Backwards Swastika Kanji
Saint Dead Air
My friend sent me a guidebook on Kyoto and Nara for my trip next year, and
on every map there are strange symbols that show up in numerous places --
they look like backwards swastikas. Also, I recently purchased the Obunsha
Learner's Kogo Jiten (Japanese - Japanese), and these backwards swastikas
show up in there, also. Does anyone know what they are symbols for? Are
they just map symbols, like airplanes (for airports), teepees (for
campgrounds), picnic tables (for rest areas), etc.? Or do they mean
something else?
Also, to people who emailed me from this group since July, I apologize for
not responding, my main email account (Earthlink) was shut down because
someone Joe-jobbed me & hijacked it as a spammer's account. I think it was
Bart and Annie, but it was someone else, too. ごめん なさい。
よろしく お願い します。
ロブチャン
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ki no Tomonori
In the peaceful light
Of the ever-shining sun
In the days of spring,
Why do the cherry's
new-blown blooms
Scatter like restless thoughts?
http://home.earthlink.net/~rtoad
Anthony J. Bryant
> My friend sent me a guidebook on Kyoto and Nara for my trip next year, and
> on every map there are strange symbols that show up in numerous places --
> they look like backwards swastikas. Also, I recently purchased the Obunsha
> Learner's Kogo Jiten (Japanese - Japanese), and these backwards swastikas
> show up in there, also. Does anyone know what they are symbols for? Are
> they just map symbols, like airplanes (for airports), teepees (for
> campgrounds), picnic tables (for rest areas), etc.? Or do they mean
> something else?
>
On maps, a torii stands for a shrine (Shinto), a cross for a church, and a
swastika for a temple (Buddhist).
Tony
Dave Fossett
And of course they are not "backwards" either. It was the Nazi symbol that
was backwards and rotated.
--
Dave Fossett
Saitama, JAPAN
Doug Wickstrom
<dajf@REMOVE_THISmm.neweb.ne.jp> excited the ether to say:
>And of course they are not "backwards" either. It was the Nazi symbol that
>was backwards and rotated.
No, it was a different symbol entirely, derived from the sign for
the hammer of Thor.
--
Doug Wickstrom
I have a fatal disease. I'm alive.
Anthony J. Bryant
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2000 09:30:26 +0900, "Dave Fossett"
> <dajf@REMOVE_THISmm.neweb.ne.jp> excited the ether to say:
>
> >And of course they are not "backwards" either. It was the Nazi symbol that
> >was backwards and rotated.
>
> No, it was a different symbol entirely, derived from the sign for
> the hammer of Thor.
Could you cite a source for your singularly astounding pronouncement?
(Do you even know what a Thor's hammer looks like?)
Tony
Doug Wickstrom
<ajbr...@indiana.edu> excited the ether to say:
>Doug Wickstrom wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 24 Sep 2000 09:30:26 +0900, "Dave Fossett"
>> <dajf@REMOVE_THISmm.neweb.ne.jp> excited the ether to say:
>>
>> >And of course they are not "backwards" either. It was the Nazi symbol that
>> >was backwards and rotated.
>>
>> No, it was a different symbol entirely, derived from the sign for
>> the hammer of Thor.
>
>Could you cite a source for your singularly astounding pronouncement?
_Gods and Myths of Northern Europe_, H.R. Ellis Davidson, London,
1964
>(Do you even know what a Thor's hammer looks like?)
Very well, actually. They exist in a wide variety of designs,
some of which had hooked arms. A fair number of my friends wear
the more prosaic, crucifix-like versions.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Benjamin Franklin
Jani PATOKALLIO
> Anthony J. Bryant wrote...
> > On maps, a torii stands for a shrine (Shinto), a cross for a church, and a
> > swastika for a temple (Buddhist).
>
> And of course they are not "backwards" either. It was the Nazi symbol that
> was backwards and rotated.
And of course this is an urban legend. The swastika is an ancient
symbol of good luck, which originated in India and was rapidly adopted
by
Buddhism as a symbol for the footprints of the Buddha, and also the
Christian world as well as a variant of the cross. The right-hand
(clockwise)
swastika is a solar symbol, the left-hand (counterclockwise) swastika
denotes the night and is consequently linked to magic, the cult of Kali,
etc.
Nazi iconography was originally rather confused, but they eventually
standardized on the right-handed variant, albeit often rotated an
extra 45 degrees. After they lost the war, the few people that still
used the swastika switched over to the left-handed version, which is
what you'll find on Japanese maps today. If you actually track down
some pre-1945 Buddhist swastika carvings (etc) though, you will find
most of them to be right-handed.
Incidentally, the swastika is called "manji" in Japanese.
ObURL:
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/7/0,5716,72437+1+70603,00.html
Cheers,
--
Jani PATOKALLIO / jpat...@iki.fi / +81 90 7722 3557
Sanpo Laboratory, Mechano-Informatics Dept., University of Tokyo
ヤニ・パトカリオ / ja...@sanpo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp / 090 7722 3557
東京大学、工学系研究科、機械情報工学科、算法設計研究室
Doug Wickstrom
<jpat...@iki.fi> excited the ether to say:
>Dave Fossett wrote:
>> Anthony J. Bryant wrote...
>> > On maps, a torii stands for a shrine (Shinto), a cross for a church, and a
>> > swastika for a temple (Buddhist).
>>
>> And of course they are not "backwards" either. It was the Nazi symbol that
>> was backwards and rotated.
>
>And of course this is an urban legend. The swastika is an ancient
>symbol of good luck, which originated in India and was rapidly adopted
>by
>Buddhism as a symbol for the footprints of the Buddha, and also the
>Christian world as well as a variant of the cross. The right-hand
>(clockwise)
>swastika is a solar symbol, the left-hand (counterclockwise) swastika
>denotes the night and is consequently linked to magic, the cult of Kali,
>etc.
It actually developed independently in many parts of the world,
unless you want to postulate a pre-Columbian connection between
Buddhism and North American native religions.
It's use in Northern Europe as early as the 1st c. AD is well
documented, and the association was with the sky gods
Thunor/Tiwaz, and eventually with Thor. There is no evidence of
Buddhist influence in Northern Europe at that time, and these
were certainly pre-Christian usages. Most of the surviving
images are on swords, which also serves to associate the swastika
with Thunor/Tiwaz/Thor, in his/their war god personae.
>Nazi iconography was originally rather confused, but they eventually
>standardized on the right-handed variant, albeit often rotated an
>extra 45 degrees. After they lost the war, the few people that still
>used the swastika switched over to the left-handed version, which is
>what you'll find on Japanese maps today. If you actually track down
>some pre-1945 Buddhist swastika carvings (etc) though, you will find
>most of them to be right-handed.
Excepting, of course, all those left-handed manji carved on
temples several centuries ago.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Never proclaim yourself a philosopher, nor make much talk among the ignorant
about your principles, but show them by actions." --Epictetus
Sean Holland
nims...@uswest.not wrote on 9/25/00 5:09 PM:
> It actually developed independently in many parts of the world,
> unless you want to postulate a pre-Columbian connection between
> Buddhism and North American native religions.
>
> It's use in Northern Europe as early as the 1st c. AD is well
> documented, and the association was with the sky gods
> Thunor/Tiwaz, and eventually with Thor. There is no evidence of
> Buddhist influence in Northern Europe at that time, and these
> were certainly pre-Christian usages. Most of the surviving
> images are on swords, which also serves to associate the swastika
> with Thunor/Tiwaz/Thor, in his/their war god personae.
>
Ok, there's those Nazi idiots who went on about "Aryans", and then there's
the swastika as it appears in India (Aryans, dontcha know?), and Gotama was
an Indian (well, born in what is now Nepal, but what the hey?), so I dunno
if you have to go for the independent development when it comes to European
and Indo and further Eastern swastikas. The North American deal is another
matter.
Louise Bremner
> If you actually track down some pre-1945 Buddhist swastika carvings (etc)
> though, you will find most of them to be right-handed.
Most of the ones I've seen use both swastikas, alternating in various
abstract patterns. If you watch *jidai geki*, you can often see one of
them on the paper doors behind the magistrate in court scenes. (The same
pattern sometimes appears woven into kimono fabric, but that's more
difficult to spot.)
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
Note that my Yahoo address is a spam-bucket
Doug Wickstrom
<seho...@islandnet.com> excited the ether to say:
>Ok, there's those Nazi idiots who went on about "Aryans", and then there's
>the swastika as it appears in India (Aryans, dontcha know?), and Gotama was
>an Indian (well, born in what is now Nepal, but what the hey?), so I dunno
>if you have to go for the independent development when it comes to European
>and Indo and further Eastern swastikas. The North American deal is another
>matter.
There are no known swastikas in Europe before the 1st c. AD.
OTOH, there isn't much of anything that survives in Northern
Europe before the 1st c. AD.
Lots of what the Nazis claimed about proto-Germans was based on
bad scholarship. The bit about Wodan being the supreme god of
the Aryans was part of it. Wodan appears to have supplanted
Tiwaz by the 5th c. AD, and in any event wasn't a thunderer.
Tiwaz was the Germanic equivalent _and_ name cognate to Zeus.
Thunor appears to have taken over from Tiwaz, with most of the
same attributes _except_ for being the chief god.
It would have been nice if the worshippers of the Aesir and Vanir
had bothered to write down what they really believed and how they
did it. Unfortunately, all they left us was some fragmentary
poetry to be interpreted by their Christian supplanters, some of
whom were better observers than others, some of whom were better
writers than others. Snorri tells a really rousing story, but
seems to have gotten key aspects wrong, confused, or
misunderstood; he was writing quite late, and there was a lot of
contradictory material to begin with. Some of this stuff was,
after all, mere entertainment. It's as if some future historian
were to try to interpret Christianity, Judaism, and the early
Roman Empire all three through _Ben Hur_, and _The Robe_, with
some sketchy folk practices thrown in that may or may not have
had any religious significance.
Saint Dead Air
"Doug Wickstrom" <nims...@uswest.not> wrote in message
news:f3mtss0qi5kh1vcav...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2000 16:35:40 -0600, "Anthony J. Bryant"
> <ajbr...@indiana.edu> excited the ether to say:
>
> >Doug Wickstrom wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 24 Sep 2000 09:30:26 +0900, "Dave Fossett"
> >>
> >> >And of course they are not "backwards" either. It was the Nazi symbol
that
> >> >was backwards and rotated.
> >>
> >> the hammer of Thor.
Actually, Swastikas have been found in Grecian and Roman ruins, as well as
Native American artifacts that far predate the Hammer of Thor. It has been
used as a good luck charm. The Hindus have a good -- Rasheda -- who is
depicted as a four-armed elephant, and its symbol is the Swastika. In the
1800s through the early 1900s, US "Good Luck" coins bore the Swastika, as
well as a horseshoe, a four leaf clover, and various other good-luck
symbols. The swastika has also shown up on Chinese coins dating as far back
as 315. The Celts used the "Briyid Cross" for good luck. The "Briyid
Cross" being the Swastika. And, of course, they are also numerous in
Japanese temples. I remember seeing one in a temple in Asakusa when I was a
little child, and asking my father about it. His reply was "only the Nazis
used it for bad, everyone else used it for good."
If you're talking about the Nazi Swastika, theory is it was created by
superimposing two sigels, one rotated. The sigel is a Germanic rune which
has a similar sound to the English "S."
> >(Do you even know what a Thor's hammer looks like?)
>
> Very well, actually. They exist in a wide variety of designs,
> some of which had hooked arms. A fair number of my friends wear
> the more prosaic, crucifix-like versions.
Otherwise known as the "Nordic Cross," which is the symbol of the American
Nazi Party.
Sean Holland
at maxom...@aol.com wrote on 9/26/00 3:02 AM:
>> If you're talking about the Nazi Swastika, theory is it was created by
>> superimposing two sigels, one rotated. The sigel is a Germanic rune which
>> has a similar sound to the English "S."
>
> Suwulo in the Ogham rune set, isn't it?
>
> - Max (Hohoemi no Bakudan)
I should have known you'd be one of those kids. I had a couple of students a
few years back who, in addition to doing very well in Japanese and French,
had taught themselves runes, Tolkien's Elvish and Klingon; they always used
my classroom at lunch and had this runic or Klingon gibberish written all
over the blackboards. I said to them "If you kids put the same effort into
math and science you'd get straight A's." They responded, "We do get
straight A's." Duh.
It was one of those kids who, when I demonstrated the connection between the
English, French and Japanese names for days of the week, declared "This
rocks, sensei." Getting that response every couple of years makes teaching
worthwhile.
Saint Dead Air
"Hohoemi no Bakudan" <maxom...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000926060206...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
> >If you're talking about the Nazi Swastika, theory is it was created by
> >superimposing two sigels, one rotated. The sigel is a Germanic rune
which
> >has a similar sound to the English "S."
>
> Suwulo in the Ogham rune set, isn't it?
Ogham is a set of vertical and horizontal lines representing sounds. Each
character is named after a tree, and their name also represents what sound
it makes. For example "beithe" is "b," and its tree is the birch; "fearn"
is "f," and it stands for the alder tree, "huathe" is "h" and it stands for
the whitethorn/hawthorn tree, and so forth. There are 25 characters, but
the last 5 were added at a much later time, as they are completely
inconsistent with the rest of the alphabet. The actual usage of Ogham is
unknown, some theorize that is was used by the Celts to warn when the Romans
were coming. It was also called "the poet's language," as it was extremely
cryptic and symbolic. EX: "li sula" = "delight of eye" = beauty; "Uaraib
abdaid" = "in cold dwellings" = death; "feocus foltchain" = "faded trunk and
fair hair" = age; "li n'aimbi" = "hue of the lifeless" = death, and so
forth.
The Cad Goddeu is a set of runes, but I really don't know a whole lot about
this method of writing.
The Ogham information I got from the books "Taliesin: Shamanism and the
Bardic Mysteries in Northern Britain and Ireland" by John Matthews, and "The
Way of the Celtic Shaman," also by John Matthews.
Now to make this post Japanese-related so that Mr. Bullock doesn't freak
out:
One of the Ogham characters looks like the Katakana "to," another like the
Katakana "no," 3 of them look like "ichi ni san," and one looks like the
Katakana "me." Are they related? No. Is someone going to write a 200 page
dissertation on the similarities between Ogham script and Katakana? Not at
all. Does anyone care? Probably not. I just wanted to add some on-topic
info to this post.