Application/Use of Sage in IT company or Industries

[Priyanka Kapoor]

I want to ask that what is the use of sage? Why should we use it?
Where its being used till date?
These questions might be simple and i want to know before i go deep in
sage. Please everyone on this mailing list reply that why you use
sage?
Whatever i think about sage is that sage is helpful for teaching maths.




--
Priyanka Kapoor
http://kapoorpriyanka.in
Linux User Group, Ludhiana

[arshpreet singh]

hello sage users and developers.one of my friend asked me the
following questions.can you please give the sufficient information?

[William Stein]

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Priyanka Kapoor
<anjalicool...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I want to ask that what is the use of sage? Why should we use it?
> Where its being used till date?

That's kind of impossible to answer. Imagine if somebody asked you:

What is the use of mathematics? Why should we use mathematics?
Where is mathematics being used until now?

-- William

> These questions might be simple and i want to know before i go deep in
> sage. Please everyone on this mailing list reply that why you use
> sage?
> Whatever i think about sage is that sage is helpful for teaching maths.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Priyanka Kapoor
> http://kapoorpriyanka.in
> Linux User Group, Ludhiana
>

> --
> To post to this group, send email to sage-s...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-support...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support
> URL: http://www.sagemath.org



--
William Stein
Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

[Nathann Cohen]

That's specifically the kind of questions that make me hate the scientific spirit.

"Prove it, or it does not exist", instead of "It looks like it exists but I don't get how".

I think that Sage is useless, and as the mathematics that made me work on it are totally useless too I do not mind much. But that's not that bad, because I think advertisement is useless AND hurts both the environment and people that have to live with that around them, and I also think computers are useless because they require thousands of people to work on them (from producters to coders) to simplify some things that we would not even think worth doing otherwise, and so that's another example of being both useless and bad for mankind. I think that politics is useless in the best case and dangerous in all others, and that people would live better if we got rid of those guys that consistently try to be elected leader and to have power over everybody else.

I think being useless, and *only* useless is actually a pretty good thing. Most things do much, much worse.

So, to answer your questions, I guess that Sage has no proper use. And I think nobody should ever use it under any circumstances. I would not use it myself if I were not adding code to it, and I add code to it because through the years it remains unable to do what I would like it to do without having to code it myself.

Oh. And as a developper in the graph section, I do not really want what I code to be useful. I just want the users to be happy. 

They want to do something -> they are surprised when they find out that the feature they need actually exists -> they get on doing whatever they were doing, and if possible listen to some nice music.

The worst that could happen is :

They want to do something -> they spend hours to only find out that there is no clean way to do what they had in mind -> they drop whatever they had in mind to write Sage code, which takes a lifetime, and totally forget what they wanted to do in the first place.

That would be a failure. And that's the totality of MY Sage experience.

But somehow I came to like that. When I ask Sage a question it never answers it, instead it asks me to write a new algorithm or teaches me something about Python, Cython, or programming in general. I learn a lot of stuff this way, but the question stay unanswered.

Hence, do not use Sage if you have something specific in mind. It just won't help :-)

Nathann

[David Kirkby]

William,

I think you are being overly negative, although I agree the question
could have been put a little better.

If someone is thinking of using Sage in industry, they are likely to
want to know how much it is used in industry.

I think I'd answer this by pointing out some of the advantages
compared to commerical, sotware.

[arshpreet singh]

> I think you are being overly negative, although I agree the question
> could have been put a little better.
>
> If someone is thinking of using Sage in industry, they are likely to
> want to know how much it is used in industry.
>
> I think I'd answer this by pointing out some of the advantages
> compared to commerical, sotware.

this is a little bit suggestion from a student and beginner's mind.i
apology if it will hurt someone's feelings. :)
comparison can be easily searched on google .please tell about the
applications using sage-math which needs to perform mathematical
calculations or an application based on latex but need sage-math also.

the description about sage single cell server can also be added.

[Anton Sherwood]

On 2012-5-10 04:59, Nathann Cohen wrote:
> I would not use it myself if I were not adding code to it, and I add
> code to it because through the years it remains unable to do what I
> would like it to do without having to code it myself.

It's turtles all the way down!

--
Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org *\\* www.zazzle.com/tamfang

[Nathann Cohen]

> It's turtles all the way down!

I'm quite afraid it is.

Nathann

[H.S.Rai]

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 6:36 PM, David Kirkby <david....@onetel.net> wrote:
>
> I think you are being overly negative, although I agree the question
> could have been put a little better.
>
> If someone is thinking of using Sage in industry, they are likely to
> want to know how much it is used in industry.

I guess all nice and great developers are working overtime, and they
got disturbed from an innocent question from a newbie, who want to
explore this wonderful software.

Rather what ever is asked should be in FAQ. Like,

What you can do with sage-math?

Who is using Sage?

What you can't do with it?

What its user say

Success stories.

http://www.sagemath.org/library-stories.html

http://wiki.sagemath.org/SAGE_in_the_News

http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/browse_thread/thread/efb05c839032803e/cba6f751578883a0

Let us encourage more people to adopt it, use it.

--
H.S.Rai

[Dima Pasechnik]

On 2012-05-10, Priyanka Kapoor <anjalicool...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I want to ask that what is the use of sage? Why should we use it?
> Where its being used till date?
> These questions might be simple and i want to know before i go deep in
> sage. Please everyone on this mailing list reply that why you use
> sage?

recently there was a post on sage-devel from Robert Miller (who wrote
quite a bit of Sage code):
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sage-devel/Hz9tagOntyg/CZLpRcF8XAkJ
soliciting job applications from Sage developers.

So this is an example of Sage use in industry.
Otherwise, indeed, it's hard to answer; e.g. there are numerous scientific
articles and books written using Sage...

[William Stein]

On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Dima Pasechnik <dim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2012-05-10, Priyanka Kapoor <anjalicool...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I want to ask that what is the use of sage? Why should we use it?
>> Where its being used till date?
>> These questions might be simple and i want to know before i go deep in
>> sage. Please everyone on this mailing list reply that why you use
>> sage?
> recently there was a post on sage-devel from Robert Miller (who wrote
> quite a bit of Sage code):
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sage-devel/Hz9tagOntyg/CZLpRcF8XAkJ
> soliciting job applications from Sage developers.
>
> So this is an example of Sage use in industry.

Nowhere in the message does he say that they actually use Sage. The
closest is "We do the math, using a lot of open source Python
software as well as our own secret sauce. We also make contributions
back to the tools we use, as we understand the importance of open
source."

> Otherwise, indeed, it's hard to answer; e.g. there are numerous scientific
> articles and books written using Sage...
>
>> Whatever i think about sage is that sage is helpful for teaching maths.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Priyanka Kapoor
>> http://kapoorpriyanka.in
>> Linux User Group, Ludhiana
>>
>

[Robert Miller]

On Sunday, May 13, 2012 5:12:32 AM UTC-7, William wrote:

On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Dima wrote:
> recently there was a post on sage-devel from Robert Miller (who wrote
> quite a bit of Sage code):
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sage-devel/Hz9tagOntyg/CZLpRcF8XAkJ
> soliciting job applications from Sage developers.
>
> So this is an example of Sage use in industry.

Nowhere in the message does he say that they actually use Sage.    The
closest is  "We do the math, using a lot of open source Python
software  as well as our own secret sauce. We also make contributions
back to the tools we use, as we understand the importance of open
source."

Well spotted! In fact it's probably hard to classify in general. The full story: we don't use Sage in production, but we use several of its components, including atlas, numpy, scipy, R. I have made extensive use of Sage in prototyping things. In fact I've actually ported some of the Python 2.7 code we have to be compatible with 2.6 so that I can import our libraries in a Sage environment.

I think that Sage can be a very hard sell for sysadmin/ops type people in industry, because it is a very big install and the latest versions aren't available through debian or things like pip or easy_install. Although we here all realize that Sage Just Works, when someone in that sort of role looks at Sage as a project that might need to be installed on their production servers, they easily bristle. That's what happened at my job, so instead we are installing the pieces that we need individually (and again Sage was a big help as we consulted it a few times to fix compilation/linking issues that had already been solved in the Sage distro).

[Keshav Kini]

Robert Miller <rlmil...@gmail.com> writes:
> In fact I've actually ported some of the Python 2.7 code we
> have to be compatible with 2.6

Even though we have Python 2.7 in 5.0? Well, 5.0 is not out yet, though,
which is of course a bad thing.

-Keshav

----
Join us in #sagemath on irc.freenode.net !

[Dr. David Kirkby]

On 05/13/12 06:36 PM, Robert Miller wrote:

> I think that Sage can be a very hard sell for sysadmin/ops type people in
> industry, because it is a very big install

Sage is similar in size to Mathematica, and probably MATLAB and Maple too. The
binary installations for all of these packages are 100's of MB.

> and the latest versions aren't
> available through debian or things like pip or easy_install.

That is more likely to be an issue.

> Although we
> here all realize that Sage Just Works, when someone in that sort of role
> looks at Sage as a project that might need to be installed on their
> production servers, they easily bristle.

Production servers and Sage will never mix in the eyes of a competent system
admin who values his/her job.


For me at least, it is hard to justify using Sage for commercial purposes. There
are several reasons

* You can't buy a commercial support contract. So any support issues must be on
a public forum. (Compare this to Apache and Wireshark, which are two open-source
tools used a lot commercially).

* It's not a native Windows application. (Personally I'm not fan of Windows, but
not everyone shares my views.)

* Code is depreciated quite regularly, so if I write something today, there's a
reasonable probability it wont work for someone else in two years time with a
different version of Sage.

* There's a fairly high probability that on Linux at least, a later version of
Linux wont run an earlier version of Sage.

* I don't feel the software is tested enough.

* It does not have the pedigree of packages like MATLAB.

Dave

[William Stein]

On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 12:05 AM, Dr. David Kirkby
<david....@onetel.net> wrote:
> On 05/13/12 06:36 PM, Robert Miller wrote:
>
>> I think that Sage can be a very hard sell for sysadmin/ops type people in
>> industry, because it is a very big install
>
>
> Sage is similar in size to Mathematica, and probably MATLAB and Maple too.
> The binary installations for all of these packages are 100's of MB.
>
>
>> and the latest versions aren't
>> available through debian or things like pip or easy_install.
>
>
> That is more likely to be an issue.
>
>
>> Although we
>> here all realize that Sage Just Works, when someone in that sort of role
>> looks at Sage as a project that might need to be installed on their
>> production servers, they easily bristle.
>
>
> Production servers and Sage will never mix in the eyes of a competent system
> admin who values his/her job.
>
>
> For me at least, it is hard to justify using Sage for commercial purposes.
> There are several reasons
>
> * You can't buy a commercial support contract. So any support issues must be
> on a public forum. (Compare this to Apache and Wireshark, which are two
> open-source tools used a lot commercially).
>
> * It's not a native Windows application. (Personally I'm not fan of Windows,
> but not everyone shares my views.)
>
> * Code is depreciated quite regularly,

deprecated. "depreciated" is a completely different word.

[David Kirkby]

On 14 May 2012 05:23, William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> * Code is depreciated quite regularly,
>
> deprecated.   "depreciated" is a completely different word.

Sorry. An unfortunate error, though I could think of worst words with
a similar spelling!

Dave

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Sunday, 13 May 2012 19:36:13 UTC+2, Robert Miller wrote:

On Sunday, May 13, 2012 5:12:32 AM UTC-7, William wrote:

On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Dima wrote:
> recently there was a post on sage-devel from Robert Miller (who wrote
> quite a bit of Sage code):
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sage-devel/Hz9tagOntyg/CZLpRcF8XAkJ
> soliciting job applications from Sage developers.
>
> So this is an example of Sage use in industry.

Nowhere in the message does he say that they actually use Sage.    The
closest is  "We do the math, using a lot of open source Python
software  as well as our own secret sauce. We also make contributions
back to the tools we use, as we understand the importance of open
source."

Well spotted! In fact it's probably hard to classify in general. The full story: we don't use Sage in production, but we use several of its components, including atlas, numpy, scipy, R. I have made extensive use of Sage in prototyping things. In fact I've actually ported some of the Python 2.7 code we have to be compatible with 2.6 so that I can import our libraries in a Sage environment.

 

quid.com would neither confirm nor deny they use Sage :-)

 

I think that Sage can be a very hard sell for sysadmin/ops type people in industry, because it is a very big install and the latest versions aren't available through debian or things like pip or easy_install. Although we here all realize that Sage Just Works, when someone in that sort of role looks at Sage as a project that might need to be installed on their production servers, they easily bristle. That's what happened at my job, so instead we are installing the pieces that we need individually (and again Sage was a big help as we consulted it a few times to fix compilation/linking issues that had already been solved in the Sage distro).

yeah, sysadmins tend to be PITAs. They have to justify their existence, so they want to spend 10 times more time and effort to install and maintain a part of Sage rather than using Sage as it is :-)

They even think that easy_install and pip and debian always work...