English Words
Phillip David Weaver
Are there any English words in the English language? Phillip.
Carl KICE Brown
Phillip David Weaver wrote:
>
> Are there any English words in the English language? Phillip.
What's your operational definition of English? I would expect
there might be some that are Anglian in origin though it might be
difficult to exclude Saxon elements.
--
"No victory is ever complete, nor ever
enough to last the whole year. Neither
Apollo nor Dionysus can reign forever,
neither can do without the other,
neither can be there all the time.
When Apollo reappears and squeezes
Dionysus's arm, we hear the last notes
of the dithyrambs, and immediately
afterwards the first of the paeans.
The only continuity is sound."
------ Roberto Callaso
in "The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony"
Kice Brown
Lone Tree & Iowa City
Ian Stewart
In article <5nn2ps$8km$1...@news8.gte.net>, Phillip David Weaver
<phil...@gte.net> writes
>Are there any English words in the English language? Phillip.
I presume you mean anglo-saxon (english being a relatively modern term).
The English language has an extremely wide vocabulary because it is the
conjunction of two languages - the romance and the 'teutonic'. Whilst
the majority of words in the OED are romance, the majority of words most
commonly used are anglo-saxon (i.e. coming from the 'teutonic' old
english).
For an interesting view on the subject read the poetry and journals of
Gerard Manley Hopkins who felt that Anglo-Saxon words were more
expressive, capable of expressing 'inscape'. This was under the
influence of various victorian philogists, most notably an interesting
chap called William Barnes (also a poet although I haven't managed to
find a copy of these as yet.)
--
Ian Stewart
Richard M. Alderson III
Indeed there are; here are eight of 'em.
--
Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary
of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo-
logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they
know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning
as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or
what not.
--J. R. R. Tolkien,
alde...@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_
Phillip David Weaver
I hold the theory, if I may circumvent your question, that English ought
now to be considered a Romantic language, because of the overwhelming
influence of Latin that is exhibited in it. Not only can I attribute to
Latin many of those Germanic elements that are said to exist in English,
but I can also attribute to Latin many of those celebrated Greek
elements.
But my question was really rhetorical. Who but an expert could point out
even one truly Anglian word in English? In other words, English has
become a universal language, and we can expect it to continue to evolve.
Thus perhaps it would be better now to consider how similar of Latin
English has become, rather than to concentrate on its strictly Britannic
origins.
Phillip.
Patricia Wright
Phillip Weaver asks:
> Are there any English words in the English language?
So here's my tuppence worth.
As a previous poster has already mentioned, the response to this question
depends on your definition of English. If I restate your question as :
Are there any "British" (i.e. celtic)-origin words in the English language? (As
opposed to germanic, romance or any other origin.)
Then I think the answer is yes but not many!I've quickly skimmed my dictionary
and come up with a few:
crag
(p)tarmigan - game bird of the scottish highlands
cairn
banshee
coracle
whisky
(I'm not a linguist/etymologist so am not 100% sure about these and am happy to
be corrected)
The words I've looked for are coloured by being a native Scot. I'm sure Welsh,
Irish and Cornish natives can come up with a few more. I've only allowed words
commonly known/used throughout the British Isles. That excludes dialect words
(although these are stricitly "English" if in the OED!).
Trish
Phillip David Weaver
philologist (____________).
[f. philology (? or Gr. __________) + -ist.]
A person versed in or devoted to philology.
1. One devoted to learning or literature; a lover of letters or
scholarship; a learned or literary man; a scholar, esp. a classical
scholar. Now less usual (cf. philology 1).
1648 E. Sparke in Shute=92s Sarah & Hagar Pref. b j, For his Method, let
no nice Philologist distaste it, as too Calvinistical.
a1682 Sir T. Browne Tracts, Plants Script. =A725 Why the Rods and Staffs
of the Princes were chosen for this decision Philologists will consider.
1799 Mrs. J. West Tale of Times III. 388 Philologists dispute the
revealed will of God.
1841 Spalding Italy & It. Isl. I. 125 This labour..is least irksome to
the professed philologist, who, in the purity of the style and the bold
structure of the versification, can forget the weary barrenness of the
matter.
Phillip David Weaver
Right you are, of course. Phillip.
Phillip David Weaver
My posts, for the first time in several years, have begun to vanish,
either before or soon after they have been posted. So, I have configured
my reader to make a copy of all my outgoing Newsgroup messages. I will
now attempt to reconstruct one of those lost messages.
I hold the opinion that English ought now to be considered a Romantic
language, because of the overwhelming influence of Latin that is
exhibited in it. Not only can I attribute to Latin many of those
Germanic elements that are said to exist in English, but I can also
attribute to Latin many of those celebrated Greek elements. In other
words, English has become a universal language, and we can expect it to
continue to evolve. Perhaps it would be better now to consider how
similar of Latin English has become, than to concentrate on its strictly
Britannic origins.
Phillip.
Ian Stewart
In article <5nrpa4$cs7$3...@news13.gte.net>, Phillip David Weaver
>I hold the opinion that English ought now to be considered a Romantic
>language, because of the overwhelming influence of Latin that is
>exhibited in it. Not only can I attribute to Latin many of those
>Germanic elements that are said to exist in English, but I can also
>attribute to Latin many of those celebrated Greek elements.
I think you are on very dodgy ground here. You seem to be suggesting
that the teutonic branch of the indo-european language was based on
Latin. The implication of this would be that, prior to Latin, there was
no language existing in Northern Europe. If you have evidence to suggest
that the teutonic language was evolved from latin I would love to hear
it.
The origins of old english are not certain but it is generally accepted
that its roots are teutonic (the last time I read any thing about it,
Frisian seemed to be most likely but this might be outdated). Most
evidence suggests that the latinisation of the engish language did not
take place until the Norman invasions, the Roman occupation of Britain
having little effect on old english.
Such a late latinisation of the language has been extremely felicitous.
Modern english has, for most words, synonyms of both latin and anglo-
saxon origins, resulting in a comparitively wide vocabulary. However, as
I said in a previous post, of the words most commonly used, the vast
majority are of Anglo-saxon origin. To simply decide to call it a
'Romance' language is absurd.
I would also wonder why you should wish to do so. What advantage would
be gained? Surely you are not suggesting that to insist on English's
dual origins is chauvinistic?
>In other
>words, English has become a universal language, and we can expect it to
>continue to evolve. Perhaps it would be better now to consider how
>similar of Latin English has become, than to concentrate on its strictly
>Britannic origins.
>
>Phillip.
--
Ian Stewart
HANSTEIS
I'd object to English being called a Romance language for two reasons: the
grammar is still mainly Germanic, and the Romance borrowings are not the
basic words like prepositions, articles, numbers, kinship terms, etc. I'm
curious about how you derive these from Latin or Greek--there is a clear
line of descent from Old English for them.
HANS...@AOL.com (John Stanley)
live longer . . . learn more
Phillip David Weaver
The grammar indeed is mainly Germanic, if you do not know Latin grammar,
and the borrowings are primarily prepositions, if you have a vocabulary
of three words. Do not be curious about how I derive these from Latin.
Turn around and be curious about how you became so confused.
HANSTEIS
Actually, I've taken Latin and French and don't see how I'm "so confused."
For example, English, in common with other Germanic languages, has lost
the true future tense, so that it must use auxiliaries to form it.
The point about the prepositions etc. (incidentally, I have a large
vocabulary in several languages) is that these words are what we use to
form our sentences, while the kinship terms express our most intimate
relationships.
Phillip David Weaver
The subject is Latin. Your vocabulary is minimal. Your confusion is
visible in the fact that you ignore my words. That's it for you, man. I
did not take you to raise you.
Matthew Montchalin
Phew! For a second I was worried you were gonna tell me to study Greek...
Or, worse yet, use only one space between sentences. Not like that would
ever happen, though.
--
----------------------------------------------
PRIMUM cave hominem qui largitiones petit,
SECUNDUM diffide hominem qui quasdam impetrit!
Richard M. Alderson III
In article <5nqcv9$6cc$1...@news.gte.net> Phillip David Weaver <phil...@gte.net>
writes:
>I hold the theory, if I may circumvent your question, that English ought now
>to be considered a Romantic language, because of the overwhelming influence of
>Latin that is exhibited in it.
In what sense is English to be considered a Romance langauge? Does it inflect
its verbs in the manner of a Romance language? Its nouns or pronouns?
Is its base vocabulary, as much as I hate using this particular measure, of
Romance or of Germanic etymology?
>Not only can I attribute to Latin many of those Germanic elements that are
>said to exist in English, but I can also attribute to Latin many of those
>celebrated Greek elements.
How, pray tell, do you "attribute to Latin many of those Germanic elements"?
What does that mean? That you don't believe that English was ever a Germanic
language? In spite of the overwhelming evidence?
>But my question was really rhetorical. Who but an expert could point out even
>one truly Anglian word in English?
Most moderately educated adult native speakers?
>In other words, English has become a universal language, and we can expect it
>to continue to evolve.
As all languages "continue to evolve" so long as they are spoken, this would be
true of English even were it only the language of a single village in upstate
New York or Dorsetshire.
>Thus perhaps it would be better now to consider how similar of Latin English
>has become, rather than to concentrate on its strictly Britannic origins.
"Britannic origins"? What does that mean? English originated in the northwest
of the Continent, not in the British Isles.
Let me recommend some light reading:
Charles Barber, _The English Language: A Historical Introduction_ (Cambridge
University Press, 1993, ISBN 0-521-42622-7).
Theodora Bynon, _Historical Linguistics_ (Cambridge University Press, 1977,
ISBN 0-521-29188-7).
Both are readily available.
Then come back and tell us what you have learned.
Ye Olde Grislie
alde...@netcom16.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) wrote:
[...]
>English [would continue to evolve] even were it only the language
>of a single village in upstate New York or Dorsetshire.
Having seen many a village in upstate New York, I am not entirely
sure this is true. Can't say about Dorsetshire.
----
Rodger Whitlock
Phillip David Weaver
None of your questions receives an answer. Do not dream of recommending
reading for me. Phillip.
Tony Jebson
Patricia Wright wrote:
[response to a "Are there any English words in the English language"]
> Are there any "British" (i.e. celtic)-origin words in the
> English language? (As opposed to germanic, romance or any
> other origin.)
>
Ignoring place-names, there were about 12 secure Celtic loans into
Old English. Most are from Brythonic (P) Celtic:
binn "bin"
bannoc "bit"
dunn "dun, grey"
broc "badger"
bratt "cloak"
carr "rock"
luh "lake"
torr "rock"
cumb "deep valley"
There are probably a much more recent borrowings...
See my web page for more details on loan words in OE:
http://lonestar.texas.net/~jebbo/learn-as/origins.htm
--- Tony Jebson
bdc
The following is adapted from Samuel Clements:
---
WITH all the talk about a single European currency, some people are
talking about a common European language, with English being touted
as the preferred language for communications, ahead of German. But
the British will be asked to concede a simplified spelling to be
phased in over a five-year period.
In the first year, 'S' would be used instead of the soft 'C'.
Sertainly, sivil servants will resieve this news with joy. Also, the
hard 'C' will be replaced with 'k'. Not only will this klear up
konfusion, but typewriters kan have one less letter on the keyboard,
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the
troublesome 'ph' will be replaced by f. This will make words like
'fotograf' 20 per sent shorter.
In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be
expekted to reach the stage where more komplikatad changes are
possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters,
which have always ben adeterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre
that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is disgrasful, so
they would hav to go.
By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing
'th' by 'z' and 'w' by 'v'. During ze fifz year, ze unesesary 'o' kan
be dropd from vords kontaining 'ou', and similar changes vud of kors
be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.
After zis fifz year, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil
be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu
understand ech ozer. Ze drem vil finali kum tru.
---
Just like Latin.
Phillip David Weaver
Very amusing. I have forwarded your message to everyone who is in my
address book. Phillip.