Binocular Observations

[Sketcher]

October 1st (U.T.) proved to be a nice evening to observe with hand-
held 20x80 binoculars. Besides the usual course of Messier and
'showpiece' objects I took advantage of the dark (NELM 6.5),
transparent sky to capture our most distant planets, Uranus and
Neptune. The blue-green color of Uranus was apparent, but Neptune's
bluish tint was not as easy to make out with my aging eyes. Uranus
was 'just' visible to the unaided eye. Asteroid Vesta was observed as
was our nearest dwarf planet, Ceres. I took a quick look at Comet C/
2009 P1 (Garradd). The Pleiades were nice early in the evening, but a
second look after the famous cluster had risen a bit higher in the sky
allowed the Merope Nebula to be distinctly seen. A few nice meteors
added some punctuation to the evening.

Naturally, it helped to do some advance planning. I had looked up the
coordinates of Uranus, Neptune, Vesta, Ceres, and Comet Garradd prior
to going outside. The two Uranometria volumes along with the S&T
Pocket Atlas proved useful as well. I should have taken out the
Millennium Atlas instead of the Uranometria . . . but all went
reasonably well anyway.

Interestingly, Uranus was located quite close to one of our equinoxes
-- where the ecliptic and celestial equator intersect. The planet's
RA and declination were both fairly close to zero!

After posting this I'll most likely allow my eyes to dark adapt once
again and take a look at a few more binocular objects. I might even
be able to stay awake long enough or wake up in time to see Mars rise
in the Beehive Cluster!

Sketcher
To sketch is to see.

[oriel36]

On Oct 1, 9:26 am, Sketcher <astrosketc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Interestingly, Uranus was located quite close to one of our equinoxes
> -- where the ecliptic and celestial equator intersect.  The planet's
> RA and declination were both fairly close to zero!
>

Grow up for goodness sake !,you are following an arrangement that
overlays the orbital path of the Earth on to a celestial sphere which
is supposed to reflect the daily rotation of the Earth,if you had a
sense of what you were looking at you would feel childish but you
don't have that sense of what a Equinox is and why you don't project
the daily rotation of the Earth to stellar circumpolar motion and
right ascension.

Is there one sane person who can forget a rotating celestial sphere
and the motion of objects against that calendar based convenience for
a few days in order to work with the relationship between daily and
orbital motions because what exists is not geocentric but something
far worse,it is called homocentricity and you are engaging in it.

What is it with readers that they would willingly turn away from
principles which make astronomy enjoyable,even for those addicted to
the timekeeping averages found in right ascension ?."The celestial
equator and the ecliptic intersect",my goodness,I can't imagine what
my astronomical ancestors would have thought of this current situation
because it is as though geometry was not the language of astronomy as
empiricists following the lead of Flamsteed try to bypass the
references which link daily rotation to the orbital motion of the
Earth in order to impose a calendar based format using stellar
circumpolar motion.

You don't know you are doing wrong,you just don't seem to have a sense
that stellar circumpolar motion and orbital motion do not mix and
especially not using astronomical events like the Equinox.If you have
any doubt then look at the time lapse footage of Jupiter and Saturn
moving against the background constellations minus any inputs of
stellar circumpolar motion -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

I don't think you hate astronomy but what you do may even be worse by
turning it into a mediocre exercise

[Martin R. Howell]

C'mon. Admit it. You are touching yourself as you write this stuff.

[Sketcher]

On Oct 1, 1:42 am, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Grow up for goodness sake !,you are following an arrangement that
> overlays the orbital path of the Earth on to a celestial sphere which
> is supposed to reflect the daily rotation of the Earth,if you had a

> sense of what you were looking at you would feel childish (snip...)

Indeed! Feel childish I do. Good to observe through a child's eyes
it is. Most useful for pinpointing celestial positions overlays are.
Lost in space without them astronomers would be.

> Is there one sane person who can forget a rotating celestial sphere
> and the motion of objects against that calendar based convenience for
> a few days  in order to work with the relationship between daily and
> orbital motions because what exists is not geocentric but something
> far worse,it is called homocentricity and you are engaging in it.

Most homocentric indeed homosapiens be. Our nature it is. Your
nature what be?

> What is it with readers that they would willingly turn away from
> principles which make astronomy enjoyable,even for those addicted to
> the timekeeping averages found in right ascension ?."The celestial
> equator and the ecliptic intersect",my goodness,I can't imagine what

> my astronomical ancestors would have thought of this current situation (snip...)

Not many star charts have you seen -- guessing I am.

> You don't know you are doing wrong,you just don't seem to have a sense
> that stellar circumpolar motion and orbital motion do not mix and
> especially not using astronomical events like the Equinox.

What I know you presume also to know?

> I don't think you hate astronomy but what you do may even be worse by
> turning it into a mediocre exercise

Look at the sky I do. Computer is not for me all that be. Life
outside the computer, for you exist it does?

Sketcher
To sketch to see it is.

[palsing]

On Oct 1, 3:33 am, "Martin R. Howell"

HA! Best reply of the year...

[oriel36]

On Oct 1, 9:14 pm, Sketcher <astrosketc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 1, 1:42 am, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Grow up for goodness sake !,you are following an arrangement that
> > overlays the orbital path of the Earth on to a celestial sphere which
> > is supposed to reflect the daily rotation of the Earth,if you had a
> > sense of what you were looking at you would feel childish (snip...)
>
> Indeed!  Feel childish I do.  Good to observe through a child's eyes
> it is.  Most useful for pinpointing celestial positions overlays are.
> Lost in space without them astronomers would be.
>

Childlike is the ability to constantly experience new things,childish
is quite different and no astronomer can be childish as that condition
speaks for itself.You don't have a sense that right ascension and
orbital motion don't mix nor what damage is done by the misuse of this
convenience.

When you wake up in the morning that will be an effect of a rotating
Earth and that will happen 1461 times reflecting 4 orbital
circuits,when you reach that level of understanding where there are a
definitive 365 1/4 rotations for each orbital circuit of the
Earth,then and only then can you consider yourself an astronomer and
readers have yet to show that they are,doctorates or no doctorates.

Astronomy does not rely on expensive equipment,the human mind in
itself and the ability to reason is the only thing and the greatest
asset to derive that intense satisfaction only astronomy can give as
it meshes the terrestrial and celestial arenas in terms of cause and
effect and expands the human capability of spacial awareness.The
business of an astronomer is not just to know but to feel and I have
seen precious little of it here in this forum.

Now,the trajectory of reasoning which Copernicus used,without clocks
and without telescopes,is that apparent retrogrades are an illusion as
the planets move against the background stars leaving daily rotation
to explain the return of the Sun each 24 hours whereas those addicted
to right ascension project daily rotation to stellar circumpolar
motion leaving orbital motion nowhere.It is as though childish people
got hold of clocks and misused them in such a way that no adult would
and the consequences and truly shocking,in no other sphere of human
existence where men must make decisions for human progress is this
allowed to happen for while I do consider that the indoctrinated mind
can't adjust there would have to be some people who feel,and I mean
feel, uncomfortable with the loss of the most basic known facts such
as why the temperatures go up and down daily due to daily rotation and
the proportion of rotations per circuit.

There are enough 'star wars' pseudo-geniuses around but the really
creative cannot bear falsehood and fiction,theirs or anyone else's.

[Sketcher]

On Oct 2, 1:17 am, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>You don't have a sense that right ascension and
> orbital motion don't mix nor what damage is done by the misuse of this
> convenience.

Gerald, my old friend, words can be twisted in so many ways to mean so
many things. Nevertheless, I believe it *is* possible to 'mix' right
ascension and orbital motion. For example, one can state that the
235.9 second daily off-set of the right ascension of the observer's
meridian is an effect of Earth's orbital motion.

> When you wake up in the morning that will be an effect of a rotating
> Earth and that will happen 1461 times reflecting 4 orbital
> circuits,when you reach that level of understanding where there are a
> definitive 365 1/4 rotations for each orbital circuit of the
> Earth,then and only then can you consider yourself an astronomer and
> readers have yet to show that they are,doctorates or no doctorates.

Of course, for Earth, there are 1461 rotations for every 4 orbital
circuits.

> Astronomy does not rely on expensive equipment,the human mind in
> itself and the ability to reason is the only thing and the greatest
> asset to derive that intense satisfaction only astronomy can give as
> it meshes the terrestrial and celestial arenas in terms of cause and
> effect and expands the human capability of spacial awareness.The
> business of an astronomer is not just to know but to feel and I have
> seen precious little of it here in this forum.

Yes, the human mind may be looked upon as the greatest of human
assets. I doubt that many would develop an interest in astronomy were
it not for feelings -- the feeling that we are not alone, the feeling
of pleasure in successfully completing (or even in knowing that one
has done the best they can in attempting to complete) a challenging
task, the feeling of wonder when contemplating (or observing) our
universe and its many motions and components, the pleasure one feels
upon understanding that which was previously a mystery . . .

> Now,the trajectory of reasoning which Copernicus used,without clocks
> and without telescopes,is that apparent retrogrades are an illusion as
> the planets move against the background stars leaving daily rotation
> to explain the return of the Sun each 24 hours whereas those addicted
> to right ascension project daily rotation to stellar  circumpolar
> motion leaving orbital motion nowhere.It is as though childish people
> got hold of clocks and misused them in such a way that no adult would
> and the consequences and truly shocking,in no other sphere of human
> existence where men must make decisions for human progress is this
> allowed to happen for while I do consider that the indoctrinated mind
> can't adjust there would have to be some people who feel,and I mean
> feel, uncomfortable with the loss of the most basic known facts such
> as why the temperatures go up and down daily due to daily rotation and
> the proportion of rotations per circuit.

There are many ways in which one may view reality. Each way is
correct in its own way. Each method can shed light where there was
once darkness. But to truly leap forward one must be flexible enough
to accept the multitude of views and take that which is useful from
each and combine them into a greater whole. Even so, there's room for
others to come forward later and ponder the same points of view --
take different 'useful' morsels and arrive at an even more distant
shore.

> There are enough 'star wars' pseudo-geniuses around but the really
> creative cannot bear falsehood and fiction,theirs or anyone else's.

My apologies for the 'star wars' thing. It served its purpose and is
now no more ;-)

Fare well in your journeys Gerald.

[oriel36]

On Oct 2, 6:26 pm, Sketcher <astrosketc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 1:17 am, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >You don't have a sense that right ascension and
> > orbital motion don't mix nor what damage is done by the misuse of this
> > convenience.
>
> Gerald, my old friend, words can be twisted in so many ways to mean so
> many things.  Nevertheless, I believe it *is* possible to 'mix' right
> ascension and orbital motion.  For example, one can state that the
> 235.9 second daily off-set of the right ascension of the observer's
> meridian is an effect of Earth's orbital motion.
>

You are no better or worse than the rest and it may not be entirely
your fault,when you argue for 366 1/4 rotations in 365 1/4 days you
are using right ascension which shuts out the ability to compare the
daily and orbital characteristics of the Earth,the former generating
1461 rotations for 4 orbital circuits and the latter generating the
polar daylight/darkness cycle with one cycle coincident with the
orbital period of the planet.Look for all the loopholes you will to
bridge the gap between 23 hours 56 minutes and 24 hours,the fact is
that it is formatted using the calendar system of 3 years of 365 days
and 1 year of 366 days.The fact is the the orbital motion of the Earth
drifts by 6 yours and equivalent to roughly a 1/4 rotation through Mar
1st year on year in non leap years where it is picked up by the extra
rotation of Feb 29th which re-aligns the rotations close enough to an
orbital circuit as the 1461 rotations for 4 orbital circuits reduces
to 365 1/4 to one orbital circuit.

Turn what way you will,what you call yourself is your own business but
cause and effect would determine that you are no astronomer in that
inability to extract the rotation of the Earth from daily temperature
rises and falls and come up with 1461 rotations for 1461 days -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/forecast/279?

You would prove yourself an enemy to the goodness that is in all
humanity should you be aware that a terrible error exists which is
creating havoc and preventing any meaningful connection in an area
where terrestrial sciences and the astronomical arena mesh.Somehow it
doesn't seem to register with you even as I see many have cottoned on
to this self-inflicted tragedy where the common belief of 366 1/4
rotations per circuit is accepted and rotation once in 24 hours is
denied even when the proportion of rotations to an orbital circuit
requires only the ability to count.

> > When you wake up in the morning that will be an effect of a rotating
> > Earth and that will happen 1461 times reflecting 4 orbital
> > circuits,when you reach that level of understanding where there are a
> > definitive 365 1/4 rotations for each orbital circuit of the
> > Earth,then and only then can you consider yourself an astronomer and
> > readers have yet to show that they are,doctorates or no doctorates.
>
> Of course, for Earth, there are 1461 rotations for every 4 orbital
> circuits.
>

You can't have it both ways,your ideology reasons out 1465 rotations
in 1461 days -

" The Earth spins on its axis about 366 and 1/4 times each year, but
there are only 365 and 1/4 days per year."

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970714.html

Empiricists generally look for loophole but the genuine astronomer
would simply look at what Feb 29th as a day/night cycle and 24 hours
of rotation represents in context of the proportion of rotations to an
orbital circuit.

> > Astronomy does not rely on expensive equipment,the human mind in
> > itself and the ability to reason is the only thing and the greatest
> > asset to derive that intense satisfaction only astronomy can give as
> > it meshes the terrestrial and celestial arenas in terms of cause and
> > effect and expands the human capability of spacial awareness.The
> > business of an astronomer is not just to know but to feel and I have
> > seen precious little of it here in this forum.
>
> Yes, the human mind may be looked upon as the greatest of human
> assets.  I doubt that many would develop an interest in astronomy were
> it not for feelings -- the feeling that we are not alone,

I assure you that feeling alone is fine when you have the bulk of
technical and historical astronomy behind you,the type of alone you
are considering is a waste of time,life is too short and creation
provides so much intense satisfaction that it heightens the feeling
for nature whereas your type of issue is a harmless distraction.A
Columbus doesn't imagine America,he goes out on an adventure and
discovers what was already there and we are explorers by nature so
speculative thinking may get you so far but it cannot replace actually
going out there are putting things in context.Do not project the
Earth's rotation into stellar circumpolar motion as it distracts from
what is up close and personal in the relationship between daily and
orbital dynamics.

the feeling
> of pleasure in successfully completing (or even in knowing that one
> has done the best they can in attempting to complete) a challenging
> task, the feeling of wonder when contemplating (or observing) our
> universe and its many motions and components, the pleasure one feels
> upon understanding that which was previously a mystery . . .
>

Do what you are best comfortable with however there is a level of
astronomy where you act as a hindrance if you do not accept right
ascension as a calendar based convenience and if you don't know by now
through cause and effect of daily rotation where you are going wrong
you will just have to just take my word that this is serious for if
you accept 1461 rotations in 1461 days/4 years you no longer can
support the ideology based on the return of a star to a meridian as
signifying daily rotation.In short,that observation reflects how
timekeeping averages work in terms of a steady progression of days
turning into a steady progression of years through the 365/366 day
format,if you can do that then you become an astronomer and move the
discipline forward to a stable ground.

> > Now,the trajectory of reasoning which Copernicus used,without clocks
> > and without telescopes,is that apparent retrogrades are an illusion as
> > the planets move against the background stars leaving daily rotation
> > to explain the return of the Sun each 24 hours whereas those addicted
> > to right ascension project daily rotation to stellar  circumpolar
> > motion leaving orbital motion nowhere.It is as though childish people
> > got hold of clocks and misused them in such a way that no adult would
> > and the consequences and truly shocking,in no other sphere of human
> > existence where men must make decisions for human progress is this
> > allowed to happen for while I do consider that the indoctrinated mind
> > can't adjust there would have to be some people who feel,and I mean
> > feel, uncomfortable with the loss of the most basic known facts such
> > as why the temperatures go up and down daily due to daily rotation and
> > the proportion of rotations per circuit.
>
> There are many ways in which one may view reality.

Childish and impossible to deal with,all I can do is keep my fingers
crossed that somebody sane will show up and use their common sense to
fill in gaps or exercise spacial awareness where observations can't be
made.We can actually see the Earth from space and know that across the
calendar cycle we will see the planet rotate 1461 times -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXCnxoixb-s

 Each way is
> correct in its own way.  Each method can shed light where there was
> once darkness.  But to truly leap forward one must be flexible enough
> to accept the multitude of views and take that which is useful from
> each and combine them into a greater whole.  Even so, there's room for
> others to come forward later and ponder the same points of view --
> take different 'useful' morsels and arrive at an even more distant
> shore.
>

Students are foremost in my efforts,they don't deserve be offered up
fiction as fact and that you can suffer 366 1/4 rotations for 1
orbital circuit would show you as disconnected from experience in
terms of either the cause or effects of the Earth's motions.All you
had to do was accept right ascension as a convenience instead of
trying to model the motions of the Earth on it and it is a thing that
eats away at a civilization,it is not something that stays ineffective
but corrodes the structures meant to serve as a background for
astronomy and terrestrial sciences.

> > There are enough 'star wars' pseudo-geniuses around but the really
> > creative cannot bear falsehood and fiction,theirs or anyone else's.
>
> My apologies for the 'star wars' thing.  It served its purpose and is
> now no more ;-)
>
> Fare well in your journeys Gerald.
>
> Sketcher
> To sketch is to see.

My journey is done,the astronomical pilgrim to develop spacial
awareness and in the language of geometry is a hard road yet the
distant peaks are always in view and that person can stop at any time
and survey the road traveled and the one ahead.Most here never even
started a journey but accepted a gratuitous association based on
mutual acceptance of an ideology that is at variance with all the
known planetary facts.

You were the first to affirm 1461 rotations in 1461 days but I am sure
Sam will be along to introduce an alternative number.

[palsing]

On Oct 2, 10:33 am, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You were the first to affirm 1461 rotations in 1461 days but I am sure
> Sam will be along to introduce an alternative number.

Of course, he meant to say "1461 rotations, with respect to the sun,
in 1461 days...", but apparently forgot that you would somehow find
fault with that.

\Paul A

[Sketcher]

I offer the following in an attempt to unambiguously clarify Earth's
motions. If you (Gerald) disagree with any of the following, please
quote the item(s) and explain why you disagree.

1) as viewed from a vantage point north of our solar system:

(1a) Earth is a planet that revolves about its star, the sun, in a
counter-clockwise direction.

(1b) One complete revolution about the sun takes about 31,558,149
seconds.

(2a) Earth rotates counter-clockwise on an axis that (in the short
term at least -- neglecting precession) points in a more or less fixed
direction in space.

(2b) Earth's rotational axis is titled by about 23.5 degrees with
respect to a perpendicular to Earth's orbital plane.

(3) As observation has confirmed, one complete rotation of the Earth
*relative to the sun* (one "day") has a duration of about 86,400
seconds.

(4) As observation has confirmed, one complete rotation of the Earth
*relative to the 'fixed' stars* (one "sidereal day") has a duration of
about 86,164.1 seconds.

(5) Using (1b) and (3) from above, it can be truthfully stated that
there are about 1461 rotations in 4 years.

(6) Using (1b) and (4) from above, it can be truthfully stated that
there are about 1465 rotations in 4 years.

(7) There's no need to get fixated upon (5) or (6). Either, from the
proper perspective and context, can be considered "correct".
Similarly; either, taken out of context, may be considered
"incorrect".

This posting is not about anyone being right, nor is it about anyone
being wrong. It is only about the correctness or incorrectness of any
of the above items. If you disagree with the correctness of any of
the above, state your case and I'll listen.

[oriel36]

A proportion is one quantity measured against another such as the
diameter against the circumference of a circle where one quantity can
be determined from the other.The proportion of rotations is 365 1/4
to 1 orbital circuit,1461 rotations to 4 orbital circuits and rendered
into the convenience of the calendar system of 1461 rotations in 1461
days/4 years formatted as 3 years of 365 rotations and 1 cycle of 366
rotations denoting that orbital and daily motions are separate,diverge
for 3 years and are re-aligned by accumulating the 1/4 rotation/6
hours into a leap day rotation of Feb 29th.

A lot of people made sacrifices so I could make this information
available notwithstanding the repulsive behavior I have had to endure,
not least in this thread yet what becomes on it depends on the
generosity of the reader and not to exploit the work of an astronomer
who has rendered the equatorial system into the convenience that it is
and not the weapon it became.

Unlike the many thousands of teachers and doctorates who go to their
respective duties tomorrow,I have to bear the responsibility in
circumstances few could imagine and do it with grace and optimism but
such is the gift of God.

[palsing]

On Oct 2, 12:21 pm, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A lot of people made sacrifices so I could make this information
> available notwithstanding the repulsive behavior I have had to endure,
> not least in this thread yet what becomes on it depends on the
> generosity of the reader and not to exploit the work of an astronomer
> who has rendered the equatorial system into the convenience that it is
> and not the weapon it became.
>
> Unlike the many thousands of teachers and doctorates who go to their
> respective duties tomorrow,I have to bear the responsibility in
> circumstances few could imagine and do it with grace and optimism but
> such is the gift of God.

You own a cat... right?

http://xkcd.com/231/

[oriel36]

On Oct 2, 10:50 pm, Sketcher <astrosketc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> (6) Using (1b) and (4) from above, it can be truthfully stated that
> there are about 1465 rotations in 4 years.
>

You are not arguing for 1465 rotations in 4 years,you are arguing
against cause and effect,in this case the extraction of daily rotation
from daily temperature fluctuations due to the rotation of the Earth
where 1461 rotations match 4 orbital circuits and 4 years -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/forecast/13030?

An astronomer recognizes the sum total of 1461 rotations for 4
circuits either as the raw proportion of 365 1/4 rotations per circuit
or as the calendar format which allows the orbital cycle to drift by 6
hours or 1/4 rotation which is picked up by the Feb 29th rotation
hence the format of 365 rotations for 3 years and 1 cycle of 366
rotations.

If you even mention 1465 rotations you are finished,the number of
rotations to an orbital circuit represent a proportion and I am not
looking for people to find loopholes in the reasoning,a proportion is
one of these things which is so easy to visualize that I don't even
consider people who have difficulties with it,yours included.The
proportion of rotations to an orbital circumference/cycle is close to
365 1/4 rotations to 1 orbital circuit and that you believe 366 1/4
rotations finishes you as not only an astronomer but pretty much as an
intelligent human being with the gift to reason.

[Sketcher]

On Oct 2, 9:50 pm, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You are not arguing for 1465 rotations in 4 years,you are arguing
> against cause and effect,

I can accept your cause and effect connection between 1461 rotations
in 4 years and diurnal temperture flunctions while also accepting the
connection between 1465 rotations in 4 years and the nightly return of
a star to the same meridian.

> An astronomer recognizes the sum total of 1461 rotations for 4
> circuits either as the raw proportion of 365 1/4 rotations per circuit
> or as the calendar format which allows the orbital cycle to drift by 6
> hours or 1/4 rotation which is picked up by the Feb 29th rotation
> hence the format of 365 rotations for 3 years and 1 cycle of 366
> rotations.

I recognize the same -- and more.

> If you even mention 1465 rotations you are finished,the number of
> rotations to an orbital circuit represent a proportion and I am not
> looking for people to find loopholes in the reasoning,a proportion is
> one of these things which is so easy to visualize that I don't even
> consider people who have difficulties with it,yours included.The
> proportion of rotations to an orbital circumference/cycle is close to
> 365 1/4 rotations to 1 orbital circuit and that you believe 366 1/4
> rotations finishes you as not only an astronomer but pretty much as an
> intelligent human being with the gift to reason.

The above paragraph is a radical a departure from scientific,
mathematical, open minded and logical reasoning. It is deserving of
no further comment.

[oriel36]

On Oct 3, 3:02 pm, Sketcher <astrosketc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 9:50 pm, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > You are not arguing for 1465 rotations in 4 years,you are arguing
> > against cause and effect,
>
> I can accept your cause and effect connection between 1461 rotations
> in 4 years and diurnal temperture flunctions while also accepting the
> connection between 1465 rotations in 4 years and the nightly return of
> a star to the same meridian.
>

Sir,you are not listening and there is no dictating or teaching
involved in any of this,the proportion of rotations to an orbital
circumference is in the same category as the proportion between the
diameter and circumference of a circle in that one is interchangeable
with the other - divide a circumference by 3.142 and you get the
length of the diameter,multiply the diameter by 3.142 and you get the
circumference.In like vein,the number of 365 1/4 rotations making up a
full orbital circumference is inviolate and if you are coming up with
366 1/4 rotations for 1 orbital circumference you are in a league of
the afflicted and I don't want to resort to that language as it means
the show is over for everyone and there still may be hope that
reasonable people do exist.

> > An astronomer recognizes the sum total of 1461 rotations for 4
> > circuits either as the raw proportion of 365 1/4 rotations per circuit
> > or as the calendar format which allows the orbital cycle to drift by 6
> > hours or 1/4 rotation which is picked up by the Feb 29th rotation
> > hence the format of 365 rotations for 3 years and 1 cycle of 366
> > rotations.
>
> I recognize the same -- and more.
>

Once the correct proportion of 365 1/4 rotations is ascertained the
next step is not to joining the afflicted is explaining where right
ascension is coming from but rather how to treat the daily and orbital
motions separately or in combination and especially the cause of the
polar daylight/darkness cycle and its orbital cause.If you want your
1465 rotations in 4 years then be my guest,it means you can't get into
the calendar system meshes with the raw dynamics of the Earth,how a
1/4 rotation's worth of orbital motion is omitted each non-leap year
and added at the end of 1460 rotations as the day/night cycle of Feb
29th.An astronomer does not see a weather forecast in the following
data,an astronomer sees the effect of daily rotation and how the
distance traveled by the Earth in 4 orbital circumferences amount to
the 1461 rotations ,an entirely separate motion.

> > If you even mention 1465 rotations you are finished,the number of
> > rotations to an orbital circuit represent a proportion and I am not
> > looking for people to find loopholes in the reasoning,a proportion is
> > one of these things which is so easy to visualize that I don't even
> > consider people who have difficulties with it,yours included.The
> > proportion of rotations to an orbital circumference/cycle is close to
> > 365 1/4 rotations to 1 orbital circuit and that you believe 366 1/4
> > rotations finishes you as not only an astronomer but pretty much as an
> > intelligent human being with the gift to reason.
>
> The above paragraph is a radical a departure from scientific,
> mathematical, open minded and logical reasoning.  It is deserving of
> no further comment.
>

You want your 1465 rotations for 4 orbital circuits then good luck to
you,you have the intellectual stature that doesn't require comment as
nothing comparable exists among people who value their intelligence
for while there may have been people who believed in a flat Earth
through all the extensive history of astronomy I never encountered
works,not even in remote antiquity that suggested such a belief.What
they did believe and clearly understood,without the need for clocks,
was that an extra day/night cycle was required after every 4th year to
keep the number of days in line with the annual cycles or keeping the
seasons and festivals fixed to known days and dates -

" therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days
added to their end, so one day as feast of Benevolent Gods [the
pharaoh and family] be from this day after every 4 years added to the
5 epagomenae before the New Year, whereby all men shall learn, that
what was a little defective in the order as regards the seasons and
the year, as also the opinions which are contained in the rules of the
learned on the heavenly orbits, are now corrected and improved.."
Canopus Decree

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/canopus_decree.htm

> Sketcher
> To sketch is to see.

Intelligent people cannot bear falsehood for any length of time for
the natural human condition is to adjust to a state where they feel
comfortable in mind and body.How much concern have empiricists when
they can't learn from what their bodies tell them as they wake and
sleep,feel the hear of day and the cold of night coming on and watch
and listen as all life responds to the motions of the Earth.You want
your imbalance of 1465 rotations in 1461 days and that defies what you
body tells you in that there is a balance of 1461 rotations in 1461
days.

I don't mind if you have destroyed your life for no good reason,I
really don't,that you are part of a group who would destroy the minds
of students is a different story.Not even the offer to work with
empiricists on a level which is not utterly stupid is rejected insofar
as the only interpretative effort of deriving the rotation of the
Earth in proportion to 4 orbital cycles is rejected.

[palsing]

You do understand, I'm sure, that Gerald is either very wacky and
really believes what he drools, or is very intelligent and only lives
to screw with you on a daily basis.

Of course, none of his wild theories have a leg to stand on, and his
"heroes" would laugh him off the planet. His rants are not scientific,
mathematical, open-minded or logical, and never have been so, and he
will absolutely refuse to answer even the simplest of questions with a
"yes" or "no" answer, for that would be the beginning of his total
unraveling.

\Paul A

[uncarollo]

On Oct 3, 2:37 pm, palsing <pnals...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> You do understand, I'm sure, that Gerald is either very wacky and
> really believes what he drools, or is very intelligent and only lives
> to screw with you on a daily basis.
>
> Of course, none of his wild theories have a leg to stand on, and his
> "heroes" would laugh him off the planet. His rants are not scientific,
> mathematical, open-minded or logical, and never have been so, and he
> will absolutely refuse to answer even the simplest of questions with a
> "yes" or "no" answer, for that would be the beginning of his total
> unraveling.
>

> \Paul A- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

He doesn't have any theories, he simply babbles on and on. There is no
content whatsoever in what he writes, just English language words, a
sort of word salad that gets tossed and turned every which way - same
words in different order.

He is here on Sci-Astro in order to hijack every thread, doesn't
matter what the content of the thread is. He is here every day, 365
and 1/4 days per year. As the world turns, like a stupid soap opera.

Uncarollo

[palsing]

On Oct 3, 3:02 pm, uncarollo <chris1...@aol.com> wrote:
>... He is here every day, 365

> and 1/4 days per year. As the world turns, like a stupid soap opera.
>
> Uncarollo

Or, as an alternative, 366-1/4 rotations, wrt the fixed stars...
which, of course, is same year, from a very slightly different
perspective...

"The end of day is near when small men make long shadows."
-Confucius

\Paul A

[David Staup]

"palsing" <pnal...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9402fb58-1b3b-4b1a...@d18g2000yql.googlegroups.com...

shadow? I see no shadow.
there is no there,there

[oriel36]

On Oct 4, 12:02 am, uncarollo <chris1...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 3, 2:37 pm, palsing <pnals...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > You do understand, I'm sure, that Gerald is either very wacky and
> > really believes what he drools, or is very intelligent and only lives
> > to screw with you on a daily basis.
>
> > Of course, none of his wild theories have a leg to stand on, and his
> > "heroes" would laugh him off the planet. His rants are not scientific,
> > mathematical, open-minded or logical, and never have been so, and he
> > will absolutely refuse to answer even the simplest of questions with a
> > "yes" or "no" answer, for that would be the beginning of his total
> > unraveling.
>
> > \Paul A- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>

> He is here on Sci-Astro in order to hijack every thread, doesn't
> matter what the content of the thread is. He is here every day, 365
> and 1/4 days per year. As the world turns, like a stupid soap opera.
>
> Uncarollo

At least you got the proportion correct,after all,the number of
rotations per orbital circuit is in the same category as the
proportion of diameter to circumference.

All life responds to the rotation of the Earth and so what if there is
a cult that imagines 1465 rotations on 1461 days,everyone else can
live as free people by accepting that the calendar format of 1461 days
is a rendering of 365 1/4 rotations into a format of 3 years of 365
rotations and 1 year of 366 rotations and affirmed y cause and effect
-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/forecast/87?

Freedom is a wonderful thing and especially to explore creation rather
than try to speak for it.

[Chris.B]

On Oct 4, 6:08 am, Oh-o'kelleher dribbled:
>
> Freedom is a wonderful thing .... than try to speak for it.

Freedom always has responsibilities. The freedom to post on Usenet is
not an invitation to destroy every single thread with your OCD rants.
To do so is highly immoral since it denies the freedom of others to
post and have balanced, intelligent conversations on a variety of
subjects within the core discipline.

We already know you have absolutely no morals despite your repeated
drivel about being a Christian. You understand less about the concept
of Christianity, morals and the exchange of ideas than you do about
your chronic, mental illness.

Or to put it more bluntly: Your are an attention whore. A poster slut.
An Abusenet shag-nasty. A sordid word prostitute. A verbose flasher.
An obscene pleonast.

[oriel36]

The Pi proportion does not elicit a reaction other than a little over
3 diameters stretched out in a circle constitutes an circumference and
visa versa,in like manner,there is nothing there to cause a reaction
to the proportion between the number of daily rotations of the Earth
to an orbital circumference as one defines the other,in this case 365
1/4 rotations per circuit with all the causes and effects in tandem
with 1461 rotations in 1461 days.

I had a look at cult deprogramming a while ago to gain some idea what
I am dealing with in seeing these screaming and repulsive reactions
yet I have chosen to stay the course to find people who either have
snapped out of that empirical bliss or have just discovered what
modern imaging and technology can do -

"In all the world, there is nothing quite so impenetrable as a human
mind snapped shut with bliss. No call to reason, no emotional appeal
can get through its armor of self-proclaimed joy." Cult deprogramming
commentary

To the cult member,the idea that you can see the evolution of the
Universe directly, or 'big bang' as it is called, is as real as day
turning to night,it doesn't matter that it defies the normal
continuity between past to present to future within the realm of
human experience or defies the normal investigation between past and
present as found in the strata and fossil record on the Earth's
surface reflecting geological and biological conditions and creatures
that are long since gone,there are people who really can set reasoning
aside and run with a conclusion that there is no visual boundary
between the past and present Universe as the past occupies the same
observation as the present.You literally have to arrive at unthinking
and unfeeling to imagine an ideology that serves no purpose and no end
other than the collapse of the ability to reason,it is actually that
bad.

How do you coax people to read the rotation of the Earth out of daily
temperature data and arrive at a conclusion which reflects a geometric
proportion which is so fundamental to human experience and
understanding that the constant challenge to it here only accentuates
the dismal situation which passes itself off as science but is really
a cult ideology called the 'scientific method'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/forecast/31?

It is not possible to criticize a cult follower for most of the time
the outcome is predictable yet most people don't chose to side with
what is false and fiction when fact does the job so much better,even
long time critics of me have to adapt to the impersonal data that is
felt as personal experience and the daily temperature data will tell
the reader that the temperature will rise and fall 1461 times in
response to 1461 rotations across 4 orbital circumferences.

[palsing]

On Oct 4, 11:25 am, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I had a look at cult deprogramming a while ago to gain some idea what

> I am dealing with...

It would have been better to have been cult-deprogrammed yourself,
before the men in the white coats come a-calling...

>... to find people who either have

> snapped out of that empirical bliss or have just discovered what
> modern imaging and technology can do -

Don't hold your breath waiting for just one of these people... Oh
wait, DO hold your breath...

> "In all the world, there is nothing quite so impenetrable as a human
> mind snapped shut with bliss. No call to reason, no emotional appeal
> can get through its armor of self-proclaimed joy." Cult deprogramming
> commentary

Well, reading what you post multiple times every day have shown that
this is certainly correct...

> It is not possible to criticize a cult follower for most of the time
> the outcome is predictable yet most people don't chose to side with

> what is false and fiction when fact does the job...

Exactly! That is precisely why you have no followers here...

> long time critics of me have to adapt to the impersonal data that is
> felt as personal experience and the daily temperature data will tell
> the reader that the temperature will rise and fall 1461 times in
> response to 1461 rotations across 4 orbital circumferences.

2 sticks in the ground, a clear night, and a timing device of your
choice will also result in impersonal data, which to date you have
refused to consider for even one moment.

So many Fools...
So Few Comets...

[Sketcher]

On Oct 3, 11:45 am, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In like vein,the number of 365 1/4 rotations making up a
> full orbital circumference is inviolate and if you are coming up with
> 366 1/4 rotations for 1 orbital circumference you are in a league of
> the afflicted

It's been shown that either proportion can be equally valid.

> If you want your
> 1465 rotations in 4 years then be my guest,it means you can't get into
> the calendar system meshes with the raw dynamics of the Earth,how a
> 1/4 rotation's worth of orbital motion is omitted each non-leap year
> and added at the end of 1460 rotations as the day/night cycle of Feb
> 29th.

The solar day and sidereal day are equally valid within their
respective contexts.

> " therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days
> added to their end, so one day as feast of Benevolent Gods [the
> pharaoh and family] be from this day after every 4 years added to the
> 5 epagomenae before the New Year, whereby all men shall learn, that
> what was a little defective in the order as regards the seasons and
> the year, as also the opinions which are contained in the rules of the
> learned on the heavenly orbits, are now corrected and improved.."
> Canopus Decree

Ah . . . so your close-minded unilateral view has a basis on faith in
an ancient Egyptian writing. To expect modern scientific minds to
abandon logic and reason in order to conform to your faith-based view
is irrational. For you to continually engage in this fruitless task
day after day, month after month, year after year serves no purpose
other than the feeding of your own belief that you are doing what
you've been 'called upon' to do. What reward are you hoping to gain
for your unwavering devotion (obsession)?

> I don't mind if you have destroyed your life for no good reason,I
> really don't,that you are part of a group who would destroy the minds
> of students is a different story.Not even the offer to work with
> empiricists on a level which is not utterly stupid is rejected insofar
> as the only interpretative effort of deriving the rotation of the
> Earth in proportion to 4 orbital cycles is rejected.

My acceptance of 1461 rotations in four years is viewed by you to be
unacceptable for no other reason than that I, in a different context,
also accept 1465 rotations in four years.

Our previous encounter a few years ago ended, if I recall correctly,
with you agreeing with more of my statements. On the other hand,
those statements of agreement had nothing to do with astronomy. They
were of a more philosophical nature . . .

I wonder at times if you are even permitted to look at the real night
sky. When questioned in the past concerning actual observation under
the real night sky I don't recall you ever admitting to such an
activity -- not with a telescope, not with binoculars, not even with
the unaided eye. It's as if you're locked in a cell somewhere with a
computer, able to see the diurnal changes of light and dark that take
place on the other side of the wall, but little else.

Perhaps after a few more years have passed, if we're both still
around, I'll slip in another reference to 'equinoxes' or one of your
other trigger words in order to provoke a reply to see how you've
changed. Then again . . .

[oriel36]

On Oct 5, 4:34 am, Sketcher <astrosketc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 3, 11:45 am, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In like vein,the number of 365 1/4 rotations making up a
> > full orbital circumference is inviolate and if you are coming up with
> > 366 1/4 rotations for 1 orbital circumference you are in a league of
> > the afflicted
>
> It's been shown that either proportion can be equally valid.
>

The proportion between diameter and circumference is inviolate,there
is no alternative value possible and neither does the orbital
circumference of the Earth permit any other proportion than close
enough to 365 1/4 rotations for each orbital circumference,the
facility of the calendar system reflects this proportion into a format
of daily rotations which mesh at close enough to 1461 rotations in
1461 days which again reflects 4 orbital cycles/circumferences,that
format shifts the 365 1/4 rotations into batches of 3 years of 365
rotations and 1 year of 366 rotations.

You are not so much giving yourself a choice of two proportions as
employing a cult defense for the basis for affirmation is not right
and wrong but cause and effect,in this case something which can be
found in any daily temperature index -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/forecast/48?

Now amounting to many scores of daily temperature data from all
locations all over the rotating planet,they all tell the same story to
an unthinking audience - that the Earth turns once in 24 hours and
1461 times in 1461 days,the geometry I have demonstrated above.You
want to explain stellar circumpolar motion by cause and effect and you
can't find anything,the only thing that matters is the relationship
between daily and orbital geometries and the central Sun.

> >  If you want your
> > 1465 rotations in 4 years then be my guest,it means you can't get into
> > the calendar system meshes with the raw dynamics of the Earth,how a
> > 1/4 rotation's worth of orbital motion is omitted each non-leap year
> > and added at the end of 1460 rotations as the day/night cycle of Feb
> > 29th.
>
> The solar day and sidereal day are equally valid within their
> respective contexts.
>

Civil laws serve the purpose of preventing people from giving
themselves too many choices yet people who have no intention of
offending others need no laws,that is a central tenet of Christian
belief -

"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through
the law, then Christ died for nothing" Paul ,Galatians

You see,one thing worse than living by laws for the sake of the law is
not knowing why laws are there in the first place .The cult mentality
you live by is lawlessness,there are no limitations to what you
believe and you see it as no bad thing whereas a person who
comprehends the discipline of astronomy would sense that it is not
possible to allow the mind choices it does not have.I live with the
freedom to appreciate that the Pi proportion represents an inviolate
and single geometric comparison just as I appreciate the astronomical
version which relates 365 1/4 rotations to 1 orbital circumference,for
you there are no restrictions or discipline for you allow two
alternative values for the same orbital circumference in imagining two
type of 360 degree rotations.

> > " therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days
> > added to their end, so one day as feast of Benevolent Gods [the
> > pharaoh and family] be from this day after every 4 years added to the
> > 5 epagomenae before the New Year, whereby all men shall learn, that
> > what was a little defective in the order as regards the seasons and
> > the year, as also the opinions which are contained in the rules of the
> > learned on the heavenly orbits, are now corrected and improved.."
> > Canopus Decree
>
> Ah . . . so your close-minded unilateral view has a basis on faith in
> an ancient Egyptian writing.  To expect modern scientific minds to
> abandon logic and reason in order to conform to your faith-based view
> is irrational.

The Earth turns 1461 times in 4 years in order to keep the days in
sync with the progression of seasons,that is what the ancient
astronomers are telling you in that passage is amazing by virtue of
explaining why a leap day is required.I make no distinction between
faith ,inspiration and the ability to feel the importance of somebody
else's work and readers here are looking at one of the oldest
commentaries on the creation of the calendar system as we know it.If
you imagine 366 1/4 rotations in a year and 1465 rotations in 1461
days there is no feeling there,it is done almost as mockery but
isn't,you genuinely believe that when accurate clocks suddenly
appeared in the late 17th century that all of a sudden the proportion
of rotations/days to a year went from 365 1/4 to 366 1/4 .

 For you to continually engage in this fruitless task
> day after day, month after month, year after year serves no purpose
> other than the feeding of your own belief that you are doing what
> you've been 'called upon' to do.  What reward are you hoping to gain
> for your unwavering devotion (obsession)?
>

Not only an entire heritage destroyed for no good reason,the assault
on Western civilization by a group of mathematical upstarts with no
respect for the geometric language of astronomy or much else.All those
areas of climate and geology which mesh with the motions of the Earth
destroyed so you children can pretend you are astronomers and I assure
you that the festering behavior here only makes me more determined to
discover people who love humanity and human achievement,not ideologues
who insist on giving the Earth two different 360 degrees rotations for
the same orbital circumference.

> > I don't mind if you have destroyed your life for no good reason,I
> > really don't,that you are part of a group who would destroy the minds
> > of students is a different story.Not even the offer to work with
> > empiricists on a level which is not utterly stupid is rejected insofar
> > as the only interpretative effort of deriving the rotation of the
> > Earth in proportion to 4 orbital cycles is rejected.
>
> My acceptance of 1461 rotations in four years is viewed by you to be
> unacceptable for no other reason than that I, in a different context,
> also accept 1465 rotations in four years.
>

Any person of intelligence reading that would discover an afflicted
mind but rather just extract the rotation out of daily temperature
data and work out everything from there.The period of 365 days 5 hours
49 minutes is based on the motion of the Earth through its full
orbital circumference,that 6 hours corresponding to 1/4 rotation is
parked during a non leap year as the rotation of the Earth occurs 1461
times to keep the daily cycle in line with the orbital cycle but
picked up the extra rotation on Feb 29th which happens to be the 1461
st rotation.You can't get your heads around the references which uses
the background star as a gauge for the orbital motion and only the
orbital motion of the Earth,count the number of days/rotations that
keep the framework and the seasons in line (1461 days) and then work
out how to maintain a fixed relationship between 365 1/4 rotations/
days and 1 orbital cycle/1 year so that we can move on to discussing
important modifications.

You just got an education in that paragraph that nobody else ever had
but a cult follower doesn't adapt,they merely see 366 1/4 rotations in
365 1/4 days,anyone,even those who hated me would come to hate their
own system once they see the details where the motions of the Earth
mesh with the calendar system.How they manage to keep quiet is quite
amazing.

> Perhaps after a few more years have passed, if we're both still
> around, I'll slip in another reference to 'equinoxes' or one of your
> other trigger words in order to provoke a reply to see how you've
> changed.  Then again . . .
>

I leave you to your fate,people are generally good,intelligent and
with familiarity enjoy working things out by themselves and allow the
rules to dictate themselves rather than bending or distorting
information to suit a conclusion.The celestial arena can bring no joy
for you for what you have found is only in yourself an imagines to be
there.

Eventually,and despite the obstacles your cult puts in front of
students, they will learn the details of why the Earth turns once in
24 hours,365 1/4 times a year and 1461 rotations in 1461 days or 4
orbital circumferences of the Earth.It would seem that these string of
facts alone make for an astronomer and the effects of these motions
are spectacular and with every person every single day,that you made
yourselves slaves to ideologies that exist only in the imagination
demonstartaes that for all the choices you allow yourselves,you are no
free men.