[rspec-users] Time for seperate cucumber mailing list?
Andrew Premdas
Because cucumber really is a seperate mature topic now.
Because rspec overlap is getting smaller (relatively)
WDYT
Andrew
Matt Wynne
On 17 Jan 2009, at 04:18, Andrew Premdas wrote:
> Because traffic is increasing
I don't mind, I would most likely still get both lists into my inbox
anyway
> Because cucumber really is a seperate mature topic now.
Good point. Can any newbies to the scene comment if this is confusing?
> Because rspec overlap is getting smaller (relatively)
Meh. I don't know about that. These are two tools I use every day to
drive out changes to my code. I'm still learning when is the right
time to use each one, and it varies a lot, so for me there's still
significant overlap in terms of the people I want to share ideas with.
Matt Wynne
http://blog.mattwynne.net
http://www.songkick.com
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Kero van Gelder
That's a bad reason to split a list.
>> Because cucumber really is a seperate mature topic now.
>
> Good point. Can any newbies to the scene comment if this is confusing?
It is mature.
But is it separate?
>> Because rspec overlap is getting smaller (relatively)
>
> Meh. I don't know about that. These are two tools I use every day to
> drive out changes to my code. I'm still learning when is the right time
> to use each one, and it varies a lot, so for me there's still
> significant overlap in terms of the people I want to share ideas with.
Most interesting (imho) discussions on this list are about the larger picture.
"Individuals and interaction over process and tools"
splitting a mailing list reduces interaction ;)
And isn't it wonderful how a question about regexps triggers a team
to standardize their language? Too bad if you miss that because the thread
was on the other mailling list...
I skip the Rails questions, mostly; but questions about too often needing
"Given I am logged in as XYZ with roles A B C"
contribute to discussions about GivenScenario and nested steps, i.e.
helps driving the direction of our tools.
(meaning that I could argue that rails related stuff should go to its
own mailing list, but that I will not argue that; use delete-thread
in your favorite mail progam instead.)
I'd rather see people using topics like
[Rails] my models and viewers are out of control!
[Cucumber] I can not heckle the pickles
[spec] it should do
to allow people to filter automagically what they are not interested in.
A little bit of discipline that should come easily when you wonder the
entire day about the best specs and stories, and variable names, no?
Bye,
Kero.
___
How can I change the world if I can't even change myself?
-- Faithless, Salva Mea
Tom Cloyd
go together. I'm learning them together. It is critical that I
understand their interaction. It's not a big deal if the topics
separate, but I enjoy that they're together.
Tom
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA, LMHC - Private practice Psychotherapist
Bellingham, Washington, U.S.A: (360) 920-1226
<< t...@tomcloyd.com >> (email)
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
<< sleightmind.wordpress.com >> (mental health weblog)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
aslak hellesoy
Excellent suggestion, I endorse this idea.
Please start prefixing your questions:
[RSpec]
[Cucumber]
[Webrat] (Webrat also has a separate mailing list)
[Rails] (Rails has tons of other forums too - please only ask here if it's RSpec or Cucumber related)
[BDD]
[OT] (Off topic)
etc...
or if your post is about several topics, for example:
[Cucumber,Ruby]
[RSpec,Rails]
etc...
I agree it's better to keep everything on this list to keep the big picture.
Aslak
Bye,
Kero.
___
How can I change the world if I can't even change myself?
-- Faithless, Salva Mea
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Mark Wilden
Please start prefixing your questions:
[RSpec]
[Cucumber]
[Webrat] (Webrat also has a separate mailing list)
[Rails] (Rails has tons of other forums too - please only ask here if it's RSpec or Cucumber related)
[BDD]
[OT] (Off topic)
etc...
or if your post is about several topics, for example:
[Cucumber,Ruby]
[RSpec,Rails]
Posts on this list are on two different topics. A month or so ago before I started using Cucumber, I was deleting most Cucumber messages unread. Lists have topics for reasons, and one of them is to tame information by classifying it and being able to ignore what you want.
I don't see any *disadvantage* in having two lists.
///ark
Matt Wynne
On 17 Jan 2009, at 19:20, Mark Wilden wrote:
> A noble idea, but it's not going to happen.
Oh yes it is...
etc.
;)
_______________________________________________
Andrew Premdas
>> Because traffic is increasing
That's a bad reason to split a list.
It is mature.
>> Because cucumber really is a seperate mature topic now.
>
> Good point. Can any newbies to the scene comment if this is confusing?
But is it separate?
It is seperate because you can do BDD with Cucumber without using RSpec at all. The reason that Cucumber is discussed on a RSpec mailing list is purely historical.
Most interesting (imho) discussions on this list are about the larger picture.
"Individuals and interaction over process and tools"
splitting a mailing list reduces interaction ;)
And isn't it wonderful how a question about regexps triggers a team
to standardize their language? Too bad if you miss that because the thread
was on the other mailling list...
You can subscribe to mutliple lists. Having lots of posts about mocking objects in controller specs is going to make it harder to find your interesting BDD discussions.
I skip the Rails questions, mostly; but questions about too often needing
"Given I am logged in as XYZ with roles A B C"
contribute to discussions about GivenScenario and nested steps, i.e.
helps driving the direction of our tools.
(meaning that I could argue that rails related stuff should go to its
own mailing list, but that I will not argue that; use delete-thread
in your favorite mail progam instead.)
Rails related stuff has its own mailing list it has 17,000 members and I have 800 messages on it since a last looked at it! I certainly wouldn't want them all here
I'd rather see people using topics like
[Rails] my models and viewers are out of control!
[Cucumber] I can not heckle the pickles
[spec] it should do
to allow people to filter automagically what they are not interested in.
A little bit of discipline that should come easily when you wonder the
entire day about the best specs and stories, and variable names, no?
This is an excellent idea. But isn't it also indicative of the fact that this mailing list is being used to discuss a wide range of topics that have little to do with RSpec.
Bye,
Kero.
Thankyou for your input
Andrew
Andrew Premdas
My thoughts:
On 17 Jan 2009, at 04:18, Andrew Premdas wrote:
Because traffic is increasing
I don't mind, I would most likely still get both lists into my inbox anywayGood point. Can any newbies to the scene comment if this is confusing?
Because cucumber really is a seperate mature topic now.
Meh. I don't know about that. These are two tools I use every day to drive out changes to my code. I'm still learning when is the right time to use each one, and it varies a lot, so for me there's still significant overlap in terms of the people I want to share ideas with.
Because rspec overlap is getting smaller (relatively)
You may use both every day, I know I do, but this doesn't mean that the overlap is smaller. RSpec may be used by most of us to implement cucumber steps, but in many ways RSpec is now only as important (for Cucumber) as say Webrat.
Mark Wilden
Could someone explain why two lists would be a bad idea? On the other hand, if this list should be for RSpec and Cucumber, shouldn't it be renamed?
///ark
James Byrne
> Could someone explain why two lists would be a bad idea? On the other
> hand, if this list should be for RSpec and Cucumber, shouldn't it be renamed?
I think that bad and good does not really apply to this sort of thing.
Perhaps comfortable and uncomfortable more closely describes the
divergence of emotion when a group is faced with a possibility of
change.
My only concern is that if a cucumber mailing-list does split from the
rspec list that access to it be made available through ruby-forum.com.
I have given up trying to keep up with the volume of mail generated by
the ruby-on-rails list and the ruby list and the rspec list. Instead I
view their forums every few hours and tag for email notification those
topics in which I have a specific interest.
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Bart Zonneveld
On 18 jan 2009, at 18:49, Mark Wilden wrote:
> Could someone explain why two lists would be a bad idea? On the
> other hand, if this list should be for RSpec and Cucumber, shouldn't
> it be renamed?
How'bout splitting this list up into a more "beginners" oriented
version, and a discussion one?
This list is called rspec-users, so let's let this be the starting
point of questions like "I can't get rspec/cucumber/whatyouhaving to
work", and have a rspec-discussion list with the more high level/BDD-
oriented discussions?
just my 2cts,
bartz
Pat Maddox
is about. If you don't want to see cucumber or rspec or mock, add
that to your filter and have it sent straight to the trash. No sense
in complicating things when there isn't an actual problem.
Pat
James Byrne
>
> How'bout splitting this list up into a more "beginners" oriented
> version, and a discussion one?
> This list is called rspec-users, so let's let this be the starting
> point of questions like "I can't get rspec/cucumber/whatyouhaving to
> work", and have a rspec-discussion list with the more high level/BDD-
> oriented discussions?
My own experience with this sort of bifurcation has not been happy.
Putting all levels of experience together seems to provide a richer and
more satisfactory experience for all, in most cases. Where the audience
spans a vast range of experience then a seemingly innocuous how-to
question like, How do I get this regexp to work in cucumber, may lead
into a more fulsome examination of not only how, but why and when, you
use regexp in testing at all and why and when you should not. The real
value of experience lies in knowing what questions you should be asking
and not in just parroting back answers to the problem posed. That sort
of expansiveness, of looking at the underlying issues, tends to
disappear in nube/old-hand lists.
If a mailing list is divided arbitrarily along knowledge lines then one
has created an additional task of evaluating which list to post on. If
the list is to be divided at all, and I am not convinced that there
exists any pressing reason to do so, then I believe that it should be
fractured along the subject matter rather than experience levels.
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Tom Cloyd
> Bart Zonneveld wrote:
>
>
>> How'bout splitting this list up into a more "beginners" oriented
>> version, and a discussion one?
>> This list is called rspec-users, so let's let this be the starting
>> point of questions like "I can't get rspec/cucumber/whatyouhaving to
>> work", and have a rspec-discussion list with the more high level/BDD-
>> oriented discussions?
>>
>
> My own experience with this sort of bifurcation has not been happy.
> Putting all levels of experience together seems to provide a richer and
> more satisfactory experience for all, in most cases. Where the audience
> spans a vast range of experience then a seemingly innocuous how-to
> question like, How do I get this regexp to work in cucumber, may lead
> into a more fulsome examination of not only how, but why and when, you
> use regexp in testing at all and why and when you should not. The real
> value of experience lies in knowing what questions you should be asking
> and not in just parroting back answers to the problem posed. That sort
> of expansiveness, of looking at the underlying issues, tends to
> disappear in nube/old-hand lists.
>
> If a mailing list is divided arbitrarily along knowledge lines then one
> has created an additional task of evaluating which list to post on. If
> the list is to be divided at all, and I am not convinced that there
> exists any pressing reason to do so, then I believe that it should be
> fractured along the subject matter rather than experience levels.
>
>
programming beginner, and one about to write my first Cucumber feature
(with RSpec launching to follow soon after), I monitor the Ruby-Talk
discussion list daily. I manage the volume by having the posted
displayed in threaded form. I filter all traffic for the list as a whole
to its own folder. When an thread of interest to me comes up, I flag it,
and come back to it later. Yesterday, there were a total of 6 new
threads. Today, so far, there have been two. All other traffic has gone
to other threads, started earlier, and I've already marked them as
interesting to me or not. Problem solved.
So, may I humbly suggest that people simply use better the email
management tools they already have at their disposal?
I do NOT want to split the community here at RSpec/Cucumber into
fragments. I'd learn less, and I wouldn't have as good a contact with
the natural diversity that's here. That diversity is interesting,
entertaining, and rather often education to me, and most likely to
others as well.
As you said, this is simply not a high volume list. I don't think we
really have a problem here.
t.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA, LMHC - Private practice Psychotherapist
Bellingham, Washington, U.S.A: (360) 920-1226
<< t...@tomcloyd.com >> (email)
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
<< sleightmind.wordpress.com >> (mental health weblog)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_______________________________________________
aslak hellesoy
This is not a high-volume list at all. I don't see what all the fuss
is about. If you don't want to see cucumber or rspec or mock, add
that to your filter and have it sent straight to the trash. No sense
in complicating things when there isn't an actual problem.
Agree - and since our appeal to prefix posts seems to be followed it should be even easier.
The problem with several lists for related topics is fragmented communication. People who are not subscribed to all lists would not get the opportunity to chip in with valuable comments (or learn unexpected useful things).
Aslak
Pat
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Aslak (::)