Do hard drives fail from open covers?
Sam Nickaby
for datas. Later it will not format. Then finally it will click forever and
won't boot. All three have the same thing in common, there covers
were opened for a second in a clean, dust free room out of curiosity.
Do hard drives fail from a quick cover removal?
Thanks
Steve Lewinsky
Did you think the GIGs in the other drives looked different??
Hard drives use very precise floating head. they are very close to the
plattens.
As much as you feel you are in a dust free area when you open then, there is
still alot of dust. It is possible that the regular airbourne dust in your
place has damaged the heads or plattens.
Or the controller boards have just crapped out. Check the connections from
the board to the heads, as these are usually delicate.
"Sam Nickaby" <S...@none.com> wrote in message
news:v%%Ie.3032$fJ1....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
Gerard Bok
wrote:
Yes.
That's why it says: 'do not open' or 'warranty void if seal
broken' on the sticker.
--
Kind regards,
Gerard Bok
John Doe
I accidentally broke the foil seal on one of my Western Digital
hard disk drives. I tried taping it shut but it failed anyway. So
then I tried spraying some WD-40 into it but that didn't do any
good. So I sprayed a lot more in there and it just kept clicking
and clicking. Heheh.
Yes, the fact you opened them and exposed the heads and platter,
and then they failed is a good proof of what those who know will
tell you. The required ultimate physical precision is probably why
recovering data from a hard disk drive is so expensive. On the
other hand, backups are cheap and easy.
BobG
smaller than the dust particles!
Nog
"Sam Nickaby" <S...@none.com> wrote in message
news:v%%Ie.3032$fJ1....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
It's just like throwing a shovel full of gravel on a vinyl record.
Air is filthy. Harddrives are delicate. They are sealed for a reason.
John Fields
wrote:
>Three of my 60-80 Gig Maxtor hard drives failed. First it will not look
---
Yeah, they do.
You may _think_ you were in a dust-free room, but as far as the
drives are concerned, when you opened them up they thought you were
throwing in a bunch of boulders.
--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer
Travis Jordan
Sam Nickaby wrote:
> Three of my 60-80 Gig Maxtor hard drives failed. ...
> All three have the same thing in common,
> there covers were opened for a second in a clean,
> dust free room out of curiosity.
Where did you find a dust free room? Did you rent a clean room or did
you borrow a laminar flow hood?
Ol' Duffer
S...@none.com says...
Maybe this is a troll, but...
In general, there's no such thing as a dust free room.
Hard drive heads fly over the surface of the disk on a
microscopic thin cushion of air, and even tiny bits of
dust will scratch the surface. They are assembled and
sealed in a *very* clean environment. Even clean rooms
where you put on a bunny suit and go through an airlock
are questionable for the level of cleanliness you would
need to open a drive. More appropriate would be the
glove box approach, but you would have to clean the drive
meticulously first, or the dust accumulated on the outside
of the drive from the real world would contaminate the
"clean" environment upon introduction. There are ways
and means to do it, but all are beyond the realm of
"out of curiousity". Do not open working hard drives!
Doing so renders them junk.
Sam Goldwasser
Does anyone have that diagram DEC used to include with
disk drive user/service info? You know the one - it
shows the heads flying over the surface of the disk
next to a particle of dust and cigarette smoke, which
looked like boulders in comparison.
And that was in the days where the flying height was
10 or 100 times greater than it is today!
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JeffM
>>> Sam Nickaby
>
>Does anyone have that diagram
>DEC used to include with disk drive user/service info?
>You know the one -
>it shows the heads flying over the surface of the disk
>next to a particle of dust and cigarette smoke,
>which looked like boulders in comparison.
Yeah. That's the 1st thing that came to my mind.
I tried to Google it, but I'm not finding anything.
It looked like this:
: View in monospaced font (Courier).
: ________
: /
: /
: /
: /
: /
: /
: /
: __________ |
: / \ | human
: / \ | hair
: / \ |
: / \ |
:============== | dust | \
: |_____| ___ | particle | \
: head | | | \
: | \ / \
: air gap \ / \
: | \ / \
: platter | \ / \
:=================================================================
:=================================================================
James Sweet
You may get lucky once in a while, but opening the cover will almost always
kill the drive. Sometimes it'll die moments later, other times it'll go a
few weeks then start developing read errors but once the seal has been
broken the drive should never be trusted again.
Anna Daptor
"JeffM" <jef...@email.com> wrote in message
news:1123352919.4...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
The image included on this page by any chance?
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/op/heads/opHeight.html
Sam Nickaby
> Why would you open all 3 in the first place? Was one not enough?
> Did you think the GIGs in the other drives looked different??
The 20 Gig contains two platters. The 130 Gigs contains 3 platters. How
could 3 platters holds so much data? Straight from its factory wrapper,
I crack the lids open inside a large clean, clear plastic bag inside a hepa
filtered closet which still doesn't help.
JeffM
>>>DEC used to include with disk drive user/service info?
>>>You know the one -
>>>it shows the heads flying over the surface of the disk
>>>next to a particle of dust and cigarette smoke,
>>>which looked like boulders in comparison.
>>> Sam Goldwasser
>>
>> Yeah. That's the 1st thing that came to my mind.
>> I tried to Google it, but I'm not finding anything.
>
>The image included on this page by any chance?
>http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/op/heads/opHeight.html
That's the idea, but as Sam said it showed smoke and dust.
(I'll add that it also included a hair for comparison.)
All the contaminants were shown as perfect circles
to clearly demonstrate the relative diameters.
It was a black & white line drawing IIRC.
Michael Black
There are loads of smaller drives that people don't want, which would
have fulfilled your curiosity. And ironically, you might find that
the smaller the capacity the more the platters.
But you didn't need to open the drives to find out how so few
platters could hold so much capacity. Indeed, opening them didn't
do a bit in answering that.
Michael
John Doe
...
> And ironically, you might find that the smaller the capacity the
more the platters.
That might be interesting trivia if it were true.
http://westerndigital.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=85
Click on the Configuration tab for each of the sizes and look at a
number of platters.
If you can find data for a series which supports your contention,
please post the link.
John Doe
...
> You may get lucky once in a while, but opening the cover will
> almost always kill the drive. Sometimes it'll die moments later,
> other times it'll go a few weeks then start developing read
> errors but once the seal has been broken the drive should never
> be trusted again.
To be clear. No hard disk drive should be trusted. Doesn't really
matter what the apparent condition or known
reliability/MTBF/whatever. Always keep backups of data you
consider important, preferably on removable media.
Sam Goldwasser
But technology is changing so fast that indeed, a drive that appears
similar on the outside may have a different bit density on the platters.
The contention that an older, lower capacity drive, may have more platters
is certainly true!
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Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
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But technology is changing so fast that indeed, a drive that appears
similar on the outside may have a different bit density on the platters.
Allodoxaphobia
Especially if you have any idiots anywhere nearby that think it's
"ok" to take the protective cover off and gawk at the insides.
James Sweet
Modern drives are available at up to 100GB on a single platter.
There's nothing you can do in your home that will make it safe to open a
drive, the moment you crack the seal, the drive is junk. If it doesn't fail
immediately it'll fail within months.
James Sweet
"John Doe" <jd...@usenet.love.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns96AACE6B49...@207.115.63.158...
I've opened a lot of dead drives to harvest the magnets and it's true, older
drives which are often smaller as well typically have more platters than
newer drives. I took apart a 4 gig SCSI drive once that had 7 platters in it
and it seems like I once opened a 1 gig 5.25" SCSI drive that had 10-13
platters.
Jeff Liebermann
<An...@radio.active.co.uk> wrote:
>The image included on this page by any chance?
>http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/op/heads/opHeight.html
See item #38 at:
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com/nooze/support.txt
The hard drives have gotten swifter since 1993. I'm not so sure about
the users.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
AE6KS 831-336-2558
John Doe
> "John Doe" <jdoe usenet.love.invalid> wrote in message
>> et472 FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) wrote:
>> > And ironically, you might find that the smaller the capacity
>> > the more the platters.
>> That might be interesting trivia if it were true.
>> http://westerndigital.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=85
>> Click on the Configuration tab for each of the sizes and look
>> at a number of platters.
>> If you can find data for a series which supports your
>> contention, please post the link.
> I've opened a lot of dead drives to harvest the magnets and it's
> true, older drives which are often smaller as well typically
> have more platters than newer drives. I took apart a 4 gig SCSI
> drive once that had 7 platters in it and it seems like I once
> opened a 1 gig 5.25" SCSI drive that had 10-13 platters.
Are you suggesting that small, old drives have more platters
than large, old drives?
Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
>
>
>
>
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>
JazzMan
>
>
> Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
> decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
>
The number of platters has been decreasing for a while. New
technology allows getting many more bits per unit area on
the platter surface, reducing platter count reduces costs
for the platters, heads, motor size, head drive coils, etc.
The BIOS settings for platter/head counts now are pretty
much not reflective of actual hardware inside the case.
JazzMan
--
**********************************************************
Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
**********************************************************
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
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**********************************************************
Michael Black
John Doe (jd...@usenet.love.invalid) writes:
> "James Sweet" <jamessweet hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "John Doe" <jdoe usenet.love.invalid> wrote in message
>>> et472 FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) wrote:
>
>>> > And ironically, you might find that the smaller the capacity
>>> > the more the platters.
>
>>> That might be interesting trivia if it were true.
>>> http://westerndigital.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=85
>>> Click on the Configuration tab for each of the sizes and look
>>> at a number of platters.
>>> If you can find data for a series which supports your
>>> contention, please post the link.
>
>> I've opened a lot of dead drives to harvest the magnets and it's
>> true, older drives which are often smaller as well typically
>> have more platters than newer drives. I took apart a 4 gig SCSI
>> drive once that had 7 platters in it and it seems like I once
>> opened a 1 gig 5.25" SCSI drive that had 10-13 platters.
>
> Are you suggesting that small, old drives have more platters
> than large, old drives?
>
> Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
> decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
>
Look at floppy disks. 8" were relatively small capacity, though
5.25" when introduced were far smaller. 180K, more or less for
the first generatiion of 5.25" floppies. They make them double-sided,
and capacity doubles. They increase the data rate, and density increases.
Then they move to the smaller 3.5", yet those started out at 360K for
single sided, and double that when double sided came along. They bumped
up to 1.44Meg, and of course there were even 2.88Meg drives if you
paid the money when they were available.
The biggest hard drive I've taken apart hasn't been bigger than 1gig,
and I think it's more like a maximum of about 500megs. Generally they've
been much smaller. And a good portion have been 5.25" drives. I may be
exaggerating if I've found any with more than 3 platters, but I've definitely
seen those, and I have 160meg Quantum in front of me that has 2 platters.
So at the very least density has increased dramatically if one can get
gigs of storage on 2 or 3 platters.
Checking a chart in an old book, it's easy to see listings for drives
with 8 heads (ie 4 platters) with capacity of 60Megs, and even 20megs.
They just got better at making higher density drives. If that hadn't
happened, the drives would be getting bigger as capacity goes up,
rather than getting smaller. And cheaper, for that matter.
I suspect that 1gig SCSI drive, nice and thick, that I recently found
in a Mac Quadra 950 and has a date of about 1994, must have a fair number
of platters. That's still fairly large for the time.
Michael
John Doe
> John Doe wrote:
>> Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
>> decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
> The number of platters has been decreasing for a while. New
> technology allows getting many more bits per unit area on
> the platter surface, reducing platter count reduces costs
> for the platters, heads, motor size, head drive coils, etc.
The argument is true but does not support the assertion
Multiple platter hard disk drives are higher capacity, faster, and
sell for more money. That is the reason they were produced then
and that is the reason they are produced now.
> The BIOS settings for platter/head counts now are pretty
> much not reflective of actual hardware inside the case.
Never have been.
>
>
>
>
> JazzMan
> --
> **********************************************************
> Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
> Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
> **********************************************************
> "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
> supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
> live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
> **********************************************************
>
>
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> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.repair
> Subject: Re: Do hard drives fail from open covers?
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John Doe
> John Doe (jd...@usenet.love.invalid) writes:
...
>> Are you suggesting that small, old drives have more platters
>> than large, old drives?
>> Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
>> decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
> Because designers get better at higher density.
So if everyone wanted the same capacity as before, the number of
platters would decrease. But users want higher capacity.
The reason for multiple platters is greater capacity and also
because the electronics is so much faster. With multiple platters,
the electronics do not have to wait as long for a single
platter/heads to retrieve data.
> Look at floppy disks.
Haven't used them for years and I just bought a 256 MB USB flash
drive. The floppy disk drive is dead, at least here.
Current CDs/DVDs are the same size as a 5 1/4" inch floppy disk.
Yes, of course the capacity is greater.
Consumers pretty much dictate how large a device can be, according
to its usefulness/function. Consumers dictate how much space the
computer can occupy. When the electronics gets smaller, if the
consumer has the same amount of space, the consumer buys the same
size, more powerful computer.
Have fun.
JazzMan
>
> JazzMan <No_Spam airmail.net> wrote:
> > John Doe wrote:
>
> >> Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
> >> decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
>
> > The number of platters has been decreasing for a while. New
> > technology allows getting many more bits per unit area on
> > the platter surface, reducing platter count reduces costs
> > for the platters, heads, motor size, head drive coils, etc.
>
> The argument is true but does not support the assertion
>
> Multiple platter hard disk drives are higher capacity, faster, and
> sell for more money. That is the reason they were produced then
> and that is the reason they are produced now.
>
> > The BIOS settings for platter/head counts now are pretty
> > much not reflective of actual hardware inside the case.
>
> Never have been.
Now I know you're trolling.
Run along, little masturbation-boy...
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee
> Three of my 60-80 Gig Maxtor hard drives failed. First it will not look
> for datas. Later it will not format. Then finally it will click forever and
> won't boot. All three have the same thing in common, there covers
> were opened for a second in a clean, dust free room out of curiosity.
> Do hard drives fail from a quick cover removal?
A hard drive of 100MB can be destroyed by exposing its innards to
untreated air outside of a Class 100 (or lower) positive-pressure clean
room. Considering that you're talking about drives with about 600 times
that data density, the answer is a firm YES!
If you value the contents of a hard drive, and expect to have any
hope of recovering same, never, EVER open the cover outside of the
proper environment, with the proper clothing and the proper tools. Doing
so, even in air that looks like it's "clean, dust free" to the human
eye, can easily cause it to self-destruct in a very short period of run-
time.
Whoever opened those covers is the one you have to blame for the
sudden lack of functionality.
Keep the peace(es).
--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute.
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
kyrrin (a/t) bluefeathertech[d=o=t]calm -- www.bluefeathertech.com
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped
with surreal ports?"
crazy frog
model st446452w seagate, inside
it has 14 disks 28 heads and pair
of the strongest magnets ive ever
had, used 2 g-clamps to pull them apart.
to look at this drive goto seagate's site
"Allodoxaphobia" <bit-b...@config.com> wrote in message
news:slrndfapg1.20...@shell.config.com...
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee
jd...@usenet.love.invalid says...
<snippety>
> Are you suggesting that small, old drives have more platters
> than large, old drives?
Yes, because data densities, in terms of bits per square inch, has
increased dramatically as storage technology has progressed.
I once opened an old CDC 'Wren' SCSI drive. 5.25" full-height form
factor. It had at least ten platters in it, at least 20 heads to match
(one on each side, each platter), and a max capacity of less than a gig.
Years later, I opened up a more modern 4 gig 3.5" form factor
drive (a Seagate 'Hawk' if I recall correctly). It had four platters and
eight heads, yet it had several times the capacity of the much older and
larger Wren drive.
> Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
> decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
That's because you're not taking into consideration the
improvements over the years in magnetic coatings, and the significant
advances in disk head technology. Both factors have greatly increased
available recording density within a given space.
None of us can force you to believe anything, nor do I think
anyone would presume to try. I know what I've seen, I know what I've
read, and I know it to be the truth. If you choose not to believe it,
that's your privilege.
Marcus
--
Marcus
I like people, they are bio-degradable !.
Sam Goldwasser
> JazzMan <No_Spam airmail.net> wrote:
> > John Doe wrote:
>
> >> Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
> >> decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
>
> > The number of platters has been decreasing for a while. New
> > technology allows getting many more bits per unit area on
> > the platter surface, reducing platter count reduces costs
> > for the platters, heads, motor size, head drive coils, etc.
>
> The argument is true but does not support the assertion
>
> Multiple platter hard disk drives are higher capacity, faster, and
> sell for more money. That is the reason they were produced then
> and that is the reason they are produced now.
>
> > The BIOS settings for platter/head counts now are pretty
> > much not reflective of actual hardware inside the case.
>
> Never have been.
Think RLL 40 MB drives. :)
--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Mirror: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/F_mirror.html
Note: These links are hopefully temporary until we can sort out the excessive
traffic on Repairfaq.org.
Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
> et...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) wrote:
>
> ...
> > And ironically, you might find that the smaller the capacity the
> more the platters.
>
> That might be interesting trivia if it were true.
>
> http://westerndigital.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=85
>
> Click on the Configuration tab for each of the sizes and look at a
> number of platters.
>
> If you can find data for a series which supports your contention,
> please post the link.
But technology is changing so fast that indeed, a drive that appears
maa...@panic.xx.tudelft.nl
> Three of my 60-80 Gig Maxtor hard drives failed. First it will not look
> for datas. Later it will not format. Then finally it will click forever and
> won't boot. All three have the same thing in common, there covers
> were opened for a second in a clean, dust free room out of curiosity.
> Do hard drives fail from a quick cover removal?
Yes. Besides that, the faillure rate on those Maxtor drives seems a bit
above average anyway.
---
Met vriendelijke groet,
Maarten Bakker.
maa...@panic.xx.tudelft.nl
> could 3 platters holds so much data? Straight from its factory wrapper,
> I crack the lids open inside a large clean, clear plastic bag inside a hepa
> filtered closet which still doesn't help.
You can read from the drive's serial number (2nd digit) how many heads a
Maxtor drive has. Divide that by two and round upwards to the nearest
integer number to know the number of platters. No need to destroy a
drive for that. By the way, there is a small chance the drives failed
because you didn't tighten the cover screws with enough torque. Might
try that before tossing them.
maa...@panic.xx.tudelft.nl
>> The BIOS settings for platter/head counts now are pretty
>> much not reflective of actual hardware inside the case.
> Never have been.
They have been, mostly before the IDE interface was introduced. Some
early IDE drives reported the true number of heads/sectors as well.
Jamie
> JazzMan <No_Spam airmail.net> wrote:
>
>>John Doe wrote:
>
>
>>>Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
>>>decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
>
>
>>The number of platters has been decreasing for a while. New
>>technology allows getting many more bits per unit area on
>>the platter surface, reducing platter count reduces costs
>>for the platters, heads, motor size, head drive coils, etc.
>
>
> The argument is true but does not support the assertion
>
> Multiple platter hard disk drives are higher capacity, faster, and
> sell for more money. That is the reason they were produced then
> and that is the reason they are produced now.
>
>
>>The BIOS settings for platter/head counts now are pretty
>>much not reflective of actual hardware inside the case.
>
>
> Never have been.
i had WD drives in the past that performed translations and
i am sure the're still drives out there today that still do.
meirman
<jd...@usenet.love.invalid> posted:
>"James Sweet" <jamessweet hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "John Doe" <jdoe usenet.love.invalid> wrote in message
>>> et472 FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) wrote:
>
>>> > And ironically, you might find that the smaller the capacity
>>> > the more the platters.
>
>>> That might be interesting trivia if it were true.
>>> http://westerndigital.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=85
>>> Click on the Configuration tab for each of the sizes and look
>>> at a number of platters.
>>> If you can find data for a series which supports your
>>> contention, please post the link.
>
>> I've opened a lot of dead drives to harvest the magnets and it's
>> true, older drives which are often smaller as well typically
>> have more platters than newer drives. I took apart a 4 gig SCSI
>> drive once that had 7 platters in it and it seems like I once
>> opened a 1 gig 5.25" SCSI drive that had 10-13 platters.
>
>Are you suggesting that small, old drives have more platters
>than large, old drives?
Oh, please. The context was that of a guy who opened 3 new drives to
see how much data they held. The point of the first remark quoted
above was that you can't tell that way. It wasn't a comprehensive
statement about all hard drives, their capacity and the number of
platters.
Didn't you and John Doe notice this? Why bicker?
>Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
>decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
>
Meirman
--
If emailing, please let me know whether
or not you are posting the same letter.
Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.
James Sweet
>
> > I've opened a lot of dead drives to harvest the magnets and it's
> > true, older drives which are often smaller as well typically
> > have more platters than newer drives. I took apart a 4 gig SCSI
> > drive once that had 7 platters in it and it seems like I once
> > opened a 1 gig 5.25" SCSI drive that had 10-13 platters.
>
> Are you suggesting that small, old drives have more platters
> than large, old drives?
>
> Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
> decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
>
>
You're reading way too much into what I'm saying. All I'm suggesting is that
older drives typically have more platters than newer drives, and it's
because of much lower data density on the platters. I didn't see single
platter drives until just a few years ago, before that they almost always
had 2-4 for typical consumer sized drives.
The typical number of platters has been decreasing because platters, heads,
and the associated electronics cost money, as soon as they can bump the data
density up high enough to reduce the number of platters they do it, that's
why 120 gig drives which are currently the largest single platter drives
available are also generally the lowest price per gig.
James Sweet
"crazy frog" <e@t> wrote in message
news:42f5b932$0$12027$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> i opend a dead scsi 68pin 47gig drive
> model st446452w seagate, inside
> it has 14 disks 28 heads and pair
> of the strongest magnets ive ever
> had, used 2 g-clamps to pull them apart.
> to look at this drive goto seagate's site
>
>
Yikes, that's more platters than I've ever seen in a drive. Those magnets
are incredible though, I have a couple of similar ones on my refrigerator,
you have to slide them off the edge to remove them or they warp the
sheetmetal. Watch your fingers around them too.
James Sweet
<maa...@panic.xx.tudelft.nl> wrote in message
news:c6b58$42f60a02$82a12456$28...@news1.tudelft.nl...
Don't even get me started on that one, probably half the dead drives I've
harvested have been Maxtor, I'd never buy another one. For a couple years
Western Digital was making some real crap too, but they seem to have
improved remarkably.
John Doe
> jdoe usenet.love.invalid says...
> <snippety>
>
>> Are you suggesting that small, old drives have more platters
>> than large, old drives?
>
> Yes, because data densities, in terms of bits per square inch,
> has increased dramatically as storage technology has progressed.
Try rereading the question you're replying to.
>> Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
>> decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
>
> That's because you're not taking into consideration the
> improvements
And you are not taking into consideration the demand for even
greater improvements.
> None of us can force you to believe anything, nor do I think
> anyone would presume to try. I know what I've seen, I know
> what I've read,
Citations?
> and I know it to be the truth. If you choose not to believe it,
> that's your privilege.
Considering your first answer is completely off base, yes I might
have a difficult time believing what you say.
>
> Keep the peace(es).
>
>
> --
> Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute.
> (Known to some as Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
> kyrrin (a/t) bluefeathertech[d=o=t]calm -- www.bluefeathertech.com
> "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped
> with surreal ports?"
>
>
> Path: newssvr33.news.prodigy.com!newsdbm06.news.prodigy.com!newsdst02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!news.glorb.com!indigo.octanews.net!news-out.octanews.net!teal.octanews.net!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
> From: Dr. Anton T. Squeegee <SpammersAreVermin dev.null>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.repair
> Subject: Re: Do hard drives fail from open covers?
> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 00:33:48 -0700
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>
John Doe
> John Doe <jd...@usenet.love.invalid> posted:
>>"James Sweet" <jamessweet hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> "John Doe" <jdoe usenet.love.invalid> wrote in message
>>>> et472 FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) wrote:
>>
>>>> > And ironically, you might find that the smaller the capacity
>>>> > the more the platters.
>>
>>>> That might be interesting trivia if it were true.
>>>> http://westerndigital.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=85
>>>> Click on the Configuration tab for each of the sizes and look
>>>> at a number of platters.
>>>> If you can find data for a series which supports your
>>>> contention, please post the link.
>>
>>> I've opened a lot of dead drives to harvest the magnets and it's
>>> true, older drives which are often smaller as well typically
>>> have more platters than newer drives. I took apart a 4 gig SCSI
>>> drive once that had 7 platters in it and it seems like I once
>>> opened a 1 gig 5.25" SCSI drive that had 10-13 platters.
>>
>>Are you suggesting that small, old drives have more platters
>>than large, old drives?
>
> Oh, please.
Exactly. But in the reply before yours, Dr. Anton T. Squeegee
actually disputes that.
Go figure. Lots of shooting from the hip going on.
> The context was that of a guy who opened 3 new drives to
> see how much data they held. The point of the first remark quoted
> above was that you can't tell that way. It wasn't a comprehensive
> statement about all hard drives, their capacity and the number of
> platters.
>
> Didn't you and John Doe notice this? Why bicker?
Yes I did, and I agree with that. But that's not what I was replying
to and that is why I asked plainly.
Didn't you notice that the author you are replying to is John Doe?
John Doe
>> > it's true, older drives which are often smaller as well
>> > typically have more platters than newer drives. I took apart
>> > a 4 gig SCSI drive once that had 7 platters in it and it
>> > seems like I once opened a 1 gig 5.25" SCSI drive that had
>> > 10-13 platters.
>>
>> Are you suggesting that small, old drives have more platters
>> than large, old drives?
>>
>> Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
>> decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
> You're reading way too much into what I'm saying.
Nope.
> All I'm suggesting is that
> older drives typically have more platters than newer drives, and
> it's because of much lower data density on the platters.
Apparently, consumer demand for greater capacity does not figure
into your equation. In fact, demand for greater capacity
increases.
> I didn't see single
> platter drives until just a few years ago,
The only one I have taken apart, over five years ago, had a single
platter.
Why do you have to see? All you have to do is look at the maker's
web site.
> before that they almost always
> had 2-4 for typical consumer sized drives.
Nowadays they have that many for typical consumer sized drives.
Just look at a maker's web site.
> The typical number of platters has been decreasing because
> platters, heads, and the associated electronics cost money, as
> soon as they can bump the data density up high enough to reduce
> the number of platters they do it, that's why 120 gig drives
> which are currently the largest single platter drives available
> are also generally the lowest price per gig.
You are ignoring other factors.
... consumers want greater capacity, multiple platters increases
capacity
... the electronics is always much faster than the hardware, so
multiple platters means faster data transfer
>
>
>
>
> Path: newssvr33.news.prodigy.com!newsdbm06.news.prodigy.com!newsdst02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trnddc07.POSTED!aea5c7cf!not-for-mail
> From: "James Sweet" <jamessweet hotmail.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.repair
> References: <v%%Ie.3032$fJ1.1367 newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <GbqdnQwjrYO5DGnfRVn-hQ rogers.com> <YrcJe.1561$Z87.455 newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <dd3mg5$b51$1 theodyn.ncf.ca> <Xns96AACE6B49264wisdomfolly 207.115.63.158> <SaeJe.2693$z%.131 trnddc02> <Xns96AADBF0BCB12wisdomfolly 207.115.63.158>
> Subject: Re: Do hard drives fail from open covers?
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>
John Doe
JazzMan <No_Spam airmail.net> wrote:
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> From: JazzMan <No_Spam airmail.net>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.repair
> Subject: Re: Do hard drives fail from open covers?
> Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 23:51:13 -0500
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John Doe
> John Doe <jd...@usenet.love.invalid> wrote:
>> ...
>>> The BIOS settings for platter/head counts now are pretty
>>> much not reflective of actual hardware inside the case.
>> Never have been.
>
> They have been, mostly before the IDE interface was introduced.
> Some early IDE drives reported the true number of heads/sectors
> as well.
Thanks.
Here is some further reading, for what it's worth.
http://cma.zdnet.com/book/upgraderepair/ch15/ch15.htm#Heading4
"These [pre/early-IDE] drives also did not support sector
translation, in which the physical parameters could be altered to
appear as any set of logical cylinders, heads, and sectors."
Jim Adney
>Three of my 60-80 Gig Maxtor hard drives failed. First it will not look
>for datas. Later it will not format. Then finally it will click forever and
>won't boot. All three have the same thing in common, there covers
>were opened for a second in a clean, dust free room out of curiosity.
>Do hard drives fail from a quick cover removal?
Finding a room that is truly dust free is a BIG challenge. If you had
a true clean room, then you may have been clean, but most hard drives
which have been in use for any amount of time will have accumulated a
significant amount of dust on them. Just the process of opening such a
drive in a clean room would have contaminated the room.
One can occasionally get away with opening a drive. I've done it, and
I know others who have, but I would only do it with a drive which was
already considered scrap or worthless, or, as a last resort, to try to
get the platters spinning to copy the data off a hard drive that
wouldn't start without help.
Anything else is just another form of Russian Roulette, with one empty
chamber.
-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jad...@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------
James Sweet
"John Doe" <jd...@usenet.love.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns96ABD3AB2...@207.115.63.158...
> >> > I've opened a lot of dead drives to harvest the magnets and
> >> > it's true, older drives which are often smaller as well
> >> > typically have more platters than newer drives. I took apart
> >> > a 4 gig SCSI drive once that had 7 platters in it and it
> >> > seems like I once opened a 1 gig 5.25" SCSI drive that had
> >> > 10-13 platters.
> >>
> >> Are you suggesting that small, old drives have more platters
> >> than large, old drives?
> >>
> >> Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
> >> decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
>
> > You're reading way too much into what I'm saying.
>
> Nope.
>
> > All I'm suggesting is that
> > older drives typically have more platters than newer drives, and
> > it's because of much lower data density on the platters.
>
> Apparently, consumer demand for greater capacity does not figure
> into your equation. In fact, demand for greater capacity
> increases.
>
> > I didn't see single
> > platter drives until just a few years ago,
>
> The only one I have taken apart, over five years ago, had a single
> platter.
>
> Why do you have to see? All you have to do is look at the maker's
> web site.
>
I don't have to see, I'm not the one who took apart working drives, I was
only chiming in that I've opened dozens of dead drives over the years to
harvest them for parts, and statistically the newer ones have fewer platters
than the older ones, I don't know why this is such a controversial statement
as it's simply what I've seen in a random sampling of drives that have
failed over the last 15 years or so.
Michael A. Terrell
>
> Apparently, consumer demand for greater capacity does not figure
> into your equation. In fact, demand for greater capacity
> increases.
Consumer demand has nothing to do with it. You can demand anything
you want but until its feasible to build at a reasonable price, it won't
exist. All any consumer can do is chose the an item somewhere in the
range of what is offered. I'd love to have a 100 million terabyte data
storage system with a 1024 bit wide buss and under a pico second access
time, but it isn't going to happen in my lifetime. I'll be lucky if I
live long enough to see really good OCR software.
<Snip a lot of nonsense.>
> ... the electronics is always much faster than the hardware, so
> multiple platters means faster data transfer.
Really? It takes time to switch between heads, verify the head
location, synchronize the servo and collect the data. It would be like
reading more books at the same time, rather than finishing one before
starting another.
More heads slows it down unless you are reading each entire platter
at once, one side at a time. I have never seen this, even in the old 5
MB hard drives that I started with. If you want more speed you use RAID
arrays where you have multiple drives synched, and switch data access
between them.
--
Link to my "Computers for disabled Veterans" project website deleted
after threats were telephoned to my church.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Mike Berger
that filters out particles bigger than a micron, and you're letting in
colossal pieces of dust.
Sam Nickaby wrote:
> Three of my 60-80 Gig Maxtor hard drives failed. First it will not look
> for datas. Later it will not format. Then finally it will click forever and
> won't boot. All three have the same thing in common, there covers
> were opened for a second in a clean, dust free room out of curiosity.
> Do hard drives fail from a quick cover removal?
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
Mike Berger
been my experience. We have a couple of terabyte raids, and
a bunch of servers, and a lot of desktops to back up. We've
always found backups to be expensive and tedious.
John Doe wrote:
> On the
> other hand, backups are cheap and easy.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
John Doe
> Please enlighten us on cheap and easy backups.
Hang out in the homebuilt PC group for a while and listen to all
of the sad stories people come and tell us about losing all of the
critical information on their hard disk drive because recovery is
going to cost USD1000. I'm not sure why they go there, but they
do. Their crying is a very good teacher.
A backup hard disk drive is dirt cheap. And it takes a few minutes
to do the backup.
> That has not been my experience.
Because you don't realize the cost of going without backups.
> We have a couple of terabyte raids, and
> a bunch of servers, and a lot of desktops to back up. We've
> always found backups to be expensive and tedious.
Sounds like something you and your boss should be discussing.
>
>
>
>
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> From: Mike Berger <berger shout.net>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.repair
> Subject: Re: Do hard drives fail from open covers?
> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:01:03 -0500
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>
JW
wrote in Message id: <ZBuJe.4027$2j.955@trnddc07>:
>
><maa...@panic.xx.tudelft.nl> wrote in message
>news:c6b58$42f60a02$82a12456$28...@news1.tudelft.nl...
>> In sci.electronics.repair Sam Nickaby <S...@none.com> wrote:
>> > Three of my 60-80 Gig Maxtor hard drives failed. First it will not look
>> > for datas. Later it will not format. Then finally it will click forever
>and
>> > won't boot. All three have the same thing in common, there covers
>> > were opened for a second in a clean, dust free room out of curiosity.
>> > Do hard drives fail from a quick cover removal?
>>
>> Yes. Besides that, the faillure rate on those Maxtor drives seems a bit
>> above average anyway.
>>
>
>Don't even get me started on that one, probably half the dead drives I've
>harvested have been Maxtor
Yup same here - the 40GB Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 8. We've had literally
hundreds of them go south within the warranty period. Failure rate
compared to drives we've sold indicates >%7 failure rate.
What a dog.
John Doe
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> Message-ID: <42F70562.950A6CAE earthlink.net>
> From: "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell earthlink.net>
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> Subject: Re: Do hard drives fail from open covers?
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>
John Doe
>> Apparently, consumer demand for greater capacity does not
>> figure into your equation. In fact, demand for greater capacity
>> increases.
<snipped babbling about terabyte hard disk drives and OCR software>
>> ... the electronics is always much faster than the hardware, so
>> multiple platters means faster data transfer.
> Really? ...
> More heads slows it down ...
http://www.wdc.com/en/products/productkit.asp?DriveID=40
http://www.wdc.com/en/products/productkit.asp?DriveID=65
Identical drives except the larger drive with two platters has
faster Read Seek Times and faster Track-To-Track Seek Times.
>
> --
> Link to my "Computers for disabled Veterans" project website
> deleted after threats were telephoned to my church.
>
> Michael A. Terrell
> Central Florida
>
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> Message-ID: <42F70562.950A6CAE earthlink.net>
> From: "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell earthlink.net>
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> Subject: Re: Do hard drives fail from open covers?
Michael A. Terrell
Nothing at all.
Plonk!
maa...@panic.xx.tudelft.nl
> Please enlighten us on cheap and easy backups. That has not
> been my experience. We have a couple of terabyte raids, and
> a bunch of servers, and a lot of desktops to back up. We've
> always found backups to be expensive and tedious.
In that case, just use a second raid for the backup. For mere mortals, a
DVD-writer is indeed a cheap way to make backups.
Rich Grise
> Three of my 60-80 Gig Maxtor hard drives failed. First it will not look
> for datas. Later it will not format. Then finally it will click forever and
> won't boot. All three have the same thing in common, there covers
> were opened for a second in a clean, dust free room out of curiosity.
> Do hard drives fail from a quick cover removal?
Yup.
--
Sorry.
Rich
Rich Grise
> "Steve Lewinsky" <coi...@rogers.com> wrote
>
>> Why would you open all 3 in the first place? Was one not enough?
>> Did you think the GIGs in the other drives looked different??
>
> The 20 Gig contains two platters. The 130 Gigs contains 3 platters. How
> could 3 platters holds so much data? Straight from its factory wrapper,
> I crack the lids open inside a large clean, clear plastic bag inside a hepa
> filtered closet which still doesn't help.
Well, you're obviously an idiot. That is, if you're talking about
opening the lid of the drive itself. If you're talking about opening
the lid of the shipping container, then I don't even know what you're
talking about.
--
Thanks!
Rich
Rich Grise
> et...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) wrote:
>
> ...
>> And ironically, you might find that the smaller the capacity the
> more the platters.
>
> That might be interesting trivia if it were true.
>
> http://westerndigital.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=85
>
> Click on the Configuration tab for each of the sizes and look at a
> number of platters.
>
> If you can find data for a series which supports your contention,
> please post the link.
You mean you've never seen a Control Data Fixed Module Drive?
Two Spindles, each supporting a pack of ten, 14" aluminum disks,
total capacity, 300 MegaBytes per pack.
Cheers!
Rich
Rich Grise
> Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
> decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
Then your brain is broken. If you can provide storage to your
customers at, say, $.10 per megabyte, doesn't it stand to reason
that if you could provide those megabytes on _one_ platter, that
the machinery would be cheaper than using _two_ platters for
the same data per drive?
Thanks,
Rich
Rich Grise
> Does anyone have that diagram DEC used to include with
> disk drive user/service info? You know the one - it
> shows the heads flying over the surface of the disk
> next to a particle of dust and cigarette smoke, which
> looked like boulders in comparison.
Unfortunately, I neglected to collect one of those diagrams
when I worked at CDC MPI. But, yeah, the heads flew at
50 microinches - they tested their flying height by looking
at the interference fringes with a monochromatic lamp and
glass disk.
And they had, "flying height, smoke particle, dust particle,
human hair" and, yes, a human hair is about 3000 microinches.
> And that was in the days where the flying height was
> 10 or 100 times greater than it is today!
Well, Ida know. It was 0.000050 back then - what are they
flying them at these days? I thought that was the thickness
of the boundary layer!
Thanks,
Rich
Rich Grise
> On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 23:52:25 GMT, "Anna Daptor"
> <An...@radio.active.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>The image included on this page by any chance?
>>http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/op/heads/opHeight.html
>
> See item #38 at:
> http://www.LearnByDestroying.com/nooze/support.txt
> The hard drives have gotten swifter since 1993. I'm not so sure about
> the users.
My favorite tech support call wasn't computerz, but it waz electronicz. ;-)
I was a video game repair tech. (also jukeboxes, pinball machines, pool
tables, Foosball tables, Wak-A-Mole machines, etc, etc, etc...) And I did
phone support when a guy has a game in his own shop, but doesn't have a
tech.
[C == customer, M == me]
C: Uh, hi. The machine don't power up.
M: OK. Is it plugged in?
C: Yup.
M: Did you check the fuse?
C: Yup.
M: Do you have volts at the fuse?
C: Uh, no.
M: Do you have volts at the power switch?
C: Uh, lemme go check that...
[background - sound of game powering up and self-testing]
C: Guh-Hyuk! Uh fiyuxed it! An' Uh ain't even a-gonna tell ya
whut uh diyud!
--
Cheers!
Rich
Rich The Newsgroup Wacko
> Do bears shit in the woods
Of course, but do they really wipe their ass with squirrels?
--
Cheers!
Rich
------
"An angst-ridden amorist, Fred,
Saw sartorial changes ahead.
His mind kept on ringing
With fishy girls singing;
Soft fruit also filled him with dread."
-- J. Walker, "The Love Song Of J. Alfred Prufrock"
Rich The Newsgroup Wacko
> Anything else is just another form of Russian Roulette, with one empty
> chamber.
Dewd! Did you see that movie too?
"Five!"
"oeryhtuopve?"
"Five!!!!!"
"oiutnubnio!!!!"
"*POW* *POW* *POW* *POW* *POW*"
--
Cheers!
Rich
Travis Jordan
> You mean you've never seen a Control Data Fixed Module Drive?
> Two Spindles, each supporting a pack of ten, 14" aluminum disks,
> total capacity, 300 MegaBytes per pack.
I don't recall the cost of the packs, but the drives were about $45K in
1987 dollars.
jf...@my-deja.com
> Well, Ida know. It was 0.000050 back then - what are they
> flying them at these days? I thought that was the thickness
> of the boundary layer!
The nominal mechanical spacing in advanced, experimental heads is less
than 10 nanometers, or less than 0.4 microinches. I don't know the
exact values, but current commercial products use spacings smaller than
1 microinch. At those dimensions and the typical linear velocities of
30 m/s (about 60 mph), the air no longer acts as a Newtonian fluid.
They claim that the head and disk surfaces are smooth enough that the
10nm value is a meaninful number, and measurements are often presented
with 1 angstrom resolution..
Jim Adney
Uhhh, no. I was just trying to make up something to illustrate a
point.
What movie?
Rich Grise
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 03:27:19 GMT Rich The Newsgroup Wacko
> <wa...@example.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 21:34:47 -0500, Jim Adney wrote:
>>
>>> Anything else is just another form of Russian Roulette, with one empty
>>> chamber.
>>
>>Dewd! Did you see that movie too?
>>
>>"Five!"
>>"oeryhtuopve?"
>>"Five!!!!!"
>>"oiutnubnio!!!!"
>>"*POW* *POW* *POW* *POW* *POW*"
>
> Uhhh, no. I was just trying to make up something to illustrate a
> point.
>
> What movie?
"The Deer Hunter". Very very weird movie about the craziness in
Veitnam at the time. Christopher Walken had gone AWOL, and was
working in some town playing Russain Roulette for the entertainment
of the Vietnamese folks. They'd place bets on whether he was going
to blow his brains out.
Well, it was getting frenetic - he was doing like two chambered
rounds, and the odds went way up. Then he did three, and the odds
skyrocketed. Then, in all of the excitement, he goes, "Five! How
about five!" And the locals say something incomprehensible, but
they're obviously all excited - he puts five bullets in the gun,
and realizes that there are five "captors", so: *POW* *POW* *POW*
*POW* *POW* he dusts the five guys and escapes.
Cheers!
Rich
kinyo
call them washing machines, can't remember the oem but they are called
Zebra. They are fun to work with at the same time p.i.t.a., but they
taught me all I need to know about hard disks. Being unsealed type, it
was possible to replace individual heads and that's where the fun
begins!
Tom MacIntyre
wrote:
So interesting that POW also stands for... :-)
Tom
>
>Cheers!
>Rich
Sam Goldwasser
Yeah, after intalling the $1200 alignment pack after replacing a head
and screeeeeeeeechsssssss&&t. :)
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Jim Adney
wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:54:57 -0500, Jim Adney wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 03:27:19 GMT Rich The Newsgroup Wacko
>> <wa...@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 21:34:47 -0500, Jim Adney wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anything else is just another form of Russian Roulette, with one empty
>>>> chamber.
>>>
>>>Dewd! Did you see that movie too?
>>>
>>>"Five!"
>>>"oeryhtuopve?"
>>>"Five!!!!!"
>>>"oiutnubnio!!!!"
>>>"*POW* *POW* *POW* *POW* *POW*"
>>
>> Uhhh, no. I was just trying to make up something to illustrate a
>> point.
>>
>> What movie?
>
>"The Deer Hunter". Very very weird movie about the craziness in
>Veitnam at the time.
Oh, THAT movie. That's one I've always meant to rent and just never
did. Now you've gone and ruined it for me. Drat! ;-)
Blarg
DeNiro et al were
prisoners and forced to play at gunpoint under threat of a hideous torture
death.
DeNiro kept upping the number of bullets until he had enough to shoot the
Vietnamese and escape with his buddies.
Walken somehow stays in Vietnam and MUCH later is found playing Russian
roulette for big money in
a Vietnamese city.
"Tom MacIntyre" <tom__ma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fn1qf1pan5ooq1mh2...@4ax.com...
John Doe
> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 02:37:07 +0000, John Doe wrote:
>
>> Are you suggesting that the typical number of platters is
>> decreasing? I cannot imagine why.
>
> Then your brain is broken.
Troll
> If you can provide storage to your
> customers at, say, $.10 per megabyte, doesn't it stand to reason
> that if you could provide those megabytes on _one_ platter, that
> the machinery would be cheaper than using _two_ platters for
> the same data per drive?
Yes, if the consumer wants half the size.
>
> Thanks,
> Rich
>
>
>
> From: Rich Grise <eatmyshorts doubleclick.net>
> Organization: Yah, Right!
> Subject: Re: Do hard drives fail from open covers?
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John Doe
Rich Grise <richgrise example.net> wrote:
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> From: Rich Grise <richgrise example.net>
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> Subject: Re: Do hard drives fail from open covers?
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> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 00:19:04 +0000, Sam Nickaby wrote:
>
>> "Steve Lewinsky" <coinop rogers.com> wrote