[OT] CEng - worth it or not?
Gareth
be much more difficult after the end of this year, so I should apply
now, but I can't see the point.
What are peoples opinions on the merits of becoming a chartered engineer
and how is it likely to benefit an electronic engineer working in the UK?
Thanks,
Gareth.
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To reply to me directly:
Replace privacy.net with: totalise DOT co DOT uk and replace me with
gareth.harris
John Woodgate
<c5jueu$2jqe2$1...@ID-211380.news.uni-berlin.de>) about '[OT] CEng - worth
it or not?', on Wed, 14 Apr 2004:
>I have been told that the process for becoming a chartered engineer will be much
>more difficult after the end of this year, so I should apply now, but I can't
>see the point.
>
>What are peoples opinions on the merits of becoming a chartered engineer and how
>is it likely to benefit an electronic engineer working in the UK?
It depends very much on what you are doing now and your career plans.
You need a careers adviser, because you won't want to put all the
necessary personal details on the newsgroup.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
Kevin Aylward
> I have been told that the process for becoming a chartered engineer
> will be much more difficult after the end of this year, so I should
> apply now, but I can't see the point.
>
> What are peoples opinions on the merits of becoming a chartered
> engineer and how is it likely to benefit an electronic engineer
> working in the UK?
Essentially, nil.
Kevin Aylward
salesE...@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
Mike Page
> I have been told that the process for becoming a chartered engineer will
> be much more difficult after the end of this year, so I should apply
> now, but I can't see the point.
>
> What are peoples opinions on the merits of becoming a chartered engineer
> and how is it likely to benefit an electronic engineer working in the UK?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gareth.
The IEE run occasional evening meetings addressing exactly these
questions. I went to one, and can thoroughly recommend it to you.
As for the merits - in my own case it will cost me nothing (except the
boredom involved in form filling), and will benefit me little in the
immediate future. But I think I would regret not doing it.
Regards,
Mike.
--
Mike Page BEng(Hons) MIEE www.eclectic-web.co.uk
John Woodgate
A...@anasoft.co.uk> wrote (in <Gwffc.13$74.4@newsfe1-win>) about '[OT]
CEng - worth it or not?', on Wed, 14 Apr 2004:
>> I have been told that the process for becoming a chartered engineer
>> will be much more difficult after the end of this year, so I should
>> apply now, but I can't see the point.
>>
>> What are peoples opinions on the merits of becoming a chartered
>> engineer and how is it likely to benefit an electronic engineer
>> working in the UK?
>
>Essentially, nil.
That's as things are now; they may not stay that way. It's a toss-up
whether governments will impose qualification requirements for certain
jobs or not. Already, we are faced with the fact that a Chartered
Electrical Engineer soon won't be allowed to run a new ring circuit in
his own home, unless he also has a low-level technician's qualification.
Utter madness!
Jim Thompson
<j...@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:
>I read in sci.electronics.design that Kevin Aylward <kevindotaylwardEXTR
>A...@anasoft.co.uk> wrote (in <Gwffc.13$74.4@newsfe1-win>) about '[OT]
>CEng - worth it or not?', on Wed, 14 Apr 2004:
>>Gareth wrote:
>>> I have been told that the process for becoming a chartered engineer
>>> will be much more difficult after the end of this year, so I should
>>> apply now, but I can't see the point.
>>>
>>> What are peoples opinions on the merits of becoming a chartered
>>> engineer and how is it likely to benefit an electronic engineer
>>> working in the UK?
>>
>>Essentially, nil.
>
>That's as things are now; they may not stay that way. It's a toss-up
>whether governments will impose qualification requirements for certain
>jobs or not. Already, we are faced with the fact that a Chartered
>Electrical Engineer soon won't be allowed to run a new ring circuit in
>his own home, unless he also has a low-level technician's qualification.
>Utter madness!
Here in the colonies a homeowner can wire *his own* house, without any
license requirement whatsoever.
Disclaimer: This probably isn't true in the People's Commonwealth of
Massa-two-shits... the closest thing we have to a church-police state
this side of the pond. Their Senior Senator was expelled from
Haaahvaaahrd for cheating, and they once re-elected the Mayor of
Boston while he was cooling his heels in the slammer ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Tim Wescott
On this side of the pond it depends on what you're going to do. If you
want to work with itty bitty clean things like circuits that go inside
of nice little boxes to be sold in great quantities to the Great
Unwashed then a Professional Engineers certificate means nothing.
On the other hand if you're going to work with Great Big Dirty Things
like one-off 500 horsepower motor installations for the local paper mill
that could cost 25 lives and a few million dollars if it burst into
flame one day then yes, a PE is a good thing to have.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Ian Bell
Intriguing - please expand.
Ian
Ian Bell
Pretty much the same this side of the pond too.
Ian
Ian Bell
> I have been told that the process for becoming a chartered engineer will
> be much more difficult after the end of this year, so I should apply
> now, but I can't see the point.
>
> What are peoples opinions on the merits of becoming a chartered engineer
> and how is it likely to benefit an electronic engineer working in the UK?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gareth.
In 20 years of recruiting electronic engineers I never found any correlation
between ability and the possession of a C.Eng (except an occasional
negative one) and certainly no connection between a C.Eng and career
progression.
Ian
krw
thegr...@example.com says...
...and their Junior Senator is even loonier.
> and they once re-elected the Mayor of
> Boston while he was cooling his heels in the slammer ;-)
Boston isn't unique. The whole right coast is full of such examples.
RI and DC come to mind too. Though I gotta admit, Taxyourtwoshits pegs
the loon-meter.
--
Keith
N. Thornton
> Gareth wrote:
> > What are peoples opinions on the merits of becoming a chartered engineer
> > and how is it likely to benefit an electronic engineer working in the UK?
> In 20 years of recruiting electronic engineers I never found any correlation
> between ability and the possession of a C.Eng (except an occasional
> negative one) and certainly no connection between a C.Eng and career
> progression.
Though that doesnt imply that employers will know that.
Regards, NT
JeffM
>
>OTOH...Great Big Dirty Things...good thing to have.
> Tim Wescott
It does look kinda cool the way Jim Thompson & Paul Hovnanian
get to put P.E. behind their names. 8-)
Jim Thompson
Doesn't mean diddly. Competency isn't certifiable ;-)
Mike Page
> Mike Page wrote:
>>As for the merits - in my own case it will cost me nothing (except the
>>boredom involved in form filling), and will benefit me little in the
>>immediate future. But I think I would regret not doing it.
>
> Intriguing - please expand.
>
> Ian
If something is in reach and you don't grab hold of it, when it's gone
you'll wonder "what if", and never have the answer. I don't have a
crystal ball.
Ian Buckner
"Jim Thompson" <thegr...@example.com> wrote in message
news:gsju705d2i6qqjup4...@4ax.com...
> On 15 Apr 2004 20:11:25 -0700, jef...@email.com (JeffM) wrote:
>
> >>work with itty bitty clean things [nix]
> >>
> >>OTOH...Great Big Dirty Things...good thing to have.
> >> Tim Wescott
> >
> >It does look kinda cool the way Jim Thompson & Paul Hovnanian
> >get to put P.E. behind their names. 8-)
>
> Doesn't mean diddly. Competency isn't certifiable ;-)
>
> ...Jim Thompson
Are you claiming to be certifiable, Jim?
Regards
Ian
;-)
Bill Sloman
And do remember that there are two levels of filtering in most hiring
processes - your letter or e-mail applying for the job usually gets
filtered by somebody in the personnel department who knows nothing
about engineering and can see C.Eng as a job qualification and its
absence as a disqualification. Only after they've had a chance to
exercise their irrational prejudices do the engineers get to see your
CV, and exercise their own set of largely irrational prejudices.
I've got a long list of stories about the idiocies perpetrated by
personnel departments, acquired from both sides of the fence.
My favorite involves an utterly brilliant Chinese mechanical engineer
who had acquired a Ph.D. in physics working on electron microscopes,
who made three applications to the Cambridge Instruments (now Leica
Cambridge) personnel department and was rejected without interview on
all three occasions.
If hs wife hadn't played badminton with the wife of one of our
engineers, his CV would never have gotten into the hands of the senior
engineer (which wasn't me) who got him hired in jig time.
------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Charles Edmondson
Oh, no need for him to CLAIM anything! 8-)
--
Charlie
--
Edmondson Engineering
Unique Solutions to Unusual Problems
Tim Mitchell
<m...@privacy.net> writes
>I have been told that the process for becoming a chartered engineer
>will be much more difficult after the end of this year, so I should
>apply now, but I can't see the point.
>
>What are peoples opinions on the merits of becoming a chartered
>engineer and how is it likely to benefit an electronic engineer working
>in the UK?
>
engineering manager in a large organisation, many will not consider you
if you do not have C.Eng. I used to work for part of the great British
Rail and that was certainly the case there, and I would expect still is
for the higher up engineering jobs. They would not take you on as a
management trainee unless you were working for chartered status and had
the necessary accredited academic qualifications to get there.
If on the other hand you actually want a job where you do stuff with
electronics, I am not sure it will be of any benefit.
--
Tim Mitchell (MIEE but not C.Eng)
Jim Thompson
<edmo...@ieee.org> wrote:
>Ian Buckner wrote:
>
[snip]
>> Are you claiming to be certifiable, Jim?
>>
>> Regards
>> Ian
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>Oh, no need for him to CLAIM anything! 8-)
>
>--
>Charlie
ROTFLMAO!
40-some years ago when I was a student in Cambridge there was a fellow
running for the Massa-two-shits legislature claiming he was the only
sane candidate... citing the "sanity" certificate he had been issued
upon his release from the state nut house ;-)
Ian Bell
No, but *good* ones will.
Ian
Ian Bell
> big...@meeow.co.uk (N. Thornton) wrote in message
> news:<a7076635.04041...@posting.google.com>...
>> Ian Bell <i...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:<c5k5qa$2j16n$5...@ID-225948.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>> > Gareth wrote:
>>
>> > > What are peoples opinions on the merits of becoming a chartered
>> > > engineer and how is it likely to benefit an electronic engineer
>> > > working in the UK?
>>
>> > In 20 years of recruiting electronic engineers I never found any
>> > correlation between ability and the possession of a C.Eng (except an
>> > occasional negative one) and certainly no connection between a C.Eng
>> > and career progression.
>>
>>
>> Though that doesnt imply that employers will know that.
>
> And do remember that there are two levels of filtering in most hiring
> processes - your letter or e-mail applying for the job usually gets
> filtered by somebody in the personnel department who knows nothing
> about engineering and can see C.Eng as a job qualification and its
> absence as a disqualification.
If they do then it is either because they have been poorly briefed by the
recruiter or they are not doing their job properly.
> Only after they've had a chance to
> exercise their irrational prejudices do the engineers get to see your
> CV, and exercise their own set of largely irrational prejudices.
Then neither should be involved in recruitment. If they cannot put aside
their prejudices then they are not fit to be recruiting.
>
> I've got a long list of stories about the idiocies perpetrated by
> personnel departments, acquired from both sides of the fence.
No doubt. There is no shortage of idiots.
Ian
Ian Bell
Perhaps a tad cynical but nonetheless accurate.
Ian
Rob
>
> That's as things are now; they may not stay that way. It's a toss-up
> whether governments will impose qualification requirements for certain
> jobs or not. Already, we are faced with the fact that a Chartered
> Electrical Engineer soon won't be allowed to run a new ring circuit in
> his own home, unless he also has a low-level technician's qualification.
> Utter madness!
> --
> Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
> The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
> The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
> http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
Perhaps this is madness in the majority of cases, but I've worked with some
engineers who were excellent on theory but couldn't drive a screwdriver or
run a cable to save thier lives. Theory and practicality are miles apart for
some eng's - others are great allrounders.
Gareth
It seems that most of you think a CEng isn't particularly helpful,
except possibly in getting an application past an ill informed personnel
department. The only significant risk of not having a CEng seems to be
that legislation may be introduced which makes it a legal requirement to
work in electronic engineering. I do not currently see myself wanting
to become an engineering manager in a large organisation, though I
suppose that could change in the next 10 or so years.
My opinion is much the same as it was when I posted the question - I
can't see the point of a CEng at the moment, but I may regret not having
one some time in the future.
Thanks for all the comments,
Ian Bell
> Thanks for all the replies.
>
> It seems that most of you think a CEng isn't particularly helpful,
> except possibly in getting an application past an ill informed personnel
> department. The only significant risk of not having a CEng seems to be
> that legislation may be introduced which makes it a legal requirement to
> work in electronic engineering.
I think there is zero risk of this happening.
> I do not currently see myself wanting
> to become an engineering manager in a large organisation, though I
> suppose that could change in the next 10 or so years.
If you are good enough, not having a C.Eng will make no difference.
>
> My opinion is much the same as it was when I posted the question - I
> can't see the point of a CEng at the moment, but I may regret not having
> one some time in the future.
If you can get it for little effort then you might as well.
Ian
maxfoo
>Boston isn't unique. The whole right coast is full of such examples.
>RI and DC come to mind too. Though I gotta admit, Taxyourtwoshits pegs
>the loon-meter.
>
>--
> Keith
yep, that's how the mafia controlled unions want it...
Remove "HeadFromButt", before replying by email.
Bill Sloman
> Bill Sloman wrote:
>
> > big...@meeow.co.uk (N. Thornton) wrote in message
> > news:<a7076635.04041...@posting.google.com>...
> >> Ian Bell <i...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:<c5k5qa$2j16n$5...@ID-225948.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> >> > Gareth wrote:
>
> >> > > What are peoples opinions on the merits of becoming a chartered
> >> > > engineer and how is it likely to benefit an electronic engineer
> >> > > working in the UK?
>
> >> > In 20 years of recruiting electronic engineers I never found any
> >> > correlation between ability and the possession of a C.Eng (except an
> >> > occasional negative one) and certainly no connection between a C.Eng
> >> > and career progression.
> >>
> >>
> >> Though that doesnt imply that employers will know that.
> >
> > And do remember that there are two levels of filtering in most hiring
> > processes - your letter or e-mail applying for the job usually gets
> > filtered by somebody in the personnel department who knows nothing
> > about engineering and can see C.Eng as a job qualification and its
> > absence as a disqualification.
>
> If they do then it is either because they have been poorly briefed by the
> recruiter or they are not doing their job properly.
When it comes to recruiting engineers, and I suspect this will be true
for most jobs involving specialised expertise, personnel departments
hardly ever do their job properly. I've worked for a couple of
organisations which kept the individual units small enough - around
200 people - that hiring and firing could be handled by the managers
and their secretaries, and they seemed to do a lot better in this
area.
> > Only after they've had a chance to
> > exercise their irrational prejudices do the engineers get to see your
> > CV, and exercise their own set of largely irrational prejudices.
>
> Then neither should be involved in recruitment. If they cannot put aside
> their prejudices then they are not fit to be recruiting.
True, but that isn't the way it works. I just got rejected - without
interview - for a job with the Dutch organisation for space research
because the guy who made the decision believed - or so he told me -
that someone with a Ph.D. who had published a couple of papers in
refereed journals couldn't possibly do detailed circuit design. Pity
he hadn't bothered to look at any of those papers.
> > I've got a long list of stories about the idiocies perpetrated by
> > personnel departments, acquired from both sides of the fence.
>
> No doubt. There is no shortage of idiots.
Particularly in personnel departments. I've known a couple of
non-idiot people active in personnel, but they are exceedingly rare.
------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
John Woodgate
wrote (in <7c584d27.04041...@posting.google.com>) about '[OT]
CEng - worth it or not?', on Sat, 17 Apr 2004:
>someone with a Ph.D. who had published a couple of papers in
>refereed journals couldn't possibly do detailed circuit design. Pity
>he hadn't bothered to look at any of those papers.
He wouldn't have understood them, making him inferior to you. Naturally,
he couldn't permit that!
maxfoo
>> Then neither should be involved in recruitment. If they cannot put aside
>> their prejudices then they are not fit to be recruiting.
>
>True, but that isn't the way it works. I just got rejected - without
>interview - for a job with the Dutch organisation for space research
>because the guy who made the decision believed - or so he told me -
>that someone with a Ph.D. who had published a couple of papers in
>refereed journals couldn't possibly do detailed circuit design. Pity
>he hadn't bothered to look at any of those papers.
>
Or the guy figured you would be quickly bored and leave within the year.
"overqualified", I think is the term.
Educated or skilled beyond what is necessary or desired for a particular job.
Bill Sloman
"Overqualified" was exactly the term used. He would have only had to
read my CV to know that I don't get bored wth nit-picking circuit
design - and in fact the job involved some quite fascinating
difficulties.
In fact John Woodgate's suggestion is more likely to be correct, and
my wife is of the same opinion. It was noticeable that the guy I
talked to had only one visible publication on the SRON web-site, while
the other name in the ad (whom I had tried to contact by e-mail
earlier in the process) had quite a few.
------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Ian Buckner
"Gareth" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:c5r275$4jd3g$1...@ID-211380.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Thanks for all the replies.
>
> It seems that most of you think a CEng isn't particularly helpful,
> except possibly in getting an application past an ill informed
personnel
> department. The only significant risk of not having a CEng seems to
be
> that legislation may be introduced which makes it a legal
requirement to
> work in electronic engineering. I do not currently see myself
wanting
> to become an engineering manager in a large organisation, though I
> suppose that could change in the next 10 or so years.
>
> My opinion is much the same as it was when I posted the question - I
> can't see the point of a CEng at the moment, but I may regret not
having
> one some time in the future.
>
> Thanks for all the comments,
>
> Gareth.
>
status was useful for access to their library, if you did not have a
decent one available. As others have said, it can also be useful in
guvmint type jobs.
In other parts of Europe the Eur Ing can be important, and that also
carries CEng status in the UK I believe. I'm not sure the reverse is
true.
Regards
Ian
Steve Roberts
students and four PHDs at a university and maintain some quite
complicated gear, most of what I build are one offs, and involve terms
like nanoampere, nanosecond, femtosecond, single photon,analog
multiplication, ultra low noise, Gigahertz, ultra high vacuum,
tunneling microscope etc, on the other hand I end up specifing the 3
phase power and enviromental stuff as well. I also write patent apps.
While my degree is in social studies education, I've been working with
electronics since I was 10 or 12. Getting past a personel office in my
situation is usually a matter of pure luck or a act of God. Having
that PE after your name would open many doors for you here in Ohio.
Around here the PE test is tough and means you know a quite bit
more then the basic EE curriculum, including some civil and mechanical
engineering and codes. No matter what I do unless I go back to school,
pay about 30K$ and set in 3 more years of classes, the best I will
ever get is "gifted amateur" as a title. I've been in the current job
for 5+ years and I asked for a simple title change,from research
associate to R.A. II or Technologist, not a raise, and was refused as
I'm "not qualified", dispite being the senior RA in the building. My
job status and privilages are "postdoctoral" ironically as thats where
I fit in the organizational tree. It gets annoying to have to tell the
uninformed to please not call me "doctor".
HR people are usually scared of me, and I have enough self
employment time to push things over the edge, ie "he can manage
himself too!" which means I'm a threat to them. Ironically I'm told
I'm way over qualified for production jobs at defense contractors
around here when I apply.
EEs understand my position, so when I need a job I have to find a EE
to hire me, not somebody who has a MBA or whatever is needed to be a
HR idiot. Nobody in a personel department ever belives one can learn
skills on their own. Granted I am professional enough to refuse tasks
in which a PE is required and/or severe liability is involved, nor can
I legally call myself a engineer, although my boss introduces me as
the engineering guy and he is a EE/PHD.
So as one from the other fence, crippled by a learning disability in
higher mathmatics, I'd say dont set on your laurels with just the
BSEE, get the charter and/or a masters.
Steve Roberts