、天草版・伊曾保（イソップ）物語（１５９３）に
既に尊敬語から丁寧語へ変化している例があり、
「ワレハ、コノ イワレヲ ワキマエテgozaru」
その一方、挨拶の「お早う」の例は、浄瑠璃『最明寺殿百人上臈』（１６９９）の
「いずれもこれはお早ふと・・・」
という、「ござり（い）ます」を伴っていない形をを挙げているだけですので、
この二つの言葉を切り離して考えていい、
つまり、「お早う」という形がまずあり、それを丁寧に言ったのが
「お早うござり（い）ます」であり、
「お早う」は「お早うござり（い）ます」の省略形と考えなくてもいい
のかもしれません。
上 柴 公 二
chance
"ax" <anto...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147966871.1...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Way back here, I once wrote about this question.
Quote:
'Sumimasen' is literally 'incomplete'.
'Incomplete' for what?
Whatever.
If you did anything, you may think
there might be a possibility
that there is still a room to have done more,
although you might have exhausted everything
you could do.
Hence, not complete.
For example, if you bumped into someone
on the street unwittingly, you might say,
'Excuse me'. Excuse me for what?
What may be you might have been more watchful
not to have bumped into him.
Likewise, you can say 'sumimasen'
in the same situation. 'Sumimasen' for what?
If you were careful not to bump into someone,
you need not be 'suman'. If anything, 'sumu',
that is, you did what you must have done.
If not, that is 'sumimasen', "Sorry. I wish
I could have done more.'
Aside, the 'sumimasen' is the 'essence'
of the Japanese ethos along with 'sunao'.