Does dry ice fog hurt electronics?
Richard Steven Walz
David Goldwire <dave...@intruder.com> wrote:
>Hi there,
>
>My company is putting together a very flashy data center as part of a
>new building we're setting up. The data cetner has lots of fun
>halogen spotlights on servers, walls of blinking lights, a decorative
>raised floor (not functional at all), and other showy pointless
>nonsense intended to make a bunch of dull-looking servers and network
>equipment look impressive. We're having an opening ceremony where we intend
>to wow some people by escorting them by the data center, and I had
>an idea that I think would add the ultimate corny touch -- put dry
>ice in the corners of the room to get fog on the floor, with the raised
>floor in the center of the room protruding from it. My question is
>this:
>
>Will the fog from dry ice hurt electronics? Specifically computers
>and network equipment like routers and hubs? Any insight would be
>helpful. Especially e-mail replies, as I don't usually participate
>in this news group.
> Thanks,
> David Goldwire
> dave...@intruder.com
> Systems Administrator
> Computer Intrusion Specialists
--------------------------------------------
Generally, CO2 gas shouldn't, but note that dry ice fog is produced by
reacting dry ice with warm water, and the water in the air also
condenses and forms literally a carbonous "acid rain", of carbonous
acid, also known as the "Pepsi-Cola syndrome" in electronics!! Now if
all your copper is masked, there shouldn't be much trouble, as the CO2
will dissipate after, but the solder is ALSO subject to this! Now I
have SEEN Coca-Cola eat the traces right OFF two parallel stages of an
amplifier, when someone had spilled a big splash of it into the grill
of a unit. I had to actually rebuild solid wire on the board and guess
at where the traces had been! Luckily it all worked, but I know now
that it isn't wise! If you do this, I hope it's a one time event, and
not an ongoing display, or you might be in trouble!
-Steve Walz rst...@armory.com
Rob Barris
Goldwire) wrote:
> Will the fog from dry ice hurt electronics? Specifically computers
> and network equipment like routers and hubs? Any insight would be
> helpful. Especially e-mail replies, as I don't usually participate
> in this news group.
The "fog" is water, with a fair amount of dissolved CO-2. I think it is
mildly acidic (like cola!). The bubbles of the CO-2 subliming under water
carry the water into the air. (Puts on helmet and prepares to be corrected
by net.chemistry.experts).
That said, I used to while away the wee hours hacking in my dorm room with
a fog bucket set up in the corner to enhance the mad scientist effect. My
Apple II survived, but it was up on my desk and the fog never got above my
knees.
Rob Barris
Quicksilver Software Inc.
rba...@quicksilver.com
* Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer *
John Nagle
>My company is putting together a very flashy data center as part of a
>new building we're setting up. The data cetner has lots of fun
>halogen spotlights on servers, walls of blinking lights, a decorative
>raised floor (not functional at all), and other showy pointless
>nonsense intended to make a bunch of dull-looking servers and network
>equipment look impressive. We're having an opening ceremony where we intend
>to wow some people by escorting them by the data center, and I had
>an idea that I think would add the ultimate corny touch -- put dry
>ice in the corners of the room to get fog on the floor, with the raised
>floor in the center of the room protruding from it. My question is
>this:
"Walls of blinking lights"....
Dry ice fog is cold CO2 and water condensed out of the air.
CO2-related risks include thermal shock. This is sometimes a problem if
you use a CO2 fire extingisher on equipment, but it's unlikely to be
a problem with dry ice fog. Cold CO2 will condense water out of the air,
(that's what the "fog" you see actually is) so there's the possiblity of
condensing water on equipment. Finally, CO2 is harmful to people, and
this is a real risk in enclosed spaces. Remember, it's much heavier than
air, and will concentrate at floor level without ventilation.
The NIOSH chemical hazard tables allow 5000 parts per million (0.5%)
for continous exposure, and 50,000 parts per million (5%) is listed
as immediately dangerous to health. It's hard to reach those concentrations
with dry ice in a big space like a theater, but in a small one...
An oxygen mask and CO2 detector are indicated when you're trying to figure
out how much to use.
Also, photoelectric-type smoke detectors may trip on dry-ice fog.
John Nagle
Mike Loving
: condensing water on equipment. Finally, CO2 is harmful to people, and
: this is a real risk in enclosed spaces. Remember, it's much heavier than
: air, and will concentrate at floor level without ventilation.
: The NIOSH chemical hazard tables allow 5000 parts per million (0.5%)
: for continous exposure, and 50,000 parts per million (5%) is listed
: as immediately dangerous to health. It's hard to reach those concentrations
: with dry ice in a big space like a theater, but in a small one...
: An oxygen mask and CO2 detector are indicated when you're trying to figure
: out how much to use.
This sounds really fishy, are you sure you are not confusing CO2 with CO?
I mean I exhale lots of CO2, everyday. I would think that CO2 would be about
as harmful as nitrogen i.e. "Does not support life" would be the warning
lable.
Mike
Michael Joseph Lorello
If you do it, could you take some pictures and post them? I am curious to
see if it is as funny looking as you said it would be.
Thanks
/-\
\-/ / ^/ ^/ /\
/ / / o //
/ / / / //-/ /| /
/ / /__/\_// \__X__/
****************************************************
* Michael Lorello *
* Short, Italian, and PROUD OF IT! *
* "Ehh - You got a problem wit dat?" *
* *
* E-Mail: lor...@rpi.edu *
* WWW: http://www.rpi.edu/~lorelm *
****************************************************
ambe...@actcom.co.il
In article <43pqju$o...@news.scruz.net>, <dave...@intruder.com> writes:
>
> *snip*
>
>
> Will the fog from dry ice hurt electronics? Specifically computers
> and network equipment like routers and hubs? Any insight would be
> helpful. Especially e-mail replies, as I don't usually participate
> in this news group.
>
> David Goldwire
> dave...@intruder.com
>
> Systems Administrator
> Computer Intrusion Specialists
Dry ice is nothing more than carbon dioxide and that should not harm anything.
It may however increase the humidity in the area (if you plan on dropping the
dry ice into water) and that could perhaps upset some equipment.
Robert Jensen
lov...@flamingo.cs.ucla.edu writes:
>This sounds really fishy, are you sure you are not confusing CO2 with CO?
>I mean I exhale lots of CO2, everyday. I would think that CO2 would be
about
>as harmful as nitrogen i.e. "Does not support life" would be the warning
>lable.
>
>Mike
I know that this is sci.electronics, but it would be dangerous to brush
off safety issues. Nitrogen is generally unreactive and you can tolerate
breathing an atmosphere composed of 80% of it. CO2 binds very well to
hemoglobin. It binds better than O2. Not as well as CO, though. If it
didn't bind to hemoglobin, it wouldn't be removed from your cells.
You can suffocate in a 20% oxygen atmosphere, with only a few percent of
CO2. The guys on Apollo 13 were not running out of oxygen, they were
accumulating CO2. Don't "think that CO2 would be about as harmful as
nitrogen."
=========================================================
Bob Jensen
bob_j...@jhuapl.edu
Richard Steven Walz
Michael Covington <mcov...@ai.uga.edu> wrote:
>Richard Steven Walz (rst...@armory.com) wrote:
>
>: Generally, CO2 gas shouldn't, but note that dry ice fog is produced by
>: reacting dry ice with warm water, and the water in the air also
>: condenses and forms literally a carbonous "acid rain", of carbonous
>: acid, also known as the "Pepsi-Cola syndrome" in electronics!! Now if
>: all your copper is masked, there shouldn't be much trouble, as the CO2
>: will dissipate after, but the solder is ALSO subject to this! Now I
>: have SEEN Coca-Cola eat the traces right OFF two parallel stages of an
>: amplifier, when someone had spilled a big splash of it into the grill
>: of a unit. I had to actually rebuild solid wire on the board and guess
>: at where the traces had been! Luckily it all worked, but I know now
>: that it isn't wise! If you do this, I hope it's a one time event, and
>: not an ongoing display, or you might be in trouble!
>: -Steve Walz rst...@armory.com
>
>acid, that ate the traces...
>Could we etch PC boards with Coca-Cola? Anyone care to try it and
>report back?
>--
>Michael A. Covington http://www.ai.uga.edu/faculty/covington/
-------------------------------------------
Thanks, Michael,
Hmmmm... Is there really that MUCH phosphoric acid in Coke? I hadn't
imagined that! And I apologize to the chemists around here!: I said
carbonous from CO2, when it's CO and H2O that makes carbonous! CO2 and
H2O make carbonIC! Sorry! Anybody know which it is in Coca-Cola that
can do that to copper?? And does H2CO3 eat Cu?
-Steve Walz rst...@armory.com
Jerry Biehler
Walz) wrote:
> In article <43pqju$o...@news.scruz.net>,
> David Goldwire <dave...@intruder.com> wrote:
> >Hi there,
> >
> >My company is putting together a very flashy data center as part of a
> >new building we're setting up. The data cetner has lots of fun
> >halogen spotlights on servers, walls of blinking lights, a decorative
> >raised floor (not functional at all), and other showy pointless
> >nonsense intended to make a bunch of dull-looking servers and network
> >equipment look impressive. We're having an opening ceremony where we intend
> >to wow some people by escorting them by the data center, and I had
> >an idea that I think would add the ultimate corny touch -- put dry
> >ice in the corners of the room to get fog on the floor, with the raised
> >floor in the center of the room protruding from it. My question is
> >this:
> >
> >Will the fog from dry ice hurt electronics? Specifically computers
> >and network equipment like routers and hubs? Any insight would be
> >helpful. Especially e-mail replies, as I don't usually participate
> >in this news group.
> > Thanks,
> > David Goldwire
> > dave...@intruder.com
> > Systems Administrator
> > Computer Intrusion Specialists
> --------------------------------------------
Why not just go down to a party supply shop and rent a fog machine. They
are a lot less maintence than dry ice. (Dry ice seals itself in ice afer a
while.
John Fields
Grasping at straws, Steve?
Well take a sip of this:
H2CO3 + 2Cu -> Cu2O3 + CH2 if the math is right, but I would like to
suggest that any number of other reactions could have taken place
which involved phosphoric acid (H3PO4) and copper(Cu) and some of the
other ingredients of Coca Cola (H2O, C12H22O11, ???) and a little
electricity.
Starship
John Fields
H2CO3 + 2Cu -> CH2 + Cu2O3 if the math is right and the catalysts are
there, but I would suggest that a number of other reactions are also
possible if phosphoric acid (H3PO4) and the other chemical constituents
of Coca Cola (H2O, C12H22O11, ???) are present in the presence of copper
and an electrical current. Perhaps dissociation of the copper into an
aqueous solution, perhaps not.
For a definitive answer try alt.cesium, but _PLEASE_ for your own sake,
be polite.
Starhip.
John Fields
I'm embarassed. sp?
Somehow, I thought my previous reply to Steve's reply went off to air,
but I was wrong. Instead, what I thought was gone precedes what I
wanted to send, and I'm sure had I not pressed ^X at the wrong time
I would not have to be writing this apology.
Starship
Janos Szamosfalvi
: >I think it was the phosphoric acid in the Coca-Cola, not the carbonic
: >acid, that ate the traces...
: >Could we etch PC boards with Coca-Cola? Anyone care to try it and
: >report back?
: >--
: >Michael A. Covington http://www.ai.uga.edu/faculty/covington/
: -------------------------------------------
: Thanks, Michael,
: Hmmmm... Is there really that MUCH phosphoric acid in Coke? I hadn't
: imagined that! And I apologize to the chemists around here!: I said
: carbonous from CO2, when it's CO and H2O that makes carbonous! CO2 and
: H2O make carbonIC! Sorry! Anybody know which it is in Coca-Cola that
: can do that to copper?? And does H2CO3 eat Cu?
H2CO3 is very unstable and will quickly turn into water and CO2
unless it's under pressure by excess CO2. In addition, it's a
very weak acid. I can't imagine H2CO3 eating away copper traces
in a normal environment.
Other acids such as phosphoric and citric acid are more stable and
stronger. Copper tend to make water soluble complexes with some
organic material.
Janos Szamosfalvi
: H2CO3 + 2Cu -> Cu2O3 + CH2 if the math is right,
You may have gotten your math right, but your chemistry is
definitely incorrect. ;-)
John Fields
: John Fields (star...@freeside.fc.net) wrote:
Thanks for the correction,
Starship
Richard Steven Walz
>: >
>: >: Generally, CO2 gas shouldn't, but note that dry ice fog is produced by
>: >: reacting dry ice with warm water, and the water in the air also
>: >: condenses and forms literally a carbonous "acid rain", of carbonous
>: >: acid, also known as the "Pepsi-Cola syndrome" in electronics!! Now if
>: >: all your copper is masked, there shouldn't be much trouble, as the CO2
>: >: will dissipate after, but the solder is ALSO subject to this! Now I
>: >: have SEEN Coca-Cola eat the traces right OFF two parallel stages of an
>: >: amplifier, when someone had spilled a big splash of it into the grill
>: >: of a unit. I had to actually rebuild solid wire on the board and guess
>: >: at where the traces had been! Luckily it all worked, but I know now
>: >: that it isn't wise! If you do this, I hope it's a one time event, and
>: >: not an ongoing display, or you might be in trouble!
>: >: -Steve Walz rst...@armory.com
>: >
>: >acid, that ate the traces...
>: >Could we etch PC boards with Coca-Cola? Anyone care to try it and
>: >report back?
>: >--
>: >Michael A. Covington http://www.ai.uga.edu/faculty/covington/
>: -------------------------------------------
>: Thanks, Michael,
>: Hmmmm... Is there really that MUCH phosphoric acid in Coke? I hadn't
>: imagined that! And I apologize to the chemists around here!: I said
>: carbonous from CO2, when it's CO and H2O that makes carbonous! CO2 and
>: H2O make carbonIC! Sorry! Anybody know which it is in Coca-Cola that
>: can do that to copper?? And does H2CO3 eat Cu?
>H2CO3 + 2Cu -> Cu2O3 + CH2 if the math is right, but I would like to
>suggest that any number of other reactions could have taken place
>which involved phosphoric acid (H3PO4) and copper(Cu) and some of the
>other ingredients of Coca Cola (H2O, C12H22O11, ???) and a little
>electricity.
> Starship
Uh, John... we don't have sucrose in our pop in the states!! ;-)
It's all corn syrup. Really tastes funny in Europe and the UK.
-Steve Walz rst...@armory.com ;-)
P.S., I actually had forgotten about phosphoric acid, as other soda
has done similar things to copper without it. And I don't know if that
copper reaction you teased me with for H2CO3 would run that direction,
would it? Looks hinky.
-Steve
Richard Herring
: will dissipate after, but the solder is ALSO subject to this! Now I
: have SEEN Coca-Cola eat the traces right OFF two parallel stages of an
: amplifier, when someone had spilled a big splash of it into the grill
Aha - but cola drinks contain phosphoric acid as well as carbonic.
It's more likely to be that which rots the traces. Anyone care to try
a control experiment with a phosphate-free carbonated drink
(eg mineral water) ?
--
| Richard Herring | richard...@gmrc.gecm.com | Speaking for myself
| GEC-Marconi Research Centre | Not the one on TV.
John Fields
: John Fields (star...@freeside.fc.net) wrote:
: > H2CO3 + 2Cu -> Cu2O3 + CH2 if the math is right, but I would like to
: > suggest that any number of other reactions could have taken place
: > which involved phosphoric acid (H3PO4) and copper(Cu) and some of the
: > other ingredients of Coca Cola (H2O, C12H22O11, ???) and a little
: > electricity.
: > Starship
: Yeah, then you wave a magic wand over it, and it does this:
: Cu2O3 ---> 2Cu + O3
Well, perhaps if the "magic wand" were electrolysis this could happen,
but I doubt whether the ozone could escape, being as active as it is.
: and you contribute to the formation of ozone in the lower atmosphere,
: and get the copper back...What is CH2??!
CH2? Why that's just immature methane looking for a couple of
hydrogens, and fart oo young to be considered seriously.
: -Noah Christian
: Indiana University
: Dept of Chemistry
Starship
John Fields
: John Fields <star...@freeside.fc.net> wrote:
: >Richard Steven Walz (rst...@armory.com) wrote:
: >: In article <43s7oh$r...@hobbes.cc.uga.edu>,
: >: Michael Covington <mcov...@ai.uga.edu> wrote:
: >: >Richard Steven Walz (rst...@armory.com) wrote:
: >: >
: >: >: Generally, CO2 gas shouldn't, but note that dry ice fog is produced by
: >: >: reacting dry ice with warm water, and the water in the air also
: >: >: condenses and forms literally a carbonous "acid rain", of carbonous
: >: >: acid, also known as the "Pepsi-Cola syndrome" in electronics!! Now if
: >: >: all your copper is masked, there shouldn't be much trouble, as the CO2
: >: >: have SEEN Coca-Cola eat the traces right OFF two parallel stages of an
: >: >: amplifier, when someone had spilled a big splash of it into the grill
: >: >: at where the traces had been! Luckily it all worked, but I know now
: >: >: that it isn't wise! If you do this, I hope it's a one time event, and
: >: >: not an ongoing display, or you might be in trouble!
: >: >: -Steve Walz rst...@armory.com
: >: >
: >: >I think it was the phosphoric acid in the Coca-Cola, not the carbonic
: >: >acid, that ate the traces...
: >: >Could we etch PC boards with Coca-Cola? Anyone care to try it and
: >: >report back?
: >: >--
: >: >Michael A. Covington http://www.ai.uga.edu/faculty/covington/
: >: -------------------------------------------
: >: Thanks, Michael,
: >: Hmmmm... Is there really that MUCH phosphoric acid in Coke? I hadn't
: >: imagined that! And I apologize to the chemists around here!: I said
: >: carbonous from CO2, when it's CO and H2O that makes carbonous! CO2 and
: >: H2O make carbonIC! Sorry! Anybody know which it is in Coca-Cola that
: >: can do that to copper?? And does H2CO3 eat Cu?
: >: -Steve Walz rst...@armory.com
: >-----------------------------------
: >Grasping at straws, Steve?
: >Well take a sip of this:
: >H2CO3 + 2Cu -> Cu2O3 + CH2 if the math is right, but I would like to
: >suggest that any number of other reactions could have taken place
: >which involved phosphoric acid (H3PO4) and copper(Cu) and some of the
: >other ingredients of Coca Cola (H2O, C12H22O11, ???) and a little
: >electricity.
: > Starship
: Uh, John... we don't have sucrose in our pop in the states!! ;-)
: It's all corn syrup. Really tastes funny in Europe and the UK.
: -Steve Walz rst...@armory.com ;-)
: P.S., I actually had forgotten about phosphoric acid, as other soda
: has done similar things to copper without it. And I don't know if that
: copper reaction you teased me with for H2CO3 would run that direction,
: would it? Looks hinky.
: -Steve
hinky? I'm in the dark about that one...
Starship