Getting rid of TS "swirls" in rip cuts
Jim Jones
I'm ripping cedar for a picture frame to 1"X2". I'm new to woodworking, so
your responses may be "duh...", so I apologize in advance if this is a
stupid question.
When I cut the wood across the grain, the cut is OK. With the grain,
though, different story. I end up getting "swirl" marks along the length
from the tablesaw blade. I think this might be caused by the wood wiggling
a bit against the rip fence as I feed it through, but I'm not sure. The
swirlies aren't that deep, but deep enough that I can't get them out with
150 grit sandpaper. Two questions:
1. Apart from using a coarser sandpaper, is there any good way to remove
the marks?
2. The more important question, any foolproof way to prevent marks like this
in the first place?
Thanks for any help/guidance...Email replies are OK, too.
Jim Jones
jt...@ix.netcom.com
Pete
them to size. Hence, it will be as smooth as a baby's bottom and will be
square in case you drifted while ripping.
"Jim Jones" <jt...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9fgblg$cs9$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk...
Leon
thing out.
Before you can expect to get a straight cut or a clean rip you must have a
STRAIGHT board. If you have a jointer to straighten the board use it first.
That is what it is for.
Now, assuming you have a straight board, you make sure that your blade is
absolutely parallel to the miter slot that you use most often. Then make
sure that you fence is absolutely parallel to the same miter slot. Some
miter slots are not parallel to each other. Also if you have a fence that
locks down in the back as well, make sure that the fence remains parallel to
the blade after locking the fence. Then make sure that you have a good
quality blade on the saw. I personally use a cabinet saw with a Forest WWII
and the rips come out shinny smooth. With a properly set up saw you should
have a very minimal amount of cleanup if any at all.
"Jim Jones" <jt...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9fgblg$cs9$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk...
Leon
you are having to cut 1/8" too wide on every rip and then have to clean up
with a jointer. If you saw is properly set up with a good blade you should
not have to visit the jointer after every rip.
"Pete" <pe...@etep.com> wrote in message
news:UBOS6.18317$mG4.10...@news1.mntp1.il.home.com...
Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D., P.A.
>
> Hi all:
>
> I'm ripping cedar for a picture frame to 1"X2". I'm new to woodworking, so
> your responses may be "duh...", so I apologize in advance if this is a
> stupid question.
>
> When I cut the wood across the grain, the cut is OK. With the grain,
> though, different story. I end up getting "swirl" marks along the length
> from the tablesaw blade. I think this might be caused by the wood wiggling
> a bit against the rip fence as I feed it through, but I'm not sure. The
> swirlies aren't that deep, but deep enough that I can't get them out with
> 150 grit sandpaper. Two questions:
>
> 1. Apart from using a coarser sandpaper, is there any good way to remove
> the marks?
Sharp block plane.
> 2. The more important question, any foolproof way to prevent marks like this
> in the first place?
Flat throat plate. Blade parallel to fence. Joint bottom of board dead flat,
edge which rides against fence dead straight.
Jim Jones
Leon <removespa...@swbell.net.> wrote in message
news:YASS6.34$j77....@nnrp2.sbc.net...
> Not knowing what kind of saw and or blade you have makes it hard to rule
any
> thing out.
Craftsman (yes, I know, I know...please don't yell at me, as that's about
all I can afford (C: ) TS, with their standard "out of the box" blade, which
I think is a sort of general purpose blade.
> Before you can expect to get a straight cut or a clean rip you must have
a
> STRAIGHT board. If you have a jointer to straighten the board use it
first.
> That is what it is for.
I noticed a couple responses mentioned a jointer and unfortunately I don't
have one (a power j/p, that is).
> Now, assuming you have a straight board, you make sure that your blade is
> absolutely parallel to the miter slot that you use most often. Then make
> sure that you fence is absolutely parallel to the same miter slot. Some
> miter slots are not parallel to each other. Also if you have a fence that
> locks down in the back as well, make sure that the fence remains parallel
to
> the blade after locking the fence.
I *think* I did all this, but I'll review the setup again...of course, from
what I hear about Craftsman, this may be next to impossible to set
up/maintain all the "parallelness" needed...
>Then make sure that you have a good
> quality blade on the saw. I personally use a cabinet saw with a Forest
WWII
> and the rips come out shinny smooth. With a properly set up saw you
should
> have a very minimal amount of cleanup if any at all.
Sounds like I should plunk down the $$$ either for a hand planer, or (better
yet) for an upgraded TS. I know what I'm requesting from Santa this year.
Thanks to Leon (and all the others) for responses...
Jim
Mark Bronkalla
1. Throw out the blade that came with the saw or use it for cutting scrap.
The Sears blade and Vermont American blades are more closely related to
potato chips than anything flat. For inexpensive, but good, get a Freud thin
kerf Rip blade. Blade stiffeners are nice as well. The saw does not have an
excessive amount of power, so a thin blade helps a lot, but you must be sure
to not over-feed as it will chatter. To prove the blade is warped use a
gauge block (or a combination square held to the miter slot and measure the
distance to each tooth (on the same side). I have seen the Sears and VA
blades be warped by 1/8+". When mounting the new blade make sure the arbor
flange is cleaned and does not have any dings in it.
2.The Sears / Emerson / Ridgid manuals are excellent in how to set the
tools up. It does take a while. My saw took 8 hours to set up and initially
align dead on. Unfortunately a bad kick back can knock the trunnion out of
alignment.
3.Check blade alignment to the miter slot. Make sure you mark and use a
single tooth on the blade. This is a royal pain to do as the adjustments
(mounting bolts) are only accessible from underneath> Having an assistant to
help hold the trunnion while you tighten helps a lot.
4. Make sure the rip fence is straight - odds are it is not. Add a new
sacrificial face shim until it is flat and square to the table top. The
original fence is too low anyway. It seems the welded tube construction of
the fence is prone to warping. Everyone I have talked to has seen them warp
(just like Delta power miter box fences).
5. Make or buy a couple of feather boards. I found it very hard to clamp
them to the table top, so I tapped a couple of holes in the top (stay away
from the webs) and use a drill press clamp to hold them to the table top.
Your new high fence will work well with the vertical one. Having a feather
board to hold thin stock against the fence greatly helps to minimize saw
marks.
6. Adjust the throat plate to be dead flush with the table top. This is
difficult as they warp easily, especially if you over-tighten the locking
screw. Best thing is to make or buy some zero clearance inserts.
7. Tighten the pulleys (if a belt drive) they have a nasty tendency to walk
off the arbor and motor shafts. As they move out and wobble, the vibration
is transmitted to the blade.
If you do all of this and have a good jointed edge, you should have nice
cuts.
Granted these saws are not the worlds greatest, but with some TLC they are
very usable, and mine has made a house full of (fine) furniture and a boat.
The key is in the set up!!!
--
Mark Bronkalla
http://www.geocities.com/mbronkalla
"Jim Jones" <jt...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9fguvr$bgj$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk...
Timothy
this helps! Sorry cant find answer to second question.
Tim
"Jim Jones" <jt...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9fgblg$cs9$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk...
Mike Schwartz
> 1. Apart from using a coarser sandpaper, is there any good way to remove
> the marks?
Even a perfectly set up saw isn't always going to leave a finish-grade
surface on a rip. I use a handplane to take the blade marks off.
> 2. The more important question, any foolproof way to prevent marks like
this
> in the first place?
Set your saw up as well as you can, as others have indicated. Every tool has
a limit to its accuracy. I found that an aftermarket Vega fence did wonders
for my table saw.
Mike
Duke of URLs
>1. Apart from using a coarser sandpaper, is there any good way to remove
>the marks?
A jointer.
>2. The more important question, any foolproof way to prevent marks like this
>in the first place?
Tune your saw. Do a Google (best search engine on the Web)
for the TS Aligner. It's all explained there.
>Thanks for any help/guidance...Email replies are OK, too.
Not a prob. Sorry I didn't e-mail you.
Keith Bohn
SWarren81
I cannot argue with any of the advice you have received so far. The only thing
I will add is a solution to cleaning up the boards you have already ripped. I
have used a 3" belt sander with 120 grit paper to completely remove swirls from
the end grain. I then finished it up with 220 grit hand rubbed, and 0000 steel
wool.
Best of luck...
Slouch
Mark Bronkalla
--
Mark Bronkalla
www.geocities.com/mbronkalla
"Jim Jones" <jt...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9fgblg$cs9$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk...
John Gaquin
> I think is a sort of general purpose blade.
I agree with Mark's response. Throw out the standard blade, and get a good
carbide blade, 60 tooth minimum. There's nothing inherently bad about the
Sears TS (I've been using one for 21 years), but their ancillary parts and
accessories are less finely engineered than their high-end competitors.
What this means is that you have to be very careful on the set up of the
saw, and the set up of each cut. Even on multiple, repetitive cuts, you
should carefully re-check your fence alignment after several passes. It's a
pain sometimes, but it's not difficult to get clean rips from a Sears TS.
Good Luck.
JG
Geo
and tune it up. The second was to dump the fence as I could never get it to
work. I replaced it with a biesemeier clone that I built, which has improved
performance significantly. Admittedly, it's not a professional TS but I have it
working much better than when I bought it and until I can afford a higher end
set up this system has served me very well.
Donald L. Snyder
>
> I'm ripping cedar for a picture frame to 1"X2". I'm new to woodworking,
so
> your responses may be "duh...", so I apologize in advance if this is a
> stupid question.
yours is.
>
> When I cut the wood across the grain, the cut is OK. With the grain,
> though, different story. I end up getting "swirl" marks along the length
> from the tablesaw blade. I think this might be caused by the wood
wiggling
> a bit against the rip fence as I feed it through, but I'm not sure. The
> swirlies aren't that deep, but deep enough that I can't get them out with
> 150 grit sandpaper. Two questions:
>
> 1. Apart from using a coarser sandpaper, is there any good way to remove
> the marks?
jointer can help but also leaves milling marks.
>
> 2. The more important question, any foolproof way to prevent marks like
this
> in the first place?
stabilizer. A slot mounted or magnetically held feather board might be
helpful for holding the board against the fence.
Michael Briggs
1 Make sure everything is aligned PERFECTLY
2 Dump the sears blade and get a good combination blade and a good thin
kerf rip blade
3 While you are getting the blades pick up a dial indicator gauge
I tried different ways to align things and could not get a good cut till I
got the dial indictor. I found out how much everything was really off. My
Jet contractor saw rips boards with a cut that is ready to edge joint with
no clean up.
I bought the Align-It system, a bit pricey for what you get but it works
great. You can buy a cheaper gauge and make your own bars to mount it to,
save some money and get the same results. The key is to have everything
perfectly aligned.
Mike
Jim Jones <jt...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9fgblg$cs9$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk...
Andy Dingley
>To prove the blade is warped use a
>gauge block (or a combination square held to the miter slot and measure the
>distance to each tooth (on the same side).
This can prove that a blade is definitely bent, but that's not
usually the problem. Most cheap blades are flat when cold, but warp
in use when they warm up. A good blade is "tensioned" to avoid this -
you should be able to see circle tool marks around the centre of the
blade.
Robert Gustafson
you get what you pay for. I am a dyed-in-the-wool fan of Forrest blades -
use the WWI, WWII, and Dado King. All make glass-smooth cuts, virtually no
kickback. Have used them 10+ years, been sharpened once (at the factory).
They run in my 12 year old Delta Unisaw. Buy the very best blade you can
afford, and remember the old adage "Good tools do work; bad tools make
work".
"Timothy" <t...@baricke.net> wrote in message
news:54XS6.3$wF3....@news1.i1.net...
bugbear
>
> I'm ripping cedar for a picture frame to 1"X2". I'm new to woodworking, so
> your responses may be "duh...", so I apologize in advance if this is a
> stupid question.
>
> When I cut the wood across the grain, the cut is OK. With the grain,
> though, different story. I end up getting "swirl" marks along the length
> from the tablesaw blade. I think this might be caused by the wood wiggling
> a bit against the rip fence as I feed it through, but I'm not sure. The
> swirlies aren't that deep, but deep enough that I can't get them out with
> 150 grit sandpaper. Two questions:
>
> 1. Apart from using a coarser sandpaper, is there any good way to remove
> the marks?
Buy either of the 2 commonest (and hence cheap) Stanley hand planes
(#4 or #5) from a net-dealer, flea-market, or Ebay. Sharpen it.
Forget tuning, for with-the-grain mark removal, un-tuned will work
well enough ;-) It will take out the marks quickly and evenly,
without filling your shop with dust.
Mind the slippery slope.
BugBear