Education
Tom Watson
The geniuses of the moment and the arguers of the nonsensical.
Grab hold of this for a bit.
There has been more than passing mention of Education.
But it always seems to devolve about the "How".
I would like to see us address the "What".
Why, in god's name did we ever teach Latin?
If you thought that was because we gloried in a dead language - mark
that as wrong.
Why did we ever bother teaching Literature?
You probably got that wrong, too.
Why would anyone teach History?
...sigh...
There are too many who treat education as a trade school and bear
little support to the concept of it being a training ground for -
humans - citizens...
You do remember when we were citizens?
Not consumers?
Not voters?
"Next to god, of course, America, I"
Were you paying attention?
It is not about "how" we educate, it is about "what".
As always, make your choices carefully - and keep your eye on the
ball.
Regards,
Tom Watson
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
jo4hn
Tim Daneliuk
> Well, I see that the usual Political Scientologists are about.
>
> The geniuses of the moment and the arguers of the nonsensical.
>
> Grab hold of this for a bit.
>
> There has been more than passing mention of Education.
>
> But it always seems to devolve about the "How".
>
> I would like to see us address the "What".
>
> Why, in god's name did we ever teach Latin?
To learn us better English.
>
> If you thought that was because we gloried in a dead language - mark
> that as wrong.
>
> Why did we ever bother teaching Literature?
To learn us how other people lived and see the common denominators
among us all.
>
> You probably got that wrong, too.
>
> Why would anyone teach History?
To rewrite it so that it suits current political / fashion and
to promote the Big State as the solution to all ills, historical
and current.
>
> ...sigh...
>
>
> There are too many who treat education as a trade school and bear
> little support to the concept of it being a training ground for -
> humans - citizens...
I rather respect trade schools. The produce graduates that do
useful things. A good many schools of more better learnin'
produce contempt for the values and ideals that make this
Republic work, principally because their faculties have never
had to sing for their own suppers.
>
> You do remember when we were citizens?
We still are. The term is just being defined downward to
mean either mindless nationalism or "progressive" thinking.
All else is held in contempt by far too many
>
> Not consumers?
The two are not mutual exclusive notwithstanding the romanticized
version of our cultural history frequently put forth. Were it
not for consumption and consumers, most of us would still be
working 16 hours a day on the farm.
>
> Not voters?
An imperfect means to an end, better than all known alternative
means of projecting our wishes.
>
> "Next to god, of course, America, I"
Common and polite use capitalizes "God".
>
> Were you paying attention?
For many years. More recently ... with horror.
>
> It is not about "how" we educate, it is about "what".
That idea lost currency the moment education became a function
of the Federal government. Today's "education" is a madrassas
for Statism, the rest is but noise.
>
>
> As always, make your choices carefully - and keep your eye on the
> ball.
Yes, do choose politically and socially between the Big State and the
Really, Really, Really Big State.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk tun...@tundraware.com
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
Stewart Schooley
Stewart Schooley
Stewart Schooley
"Stewart Schooley" <ge...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:vI2dnUXba4dfYh_a...@bright.net...
about the empty posts.
Maybe we should talk about 'who' and 'where' we teach. As a retired teacher
I know that if a kid doesn't want to learn, no amount of increased
educational spending will make him learn and if a kid wants to learn,
nothing can stop him.
There are too many schools in this country where 1/3 of the students show up
to be students,1/3 shows up to hang out and 1/3 doesn't show up.
It's time to separate students into different schools according to their
motivation and to give up the idea that if we spend enough money we can save
everybody.
Stewart
John E.
sufficient and at what age do you simply write off those who you deem
"unmotivated"?
As the father of a child saddled with both a learning disability and an
extremely high IQ, I'm naturally curious about your parameters.
John E.
"Stewart Schooley" <ge...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:1uSdnRa0sdY9nh7a...@bright.net...
Lew Hodgett
"Stewart Schooley" wrote :
> Maybe we should talk about 'who' and 'where' we teach. As a retired
teacher
> I know that if a kid doesn't want to learn, no amount of increased
> educational spending will make him learn and if a kid wants to
learn,
> nothing can stop him.
If a kid doesn't want to learn, sounds like a failure of the teacher
to properly communicate and motivate to me.
If a kid gets a chance to spend a few days mucking out chicken houses
when the temps and the humidity are both about 90, hopefully the kid
will learn something like maybe they don't want to muck any more
chicken coops.
If they are also informed that without an education, they will
probably spend a lot more of their life mucking chicken houses or
other similar unpleasant tasks, they will probably get a real big
chunk of motivation along about then.
Communication and motivation are tools that work almost every time out
of the box.
Know someone who fits the above like a glove.
Today he is middle aged, full blown rocket scientist who put himself
thru both undergrad and grad school with full scholarships.
As a 14 year old kid, stole his father's car, totaled it, and damn
near killed himself in the process.
It was a defining moment in his life.
Lew
Joe
> There are too many schools in this country where 1/3 of the students show
> up to be students,1/3 shows up to hang out and 1/3 doesn't show up.
>
> It's time to separate students into different schools according to their
> motivation and to give up the idea that if we spend enough money we can
> save everybody.
>
> Stewart
I don't have the solution, but that has to be the biggest bunch of hooey
I've ever read.
jc
Jeff
> Tom Watson wrote:
>
> > "Next to god, of course, America, I"
>
> Common and polite use capitalizes "God".
>
There are several typos in that post - mutual exclusive? - yet you
chose to pick on this one, why?
Jeff
And then he grew up to be Queen of England...
(or maybe not; they don't hand that job to just anyone you know)
Stewart Schooley
"John E." <joh...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:s_Dgj.116080$MJ6....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> I'm curious Mr. Schooley, who gets to decide what level of motivation is
> sufficient and at what age do you simply write off those who you deem
> "unmotivated"?
>
> As the father of a child saddled with both a learning disability and an
> extremely high IQ, I'm naturally curious about your parameters.
>
>
Children with special needs are a different category entirely. There are all
kinds of programs for these children in schools all over the country. Most
of these programs attempt to integrate these students as much as possible
into the regular school environment and that is desirable.
Spending money on these students and on studies that allow educators to work
with health professionals to develop the best programs for these students is
money well spent.
Stewart
Swingman
> As the father of a child saddled with both a learning disability and an
> extremely high IQ, I'm naturally curious about your parameters.
I'm the father of one young lady with a severe learning disability and a
respectably above average IQ (and with a helluva lot of fortitude and
character), who is now a senior in college.
It would boggle most minds to observe the volumes of paperwork, hard drive
files, e-mail, letters, minutes of IEP meetings, faxes, documentation of
threats/praise/encouragement to teachers/educrats (for doing/not doing what
they were paid to do), and the constant vigilance and involvement that was
necessary during the "public school K-12" part of the above educational
experience.
IMNSH(and very experienced)O ... the "What" we need in today's crippled
public education system can be inarguably be summed up in one word ... the
only word that is the basis of ALL solutions:
"parents"
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Tim Daneliuk
I was being a wise guy ... no harm intended...
BTW, on this topic, I thought this was interesting:
http://www.fredoneverything.net/DarkAge.shtml
Stewart Schooley
"Joe" <i...@valid.com> wrote in message
news:etKgj.41395$G23....@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
jc,
I have 33 years experience in education. How about you?
I may have used a pretty broad brush for purposes of brevity, but I am right
on target in stating the major problem in education today.
Can't you see that Swingman has it right? The sad truth is that too many
parents have relegated their children into being "hewers of wood and drawers
of water" and their isn't enough money or knowledge of what to do that will
correct this.
It is sad, but never the less we can't allow those who don't want to learn
to disrupt those who do.
Stewart
Swingman
> It is sad, but never the less we can't allow those who don't want to learn
> to disrupt those who do.
We've discussed this before, back in August of last year:
I still like the idea of the old "Tripartite" educational system I saw back
in the UK in the mid 60's ... read the above for details.
http://www.summitsat.co.uk/about-11-plus-exam.php
John E.
"motivated" and who's just a lil bastard?
John E.
"Stewart Schooley" <ge...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:prWdneZTdKT2PR7a...@bright.net...
Swingman
"LRod" wrote
> By the way, I am not at all unfamiliar with the concept that there may
> be more to that story than was presented or published. But on the face
> of it, there's a lesson which ties into this thread.
How about, "You reap what you sow"? ;)
Greg G.
,,,
>IMNSH(and very experienced)O ... the "What" we need in today's crippled
>public education system can be inarguably be summed up in one word ... the
>only word that is the basis of ALL solutions:
>
>"parents"
Hear, hear.
Although at this late date, and after being exposed to some genuinely
spoiled little cretins from a variety of backgrounds, I'm beginning to
appreciate the Samuel Clemen's style of raising children. Put 'em in a
barrel, nail on the lid, feed 'em through the bung hole, and decide at
age 18 whether to drive in the bung. ;-)
Greg G.
Swingman
> I noticed you sidestepped my main question, who gets to decide who's
> "motivated" and who's just a lil bastard?
How about "the student" ... through aptitude testing/testing, much the same
as is done currently to decide who goes to college, only at an earlier age.
England moved away from such a "Tripartite" system, that observably worked
extremely well, through an "Eleven plus exam", and now, after trotting off
down a less sucessful path, appears to be moving back in that direction.
Once again, see:
http://www.summitsat.co.uk/about-11-plus-exam.php
And once more, in a past post of mine:
"8th grade is a good 'fork in the road' ...
Those who have the desire to continue with
a classic education and go on to college can
continue on a different track without being drug
down by the shenanigans of those who have no
desire to ever go to college.
Those who want to go into a trade or technical
field don't have to sit through the crap and can
immediately get down to the business of learning
the skills that will eventually get them though life."
A much better solution for all concerned, including the country, IMO.
dpb
> I noticed you sidestepped my main question, who gets to decide who's
> "motivated" and who's just a lil bastard?
I'd give the prerogative to the teacher/administrator. IMO, there's no
problem in determining which is the former and which the latter, it's
the lack of being allowed to enforce discipline and whiny parents that's
the problem.
Sit down, shut up, do what you're told and we'll all get along just
fine... :)
--
charlieb
snip
> It's time to separate students into different schools according to their
> motivation and to give up the idea that if we spend enough money we can save
> everybody.
Well since we've tried, and are still trying, to spend a BUNCH of money
to keep THEM in jails and prisons, and away from US (last I heard it was
about $40,000 per year per inmate), it seems like the ROI on education
would be a great deal better than the ROI of incarceration - which,
coincidently, works like a criminal college. And some of our
"institutions"
graduates learn really, really well - and apply what they've learned.
They're not as good as the "real college educated", like the ENRON
folks, but still pretty good.
Wonder what would happen if we paid the best teachers the most money
to teach in the "worst areas" - AND provided them with the resources
they'd need. At $150,000 per year in salaries and overhead, it'd only
take four Not Bound For Prison Graduates per teacher per year to
become cost effective.
charlie b
Swingman
"charlieb" wrote
> Wonder what would happen if we paid the best teachers the most money
> to teach in the "worst areas" - AND provided them with the resources
> they'd need. At $150,000 per year in salaries and overhead, it'd only
> take four Not Bound For Prison Graduates per teacher per year to
> become cost effective.
Wouldn't do a damn bit of good ... throwing more money at the problem will
get you more of what you've got already. Teachers, and their salaries, are
only half the problem ... and we have about two generations of irresponsible
parents to overcome..
Better to give parents an economic choice by letting education funds follow
the kid, instead of the school.
IOW, open up education to competition and let the parents decide where to
best spend education dollars by giving them the economic choice to send
their kids to schools that have a proven ability to actually educate, public
or private.
Once that $150,000 in your plan above is free to reward those who actually
_educate_, is when you will finally see a "ROI".
... tuppence provided, free of charge.
Stewart Schooley
"charlieb" <char...@accesscom.com> wrote in message
news:4783FE...@accesscom.com...
You present some intering twists so I'll take one last shot at this thread
by offering you the example of the East St. Louis school system.
A Federal judge forced the city to spend 3 billion dollars on new schools,
equipment, and programs.The ROI on that money was that test scores went down
and the school system was offering free daily taxi rides to suburban
students who would transfer to the city system.
Allow me to present a personal example. I started 1st grade in 1937 in
Fairmont, WV. What kind of financial shape do you think the WV schools were
in during the Great Depression?
A memory I have is that the text and library books were plastered with
Scotch tape. That early tape was not transparent, but had a milky
translucent quality that forced you to tilt the book in order to read
through the tape.So we tilted and read and learned because we knew our
parents expected us to.
Charlie, looking for new ways to spend money as you suggest is not the
answer.
Stewart
Roger Woehl
Roger
Edwin Pawlowski
"Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>
> IMNSH(and very experienced)O ... the "What" we need in today's crippled
> public education system can be inarguably be summed up in one word ... the
> only word that is the basis of ALL solutions:
>
> "parents"
Most parents do a fine job. They get them to school every day, then pick
them up or get them on the bus. You expect more?
What I also found amazing was the attitude of many parents. We had various
programs such as class mothers, Home & School Assoc, a bus committee, etc
and all were open and requested as many parents as could to join in. The
same handful of parents participated but all the ones that did not accused
the participants of trying to run the school.
Greg G.
>"Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>
>> IMNSH(and very experienced)O ... the "What" we need in today's crippled
>> public education system can be inarguably be summed up in one word ... the
>> only word that is the basis of ALL solutions:
>>
>> "parents"
>
>Most parents do a fine job. They get them to school every day, then pick
>them up or get them on the bus. You expect more?
You're kidding, right? I'd start with basic respect for others and
discipline. And then perhaps an appreciation for learning,
non-disruption of classes by hooligans. Had these problems to a lesser
degree even when I was in primary school. Many times, a trip (or the
threat of it) into the hall with the vice-principle and his paddle
cured many ills - at least on the surface.
>What I also found amazing was the attitude of many parents. We had various
>programs such as class mothers, Home & School Assoc, a bus committee, etc
>and all were open and requested as many parents as could to join in. The
>same handful of parents participated but all the ones that did not accused
>the participants of trying to run the school.
Most assuredly varies by demographics. And I'm not talking racial
factors. I've heard from local teachers about bitching parents who
complain about the treatment of their "special little Billy". If he's
so damned special he can't behave in school, send him elsewhere. (Sub
"she/her" where appropriate.) Not to mention law suits, guns, drugs,
bullies, alcoholic parents, etc. It can be a nerve wracking job.
Slow I could deal with, malicious deserves to get it's ass kicked.
And then there are the time-outers. Kids pitching a fit in public,
screaming vile things at the top of their lungs, while the parent(s)
stand there watching and essentially talking to themselves. Not an
unusual occurrence in modern Yuppyland. Further south they get their
butts yanked. Guess where the most suicide/murder shootings take
place? Then there are the lawyers and politicians kids... Gag.
Greg G.
George
"Roger Woehl" <rwo...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:f5GdnbQC3_Tirhna...@comcast.com...
> Have any of you been in a public school in the last 5 years?
> Roger
Yes, and in Biology class I had to teach a bit of Greek and Latin to help
them understand and internalize the vocabulary.
In History I had to remind them that there were more white people involved
in the underground railroad than black, that the preponderance of invention
was accomplished by males, and that assimilation not separation was how
immigrants became Americans.
I answered the question of "what use" in literature by pointing out that the
themes are universal, and tell us a lot about ourselves as human creatures
even when its Hercules or a couple of kids in Verona who are really the
descendants of many others in tales where the parents don't understand the
love of two who should by culture hate one another.
I have to do this because it's not in the books nor the curriculum. I can
still remember my first encounter with the "whole language" advocates who
were going to by God teach Johhny to read using this new method, and weren't
interested at all in finding out how McGuffey readers, phonics or Dick and
Jane, became the basics for generations of readers. Most of the wholes are
out now, but our reading texts still carry some of their stamp when females
are not portrayed as mothers and nurturers, but professionals, each minority
of color is represented as often as the majority, and Joe and Mary are now a
letter longer at Jose and Maria.
What are we teaching?
George
> to teach in the "worst areas" - AND provided them with the resources
> they'd need. At $150,000 per year in salaries and overhead, it'd only
> take four Not Bound For Prison Graduates per teacher per year to
> become cost effective.
Cast a glance around at the rest of the world and you'll discover that it's
not the price of education, but how education is valued that counts.
The parent in the box with the colorful face is the one that counts most,
and it's not even a parent any more as when Wally and the Beeve were growing
up, but a peer, where kids are already smarter than elders as preteens. Add
that to the hormonal mess called adolescence and it really can get tough.
Hoosierpopi
post about Wood Working Education given this is a list devoted (I
thought) to that topic.
You hooked me into this and I should have simply "walked away," but I
thought to reply because my list of "
Today's most active topics:" appears t ist three OTs with only one so
labeled. Come on fellas, let's focus.
Today's most active topics:
* Joining two boards - 16 new
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/t/b6e373c2f38310d7?hl=en
* OT: Huckabee, Ughh - 16 new
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/t/fceb46c5f09f44d6?hl=en
* Education - 7 new
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/t/4da7537f906e152d?hl=en
* Woodworking Show at the Big "E" this weekend? - 7 new
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/t/4d957a9e1c69c4c3?hl=en
* Here we go again - 6 new
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/t/b4c6c43ccc6dd3f6?hl=en
Tim Daneliuk
You are a better man than I. A bit over a decade I got I had the
great joy of teaching graduate school for a bit. Now grad school
is a place you go "on purpose". Mommy and Daddy are not making you
go, and it takes actual effort and money to get there and survive.
Imagine my horror in discovering that a good many people had poor
writing, spelling, and thinking skills. Even the most elementary
math skills (this was a computer science course) were a stretch
for some of these students - all of whom had undergrad degrees
or the equivalent thereof. And this was at a fairly well-regarded
big city university, BTW, not Swampwater College. Even more
disheartening was the fact that it was almost universally
true that my foreign-born students worked way harder than their
U.S.-born colleagues - not just to overcome the language barrier,
but for the sheer desire to *learn*.
For decades, we've been accommodating the tender sensibilities of
the *students* in K-12, we've failed to hold parents accountable
for their end of the education process, and we've let the NEA
mafia hijack the process to serve their political ends. We now
reap what we've sown. The only fix is to go back to local/private
schools and make the connection much more clear between those
who pay for education, those who conduct education, and the
results they produce.
--
Joe
>
> "Joe" <i...@valid.com> wrote in message
> news:etKgj.41395$G23....@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
>> >
>>> There are too many schools in this country where 1/3 of the students
>>> show up to be students,1/3 shows up to hang out and 1/3 doesn't show up.
>>>
>>> It's time to separate students into different schools according to their
>>> motivation and to give up the idea that if we spend enough money we can
>>> save everybody.
>>>
>>> Stewart
>>
>> I don't have the solution, but that has to be the biggest bunch of hooey
>> I've ever read.
>>
>> jc
>
> jc,
>
> I have 33 years experience in education. How about you?
I don't need 33 years to have an opinion.
> I may have used a pretty broad brush for purposes of brevity,
Damn straight.
but I am right
> on target in stating the major problem in education today.
Attendance? Maybe.
>
I would find it difficult to measure 'motivation'. Opens the doors to way
too much confilct (lawsuits when you segregate based on subjective
measure?), which Iguess could be mitigated with lots of time and money which
would be better poured into educators than more bureacracy, which is what
the conflict mitigation would be.
>
> It is sad, but never the less we can't allow those who don't want to learn
> to disrupt those who do.
Agreed.
>
> Stewart
>
Edwin Pawlowski
"Tim Daneliuk" <tun...@tundraware.com> wrote in message
>
> For decades, we've been accommodating the tender sensibilities of
> the *students* in K-12, we've failed to hold parents accountable
> for their end of the education process, and we've let the NEA
> mafia hijack the process to serve their political ends. We now
> reap what we've sown. The only fix is to go back to local/private
> schools and make the connection much more clear between those
> who pay for education, those who conduct education, and the
> results they produce.
I thought the solution was more money. All we ever hear is how we don't
spend enough on education and how we need new buildings and new computers.
Education sure went to hell when the draft dodgers became teachers to avoid
Viet Nam, later became administrators, and the politically correct factions
came in. We really have to get back to basics and demand an education and
don't push kids ahead that have not learned in the grade they were in.
I just hope I did not hurt anyone's self esteem with my post. That would be
bad for them.
Tim Daneliuk
You may have also failed to properly norm for socio-economic
variations, gender bias, the oppressive white males, and
the general lack of transgressive inclusivity, nor have you
demonstrated sufficient multicultural sensitivity. I, for one,
am shocked, just shocked by this display ...
Tom Watson
<tun...@tundraware.com> wrote:
> Now grad school
>is a place you go "on purpose". Mommy and Daddy are not making you
>go, and it takes actual effort and money to get there and survive.
>
Except if you are getting an advanced degree in Education.
which is about the how
not the what
Mark & Juanita
> George wrote:
>>
>> "Roger Woehl" <rwo...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:f5GdnbQC3_Tirhna...@comcast.com...
>>> Have any of you been in a public school in the last 5 years?
>>> Roger
>>
>> Yes, and in Biology class I had to teach a bit of Greek and Latin to
>> help them understand and internalize the vocabulary.
>>
... snip
>>
>> What are we teaching?
>
> You are a better man than I. A bit over a decade I got I had the
> great joy of teaching graduate school for a bit. Now grad school
> is a place you go "on purpose". Mommy and Daddy are not making you
> go, and it takes actual effort and money to get there and survive.
>
> Imagine my horror in discovering that a good many people had poor
> writing, spelling, and thinking skills.
In my various positions as a technical lead, I have had the pleasure of
utilizing the "skills" of some of these graduates (bachelors through PhD).
The lack of writing skills is appalling; some of these people are
exceptionally technically gifted but are seemingly unable to string
together more than 5 words in succession nor put together a coherent
presentation or report to either document what they have done or get buy-in
to what they want to do.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
Roger Woehl
For all responders to this topic, in which generation would you place
yourself? Traditionalist (born pre1945), Boomer, GenX, Millennial (GenY)
Roger
George
> Greetings,
> For all responders to this topic, in which generation would you place
> yourself? Traditionalist (born pre1945), Boomer, GenX, Millennial (GenY)
>
A more appropriate question would be "when did you stop learning?" Think
you'd find the end of the alphabet quit before the "traditionalist."
What's the last book you read? Even better question. Mine is _ A History
of Medicine_ by Lois Magner.
George
>
> You may have also failed to properly norm for socio-economic
> variations, gender bias, the oppressive white males, and
> the general lack of transgressive inclusivity, nor have you
> demonstrated sufficient multicultural sensitivity. I, for one,
> am shocked, just shocked by this display ...
>
Buzz buzz. Gotta have those buzz words. Lots of folks out there care not a
bit for education as a pursuit or children as individuals, but they know
those buzzwords.
They learn them while getting their "advanced degrees in teaching" rather
than in subject.
Charlie Self
superiority of private educaton: I submit that if private schools had
to take the students that cannot be kept out of public schools, they
would be no better. It's a little like cherry picking in a wood pile,
getting the best knot free wood with the prettiest grain, leaving the
knottyd ebris for the next guy, and then complaining because the
second guy doesn't produce as fine furniture as the first.
Charlie Self
> "John E." wrote
>
> > As the father of a child saddled with both a learning disability and an
> > extremely high IQ, I'm naturally curious about your parameters.
>
> respectably above average IQ (and with a helluva lot of fortitude and
> character), who is now a senior in college.
>
> It would boggle most minds to observe the volumes of paperwork, hard drive
> files, e-mail, letters, minutes of IEP meetings, faxes, documentation of
> threats/praise/encouragement to teachers/educrats (for doing/not doing what
> they were paid to do), and the constant vigilance and involvement that was
> necessary during the "public school K-12" part of the above educational
> experience.
>
> IMNSH(and very experienced)O ... the "What" we need in today's crippled
> public education system can be inarguably be summed up in one word ... the
> only word that is the basis of ALL solutions:
>
> "parents"
You nailed it. Of far greater importance than fancy schools and highly
paid teachers, parents who spend time with their kids, and have an
interest in what the kids are learning, IMO. My mother started school
in what was effectively a one room school house, but her parents
helped her get and keep an interest in learning. The local high school
was larger and more modern, but kids back then got away with zilch in
school. She went on to locate a nursing school that paid a small
stipend ($15 a month) plus room and board, and got her RN. This was in
1928, and her studies contined on for three years, culminating in a
job with the Feds that paid $1,100 a year, which was pretty decent
money in 1931. Parental involvement.
That RN license allowed her to keep our family afloat when my father
was unable to work: all of it traces back to my lightly educated
grandparents wanting their kids to better themselves. Out of 12 kids
who lived to be adults, there were athree RNs, one high school Latin
teacher, a contractor (probably made the most money of the lot), an
exec for, IIRC, Hechinger lumberyards (granddad had a farm and
sawmill--shades of the Waltons and same area, but a whole lot sweatier
lifestyle), one was an auto mechanic (taught by my father) who ended
up as a teacher of auto mechanics at a local junior college, one guy
who worked in a machine shop, an assistant postmaster in
Charlottesville, VA, and on. All got away from the farm, or mostly
away. My auto mechanic uncle always raised a huge truck garden,
filling his own family's needs, and giving the rest (about 70% most
years) to local elderly or disabled people. One aunt married a farmer--
he died last year at 92, but she's still going, as is the former Latin
teacher and the assistant postmaster.
Charlie Self
> "Joe" <i...@valid.com> wrote in message
>
> news:etKgj.41395$G23....@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
>
>
>
> >> There are too many schools in this country where 1/3 of the students show
> >> up to be students,1/3 shows up to hang out and 1/3 doesn't show up.
>
> >> It's time to separate students into different schools according to their
> >> motivation and to give up the idea that if we spend enough money we can
> >> save everybody.
> > I don't have the solution, but that has to be the biggest bunch of hooey
> > I've ever read.
>
> > jc
>
> jc,
>
> I have 33 years experience in education. How about you?
>
> I may have used a pretty broad brush for purposes of brevity, but I am right
> on target in stating the major problem in education today.
>
> Can't you see that Swingman has it right? The sad truth is that too many
> parents have relegated their children into being "hewers of wood and drawers
> of water" and their isn't enough money or knowledge of what to do that will
> correct this.
>
> It is sad, but never the less we can't allow those who don't want to learn
> to disrupt those who do.
>
True, but today's kids, "hewers of wood,..." ain't exactly accurate.
Maybe if these kids had some meaningful chores as was the case 100
years ago and earlier, they wouldn't be so hard to teach. They'd
already have some self-esteem, and deservedly so because they earned
it.
Today's kids are too often handed money and ignored. Too many parents
that I've seen confuse discipline with punishment, too, so never
discipline their kids. Parenting is in the toilet today in far too
many cases.
Swingman
> What's the last book you read? Even better question. Mine is _ A History
> of Medicine_ by Lois Magner.
'Rookwood' - William Harrison Ainsworth. Written in 1834, considered by
literati to be the last "Gothic" novel. Half way through 'The Lancashire
Witches', by same, written in 1845 ... Being the cheap bastard I am, I get
all my recreational reading from Project Gutenberg.
Leon
>
> "LRod" wrote
>
>> By the way, I am not at all unfamiliar with the concept that there may
>> be more to that story than was presented or published. But on the face
>> of it, there's a lesson which ties into this thread.
>
> How about, "You reap what you sow"? ;)
Bingo!
Charlie Self
I'll buy your last premise, but the draft dodger bit is pure nonsense.
First, there were not all that many draft dodgers. Second, it is
difficult to figure which ones could become school teachers; for the
most part, they had to run like hell away from the law for most of
their college years, so they weren't licensed to teach or do much
else. You may be confusing draft evaders with draft dodgers--draft
evasion, such as mine (I enlisted in the Marines) is legal, as is
coming up with specious excuses for not enlisting or being drafted:
just ask Dick "Five Deferments" Cheney ("I've got better things to
do").
Swingman
> One of the longstanding bitches about public education has been the
> superiority of private educaton: I submit that if private schools had
> to take the students that cannot be kept out of public schools, they
> would be no better. It's a little like cherry picking in a wood pile,
> getting the best knot free wood with the prettiest grain, leaving the
> knottyd ebris for the next guy, and then complaining because the
> second guy doesn't produce as fine furniture as the first.
Along with paying school taxes for public education, suppose I, as a
taxpayer, was allowed to draw on those same school tax dollars and send my
child to any school, public or private, which had proven itself superior at
"educating", instead of being forced, economically speaking, to attend a
subpar school run by the current educrat bureaucracy, which we all agree is
not doing its job?
IOW, if the money from school tax revenue currently allocated for the actual
'teaching', not infrastructure, were allowed to 'follow the child, instead
of the school', you would arguably put the educrats out of business in short
order, with a resultant increase in the quality of education.
Worth a shot, IMO ... goodness knows the current system is a miserable
failure.
Charlie Self
> "John E." wrote in message
> > I noticed you sidestepped my main question, who gets to decide who's
> > "motivated" and who's just a lil bastard?
>
> How about "the student" ... through aptitude testing/testing, much the same
> as is done currently to decide who goes to college, only at an earlier age.
>
> England moved away from such a "Tripartite" system, that observably worked
> extremely well, through an "Eleven plus exam", and now, after trotting off
> down a less sucessful path, appears to be moving back in that direction.
>
> Once again, see:
>
> http://www.summitsat.co.uk/about-11-plus-exam.php
>
> And once more, in a past post of mine:
>
> "8th grade is a good 'fork in the road' ...
>
> Those who have the desire to continue with
> a classic education and go on to college can
> continue on a different track without being drug
> down by the shenanigans of those who have no
> desire to ever go to college.
>
> Those who want to go into a trade or technical
> field don't have to sit through the crap and can
> immediately get down to the business of learning
> the skills that will eventually get them though life."
>
> A much better solution for all concerned, including the country, IMO.
>
In some ways, it certainly is better. I'm not sure how well it handles
the occasional misfit like me, though. By 9th grade, I was ready to do
something else, though I was still doing well in school. The next year
saw me totally inactive as a student, a feature that continued
throughout high school, with the exception of American history classes
and English. I passed and was seldom disruptive, but I sure didn't
learn much--to my later regret. I also enjoyed woodworking and machine
shop, but had no idea of a career direction--that didn't really come
until I was most of the way through college, and 29 years old. I was
30 when I finally quit working my way through college, and sometimes
wonder why I bothered. A degree in English lit is not exactly a career
opening key, and wasn't intended to be. Part of it was to get my
mother off my ass, and part was to see what I could find out about
writing in other ages. Those worked pretty well. I still prefer
potboilers for recreational reading, but do a lot of reading in
various areas of history, archaelogy, and similar subjects. I like to
think I have a modest understanding of what has made people tick over
the ages, though I'm sure I'm wrong in some areas. The degree was
actually more of a start to a true education than it was the end of an
education. Too many people today seem to consider any college degree
as a ticket to big bucks; mine couldn't even get me a job--which is
why I ended up doing what I'm doing. A couple years as a substitute
teacher was enough to convince me that wasn't my field.
It may not be generally important to allow a bit more flexibility than
the Brits were noted for having, but I think there is some importance,
though I would imagine something along the lines of the GED as it is
in use today might work. And, hell, I might have enjoyed standing at a
lathe or milling machine day after day just as much as I enjoy sitting
behind a computer. Or more. Roads never taken...at least not for long
enough to make a solid determination. One of my old high school
friends combined careers: he was a model making machinist and also
road raced motorcycles in the AFM. Today, he teaches sail planing.
Gene never finished high school but owns land parecels all over the
western U.S.as a retirement package.
LRod
You mean like..."vouchers?"
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.
Swingman
> You mean like..."vouchers?"
Although that word/concept has been thoroughly tainted by the idiocracy,
whatever it takes to get the money to go with the kid ... tax
incentives/credits/whatever.
Tim Daneliuk
> On Jan 9, 6:31 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote:
>> "Tim Daneliuk" <tun...@tundraware.com> wrote in message
>>
>>> For decades, we've been accommodating the tender sensibilities of
>>> the *students* in K-12, we've failed to hold parents accountable
>>> for their end of the education process, and we've let the NEA
>>> mafia hijack the process to serve their political ends. We now
>>> reap what we've sown. The only fix is to go back to local/private
>>> schools and make the connection much more clear between those
>>> who pay for education, those who conduct education, and the
>>> results they produce.
>> I thought the solution was more money. All we ever hear is how we don't
>> spend enough on education and how we need new buildings and new computers.
>>
>> Education sure went to hell when the draft dodgers became teachers to avoid
>> Viet Nam, later became administrators, and the politically correct factions
>> came in. We really have to get back to basics and demand an education and
>> don't push kids ahead that have not learned in the grade they were in.
>
> I'll buy your last premise, but the draft dodger bit is pure nonsense.
> First, there were not all that many draft dodgers. Second, it is
No, but there were a lot of anti-establishment "poor little rich
kid" radicals who avoided the draft serially by getting student
deferments or their equivalent. I recall fairly vividly that
one strategy for staying out of 'Nam was graduate school. So
we produced a generation of "educators" who were radical in their
politics, suspicious of Western intellectual tradition, and
not honestly interested in teaching particularly. The results
speak for themselves. Go peek under the covers of pretty
much any state or secular private university and see what
is being taught in the schools of Liberal Arts and it
will make you want to puke.
Tim Daneliuk
Here are some fine examples: http://www.reason.com/news/show/124072.html
Money Quote from the U. Of Delaware (since rescinded, I believe):
"[A] racist is one who is both privileged and socialized on the basis
of race by a white supremacist (racist) system. The term applies to
all white people (i.e., people of European descent) living in the
United States, regardless of class, gender, religion,
culture or sexuality."
We can trace this kind of intellectual sewage directly to its 1960s
counterculture roots. These people have infested our education system
and turned it into a madrasah for their radical lunacy. And we
wonder why Johnny can't read, write, or think? He was "educated"
by people who studied under fools.
Broad brush? Yes. True? Mostly.
Leon
"Charlie Self" <charl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2ca030c6-5d9f-42ef...@m77g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
> One of the longstanding bitches about public education has been the
> superiority of private educaton: I submit that if private schools had
> to take the students that cannot be kept out of public schools, they
> would be no better.
Well, the way it has played out for me, our son went to both private and
probably some of the worse and best public schools in the Houston area.
Private schools have one distince advangate over public schools. The
private shcools don't baby sit for the parents, they disipline the child
when that is needed and they are not restricted like public schools are.
Additionally, kids that go to private schools probably have a larger
percentage of parents that are more involved than those going to the public
schools. I can assure you that the small private school that my son went to
also had the less desirable kids but those kids were not allowed to act like
wild indians. My son was friends with one of the less desirable ones in
private school and both went to the same public high school. In the public
school the other boy was expelled often and graduated literally last in his
class. He did well when in the private school. Both of his parents were
much more well to do than we were, so money was not an issue. Both had full
time professional careers and I'd say that their son did not receive the "at
home" attention that he needed.
dpb
...
...
> Additionally, kids that go to private schools probably have a larger
> percentage of parents that are more involved than those going to the public
> schools.
Bingo 1...
...
> also had the less desirable kids but those kids were not allowed to act like
> wild indians. My son was friends with one of the less desirable ones in ...
...
> much more well to do than we were, so money was not an issue. ...
Bingo 2...
Take inner-city kids, make them 80% of the student body and see how the
same school fares over time...
--
LRod
Ahh, now we're getting down to why some want our kids in private
schools.
And of course those same "some" think government should pay for it by
issuing vouchers, releiving the parents of the cost of getting their
child out of the "undesireables' " schools.
Now, when we take money from Peter (the public schools) to help Paul
(the parents who don't want their kids to go to the "undesireables' "
schools) how does that improve the already underfunded public
education system?
Dave in Houston
> "George" wrote
>
>> What's the last book you read? Even better question. Mine is _ A
>> History of Medicine_ by Lois Magner.
>
> 'Rookwood' - William Harrison Ainsworth. Written in 1834, considered by
> literati to be the last "Gothic" novel. Half way through 'The Lancashire
> Witches', by same, written in 1845 ... Being the cheap bastard I am, I get
> all my recreational reading from Project Gutenberg.
Legacy of Ashes; The History of the CIA, Tom Weiner
I've started Tom Brokaw's BOOM about the baby-boomer generation.
--
NuWave Dave in Houston
Joe
"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:fm5psd$6a0$1...@aioe.org...
> Leon wrote:
> ...
>
> ...
>
>> Additionally, kids that go to private schools probably have a larger
>> percentage of parents that are more involved than those going to the
>> public schools.
>
> Bingo 1...
>
> ...
Amen to that. Along those same lines, my sister teaches an advanced science
course (8th grade level) as well as the 'normal' level for the same course.
On parent night, 100% of the advanced students' class came to talk to her.
Only one parent of the 'normal' level class showed up. Hmmmm....... Maybe
there is something to this whole parent-involvement thing.
jc
dpb
...
> What's the last book you read? Even better question. Mine is _ A
> History of Medicine_ by Lois Magner.
Sherman's _Memoirs_ succeeding Grant's (the latter of which I stumbled
into on a recommendation found in reading Ike, the relatively new
biography)...now I'm ready to try to find Jos. Johnstone's, Sheridan and
wherever that may lead...
--
Joe
"George" <geo...@home.net> wrote in message
news:xemhj.41442$G23....@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
The Soul of a Tree
A Woodworker's Reflections
George Nakashima
jc
>
Swingman
> Ahh, now we're getting down to why some want our kids in private
> schools.
>
> And of course those same "some" think government should pay for it by
> issuing vouchers, releiving the parents of the cost of getting their
> child out of the "undesireables' " schools.
IIRC, it is taxpayer money that pays for everything government spends. :)
Our schools are not "underfunded" around here by a long shot, they're
"misfunded".
Greg G.
>"LRod" wrote
>
>> Ahh, now we're getting down to why some want our kids in private
>> schools.
>>
>> And of course those same "some" think government should pay for it by
>> issuing vouchers, releiving the parents of the cost of getting their
>> child out of the "undesireables' " schools.
>
>IIRC, it is taxpayer money that pays for everything government spends. :)
Well it sure isn't the interest from savings. The government at this
point is akin to a crack head nephew with your charge card and PIN.
>Our schools are not "underfunded" around here by a long shot, they're
>"misfunded".
Correct again. One major factor - bloated, bureaucracies stuffed with
favor passing cronies - at least around here. Many weak contenders
who can not make it through elections consider it an alternate
stepping stone to public service. Even when failing to reach that
goal, you should see some of the ridiculous salaries - many of which
the pubic is unaware of. School superintendent - $238,000 a year.
Not a major city, just an outlying country. School board attorney -
$420,000 + "bond referral fees" which add up to hundreds of thousands
more in some high growth areas. And yep, it's all your money. Wasted.
Greg G.
LRod
Try to find John McAllister Schofield's "46 years in the Army." He was
in the same class at the Point as Sheridan, succeeded him as
Commanding General of the Army, served as Secretary of War, was an
envoy to France, called the Hero of Franklin (TN, Battle of...) won
the Medal of Honor, Schofield Barracks, HI, is named for him. His
brother developed the Schofield revolver.
A shirttail relative, he was born 7 miles (and 115 years) from where I
was.
Leon
"Greg G." <gr...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:dp0do3tgp7kcs3cmg...@4ax.com...
Snip
>
> Correct again. One major factor - bloated, bureaucracies stuffed with
> favor passing cronies - at least around here. Many weak contenders
> who can not make it through elections consider it an alternate
> stepping stone to public service. Even when failing to reach that
> goal, you should see some of the ridiculous salaries - many of which
> the pubic is unaware of. School superintendent - $238,000 a year.
> Not a major city, just an outlying country. School board attorney -
> $420,000 + "bond referral fees" which add up to hundreds of thousands
> more in some high growth areas. And yep, it's all your money. Wasted.
And in the Houston area those high paid officials, running our schools, and
making hundreds of thousands of dollars are "obviously" the lucky
beneficiaries Affirmative Action.. To tell you the truth the last
superintendent of HISD sounded/spoke like he had a 5th grade education.
Greg G.
Forgot to mention that the salaries I mentioned are from 15 years ago.
They've gotten worse. Apparently GA wasn't much better than Houston
last time I noticed. I moved to Florida and ironically enough, the
same clown they ran out of GA ended up in the Pinellas County school
system - along with his perv son who tormented the locals with
helicopters and such over property tax foreclosures on "postage stamp"
properties near housing developments. I wonder if they are related to
the Detroit Mob Toccos? Nevertheless, he is another Rove/Bush tool. I
wonder how these folks rationalize these behaviors with their rolls in
public service?
http://webpages.charter.net/videodoctor/images/ATocco.jpg
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/02/16/news_pf/TampaBay/Land_sliver_s_buyer_m.shtml
Lucky you, he is now in Fort Worth, Texas.
2004 salary - $314,212. His daily pay rate for 2004 was $1,309.20.
Nice!
Greg G.
Greg G.
>Leon said:
>>And in the Houston area those high paid officials, running our schools, and
>>making hundreds of thousands of dollars are "obviously" the lucky
>>beneficiaries Affirmative Action.. To tell you the truth the last
>>superintendent of HISD sounded/spoke like he had a 5th grade education.
>
>Lucky you, he is now in Fort Worth, Texas.
>2004 salary - $314,212. His daily pay rate for 2004 was $1,309.20.
Errata:
No longer the superintendent of Ft. Worth. No forwarding address.
2005 salary was $376,000.
Gads, if we all got raises like that the economy would be booming - if
it weren't taxpayer money, that is. Not to mention the outstanding
lifetime health care and retirement programs - at your expense. If the
average American knew what these guys and their pals in the judiciary,
house.and senate voted for themselves, there would be pitchforks
aplenty headed towards DC and severed heads lining K-street.
Screw the tea in Boston Harbor.
Greg G.
John E.
thru property taxes. This of course results in smaller, wealthier cities
getting far more of their share of state funding than they need per student.
A good example is here in Los Angeles county CA. There's a small
incorporated city named San Marino that has one of the highest per capita
incomes in the state that borders the city of Pasadena. The San Marino
school district spends far more per student than does the Pasadena Unified
District yet they're held to the same testing standards by the state. Is
spending more necessarily better? Maybe, maybe not but giving students in a
publically funded school more of the means to succeed than others merely
because they get more money from the state is simply wrong.
To my mind, public schools should be funded as needed on a per student
basis, not on what the value of the homes are which surround the school.
John E.
"LRod" <duckecho@gmail-dot-.com> wrote in message
news:brsco3tf90umuid2h...@4ax.com...
Swingman
"John E." wrote
> To my mind, public schools should be funded as needed on a per student
> basis, not on what the value of the homes are which surround the school.
You get that passed, Bubba and I'll kiss your ass anywhere/time/place you
want and give you time draw a crowd.
Don't get me started on property taxes ... I'm ready to f*&^$$ murder over
that issue ... I'm going to cough up in excess of $14K in three weeks (75%
of that going to "school taxes), while my neighbor across the street will
pay 1/4 of that for the same SERVICES!!
Gimme a f(*&^ break!
Swingman
> And in the Houston area those high paid officials, running our schools,
> and making hundreds of thousands of dollars are "obviously" the lucky
> beneficiaries Affirmative Action.. To tell you the truth the last
> superintendent of HISD sounded/spoke like he had a 5th grade education.
In this case, an absolute perfect example of "being educated beyond your
intelligence..."!
Greg G.
>"John E." wrote
>
>> To my mind, public schools should be funded as needed on a per student
>> basis, not on what the value of the homes are which surround the school.
>
>You get that passed, Bubba and I'll kiss your ass anywhere/time/place you
>want and give you time draw a crowd.
>
>Don't get me started on property taxes ... I'm ready to f*&^$$ murder over
>that issue ... I'm going to cough up in excess of $14K in three weeks (75%
>of that going to "school taxes), while my neighbor across the street will
>pay 1/4 of that for the same SERVICES!!
>
>Gimme a f(*&^ break!
My condolences. Not that this helps any with your situation, but what
is interesting is that while I lived within the county of crony school
board and judicial asshats partially documented above, I lived within
the city of Marietta. The city ran their own school system, fire,
police, electrical, garbage, and water services. All of which
resulted in property taxes which were considerably less than the more
sparsely populated county at large, yet all of the mentioned services
were included. No additional charge. If you sat a refrigerator in the
street they would pick it up. They maintained the roads, sewers,
street lights, and even swept the streets on a regular basis. And
still managed to keep the taxes lower than the county at large. It was
an example of fiscally conservative policies that worked in the
public's favor. The county, however, hired half mil lawyers, quarter
mil superintendents, bought into *TAD's and generally mismanaged the
taxpayers money in general. You additionally had to pay private
enterprise for electrical, water, sewage, street lights, and garbage.
Has Houston hired the remaining runoff that fled GA, by chance, or did
they simply all go to the same f'd up business college? Got room for
a couple of judges who will be out of a job later this year?
(*TAD's)
http://gonelikethewind.blogspot.com/2006/11/collusion-repulsive-force-in-politics.html
Greg G.
toolman946 via CraftKB.com
a soapbox... not climb up on it!
And what's with all those book titles you bandy about?!? I don't think I've
seen any one of them on Oprah's book list!
(snicker)
--
Message posted via CraftKB.com
http://www.craftkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/woodworking/200801/1
Edwin Pawlowski
> Charlie Self wrote:
>> I'll buy your last premise, but the draft dodger bit is pure nonsense.
>> First, there were not all that many draft dodgers. Second, it is
Maybe you just hung out at a different school. There were enough of them
going to college only for the deferment. My 1962-63 high school Civics
teacher told us not only how to avoid the draft, but how to work summers and
collect unemployment the rest of the year. I can give a list of names if
you need it.
LRod
wrote:
Wait a minute...wasn't a deferment a legitimate program available to
any otherwise draft eligible youth? How can you criticize or
characterize someone as less than honoroble who took advantage of such
an opportunity? I had a student deferment until I got hired by the
FAA. If you want to call me a draft dodger you'd better be prepared to
come here and do it to my face. You may not like the result.
As it turned out, the ankle injury I incurred years before made me
ineligible. Not 4F, but not healthy enough for the level at which they
were inducting at the time.
Later, when the lottery started, my number was three digits and
started with a three. Does that make me a draft dodger?
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
dpb
> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:05:20 -0600, dpb <no...@non.net> wrote:
>
>> George wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> What's the last book you read? Even better question. Mine is _ A
>>> History of Medicine_ by Lois Magner.
>> Sherman's _Memoirs_ succeeding Grant's (the latter of which I stumbled
>> into on a recommendation found in reading Ike, the relatively new
>> biography)...now I'm ready to try to find Jos. Johnstone's, Sheridan and
>> wherever that may lead...
>
> Try to find John McAllister Schofield's "46 years in the Army." He was
> in the same class at the Point as Sheridan, succeeded him as
> Commanding General of the Army, served as Secretary of War, was an
> envoy to France, called the Hero of Franklin (TN, Battle of...) won
> the Medal of Honor, Schofield Barracks, HI, is named for him. His
> brother developed the Schofield revolver.
>
> A shirttail relative, he was born 7 miles (and 115 years) from where I
> was.
Schofield was well represented by both Grant and Sherman but Johnstone
for his role as antagonist on the campaign to Atlanta (during which J
Davis had him removed) and then later when he was reinstated struck me
I'd like to read more of his side of the story--then, of course,
Sheridan for his derring-do, so to speak as unattached cavalry to see
what he thought of how it went as opposed to what Sherman thought and
expected. Methinks there were a lot more "aw-sh__" moments than one
might think from this point. :) Then, of course, that hasn't yet
touched Lee...I've already got Schofield on the list, but it'll probably
be another year or two before I get there--there's only about another
month or so of real winter and then farming picks up again in earnest
(assuming it rains some more this year than last, anyway)...
--
dpb
...
> Sheridan for his derring-do, so to speak as unattached cavalry to see
> what he thought of how it went as opposed to what Sherman thought and
> expected. ...
Grant, not Sherman intended there, of course...
All these guys are pretty doggone impressive when you look at their
lifelong body of work not just the Civil War era. Makes most of the
folks we hear of today seem pretty small ime(stimation) in comparison.
I'm also constantly reminded of what "tough" really meant--the 12-yr old
regimental drummer boys, for example. Where are 12-yr olds today?
--
Edwin Pawlowski
"LRod" <duckecho@gmail-dot-.com> wrote in message
>
> any otherwise draft eligible youth?
Yes, when used as intended. The only reason some people went to college and
in certain occupations was strictly for that deferrment. They would be
considered draft dodgers.
> How can you criticize or
> characterize someone as less than honoroble who took advantage of such
> an opportunity?
See above.
> I had a student deferment until I got hired by the
> FAA. If you want to call me a draft dodger you'd better be prepared to
> come here and do it to my face. You may not like the result.
Why are you making an ass of yourself with the tough talk? Did you used to
be the schoolyard bully? Or just a big mouth?
>
> As it turned out, the ankle injury I incurred years before made me
> ineligible. Not 4F, but not healthy enough for the level at which they
> were inducting at the time.
So who gives a crap?
LRod
wrote:
>
>"LRod" <duckecho@gmail-dot-.com> wrote in message
>>
>> Wait a minute...wasn't a deferment a legitimate program available to
>> any otherwise draft eligible youth?
>
>Yes, when used as intended. The only reason some people went to college and
>in certain occupations was strictly for that deferrment. They would be
>considered draft dodgers.
How do you read motive in someone's heart?
>> How can you criticize or
>> characterize someone as less than honoroble who took advantage of such
>> an opportunity?
>
>See above.
Must be some magic goggles.
>> I had a student deferment until I got hired by the
>> FAA. If you want to call me a draft dodger you'd better be prepared to
>> come here and do it to my face. You may not like the result.
>
>Why are you making an ass of yourself with the tough talk? Did you used to
>be the schoolyard bully? Or just a big mouth?
I'm sensitive on the subject. I went to college with a student
deferment from 1964 through 1967. I was never in the military. There
are some people who try to create a nexus between those two
circumstances which doesn't reflect favorably on me in their eyes.
They verbalize that at their peril. No bully, no big mouth, but I
won't stand by to be labeled as something I wasn't. Would you?
>> As it turned out, the ankle injury I incurred years before made me
>> ineligible. Not 4F, but not healthy enough for the level at which they
>> were inducting at the time.
>
>So who gives a crap?
I see. Never mind.
Edwin Pawlowski
"LRod" <duckecho@gmail-dot-.com> wrote in message
>
>
When they say "I'm in school to avoid the draft" you sort of get a hint.
>
> Must be some magic goggles.
Nothing magical, you just listen to what they say. Such as "I'm not going
in the f---n army." Some of these were in my school, neighbors, etc.
>
> I'm sensitive on the subject. I went to college with a student
> deferment from 1964 through 1967. I was never in the military. There
> are some people who try to create a nexus between those two
> circumstances which doesn't reflect favorably on me in their eyes.
> They verbalize that at their peril. No bully, no big mouth, but I
> won't stand by to be labeled as something I wasn't. Would you?
I did not label you at all, but your making what appears to be a physical
threat just makes you look like the big bully. Quite laughable, really.
Generally comes from lack of self confidence, I'm told.
George
"John E." <joh...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:rFyhj.123928$MJ6.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> To my mind, public schools should be funded as needed on a per student
> basis, not on what the value of the homes are which surround the school.
>
That doesn't work either. Took all of two contracts to eat up a doubling of
per student funding in our district when they went to your system.
The property tax still comes up for anything but "operating expenses," so
there's no running from that, either.
George
"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:fm6nft$pp9$1...@aioe.org...
Knifing each other on the playground to protect dope-selling turf....
Rod & Betty Jo
"LRod" <duckecho@gmail-dot-.com> wrote in message
>
> Now, when we take money from Peter (the public schools) to help Paul
> (the parents who don't want their kids to go to the "undesireables' "
> schools) how does that improve the already underfunded public
> education system?
> LRod
Competition......making the public schools compete in both product and
price. Society (rightly so) has decided to fund education (approx. half of
most states budgets)....realistically the cost is based on number of
students.....taxes pretty much come from everybody including parents......If
a private school is taxpayer supported or a public school the money doesn't
really care.....By adding competition to the mix with required quality
standards, education can only improve.....Rod
Joe
"toolman946 via CraftKB.com" <u40139@uwe> wrote in message
news:7e07458182c00@uwe...
What good is building a soap box if you're *not* going to climb up on
it?????
C'mon, let's apply some common sense here!
(also snickers)
jc
Joe
jc
dpb
...
> ...By adding competition to the mix with required quality
> standards, education can only improve.....Rod
It's a simplistic, nice-sounding "solution", but ignores entirely the
problem inherent in any process -- effect of the quality of the input
material to the quality of the output product.
--
Tanus
> Geez you guys! I thought this woodworking thread was to learn "how" to build
> a soapbox... not climb up on it!
>
> And what's with all those book titles you bandy about?!? I don't think I've
> seen any one of them on Oprah's book list!
>
> (snicker)
>
I'll assume that post is tongue-in-cheek.
Regardless, there's plenty of room for
all kinds of discussions on a WW forum.
One of the reasons I prefer USENET to
other forums is that it's not moderated
formally. Informally, it's very
moderated by all users.
By and large, the Wreck talks about
wood, tools, problems, safety and all
other "on topic" issues. Just like if
you're in a small shop and you talk out
a problem with the guy next to you.
What's the right blade for this cut,
what wood should I use here, etc.
After a bit, those same two guys gather
round the woodstove or water cooler for
a smoke and/or coffee and talk about
whatever they feel like, which may
include getting laid last nite, what a
genius/buffoon Bush is, or whether Bush
got laid last nite. On topic to a shop?
Sure is.
It's all part of the process.
--
Tanus
This is not really a sig.
Swingman
"Tanus" wrote > By and large, the Wreck talks about
> wood, tools, problems, safety and all
> other "on topic" issues. Just like if
> you're in a small shop and you talk out
> a problem with the guy next to you.
> What's the right blade for this cut,
> what wood should I use here, etc.
>
> After a bit, those same two guys gather
> round the woodstove or water cooler for
> a smoke and/or coffee and talk about
> whatever they feel like, which may
> include getting laid last nite, what a
> genius/buffoon Bush is, or whether Bush
> got laid last nite. On topic to a shop?
>
> Sure is.
>
> It's all part of the process.
Well said.
Greg G.
>"George" <geo...@home.net> wrote in message
>news:xemhj.41442$G23....@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
>>
>> "Roger Woehl" <rwo...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:f82dnZSng800IBja...@comcast.com...
>>> Greetings,
>>> For all responders to this topic, in which generation would you place
>>> yourself? Traditionalist (born pre1945), Boomer, GenX, Millennial (GenY)
>>>
>>
>> A more appropriate question would be "when did you stop learning?" Think
>> you'd find the end of the alphabet quit before the "traditionalist."
>>
>> What's the last book you read? Even better question. Mine is _ A History
>> of Medicine_ by Lois Magner.
>
>
>The Soul of a Tree
>A Woodworker's Reflections
>George Nakashima
At least it's on topic. :-\
Around here, your children won't be reading the Hardy Boys or Nancy
Drew. Mark Twain books are also on the hit list of the redneck 82 IQ
fundamentalist book nazis.
In 1988, librarians in Cobb County, Georgia, removed Nancy Drew and
The Hardy Boys from the library shelves. The librarians cited lack of
shelf space as the reason for the exclusion of the popular mystery
series. Mary Louis Rheay, director of the Cobb County Library System,
tells a different story, saying that "series books are poorly written
and do not meet library standards for book selection."
OK - whatever...
Greg G.
Joe
wul ahm shore glad rayding all dem hearty boyz books dint effect muh raydin
n writtin bilities none.
Proud to have given every last one of my HB books to my son, who enjoys them
as much as I did,
jc
George
> Drew. Mark Twain books are also on the hit list of the redneck 82 IQ
> fundamentalist book nazis.
>
> In 1988, librarians in Cobb County, Georgia, removed Nancy Drew and
> The Hardy Boys from the library shelves. The librarians cited lack of
> shelf space as the reason for the exclusion of the popular mystery
> series. Mary Louis Rheay, director of the Cobb County Library System,
> tells a different story, saying that "series books are poorly written
> and do not meet library standards for book selection."
>
>
feminists, The Hardy boys didn't have any female help, so ditto. Twain,
well, he used the N word a lot, so the NAACP got him. Then there's
Kipling's kids' tales and Uncle Remus....
None of these groups fit the "redneck" stereotype. But they are
"fundamentalist" in every sense save the stereotype in the liberal press.
Pejoratives should at least be applied correctly.
Joe
>>
> Sorry, you're showing your bias. The Nancy Drew books were banned by
> feminists,
The Hardy boys didn't have any female help, so ditto.
Say WHAT??? Are you forgetting Aunt Gertrude??????
geez......
jc
Greg G.
Sorry, you're showing your ignorance. You don't know a damned thing
about Cobb County, Georgia, or you wouldn't draw such erroneous,
sophomoric conclusions about an area that is about as far from
"liberal" as it gets. Cobb has been called home by the likes of J.B.
Stoner and Newt Gingrich, and each was embraced wholeheartedly. The
NAACP had as much influence here as a flea to a dog's direction of
travel. Unless you call lynching Jews and Blacks on the courthouse
square "liberal". Additionally, well into the 90's, they maintained
two schools across the street from each other - one black, the other
white. Redistricting was performed on a regular basis to maintain the
status quo. Gays and feminazis were not tolerated. Rush Limbough and
Neal Bortz are their radio heroes. They embrace crooks, thieves, drug
dealers, bribe taking judges, and abject liars in the government - as
long as they support their myopic, regressive views about the world.
For over a decade they have been trying to ban the teaching of
evolution in public schools, and all biology textbooks are emblazoned
by a sticker that proclaims evolution to be a theory. Their daughters
are brought up to be glorified sperm depositories and baby factories
for the macho, superior men, and male servitude is their imposed
calling. Things have changed a bit over the years, but certainly
nowhere near enough to remotely consider it "liberal". Say, you might
just fit right in. I have some really twisted stories about this dung
heap you would probably enjoy. A generalization? Yes - there are
exceptions contained within most human camps. BTW, they are trying to
ban Harry Potter books as we speak. So don't even try to pigeonhole
this place with regards to preconceived nationally occurring trends.
And by the way, I lived 2 miles from the library in question while
this was occurring. As for bias, what "bias" would that be? My
primary bias is against arrogant ignorance. I don't buy into the
"left" v. "right" political/media hype. There are facts and truth, and
the rest is all bullshit.
You know George, contrary to your misguided belief that you know
everything, you don't. Perhaps I just take you the wrong way, but I
don't have this problem with anyone else. You're not a stupid man,
but you really are an impudent dude who cannot seemingly express an
opinion without offending people with your self-righteous attitude.
Maybe you could work on that a bit. But as with the morons who run
Cobb, not likely. I hate to keep picking at you, but you really are
going to have to lose the attitude if you are going to correspond with
me, regardless of how you deal with others.
Have a Nice Day!
Greg G.
Dave in Houston
"Joe" <i...@valid.com> wrote in message
news:DENhj.41483$G23....@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
> Proud to have given every last one of my HB books to my son, who enjoys
> them as much as I did,
I remember marveling back in the late 50s every time Frank mashed the
accelerator to the floorboard and the car zoomed to 30 mph! Me thinks my
set were original 1920-something prints. And, even though I knew at age
nine or ten that 30 mph really wasn't very fast at all, it never kept me
from finishing that particular book and starting the next one.
--
NuWave Dave in Houston
Charlie Self
> Swingman said:
>
> >"LRod" wrote
>
> >> Ahh, now we're getting down to why some want our kids in private
> >> schools.
>
> >> And of course those same "some" think government should pay for it by
> >> issuing vouchers, releiving the parents of the cost of getting their
> >> child out of the "undesireables' " schools.
>
> >IIRC, it is taxpayer money that pays for everything government spends. :)
>
> Well it sure isn't the interest from savings. The government at this
> point is akin to a crack head nephew with your charge card and PIN.
>
> >Our schools are not "underfunded" around here by a long shot, they're
> >"misfunded".
>
> Correct again. One major factor - bloated, bureaucracies stuffed with
> favor passing cronies - at least around here. Many weak contenders
> who can not make it through elections consider it an alternate
> stepping stone to public service. Even when failing to reach that
> goal, you should see some of the ridiculous salaries - many of which
> the pubic is unaware of. School superintendent - $238,000 a year.
> Not a major city, just an outlying country. School board attorney -
> $420,000 + "bond referral fees" which add up to hundreds of thousands
> more in some high growth areas. And yep, it's all your money. Wasted.
>
And you have to wonder at the layers of administration: naturally
enough, some teachers head for the admin area because of the pay.
Around here, a school principal gets about double what the best paid
teacher gets, while his assistants (of whom there are anywhere from
three to six) get about 75% of his pay.
Is that a sad disparity? Probably not as bad as the CEO who gets 5,000
times the 10 bucks an hour his lowest paid employee gets, but that CEO
is not paid from tax dollars. I wouldn't have either job these days,
teaching or admin, but it does seem to me that at least SOME teachers
in the system should equal or surpass the principal's salary. I recall
a few years ago having a guy who owned a furniture factory at that
time telling me he was delighted when all of his sales people made
more than he did. Seems a sane attitude to me, and one that with
adjustment might be applicable in many areas.
Greg G.
It may have been fluff to stuffy adults, but one of the easiest ways
to get kids to read voluntarily. Wasn't that the point?
Greg G.
Charlie Self
Not draft dodgers, Ed. Those were draft evaders and it was legal.
Cheney did it. Bush did it. Hell, I think most of Congress did it. And
that's one of our current problems.
Charlie Self
> "LRod" <ducke...@gmail-dot-.com> wrote in message
Well, hell, I wasn't going in the Army, either. By that time, I'd
already serve four years in the Marines.
But it is really easy to determine intent when someone gets five
different deferments, or joins the ANG, or otherwise manages to sneak
under the tape. I am still smarting from that sack of shit Cheney
having the gall to stand up in from of the Marine Corps League
convention and give the keynote speech.
Charlie Self
kids, and it has gotten millions who wouldn't otherwise pick up a book
involved in reading, at least for a start. And made its author a
billionairess (how's that for politically incorrect).
With all today's distractions, it's sometimes hard to get kids
interested in books, but without books, their lives are going to be a
lot less complete. Hell, even books by Ann Coulter have SOME value.
George
> George said:
>
>>"Greg G." <gr...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>news:0v1fo3hec5eistl74...@4ax.com...
>>> Around here, your children won't be reading the Hardy Boys or Nancy
>>> Drew. Mark Twain books are also on the hit list of the redneck 82 IQ
>>> fundamentalist book nazis.
>>>
>>> In 1988, librarians in Cobb County, Georgia, removed Nancy Drew and
>>> The Hardy Boys from the library shelves. The librarians cited lack of
>>> shelf space as the reason for the exclusion of the popular mystery
>>> series. Mary Louis Rheay, director of the Cobb County Library System,
>>> tells a different story, saying that "series books are poorly written
>>> and do not meet library standards for book selection."
>>>
>>>
>>Sorry, you're showing your bias. The Nancy Drew books were banned by
>>feminists, The Hardy boys didn't have any female help, so ditto. Twain,
>>well, he used the N word a lot, so the NAACP got him. Then there's
>>Kipling's kids' tales and Uncle Remus....
>>
>>None of these groups fit the "redneck" stereotype. But they are
>>"fundamentalist" in every sense save the stereotype in the liberal press.
>>Pejoratives should at least be applied correctly.
>
> Sorry, you're showing your ignorance. You don't know a damned thing
> about Cobb County, Georgia, or you wouldn't draw such erroneous,
> sophomoric conclusions about an area that is about as far from
> "liberal" as it gets.
My remarks were not specific to the county, but the country in general. I
know as much about your county's individuals as you know about mine. That's
what's happened country-wide. The pressure groups indicated have banned
more books than the Bostonians, and the ones indicated for the reasons
indicated. If you could broaden your view, you'd discover it's the truth.
Or you could think your county's the country or the world like a
stereotypical "redneck."
Greg G.
Well, that's a no brainer. A classroom partially comprised of
ill-behaved kids vs. a nice quiet office and more pay. No taking tests
home for grading, fewer whining parents. What's not to like? Not
having kids, I don't know the current breakdown for salaries, but I
have little doubt it is bloated and rewards are based on politics
rather than genuine performance.
>Is that a sad disparity? Probably not as bad as the CEO who gets 5,000
>times the 10 bucks an hour his lowest paid employee gets, but that CEO
>is not paid from tax dollars. I wouldn't have either job these days,
>teaching or admin, but it does seem to me that at least SOME teachers
>in the system should equal or surpass the principal's salary. I recall
>a few years ago having a guy who owned a furniture factory at that
>time telling me he was delighted when all of his sales people made
>more than he did. Seems a sane attitude to me, and one that with
>adjustment might be applicable in many areas.
The disparity you mention has exponentially increased in the past 15
years or so. It seems to me that attitudes have changed considerably
since I first entered the work force. Avarice appears to have become
the philosophy of modern business. Why? Who knows - probably a
variety of reasons, including television, unpredictable, vacillating
costs of doing business and living, and political trends. Healthy for
society? Not.
As an aside, what I find appalling and befuddling is the 42 million in
salary plus bonuses that are routinely awarded to CEO's who run the
company into the ground or bankruptcy. Then they move to another
company and continue the trend. What the hell is with that? Why are
we rewarding corporate raiders and incompetence so handsomely?
Greg G.
Greg G.
Well, the discussion was clearly labeled as being about Cobb, not
nationally. As for what I know about where you live, I haven't a clue
where that is, but from what I recall from 4 years ago, it's Michigan.
I've been there once. But if it's Georgia, Florida, New Jersey,
California, or Tennessee, I've got a pretty good handle of the views
of the region, as I've lived in each as well as knowing people
worldwide. I read papers from all over the country and the world, as
well as commentary from a variety of what I consider sane
editorialists. Some are considered conservative, some progressive.
Almost none are "mainstream". I don't claim to know everything, but I
do endeavor to keep up with the times. I don't believe in any kind of
censorship for adults, but I am careful as to what children should be
exposed to. And I'm far more offended by the constant airing of
"Girls Gone Wild" video ads on TV than I am Harry Potter or Nancy
Drew. Funny, I don't see anyone bitching about them. Don't
misunderstand, I love a nice nekkid female form, but female youth
exploitation videos have no place being streamed into my home without
my prior approval.
As for broadening my view, I did not refute your assertion that the
groups you mentioned have or attempt to influence nationally - only
that they held little to no influence over the region in question. As
for your closing attempt at a barb, I'm about as far from a
stereotypical Cobb redneck as it gets. And believe me, it's not "my"
county. I much preferred Florida and even other counties of Atlanta -
at least before the hordes migrated here. Even CA has many endearing
characteristics - but the cost of living isn't one of them. And one of
the factors that make them appealing is diversity - just not the
overcrowded, grid-locked, "attract the profiteering sharks" kind.
Later,
Greg G.
Greg G.
>On Jan 11, 4:06 pm, Greg G.<g...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> Dave in Houston said:
>>
>> >"Joe" <i...@valid.com> wrote in message
>> >news:DENhj.41483$G23....@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
>> >> Proud to have given every last one of my HB books to my son, who enjoys
>> >> them as much as I did,
>>
>> > I remember marveling back in the late 50s every time Frank mashed the
>> >accelerator to the floorboard and the car zoomed to 30 mph! Me thinks my
>> >set were original 1920-something prints. And, even though I knew at age
>> >nine or ten that 30 mph really wasn't very fast at all, it never kept me
>> >from finishing that particular book and starting the next one.
>>
>> It may have been fluff to stuffy adults, but one of the easiest ways
>> to get kids to read voluntarily. Wasn't that the point?
>>
>I think so. I also think Harry Potter is trash, but fun trash for
>kids, and it has gotten millions who wouldn't otherwise pick up a book
>involved in reading, at least for a start. And made its author a
>billionairess (how's that for politically incorrect).
The current obsession with the Potter books is a bit disconcerting -
too much of anything isn't a good thing and can displace reality in
young minds; albeit temporarily. I understand their concern of the
unrealistic "magic" stuff, but a part of growing up is discarding the
trash yet keeping the skills developed. Hell, I spent my childhood
believing I was going to get off of this cinder one day.
>With all today's distractions, it's sometimes hard to get kids
>interested in books, but without books, their lives are going to be a
>lot less complete. Hell, even books by Ann Coulter have SOME value.
I agree.
Even hate laden, vituperative screeds make good kindling. ;-)
Greg G.