Caps caps caps...

[Fred Bartoli]

You've guessed, I need a cap... (or maybe several if one is impossible)

No Esr spec (ultra low power)
Low cost, as much as possible (by the 10^6 truck load)
Low voltage Vmax=4V
Cap = 220/330/470uF (may I dream 1000?)
Temp range 0-70蚓

So far, so good.

Now, I want it ultra low leakage, possibly below the 1渙 level over the
temp range...
No wear out mechanism and ultra low FIT: product life = 20 years, 24/24,
no possible service,...

And the customer will want dual source, yeah...

Any thought?

--
Thanks,
Fred.

[Fred Bartoli]

Fred Bartoli a écrit :

> You've guessed, I need a cap... (or maybe several if one is impossible)
>
> No Esr spec (ultra low power)
> Low cost, as much as possible (by the 10^6 truck load)
> Low voltage Vmax=4V
> Cap = 220/330/470uF (may I dream 1000?)

> Temp range 0-70°C
>
> So far, so good.
>
> Now, I want it ultra low leakage, possibly below the 1µA level over the

> temp range...
> No wear out mechanism and ultra low FIT: product life = 20 years, 24/24,
> no possible service,...

Should have said :
No wear out mechanism and _ultra low FIT_ : product life = 20 years,
24/24 operation, expected installed base = 10M, no possible service,...

[Phil Hobbs]

On 12/16/2012 12:21 PM, Fred Bartoli wrote:
> You've guessed, I need a cap... (or maybe several if one is impossible)
>
> No Esr spec (ultra low power)
> Low cost, as much as possible (by the 10^6 truck load)
> Low voltage Vmax=4V
> Cap = 220/330/470uF (may I dream 1000?)

> Temp range 0-70�C
>
> So far, so good.
>
> Now, I want it ultra low leakage, possibly below the 1�A level over the

> temp range...
> No wear out mechanism and ultra low FIT: product life = 20 years, 24/24,
> no possible service,...
>
> And the customer will want dual source, yeah...
>
> Any thought?
>

Polymer aluminums, e.g. http://tinyurl.com/c2ejf5x , would get you some
of that, but not all (at least not guaranteed).

You can get 100 uF MLCCs, e.g. http://tinyurl.com/ctrl7zh .

A couple of those in parallel might get you there.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 USA
+1 845 480 2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 16 Dec 2012 18:21:08 +0100) it happened Fred Bartoli <"
"> wrote in <50ce0304$0$13952$426a...@news.free.fr>:

>You've guessed, I need a cap... (or maybe several if one is impossible)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap

[dagmarg...@yahoo.com]

On Dec 16, 12:26 pm, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
> Fred Bartoli a crit :

>
> > You've guessed, I need a cap... (or maybe several if one is impossible)
>
> > No Esr spec (ultra low power)
> > Low cost, as much as possible (by the 10^6 truck load)
> > Low voltage Vmax=4V
> > Cap = 220/330/470uF (may I dream 1000?)
> > Temp range 0-70 C
>
> > So far, so good.
>

> > Now, I want it ultra low leakage, possibly below the 1 A level over the

> > temp range...
> > No wear out mechanism and ultra low FIT: product life = 20 years, 24/24,
> > no possible service,...
>
> Should have said :
> No wear out mechanism and _ultra low FIT_ : product life = 20 years,
> 24/24 operation, expected installed base = 10M, no possible service,...
>
> > And the customer will want dual source, yeah...
>
> > Any thought?
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Fred.

Sounds like a ceramic cap.

That's a lot of uF for a uW supply though. 100uA = 1V/S from a 100uF
cap., which is only 1mV ripple if you switch at 1kHz.

Frequent, short pulses into a smaller filter cap might be worth
considering.

I've designed discrete microwatt boost converters. That's probably
easier cap-wise, 0.5 x CV**2 and all.

--
Cheers,
James Arthur

[Fred Bartoli]

Jan Panteltje a écrit :

LOL!

That one seems the right model for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Casquette_a_helice.jpg


--
Thanks,
Fred.

[Fred Bartoli]

Phil Hobbs a �crit :

> On 12/16/2012 12:21 PM, Fred Bartoli wrote:
>> You've guessed, I need a cap... (or maybe several if one is impossible)
>>
>> No Esr spec (ultra low power)
>> Low cost, as much as possible (by the 10^6 truck load)
>> Low voltage Vmax=4V
>> Cap = 220/330/470uF (may I dream 1000?)
>> Temp range 0-70�C
>>
>> So far, so good.
>>
>> Now, I want it ultra low leakage, possibly below the 1�A level over the
>> temp range...
>> No wear out mechanism and ultra low FIT: product life = 20 years, 24/24,
>> no possible service,...
>>
>> And the customer will want dual source, yeah...
>>
>> Any thought?
>>
>
> Polymer aluminums, e.g. http://tinyurl.com/c2ejf5x , would get you some
> of that, but not all (at least not guaranteed).
>

At the qty level I guess it's a no-no, but I'll have to check what the
customer say...

> You can get 100 uF MLCCs, e.g. http://tinyurl.com/ctrl7zh .
>
> A couple of those in parallel might get you there.
>

Thanks for the hint. I didn't look because I thought the 100uF were only
of the Y5V-Z5U ilk...

I'll have to check what they're worth though. On a previous design I've
found some 1uF/10V 0402 X7R loose their capacitance with voltage rather
quickly, almost like the Y5V :-(

A bit nervous with chip cracks too... (but the board is smallish)


--
Thanks,
Fred.

[Phil Hobbs]

On 12/16/2012 2:09 PM, Fred Bartoli wrote:
> Phil Hobbs a écrit :

>> On 12/16/2012 12:21 PM, Fred Bartoli wrote:
>>> You've guessed, I need a cap... (or maybe several if one is impossible)
>>>
>>> No Esr spec (ultra low power)
>>> Low cost, as much as possible (by the 10^6 truck load)
>>> Low voltage Vmax=4V
>>> Cap = 220/330/470uF (may I dream 1000?)
>>> Temp range 0-70°C
>>>
>>> So far, so good.
>>>

>>> Now, I want it ultra low leakage, possibly below the 1µA level over the

>>> temp range...
>>> No wear out mechanism and ultra low FIT: product life = 20 years, 24/24,
>>> no possible service,...
>>>
>>> And the customer will want dual source, yeah...
>>>
>>> Any thought?
>>>
>>
>> Polymer aluminums, e.g. http://tinyurl.com/c2ejf5x , would get you
>> some of that, but not all (at least not guaranteed).
>>
>
> At the qty level I guess it's a no-no, but I'll have to check what the
> customer say...
>
>> You can get 100 uF MLCCs, e.g. http://tinyurl.com/ctrl7zh .
>>
>> A couple of those in parallel might get you there.
>>
>
> Thanks for the hint. I didn't look because I thought the 100uF were only
> of the Y5V-Z5U ilk...
>
> I'll have to check what they're worth though. On a previous design I've
> found some 1uF/10V 0402 X7R loose their capacitance with voltage rather
> quickly, almost like the Y5V :-(
>
> A bit nervous with chip cracks too... (but the board is smallish)
>
>

Maybe you can rout out a C-shaped strain relief around it, as with
voltage references.

[Fred Bartoli]

dagmarg...@yahoo.com a écrit :

> On Dec 16, 12:26 pm, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
>> Fred Bartoli a crit :
>>
>>> You've guessed, I need a cap... (or maybe several if one is impossible)
>>> No Esr spec (ultra low power)
>>> Low cost, as much as possible (by the 10^6 truck load)
>>> Low voltage Vmax=4V
>>> Cap = 220/330/470uF (may I dream 1000?)
>>> Temp range 0-70 C
>>> So far, so good.
>>> Now, I want it ultra low leakage, possibly below the 1 A level over the
>>> temp range...
>>> No wear out mechanism and ultra low FIT: product life = 20 years, 24/24,
>>> no possible service,...
>> Should have said :
>> No wear out mechanism and _ultra low FIT_ : product life = 20 years,
>> 24/24 operation, expected installed base = 10M, no possible service,...
>>
>>> And the customer will want dual source, yeah...
>>> Any thought?
>> --
>> Thanks,
>> Fred.
>
> Sounds like a ceramic cap.
>
> That's a lot of uF for a uW supply though. 100uA = 1V/S from a 100uF
> cap., which is only 1mV ripple if you switch at 1kHz.
>

Oh, I'm way higher in power, at the mW level :-)
Switching at 100kHz, but it's not a bypass cap, rather a reservoir cap
here. Sorry can't say too much...

> Frequent, short pulses into a smaller filter cap might be worth
> considering.
>
> I've designed discrete microwatt boost converters. That's probably
> easier cap-wise, 0.5 x CV**2 and all.
>

Indeed, but I'm bucking it down later and efficiency is a real big
concern...

--
Thanks,
Fred.

[Fred Bartoli]

Excellent idea! Thanks.

--
Thanks,
Fred.

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 16 Dec 2012 19:53:37 +0100) it happened Fred Bartoli <"
"> wrote in <50ce18b1$0$2051$426a...@news.free.fr>:

>Jan Panteltje a �crit :

Yes, I have considred ordering one of those,
but I need a very powerful motor for liftoff...

[dagmarg...@yahoo.com]

On Dec 16, 2:21 pm, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
> dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com a crit :

mW? Monster!

> Switching at 100kHz, but it's not a bypass cap, rather a reservoir cap
> here.

Naturally. Who uses 330uF bypass caps?

> Sorry can't say too much...

Oh yeah, 'twas a current source, right? So that's current ripple.

> > Frequent, short pulses into a smaller filter cap might be worth
> > considering.
>
> > I've designed discrete microwatt boost converters.  That's probably
> > easier cap-wise, 0.5 x CV**2 and all.
>
> Indeed, but I'm bucking it down later and efficiency is a real big
> concern...

I used discrete components expressly for high efficiency. (All the
commercial controller chips would've drawn several times the intended
load power--no one made efficient controllers for a 20uW supply.)

I'd think a good CMOS totempole would be an awfully good head-start on
a synchronous mW buck, but I haven't actually tried.

--
Cheers,
James Arthur

[dagmarg...@yahoo.com]

On Dec 16, 2:11 pm, Phil Hobbs

<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> On 12/16/2012 2:09 PM, Fred Bartoli wrote:

> > Phil Hobbs a crit :

> >> On 12/16/2012 12:21 PM, Fred Bartoli wrote:
> >>> You've guessed, I need a cap... (or maybe several if one is impossible)
>
> >>> No Esr spec (ultra low power)
> >>> Low cost, as much as possible (by the 10^6 truck load)
> >>> Low voltage Vmax=4V
> >>> Cap = 220/330/470uF (may I dream 1000?)
> >>> Temp range 0-70 C
>
> >>> So far, so good.
>

> >>> Now, I want it ultra low leakage, possibly below the 1 A level over the

> >>> temp range...
> >>> No wear out mechanism and ultra low FIT: product life = 20 years, 24/24,
> >>> no possible service,...
>
> >>> And the customer will want dual source, yeah...
>
> >>> Any thought?
>

> >> Polymer aluminums, e.g.http://tinyurl.com/c2ejf5x, would get you

> >> some of that, but not all (at least not guaranteed).
>
> > At the qty level I guess it's a no-no, but I'll have to check what the
> > customer say...
>
> >> You can get 100 uF MLCCs, e.g.http://tinyurl.com/ctrl7zh.
>
> >> A couple of those in parallel might get you there.
>
> > Thanks for the hint. I didn't look because I thought the 100uF were only
> > of the Y5V-Z5U ilk...
>
> > I'll have to check what they're worth though. On a previous design I've
> > found some  1uF/10V 0402 X7R loose their capacitance with voltage rather
> > quickly, almost like the Y5V :-(

The loss of C with V goes with volume--bigger caps used at a fraction
of rated voltage are far less affected. Still, I'm surprised to hear
that of X7R--I've not seen that. But then I've not personally seen a
1uF/10V 0402 either.

> > A bit nervous with chip cracks too... (but the board is smallish)
>
> Maybe you can rout out a C-shaped strain relief around it, as with
> voltage references.

Sweet.

--
Cheers,
James Arthur

[Joerg]

Oh no, this is an application where there are electrons and those can go
berserk. So you need one of these:

http://berkeley.intel-research.net/arahimi/helmet/

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Joerg]

But be careful. This can also cause a cantilever vibration at the end of
a fall, and hair-crack the ceramic.

[John Larkin]

If you need a lot of reservoir cap, and you need to step down, maybe you could
consider an all-capacitor charge-pump type converter, with some CMOS analog
switches and a bunch of ceramic caps. They can be very efficient at low power
levels. It would be interesting to design one that put all the caps in parallel
after they were pumped up, or rather pumped down.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

[dagmarg...@yahoo.com]

On Dec 16, 5:04 pm, John Larkin

<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 20:21:25 +0100, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> >dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com a crit :

Lots of switches, lots of switches to drive. But that might work,
since he's really making a current source.

As an alternate, he might be able to dispense current 'packets' via a
cap[*], and smooth the doses with an inductor. That would be very
efficient.

[*] like V-to-F's and A/D's.

--
Cheers,
James Arthur

[legg]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 20:21:25 +0100, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:

>dagmarg...@yahoo.com a écrit :
>> On Dec 16, 12:26 pm, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
>>> Fred Bartoli a crit :

<snip>

>> Sounds like a ceramic cap.
>>
>> That's a lot of uF for a uW supply though. 100uA = 1V/S from a 100uF
>> cap., which is only 1mV ripple if you switch at 1kHz.
>>
>
>Oh, I'm way higher in power, at the mW level :-)
>Switching at 100kHz, but it's not a bypass cap, rather a reservoir cap
>here. Sorry can't say too much...

If it's a reservoir you're looking for, you might try storing at a
higher voltage, and only use the part and energy stored, when needed.
The storage could be performed over the long term, not drawing
significantly on power consumption, and not effecting efficiency, once
charged.

Switch into buck reg when needed.....

RL

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 16 Dec 2012 13:36:07 -0800) it happened Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aj6t6h...@mid.individual.net>:

>Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Sun, 16 Dec 2012 19:53:37 +0100) it happened Fred Bartoli <"
>> "> wrote in <50ce18b1$0$2051$426a...@news.free.fr>:
>>

>>> Jan Panteltje a écrit :

>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 16 Dec 2012 18:21:08 +0100) it happened Fred Bartoli <"
>>>> "> wrote in <50ce0304$0$13952$426a...@news.free.fr>:
>>>>
>>>>> You've guessed, I need a cap... (or maybe several if one is impossible)
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap
>>>>
>>> LOL!
>>>
>>> That one seems the right model for you:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Casquette_a_helice.jpg
>>
>>
>> Yes, I have considred ordering one of those,
>> but I need a very powerful motor for liftoff...
>
>
>Oh no, this is an application where there are electrons and those can go
>berserk. So you need one of these:
>
>http://berkeley.intel-research.net/arahimi/helmet/

Yes I did read that one,
the modern NSA brain control transmitters are in underground spaces,
those beam upward, and then the tinfoil cap focusses the beam IN the brain.
Have you felt pro US govermnment lately?
Make sure there is no tin foil in your cap!
Some Shampoos also reflect..

[Jerry...@mount.carmel.home.com]

Not to answer your question, but I do have some thoughts.......
(at least on the days when I'm not in senile mode).

My thought today is to change all circuit boards. In the old days,
tubes had sockets because they failed often. These says the caps are so
lousy, that they need to be replaced often. Therefore, all caps should
have sockets, rather than being soldered in. Then the corner drug store
should have a cap tester where you take your caps to be tested, and buy
new replacements for those that check out bad.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jerry...@Mount.Carmel.home.com wrote:
>
> Not to answer your question, but I do have some thoughts.......
> (at least on the days when I'm not in senile mode).
>
> My thought today is to change all circuit boards. In the old days,
> tubes had sockets because they failed often. These says the caps are so
> lousy, that they need to be replaced often. Therefore, all caps should
> have sockets, rather than being soldered in. Then the corner drug store
> should have a cap tester where you take your caps to be tested, and buy
> new replacements for those that check out bad.

Yawn. What a lame troll.

[VioletaPachydermata]

Sounds to me like Cap' Atrick needs a tester ran on him.

[John Larkin]

I recall octal-based, plugin electrolytic caps.

[Fred Bartoli]

Bollocks...

(roasted bollocks, of course)



--
Thanks,
Fred.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2012 13:36:07 -0800, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>Oh no, this is an application where there are electrons and those can go
>berserk. So you need one of these:
>http://berkeley.intel-research.net/arahimi/helmet/

Nope. The problem is that the authors of the various tin foil hat
articles fail to recognize the difference between an RF reflector and
an RF absorber. A tin foil hat will only reflect RF. With tin foil,
the RF is not destroyed and can do damage elsewhere, which the above
URL demonstrates. (Presumably rampaging electrons emit RF). What is
required is an RF absorbant hat, made from any material that will
absorb RF such as a carbon doped foam hat, water bottle, or even a wet
towel.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Spehro Pefhany]

Don't remember those. I do remember octal-base mercury relays that
looked like tubes.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

>
> John Larkin wrote:
> >
> >I recall octal-based, plugin electrolytic caps.
>
> Don't remember those.

They were used in some W.W II military radios.

[Jon Elson]

No, I thought it was actually quite funny! Ohhh, a return to the vacuum
tube days, wouldn't that be WONDERFUL!!!

Jon

[Fred Bartoli]

dagmarg...@yahoo.com a écrit :

Just did the measurement again as I couldn't find it back...

That one:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/C1005X5R1C105M/445-4979-1-ND/2093593

I misremembered and it was rather one 1uF/16V-X5R-0402 that I measured

Measurements done @10kHz
DC bias Value
0V 808nF
2V 705nF
4V 475nF
6V 320nF
8V 230nF
10V 180nF
15V 110nF
20V 80nF

It also show a pretty high dependency on frequency:

Freq @0V DC bias @6V DC bias
10K 803n 310n
20K 765n 295n
40K 735n 284n
100K 700n 275n
200K 680n 270n
400K 670n 268n

I can't measure at the 1kHz specified frequency right now, but IIRC the
value was spot on at that frequency...

Also, at 3 to 7ohm depending on conditions, ESR surely is not something
to brag about.

I finally resorted to use 470nF caps which behaved better at the wanted
working voltage...


Time to order some and see how the 100uF ones behave...
Maybe not so bright a solution as it first seemed :-(


--
Thanks,
Fred.

[Jerry...@mount.carmel.home.com]

On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 07:08:44 -0800, John Larkin
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

I have some very old tube power amplifiers that have them. Back in the
70's I needed replacements and found an old electronics store that still
had some on the shelf. I bought all of them he had. I have not fired
up those amps in years, but still got them.

[Jerry...@mount.carmel.home.com]

I have fond memories of going to the corner drug store with my dad and
testing tubes. I was very young, and dad would ahve them all in a bag,
and it was my job to read the numbers to him so he could look them up on
the chart. (usually a wheel turned to expose the rolled up list).

That's sort of what got me started in electronics as a hobby and an old
tube tester was one of the first instruments I bought. I still have
thatr old tester too.

These days that closeness of family doing things together is lost.
Everything involves calling in some specialist or dropping the tv off as
some place where you never see the repair guy, just a salesman with a
repair book and later a bill.

[dagmarg...@yahoo.com]

On Dec 17, 4:20 pm, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:
> dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com a écrit :

> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/C1005X5R1C105M/445-4979-1-ND...

>
> I misremembered and it was rather one 1uF/16V-X5R-0402 that I measured
>
> Measurements done @10kHz
> DC bias         Value
> 0V              808nF
> 2V              705nF
> 4V              475nF
> 6V              320nF
> 8V              230nF
> 10V             180nF
> 15V             110nF
> 20V             80nF
>
> It also show a pretty high dependency on frequency:
>
> Freq    @0V DC bias     @6V DC bias
> 10K     803n            310n
> 20K     765n            295n
> 40K     735n            284n
> 100K    700n            275n
> 200K    680n            270n
> 400K    670n            268n
>
> I can't measure at the 1kHz specified frequency right now, but IIRC the
> value was spot on at that frequency...

Those are pretty ugly--looks almost like Z5U.

> Also, at 3 to 7ohm depending on conditions, ESR surely is not something
> to brag about.

*That* sounds impossible--ESR should be milliohms. I couldn't find a
spec, but the datasheet boasts:

"Owing to their low ESR and excellent frequency
characteristics, these products are optimally suited for
high frequency and high-density type power supplies."

> I finally resorted to use 470nF caps which behaved better at the wanted
> working voltage...
>
> Time to order some and see how the 100uF ones behave...
> Maybe not so bright a solution as it first seemed :-(

I measured a range of caps, up to about 10uF. I think the smallest
was 0603, best (and biggest) was 0805.

I'm afraid my notes are buried, but the upshot (and mfr's application
data) was that high C/volume implies ultra hi-k materials, which are
responsible for the high dC/dV coefficient.

--
Cheers,
James Arthur

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 16:40:57 -0600, Jerry...@Mount.Carmel.home.com
wrote:

>On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 15:29:25 -0600, Jon Elson <jme...@wustl.edu> wrote:
>
>>Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Jerry...@Mount.Carmel.home.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Not to answer your question, but I do have some thoughts.......
>>>> (at least on the days when I'm not in senile mode).
>>>>
>>>> My thought today is to change all circuit boards. In the old days,
>>>> tubes had sockets because they failed often. These says the caps are so
>>>> lousy, that they need to be replaced often. Therefore, all caps should
>>>> have sockets, rather than being soldered in. Then the corner drug store
>>>> should have a cap tester where you take your caps to be tested, and buy
>>>> new replacements for those that check out bad.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yawn. What a lame troll.
>>No, I thought it was actually quite funny! Ohhh, a return to the vacuum
>>tube days, wouldn't that be WONDERFUL!!!
>>
>>Jon
>
>I have fond memories of going to the corner drug store with my dad and
>testing tubes. I was very young, and dad would ahve them all in a bag,
>and it was my job to read the numbers to him so he could look them up on
>the chart. (usually a wheel turned to expose the rolled up list).
>
>That's sort of what got me started in electronics as a hobby and an old
>tube tester was one of the first instruments I bought. I still have
>thatr old tester too.
>
>These days that closeness of family doing things together is lost.

There's always sports.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators

Custom laser drivers and controllers

Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links

VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 15:57:23 -0800 (PST), dagmarg...@yahoo.com
wrote:

I wonder if you could make an oscillator using the cap as a sort of
negative resistor.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 22:20:58 +0100, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:

>Also, at 3 to 7ohm depending on conditions, ESR surely is not something
>to brag about.

ESR is normally specified at 100KHz, which might explain the higher
ESR at lower frequencies.
<http://www.low-esr.com/smte-caps.asp>
Note the frequencies.

This is for a similar (but not identical) TDK X7R ceramic 1uf 16v cap:
<http://www.tdk.de/templ/campaign30/DATA/C3225X7R2A105K%20data.PDF>
Looks like 1.5 ohms at 100KHz.

[Michael A. Terrell]

You want tubes? See a shrink.

[VioletaPachydermata]

Him? He can go buy an enema bag if he "wants tubes".

You? You could sit on a 180 kV X-Ray tube, and the 9 inch by 4 inch
diameter tube would disappear up your fat, sloppy ass instantly.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jerry...@Mount.Carmel.home.com wrote:

>
> I have fond memories of going to the corner drug store with my dad and

> testing tubes. I was very young, and dad would have them all in a bag,

> and it was my job to read the numbers to him so he could look them up on
> the chart. (usually a wheel turned to expose the rolled up list).
>
> That's sort of what got me started in electronics as a hobby and an old
> tube tester was one of the first instruments I bought. I still have

> that old tester too.

>
> These days that closeness of family doing things together is lost.
> Everything involves calling in some specialist or dropping the tv off as
> some place where you never see the repair guy, just a salesman with a
> repair book and later a bill.

then learn electronics, buy all the test equipment & manuals. Then
spend $50,000 to stock some parts to fix a $200 TV without waiting weeks
for a mail order parts house to ship you the wrong parts. I, like a few
others here did my time in a TV shop in the vacuum tube days. Bad tube
sockets & other connectors were the bane of every tech. Equipment
trashed by 'clever' DIY types were the worst, because they knew
everything and screwed up everything they touched. I saw lots of radios
& TVs where 'Mr. Fixed it' had put the tubes in the wrong sockets, and
one fool who ripped an electrolytic can capacitor out of a solid state
car radio, along with part of the circuit board and insisted it was a
vibrator.

If you want family activities play games, do woodworking, or remodel
the house by yourselves.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jerry...@Mount.Carmel.home.com wrote:
>
> I have some very old tube power amplifiers that have them. Back in the
> 70's I needed replacements and found an old electronics store that still
> had some on the shelf. I bought all of them he had. I have not fired
> up those amps in years, but still got them.

Then you better reform them before you fire up the amps.

[legg]

On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 04:18:56 -0600, Jerry...@Mount.Carmel.home.com
wrote:

<snip>

>My thought today is to change all circuit boards. In the old days,
>tubes had sockets because they failed often. These says the caps are so
>lousy, that they need to be replaced often. Therefore, all caps should
>have sockets, rather than being soldered in. Then the corner drug store
>should have a cap tester where you take your caps to be tested, and buy
>new replacements for those that check out bad.
>

Sockets are just another component that can fail, and typically cost
more than the components they secure.

RL

[Jerry...@mount.carmel.home.com]

On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:07:45 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>

> You want tubes? See a shrink.

The best audio amps still use tubes. You cant reproduce their sound
quality with any solid state stuff. I mightr be old, but my hearing
still works.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jerry...@Mount.Carmel.home.com wrote:
>
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:07:45 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > You want tubes? See a shrink.
>
> The best audio amps still use tubes.

Keep telling yourself that lie. Tube amps distort.

[k...@att.bizzz]

On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 12:15:40 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>Jerry...@Mount.Carmel.home.com wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:07:45 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
>> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > You want tubes? See a shrink.
>>
>> The best audio amps still use tubes.
>
>
> Keep telling yourself that lie. Tube amps distort.

Audiophools are a dime a dozen for two-cent IQ.

[dagmarg...@yahoo.com]

On Dec 17, 7:41 pm, John Larkin <jlar...@highlandtechnology.com>
wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 15:57:23 -0800 (PST), dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com

> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Dec 17, 4:20 pm, Fred Bartoli <" "> wrote:

> >> dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com a crit :

Must be possible, some sort of parametric oscillator...

For sure it's a monster varactor, we've yakked about that here before.

James

[hifi-tek]

<Jerry...@Mount.Carmel.home.com> wrote in message
news:uir0d8hr05kllfcn8...@4ax.com...

Being old is working for you. Your inability to hear high frequencies will
fit perfectly with a tube amplifier's lack of clean high frequency output.
Tubes are known for their "euphonic" (read = "warm, inaccurate", sound.)
Now on the other hand, if you want gut thumping bass, you just cannot beat a
quality solid state amplifier. Tubed amps are also quite anemic in that
department too.
Tom