PCB Design Kit Questions.
Lacy
learning and hobby projects. I was wanting to get opinions a to what would
be the best way to make printed circuit boards that actually looked like
printed circuit board,s but without all the etching chemicals (doing this in
my house and have low tolerance to chemical smells) and photo equipment need
for applying the resist (a.k.a Cheap Bastard)
The cheaper the better, but I am still looking for a descent looking board.
I would also like some opinions on a Radio Shack item I saw on their
website. It is the Craig Circuit Pen. Is it any good for design work or is
it just mainly for small repairs?
Is it any good in repairing board traces?
Any opinions would be appreciated. I know in advance what I ask will not
result in an extremely good quality board, but I would like to start small
and work my way up to the more expensive stuff later.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Pooh Bear
Lacy wrote:
> It is the Craig Circuit Pen. Is it any good for design work or is
> it just mainly for small repairs?
You still have to etch - using the 'nasty' chemicals.
Graham
samIam
well designed and functional boards.
youll also need to invest in a drill and bench press and cleaning
solvents.
I personally prefer the toner transfer method with the press and peel
(I have the kit for the photo method but have never tried it).
You can get really nice looking boards .. check out some examples:
http://www.geocities.com/asa386/My6502Sbc_Anubis/pcb_manufacture/
Oh get gloves and LOTS of it
Lacy
and refresh my memory on how it is done. I would assume this is cheaper do
than the photo process (correct me if I am wrong)
Lacy
Thanks. Things are never a simple as one thinks they are otherwise everyone
would be doing it (I heard that soemwhere before). But it sure fits when it
comes to anything electronic whether it be design or repair.
samIam
> than the photo process (correct me if I am wrong)
Hell yeah.
my middle name is "cheap ass" so I should know :)
If you are going to buy the toner transfer paper ... I would recommend
the blue press-n-peel variety from http://www.techniks.com/
Its cheaper to buy the 20 for $30 than the 5 for $10 at electronic stores.
I buy elec components from ebay and occasionally from allelectronicscorp
but I have yet to find pcb manufacturing materials (other than permanent
marker and copper laminate pcb) on ebay.
DJ Delorie
Having just been through this myself (but with the messy chemicals,
which don't bother me) I have some thoughts:
www.pulsar.gs has a lot of stuff for the toner-transfer method. I've
got their paper, but I'm thinking about buying their starter kit ($100
at digikey) to get the laminator, foil, and thinner boards. Using an
iron and 2oz boards resulted in a poor quality (yet functional) board.
Still uses the messy chemicals, and you don't get plated through
holes.
http://www.lpkfusa.com/RapidPCB/ makes a set of tools that let you
mechanically etch boards (CNC router) and laminate them together to
make multilayer boards. Kinda expensive for a home hobby though, but
you do get 4 layer boards this way.
If you don't need mask or silk, http://www.4pcb.com/ has a "bare
bones" special that's pretty reasonable ($44+0.50/in2) for one-off
boards. If you want a couple, their $33/3 gives you mask and silk
too. There are more and more companies doing cheap prototype fabs
these days, and you *do* get plated through holes.
samIam
> bones" special that's pretty reasonable ($44+0.50/in2) for one-off
> boards. If you want a couple, their $33/3 gives you mask and silk
> too. There are more and more companies doing cheap prototype fabs
> these days, and you *do* get plated through holes.
But this takes away from the fun of pointing at a project and calling
it your own.
If I were selling the results I would use PCB fab houses ... but for
hobby work .. you cant beat doing it yourself.
RST Engineering (jw)
This guy uses picture paper from Staples, muriatic acid from Home
Depot,hydrogen peroxide from the drug store and claims to be able to do very
narrow traces quite easily.
Jim
"Lacy" <la...@cwv.net> wrote in message
news:1136564...@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
zwsd...@gmail.com
samIam wrote:
> > If you don't need mask or silk, http://www.4pcb.com/ has a "bare
> > bones" special that's pretty reasonable ($44+0.50/in2) for one-off
>
> it your own.
No it doesn't. The design and assembly are all you. I don't machine my
own brake rotors, I send them to a shop. Doesn't detract from the
status of the car as a hobby project.
DJ Delorie
samIam <h...@here.com> writes:
> But this takes away from the fun of pointing at a project and calling
> it your own.
True, unless your project requires plated through holes, such as vias
under parts (BGAs) or occluded pins (such as under terminal blocks
where you can't solder them). Or ground planes. Or mask (narrow
pitch SMD).
Of course, I did mention that I was thinking about getting more
home-brew equipment myself :-)
Rich Webb
>I am interested in designing and making small printed circuit boards for my
>learning and hobby projects. I was wanting to get opinions a to what would
>be the best way to make printed circuit boards that actually looked like
>printed circuit board,s but without all the etching chemicals (doing this in
>my house and have low tolerance to chemical smells) and photo equipment need
>for applying the resist (a.k.a Cheap Bastard)
>
>The cheaper the better, but I am still looking for a descent looking board.
>
>I would also like some opinions on a Radio Shack item I saw on their
>website. It is the Craig Circuit Pen. Is it any good for design work or is
>it just mainly for small repairs?
>Is it any good in repairing board traces?
>
>Any opinions would be appreciated. I know in advance what I ask will not
>result in an extremely good quality board, but I would like to start small
>and work my way up to the more expensive stuff later.
If you're only making one, then the simplest, cheapest, fastest way is
probably to use a protoboard (http://www.futurlec.com/ProtoBoards.shtml
and many others) and point-to-point wire where necessary. It will NOT
look pretty but gives good results for one-off projects.
I usually go for the "three holes per pad plus power/ground buss"
variety, some folks prefer "one hole per pad" and others prefer
stripboard (probably TM somebody and not AFAIK available retail on this
side of the pond).
If you're doing a run of (pick your threshold of pain) then a board
house is really the only way to go. There are some that are quite
inexpensive for two sides/no mask/no silkscreen and others that are not
really that unreasonable for "real" professional boards.
http://www.apcircuits.com/ is generally well thought of around these
parts. Pick up a copy of Nuts & Volts or Circuit Cellar and check the
adverts for vendors that cater to small run jobs.
One thing to consider if you're doing a board layout vice the "stick 'm
on and wire 'm in" method is ... having to do a board layout. PCB layout
packages range in cost from free (GPL) to kilo-$ and all have their own
learning curve and time costs.
--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
JeffM
>This guy uses picture paper from Staples,
>muriatic acid from Home Depot,
>hydrogen peroxide from the drug store
>and claims to be able to do very narrow traces quite easily.
I have tried it. (My traces weren't especially narrow.)
I used some clay-covered paper that had a mailer ad on 1 side.
(I was trying for CHEAP.)
It took a fair amount of patience and time
to remove the semi-solid pulp that resulted after soaking the paper.
(I used a semi-stiff acid brush.)
Required a bit of touch-up before etching.
I switched to the blue stuff very quickly.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/46bdd51e54a09491/2e84151bb7ceaa82?q=*-hammered-*-*-thermocouple-*-flat-as-I-could-*-stuck-it-under-*-FR4+blue-stuff+melted-the-film+white-stuff
budgie
>I am interested in designing and making small printed circuit boards for my
>learning and hobby projects. I was wanting to get opinions a to what would
>be the best way to make printed circuit boards that actually looked like
>printed circuit board,s but without all the etching chemicals (doing this in
>my house and have low tolerance to chemical smells) and photo equipment need
>for applying the resist (a.k.a Cheap Bastard)
>
>The cheaper the better, but I am still looking for a descent looking board.
>
>I would also like some opinions on a Radio Shack item I saw on their
>website. It is the Craig Circuit Pen. Is it any good for design work or is
>it just mainly for small repairs?
>Is it any good in repairing board traces?
>
>Any opinions would be appreciated. I know in advance what I ask will not
>result in an extremely good quality board, but I would like to start small
>and work my way up to the more expensive stuff later.
I suspect most lurkers in this group have been there at some point in their
lives.
Mechanical aka router type solution are expensive. Great for same-hour in-house
protos in a pro house. Not for hobby unless your surname is Gates/Hilton etc.
So it's back to considering chemical etching. The good thing about
etch-your-own is that you'll soon discover why most of us don't any more. Once
the novelty is over, you'll appreciate the no-mess fab house approach. Even for
small batches, it gives a quality product at a price that almost all hobbyists
can justify. There are a growing number of fab houses that accommodate small
orders by consolidating them onto commercial panels. I currently use Futurlec
(www.futurlec.com) for all small jobs, and some that are so small they probably
laugh when they see the order. One I sent off just after Xmas was for three of
a 3100*1700 (thou/mil) double-sided job. Beats the hell out of the mess and the
task of trying to get all your dual-in-line holes actually in line. And when
you decide that plated-through-holes are better than wire bridges, I'm sure
you'll go the same route.
Please don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to talk you out of it, but I am
pointing out the realities as I see them after 35 years in electronics (both as
a hobby and a professional).
zwsd...@gmail.com
DJ Delorie wrote:
> If you don't need mask or silk, http://www.4pcb.com/ has a "bare
> bones" special that's pretty reasonable ($44+0.50/in2) for one-off
> boards. If you want a couple, their $33/3 gives you mask and silk
The 33 each deal is a much better buy if you meet the requirements. I
had good results from e-teknet.com also, somewhat cheaper than AC's
prices. Downside is that the boards are batched up and made in China
and hence delivery time is slower (much slower) and you don't have the
same process visibility that AC gives you (AC tells you exactly what
stage the boards are at right up to the time of shipment, and you get
the track# from the factory direct to your door).
You wind up paying more or less $100 for a minimum order of prototypes
regardless of where you buy; the difference lies in what you get for
that money :)
bill....@ieee.org
Lacy wrote:
> I am interested in designing and making small printed circuit boards for my
> learning and hobby projects. I was wanting to get opinions a to what would
> be the best way to make printed circuit boards that actually looked like
> printed circuit board,s but without all the etching chemicals (doing this in
> my house and have low tolerance to chemical smells) and photo equipment need
> for applying the resist (a.k.a Cheap Bastard)
>
If you are working with leaded components, you can make perfectly
respectable-looking circuits on matrix board. The trick is to wire the
board with solid - not stranded wire - so you can bend the wires to fit
tidily around the integrated circuits, and - once you have got the bulk
of the wiring in place - to tie the wires to the board by threading
heavy thread or fishing line though convenient holes in the board, so
that the wire bundles stay where you put them.
If you use enamelled transformer wire to make the connections you can
route quite a few wires through the 0.1" (2.54mm) gap between the
individual holes in the matrix board.
If you buy good quality matrix board, with a "collander" ground plane
over one side of the board (Farnell certrainly used to stock it) this
can work up to quite high frequencies (well into the MHz region). I've
hacked surface mount components onto this sort of board by carving up
the circular copper pads on the other side of such a board to provide
lands to which I could solder some of the SMD leads.
When I first started in electronics, this was the regular way to built
prototye circuits and one-off systems. We had "wiremen" whose full-time
job was building such boards. An 8"x 8" board (roughly equivalent to a
double Eurocard today) would take a couple of weeks, and always
included a few mistakes which you had to find and fix.
Good wiremen often found your mistakes on the circuit diagram, and
sometimes corrected them without telling you, which was another kind of
problem.
A Cambridge Instruments prototype stroboscopic voltage sensing electron
microscope worked for some years at Thompson-EFCIS at Grenoble with a
bunch of hand wired matrix boards that I'd designed and - in part -
rewired.
For fast circuits or critical layouts, this didn't produce real
prototypes, and we'd have to get a printed circuit layout done with
black tape on mylar film, then manually edit the first layout to sort
out the teething troubles.
The stroboscopic part of the Thompson-EFCIS machine used 100k ECL and
5GHz wide-band transistors, and that was on printed circuit board from
the start. The second version could get the electron beam pulse width
down to 800psec using a hand-tweaked Percival distributed amplifier
built with BFR96 transistors. The production version - I installed the
first one at Siemens (now Infineon) at Munich in 1984 - got down to
500psec, but that used a single long-tailed pair of microwave power
transistors. Much more expensive, but simpler and faster.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
budgie
The "minimum order" is one helluva lot less than $(US?)100 at some places -
which is why I use or have used them.
Pooh Bear
bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> We had "wiremen" whose full-time
> job was building such boards. An 8"x 8" board (roughly equivalent to a
> double Eurocard today) would take a couple of weeks, and always
> included a few mistakes which you had to find and fix.
>
> Good wiremen often found your mistakes on the circuit diagram, and
> sometimes corrected them without telling you, which was another kind of
> problem.
Those were the days ! ;-)
Graham
David Harmon
<la...@cwv.net> wrote,
>I am interested in designing and making small printed circuit boards for my
>learning and hobby projects.
For small single-sided boards I enthusiastically recommend
the toner transfer system as described by Tom Gootee at
http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
Follow his instructions closely.
I do the layout with the free version of Eagle
http://www.cadsoft.de
DJ Delorie
And if you need 3 boards.
One of the things most people don't learn about prototypes is that
they shouldn't try to make them the "final". Expect them to have
problems; design them to be fixable. That means making one at a time
until you get it right, *then* looking for volume deals.
So, I have a stack of three unusable boards from my 33each purchase,
and one bare bones that works. Sigh.
Spehro Pefhany
<d...@delorie.com> wrote:
>
>zwsd...@gmail.com writes:
>> The 33 each deal is a much better buy if you meet the requirements.
>
>And if you need 3 boards.
>
>One of the things most people don't learn about prototypes is that
>they shouldn't try to make them the "final". Expect them to have
>problems; design them to be fixable. That means making one at a time
>until you get it right, *then* looking for volume deals.
I don't consider 3 pieces "volume". It's about the minimum usable if
you're working for an outside client or an internal client at another
location. You want minimum two boards populated (one for you and one
for them) and working and one to ruin or keep around as blank. If you
do field tests, then 5+ is more like it. I find an extra board or two
to be a LOT less irritating than having to pay a second set of
handling, setup and shipping charges to get one or two additional
boards that are essentially identical.
>So, I have a stack of three unusable boards from my 33each purchase,
>and one bare bones that works. Sigh.
I've ordered 500-1,000 boards without a prototype (including
multilayer). Even many hundreds of populated boards without seeing a
prototype. If you strive for ZERO defects and develop a comprehensive
checklist for projects (beyond just DRC and covering all the errors
you've ever made and those you've heard about too) you can get usable
boards almost every time, and the reduced time to market will more
than pay for the rare problem. The biggies IME are hole sizes and
mismatches of schematic pin numbers (or even part pin numbers) to
footprint pin numbers, and using a library footprint without fully
verifying that it is what you think it is.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Lacy
give me a lot to think about and read about before I dive into it. Thanks a
bunch everyone.
Richard H.
> I am interested in designing and making small printed circuit boards for my
> learning and hobby projects. I was wanting to get opinions a to what would
> be the best way to make printed circuit boards that actually looked like
> printed circuit board,s but without all the etching chemicals (doing this in
> my house and have low tolerance to chemical smells) and photo equipment need
> for applying the resist (a.k.a Cheap Bastard)
There's a spectrum of sorts... hand-wired, self-etch, and board house.
Self-etch can be done quick & dirty, but as you work toward nicer
results you'll find yourself using layout software. This leaves you
only a small step from using a board house, and getting vastly nicer
results / better capability. Then it's a matter of turnaround time.
If you need boards in less than a couple weeks turnaround, you need to
look at self-etch, whether you do it yourself or find a cohort who'll do
the chemical dirty work for you. Getting started is cheap (USD$35 for a
whole kit): http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/416k.html
If you can be patient for the delivery time, moving up to a board house
adds a whole lot of capability - solder resist (easier assembly
[especially for surface-mount parts], professional-looking results),
plated through holes (stronger joints, double-sided boards),
silkscreened part numbers. Not to mention being pre-drilled. And the
lack of chemical handling & storage.
There are shops that specialize in small one-offs, like SparkFun
(http://www.batchpcb.com/faq.php, $2.50/sq.in. + $10 s&h) and Olimex
(http://www.olimex.com).
There are several free layout packages out there. Eagle has a very
capable and popular free version (http://www.cadsoftusa.com).
If you go the self-etch route, I recommend against the toner transfer
method because I've had very poor results with it. YMMV. For the
incremental cost of photo-resist boards, it's worth printing on
transparency and exposing under a room light. (No need for expensive
lighting rigs, though you'll need to test exposure times with your
lighting source.)
FWIW,
Richard
Apostrophe Police
> Thanks for that. I had forgotten about the toner method. I will research it
> and refresh my memory on how it is done. I would assume this is cheaper do
^^^^^^
> than the photo process (correct me if I am wrong)
Yes, you're wrong to ass-u-me. ;-)
--
Rich Grise, Self-Appointed Chief,
Apostrophe Police
Rich Grise
> I am interested in designing and making small printed circuit boards for my
> learning and hobby projects. I was wanting to get opinions a to what would
> be the best way to make printed circuit boards that actually looked like
> printed circuit board,s but without all the etching chemicals (doing this in
> my house and have low tolerance to chemical smells) and photo equipment need
> for applying the resist (a.k.a Cheap Bastard)
>
> The cheaper the better, but I am still looking for a descent looking board.
>
> I would also like some opinions on a Radio Shack item I saw on their
> website. It is the Craig Circuit Pen. Is it any good for design work or is
> it just mainly for small repairs?
> Is it any good in repairing board traces?
>
> Any opinions would be appreciated. I know in advance what I ask will not
> result in an extremely good quality board, but I would like to start small
> and work my way up to the more expensive stuff later.
>
I etched a board once, and it came out acceptable, but it was not fun.
What I've mostly done for prototypes was to get that Vectorbord(tm) with
pad-per-hole on one side, plated-thru holes, and a ground plane (more like
a grid, of course) on the other side. Then just wire point-to-point with
#30 wire-wrap wire. I've done a 4 MHz 68HC11 that way, and it worked. :-)
Good Luck!
Rich
zwsd...@gmail.com
DJ Delorie wrote:
> zwsd...@gmail.com writes:
> > The 33 each deal is a much better buy if you meet the requirements.
>
> And if you need 3 boards.
>
> One of the things most people don't learn about prototypes is that
> they shouldn't try to make them the "final". Expect them to have
I would not consider ordering less than three boards for a first-spin
prototype.
1 piece to hack about, cut tracks, experiment with different values,
solder on probe wires. This board usually becomes pretty flaky by the
end of the bring-up session.
After I get the circuit working, 1 piece to build cleanly with all
patches applied as neatly as possible and show to the customer (or, if
I destroy #1, this board becomes the development prototype).
1 board remains blank so I can buzz out problems.
An accident that fries a board is merely irritating if you can go to a
spare, it's enormously costly if you have to pay 1-day turn prices to
get another one so you can meet the customer's deadline.
The only thing I don't like about the 33 each price is that if I'm
prototyping something 1"x2" I would like to pay less than something
6"x9"; it seems wasteful. For example, I'm making an electronic
business card/marketing tool that will be sent to select prospects.
It's standard business card size (though thicker), with a LED matrix on
one side. I am sending this out to one of the houses that charges for a
panel and doesn't care how many subpanels are inside it.
DJ Delorie
I understand where you're all coming from, but you all mentioned the
same thing: customers. There's a category of people who don't have
customers. We need ONE board at a time. When we assemble a board,
one of three things happens:
1. The board works. We're done.
2. The board doesn't work, but we can get it to work. We're done.
3. The board needs to be changed. We fab a new one.
This is true for me now as a home hobbiest. It was true for me when I
designed 80386 motherboards. I plan on designing my next board to
fail, and be fixed, and I want the least expensive single board I can
find. Either it works or it needs to be debugged, neither require
multiple boards.
Spehro Pefhany
<d...@delorie.com> wrote:
Fine, but keep in mind that it costs very little extra (perhaps 10%)
to produce several boards compared to one. Most of the cost is in
setup not in the few cents of extra material used. Also, yield is not
perfect so PCB makers generally have to start more boards than they
expect to deliver (they often ask to be allowed to deliver over or
under the order quantity by some margin such as 5% or 10%). So maybe
if you're a hobbyist you want to share with another person or keep one
for a spare, it's really just about free anyway.
zwsd...@gmail.com
> 1. The board works. We're done.
>
> 2. The board doesn't work, but we can get it to work. We're done.
So you're happy to have your hobby project contain a PCB full of hacks,
heat-damaged traces from parts being removed and replaced, and so on?
Buying 2 boards vs. 1 board is not a 100% price increase, it's more
like a 15% price increase. It's insurance. Even if I am only building
one board, I want that board to be the best possible. And I do a _lot_
of home hobby projects!
> This is true for me now as a home hobbiest. It was true for me when I
> designed 80386 motherboards. I plan on designing my next board to
Huh. In my day job we have a minimum order of 9 _panels_ for
prototypes. The projects I work on are mostly 6-up so that's a minimum
order of 54 boards.
I have one project (which I hope to God will finish itself and
disappear soon) that is 24-up, so every spin is 216 boards minimum.
DJ Delorie
zwsd...@gmail.com writes:
> So you're happy to have your hobby project contain a PCB full of
> hacks, heat-damaged traces from parts being removed and replaced,
> and so on?
Well, if I wasn't, it would have been case #3 instead ;-)
I have such a board in my furnace. Flying transistors, cut traces,
etc. Having a second board that looked like that wouldn't help.
Having a second board with corrected traces on it would.
Rich Grise, but drunk
> Please don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to talk you out of it, but I
> am pointing out the realities as I see them after 35 years in
> electronics (both as a hobby and a professional).
But, why are you named after a bird?
Thanks,
Rich
budgie
wrote:
because all the animal names were taken ;-)
Joseph2k
> On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:07:26 -0500, Lacy wrote:
>
>> Thanks for that. I had forgotten about the toner method. I will research
>> it and refresh my memory on how it is done. I would assume this is
>> cheaper do
> ^^^^^^
>> than the photo process (correct me if I am wrong)
>
> Yes, you're wrong to ass-u-me. ;-)
Use reference "Gootee board" for google
--
JosephKK
Joseph2k
And i thought Order Aves of Phylum Vertabrae were part of Kingdom Animae.
--
JosephKK