Pirated Press N Peel for Making PCB's
D from BC
occasion I do revisit Press N Peel.
What's that blue stuff anyways?
The blue has a matte finish like flat paint on a film that is
probably just plain laser transparency film.
Most laquer coatings may have too much adhesion to the
transparency film.
Acrylic primers are matte like the Blue stuff but I suspect may
not handle the laser printer heat.
So....I'm wondering if I could make my own Press N Peel by
getting a can of BBQ paint (high heat rating probably due to
silicone) and spraying it on laser transparency film?
Bye bye laser printer?
Any coating ideas?
sleb...@gmail.com
People who use the toner transfer method have repeatedly gotten good
results using glossy inkjet photo paper with laser printers. Good ones
will cost you roughly 20 cents each.
The trick is to try lots of different brands to find one you're
comfortable working with. Different types of glossy paper behave
differently. The original method recommends you soak the paper&board in
warm soapy water and slowly peel away the layers of paper. Some work
better with cold water. Some work without soaking - exactly like
press-n-peel. The one I'm using works best if you peel it without
soaking while it's still hot (usually between 1 to 2.5 seconds after I
lift the iron).
Of course, some people feel they shouldn't be using inkjet paper in a
laser printer. Haven't damaged my old HP Laserjet yet.
a7yvm1...@netzero.com
> So....I'm wondering if I could make my own Press N Peel by
> getting a can of BBQ paint (high heat rating probably due to
> silicone) and spraying it on laser transparency film?
>
> Bye bye laser printer?
>
> Any coating ideas?
I think the universe will shrink into a quantum black hole and I still
won't understand you DIY PCB guys. Just send your gerbers to Olimex and
you'll get a complete PCB with soldermask and plated through holes for
like 40$.
You can't pay me enough to spend my precious free time dicking around
with paper and toner and chemicals to end up with a product inferior in
every respect.
But it's your time to waste I suppose.
DJ Delorie
a7yvm1...@netzero.com writes:
> Just send your gerbers to Olimex and you'll get a complete PCB with
> soldermask and plated through holes for like 40$.
That's more than it would cost to DIY, and we won't get it for a
couple of weeks. Aside from the mask and PTH, why is that better?
Besides, making PCBs is fun. You get to make something with your own
two hands, and it's ready to use right away.
a7yvm1...@netzero.com
> a7yvm1...@netzero.com writes:
> > Just send your gerbers to Olimex and you'll get a complete PCB with
> > soldermask and plated through holes for like 40$.
>
> That's more than it would cost to DIY, and we won't get it for a
Is your time free? That's amazing, I've got a few projects here for you
to work on! :)
I don't get it. Is 40$ that much money to get a real PCB made? I'm
honestly baffled. I think if you try it once, you'll never ever waste
your time and energy making a PCB, it's just ridiculous. Isn't it more
fun to concentrate on the electronics than on the paper, chemicals and
drilling?
I mean, how much have you spent on tools, time and materials to get to
the point where you can make a PCB and be sure it solders properly,
doesn't have over-etch, and how do you make anything even remotely
useful without PTH? Wouldn't that time and money be better spent on
electronics?
James Morrison
> a7yvm1...@netzero.com writes:
> > Just send your gerbers to Olimex and you'll get a complete PCB with
> > soldermask and plated through holes for like 40$.
>
> That's more than it would cost to DIY
Only if you count your own time a $0/hour. Anything else makes the
cheap PCB houses win out in cost.
> , and we won't get it for a
> couple of weeks.
There are places with faster turnaround than that. Alberta Printed
Circuits comes to mind.
> Aside from the mask and PTH, why is that better?
To me the mask is the hands-down best part. Without solder mask it is
so easy to have a short that can cause enormous debugging costs because
there happens to be a short somewhere. Again, time = money so this
alone makes it worthwhile.
> Besides, making PCBs is fun. You get to make something with your own
> two hands, and it's ready to use right away.
I'm not so sure about the fun factor. There are a million other things
I'd consider doing for fun before making a PCB by hand.
James.
DJ Delorie
a7yvm1...@netzero.com writes:
> Is your time free?
When I'm doing my hobby stuff, yes.
> I don't get it. Is 40$ that much money to get a real PCB made? I'm
> honestly baffled. I think if you try it once, you'll never ever waste
> your time and energy making a PCB, it's just ridiculous.
I've done both, I know the difference. If I need a small board with
mostly SMD parts on it, or a throw-away board to try something, I just
make it myself. It doesn't take that long, and I don't have to wait
for it.
Why should I spend $40 for a board with $3 worth of parts on it, when
I can make it in 20-25 minutes? My day job pays $50/hour, so any
board move expensive than $25 is not worth my time to pay someone else
to make, if I can (as usual) make it in half an hour.
> Isn't it more fun to concentrate on the electronics than on the
> paper, chemicals and drilling?
Hmmm... when it's a hobby, and I spend weeks on the design and half an
hour on the pcb? Sure.
> Wouldn't that time and money be better spent on electronics?
Why spend all that time and money on electronics? Would it be better
to buy a cheap knock-off from China?
Perspective. I like making stuff myself. When the effort exceeds the
fun factor, and I can affort the cost/time, I send out.
Archilochus
Well... I make a fair number of one-off basic "hobby" PCB's that might
be around 1.5" sq. for all sorts of assorted dumb projects. Shelling
out 40 bucks for that kind of stuff could get mighty expensive! And the
inevitable changes in design that need a new PCB would up the cost &
wait time even more.
Arch
Archilochus
Well... I make a fair number of one-off basic "hobby" PCB's that might
DJ Delorie
James Morrison <sp...@emorrison.ca> writes:
> To me the mask is the hands-down best part. Without solder mask it is
> so easy to have a short that can cause enormous debugging costs because
> there happens to be a short somewhere.
http://www.delorie.com/pcb/smd-challenge/
The two prototypes were home-made boards with NO mask or silk, and
both worked just fine. That's 01005 capacitors and 0.4mm pitch ICs.
Besides, on parts that fine, cheap proto houses can't put mask between
the pins anyway. The last board I sent out was that way for the
smallest pitch parts (some 0.64mm and all 0.5mm). (and don't say "pay
for better" because this is a hobby)
Yes, mask helps a lot, but it is *not* always required.
Here's the 01005 cap:
http://www.delorie.com/pcb/first.html
Also, some of the home-brew folks can print masks at home with
modified inkjet printers.
DJ Delorie
"Archilochus" <archil...@yahoo.com> writes:
> Well... I make a fair number of one-off basic "hobby" PCB's that might
> be around 1.5" sq. for all sorts of assorted dumb projects. Shelling
My smallest board so far is 0.2 by 0.5 inches. That's 0.1 sq.in.
It's an adapter to plug an SMD RGB LED into a breadboard.
a7yvm1...@netzero.com
Archilochus wrote:
> Well... I make a fair number of one-off basic "hobby" PCB's that might
> be around 1.5" sq. for all sorts of assorted dumb projects. Shelling
> out 40 bucks for that kind of stuff could get mighty expensive! And the
> inevitable changes in design that need a new PCB would up the cost &
> wait time even more.
>
> Arch
You do realize you can put more than one PCB on your panel?
D from BC
I sometimes like DIY.
My record DIY PCB turnaround is about 1hour. So it gets
tempting..Especially on a long weekend when the PCB houses might be
closed.
Archilochus
Well... I make a fair number of one-off basic "hobby" PCB's that might
D from BC
fk up after fk up...$40.00 iterations and time can add up.
I've messed up with trace resistance,creepage,electric or mag
pick up, classic grounding problems...
.
DJ Delorie
myreal...@comic.com (D from BC) writes:
> Think about the electronics newbies and the horror of doing PCB fk
> up after fk up...$40.00 iterations and time can add up.
I've been doing my own boards since high school. It's a learning
experience, but so? I'd rather learn from experience than never learn
at all. Plus I didn't have the $40 back then.
Besides, "newbies" are hopefully starting out with simpler circuits,
too, which won't be that demanding on the board.
> I've messed up with trace resistance,creepage,electric or mag pick
> up, classic grounding problems...
If you need that kind of precision in board fab, yeah, have it made.
Like I said, I do both, because I know how well I can make a board and
when I should have someone else do it.
sleb...@gmail.com
> On Fri, 2006-12-15 at 09:45 -0500, DJ Delorie wrote:
> > a7yvm1...@netzero.com writes:
> > > Just send your gerbers to Olimex and you'll get a complete PCB with
> > > soldermask and plated through holes for like 40$.
> >
> > That's more than it would cost to DIY
>
> Only if you count your own time a $0/hour. Anything else makes the
> cheap PCB houses win out in cost.
Let's do some calculation (converted to US$). Based on my salary my
time is $7/hour.
Let's ignore the time spent in CAD since I'll have to do it either way.
I use the toner transfer method so let's also include cost of
consumables:
Glossy paper: 20 cents.
Copper plated board: $4, we won't be using all of it for a small PCB so
let's assume 20 cents.
Time to print = 30 seconds * salary ~= 6 cents
Ironing time = 3 minutes * salary ~= 35 cents
Etching time = 10 minutes (is actually less but depends on how fresh my
etchant is) * salary ~= $1.20
Washing etc = 2 minutes * salary ~= 23 cents
Lets assume we need some corrections (rare these days with my workflow)
= 5 minutes * salary ~= 58 cents
Total cost inclusive of my time: $2.82
That's a lot cheaper than the cheapest PCB house around here at $42.
And consider that the $42 price is if I pick up my PCB from the factory
(actually quite near my house) so I'll be wasting my time driving
there.
I decided to learn DIY PCB making because a lot of newer chips are only
available in surface mount packages and neither sending out my gerber
nor buying SMD to DIN adaptors were cost effective. SMD to DIN adaptors
are anywhere from $10 to $30 around here so it's still cheaper to DIY
my prototypes.
And the time spent "learning" the process wasn't much either. I
basically got it right in a weekend. Of course, a lot depends on the
quality of your materials so YMMV but once you've got it right it only
takes 20 minutes to do a full PCB (depends on your etchant, Hydrogen
Peroxide + Acid is very fast at room temp without a bubble tank).
samiam
> I think the universe will shrink into a quantum black hole and I still
> won't understand you DIY PCB guys. Just send your gerbers to Olimex and
> you'll get a complete PCB with soldermask and plated through holes for
> like 40$.
that sir is INSANITY!!!
I can have a board ready to drill out an 1/2 hour after the layout is
done. TOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have a bench press and drill. since vias are all the same size,
pin/pads etc I can drill out the entire board in under an hour (I take
my time here, and some of my hobby boards are up to 8x8 in size)
then i am ready to mount and solder components, make whatever changes I
deem necessary as I go along.
I gurantee you Ill have the board ready for testing the same day (in
only a few hours) and considerably CHEAPER to manufacture since I have
already made the investment in tools.
samiam
>> Wouldn't that time and money be better spent on electronics?
>
> Why spend all that time and money on electronics? Would it be better
> to buy a cheap knock-off from China?
Good response. I couldnt have said it better myself.
I remember the old days when people actually looked forward to getting
into the guts of a project, instead of outsourcing so much of it.
DJ Delorie
"sleb...@yahoo.com" <sleb...@gmail.com> writes:
> takes 20 minutes to do a full PCB (depends on your etchant, Hydrogen
> Peroxide + Acid is very fast at room temp without a bubble tank).
FeCl is fast if you wipe it on with a sponge instead of just letting
it sit in the tank, even with agitation. You can somewhat control
overetching that way too, by only wiping the less-etched parts.
DJ Delorie
samiam <samiamS...@spamalert.com> writes:
> I remember the old days when people actually looked forward to
> getting into the guts of a project, instead of outsourcing so much
> of it.
Oh crap, does that mean I'm old?
Rich Grise
> DJ Delorie wrote:
>> a7yvm1...@netzero.com writes:
>> > Just send your gerbers to Olimex and you'll get a complete PCB with
>> > soldermask and plated through holes for like 40$.
>>
>> That's more than it would cost to DIY, and we won't get it for a
>
> Is your time free? That's amazing, I've got a few projects here for you
> to work on! :)
>
> I don't get it. Is 40$ that much money to get a real PCB made?
Not everybody is making a thousand bucks an hour.
Thanks,
Rich
petrus bitbyter
"sleb...@yahoo.com" <sleb...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1166172058.5...@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
You not only need the right paper, you also need the right laserprinter. I
once had succes using some inkjet paper and a Laserjet 5000. My own Laserjet
4Si and some other laserprinters I could lay my hands on, do not provide
enough toner to cover the black parts.
petrus bitbyter
cs_po...@hotmail.com
> > I don't get it. Is 40$ that much money to get a real PCB made?
>
> Not everybody is making a thousand bucks an hour.
With materials cost and aquisition time, setup, cleanup, and the time
it takes to drill the holes, and no allowance for mistakes, can you
really get it done in less than four hours?
I'd be suprised if there are many people with the skills to design a
PCB who are not earning at least $10/hour. The exceptions might be
teenage hobbyists... which was the last time I did much etching.
RST Engineering (jw)
Jim
"DJ Delorie" <d...@delorie.com> wrote in message
news:xntzzxg...@delorie.com...
RST Engineering (jw)
black bottomside resist pattern. You iron it onto the fiberglass AFTER the
etch.
Jim
"DJ Delorie" <d...@delorie.com> wrote in message
news:xnpsalg...@delorie.com...
DJ Delorie
"RST Engineering \(jw\)" <j...@rstengineering.com> writes:
> It is trivial. You make a black toner topside mask the same way you make a
> black bottomside resist pattern. You iron it onto the fiberglass AFTER the
> etch.
Won't it melt when you solder it? I mean, if it worked, you could do
a multi-color mask and get the silkscreen at the same time.
The inkjet masks are heat resistant.
dagmarg...@yahoo.com
Someone who grosses $10/hr nets only half that after overhead and
taxes, and so could spend eight hours paying for a one-hour job.
I home-brew small, simple boards sometimes for fun, but mostly for
the quick turnaround. For ultra-simple surface mount stuff you just
can't beat it.
Best,
James Arthur
dagmarg...@yahoo.com
DJ Delorie wrote:
> FeCl is fast if you wipe it on with a sponge instead of just letting
> it sit in the tank, even with agitation. You can somewhat control
> overetching that way too, by only wiping the less-etched parts.
Of late I've started using the "float" technique, learned from John
Popelish. Just float the board on the warm FeCl etchant, and do NOT
agitate. Convection delivers fresh etchant upward to the board, while
the denser, spent etchant drops downward.
Much slower than the sponge method (e.g. 12 minutes instead of 4),
but it etches much more vertical walls (curing undercutting problems),
and proceeds unattended--you don't have to be there.
Best,
James Arthur
RST Engineering (jw)
soldering on the farside and the mask is on the nearside.
Jim
"DJ Delorie" <d...@delorie.com> wrote in message
news:xnodq3f...@delorie.com...
sleb...@gmail.com
FeCl to me has 2 disadvantages: first it stains and is "dirty", Acid &
Peroxide are clear and colorless. Second FeCl is comparatively
expensive. Cement bleach is around $1.50 a bottle and Peroxide is $3.00
a bottle. Since the ration is 2:1 I keep 2 bottles of Peroxide along
with my bottle of bleach (besides, Peroxide is also useful as a
disinfectant). I'm still using the first set of bottles I've bought
last year. Though I don't do much etching.
If I do a lot of etching I would have made a bubble tank. Not to speed
up etching but to "regenerate" the etchant with oxygen (actually a
different etchant: CuCl but derived from HCl + Cu while etching) -
saving me even more money. But preparing a solution which can be
regenerated requires more accurate chemistry than my simple 2:1 mix,
just can't be bothered doing it at the quantities I'm consuming.
Professional/Industrial PCB shops use CuCl.
DJ Delorie
"RST Engineering \(jw\)" <j...@rstengineering.com> writes:
> Only if you've got a color laser printer. Why would it melt? You are
> soldering on the farside and the mask is on the nearside.
My boards are mostly SMD so the soldering is done on the nearside.
What's the point of having soldermask on the side you're not soldering
on? Or are you thinking of silkscreen?
RST Engineering (jw)
Jim
"DJ Delorie" <d...@delorie.com> wrote in message
news:xnk60rf...@delorie.com...
Ben Jackson
> Only if you've got a color laser printer. Why would it melt?
Careful, many color laser printers use wax instead of toner.
--
Ben Jackson AD7GD
<b...@ben.com>
http://www.ben.com/
cs_po...@hotmail.com
> Someone who grosses $10/hr nets only half that after overhead and
> taxes, and so could spend eight hours paying for a one-hour job.
Wrong, unless they are self-employed. Someone earning that little is
in a fairly low tax bracket.
$10/hr. 2080 hours year. $20800 pays about $1500 in federal income
tax.
SS/Medicare still seems to be at 7.5% so thats 1560
Lets say you are in Taxachusetts and pay maybe 6% after SS/Medicare -
$1200
(but it's actually better as you can deduct half of your rent)
And they probably don't have health insurance at that pay rate...
So they are effectively taking home about $8 per hour. If it's a kid
with a part time job, they don't get the personal exemption, but they
probably don't have anythere near full time income, so they would pay
even less tax.
But that assumes that a work hour and a hobby hour are interchangeable
- which of course they aren't if you are working full time. From one
perspective, working 40 hours a week you probably can't afford to buy
the PCB and have to make it yourself. On the other hand, if the choice
is between making the PCB yourself and working some optional overtime,
now you are comparing to a pay rate of $15/hour ($12 after taxes)
DJ Delorie
Mine (HP CLJ 2550) seems to use toner for the colors. At least, it
looks like toner under the microscope and toner transfer paper works
just fine with it.
dagmarg...@yahoo.com
Yes, I know the tax rates better than I'd like! You omit overhead,
including the time spent preparing for and commuting to work, and a
bunch of other stuff, which I submit brings the matter close to where I
proposed. Two daily hours of preparation and commuting and what-not
yields n=80% for starters. Then subtract taxes, etc.
Even more telling is when _disposable_ income is considered (a more
proper comparison)--money left over after rent and expenses.
High-earners lose lots of their excess to taxes, low-earners don't have
as much left over to spend.
For either case--rich or poor--it's easy to spend a lot more time
buying something than you thought.
In the end, it's only really worth employing someone if they can do
it better/faster/cheaper than you can. If they can, go for it !
I wouldn't think of making a big nasty board myself, but last weekend
I whipped out an 8-transistor, smd, microwatt, picofarad
capacitance-sensor in half an hour with a bit of circuit board and an
etch resist pen. What's not to like about that?
Best,
James Arthur
Archilochus
a7yvm1...@netzero.com wrote:
> Archilochus wrote:
>
> > Well... I make a fair number of one-off basic "hobby" PCB's that might
> > be around 1.5" sq. for all sorts of assorted dumb projects. Shelling
> > out 40 bucks for that kind of stuff could get mighty expensive! And the
> > inevitable changes in design that need a new PCB would up the cost &
> > wait time even more.
>
Sure, but with most of my projects I just need 1 PCB. I don't make
enough stuff to group several different board designs onto a single
larger panel.
Sometime I even break out the ol' Sharpie to make a quick & dirty
little PCB :-)
BTW - sorry about the multiple posts - Google went a bit screwy on me.
Arch
Archilochus
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> Archilochus wrote:
> >
> > BTW - sorry about the multiple posts - Google went a bit screwy on me.
> >
> > Arch
>
>
I could not figure out how to remove them using this "Google Groups"
account - love to learn how if there's a way.
Thanks,
Arch
Michael A. Terrell
Find the message you want to delete. Click the "show options" link.
When the new page shows up, click the "remove" link. Another new page
will open. Select "Yes, remove it now", then the CONFIRM button. You
need to do it as soon as you see that there are duplicates, before they
propagate to other servers.
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Rich Grise
When you're broke and need a prototype, it can't be beat, especially
if you already have the materials and stuff on hand.
Cheers!
Rich
Rich Grise
> dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Someone who grosses $10/hr nets only half that after overhead and
>> taxes, and so could spend eight hours paying for a one-hour job.
>
> Wrong, unless they are self-employed.
Dude, you said the magic words - being able to make your own boards
by hand for pennies is a Godsend when you don't get paid until you
deliver the demo model.
Cheers!
Rich