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Affordable PCB Layout Software ???

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Blackwater

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Jul 30, 2008, 11:27:38 AM7/30/08
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Um ... has there been some kind of conspiracy at work over
the past few years to totally drain the marketplace of
decent PCB layout/routing software ???

Circuitmaker, Protel, Traxmaker ... the sub-$200 kind of
goodies that combined all the good features with intuitive
no-BS interfaces - gone. Seems they've all been bought-up
and destroyed by Altium - which will now generously sell you
their "complete system" for more than your slightly-used
SUV will get you at trade-in nowadays.

Well, I don't *need* a "complete system" ... I just need to
be able to blast out smallish PCBs using mostly manual routing
and create files that the cheap commercial boardmakers can
use with their latest machines (lately we seem to see a lot
more boards produced by milling technology).

Oh sure, some of those boardmakers will generously let you
use THEIR layout software ... "theirs" in that they've tweaked
it so you can only send the design to THEIR company instead
of a competitors - unless you want to toss all your old
designs and start from scratch.

Conspiracy, or racket ?

For now I'm using my creaky old TraxMaker-3 program. GREAT
package, EASY to use, LOTS of options, point-n-click and
spin and drag stuff anywhere you want ... but it's OLD and
can't do the trick for milled boards. OK if I want to make
phototemplates and do a few prototype boards myself, but ...

I've looked at some of free/cheap stuff - Vutrax, Pad2Pad,
Eagle etc and frankly they STINK. Not intuitive or overly
attached to autorouting or miniscule component libraries
or mostly some combo of "all of the above".

Is there some middle ground left out there SOMEWHERE ?
I'd love something that has much the look & feel & ease
of Traxmaker but a more modern selection of capabilities,
libraries and export options. My wallet isn't that deep
however... I could afford maybe $250-$350, somewhere in
there.

Is there any hope ? Something I've missed ? Winders ? Linux ?
Address of the "Society For The Prevention of Software Rip-Offs" ???

Rüdiger Leibrandt

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Jul 30, 2008, 11:35:29 AM7/30/08
to
Cadsoft: EAGLE

For free in use for private, noncommercial and with limited capabilites in
PCB-size and layers. I use it professionayl at work in a payed-for version
able to do bigger PCBs and more layers than the outer two.

David Gravereaux

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Jul 30, 2008, 11:53:54 AM7/30/08
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Emanuele

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Jul 30, 2008, 12:15:45 PM7/30/08
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In this BOOK

http://dev.emcelettronica.com/pcb

see the "PCB Design CAD" page

Emanuele

a7yvm1...@netzero.com

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Jul 30, 2008, 12:22:33 PM7/30/08
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I know what you mean.
"CAD tools for the electronics sector are generally a nuisance for the
user. For no other piece of software would it be accepted to pay such
horrendous sums of money for such poorly programmed, poorly documented
and faulty programs. Only to give an example: For a mechanical
engineer it is absolutely incomprehensive that a certain tool can
survive on the market which cannot produce output that can be
processed by a manufacturer."

http://bwrc.eecs.berkeley.edu/People/Grad_Students/jbeutel/cad_tools_e.html

I use Cadence for work and I find it to be abysmal; an archaic,
outdated and buggy pile of crap. And slow.
There is definitely something weird in that industry, it is full of
masochists of the highest order. I mean already EEs have to be
masochists, but PCB designers are the next level up.
Why we are stuck with atrocious expensive software is a mystery.

Joel Koltner

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Jul 30, 2008, 1:52:29 PM7/30/08
to
"Blackwater" <b...@barrk.net> wrote in message
news:489081d0...@news.east.earthlink.net...

> Circuitmaker, Protel, Traxmaker ... the sub-$200 kind of
> goodies that combined all the good features with intuitive
> no-BS interfaces - gone.

Yeah, although many of them still work OK under Windows XP if you can find a
copy.

Beside Eagle and KiCAD that others mentioned, gEDA is the "heavyweight" of
100% free schematic capture/PCB layout software. Probably doesn't fit your
"good features with intuitive no-BS interfaces," but you might check it out
anyway (it's more "tons of features, interface requires a fair learning curve,
it won't necessarily be easy, but it does get the job done...").

Pulsonix has been slowly upping their prices as they've added features, but
their "performance per dollar" ratio is still quite good -- certainly many
times that of something like OrCAD. (Although some of their "upping the
price" apparently has to do with the weakness of the U.S. dollar...)

This topic comes up regularly here (and on sci.electronics.cad) -- if you
search the archives you'll find long threads discussing the various packages,
pricing, etc.

> Oh sure, some of those boardmakers will generously let you
> use THEIR layout software ... "theirs" in that they've tweaked
> it so you can only send the design to THEIR company instead
> of a competitors - unless you want to toss all your old
> designs and start from scratch.

Some of them (e.g., Advanced Circuits) will give or sell you the regular
Gerber files after you've placed an order through them.

Many packages let you import files from other packages, although it's often a
less-than-perfect translation based on the differing feature sets in each
package (and just bugs in the code that does the import).

> Conspiracy, or racket ?

Schematic capture/PCB layout is a nichey enough market that I think it's
rather difficult to make a living if you're selling the software for a couple
hundred bucks. You do have the occasional individual and small company (e.g.,
Eaglesoft) that's noticeably more efficient than most and can do so, but if
you just round up a bunch of average programmers these days and ask them to
write EDA tools it's not surprising to me what sorts of prices you get by the
time they're done.

> I've looked at some of free/cheap stuff - Vutrax, Pad2Pad,
> Eagle etc and frankly they STINK. Not intuitive or overly
> attached to autorouting or miniscule component libraries
> or mostly some combo of "all of the above".

My only comment here is that "intuitive" is somewhat subjective and "miniscule
component libraries" might actually be a plus -- in most cases you'd want to
build your own component library anyway. :-)

---Joel


Joel Koltner

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Jul 30, 2008, 2:04:18 PM7/30/08
to
<a7yvm1...@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:6f73a65d-098a-43dc...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...

> There is definitely something weird in that industry, it is full of
> masochists of the highest order. I mean already EEs have to be
> masochists, but PCB designers are the next level up.
> Why we are stuck with atrocious expensive software is a mystery.

1) Most companies stick with what they started with, because once something
has become "the company standard" anything different has to be overwhelmingly
better to get most companies to change. Some of the reluctance to change is
legitimate -- there are real re-training/re-entry costs involved -- but much
of it is just human nature: Many people prefer to stick with what's
comfortable for them at the expense of their employer, a couple of very loud
"no, let's not change!" voices are often allowed to outweigh a dozen, "yes, we
should change!" ones, etc.
2) It's not just EDA tools. It's a lot of somewhat nichey industries where
automation software was introduced back in the '80s/early '90s, and often
times the *only* solutions available weren't particularly stellar, but OK for
the day. These programs became entrenched, leaving you with problem #1, even
as far better programs were brought to the market in the late '90s/early otts.

As an example, customer care/billing databases (and their front-ends)
originally designed for small, independent doctor's clinics (and dentist's
offices) have a similar problem: Many still have antiquated user interfaces
with proprietary data formats with few or no options to import/export the
data. The later is often used as a means to try to lock in customers from
switching, by making it much, much more expensive to do so than to stick with
the same program, paying maintenance year after year, rather than changing
ships.

---Joel


Leon

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Jul 30, 2008, 2:22:48 PM7/30/08
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James Arthur

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Jul 30, 2008, 2:32:00 PM7/30/08
to

I've done several boards with Sprint-Layout 5.0.

http://www.abacom-online.de/uk/html/sprint-layout.html

39 Euros, download and go.

(sPlan, their schematic editor, is available for the same
price, but I haven't used it.)

I like Sprint-Layout quite a lot. Particularly, I find the
menus and functions clear, fast, and logical. It's compact,
and easy to make footprints, outputs Gerbers, etc. Control
of trace widths and pads is wonderfully simple.

I've never had it hang or crash.

Its only failing so far is the pin-to-pin autorouter,
which does crappy routings. Protel's EasyTrax did that
very well, and I miss it, but hand-routing isn't difficult.

I love the rubber-banded wiring feature: quickly click
in wires you plan to place and a blue trace appears to
remind you to make each connection.

I mean to try gEDA some time, but this is what I use now.

HTH,
James Arthur

Andy Peters

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Jul 30, 2008, 2:32:19 PM7/30/08
to
On Jul 30, 8:35 am, Rüdiger Leibrandt <qui...@informatik.uni-

bremen.de> wrote:
> Cadsoft: EAGLE
>
> For free in use for private, noncommercial and with limited capabilites in
> PCB-size and layers. I use it professionayl at work in a payed-for version
> able to do bigger PCBs and more layers than the outer two.

Eagle has a diabolical user interface. Hello, why can't I press "ESC"
and have it cancel the current operation?

Why can't it display the net name in the pads and vias like real CAD
software?

I really DO want to like Eagle. I like how it runs natively on Mac OS
X. But every time I try to actually use it, I just give up.

-a

Rüdiger

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Jul 30, 2008, 3:00:29 PM7/30/08
to
Joel Koltner wrote:

Well, someone else meantioned it here:
GEDA
Indeed, that's a fine piece of software, and I would have preferred it over
Eagle, but after four years of using Eagle I'm satisfied with what it does
and have all my libraries made in it, so , for GEDA I'd have to redo most
of the stuff. Well, so I stay with Eagle. But when they would rise the
price I'd be gone.
--
Sincerely

Ruediger

JeffM

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Jul 30, 2008, 3:26:49 PM7/30/08
to
Joel Koltner wrote:
>[...]Beside Eagle and KiCAD that others mentioned,
>gEDA is the "heavyweight" of 100% free[...]
>
>[...]You do have the occasional individual and small company
>(e.g., Eaglesoft) [...] write EDA tools
>
Eaglesoft writes *flight simulator* software.

The company that produces
the Easily Applicable Graphical Layout Editor
(acronym: EAGLE--all caps) is *Cadsoft*.

>This topic comes up regularly here (and on sci.electronics.cad)
>-- if you search the archives you'll find long threads
>discussing the various packages, pricing, etc.
>

http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=ingroup:electronics+KiCAD+intitle:PCB&scoring=d&filter=0&num=100

Joel Koltner

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Jul 30, 2008, 3:52:04 PM7/30/08
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"JeffM" <jef...@email.com> wrote in message
news:0b1611f2-5666-4dab...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

> Eaglesoft writes *flight simulator* software.

Oops! Thanks for the correction, Jeff. :-)

> The company that produces
> the Easily Applicable Graphical Layout Editor
> (acronym: EAGLE--all caps) is *Cadsoft*.

I didn't know it was an acronym before either.

---Joel


Nico Coesel

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Jul 30, 2008, 4:26:19 PM7/30/08
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=?ISO-8859-15?Q?R=FCdiger?= <ruediger....@gmx.de> wrote:

>Joel Koltner wrote:
>
>> <a7yvm1...@netzero.com> wrote in message
>> news:6f73a65d-098a-43dc...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>> There is definitely something weird in that industry, it is full of
>>> masochists of the highest order. I mean already EEs have to be
>>> masochists, but PCB designers are the next level up.
>>> Why we are stuck with atrocious expensive software is a mystery.
>>
>>

>> As an example, customer care/billing databases (and their front-ends)
>> originally designed for small, independent doctor's clinics (and dentist's
>> offices) have a similar problem: Many still have antiquated user
>> interfaces with proprietary data formats with few or no options to
>> import/export the
>> data. The later is often used as a means to try to lock in customers from
>> switching, by making it much, much more expensive to do so than to stick
>> with the same program, paying maintenance year after year, rather than
>> changing ships.
>>
>> ---Joel
>
>Well, someone else meantioned it here:
>GEDA
>Indeed, that's a fine piece of software, and I would have preferred it over
>Eagle, but after four years of using Eagle I'm satisfied with what it does
>and have all my libraries made in it, so , for GEDA I'd have to redo most
>of the stuff. Well, so I stay with Eagle. But when they would rise the
>price I'd be gone.

I tried Geda two years ago. The schematics package isn't bad. It just
needs a lot of mouse clicks and no connection to a component database.
The PCB package is something I wouldn't recommend (because the
netnames are not attached to the tracks which makes it impossible to
find the source of a short circuit) altough a lot of people are happy
using it.

--
Programmeren in Almere?
E-mail naar nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)

Ben Jackson

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Jul 30, 2008, 4:43:03 PM7/30/08
to
On 2008-07-30, Nico Coesel <ni...@puntnl.niks> wrote:
>
> The PCB package is something I wouldn't recommend (because the
> netnames are not attached to the tracks which makes it impossible to
> find the source of a short circuit) altough a lot of people are happy
> using it.

PCB has gotten a lot of development in the last few years. Nets certainly
are associated with wires on the board.

The learning curve of gEDA is steep, but there's a lot of power there, too.
If you are a programmer (even just moderate scripting skills) you will
appreciate the easily understood text file formats that let you do things
like generate an 1156BGA footprint without clicking 1156*n times.

One of the exciting PCB developments is a GSOC project working on a
topological autorouter for PCB. Cool animations here:

http://voodoo.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~amb33/tar/

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD
<b...@ben.com>
http://www.ben.com/

rickman

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Jul 30, 2008, 4:49:24 PM7/30/08
to
On Jul 30, 11:27 am, b...@barrk.net (Blackwater) wrote:
>
> Is there any hope ? Something I've missed ? Winders ? Linux ?
> Address of the "Society For The Prevention of Software Rip-Offs" ???

One that is not as well known, but works very well is FreePCB at
freepcb.com. I have used if for commercial boards including a very
dense six layer mixed signal board which I going into production as we
speak!

Rick

Boris Mohar

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Jul 30, 2008, 4:52:06 PM7/30/08
to
On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:27:38 GMT, b...@barrk.net (Blackwater) wrote:

>Um ... has there been some kind of conspiracy at work over
>the past few years to totally drain the marketplace of
>decent PCB layout/routing software ???

..Snip


>Is there some middle ground left out there SOMEWHERE ?
>I'd love something that has much the look & feel & ease
>of Traxmaker but a more modern selection of capabilities,
>libraries and export options. My wallet isn't that deep
>however... I could afford maybe $250-$350, somewhere in
>there.
>
>Is there any hope ? Something I've missed ? Winders ? Linux ?
>Address of the "Society For The Prevention of Software Rip-Offs" ???

I have a dedicated Win98 machine on which I run a "obsolete" DOS program
called PCB386+
It allows me to make decent multi layer boards without submitting myself to
the autocracy of dozens of nested pull down menus. It can take EDIF netlist
from DOS Orcad and Orcad Capture (Windows)

There is Yahoo groups support.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OldDosOrcad/
OldDo...@yahoogroups.com

Some examples
http://www.viatrack.ca/Misc/DSP.jpg
http://www.viatrack.ca/Misc/EMDSPI.pdf

--

Boris Mohar


wzab

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Jul 30, 2008, 5:00:16 PM7/30/08
to
I usually use:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pcb
with gschem (from gEDA) for schematics.
--
HTH, Wojtek

Nico Coesel

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Jul 30, 2008, 4:56:16 PM7/30/08
to
James Arthur <bogus...@verizon.net> wrote:

>Blackwater wrote:
>> Um ... has there been some kind of conspiracy at work over
>> the past few years to totally drain the marketplace of
>> decent PCB layout/routing software ???
>>
>> Circuitmaker, Protel, Traxmaker ... the sub-$200 kind of
>> goodies that combined all the good features with intuitive
>> no-BS interfaces - gone. Seems they've all been bought-up
>> and destroyed by Altium - which will now generously sell you
>> their "complete system" for more than your slightly-used
>> SUV will get you at trade-in nowadays.
>>
>>

>> Is there any hope ? Something I've missed ? Winders ? Linux ?
>> Address of the "Society For The Prevention of Software Rip-Offs" ???
>>
>
>I've done several boards with Sprint-Layout 5.0.
>
>http://www.abacom-online.de/uk/html/sprint-layout.html
>
>39 Euros, download and go.
>
>(sPlan, their schematic editor, is available for the same
>price, but I haven't used it.)

Looks nice, but how about importing netlists from other schematic
editors?

Nico Coesel

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Jul 30, 2008, 5:29:54 PM7/30/08
to
Ben Jackson <b...@ben.com> wrote:

>On 2008-07-30, Nico Coesel <ni...@puntnl.niks> wrote:
>>
>> The PCB package is something I wouldn't recommend (because the
>> netnames are not attached to the tracks which makes it impossible to
>> find the source of a short circuit) altough a lot of people are happy
>> using it.
>
>PCB has gotten a lot of development in the last few years. Nets certainly
>are associated with wires on the board.

Allright, I might give it a retry.

>The learning curve of gEDA is steep, but there's a lot of power there, too.
>If you are a programmer (even just moderate scripting skills) you will
>appreciate the easily understood text file formats that let you do things
>like generate an 1156BGA footprint without clicking 1156*n times.

That is one true thing. When I used PCB I found myself writing small
programs to create the most complicated footprints using some very
simple functions to place pads and outlines. Some 'for' loops to place
the pads and some lines for the outline and done. Besides the speed
advantage, the resulting footprint is exactly according to the sizes
specified by the manufacturer. This is often a time consuming
excersize using a GUI tool.

Guy Macon

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Jul 30, 2008, 7:06:44 PM7/30/08
to


rickman wrote:

>One that is not as well known, but works very well is FreePCB at
>freepcb.com. I have used if for commercial boards including a very
>dense six layer mixed signal board which I going into production as we
>speak!

Does it have schematic capture? If not, what brand of schematic
capture works well with is?

--
Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/>

lynchaj

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Jul 30, 2008, 7:26:54 PM7/30/08
to
On Jul 30, 11:27 am, b...@barrk.net (Blackwater) wrote:

Hi,

I recommend the combination of KiCad and FreeRouting.net. It is an
almost unbeatable combination.

KiCad is free as in beer and speech, runs on Windows and Linux. It
has an interface to use FreeRouting.net for autorouting or manual
routing of PCB traces.

I used KiCad and FreeRouting.net for my N8VEM SBC project. You can
check out a sample on the Google Groups of the SBC PCB and ECB
backplane PCB.

http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem/files?&sort=date

KiCad has large part library support and can import Eagle parts. It
can import and export Specctra and GenCAD as well.

Try KiCad! You'll be happy you did!

Thanks and good luck!

Andrew Lynch

rickman

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Jul 30, 2008, 7:45:00 PM7/30/08
to
On Jul 30, 7:06 pm, Guy Macon <http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote:
> rickman wrote:
> >One that is not as well known, but works very well is FreePCB at
> >freepcb.com. I have used if for commercial boards including a very
> >dense six layer mixed signal board which I going into production as we
> >speak!
>
> Does it have schematic capture? If not, what brand of schematic
> capture works well with is?

It is schematic capture agnostic. It only cares about the net list
which should be PADS compatible, IIRC. I used Orcad with it and many
users use TinyCad which is another open source program. I didn't find
TinyCad suitable for my needs, but I am still looking... Orcad is ok,
but I would prefer something open source.

Rick

James Arthur

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Jul 30, 2008, 8:01:05 PM7/30/08
to

I don't know. In fact, I'm not even sure either package supports
netlists. I poked around the menus and help, but couldn't find
"import."

That's not a drawback to me--I've been doing large layouts by
hand since I was a kid--but you might find it so.

The OP said he wanted to do quickie boards and get fab files
out. Sprint-Layout does that great, the .EXE is just 2MB,
and it's flaming fast. I love that.

Please don't consider mine the last word on the netlist thing--
I really don't know.

Cheers,
James Arthur

James Morrison

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Jul 30, 2008, 8:56:28 PM7/30/08
to
On 2008/Jul/30 11:35 AM, in article g6q1nv$5bk$1...@fortuna.zfn.uni-bremen.de,
"Rüdiger Leibrandt" <qui...@informatik.uni-bremen.de> wrote:

> Cadsoft: EAGLE
>
> For free in use for private, noncommercial and with limited capabilites in
> PCB-size and layers. I use it professionayl at work in a payed-for version
> able to do bigger PCBs and more layers than the outer two.

I'd agree with EAGLE as a good option. It is true the UI takes a bit of
getting used to. That has been greatly increased with the upgrade EAGLE 5.
It is still different, but in a good way I would say. Before we distributed
EAGLE, we used it for serious design work for many clients (and still do).
We often have to use our customer's tools and I can honestly say that I
normally come out of that still preferring EAGLE.

PROS:

1) Various licenses to match our need (free, Light, non-profit, standard,
pro, educational, student, ...)

2) And you can upgrade and only pay the difference (exception upgrade from
light). That fact alone will save $1000's if you have plans to scale.
CadSoft doesn't advertise this enough, IMHO. Upgrades are a very minimum
cost. The highest license cost $280 to upgrade to EAGLE 5. A paid upgrade
cycle is about 3 years. Currently full new license is about $1500US. So
all in all it is quite reasonable for what you get.

3) Common database between schematic and board--no forward and backward
annotation. If you use the tool correctly the two are always in sync. This
saves no end of headache and time.

4) Fully documented access to all design info through their own User
Language Program. Very powerful. Hopefully it will be extended even
further, but it is certainly pretty useful. We have a suite of tools in the
process of being released for EAGLE that are based on this.

5) Are you used to certain shortcuts? Modify all the shortcuts in EAGLE to
whatever you like. They still need to allow use of Page Up/Down and arrow
keys, but what is currently available is very flexible. Anything you can do
in the tool can be scripted and anything you can script can be assigned to a
key sequence.

6) Binary file compatibility across Windows, Linux, and MacOSX (all native
applications).

7) Free support for life. If you pay for a real license that includes
phone support. And it's actually pretty good. And an involved community
existed for further support.

I'm not saying it's better than the big boys. But for about 80-90% of PCB's
that are designed it is more than adequate. And another 5% can be done if
you know what you are doing. Sure there are some boards that it can't do
but I doubt very many people will hit that limit.

EAGLE 5 was released a few months ago and they are still working through a
few bugs that caused.

Sales pitch: if you want to purchase a license you can do so at
www.eagletoolkit.com

Cheers,

James.

--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ ~
~ James Morrison ~~~ Stratford Digital ~
~ ~
~ web: http://www.eagletoolkit.com ~
~ ~
~ Online EAGLE Dealer for US and Canada ~
~ EAGLE Design Experts ~
~ EAGLE Enterprise Toolkit ~
~ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

john jardine

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Jul 30, 2008, 9:03:12 PM7/30/08
to

"James Arthur" <bogus...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:As2kk.561$rb5.462@trnddc04...
[...]

> I've done several boards with Sprint-Layout 5.0.
>
> http://www.abacom-online.de/uk/html/sprint-layout.html
>
> 39 Euros, download and go.
>
> (sPlan, their schematic editor, is available for the same
> price, but I haven't used it.)
>
> I like Sprint-Layout quite a lot. Particularly, I find the
> menus and functions clear, fast, and logical. It's compact,
> and easy to make footprints, outputs Gerbers, etc. Control
> of trace widths and pads is wonderfully simple.
>
> I've never had it hang or crash.
>
> Its only failing so far is the pin-to-pin autorouter,
> which does crappy routings. Protel's EasyTrax did that
> very well, and I miss it, but hand-routing isn't difficult.
>
> I love the rubber-banded wiring feature: quickly click
> in wires you plan to place and a blue trace appears to
> remind you to make each connection.
>
> I mean to try gEDA some time, but this is what I use now.
>
> HTH,
> James Arthur

'Till your mention, hadn't come across it before.
Just trying the demo'. Seems fast, no fluff. I really like the milling and
HPGL stuff , though can't seem to find any library items.


RST Engineering (jw)

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Jul 30, 2008, 9:28:53 PM7/30/08
to
It is true the UI takes a bit of
> getting used to. That has been greatly increased with the upgrade EAGLE
> 5.

Excuse me, sir, but the English logic of those sentences say that the
"getting used to" has been "greatly increased". That means that it is
HARDER to use than before. Is that what you really meant?


> It is still different, but in a good way I would say.

Other than the fact that you peddle it and make money at it, why would you
say that "different" was "good"? Most of us who make our trains run on
standard dimension tracks find that we don't derail nearly as often as those
who use a "different" gauge standard.

Lemmee tell you why it is "different". That's because die DSCHERMANN
ingineers can't stand to let well enough alone. It is DSCHERMANN
INGINEERING that Eagle is being choked by, not by the program itself. I
haven't met a DSCHERMANN ingineer yet that doesn't despise anything invented
outside DSCHERRMANY. Put a couple of Brits, Aussies, and 'mericans to
rewriting it and in six months you might have something worth selling.


>
> I'm not saying it's better than the big boys. But for about 80-90% of
> PCB's
> that are designed it is more than adequate. And another 5% can be done if
> you know what you are doing. Sure there are some boards that it can't do
> but I doubt very many people will hit that limit.

We didn't give a royal rat's hiney about the "big boys" in this thread. Get
off your horse and answer the challenge --- Eagle is a pain in the ass to
use. Now I agree...I had Eagle from nearly ten years ago and detested it so
much that I haven't been back since. But in that time I've done beta work
for both Number 1 (Easy-pc) and Microcode (Circuitmaker) and I can tell you
that out-of-the-box I was able to have a working relationship with both
these programs in a weekend. Eagle jerked me around for nearly a month, and
I STILL can't make heads or tails out of it.

(BTW, not to encourage software piracy, but both Circuitmaker and Traxmaker
2000 and Service Pack 1 are available to torrent download from a dozen
sites. CMTM2K for my money is/was the best low end package ever put on the
market.)


>
> EAGLE 5 was released a few months ago and they are still working through a
> few bugs that caused.

That caused what? That's an incomplete sentence.


>
> Sales pitch: if you want to purchase a license you can do so at
> www.eagletoolkit.com

I bought a license. 10 years ago. Eagle 2 as I vaguely recall. I have no
idea where the license or the disk is; I may have destroyed them in a fit of
frustration. Do you have a list of prior customers so that I can have a
look at your latest revision?

Jim


Guy Macon

unread,
Jul 30, 2008, 10:27:42 PM7/30/08
to


RST Engineering (jw) wrote:

>why would you say that "different" was "good"? Most of us
>who make our trains run on standard dimension tracks find
>that we don't derail nearly as often as those who use a
>"different" gauge standard.

That is a really bad analogy. Sometimes different is better.
Sometimes different is a *lot* better. At one time, CAD was
"different" and "standard" was schematics drawn in pencil on
large sheets of expensive paper, copies that smelled of
ammonia and layouts done with tape on large sheets of
expensive plastic.

>Lemmee tell you why it is "different". That's because die
>DSCHERMANN ingineers can't stand to let well enough alone.
>It is DSCHERMANN INGINEERING that Eagle is being choked by,
>not by the program itself. I haven't met a DSCHERMANN
>ingineer yet that doesn't despise anything invented outside
>DSCHERRMANY. Put a couple of Brits, Aussies, and 'mericans
>to rewriting it and in six months you might have something
>worth selling.

The use of "cute" mis-spelling does not hide the fact that
the above is pure emotion that is totally devoid of logic
or evidence. There are good products and bad products
from Germany, and there are good products and bad products
from Australia, the USA or the UK.

>> I'm not saying it's better than the big boys. But for about 80-90% of
>> PCB's
>> that are designed it is more than adequate. And another 5% can be done if
>> you know what you are doing. Sure there are some boards that it can't do
>> but I doubt very many people will hit that limit.
>
>We didn't give a royal rat's hiney about the "big boys" in this thread. Get
>off your horse and answer the challenge --- Eagle is a pain in the ass to
>use. Now I agree...I had Eagle from nearly ten years ago and detested it so
>much that I haven't been back since. But in that time I've done beta work
>for both Number 1 (Easy-pc) and Microcode (Circuitmaker) and I can tell you
>that out-of-the-box I was able to have a working relationship with both
>these programs in a weekend. Eagle jerked me around for nearly a month, and
>I STILL can't make heads or tails out of it.

If you had left out all the name calling and simply wrote the above
in a calm, reasoned manner, your argument would have been far stronger.

>I bought a license. 10 years ago. Eagle 2 as I vaguely recall.

It would be helpful if you were to specify how long ago your bad
experience with EAGLE was so that we can evaluate how well your
comments apply to the latest version.

James Arthur

unread,
Jul 30, 2008, 10:44:58 PM7/30/08
to

The library is extensive, and super-easily accessed, extended,
and modified: items pop up in a toolbar on the right-hand side
of the screen.

Options-->Show Macro-Library.

(I'm not sure how much library you get with the demo.)

Oh, it's limited to four trace layers, if that's a problem
for some. It's not for me. Large boards are fine, metric
or english units, etc.

I've more than recouped my 39 euros just in the time saved
learning the program and its ease of use -- it's logical and
clean to where I've scarcely needed to check the help files.
Just click the icons, and it does what I want. Fast.

It really is a sweet program.

Cheers,
James Arthur

James Morrison

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 12:47:28 AM7/31/08
to
On 2008/Jul/30 9:28 PM, in article
l9OdnaU37MrDiAzV...@supernews.com, "RST Engineering (jw)"
<j...@rstengineering.com> wrote:

> It is true the UI takes a bit of
>> getting used to. That has been greatly increased with the upgrade EAGLE
>> 5.
>
> Excuse me, sir, but the English logic of those sentences say that the
> "getting used to" has been "greatly increased". That means that it is
> HARDER to use than before. Is that what you really meant?

Thanks for pointing out the typo. Even without the typo I should have
explained more, but I was rushed. So let me expand just a bit.

Most modern GUI's are based around the idea that you pick the object (think
right-click on a desktop) and then select the function (delete, copy, ...).
But when entering schematics and laying out a board, one usually wants to
perform the same function many times on multiple objects. So that is how
EAGLE has traditionally functioned: pick function then apply to multiple
objects until another function is picked.

But with newbies who are used to object selecting this seems odd and takes
some getting used to. EAGLE 5 now allows the user to do both: right click
and pick function or use the traditional EAGLE model which is actually more
efficient once you get the hang of it.

<snip rant against Germans, not worth responding to>

>> I'm not saying it's better than the big boys. But for about 80-90% of
>> PCB's
>> that are designed it is more than adequate. And another 5% can be done if
>> you know what you are doing. Sure there are some boards that it can't do
>> but I doubt very many people will hit that limit.
>
> We didn't give a royal rat's hiney about the "big boys" in this thread. Get
> off your horse and answer the challenge --- Eagle is a pain in the ass to
> use. Now I agree...I had Eagle from nearly ten years ago and detested it so
> much that I haven't been back since. But in that time I've done beta work
> for both Number 1 (Easy-pc) and Microcode (Circuitmaker) and I can tell you
> that out-of-the-box I was able to have a working relationship with both
> these programs in a weekend. Eagle jerked me around for nearly a month, and
> I STILL can't make heads or tails out of it.

You may or may not like it, that is fine. But the basics are the basics and
EAGLE isn't that complicated. There is a good tutorial that comes with
EAGLE that takes about an hour and does a pretty good job of introducing the
basics.



> I bought a license. 10 years ago. Eagle 2 as I vaguely recall. I have no
> idea where the license or the disk is; I may have destroyed them in a fit of
> frustration. Do you have a list of prior customers so that I can have a
> look at your latest revision?

CadSoft (a completely separate business entity) does have a database of
license owners. The license card is the primary method of establishing
ownership for upgrade pricing, though I haven't had anyone ask about the
pricing from EAGLE 2. I'm sure there are other ways to establish ownership
in extreme cases but that would be up to CadSoft to determine.

If you want to see the latest revision just download from cadsoftusa.com.
The freeware version will run fine and the license can be upgraded without
needing a reinstall.

RST Engineering (jw)

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 12:56:28 AM7/31/08
to
>
> Most modern GUI's are based around the idea that you pick the object
> (think
> right-click on a desktop)

No sir, most modern GUIS are based on LEFT click on the object, which is one
of the fundamental things that your GHERMANN ingineers can't comprehend.

Jim


JSprocket

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 3:37:28 AM7/31/08
to
Joel Koltner wrote:

> 1) Most companies stick with what they started with, because once something
> has become "the company standard" anything different has to be overwhelmingly
> better to get most companies to change. Some of the reluctance to change is
> legitimate -- there are real re-training/re-entry costs involved

The almost total absence of inter- operability is probably the main
factor. You soon build up a whole lot of designs that you need to
continue to support. There's no chance for the most part of transferring
them to a new system, so unless there's an overwhelming reason (you
acn't get by without a feature that's not supported, or the vendor goes
bust), there's a positive disincentive to change.

JS


>

Robert Lacoste

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 8:06:57 AM7/31/08
to
Give a try to Proteus (www.labcenter.co.uk), we have switched to it from
more expensive packages a couple of years ago and we are delighted.
Especially with the mixed signal VSM simulator of course but the PCB design
suite has all the features we need even for quite complex RF designs.

Robert

"Blackwater" <b...@barrk.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
489081d0...@news.east.earthlink.net...


> Um ... has there been some kind of conspiracy at work over
> the past few years to totally drain the marketplace of
> decent PCB layout/routing software ???
>
> Circuitmaker, Protel, Traxmaker ... the sub-$200 kind of
> goodies that combined all the good features with intuitive
> no-BS interfaces - gone. Seems they've all been bought-up
> and destroyed by Altium - which will now generously sell you
> their "complete system" for more than your slightly-used
> SUV will get you at trade-in nowadays.
>

Meindert Sprang

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 8:33:55 AM7/31/08
to
"Robert Lacoste" <use-contact-at-www-alciom-com-for-email> wrote in message
news:4891aae3$0$883$ba4a...@news.orange.fr...

> Give a try to Proteus (www.labcenter.co.uk), we have switched to it from
> more expensive packages a couple of years ago and we are delighted.
> Especially with the mixed signal VSM simulator of course but the PCB
design
> suite has all the features we need even for quite complex RF designs.

How would Proteus compare to the combo OrCAD Schematich and PCB? I am still
running V9.2 here and am very reluctant to upgrade to Cadence.

But I also have a lot of designs in OrCAD....

Meindert


Nico Coesel

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 8:47:17 AM7/31/08
to
lynchaj <lyn...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Jul 30, 11:27=A0am, b...@barrk.net (Blackwater) wrote:
>> Um ... has there been some kind of conspiracy at work over
>> the past few years to totally drain the marketplace of
>> decent PCB layout/routing software ???
>>
>> Circuitmaker, Protel, Traxmaker ... the sub-$200 kind of
>> goodies that combined all the good features with intuitive
>> no-BS interfaces - gone. Seems they've all been bought-up
>> and destroyed by Altium - which will now generously sell you
>> their "complete system" for more than your slightly-used
>> SUV will get you at trade-in nowadays.
>>
>> Well, I don't *need* a "complete system" ... I just need to
>> be able to blast out smallish PCBs using mostly manual routing
>> and create files that the cheap commercial boardmakers can
>> use with their latest machines (lately we seem to see a lot
>> more boards produced by milling technology).
>>
>>

>> Is there any hope ? Something I've missed ? Winders ? Linux ?
>> Address of the "Society For The Prevention of Software Rip-Offs" ???
>
>Hi,
>
>I recommend the combination of KiCad and FreeRouting.net. It is an
>almost unbeatable combination.
>
>KiCad is free as in beer and speech, runs on Windows and Linux. It
>has an interface to use FreeRouting.net for autorouting or manual
>routing of PCB traces.

I tried KiCad last night, but I'm not that impressed. The user
interface is a bit clumsy and I can't find shortcuts. I like CAD
software where most elementary operations have shortcuts so you don't
need the mouse too much.

rickman

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 9:39:43 AM7/31/08
to
On Jul 31, 8:47 am, n...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:

Take a look at FreePCB. Nearly all of the commands are through the Fx
keys. In fact, the original versions did not support many commands
via the right mouse button or through the menus. In fact, you
couldn't even click the hot key labels at the bottom of the screen.
That has been changed so that you typically have three options on how
to invoke a command and many have four (menu, right click menu,
clickable hot key label and the hot key itself).

I have been using it enough that I am used to it. There were a few
things I had to get used to, but *nothing* like learning Eagle. I
think the one that bothered me the most is that when you click
something on the screen, if there is overlap it will select a part
first. This can make it hard to select a net or vertex. But that is
solved by using the selection mask on the left side of the screen. So
it works pretty well and a lot of the rough edges have been smoothed
off.

Since it is not commercial software, but rather a program that was
written for the author to use, it gets changed when a rough edge is
pointed out. You don't have to deal with a bureaucracy to get
something improved.

There is a Yahoo group for support, or better, the forum on the
freepcb.com web page which is very active. A couple of people write
supporting software to provide XYRS files, documentation and the
like. All in all it is pretty sweet!

Rick

Scott Seidman

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 9:54:41 AM7/31/08
to
b...@barrk.net (Blackwater) wrote in news:489081d0.15733031
@news.east.earthlink.net:

> Um ... has there been some kind of conspiracy at work over
> the past few years to totally drain the marketplace of
> decent PCB layout/routing software ???

4pcb has a decent free package. Slightly cripple until after your first
order of a board with them, but fully enabled afterward.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Robert

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 10:05:06 AM7/31/08
to
=?ISO-8859-15?Q?R=FCdiger?= Leibrandt <qui...@informatik.uni-bremen.de>
wrote in news:g6q1nv$5bk$1...@fortuna.zfn.uni-bremen.de:

> Cadsoft: EAGLE
>
> For free in use for private, noncommercial and with limited
> capabilites in PCB-size and layers. I use it professionayl at work in
> a payed-for version able to do bigger PCBs and more layers than the
> outer two.
>

Hello everyone,

Some time back, I was looking into Eagle and ran across some complaints about
intellectual property rights. Here is a link to the one that stuck in my
mind.

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/browse_frm/thread/f794e82d2
6b59e18/d7cf4149edb93ac7?q=*-*-website+reus

Has anyone using Eagle run into problems?

Robert

Guy Macon

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 10:58:43 AM7/31/08
to


Robert Lacoste wrote:

>Give a try to Proteus (www.labcenter.co.uk), we have switched
>to it from more expensive packages a couple of years ago and
>we are delighted. Especially with the mixed signal VSM simulator
>of course but the PCB design suite has all the features we
>need even for quite complex RF designs.

Interesting product! The prices seem quite reasonable
for what you get.

Current prices:

For 150 Pounds Sterling (~300 UD Dollars) you get:
500 pins maximum,
One Power Planes per layer
Standard Autorouting (not Rip-up and Retry)
No 3D Board Visualisation
No ODB++ Manufacturing Output
No Gate-Swap Optimizer
No Autoplace

For 295 Pounds Sterling (~590 US Dollars) you get:
The above features, except 1000 pins maximum.

For 395 Pounds Sterling (~790 US Dollars) you get:
The above features, except 2000 pins maximum.

For 595 Pounds Sterling (~1190 US Dollars) you get:
1000 pins maximum,
Unlimited Power Planes per layer,
Rip-up and Retry Autorouting
3D Board Visualisation
ODB++ Manufacturing Output
Gate-Swap Optimizer
Autoplace

For 995 Pounds Sterling (~1980 US Dollars) you get:
The above features, except 2000 pins maximum.

For 1225 Pounds Sterling (~2450 US Dollars) you get:
The above features with unlimited pins.

All of the above come with basic simulation.
For advanced simulation, add 195 Pounds Sterling
(~390 US Dollars).

Thet also offer Microcontroller Simulation for
ARM, AVR, HC11, PIC, 8051, Basic Stamp and USB
at prices ranging from 150 Pounds Sterling
(~300 US Dollars) to 395 Pounds Sterling
(~790 US Dollars).

A free demo is available (save and print disabled).

References:
http://www.labcenter.co.uk/ordering/cprices.cfm
http://www.labcenter.co.uk/products/pcb_overview.cfm
http://www.labcenter.co.uk/products/schematic.cfm
http://www.labcenter.co.uk/products/pcblayout.cfm
http://www.labcenter.co.uk/products/basicsim.cfm
http://www.labcenter.co.uk/products/advancedsim.cfm
http://www.labcenter.co.uk/products/vsm_overview.cfm
http://www.labcenter.co.uk/vmodels/peripherals.cfm
http://www.labcenter.co.uk/download/prodemo_download.cfm

Leon

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 2:20:32 PM7/31/08
to
On 31 Jul, 13:33, "Meindert Sprang" <m...@NOJUNKcustomORSPAMware.nl>
wrote:

The Pulsonix software I use does a good job importing OrCAD designs:

http://www.pulsonix.com

Leon

rickman

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 2:41:32 PM7/31/08
to

I have to say that is one of the stranger marketing concepts I have
ever heard of. Provide free software so that your potential customers
can use your services, but cripple it for their first order!

When you say crippled, is that in terms of functionality or working
with a third party?

Rick

JeffM

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 2:49:31 PM7/31/08
to
>Joel Koltner wrote:
>> 1) Most companies stick with what they started with, because
>>once something has become "the company standard"
>>anything different has to be overwhelmingly better
>>to get most companies to change. Some of the reluctance to change
>>is legitimate -- there are real re-training/re-entry costs involved
>>
JSprocket wrote:
>The almost total absence of inter- operability
>is probably the main factor. You soon build up
>a whole lot of designs that you need to continue to support.
>There's no chance for the most part
>of transferring them to a new system,
>so unless there's an overwhelming reason
>(you [can't] get by without a feature that's not supported,

>or the vendor goes bust), there's a positive disincentive to change.

I noted before how an inciteful bureaucrat had the opportunity
(and I'll extend that to *the responsibility*) to make this right
way back in the dark ages:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/afc5007ff80f869a/591354e47bc759d4?q=*-*-*-good-one+ODF+a-standard-format+proprietary+*-bugs-me+a.protocol+National-Bureau-*-*+magic-*+zzz+*-*-*-*-send-documents-to-*-government-*-*-*-*
news:dfa04c24-c375-4b71...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com

Scott Seidman

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 2:56:00 PM7/31/08
to
rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote in news:360a548d-d9e3-4fcf-8200-
34fc73...@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

It starts out fully functional for use with 4PCB, but it won't produce
Gerber files. After you purchase one board from 4PCB, it will produce
Gerber files.

It's not that bad an idea. You have to produce a reasonably-priced board
with 4pcb, the guys that gave you the software, then you can use it with
whoever you want.

JeffM

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 2:58:59 PM7/31/08
to
Robert wrote:
>Some time back, I was looking into Eagle
>and ran across some complaints about intellectual property rights.
>Here is a link to the one that stuck in my mind.
>http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/browse_frm/thread/f794e82d2
> 6b59e18/d7cf4149edb93ac7?q=*-*-website+reus

Here's the un-broken link about Cadsoft's DRM:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/browse_frm/thread/f794e82d26b59e18/d7cf4149edb93ac7?q=*-*-website+reuse+paying.*+*-I-will-switch+cracked-*+*.would.not.help.*+zzz+after-*-*-version-*+copied+*.*.unlock.*.designs+*-*-*-*-exchange-*-*-*-*-third-party+reused+qq+*-*-single-bit-*-*-*-*+useless+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened

I assume you're using Outbreaks In Excess to read Usenet. 8-(

Guy Macon

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 3:55:57 PM7/31/08
to


Scott Seidman wrote:
>
>rickman wrote:


>
>>Scott Seidman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 4pcb has a decent free package. Slightly cripple until
>>> after your first order of a board with them, but fully
>>> enabled afterward.
>>
>> I have to say that is one of the stranger marketing concepts I have
>> ever heard of. Provide free software so that your potential customers
>> can use your services, but cripple it for their first order!
>>
>> When you say crippled, is that in terms of functionality or working
>> with a third party?
>

>It starts out fully functional for use with 4PCB, but it won't produce
>Gerber files. After you purchase one board from 4PCB, it will produce
>Gerber files.
>
>It's not that bad an idea. You have to produce a reasonably-priced
>board with 4pcb, the guys that gave you the software, then you can
>use it with whoever you want.

It has another advantage; some corporations make it really hard
to buy software, but have no problem with buying PCBs. :)

Guy Macon

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 4:01:55 PM7/31/08
to

cbarn...@aol.com

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 5:07:28 PM7/31/08
to
On Jul 30, 4:27�pm, b...@barrk.net (Blackwater) wrote:
> Um ... has there been some kind of conspiracy at work over
> the past few years to totally drain the marketplace of
> decent PCB layout/routing software ???
>
> Circuitmaker, Protel, Traxmaker ... the sub-$200 kind of
> goodies that combined all the good features with intuitive
> no-BS interfaces - gone. Seems they've all been bought-up
> and destroyed by Altium - which will now generously sell you
> their "complete system" for more than your slightly-used
> SUV will get you at trade-in nowadays.
>
> Well, I don't *need* a "complete system" ... I just need to
> be able to blast out smallish PCBs using mostly manual routing
> and create files that the cheap commercial boardmakers can
> use with their latest machines (lately we seem to see a lot
> more boards produced by milling technology).
>
> Oh sure, some of those boardmakers will generously let you
> use THEIR layout software ... "theirs" in that they've tweaked
> it so you can only send the design to THEIR company instead
> of a competitors - unless you want to toss all your old
> designs and start from scratch.
>
> Conspiracy, or racket ?
>
> For now I'm using my creaky old TraxMaker-3 program. GREAT
> package, EASY to use, LOTS of options, point-n-click and
> spin and drag stuff anywhere you want ... but it's OLD and
> can't do the trick for milled boards. OK if I want to make
> phototemplates and do a few prototype boards myself, but ...
>
> I've looked at some of free/cheap stuff - Vutrax, Pad2Pad,
> Eagle etc and frankly they STINK. Not intuitive or overly
> attached to autorouting or miniscule component libraries
> or mostly some combo of "all of the above".
>
> Is there some middle ground left out there SOMEWHERE ?
> I'd love something that has much the look & feel & ease
> of Traxmaker but a more modern selection of capabilities,
> libraries and export options. My wallet isn't that deep
> however... I could afford maybe $250-$350, somewhere in
> there.
>
> Is there any hope ? Something I've missed ? Winders ? Linux ?
> Address of the "Society For The Prevention of Software Rip-Offs" ???

Have a look at bartels lite. http://www.bartels.de/bae/bae_en.htm

JeffM

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 5:28:01 PM7/31/08
to

Jim Granville

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 5:42:19 PM7/31/08
to

Quite a few systems can Import OrCAD SCHs, and some
can import OrCAD PCBs, tho OrCAD PCB is much less common
than the SCH, so fewer bother with that conversion.

-jg

jo...@jjdesigns.fsnet.co.uk

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 5:48:33 PM7/31/08
to

James Arthur wrote:

[...]


> > 'Till your mention, hadn't come across it before.
> > Just trying the demo'. Seems fast, no fluff. I really like the milling and
> > HPGL stuff , though can't seem to find any library items.
> >
> >
>
> The library is extensive, and super-easily accessed, extended,
> and modified: items pop up in a toolbar on the right-hand side
> of the screen.
>
> Options-->Show Macro-Library.
>
> (I'm not sure how much library you get with the demo.)
>
> Oh, it's limited to four trace layers, if that's a problem
> for some. It's not for me. Large boards are fine, metric
> or english units, etc.
>
> I've more than recouped my 39 euros just in the time saved
> learning the program and its ease of use -- it's logical and
> clean to where I've scarcely needed to check the help files.
> Just click the icons, and it does what I want. Fast.
>
> It really is a sweet program.
>
> Cheers,
> James Arthur

Found it thanks!. Has all the bits I was looking for.
My specific needs tend to revolve around knocking up (sodding!)
surface mount chip adapters, with maybe one or two extra components
added for convenience.
For the sake of an hours work with the PC, printer and some etchant I
can have a prototype in hand.
My existing PCB prog' is still a ballache to use even though I've
done a dozen adapters on it over the past year.
Looks like I'll be spending cash on Sprint :)

James Arthur

unread,
Jul 31, 2008, 6:17:01 PM7/31/08
to

You'll like the Footprint Wizard then. Specify or design a pad,
enter horizontal and vertical spacings, number of rows and cols,
hit 'go', and the program generates the pattern, with perfect spacing.

Select the lot with the mouse, store it as a macro, and you've got
a new footprint.

Great for BGAs, SMD ICs, connectors, etc.

> For the sake of an hours work with the PC, printer and some etchant I
> can have a prototype in hand.

Yep. For that use and this price it's hard to go wrong.

Cheers,
James Arthur

Robert

unread,
Aug 1, 2008, 10:13:23 AM8/1/08
to
JeffM <jef...@email.com> wrote in
news:2aaf703c-f391-41b4...@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

Good morning JeffM,

I noticed that XNews split the URL across two lines. Unfortunately
computer / software annoyances have become too common and several projects
are too far behind. I just let it go.

Thanks for providing it on one line.

Robert

JosephKK

unread,
Aug 2, 2008, 4:26:24 AM8/2/08
to

Balderdash. MSwin products since Windoes 3.0 had different options
available for right click and left click. MacOS also had that
difference since it accepted multi button pointing devices. The
fundamental capability was pre-existent in the earliest X in the Xerox
PARC Alto workstations.

I have used several cad / ecad packages over the years, learning the
second was the hardest.

Frithiof Jensen

unread,
Aug 2, 2008, 5:54:11 AM8/2/08
to

"Blackwater" <b...@barrk.net> skrev i meddelelsen
news:489081d0...@news.east.earthlink.net...

> Is there some middle ground left out there SOMEWHERE ?
> I'd love something that has much the look & feel & ease
> of Traxmaker but a more modern selection of capabilities,
> libraries and export options. My wallet isn't that deep
> however... I could afford maybe $250-$350, somewhere in
> there.
>
> Is there any hope ? Something I've missed ? Winders ? Linux ?
> Address of the "Society For The Prevention of Software Rip-Offs" ???
>

TARGET perhaps? http://www.pcb-pool.com/ppuk/service_downloads.html or
http://server.ibfriedrich.com/wiki/ibfwikien/index.php?title=Main_Page

This is a German outfit & therefore weird; Who else would slap titties &
latex onto the sales slip of a CAD package ;-)
The product itself is, IMO, solid enough. The freebie (full) version is
bound to pcb-pool though.

rickman

unread,
Aug 2, 2008, 8:38:57 AM8/2/08
to
On Jul 31, 12:47 am, James Morrison <sp...@stratforddigital.ca> wrote:
>
> Most modern GUI's are based around the idea that you pick the object (think
> right-click on a desktop) and then select the function (delete, copy, ...).
> But when entering schematics and laying out a board, one usually wants to
> perform the same function many times on multiple objects. So that is how
> EAGLE has traditionally functioned: pick function then apply to multiple
> objects until another function is picked.
>
> But with newbies who are used to object selecting this seems odd and takes
> some getting used to. EAGLE 5 now allows the user to do both: right click
> and pick function or use the traditional EAGLE model which is actually more
> efficient once you get the hang of it.

That is certainly a matter of opinion. I used Eagle some years ago to
produce a small board. I had to go through the learning curve to get
used to the odd way of operating the interface. I then returned to
the tool about 6 months later to make some small changes. I had to go
through the learning curve all over again! The "traditional"
interface is so counter intuitive that I couldn't just sit down and
use it even though I had used it before.

I would think that having both modes available at once would be even
worse! Having to right click objects to perform selection has got to
be a PITA. I don't think I have ever seen a UI that didn't let you
use left click to select or group select. Life is too short and work
hours are too long to waste time learning new user interfaces every
time I pick up a tool.


> CadSoft (a completely separate business entity) does have a database of
> license owners. The license card is the primary method of establishing
> ownership for upgrade pricing, though I haven't had anyone ask about the
> pricing from EAGLE 2. I'm sure there are other ways to establish ownership
> in extreme cases but that would be up to CadSoft to determine.

Does this list include legal owners of the software who have been
infected with the "Eagle virus"?


> If you want to see the latest revision just download from cadsoftusa.com.
> The freeware version will run fine and the license can be upgraded without
> needing a reinstall.

Here is the real reason that I will never use Eagle again... the
licensing! A company that will sever your contract because you used a
portion of some design that used a portion of some design that used a
part that had been used by a cracked version of the tool is just not
worth considering for any professional development.

I can protect myself from viruses in email, in Word documents or over
the Internet. But there is no software available that will protect me
from the virus of a part from a cracked Eagle program. Until you fix
the flaw in your licensing scheme, you are putting all of your
customers at risk. But then you wouldn't see it that way would you?
Anyone who encounters this "virus" is no longer a customer!!!

Rick

Grant Edwards

unread,
Aug 2, 2008, 9:24:26 AM8/2/08
to
On 2008-08-02, Frithiof Jensen <frithio...@diespammerdie.jensen.tdcadsl.dk> wrote:

> TARGET perhaps?
> http://www.pcb-pool.com/ppuk/service_downloads.html or
> http://server.ibfriedrich.com/wiki/ibfwikien/index.php?title=Main_Page
>
> This is a German outfit & therefore weird; Who else would slap
> titties & latex onto the sales slip of a CAD package ;-)

It looks to me like it's supposed to be metal rather than
latex, but it is indeed odd.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! I feel partially
at hydrogenated!
visi.com

Mark Borgerson

unread,
Aug 2, 2008, 10:32:28 AM8/2/08
to
In article <oN6dnYx84ImX_QnV...@posted.usinternet>,
gra...@visi.com says...

> On 2008-08-02, Frithiof Jensen <frithio...@diespammerdie.jensen.tdcadsl.dk> wrote:
>
> > TARGET perhaps?
> > http://www.pcb-pool.com/ppuk/service_downloads.html or
> > http://server.ibfriedrich.com/wiki/ibfwikien/index.php?title=Main_Page
> >
> > This is a German outfit & therefore weird; Who else would slap
> > titties & latex onto the sales slip of a CAD package ;-)
>
> It looks to me like it's supposed to be metal rather than
> latex, but it is indeed odd.
>
>
Maybe it's an illustration of their 3D modeling capability. ;-)

Mark Borgerson

Didi

unread,
Aug 2, 2008, 5:49:42 PM8/2/08
to
James Arthur wrote:
> ....

> You'll like the Footprint Wizard then. Specify or design a pad,
> enter horizontal and vertical spacings, number of rows and cols,
> hit 'go', and the program generates the pattern, with perfect spacing.
>
> Select the lot with the mouse, store it as a macro, and you've got
> a new footprint.
>
> Great for BGAs, SMD ICs, connectors, etc.

I thought most if not all could do that - looks like I have been
overestimating
the development over the years....
I use my (own written back in the 80-s) graphics editor, selecting
some
stuff then repeating it like an array is a basic feature. Then
selecting some
objects and defining that as a block - insertable at various scale
factors
and angles - is also inherent...
Like you said you were used to I am doing all the routing by hand,
just
using the editor. Here is a demo-mess picture I did not so long ago,
shows
a board and my 20+ years old editor (runing under an old system
emulated
in a DPS window, though - much faster than back then):

http://tgi-sci.com/dsv/dsvdemo.gif

Didi

------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments

http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/

Original message: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/msg/0adb3774bdcf553e?dmode=source

john jardine

unread,
Aug 3, 2008, 10:44:51 AM8/3/08
to

"James Arthur" <bogus...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:xRqkk.518$aA5.243@trnddc05...
> jo...@jjdesigns.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
[...]

>
> You'll like the Footprint Wizard then. Specify or design a pad,
> enter horizontal and vertical spacings, number of rows and cols,
> hit 'go', and the program generates the pattern, with perfect spacing.
>
> Select the lot with the mouse, store it as a macro, and you've got
> a new footprint.
>
> Great for BGAs, SMD ICs, connectors, etc.
>
> > For the sake of an hours work with the PC, printer and some etchant I
> > can have a prototype in hand.
>
> Yep. For that use and this price it's hard to go wrong.
>
> Cheers,
> James Arthur

Yep. Bought one.
Did an adapter PCB. Pleasure to not need the help file.
Methinks Sprint and I will be friends.

Alt Beer

unread,
Aug 3, 2008, 1:27:48 PM8/3/08
to

"Blackwater" <b...@barrk.net> wrote in message
news:489081d0...@news.east.earthlink.net...

> Is there any hope ? Something I've missed ? Winders ? Linux ?
> Address of the "Society For The Prevention of Software Rip-Offs" ???


CIRCAD Version 5 (OmniGlyph)
http://www.holophase.com/index.html
One of the easiest to learn. I was laying out boards after a few mins.
Logical user interface. Eagle V4 it drives me nuts, tried it several times
and gave up each time. The user manual and tutorial also crap.


rickman

unread,
Aug 3, 2008, 1:40:18 PM8/3/08
to
On Aug 3, 10:44 am, "john jardine" <john.jard...@idnet.co.uk> wrote:
> "James Arthur" <bogusabd...@verizon.net> wrote in message

I'm curious, what does this package do that FreePCB doesn't?

Rick

Grant Edwards

unread,
Aug 3, 2008, 2:33:01 PM8/3/08
to

At least Eagle isn't a "windows-only" product. Even if it
takes a bit longer to learn Eagle, it's certainly nothing in
comparison to the time/money one would have to waste installing
Windows and learning to use and maintain it. :)

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! If I had a Q-TIP, I
at could prevent th' collapse
visi.com of NEGOTIATIONS!!

rickman

unread,
Aug 3, 2008, 3:02:02 PM8/3/08
to
On Aug 3, 2:33 pm, Grant Edwards <gra...@visi.com> wrote:

> On 2008-08-03, Alt Beer <exam...@example.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Blackwater" <b...@barrk.net> wrote in message
> >news:489081d0...@news.east.earthlink.net...
> >> Is there any hope ? Something I've missed ? Winders ? Linux ?
> >> Address of the "Society For The Prevention of Software Rip-Offs" ???
>
> > CIRCAD Version 5 (OmniGlyph)
> >http://www.holophase.com/index.html
> > One of the easiest to learn. I was laying out boards after a few mins.
> > Logical user interface. Eagle V4 it drives me nuts, tried it several times
> > and gave up each time. The user manual and tutorial also crap.
>
> At least Eagle isn't a "windows-only" product. Even if it
> takes a bit longer to learn Eagle, it's certainly nothing in
> comparison to the time/money one would have to waste installing
> Windows and learning to use and maintain it. :)

There are any number of better options that run under other operating
systems. My understanding is that there aren't many programs that
won't run under MacOS or Linux using available tools. I am told that
FreePCB works just fine on both of these systems.

Rick

Guy Macon

unread,
Aug 3, 2008, 10:46:57 PM8/3/08
to


Grant Edwards wrote:

>At least Eagle isn't a "windows-only" product. Even if it
>takes a bit longer to learn Eagle, it's certainly nothing in
>comparison to the time/money one would have to waste installing
>Windows and learning to use and maintain it. :)

Alas, there are still a number of important CAD packages that
run only on Windows (I am looking at you, AutoCAD) so I run
windows in a VMWare virtual Machine under Linux. With a
stripped-down version of Windows (using XPLite) and only one
application that loads full-scree from the startup folder,
you hardly have to think about the fact that the application
is running under Windows. And the VMWare snapshot feature
lets you go back when Windows becomes corrupted or flaky.

James Arthur

unread,
Aug 4, 2008, 12:05:36 AM8/4/08
to
Didi wrote:

> I use my (own written back in the 80-s) graphics
> editor, selecting some stuff then repeating it like
> an array is a basic feature. Then selecting some
> objects and defining that as a block - insertable
> at various scale factors and angles - is also inherent...
>
> Like you said you were used to I am doing all the
> routing by hand, just using the editor. Here is a demo-mess
> picture I did not so long ago, shows a board and my 20+ years
> old editor (runing under an old system emulated
> in a DPS window, though - much faster than back then):
>
> http://tgi-sci.com/dsv/dsvdemo.gif
>
> Didi
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments
>
> http://www.tgi-sci.com

That's very nice artwork Dimiter. If it's your own
graphics editor, how do you get PCB fabrication information
out of it? (Gerber files, or photoplots, etc.)

Cheers,
James Arthur

James Arthur

unread,
Aug 4, 2008, 12:15:27 AM8/4/08
to

Nothing that I'm aware of, except perhaps Sprint-Layout
has a wonderful, sensible menu system that makes it super
easy to use. I loathe wasted multi-level clicks,
mode-changes, etc. I chose Sprint-Layout as being small,
fast, inexpensive, yet professionally supported. Small,
nimble software that really works is a joy to use.

FreePCB looks cool and has lots of extra features. That's
enticing, but not always good--I downloaded it for a look
when I've got the time to learn it--but I'm likely to
keep using Sprint-Layout for the time being. It works,
gets the job done, and it's actually fun.

Cheers,
James Arthur

Didi

unread,
Aug 4, 2008, 4:00:41 AM8/4/08
to
James Arthur wrote:
> ....

>
> That's very nice artwork Dimiter. If it's your own
> graphics editor, how do you get PCB fabrication information
> out of it? (Gerber files, or photoplots, etc.)

Thanks, the PCB photos are indeed artworked over a DPS
screenshot - I did it just for ad purposes (my idea for that,
that is :-).

The graphics editor has Gerber, hpgl, Excellon and some other
(long dead) output formats. I remember reverse engineering the
Excellon format by looking at piece of punched tape back then
(the fact that is is so simple did help a lot, of course).
It used to run on a 6809 based system - during the 80-s, the PC
based PCB stuff was just unusable compared to it. Now the emulated
incarnation is about 20 times faster (than the 2 x 2MHz 6809 it
used to run on) and is still quite good for my layouts, it waits
for me, I don't have to wait for it at all really.

Didi

------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments

http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/

Original message: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/msg/fcf94963a8a59e82?dmode=source

JeffM

unread,
Aug 4, 2008, 12:19:46 PM8/4/08
to
>>>john@ jjdesigns.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
>>>>'Till your mention, hadn't come across it before.
>>>>Just trying the demo'. Seems fast, no fluff. I really like the milling
>>>>and HPGL stuff , though can't seem to find any library items.
>>>>
>>James Arthur wrote:
>>>The library is extensive, and super-easily accessed, extended,
>>>and modified: items pop up in a toolbar on the right-hand side
>>>of the screen.
>>>
>>>Options-->Show Macro-Library.
>>>
>>>(I'm not sure how much library you get with the demo.)
>>>
>>>Oh, it's limited to four trace layers, if that's a problem
>>>for some. It's not for me. Large boards are fine,
>>>metric or english units, etc.
>>>
>>>I've more than recouped my 39 euros just in the time saved
>>>learning the program and its ease of use -- it's logical and
>>>clean to where I've scarcely needed to check the help files.
>>>Just click the icons, and it does what I want. Fast.
>>>
>>>It really is a sweet program.
>>>
>john@ jjdesigns.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
>>Found it thanks!. Has all the bits I was looking for.
>>My specific needs tend to revolve around knocking up (sodding!)
>>surface mount chip adapters, with maybe one or two extra components
>>added for convenience.
>>
James Arthur wrote:
>You'll like the Footprint Wizard then. Specify or design a pad,
>enter horizontal and vertical spacings, number of rows and cols,
>hit 'go', and the program generates the pattern, with perfect spacing.
>
>Select the lot with the mouse, store it as a macro,
>and you've got a new footprint.
>
>Great for BGAs, SMD ICs, connectors, etc.
>
>>For the sake of an hours work with the PC, printer
>>and some etchant I can have a prototype in hand.
>
>Yep. For that use and this price it's hard to go wrong.

For all that you guys *did* blockquote in this bit of salesmanship,
you managed to snip out the _name_ of the app
for those who would stumble upon this post: Sprint-Layout.

Alt Beer

unread,
Aug 4, 2008, 3:20:56 PM8/4/08
to
> For all that you guys *did* blockquote in this bit of salesmanship,
> you managed to snip out the _name_ of the app
> for those who would stumble upon this post: Sprint-Layout.

Just tried the demo. Managed to create a layout without reading the manual.
The icons and mouse clicks work the way you think they should... well they
did for me. I'll continue trying it.

rickman

unread,
Aug 4, 2008, 4:58:59 PM8/4/08
to
On Aug 4, 12:19 pm, JeffM <jef...@email.com> wrote:
>
> >john@ jjdesigns.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> >>Found it thanks!. Has all the bits I was looking for.
> >>My specific needs tend to revolve around knocking up (sodding!)
> >>surface mount chip adapters, with maybe one or two extra components
> >>added for convenience.
>
> James Arthur wrote:
> >You'll like the Footprint Wizard then. Specify or design a pad,
> >enter horizontal and vertical spacings, number of rows and cols,
> >hit 'go', and the program generates the pattern, with perfect spacing.
>
> >Select the lot with the mouse, store it as a macro,
> >and you've got a new footprint.
>
> >Great for BGAs, SMD ICs, connectors, etc.
>
> >>For the sake of an hours work with the PC, printer
> >>and some etchant I can have a prototype in hand.
>
> >Yep. For that use and this price it's hard to go wrong.
>
> For all that you guys *did* blockquote in this bit of salesmanship,
> you managed to snip out the _name_ of the app
> for those who would stumble upon this post: Sprint-Layout.

When using copper pour, does this program tell you if any sections of
the copper are not connected to the others? Does it do a proper job
of keeping track of pin connectivity when pins are connected to the
copper pour (same thing really)?

I used FreePCB and it did not do this. You could have traces cut up a
copper plane and it would not warn you that they were disconnected.
It would also not warn you if this resulted in pins being unconnected
from the rest of the net. Once you connect a pin to the copper plane,
it considers it connected to the entire net.

I don't recall FreePCB having any other issues that concerned me. It
also has a pretty nice user interface and did not require a lot of
learning except for how to do a few things like connect pins to copper
pours. But it has a very helpful bunch of users and an active support
forum. The support is actually ***MUCH*** better than any commercial
product I have ever used!

Rick

Guy Macon

unread,
Aug 6, 2008, 10:09:54 PM8/6/08
to


Alt Beer wrote:

>Just tried the demo. Managed to create a layout without reading the manual.
>The icons and mouse clicks work the way you think they should... well they
>did for me. I'll continue trying it.

Find it here:
http://www.abacom-online.de/uk/html/sprint-layout.html

sPlan: schematic editor

Sprint-Layout: PWB Layout

LochMaster: tool for strip board projects

FrontDesigner: front panel CAD

DMM-ProfiLab / Digital-ProfiLab / ProfiLab-Expert
/ AudioWave" a seroes of products somewhat like labview

Each costs 39.9 Euros (roughly 61.6 US Dollars).

Alt Beer

unread,
Aug 7, 2008, 5:58:54 AM8/7/08
to
"Guy Macon" <http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote in message
news:HOCdnTwj94H...@giganews.com...


The people at Eagle should try it out and learn something from the
experience.... icons and mouse clicks working the way you think they should

Chris Maryan

unread,
Aug 7, 2008, 9:48:26 AM8/7/08
to

Actually, the latest version of Eagle (5.x) goes a long way towards
being more standard-behaviour compliant (right click context menu,
ctrl-z for undo, etc.)

Joel Koltner

unread,
Aug 7, 2008, 1:38:46 PM8/7/08
to
"Alt Beer" <exa...@example.com> wrote in message
news:nHzmk.50191$hR4...@newsfe24.ams2...

> The people at Eagle should try it out and learn something from the
> experience.... icons and mouse clicks working the way you think they should

I fully expect that the folks at Eagle know how most people think icons and
mouse clicks should work and are simply convinced that there way is better.
:-)

I used ProBoard/ProNet way-back-when on an Amiga computer and it was the same
way -- made little attempt to use the standard Amiga OS conventions of
"mousing around," instead substituting what they thought was "better."


Robert Baer

unread,
Aug 10, 2008, 2:56:43 AM8/10/08
to
May i presume that Sprint-Layout allows one to make all of the
requisite Gerbers?

Guy Macon

unread,
Aug 11, 2008, 4:15:44 AM8/11/08
to

Yup. Gerber for the traces, Excellon for the drilling, and HPGL
with tool path calculation if you prefer isolation milling.
They also have a .lay file format with some vague talk of extra
dimensioning info.

Alt Beer

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 4:25:46 AM8/13/08
to
>>> Alt Beer wrote:
>>>
>>>>Just tried the demo. Managed to create a layout without reading the
>>>>manual.
>>>>The icons and mouse clicks work the way you think they should... well
>>>>they
>>>>did for me. I'll continue trying it.
>>>
>>> Find it here:
>>May i presume that Sprint-Layout allows one to make all of the
>>requisite Gerbers?
>
> Yup. Gerber for the traces, Excellon for the drilling, and HPGL
> with tool path calculation if you prefer isolation milling.
> They also have a .lay file format with some vague talk of extra
> dimensioning info.
> --
> Guy Macon
> <http://www.GuyMacon.com/>

Re Sprint-Layout
I am trying to make a standard 16 pin dil footprint with rectangular pads
with through hole. There doesn't seem to be a way to specify a drill hole
for other than a round pad? Rectangular pads are assumed to be smt.
Am I doing something wrong?

James Arthur

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 11:37:51 AM8/13/08
to

I can edit any pad, and make it any size/shape I want,
with any drill size.

Sprint-Layout comes with a bunch of DIP patterns pre-defined,
so I'm not sure exactly why you need a custom one, but here's
one way to do it:

1) Open the Macro toolbar by clicking on the icon, then
2) choose a DIP pattern from the list.

The pattern will appear in the bottom of the window.

3) Drag and drop the pattern onto your board.

4) Unlock the pattern by clicking on the Unlock icon.

This breaks the DIP pattern into individual pads. Now
you can edit each pad however you want.

If the Properties sidebar isn't visible, right-click a
pad to turn it on.

There you can adjust the pad shape, dimensions, and
drill size.

If you want to save the edit as a new pattern, select
the whole, lock it all together with the "Lock" icon,
then copy at will, or save as a new macro.

HTH,
James Arthur

Alt Beer

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 4:02:07 PM8/13/08
to

"James Arthur" <bogus...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:jdDok.984$T91.844@trnddc04...

Excellent, many thanks.
This is the best layout program I've tried.

john jardine

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 6:49:25 PM8/13/08
to

"James Arthur" <bogus...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:jdDok.984$T91.844@trnddc04...

Delightfully straightforward.
As it happens, I've just finished a design for an industrial test unit and
not looking forward to building up a prototype for demonstrating.
The prog' has proved easy to use, so thought I'd quickly lay down two
relays and a connector strip on a PCB, as these are a ballache to wire up
by hand. 3 hours of 'might as well just add this other bit' and the
complete PCB popped out.
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3205/freday3.gif
It's 'iffy' but I don't really enjoy this kind of thing and there is no way
I plan to do anything bigger,( 3 hours sat in front of a screen and I'm
chewing carpet) but I'm surprised how much could be done in the time. Sprint
was obviously written by some kind of engineering person.

Normally sub' out PCB designs but as this test unit is a one-off, then may
as well use the layout and save a few bob :).

Joerg

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 6:57:54 PM8/13/08
to


Neat. Hint: If this is for your typical 13A UK mains circuit make the
traces fatter and mind the limitations of thermal reliefs if used.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

James Arthur

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 7:22:10 PM8/13/08
to
john jardine wrote:

<snip Sprint-Layout DIP-pattern-making directions>

> As it happens, I've just finished a design for an industrial test unit and
> not looking forward to building up a prototype for demonstrating.
> The prog' has proved easy to use, so thought I'd quickly lay down two
> relays and a connector strip on a PCB, as these are a ballache to wire up
> by hand. 3 hours of 'might as well just add this other bit' and the
> complete PCB popped out.
> http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3205/freday3.gif
> It's 'iffy' but I don't really enjoy this kind of thing and there is no way
> I plan to do anything bigger,( 3 hours sat in front of a screen and I'm
> chewing carpet) but I'm surprised how much could be done in the time. Sprint
> was obviously written by some kind of engineering person.

Nice looking board. I'm due for a layout or two myself.

Cheers,
James Arthur

Robert Baer

unread,
Aug 20, 2008, 3:25:38 AM8/20/08
to
Blackwater wrote:

> Um ... has there been some kind of conspiracy at work over
> the past few years to totally drain the marketplace of
> decent PCB layout/routing software ???
>
> Circuitmaker, Protel, Traxmaker ... the sub-$200 kind of
> goodies that combined all the good features with intuitive
> no-BS interfaces - gone. Seems they've all been bought-up
> and destroyed by Altium - which will now generously sell you
> their "complete system" for more than your slightly-used
> SUV will get you at trade-in nowadays.
>
> Well, I don't *need* a "complete system" ... I just need to
> be able to blast out smallish PCBs using mostly manual routing
> and create files that the cheap commercial boardmakers can
> use with their latest machines (lately we seem to see a lot
> more boards produced by milling technology).
>
> Oh sure, some of those boardmakers will generously let you
> use THEIR layout software ... "theirs" in that they've tweaked
> it so you can only send the design to THEIR company instead
> of a competitors - unless you want to toss all your old
> designs and start from scratch.
>
> Conspiracy, or racket ?
>
> For now I'm using my creaky old TraxMaker-3 program. GREAT
> package, EASY to use, LOTS of options, point-n-click and
> spin and drag stuff anywhere you want ... but it's OLD and
> can't do the trick for milled boards. OK if I want to make
> phototemplates and do a few prototype boards myself, but ...
>
> I've looked at some of free/cheap stuff - Vutrax, Pad2Pad,
> Eagle etc and frankly they STINK. Not intuitive or overly
> attached to autorouting or miniscule component libraries
> or mostly some combo of "all of the above".
>
> Is there some middle ground left out there SOMEWHERE ?
> I'd love something that has much the look & feel & ease
> of Traxmaker but a more modern selection of capabilities,
> libraries and export options. My wallet isn't that deep
> however... I could afford maybe $250-$350, somewhere in
> there.

>
> Is there any hope ? Something I've missed ? Winders ? Linux ?
> Address of the "Society For The Prevention of Software Rip-Offs" ???
>

Of all mentioned here, the two that seems to stand out are
Circad/OmniGlyph and Sprint-Layout.
Which of these is easiest to use for all PCB aspects from schematic
entry to making all of the requisite Gerbers in industry-standard form
(ie each side properly mirrored or not as required)?

steve

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Aug 20, 2008, 11:56:06 AM8/20/08
to
On Aug 3, 1:27 pm, "Alt Beer" <exam...@example.com> wrote:
> "Blackwater" <b...@barrk.net> wrote in message
>
> news:489081d0...@news.east.earthlink.net...
>
> > Is there any hope ? Something I've missed ? Winders ? Linux ?
> > Address of the "Society For The Prevention of Software Rip-Offs" ???
>
> CIRCAD Version 5 (OmniGlyph)http://www.holophase.com/index.html

> One of the easiest to learn.  I was laying out boards after a few mins.
> Logical user interface.  Eagle V4 it drives me nuts, tried it several times
> and gave up each time.  The user manual and tutorial also crap.

I had the same experience with Eagle, too bad they can't offer an
optional front end that follows the windows standard (for us folks
that prefer window applications).

Using Eagle is like driving in England on the other side of the rode
while standing on my head with a mirror as my only view of road, I
really have no interest in learning how to do that.

Chris H

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Aug 21, 2008, 3:31:29 AM8/21/08
to
In message
<f3a5a323-b309-4431...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
steve <bungalo...@yahoo.com> writes

Point of order we drive on the right side of the road. It's you who you
drive on the other side..... :-)

I use Proteus from Labcenter (www.labcenter.co.uk) Good systems
very well featured and not expensive.


--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

James Arthur

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Aug 21, 2008, 11:43:40 AM8/21/08
to

I have, like, and recommend Sprint-Layout, but AFAICT it does
not support netlists or netlist import from a schematic program.
I throw up the parts an' route 'em manually, which is what I'd do
anyhow (autorouters have never pleased me).

S-L lets you quickly click in rats-nest wiring to remind you
of where and what to route; I like that feature a lot.

If you want netlists don't forget FreePCB (www.freepcb.com), mentioned
by rickman. That looks pretty nice. Also consider
PCB from the gEDA project, http://www.geda.seul.org/

HTH,
James Arthur

Peter Bennett

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Aug 21, 2008, 9:15:45 PM8/21/08
to
On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:43:40 -0700 (PDT), James Arthur
<dagmarg...@yahoo.com> wrote:


>I have, like, and recommend Sprint-Layout, but AFAICT it does
>not support netlists or netlist import from a schematic program.
>I throw up the parts an' route 'em manually, which is what I'd do
>anyhow (autorouters have never pleased me).
>
>S-L lets you quickly click in rats-nest wiring to remind you
>of where and what to route; I like that feature a lot.

You say that Sprint-Layout does not support netlists, but the above
paragraph implies to me that there is _some_ transfer of connection
data from the related schematic program.

So, is there, or is there not, the ability to transfer component and
connection data from the schematic to PCB, whether by an explicit
netlist or otherwise? (Protel/Altium links between sch and pcb
without explicitly generating netlists.)


>
>If you want netlists don't forget FreePCB (www.freepcb.com), mentioned
>by rickman. That looks pretty nice. Also consider
>PCB from the gEDA project, http://www.geda.seul.org/
>
>HTH,
>James Arthur

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

Message has been deleted

James Arthur

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Aug 22, 2008, 1:44:03 AM8/22/08
to
On Aug 21, 6:15 pm, Peter Bennett <pete...@somewhere.invalid> wrote:

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -


> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:43:40 -0700 (PDT), James Arthur

> <dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >I have, like, and recommend Sprint-Layout, but AFAICT it does
> >not support netlists or netlist import from a schematic program.
> >I throw up the parts an' route 'em manually, which is what I'd do
> >anyhow (autorouters have never pleased me).

> >S-L lets you quickly click in rats-nest wiring to remind you
> >of where and what to route; I like that feature a lot.

> You say that Sprint-Layout does not support netlists, but the above
> paragraph implies to me that there is _some_ transfer of connection
> data from the related schematic program.

> So, is there, or is there not, the ability to transfer component and
> connection data from the schematic to PCB, whether by an explicit
> netlist or otherwise? (Protel/Altium links between sch and pcb
> without explicitly generating netlists.)

Not that I can detect.

Here's the website:
http://www.abacom-online.de/uk/html/sprint-layout.html

What I called call the rats-nest feature they call "connections /
rubberbands"; click point A, click point B, and a fine line appears
from A to B. You then route either manually or with the pin-to-pin
autorouter (works, could route better, IMO). Click the "remove
connections" button and the rubberbands for completed routes are
automatically removed (the thin reminder line disappears), leaving
the unfinished routes. The feature is described briefly on the
webpage above.

I find it super helpful; it keeps you from forgetting connections or
from making wrong ones. It's manual, but I like it.

Sprint-Layout does have a full complement of output files--
Gerber, Excellon, and isolation paths for PCB milling--
but no import or export of netlists AFAICT.

You could always e-mail them and ask to be
sure. I don't use those features, so I might've
missed something.

> >If you want netlists don't forget FreePCB (www.freepcb.com), mentioned
> >by rickman. That looks pretty nice. Also consider
> >PCB from the gEDA project,http://www.geda.seul.org/

Oh yes, another for the "free" list is KiCAD, which I assume
everyone has heard of. I haven't tried it.

http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/

Sprint-Layout works well for me so I'm likely
to stick with it, but it would be interesting to
hear reports about the other packages.

Cheers,
James Arthur

Leon

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Aug 22, 2008, 12:58:47 PM8/22/08
to

Pulsonix exports netlists in these formats:

Accel PCB
PADS PCB
Zuken Rinf (Cadstar and Visula)
P-CAD PCB
OrCAD II DOS
Viewdraw

Any netlist format can be generated using the Report Maker.

Leon

Joel Koltner

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Aug 22, 2008, 2:08:29 PM8/22/08
to
"Leon" <leo...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a1a115e6-f8bc-485c...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...

> Pulsonix exports netlists in these formats:

[deleted]

...Except that, unlike many pay-ware schematic capture programs, it can't
import "was/is" (ECO) files to update the schematic based on connectivity and
component changes made in your (non-Pulsonix) layout package of choice.

Granted, for many people this is probably a rather minor quibble -- if you've
already given up cross-probing and pin/gate swapping (as happens with most
scenarios where you're using schematic capture from a different vendor than
PCB layout), not being able to back annotate probably isn't that much more of
a loss.

---Joel

Chris Carlen

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Aug 25, 2008, 11:45:13 AM8/25/08
to
Chris H wrote:
> In message
> <f3a5a323-b309-4431...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> steve <bungalo...@yahoo.com> writes
>> On Aug 3, 1:27 pm, "Alt Beer" <exam...@example.com> wrote:
>>> "Blackwater" <b...@barrk.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:489081d0...@news.east.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>> > Is there any hope ? Something I've missed ? Winders ? Linux ?
>>> > Address of the "Society For The Prevention of Software Rip-Offs" ???
>>>
>>> CIRCAD Version 5 (OmniGlyph)http://www.holophase.com/index.html
>>> One of the easiest to learn. I was laying out boards after a few mins.
>>> Logical user interface. Eagle V4 it drives me nuts, tried it several
>>> times
>>> and gave up each time. The user manual and tutorial also crap.
>>
>> I had the same experience with Eagle, too bad they can't offer an
>> optional front end that follows the windows standard (for us folks
>> that prefer window applications).
>>
>> Using Eagle is like driving in England on the other side of the rode
>> while standing on my head with a mirror as my only view of road, I
>> really have no interest in learning how to do that.


Heh heh. I have always used Eagle on Linux, and found no confusion. I
think this is due to the fact that just about every program on Linux is
written with a different GUI toolkit. You never even know when
double-click vs. a single-click will make something happen. So you
learn to be flexible. The result is that something as subtle as Eagle's
inconsistency with standard Windoze apps. grammar easily goes unnoticed.

What's even more fun is when the same app. changes GUI toolkits from one
version to another. That seems to have happened with OpenOffice, now
using the KDE dialog boxes. On my newest Linux machines it seems every
program has a different file dialog compared to my older Linux version.
Completely ridiculous. But, at least it's not Windoze.

--
Good day!

____________________________________
CRC
crobcRE...@BOGUSsbcglobal.net
NOTE, delete texts: "REMOVETHIS" and
"BOGUS" from email address to reply.

Joel Koltner

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Aug 25, 2008, 11:59:50 AM8/25/08
to
"Chris Carlen" <crobcRE...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:esAsk.19328$mh5....@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com...

> I think this is due to the fact that just about every program on Linux is
> written with a different GUI toolkit. You never even know when double-click
> vs. a single-click will make something happen.

Ding ding ding! Yeah, you've sure got that right. An incosistent user
interface is one of the major hurdles to get "mass market" acceptance of Unix.

Things are much better these days than, e.g., 5-10 years ago, though.

Unix has a similar problem with configuration files... everyone and their
brother invented their own format for storing settings (since there's still no
standard central repository for settings as the registry in Windows provides),
and while most are simple enough to figure out via examination of what's
already there, many are somewhat "brittle" as well (the common example being
how easy it is to break X windows by, e.g., leaving out a semi-colon in
Xorg.conf ... sheesh...)

It took years for those in the Unix world to even get together on something as
simple as how new programs should be programmatically added to a "start" menu;
happily the Gnome and KDE guys both seem to play nice on this issue today.


Michael N. Moran

unread,
Aug 25, 2008, 12:37:15 PM8/25/08
to
Joel Koltner wrote:
> Unix has a similar problem with configuration files...
> everyone and their brother invented their own format for
> storing settings (since there's still no standard central
> repository for settings as the registry in Windows
> provides),

Like the registry, which is *so* much better ;)

> and while most are simple enough to figure out via
> examination of what's already there,

[Using a simple text editor]

> many are somewhat "brittle" as well (the common example
> being how easy it is to break X windows by, e.g., leaving
> out a semi-colon in Xorg.conf ... sheesh...)

Fortunately, the Windoze registry is intuitive *and* robust.

> It took years for those in the Unix world to even get
> together on something as simple as how new programs
> should be programmatically added to a "start" menu;
> happily the Gnome and KDE guys both seem to play nice on
> this issue today.

As opposed to the years that it took Mirco$oft to figure out
how to do preemptive multi-tasking?

But I digress :-P

--
Michael N. Moran (h) 770 516 7918
5009 Old Field Ct. (c) 678 521 5460
Kennesaw, GA, USA 30144 http://mnmoran.org

"So often times it happens, that we live our lives in chains
and we never even know we have the key."
"Already Gone" by Jack Tempchin (recorded by The Eagles)

The Beatles were wrong: 1 & 1 & 1 is 1

Joel Koltner

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Aug 25, 2008, 12:49:35 PM8/25/08
to
"Michael N. Moran" <mnm...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:%aBsk.16396$kh2....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...

> Like the registry, which is *so* much better ;)

It's better than the *NIX approach in that there are standard tools and APIs
for creating, editing, and saving individual entries, branchs, etc. Is it
great? No. But I haven't seen any "great" answers to the problem -- storing
configuration settings is such a general problem that there really aren't any
great one-size-fits-all solutions, I expect.

> Fortunately, the Windoze registry is intuitive *and* robust.

Actually, yes -- the arrangement is reasonably intuitive, and it keeps backup
copies of itself around to provide some degree of robustness. (And as with
*NIX text configuration files, you can certainly make as many manual backups
as you feel like.)

> As opposed to the years that it took Mirco$oft to figure out
> how to do preemptive multi-tasking?

No one considered Windows 3.1/95/98 to be in the same class of operating
systems as *NIX, you know. :-) That started with Windows NT, which had plenty
of "real OS" programmers on the team (including David Cutler, who had done
plenty of VMS development... and one might argue he learned from many of his
mistakes there? :-) ).

I wouldn't argue that Microsoft is particularly good at innovation... but they
are good at noticing what's becoming popular in the market and then copying
those features for their own OS.

---Joel


Grant Edwards

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Aug 25, 2008, 2:55:44 PM8/25/08
to
On 2008-08-25, Michael N. Moran <mnm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>> many are somewhat "brittle" as well (the common example
>> being how easy it is to break X windows by, e.g., leaving
>> out a semi-colon in Xorg.conf ... sheesh...)
>
> Fortunately, the Windoze registry is intuitive *and* robust.

Thanks. That made me laugh out loud. :)

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! An INK-LING? Sure --
at TAKE one!! Did you BUY any
visi.com COMMUNIST UNIFORMS??

AZ Nomad

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Aug 25, 2008, 3:04:20 PM8/25/08
to
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 09:49:35 -0700, Joel Koltner <zapwireD...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>"Michael N. Moran" <mnm...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:%aBsk.16396$kh2....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>> Like the registry, which is *so* much better ;)

>It's better than the *NIX approach in that there are standard tools and APIs
>for creating, editing, and saving individual entries, branchs, etc. Is it
>great? No. But I haven't seen any "great" answers to the problem -- storing
>configuration settings is such a general problem that there really aren't any
>great one-size-fits-all solutions, I expect.

>> Fortunately, the Windoze registry is intuitive *and* robust.

>Actually, yes -- the arrangement is reasonably intuitive, and it keeps backup
>copies of itself around to provide some degree of robustness. (And as with
>*NIX text configuration files, you can certainly make as many manual backups
>as you feel like.)

>> As opposed to the years that it took Mirco$oft to figure out
>> how to do preemptive multi-tasking?

>No one considered Windows 3.1/95/98 to be in the same class of operating
>systems as *NIX, you know. :-) That started with Windows NT, which had plenty
>of "real OS" programmers on the team (including David Cutler, who had done
>plenty of VMS development... and one might argue he learned from many of his
>mistakes there? :-) ).

Oh yeah, and if it gets corrupted, you lose your entire system.
Fucking wonderful.

bungalo...@yahoo.com

unread,
Aug 25, 2008, 5:30:16 PM8/25/08
to
On Aug 25, 11:45 am, Chris Carlen <crobcREMOVET...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

> >> Using Eagle is like driving in England on the other side of the rode
> >> while standing on my head with a mirror as my only view of road, I
> >> really have no interest in learning how to do that.
>
> Heh heh.  I have always used Eagle on Linux, and found no confusion.  I
> think this is due to the fact that just about every program on Linux is
> written with a different GUI toolkit.  You never even know when
> double-click vs. a single-click will make something happen.  So you
> learn to be flexible.  The result is that something as subtle as Eagle's
> inconsistency with standard Windoze apps. grammar easily goes unnoticed.
>
> What's even more fun is when the same app. changes GUI toolkits from one
> version to another.  That seems to have happened with OpenOffice, now
> using the KDE dialog boxes.  On my newest Linux machines it seems every
> program has a different file dialog compared to my older Linux version.
>   Completely ridiculous.  But, at least it's not Windoze.
>
> --
> Good day!
>
> ____________________________________
> CRC

> crobcREMOVET...@BOGUSsbcglobal.net


> NOTE, delete texts: "REMOVETHIS" and

> "BOGUS" from email address to reply.- Hide quoted text -


>
> - Show quoted text -

I guess I'll never understand the attraction of linux, guys I know
will spend all afternoon just to get something to start up, usually
some bizarre entry in a config file needs to changed, Windows may be
crappy/buggy/inefficient but at least it works

DJ Delorie

unread,
Aug 25, 2008, 6:45:58 PM8/25/08
to

Not to start another flame war, but...

"bungalo...@yahoo.com" <bungalo...@yahoo.com> writes:
> usually some bizarre entry in a config file needs to changed,

As opposed to Windows, where lots of stuff just can't be changed if it
doesn't do what you want.

> Windows may be crappy/buggy/inefficient

A good reason to run Linux ;-)

> but at least it works

In my personal experience, my Linux machines are more reliable than my
Windows machines. And this includes my wife and kids using a blend of
each on a daily basis.

And my Linux DVD player has a "menu" button that *always* brings you
to the menu, even if the DVD author doesn't want you to skip the
commercials.

Even my furnace runs Linux :-)

Chris Carlen

unread,
Aug 25, 2008, 7:21:26 PM8/25/08
to
bungalo...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I guess I'll never understand the attraction of linux, guys I know
> will spend all afternoon just to get something to start up, usually
> some bizarre entry in a config file needs to changed, Windows may be
> crappy/buggy/inefficient but at least it works


That is an understandable sentiment.

For me, the investment in time to get a Linux system functional to the
degree needed for all aspects of my work and home use is tremendous,
often taking months to fully iron out everything. The effort tapers off
somewhat exponentially from full-time for the first couple days, to
hours a day for the first week or two, to a few hours here and there as
items of lesser importance need to be resolved.

Once I am done I tend not to upgrade until I replace the hardware. I
keep my work and personal (home) PCs on about a 3 year replacement schedule.

So that means about 2.75 years of almost zero maintenance operation.

One benefit for me is that the up front investment is less painful than
the distributed pain of lost work and chronic frustration of dealing
with a marginally stable OS. Plus the initial investment has some
intellectual fulfillment value as I learn new things in the process, and
at least there is usually a solution. Thus, there is a systematic
process of discovery and the attendant pleasure in solving the problem.

With an unstable buggy system, there is no solution. You just have to
live with it. So the time is urinated away gradually, but with each
loss, there is no attendant reward or satisfaction.

The other benefits are that I really like the Linux file system concept,
and the multiple desktops really hooked me a long time ago. I started
using Linux as my primary OS in 1996. This was brought about by a
permanently psychologically damaging experience with Windows, in which a
large amount of work was lost despite making backups, as Windows
annihilated both my main hard drive AND the floppy drive backup. 8 out
of 40 hours lost, the whole thing would have been gone had I not also
been backing up to a 2nd hard drive.

It's been Linux ever since and never again have I had a similar
experience. My workhorse applications like Eagle can run all day
without crashing, for months on end. I have had about 2-3 Eagle crashes
I think, in the past 8 years.

Unfortunately I must use some Windows programs, so I use VMware.
Interestingly, Windows tends to run better in VMware than on native
hardware.


--
Good day!

____________________________________
CRC
crobcRE...@BOGUSsbcglobal.net

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