Jointing or Biscuits
Arthur2
For my exterior door frame project....
I will be butting together two lengths of sapele/mahog.
The individual pieces are about 22mm x 140mm and 1040cm long...and joining
them on the long edges to make 260mm wide panels.
Should I buy a jointing router bit or can I get away with using biscuits.
Once they are joined i will be fielding them.
Thanks.
Arthur
Chris Friesen
> I will be butting together two lengths of sapele/mahog.
> The individual pieces are about 22mm x 140mm and 1040cm long...and joining
> them on the long edges to make 260mm wide panels.
> Should I buy a jointing router bit or can I get away with using biscuits.
> Once they are joined i will be fielding them.
You don't need either...just glue should be fine. You can certainly use
biscuits for alignment, but they don't help at all as far as strength of
the joint.
Chris
SonomaProducts.com
glue and clamp job. Personally I would not do anything but that.
Biscuits can help with alignment and a tounge and groove or spline
joint also adds some strength but a panel in a door won't be taking
any stresses and even so, a glue joint is probably 90% as strong as
one with a mechanical joint if porperly glued and clamped. Be sure to
use a waterproof glue since this is an exterior application..
nailsh...@aol.com
> You don't need either...just glue should be fine.
True enough.
> You can certainly use
> biscuits for alignment, but they don't help at all as far as strength of
> the joint.
NOT true at all. This seems to be a widely quoted myth parroted
around here amongst the literati.
One minute of research will get EMPIRICAL research to show
differently.
You can get started here:
But please don't stop there. There is a lot of easily obtained
information about the strength of a biscuit joint when >>properly
executed for the right type of joining<<.
Note that method, project design and understanding of the joints made
by this machine are important when maximizing the use of it, just as
it is with any other machine.
I think this stuff started when couple of these limp assed woodworking
for idiots magazines (including an op-ed piece by Rockler that
compared it to the Dowel Max) tested the biscuit joiner to see if it
was the do all, end all device for every single application.
Obviously it is not, nor is any other joining machine.
But to dismiss it out of hand as being useless is absurd.
Robert
name
> On Aug 6, 1:37 pm, Chris Friesen <cbf...@mail.usask.ca> wrote:
>
>> You don't need either...just glue should be fine.
>
> True enough.
>
>> You can certainly use
>> biscuits for alignment, but they don't help at all as far as strength of
>> the joint.
>
> NOT true at all. This seems to be a widely quoted myth parroted
> around here amongst the literati.
Do you realise that there is a difference between gluing end grain
to side grain and gluing side grain to side grain?
nailsh...@aol.com
> Do you realise that there is a difference between gluing end grain
> to side grain and gluing side grain to side grain?
After many years of doing this for a living, yes. Check out the link,
do some quick research.
Robert
Rick Samuel
<nailsh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:91522608-1051-4301...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 6, 1:37 pm, Chris Friesen <cbf...@mail.usask.ca> wrote:
>
>> You don't need either...just glue should be fine.
>
> True enough.
>
>> You can certainly use
>> biscuits for alignment, but they don't help at all as far as strength of
>> the joint.
>
> NOT true at all. This seems to be a widely quoted myth parroted
> around here amongst the literati.
>
> One minute of research will get EMPIRICAL research to show
> differently.
> You can get started here:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/6qjcu9
>
>
biscuits, not three. pieces were 2X4, about 15' long. Set 48 hours with
Titebone #2. I was surprised how easily they (biscuits) broke, 1/2 in each
piece of 2x4. Did not use a scale to measure force. Nothing failed but the
biscuits. I asked the question about the difference between Lamello and PC
here about a year ago. That was not answered, but got all kinds of reasons
it failed. None applicable. After that, biscuits were for alignment, the
added strength was secondary.
I still would like to know if there is a diff between Lamello and PC
biscuits.
Swingman
<nailsh...@aol.com> wrote
> On Aug 6, 1:37 pm, Chris Friesen <cbf...@mail.usask.ca> wrote:
>
> > You don't need either...just glue should be fine.
>
> True enough.
>
> > You can certainly use
> > biscuits for alignment, but they don't help at all as far as strength of
> > the joint.
>
> NOT true at all. This seems to be a widely quoted myth parroted
> around here amongst the literati.
>
> One minute of research will get EMPIRICAL research to show
> differently.
> You can get started here:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/6qjcu9
> But to dismiss it out of hand as being useless is absurd.
Absolutely agree! ... to suggest that properly applied biscuit joinery adds
no strength whatsoever to the joint under question defies reason, logic,
personal practical experience, and more than one published testing.
There seems to be a proliferation of journalist woodworkers spouting these
"truisms" that are more former than latter.
I'll say it again: You gotta love the "wired world" ... the more "facts"
available from which to draw wrong conclusions, the more wrong conclusions
there are available as "facts".
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Leon
>
>> You don't need either...just glue should be fine.
>
> True enough.
>
>> You can certainly use
>> biscuits for alignment, but they don't help at all as far as strength of
>> the joint.
>
> NOT true at all. This seems to be a widely quoted myth parroted
> around here amongst the literati.
Agreed, biscuits add considerable strength to butt joints, and miter joints.
Today Domino's work even better. ;~)
Chef Juke
Richard,
I am not sure how your test disproved the data when your test was not
the same (2 vs three busuits) and you did not do a comparison with a
non-biscuit joint to compare amount of pressure required to break the
joint.
Of course none of that would change the fact that you were surprised
at how easy the joint broke, but just pointing out that it was not
"the same" test and not neccesarily conclusive.
-Chef Juke
"EVERYbody Eats when they come to MY house!"
http://www.chefjuke.com
J. Clarke
Besides that with a 15-foot moment arm he could have broken _any_
rigid joint between 2 2x4s joined 90 degrees without much effort.
The biscuits broke, he said. If it had been a mortise and tenon the
tenon would have broken. "Stronger than a butt joint" doesn't mean
"infinitely strong".
> -Chef Juke
> "EVERYbody Eats when they come to MY house!"
> http://www.chefjuke.com
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Chris Friesen
> <nailsh...@aol.com> wrote
>>But to dismiss it out of hand as being useless is absurd.
>
>
> Absolutely agree! ... to suggest that properly applied biscuit joinery adds
> no strength whatsoever to the joint under question defies reason, logic,
> personal practical experience, and more than one published testing.
Huh? The original poster is edge-gluing long grain to long grain to
make a panel. The glue alone is at least as strong as the wood. How
would biscuits possibly make the joint any stronger?
Chris
Chris Friesen
>>You can certainly use
>>biscuits for alignment, but they don't help at all as far as strength of
>>the joint.
>
>
> NOT true at all. This seems to be a widely quoted myth parroted
> around here amongst the literati.
>
> One minute of research will get EMPIRICAL research to show
> differently.
> You can get started here:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/6qjcu9
The original poster is edge-gluing two boards to make a panel. The
article you linked to says, "Modern adhesives can glue long or side
grain areas of wood together making a joint stronger than the wood itself."
Chris
mac davis
>NOT true at all. This seems to be a widely quoted myth parroted around here amongst the literati.
<snip tech info>
>Robert
When I got my first biscuit jointer, I did a few experiments with it... just
curious if the things were any good..
I built a couple of different size frames out of 1x4 scrap, using biscuits and
Titebond for assembly..
I let then sit for a week or so and them started flexing and bending them until
a few joints failed, and every joint that I managed to break had the wood
breaking and the biscuit still glued in place on both boards..
I have no scientific basis for the holding power, but it impressed the shit
outta me..
BTW: Robert, WTF is a literati?
>
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
mac davis
<snip>
>>Agreed, biscuits add considerable strength to butt joints, and miter joints.
>Today Domino's work even better. ;~)
Leon, it's less expensive to have YOU do the joints, and pay labor and shipping,
then buy a Domino..
Yeah, it's tool envy.. [ sigh ]
Tom Watson
<m...@davisbajasplinters.com> wrote:
>BTW: Robert, WTF is a literati?
More than one literato...
Regards, Tom.
Thos. J. Watson - Cabinetmaker
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
nailsh...@aol.com
> The original poster is edge-gluing two boards to make a panel. The
> article you linked to says, "Modern adhesives can glue long or side
> grain areas of wood together making a joint stronger than the wood itself."
Please take a moment an reread. You will see that I agree with that.
>> On Aug 6, 1:37 pm, Chris Friesen <cbf...@mail.usask.ca> wrote:
>> You don't need either...just glue should be fine.
> True enough.
The second comment was mine. I agreed with you until that point.
When I started in the trades back in the early 70's, we certainly did
not have biscuits. Yet our work did not fall apart over time.
Yellow woodworking glue was just getting easy to find around here and
we were considered heretics because we joined long pieces with <glue
only> once we got that stuff.
This was not an innovative experiment on my part. Based on the test
results he had read, the structural engineer favored by the GC I
worked for specified exact construction methods and materials for wood
beams and other wood structural components.
Personally I didn't see any difference between the yellow carpenter's
glue and the Elmer's Professional Super Strength, but that's another
topic.
Regardless, I still don't believe in <<any>> situation that biscuits
add nothing to the strength of the joint. As J.Clarke said above,
using a biscuit for joining doesn't make the joint infinitely
stronger.
And again, if you read just that one article I linked and take a few
moments to read even more, I think you will be surprised just how
strong those little devils are >>when properly applied<<.
Robert
Chris Friesen
>>The original poster is edge-gluing two boards to make a panel. The
>>article you linked to says, "Modern adhesives can glue long or side
>>grain areas of wood together making a joint stronger than the wood itself."
>
>
> Please take a moment an reread. You will see that I agree with that.
> Regardless, I still don't believe in <<any>> situation that biscuits
> add nothing to the strength of the joint. As J.Clarke said above,
> using a biscuit for joining doesn't make the joint infinitely
> stronger.
>
> And again, if you read just that one article I linked and take a few
> moments to read even more, I think you will be surprised just how
> strong those little devils are >>when properly applied<<.
Oh, I've got nothing against biscuits. My roll around drill press
cabinet is made of MDF and biscuits...no screws.
My point was simply that in the context of a panel glue-up, if you've
already got a joint that is "stronger than the wood itself", then the
biscuits can't buy you any useful additional strength. If the panel is
stressed hard enough that something breaks, it won't break at the glue
line. Biscuits won't change that.
Chris
Swingman
"Chris Friesen" wrote
> My point was simply that in the context of a panel glue-up, if you've
> already got a joint that is "stronger than the wood itself", then the
> biscuits can't buy you any useful additional strength.
Other than your sudden introduction of the phrase "useful additional
strength" (which proves you really didn't believe your original contention
that none whatsoever is added. ;)), let's see some proof of your contention
that ALL glue joints of this type will be "stronger than the wood itself"
... or have you simply not yet experienced joint failure?
It's safe to say that, in joinery, a lot of small strengths add up to
contribute to total "joint strength.
To declare, unequivocably, that there are NO corcumstance/factors (including
the obvious ones of wood type/species, moisture content, grain, defects, the
glue, its type, quality, age, application, etc.) where any added strength
from biscuits , no matter how slight, may prove to be a "useful" additive to
the ultimate strength of the joint, simply cannot be supported as a
statement of fact.
> If the panel is stressed hard enough that something breaks, it won't break
at the glue
> line. Biscuits won't change that.
Fine ... then let's see some emprical evidence/test results that
verify/prove these exceedingly broad, all encompassing statements.
Leon
"mac davis" <m...@davisbajasplinters.com> wrote in message
news:hv5m94pbnmjea1q5v...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 07:37:13 -0500, "Leon" <removespa...@swbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>>Agreed, biscuits add considerable strength to butt joints, and miter
>>>joints.
>>Today Domino's work even better. ;~)
>
> Leon, it's less expensive to have YOU do the joints, and pay labor and
> shipping,
> then buy a Domino..
> Yeah, it's tool envy.. [ sigh ]
;~), boy that Domino saved me lot's of time on my last job. I think I put
in about 28 loose tennons on just the legs on the walnut desk. Throw in
probably 54 for the top and shelves for aligning the pieces of wood and
another 28 for the shelf skirts. Biscuits would have worked on the top and
shelf panels but it would have been over 100 mortises done on the mortiser
for the shelf and leg skirts. On this job alone the Domino probably saved
me 1 full day of work and that is about 1/3 the cost of the Domino.
Leon
>
> BTW: Robert, WTF is a literati?
Ain't that plural for literature? Hippopotamus, Hippopotami. LOL
Arthur2
"Arthur2" <pan...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:P7idnayLva2...@bt.com...
Thanks very much for all advice.
Arthur
nailsh...@aol.com
> When I got my first biscuit jointer, I did a few experiments with it... just
> curious if the things were any good..
Somewhere back here in the archives I put on the data on my home
tests. Like you, I had to see. I had been using my biscuit machine
for a while, and liked it a lot, but in all honesty never battle
tested the joints I made using them. I read some of the opinions that
started cropping up on Woodweb, Woodworkers forum, Sawmill, etc, a few
years ago (amazing how many copy and paste from forum to forum) about
the lack of integrity of a biscuit joint.
I was using my BJ in my business, and got a little shaky in using it.
I sure didn't want to go back to dowels for connectors. But the bane
of any service business has to be warranty. I couldn't stand the
thought of a lawyer's bookcase (remember when we all had to build
those damn things?), built in cabs, or anything else failing.
As time went on, more and more piling on came about with the "biscuits
are useless" tribe. Based on nothing except what they had heard on
another forum, it was one of the more well traveled stories of the
internet. I finally got nervous enough (and biscuits are SOOOO cheap)
that I had to do some testing of my own.
I edge glued 2x12 pine from left over shelving together. One test
group had no biscuits, the other had biscuits every 4 inches. I let
them dry, and place the them parallel to my sawhorses with the long
edges riding on the sawhorses and the joint in the middle. I stacked
weight on them until they broke.
True enough, neither broke at the glue joint, but the un-biscuited
joint failed with significantly more weight on it. I could only guess
that it was because (from observation) the one without the biscuits
flexed more than the other when under stress. I only did that one
test and seeing how strong the biscuit joint was, I was relieved. I
wanted to try it with hardwood, but that stuff is now and always has
been gold around here.
So... since filling 4d nail holes in the stiles of cabinets are always
a pain, and sometimes obvious after finishing, I decided to glue
stiles on with and without biscuits on test piece of cabinet plywood
to mock up a carcass. When pulling the 1X2 away from edge of the
plywood, there was <significantly> better hold with the biscuits. But
the biscuits pulled out hunks of plywood after a pry bar was used. I
was happy knowing that my clients would never take a pry bar to the
cabinets.
But where the biscuits on plywood really did their stuff was when I
try to shear off the 1X2 in a motion that was perpendicular to the
plywood. Now good sir, that was some real holding power. Hercules
would have had a good time with that.
My test results were like yours. Properly glued, properly set, etc.,
I was actually surprised. Then (sure wish I had it now!) I ran across
a university study that compared modern joining methods. If you want
to see a kick ass joint that will hold up well past any expectations,
double or triple the biscuits. Wow. They tried biscuits v. dowels,
biscuits v. mortise and tenon (like the link I posted) and some
others. It was obvious that the biscuit joiner had great value.
Triple biscuit that 2X4 test miter you did and try to tear them apart
after drying. Then you will see how much holding power those little
bastards have. This is also amply shown in one of the graphics on the
supplied link.
But I think it is important to remember, like today's Domino, the BJ
came about to allow a woodworker (probably a professional since they
started making them in the 30's or 40's in Europe for the furniture
industry) to make fast, accurate joints. The joints made with this
machine were not made to replace a welder, 10" lag screws in 8x8
posts, or other types of joining methods.
To me, the beauty of the biscuit joiner is that it takes no time to
master and it makes accurate, repeatable and durable joinery fast and
easy to do. I have literally never had a biscuit joint fail. If they
did, I didn't know about it.
That includes edge gluing as well. I don't believe that something
that works as well as it does with so little hassle for certain joints
doesn't bring >>anything<< to the project except alignment reference
points.
But I was worried enough to spend a few off hours testing for my own
satisfaction. I have never heard of most of these 0.03 a word
computer jockeys that write these contributing pieces and simply don't
trust most of what I read in their respective bird cage protectants.
Besides, when I had to lab test my biscuit joiner I had been using it
for about 3 years or so and had just bought another 1000 biscuits!
I was almost convinced I had purchased a boat anchor and didn't know
it.
It isn't the end all machine for all joining, but it has served me
very well. I don't actually use it that much, but it serves me well
when I do. It has proven to be 100% reliable.
> I have no scientific basis for the holding power, but it impressed the shit
> outta me..
Good for you for wood shedding that product, though! How many have
actually done that? Probably most don't have any idea what any of
their tools are actually capable (or incapable) of doing...
> BTW: Robert, WTF is a literati?
Well, I like Tom's answer better. Heh, heh... literato.
Anyway, to me a the literati are the folks that think they are "in the
know", the folks that have read mountains of information on a subject
or two and deem themselves "experts" of sorts. In the case of those I
was referring to, rarely do those "in the know" have much hands on
experience, nor do they have any practical usage time to support their
opinion.
Yet they will argue endlessly to defend their point of view simply
because they know no better. But being well read on a subject, they
feel like they know a lot about it, so therefore they are an expert.
This applies to just about any subject, BTW.
In this case, I would wonder how many of the folks that have repeated
over and over that biscuits are just alignment tools have actually
used one for anything more than a weekend bookcase or coffee table.
Every time I see the alignment tool myth start up, I think of Homer J.
Simpson.
(Think of a whining voice) "Ohhhh.... but Marge, it HAS to be
true.... I read it on the internet!"
Robert
Chris Friesen
> In this case, I would wonder how many of the folks that have repeated
> over and over that biscuits are just alignment tools have actually
> used one for anything more than a weekend bookcase or coffee table.
In the specific context of panel glue-ups, (or even face frame to
cabinet joints) do you think that biscuits are more than alignment tools?
I'm no expert, but from everything I've read and researched, glue alone
should be plenty strong in both of those cases.
For miter joints, edge-to-face, end-to-face, end-to-end, etc. I fully
agree that biscuits can add significant strength as compared to glue alone.
Chris
Swingman
> In the specific context of panel glue-ups, (or even face frame to
> cabinet joints) do you think that biscuits are more than alignment tools?
Depends ... not "one size fits all" situations.
>
> I'm no expert, but from everything I've read and researched, glue alone
> should be plenty strong in both of those cases.
No question about that ... it is most often _all_ you need ... if that is
all you're after.
> For miter joints, edge-to-face, end-to-face, end-to-end, etc. I fully
> agree that biscuits can add significant strength as compared to glue
alone.
Do the following with regard to edge to edge panel gluing:
1. Lay out your panel boards side by side, with no biscuits and no glue on
the edges.
Now try and pick up all boards at the same time and notice, other than
friction, and for all practical purposes, there is no "joint strength"
whatsoever.
2. Lay out your panel boards side by side, with biscuits, but no glue on
either the biscuits or the board edges.
Now try and pick up all boards at the same time and notice that adding the
friction attributable to the glueless biscuits in their slots has added a
small, but measurable amount of "joint strength" over 1 above, particularly
in shear strength, which is one of the ideal components in a joint of this
type.
3. Lay out your panel boards side by side, this time with biscuits properly
glued in, but no glue on the board edges.
Now try and pick up all boards at the same time and notice, after sufficient
clamping/drying, a relatively significant amount of increase in "joint
strength" over 1 and 2 above.
4. Lay out your panel boards side by side, with biscuits properly glued in,
and with glue properly applied to the edges. After sufficient
clamping/drying, measure the joint strength.
Now tell me, with a straight face and clear conscience, that steps 2 and 3
added NOTHING in strength whatsoever to the final "joint strength" in 4!
:)
Granted, you may not need it, but it won't hurt and it just may be there
when you do (and easy/cheap insurance for those who prefer a belt and
suspenders approach for posterities sake).
That said, there are other reasons for adding biscuits to a panel glue-up,
other than "alignment" and the arguable possibility of added "joint
strength":
Joint "creep" .. which, IME, is particularly noticeable in wood cut off the
log in a manner that much of the dimensional instability is reflected in
movement in thickness (as you often experience in quarter sawn woods),
instead of across the grain width.
IME, there is a noticeable decrease, over time, in the effects of this
phenomena when using biscuits in panel glue-ups.
YMMV ...
Lew Hodgett
"Swingman" wrote:
<snip lab experiment description>
It wears me out just reading the instructions, much less perform the
experiments<G>
Lew
Swingman
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
No pain, no gain. :)
Tom Watson
<cbf...@mail.usask.ca> wrote:
>My point was simply that in the context of a panel glue-up, if you've
>already got a joint that is "stronger than the wood itself", then the
>biscuits can't buy you any useful additional strength. If the panel is
>stressed hard enough that something breaks, it won't break at the glue
>line. Biscuits won't change that.
>
>Chris
let me ask you a question, Chris.
In all the tests that I have seen, although it is true that the glue
line does not break, the break is always near the glue line. It does
not appear to be the case that the break is in another part of the
panel that is away from the glue line.
What's up with that?
Robatoy
> Hi all.
> For my exterior door frame project....
> I will be butting together two lengths of sapele/mahog.
> The individual pieces are about 22mm x 140mm and 1040cm long...and joining
> them on the long edges to make 260mm wide panels.
> Should I buy a jointing router bit or can I get away with using biscuits.
> Once they are joined i will be fielding them.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Arthur
There you go, Arthur. You now have the answer.
I would like to add, that cheapo biscuits often have random grain
orientation as opposed to a diagonal to the oval shape, like 'select'
biscuits such as the Lamellos.
If a biscuit breaks along its length in your application, it would add
less strength than if it was inclined to break on the diagonal. The
change of grain direction along the stress line, adds strength....
assuming that the biscuit was installed properly, i.e. the slot
(pocket) wasn't unnecessarily big. You want to take away as little of
the original material as possible without running into a hydro-locking
condition.
I have used thousands upon thousands of biscuits and conducted many
tests and read/archived many such tests. The DO add strength to a
joint, and in certain properly executed applications, can get close in
performance to a floating tenon.
The drawback, of course, is that when you use biscuits to make a
panel, you can see the telegraphed shape of the biscuit after you sand
and finish the panel.
r->Zebco 6, 4' graphite ultra-light.
dpb
...
> let me ask you a question, Chris.
>
> In all the tests that I have seen, although it is true that the glue
> line does not break, the break is always near the glue line. It does
> not appear to be the case that the break is in another part of the
> panel that is away from the glue line.
>
> What's up with that?
...
Every test I've seen the two pieces are the same width so the joint is
in the middle. When the board is loaded and supported on the edges, the
point of highest stress is then in the middle; hence unless there is a
weak point farther towards one edge or another, the most likely place
for the failure is near the point of highest stress, the middle.
Since as noted, the glue joint actually is generally as strong as or
stronger than the material, typically it is slightly to one side or the
other of the joint where the break occurs.
Simply physics of the test geometry is the basic explanation... :)
The more interesting test that is illuminating is the one of the bridle
joint joint loaded perpendicularly to the grain on one piece -- even
there it is typically either the wood that breaks or a combination
rather than a glue-line failure for well machined joints.
--
--
Tom Watson
Please note the concepts of grain direction and the relieved
shoulders.
"This history on the development of the plate joiner system was
originally posted to rec.woodworking on February 12, 1988 in response
to a discussion comparing the strength of biscuits to dowels. The
author is Sherman Whipple, who has graciously allowed the
republication of his exposition on the development of the plate joiner
system.
There is an elderly gentleman by the name of Herman Stiener who lives
in Switzerland. He would probably get the greatest kick from reading
all the threads about biscuits vs. dowels, tenons, etc. You see it was
Herman Steiner who started this whole thread back in 1955, two years
before there even was an Internet and after 43 years, it is still
going on; he's the guy who invented the things.
He also adapted a right-angle grinder to invent the first gadget to
index the slots, as well. He also made a neat clamping system, defect
patcher, and quite a number of other woodworking devices and
techniques. Mr. Steiner was by profession an engineer, and from what I
have been told was quite good at it. Cabinetmaking for him, as for
most of us, was just a hobby. He invented it in his home workshop.
The design of the joining plate and the secret of its strength are
based upon very sound engineering. For example, wood's greatest
strength is against the bias. We all know it is weakest with the
grain, but most of us assume that it would be strongest across the
grain: wrong. It is strongest with the grain angled 45 degrees and
beech is one of the strongest in this orientation. One would also
imagine that a rectangular plate would add greater strength than the
football shape. In dealing with wood, however, if the base of the slot
were square, as in a long spline with the grain, the wood would be
weakened. The elliptical slots prevent splitting. Basically the design
of the plate provides the maximum spreading of the load and a better
glue surface. The addition of the compression and swelling properties
and the tread pattern to open the wood fibers all came later.
It is my understanding that when Herman began to share his invention
he was met with considerable disbelief from the local cabinetmakers.
To prove it, he would have them make a couple of simple "T" joints.
One with the technique they thought would be strongest and one with
his "lamellae" which means thin plate. After the glue had set he would
challenge them to break the joint. Every time, the plates won the
challenge. Every cabinetmaker became a customer and he started a
business to make plates called Steiner Lamello. Soon after he
introduced the indexing base and then the first dedicated
plate-joining machine.
The first Lamello machines did not begin to appear in the US until the
mid-to- late 1960's, but it was not until about 1977 that they started
to see wide acceptance. This was mostly in industrial applications.
The rest of course, is history. We don't know who invented the wheel,
or figured out how to cut the first dovetail, but we do know who made
the joining plate, biscuit, lemon spline, or Lamello. It was a guy
just like us by the name of Herman Steiner.
Sherman Whipple
Whipple, Sargent & Associates Strategic Services
37 Derby Street, Suite 7B Hingham, MA 02043
Phone: 781-740-4025 Fax: 781-749-9474
E-Mail: she...@whipplesargent.com
For more information about biscuit joinery see:
http://www.ameritech.net/users/hankm/wme.htm"
nailsh...@aol.com
> In all the tests that I have seen, although it is true that the glue
> line does not break, the break is always near the glue line. It does
> not appear to be the case that the break is in another part of the
> panel that is away from the glue line.
>
> What's up with that?
Somewhere in this thread, are my personal results from just such a
hypothesis that was put to experiment.
My personal results completely agree with the tests you have seen. I
am no engineer so I have no great, informed answer. All I know is
them's the facts, and that's good enough for me.
Robert
Tom Watson
Tomorrow I'm going to glue up a panel like I would use for a raised
panel door.
I'll let it set up for a day or so and then apply force to the center
of the entire panel, which will not be the same as applying a force to
a single glue line.
I'll be interested to see what happens.
Tom Watson
My suspicion is that the very act of gluing creates a weakness in the
wood fibers close to the glue line.
It's like a woodworking application of the uncertainty principle.
Tom Watson
wrote:
>
>It's like a woodworking application of the uncertainty principle.
Please do not respond to me with posts that explain the workings of
the actual uncertainty principle.
It was an attempt at humorous analogy.
nailsh...@aol.com
> A little ancient history from our own resources.
SNIP of great stuff
> Regards, Tom.
I don't know how or where you found that or if you took the time to
type it from your archives, but thanks for posting that piece.
Neat stuff.
Robert
Tom Watson
>I don't know how or where you found that or if you took the time to
>type it from your archives, but thanks for posting that piece.
>
>Neat stuff.
>
I did a search for "lemon splines" which was the old name for
biscuits.
When I was a young fella a lemon splined joint in the corners of the
door casing was taken as a mark of quality, and also an indication
that the trim had been run up in a cabinet / millwork shop prior to
its arrival onsite.
dpb
> On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:38:33 -0400, Tom Watson <no...@erehwon.com>
> wrote:
>> It's like a woodworking application of the uncertainty principle.
>
>
> Please do not respond to me with posts that explain the workings of
> the actual uncertainty principle.
>
> It was an attempt at humorous analogy.
:)
Being a nuclear engineer/physicist by training, I'll refrain (w/
difficulty)... <vbg>
The actual is owing to the general test layout and the physics of plate
bending as noted in an earlier thread. If the material were actually
entirely uniform as we all know wood isn't, the bending stresses would
be perfectly symmetric and a solid piece of the same dimensions would
bend then break right down the middle.
There's a small effect at the edge owing to the discontinuity of the
fibers across the joint but w/ reasonably straight-grained wood it's a
secondary issue. The glue joint is, in fact, stronger than the breaking
strength and which side the test sample breaks upon depends on which
board has the weaker point flaw assuming even loading.
If you look at some of the web sides that have the "sagulator"
calculators for beam loading, some of them also have stress/strain
curves associated with them for various loading patterns. For
simply-supported ends and point load in the middle, the bending moment
diagram is linear from the endpoints to the middle, then decreases in
the other direction to zero again at the other edge. Something like
Load
|
\|/
------------- Beam/panel
\ / -- 0 (zero bending moment)
\ /
\ /
\ /
\ /
\ / ------ M (max bending moment)
--
nailsh...@aol.com
SNIP of the second Manhattan project
> Now tell me, with a straight face and clear conscience, that steps 2 and 3
> added NOTHING in strength whatsoever to the final "joint strength" in 4!
>
> :)
Hell, I'm tuned in. Chris, you're surrounded!!
;^)
All in good fun sir, but with a lot of good info attached.
> Granted, you may not need it, but it won't hurt and it just may be there
> when you do (and easy/cheap insurance for those who prefer a belt and
> suspenders approach for posterities sake).
Well, that would be me. I am not as bad as I used to be, but I think
somewhere in my old German bloodline there must have been some
woodworker that was convinced it was only worthwhile to build things
for the ages.
After I started paying for all the extra fasteners, glue, materials
and time on the project to get it "right", I decided to trust some of
the old ways. Not completely, though.
> IME, there is a noticeable decrease, over time, in the effects of this
> phenomena when using biscuits in panel glue-ups.
I can't quantify how much, but it seems that way to me as well. I
have built display cases (hey... who could afford a 1X24 piece of
black walnut?) that were constructed in different styles. One guy
that still has his where I can see him when I go to his office only
has one tiny line that raises about a thousandth or so when they keep
the building closed up for a holiday with the AC turned to 82.
When it is in the AC at 73 (the normal temp) it moves back into
place.
Earlier efforts that are in the hands of family don't necessarily fare
as well. I made a coffee table from edge glued 1X6s from soft pine
and it held up well for a few years. Yet continued use caused the
joints to fail. Not completely, but they did open up.
Subsequent efforts to make country style coffee/tea cabinets to pay
for gas when I was struggling as a carpenter worked better than no
other support. I would cut down a piece of wood to 3/4" X 1" (saw
this on a piece of furniture at an antique show) and lay them
perpendicular to the edge glued wood and glue them on, nailing with a
million 4ds.
My sister has one of those cabinets left, and it doesn't move at all.
But it was a lot of work for longer layups. I HATED doweling edges as
even with my cute little gizmo I couldn't get every single dowel to
line up perfectly.
I tried the biscuit joiner after a friend of mine that built furniture
got a Lamello and loved it. Next project I needed to do a big glue up
on, I used it and have found a lot of uses for it since.
Robert
Tom Watson
I am mindful of your explication.
My point, and I would say, my premise, is that the act of gluing
introduces some deterioration to the fibers along the line.
The test that I have planned should be interesting in either proving
it out to a degree that it becomes a theory, or putting the idea to
bed.
I would be disinclined to bring Heisenberg into this discussion beyond
saying that every time that I would try to look at my experiment the
parameters would change - and that would piss me off.
Tom Watson
>On Aug 7, 6:33 pm, "Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> Granted, you may not need it, but it won't hurt and it just may be there
>> when you do (and easy/cheap insurance for those who prefer a belt and
>> suspenders approach for posterities sake).
>
>Well, that would be me. I am not as bad as I used to be, but I think
>somewhere in my old German bloodline there must have been some
>woodworker that was convinced it was only worthwhile to build things
>for the ages.
>
Fucking A !
My great grandfather Hans (cabinetmaker) would disown me from the
other side if he thought that I was starting to act like a modern
engineer.
Tradesmen have traditionally built for the ages. In the old days of
the three to one ratio we still had engineers who did the same.
The shabby concept of 'value engineering', which is almost always run
by the accounting department, rather than the engineers, has given us
the idea of planned obsolescence in the guise of predicted failure
rates.
How often have you wondered at how a piece can fail one month after
the warranty is over. It is perfect engineering, according to its
lights.
That's not what I do for my customers and it isn't what any of the
people I respect do, either.
Swingman
<nailsh...@aol.com> wrote in message
> I tried the biscuit joiner after a friend of mine that built furniture
> got a Lamello and loved it. Next project I needed to do a big glue up
> on, I used it and have found a lot of uses for it since.
I was a latecomer to the use of plate joinery, and the upshot of it is that,
a few years back, one of the folks who was personally instrumental in
convincing me of their worth was ... none other than Tom Watson himself. :)
I had been using splines only to reinforce miter joints and Tom convinced me
that biscuits were quite acceptable for the task. I've been thankful for
that advice every since.
I'm sure it's in the archives somewhere.
dpb
...
> My point, and I would say, my premise, is that the act of gluing
> introduces some deterioration to the fibers along the line.
I don't follow that line of thought at all -- why would any
_deterioration_ cause a failure away from the glue line? And what
mechanism is supposedly at work doing this?
I think your proposed test (iiuc) will simply again demonstrate the
point of maximum stress is in the middle of the panel and the variation
in wood properties will make for a moderate difference in actual
breaking point from one side to the other a la Heisenberg...
--
Tom Watson
It seems to be the case in all of the experiments available on the
Internet that the premise, "stronger than the wood itself", means that
the tester accepted the fact that the wood failed, not on the
glueline, but in an area adjacent to the glueline. The test panels
all had a single glue line and the force was applied to the center of
the panel / glueline.
In the real world what we worry about is that there will be wracking
forces around the perimeter of the panel where it is enclosed by the
frame.
I would propose to create two series of three test panels that have
four glue lines / joints in them. Two glue lines will use biscuits
and two will be rubbed and butted. The panel will then be clamped and
allowed to sit overnight.
The critical difference in this test will be that the force is applied
to the center of the panel and that no joint will be any closer than
two inches from the centerline of the application of force. In other
words. the force will be applied to undisturbed wood, rather than
directly on the glue line.
The second test will apply stress to the edges of the panels,
mimicking the forces of a wracking panel against an unyielding frame.
Now, I only have a bathroom scale available to measure the force but
that should be enough to prove the thesis, or not.
nailsh...@aol.com
> How often have you wondered at how a piece can fail one month after
> the warranty is over. It is perfect engineering, according to its
> lights.
Honestly, I have never, ever wondered how to cut things that close.
Never had any interest in that kind of horsecrap, and don't want to
learn. I am not interested in cutting "that fine line" of cost v.
utility.
I don't like any kind of warranty work, and I am pissed off if I get a
warranty call on any aspect of our work.
If it is for work I personally did, I am in disbelief. I have a great
track record because I take the extra steps, and if I need to spend a
little more time and effort to get the job I want for the client, I
will spend it out of my own pocket if I have to. Not my first
preference to pay extras myself, but I just hate sub par work. I hate
warranty calls (embarrassing and costly) more than just about any
aspect of business, just behind my taxes.
I am known to tell my clients "well.... I know what you are saying,
but I am find this hard to believe. Why don't I slip by a little
later and I'll look at the XXXX together?" I am better than I used to
be (mellowed?) and don't get indignant right off the bat.
I know for many here this is something they have heard as much as I
did when I was starting out: Do it right the first time and forget
about it. Go on to the next project.
This hits on Swing's point. Why not? Why not take the extra few
minutes to be dead bang 110% sure of your work? It makes me proud and
confident to know that I did a good job.
It is good to be the guy on the phone with a little disbelief in your
voice when someone tells you there is a problem with your work. It's
better to be able to back up your disbelief when you see what the
"problem" is when you see it.
Before anyone starts in here, I am not saying I am perfect and not
every single job gets my undying effort. But my goal is to make my
work is as good as I can make it (within reason) before I turn it
over. I make sure my client gets 110% of what they pay for.
Belt and suspenders? Yup, that's me.
Robert
Tom Watson
Absolutely five by five on that with you, brother.
It should never be any other way.
nailsh...@aol.com
> The drawback, of course, is that when you use biscuits to make a
> panel, you can see the telegraphed shape of the biscuit after you sand
> and finish the panel.
No kidding... I haven't had that happen but once. Are you seeing this
on a particular kind of wood or some size of glue up?
I know there are those that have this problem all the time, but I also
know that you undoubtedly buy the good biscuits and are careful (as
you cautioned above) about the installation technique.
I may not have this problem because 1) I am lucky! or 2) I dry fit the
biscuits before I put them in the glue. If they don't slip in and out
with just a little friction, they don't get used.
I only use the PC biscuits (I see you use Lamello) and quit using the
"bag o' biscuits" when a great deal of them didn't fit right, weren't
shipped properly (sealed containers) and they were crumbly.
Remember when companies like PC had actual, live tool reps, not 23
year old guys with degrees in marketing that simply filled out
customer orders?
I went to a "PC Days" thing they had at Woodcraft many, many years ago
and he told me their were three things that screwed up biscuit joinery
(certainly not saying here that you are doing any of these!):
- Folks don't use enough biscuits (at 0.03 a whack, that one made me
LMAO)
- They don't get the depth right (addressed by you)
- And they don't store the biscuits properly
According to the guy, the reason sPC went to the little clear bottles
was to cut down on breakage, but more importantly keep the moisture
out of the biscuits. Swelling of the biscuits was a known problem and
PC apparently got a ton of them back as returns.
His opinion was that if you have to tap a biscuit in, it is too
tight. He swore that tight biscuits (don't even go there,
buddy... ;^) ) were the problem that caused their shape to be
reflected through the wood due to their expansion when hit with the
glue.
Your thoughts?
Robert
Scott Lurndal
Maybe if he glued three panels, and performed the same test. If it
breaks in the center of the center panel, the glue had nothing to do
with it.
scott
Swingman
<nailsh...@aol.com> wrote
On the other foot, I periodically go through "3rd party inspections" prior
to closing on houses we build. While I welcome them for the most part, I
still find it about as _personal_ as a term final/paper in college, where no
matter what you did good going in, the results of the one shot deal, and for
all the world to see, is all that counts.
Sad thing is that most of the inspectors know less about good building
practices than I do, but _I_ must still defend/justify every "issue" they
come up with, right or wrong ( and all too often these days, the latter ...
you won't believe some of the crap these "licensed professionals" are
capable of) ... IOW, it ends up being a matter of personal pride and damn
hard not to take it any other way.
If I could build a house by myself, the way I work in my own shop, fine ...
but you can only "supervise" so much and the culture that builds today
doesn't give a warm bucket of spit about pride of workmanship, meaning you
constantly have to accept things you personally cringe at to get anything
accomplished ... to do otherwise is financial suicide, won't help you, your
family, your kid in college, or even the folks buying the product (who,
these days, mostly don't know the difference, or even give a shit).
About the only relief I get from this constant barrage of crappy workmanship
is in _my_ shop, on _my_ projects, where I have control over the amount of
"pride of workmanship" that goes into it.
Which is one reason why I have such a great deal of respect for guys like
Leon and Tom, who have reached a level where they can carefully pick and
choose jobs where the exercise of that option is a given.
One of these days ...
Tom Watson
Not to jump in but let's remember that a properly conceived biscuit is
cut in section more or less at the point between quartersawn and
plainsawn.
The natural expansion properties of such a biscuit make it expand in a
predictable manner that does not transmit the expansion line to the
face, if the face is more than 2X away from the thickness of the
biscuit, which it should always be. This holds true for both
laminated and solid goods.
Where I have seen bumps in the joint line they have invariably been
the result of positioning of the biscuit too close to the face, or to
using poor quality biscuits.
I use an antique Lamello Top 10 and always use the Lamello plates. I
bought a couple of tubes of the PC variety and found that they did not
mike out to a consistent thickness. I also found that too many of the
plates were flatsawn, or close to flatsawn, and that made them
unacceptable.
I keep my unused plates in a container with several SilicaGel bags
that help keep the moisture content down to less than 4%. I also
throw in a cheap hygrometer ($6.00) to make sure that moisture is not
an issue.
Your friend is right about tapping the plates in; they are no good if
they need more than a gentle push to insert them.
Lamello used to have standards on their website to let you know if the
biscuits had gone out of spec.
nailsh...@aol.com
SNIP of comments I relate to daily...
> About the only relief I get from this constant barrage of crappy workmanship
> is in _my_ shop, on _my_ projects, where I have control over the amount of
> "pride of workmanship" that goes into it.
Amen. I like to take the time to fiddle over things to make them
right. It make ME feel good.
But having had employees or being responsible for them I have given
up. I tried for years to get these guys to understand that THEY
should be their own supervisors, and that THEY should be their own
quality control.
What a fucking joke. When I would get a really good guy, I really
took care of him. But I have given up entirely on that now at this
stage of the game and try to help all my little sub contracting
buddies stay in business. They show up on time, and they also know if
they don't do it right, they won't get paid - AT ALL. Nothing.
(Yeah, yeah, before the pseudo attorneys start in, I know its against
the law to do that...)
I have a couple of really talented craftsmen that I use on a regular
basis, and they really care about their work. But the rest... they do
good work so they will get paid with no problems. I pay like a great
slot machine when things go well, but when they don't, the offenders
may catch a cumulative effect and wind up paying for the bad work of
others as well as their own.
> Which is one reason why I have such a great deal of respect for guys like
> Leon and Tom, who have reached a level where they can carefully pick and
> choose jobs where the exercise of that option is a given.
Me, too.
> One of these days ...
I'm paddling behind you Karl with that hope, but I have to tell you,
I'm gettin' powerful tired...
Robert
Tom Watson
>On the other foot, I periodically go through "3rd party inspections" prior
>to closing on houses we build. While I welcome them for the most part, I
>still find it about as _personal_ as a term final/paper in college, where no
>matter what you did good going in, the results of the one shot deal, and for
>all the world to see, is all that counts.
I actually liken it to a prostate exam - done by a retired plumber.
>
>Sad thing is that most of the inspectors know less about good building
>practices than I do, but _I_ must still defend/justify every "issue" they
>come up with, right or wrong ( and all too often these days, the latter ...
>you won't believe some of the crap these "licensed professionals" are
>capable of) ... IOW, it ends up being a matter of personal pride and damn
>hard not to take it any other way.
It used to be the case around here that when builders (carpenters)
retired they would go into the inspection game. That worked pretty
well and I learned a lot from those old boys when I was growing up.
Nowadays we get pissants who have studied up the UBC and think they
know jackshit about building. They ain't worth a damn.
What's funny is, we have about four townships around here that I work
in on a regular basis. Most of the inspectors I know by name and
sight. I also know that each of them have certain hardons. One guy
is a killer on the height between the first stair tread and the
ceiling line that is vertical to it. Another guy is all about
firestops (volunteer fireman). A third just wants to make sure that
all the air passages have been sealed (anal retentive). The last guy
is a shooting buddy of mine and just wishes that accountants would not
try to design buildings.
>
>If I could build a house by myself, the way I work in my own shop, fine ...
>but you can only "supervise" so much and the culture that builds today
>doesn't give a warm bucket of spit about pride of workmanship, meaning you
>constantly have to accept things you personally cringe at to get anything
>accomplished ... to do otherwise is financial suicide, won't help you, your
>family, your kid in college, or even the folks buying the product (who,
>these days, mostly don't know the difference, or even give a shit).
>
>About the only relief I get from this constant barrage of crappy workmanship
>is in _my_ shop, on _my_ projects, where I have control over the amount of
>"pride of workmanship" that goes into it.
I feel your pain, brother. When we throw the system into reverse for
a minute and understand that a young man who wants to spend his life
working with his hands is not to be treated as a retard, or someone
not worthy of the same level of respect as a white collar office
drone, we will begin to have something again.
>
>Which is one reason why I have such a great deal of respect for guys like
>Leon and Tom, who have reached a level where they can carefully pick and
>choose jobs where the exercise of that option is a given.
Thank You. I appreciate being included in the same breath with Leon.
I have great respect for he and thou and wish that we could all work
together someday.
>
>One of these days ...
Regards, Tom.
Leon
"Tom Watson" <no...@erehwon.com> wrote in message
news:l04n94pm8kbq1p3gr...@4ax.com...
>
>
> let me ask you a question, Chris.
>
> In all the tests that I have seen, although it is true that the glue
> line does not break, the break is always near the glue line. It does
> not appear to be the case that the break is in another part of the
> panel that is away from the glue line.
>
> What's up with that?
Good question but I think the reason is because you are trying to break at
the glue line. If you try to break some where else, the board will probably
break at that somewhere else spot.
Leon
Geez Tom, I'm thinking it's the other way around. I think the 3 of us
working together would be like going to heaven. Imagine 3 people striving
for perfection.
nailsh...@aol.com
> Geez Tom, I'm thinking it's the other way around. I think the 3 of us
> working together would be like going to heaven. Imagine 3 people striving
> for perfection.
I remember the movie... I think it came out in the 30s sometime. I
think it was called
"The D.A. Called It Murder" or something along those lines. ;^)
No ship ever sails anywhere with 3 captains. Bet the barbecue and
whiskey portion of working together would be grand to attend, though!
Robert
Robatoy
wrote:
> On Aug 7, 11:46 pm, "Leon" <removespamlcb11...@swbell.net> wrote:
>
> > Geez Tom, I'm thinking it's the other way around. I think the 3 of us
> > working together would be like going to heaven. Imagine 3 people striving
> > for perfection.
>
> I remember the movie... I think it came out in the 30s sometime. I
> think it was called
>
> "The D.A. Called It Murder" or something along those lines. ;^)
>
> No ship ever sails anywhere with 3 captains.
Yup, a team like that would need a manager.
Swingman
"Leon" wrote
> Geez Tom, I'm thinking it's the other way around. I think the 3 of us
> working together would be like going to heaven.
Actually, I was kinda hoping I'd get to play bass with SRV ... but hell,
that would work too! :)
dpb
...
> Maybe if he glued three panels, and performed the same test. If it
> breaks in the center of the center panel, the glue had nothing to do
> with it.
The geometry is such that the bending moment is maximized at the
midpoint between the support points -- that's fact.
Anything that causes it to break in another location is either a weak
point in the material or a flaw in the joint.
That they don't (typically) break along the glue line is proof positive
the glue bond is at least as strong as the mean strength of the wood.
The test has been done both scientifically and empirically enough that
there simply isn't any doubt of the general principles in play here...
In an informal test environment the variability in the test itself will
probably negate much chance of proving anything conclusive unfortunately.
$0.02, etc., etc., ...
--
Dave in Houston
"Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:EpSdnfJ2jff-pgHV...@giganews.com...
>
> "Leon" wrote
>
>> Geez Tom, I'm thinking it's the other way around. I think the 3 of us
>> working together would be like going to heaven.
>
> Actually, I was kinda hoping I'd get to play bass with SRV ... but hell,
> that would work too! :)
Could anyone afford he three of you? /:o)
Dave in Houston
Leon
<nailsh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4f4ab66f-56f4-44ab...@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
LOL, Well I was always a manager from the age 21 but I believe much of my
success was hinged upon team work. Although I was usually the one in
charge I always enjoyed being elbow to elbow with those I worked with on a
daily basis. When everyone is on the same page things seem to fall into
place. Experience helps a lot too. ;~)
Leon
>
>> Geez Tom, I'm thinking it's the other way around. I think the 3 of us
>> working together would be like going to heaven.
>
> Actually, I was kinda hoping I'd get to play bass with SRV ... but hell,
> that would work too! :)
SRV??? I'd think playing bass with LL ranks pretty high up there. ;~)
Swingman
<nailsh...@aol.com> wrote
> But having had employees or being responsible for them I have given
> up. I tried for years to get these guys to understand that THEY
> should be their own supervisors, and that THEY should be their own
> quality control.
Don't get me started. Most of the crews that work with wood around here
aren't worth any effort on that score, but I do have a talented trim
carpenter from Guatemala that could be one of the best.
Polite, well spoken, about 28, and a good family man. When he works only for
me for a while I can actually get him to slow down, take his time and
concentrate on accuracy and the pride that goes with it, except that, with
only one or two houses going at a time, I can't keep him busy enough. So,
just about that time I get him back in the game, off he goes to another
builder and gets corrupted with the prevailing give-a-shits. When he first
came to me I taught him to how to cope inside miters, and which wall to do
it on, and forbid him to do anything else ... turn my back on the next house
and it's back to square one.
> I'm paddling behind you Karl with that hope, but I have to tell you,
> I'm gettin' powerful tired...
Yeah bubba ... I needed some variety, and may have just stumbled on some.
Just started a project up close to Austin (between Elgin and Manor), a
single story, 2000 sf, 3 BR, 2 Bath "Straw Bale Wall" house ... if that
don't frost the cake! :)
Actually, except for the walls, its got enough traditional building elements
to make me feel comfortable tackling the job (it's spec'ed with "modified
infill straw bale walls", which means the roof, and straw bale walls, are
supported by a well engineered post and beam structure). Have had to burn
the midnight oil on this type of building method, which is growing in
popularity in that part of the country.
Who knows where it will lead, but it'll be something new and fun for a
change ... I'm looking forward to it.
Leon
"Leon" <removespa...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:ICXmk.20896$N87....@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
Oh~ Stevey, I'll not help you with LL. LOL
Lee Michaels
Just keep tha livestock away from it when building! <G>
Swingman
"Lee Michaels" wrote
> Just keep tha livestock away from it when building! <G>
LOL ... you laugh! My first requirement for taking the job, since it's on a
ten acre tract, was "fence repair" on the part of the owner!
Actually, you're onto something. I understand that on some of these straw
bale houses that have been demolished after 75 years or so, the horses in
the next pasture went right to work on consuming the hay as if it had been
baled the week before.
... supposedly true.
Robatoy
So...what is it, straw or hay?
Swingman
> So...what is it, straw or hay?
Since straw bale compression from roof load is not going to be an issue due
to the 'post and beam roof' support in this particular house, apparently it
really doesn't make much difference.
From what I understand, most proponents prefer a rice straw, but locally
grown hay is also usable. There are apparently purist, as in any endeavor,
who will argue the merits of one over the other, but I will only be involved
in that decision if the client can't make it themselves ... but I have taken
steps to inform myself in case that happens.
There are apparently folks who set their baling equipment to your spec as
far as size, whether two or three wire, and the amount of compression needed
for the project, all settable parameters in modern baling equipment. I spent
my youth on a farm, baled, loaded and fed _lots_ of hay in my time, so I
have a pretty good concept of what a good bale of hay/straw should be.
Another thing about this particular engineered "infill" method is that I get
to put the roof up first ... so there will be a place to store straw/hay
prior to laying the walls in. Moisture, other than the moisture content in
the straw itself, is a problem until you get the walls sealed, which in this
case will probably be with a stucco type material on screen, just as in
traditional construction, except it will cover both interior and exterior.
Fun, hay? :)
--
Larry W
newsgroup, let alone glue up panels just to break them.
--
Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler.
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org
Dave in Houston
Large or small round bales?
Dave in Houston
Robatoy
Absolutely interesting, to say the least.
Are you planning to do any traditional (mortise, wood peg) type
joints?
What about fire code?
I'm still messing with a plan to build something functional and nice
as a wood shop, but won't consider building anything without Morris'
solar panels. I'm even thinking of taking down some shutters on each
side of the South facing windows of our house, and replacing them with
some sort of stylish solar panel. I really like my current shop and
its location, but the multiple thousands of dollars it took last year
to heat and cool the joint (mostly heating) is wearing thin real
quick.... AND it is well insulated.
There are always 'purists' to the point of making me ill. The ones
that talk about 'fresh' tofu... wtf is 'fresh' tofu?... but I
digress..
r
Lee Michaels
"Robatoy"
There are always 'purists' to the point of making me ill. The ones
that talk about 'fresh' tofu... wtf is 'fresh' tofu?... but I
digress..
---------------------
Fresh tofu is even more disgusting and slimy than regular tofu.
Glad to help.
Swingman
"Lee Michaels" wrote
And, the damn stuff just won't stay on the BBQ grill!
Swingman
"Dave in Houston" wrote
> Large or small round bales?
Good, old fashioned square bales ... the kind you threw up on the
truck/wagon by hand - and ended up with that physique the girls all admired
back then ... probably 2 wire.
nailsh...@aol.com
> > Fresh tofu is even more disgusting and slimy than regular tofu.
>
> And, the damn stuff just won't stay on the BBQ grill!
I think that makes it illegal in Texas, and probably many other states
as well!
Robert
Robatoy
> "Lee Michaels" wrote
>
>
>
> > "Robatoy"
>
> > There are always 'purists' to the point of making me ill. The ones
> > that talk about 'fresh' tofu... wtf is 'fresh' tofu?... but I
> > digress..
>
> > ---------------------
>
> > Fresh tofu is even more disgusting and slimy than regular tofu.
>
> And, the damn stuff just won't stay on the BBQ grill!
>
Suuuure it will.
You have to freeze a chunk of it. Then high heat, very quickly. Like
baked Alaska.
If you do it right, you'll a nice crispy outside and a yummy frozen
centre... ohh nummy-num-nums...
Lew Hodgett
> that talk about 'fresh' tofu... wtf is 'fresh' tofu?... but I
> digress..
Might try feeding to a cat, but never a dog<G>
Lew
Robatoy
NO dog would eat tofu... it's just not done.
Lew Hodgett
NO dog would eat tofu... it's just not done.
Isn't that what I said?
Lew
Robatoy
Yes you did, and I simply pointed out that indeed NO dog would ever
eat that, no exceptions. <G>
.
.
.
well, maybe Paris Hilton's dog might, who knows what that poor animal
has been force-fed.
Scott Lurndal
>
>"Dave in Houston" wrote
>
>> Large or small round bales?
>
>Good, old fashioned square bales ... the kind you threw up on the
>truck/wagon by hand - and ended up with that physique the girls all admired
>back then ... probably 2 wire.
>
I haven't seen a wire baler in over 40 years. Twine, yes.
scott
J. Clarke
A cat would eat it, then go yak it up in your favorite shoes or
whatever else will be the most annoying to you, and probably throw in
a couple of partially digested stinkbugs for good measure. Cats don't
get mad, they get even.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Lew Hodgett
> Cats don't
> get mad, they get even.
Cats are one of the best reasons the 12GA shotgun was invented.
Where I grew up, any cat more than 1/4 mile from a barn was shot, no
exceptions.
It was obviously was a wild animal.
No self respecting cat would leave warm milk morning and night and all
the mice it could catch.
Lew
.
J. Clarke
Geez, all those poor cats that you shot while they were off making a
booty call. Cats do not live by warm milk and mice alone.
Puckdropper at dot
news:2112dcc4-bf58-4c38...@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
>
> Absolutely interesting, to say the least.
> Are you planning to do any traditional (mortise, wood peg) type
> joints?
> What about fire code?
>
> I'm still messing with a plan to build something functional and nice
> as a wood shop, but won't consider building anything without Morris'
> solar panels. I'm even thinking of taking down some shutters on each
> side of the South facing windows of our house, and replacing them with
> some sort of stylish solar panel. I really like my current shop and
> its location, but the multiple thousands of dollars it took last year
> to heat and cool the joint (mostly heating) is wearing thin real
> quick.... AND it is well insulated.
>
> There are always 'purists' to the point of making me ill. The ones
> that talk about 'fresh' tofu... wtf is 'fresh' tofu?... but I
> digress..
>
> r
>
That solar panel idea is a good one! Sometimes the best place to hide
something is in plain sight.
And, if the electronics guys get really fancy, they could add servos and
things to the slats in the shutters and follow the sun. (REALLY fancy
and the shutters close themselves when NWS* issues a severe thunderstorm
warning.)
* or Canada's equivalent agency
Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
Rick Samuel
True, my test was NOT controlled, but a M&T joint would not be broken by
hand. The parts were 15 inches, my error. The first initial movement of
the joint is to pull the fibers apart, not to bend them. Tyr pulling a 1/8
dowel apart.
I don't see an answer to difference between Lamello and PC biscuits.
Larry W
Lew Hodgett <lewho...@verizon.net> wrote:
<...snipped...>
>Where I grew up, any cat more than 1/4 mile from a barn was shot, no
>exceptions.
>
Shortage of push sticks in that area?
--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.
mac davis
>;~), boy that Domino saved me lot's of time on my last job. I think I put
>in about 28 loose tennons on just the legs on the walnut desk. Throw in
>probably 54 for the top and shelves for aligning the pieces of wood and
>another 28 for the shelf skirts. Biscuits would have worked on the top and
>shelf panels but it would have been over 100 mortises done on the mortiser
>for the shelf and leg skirts. On this job alone the Domino probably saved
>me 1 full day of work and that is about 1/3 the cost of the Domino.
>
Well, Leon, I've never done a mortise in my life and I'm still having to remind
myself that a "loose" tenon is a GOOD thing...
I hear that expression and think "chair doctor needed here"..
Then again, I'm a turner and haven't even MET Jack..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
Upscale
> me 1 full day of work and that is about 1/3 the cost of the Domino.
Leon, just out of interest's sake have you tested the strength in a Domino
connection by purposely trying to break a stile connection off a rail? I'm
wondering what kind of strength is inherent in those Domino biscuits or what
kind of resistance was encountered before the stile split off the Domino
biscuit?
Swingman
"Upscale" wrote
> wondering what kind of strength is inherent in those Domino biscuits or
what
> kind of resistance was encountered before the stile split off the Domino
> biscuit?
Although the machine itself is a spin-off of the plate joiner design, I
would be hard pressed to classsify the Domino "loose tenons" as "biscuits".
Here is the supposed results of a relatively recent (07) "Wood" magazine
"joint strength" test of various "loose tenon" methods:
Shear Test
Mortise and tenon 1,017 pounds (461 kg)
Dowelmax 609 pounds (276 kg)
Beadlock 541 pounds (245 kg)
Domino 464 pounds (210 kg)
Biscuits 187 pounds (85 kg)
Pull-apart Test
Mortise and tenon 2,525 pounds (1,145 kg)
Dowelmax 1,866 pounds (846 kg)
Domino 1,486 pounds (674 kg)
Beadlock 1,170 pounds (530 kg)
Biscuits 766 pounds (347 kg)
That said, while it's interesting, I don't know that I'd trust this
particular rag to be the final word on anythng ...
Leon
"mac davis" <m...@davisbajasplinters.com> wrote in message
news:qeis945rtftkb4h6i...@4ax.com...
> Well, Leon, I've never done a mortise in my life and I'm still having to
> remind
> myself that a "loose" tenon is a GOOD thing...
LOL, They tighten up.
Leon
"Upscale" <ups...@teksavvy.com> wrote in message
news:245c7$489eb28b$cef88bc5$18...@TEKSAVVY.COM...
No I have not tested them however, the smallest Domino is 5mm thick, 18mm
wide, and 30 mm long. There are 4 larger sizes up to 10mm thick, 23 mm
wide, and 50 mm long. All are made of solid Beech wood.
Additionally and unlike the single thin thickness biscuits the Domino
machine can be set so that the slot is a perfect fit, thick and width wise.
This is great for indexing alignment as the machine has multiple ways to
index the location of the mortice. The following mortises can be set to be
cut a bit wider than the Domino, to ease assembly.
mac davis
>Although the machine itself is a spin-off of the plate joiner design, I
>would be hard pressed to classsify the Domino "loose tenons" as "biscuits".
Gotta go along with that... from what I've seen, they're more like an
oval-shaped dowel than a biscuit..
Leon
> On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 10:03:22 -0500, "Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>Although the machine itself is a spin-off of the plate joiner design, I
>>would be hard pressed to classsify the Domino "loose tenons" as
>>"biscuits".
>
> Gotta go along with that... from what I've seen, they're more like an
> oval-shaped dowel than a biscuit..
Actually a Domino is flat on both ends and on top and bottom only the side
edges are round with a radius half the thickness, so the round edges are
perfect half circles.
nailsh...@aol.com
> > I'm
> > wondering what kind of strength is inherent in those Domino biscuits or
> > what
> > kind of resistance was encountered before the stile split off the Domino
> > biscuit?
>
> No I have not tested them
Don't know how you can keep from getting out there and in Dr.
Frankenstein's lab and come up with some kind of home built test.
With the Domino testing so well against everything we know to use
these days in quick joining, I would have to know how it stacks up in
my little end of the world in my hands.
I would be thinking, "OK, looks good in the books, looks good on
paper. BUT, how does it really stack up in the Leon Field Trials of
Death?"
That's the kind of stuff I actually enjoy doing.
Robert
nailsh...@aol.com
> Although the machine itself is a spin-off of the plate joiner design, I
> would be hard pressed to classsify the Domino "loose tenons" as "biscuits".
I don't see how they could at all. I am surprised they didn't put the
Krieg system in there and call it a "metal rod biscuit" or some other
baloney.
> Here is the supposed results of a relatively recent (07) "Wood"
magazine
> "joint strength" test of various "loose tenon" methods:
SNIP
> That said, while it's interesting, I don't know that I'd trust this
> particular rag to be the final word on anythng ...
I think it is important to realize that in some cases these magazines
buy these tests, contract these tests, and in other situations
probably just buy the copy outright. Mssr. Self would know the
protocols on that.
But what gets me, is the way they test the machines. Once again, we
are looking for the end all, do all type machine. Where is that
machine? With a tip of the hat to the shop bound fellas that do this,
I don't really care how well it works in the quiet confines of my shop
with all the proper room, clamping equipment, and time I need to get
the machine squared away.
I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that if you tried out those tools again
in the hands of someone that drives up the the job to trim an house
and build a couple of laundry cabs or a built in clothes hamper, he
will take the Domino first, and the biscuit machine second.
As for strength of joints... great for those who want to exert several
hundred pounds of pressure on wood working efforts. How many magazine/
casual/professionals have seen enough failures of any of those systems
to be of concern.
I think too for the lowly biscuit, it is important to remember that
they only test with one biscuit in the joint. Two biscuits give a
tremendous gain in a joint, and unless it is 3/4" material, everyone I
know uses two now.
I am not a big proponent of biscuits, but until I can justify the cost
of the Domino (quit taking those damn roof repairs, Robert....) the
biscuit joiner will stay with me. I will try to remember that I have
NEVER had a joint that was joined with biscuits fail.
Who knows - since my joints don't come apart... there may NEVER be a
Domino in the future for me. I actually be more interested in the
Rotex Super MF 1000 Platinum Stealth Wood Transformer and Satellite
Tracking tool. They sell it as a "sander" (yeah - right!) down at
WoodCraft.
One day...
Robert
Leon
<nailsh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:05083eeb-b04e-4413...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Don't know how you can keep from getting out there and in Dr.
> Frankenstein's lab and come up with some kind of home built test.
> With the Domino testing so well against everything we know to use
> these days in quick joining, I would have to know how it stacks up in
> my little end of the world in my hands.
LOL, For me the Domono had the advantage of using tennons with up to 4-5
times the mass of a biscuit and cuts the mortises in a lot smaller spot
with no extra slot required as each biscuit slot does. Try using a FF
biscuit on the end of a 1" wide piece of wood. ;~)
>
> I would be thinking, "OK, looks good in the books, looks good on
> paper. BUT, how does it really stack up in the Leon Field Trials of
> Death?"
Actually I did sorta do a small experiment when I first got the Domino. I
glued 2 pieces of 3/4" MDF to gether with 2 small 5mm Domino's. The pieces
were orientated lake a rail and stile glued side edge to end edge The
mortises were side by side a couple of inches apart, not stacked. The
surface alignment was perfect and the joint was strong enough that the joint
did not fail when trying to seperate the pieces by hand. I suspect with no
tennons the 2 pieces would have seperated pretty easily if only glued edge
to edge. Biscuits no doubt would have added strength too.
IMHO biscuits are still goint to be hard to beat when joining 45 degree
mitered corners when you want to have the extra reinforcement near the outer
corner.
blueman
> On Aug 7, 8:38 pm, Tom Watson <no...@erehwon.com> wrote:
>
>> How often have you wondered at how a piece can fail one month after
>> the warranty is over. It is perfect engineering, according to its
>> lights.
>
> Honestly, I have never, ever wondered how to cut things that close.
> Never had any interest in that kind of horsecrap, and don't want to
> learn. I am not interested in cutting "that fine line" of cost v.
> utility.
>
> I don't like any kind of warranty work, and I am pissed off if I get a
> warranty call on any aspect of our work.
>
> If it is for work I personally did, I am in disbelief. I have a great
> track record because I take the extra steps, and if I need to spend a
> little more time and effort to get the job I want for the client, I
> will spend it out of my own pocket if I have to. Not my first
> preference to pay extras myself, but I just hate sub par work. I hate
> warranty calls (embarrassing and costly) more than just about any
> aspect of business, just behind my taxes.
>
> I am known to tell my clients "well.... I know what you are saying,
> but I am find this hard to believe. Why don't I slip by a little
> later and I'll look at the XXXX together?" I am better than I used to
> be (mellowed?) and don't get indignant right off the bat.
>
> I know for many here this is something they have heard as much as I
> did when I was starting out: Do it right the first time and forget
> about it. Go on to the next project.
>
> This hits on Swing's point. Why not? Why not take the extra few
> minutes to be dead bang 110% sure of your work? It makes me proud and
> confident to know that I did a good job.
>
> It is good to be the guy on the phone with a little disbelief in your
> voice when someone tells you there is a problem with your work. It's
> better to be able to back up your disbelief when you see what the
> "problem" is when you see it.
>
> Before anyone starts in here, I am not saying I am perfect and not
> every single job gets my undying effort. But my goal is to make my
> work is as good as I can make it (within reason) before I turn it
> over. I make sure my client gets 110% of what they pay for.
>
> Belt and suspenders? Yup, that's me.
>
> Robert
So where do you live and can I hire u?
I would love to find somebody with that work effort and fair prices.
blueman
> I keep my unused plates in a container with several SilicaGel bags
> that help keep the moisture content down to less than 4%. I also
> throw in a cheap hygrometer ($6.00) to make sure that moisture is not
> an issue.
>
> Your friend is right about tapping the plates in; they are no good if
> they need more than a gentle push to insert them.
>
> Lamello used to have standards on their website to let you know if the
> biscuits had gone out of spec.
>
Although I keep my PC biscuits in a zip-locked bag, I'm concerned that
over the years they may have absorbed some moisture.
Is there any fast/easy/cheap way of drying them out such as baking in
an overn or microwave?
Thanks
blueman
Edwin Pawlowski
"blueman" <NOS...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>
> Although I keep my PC biscuits in a zip-locked bag, I'm concerned that
> over the years they may have absorbed some moisture.
>
> Is there any fast/easy/cheap way of drying them out such as baking in
> an overn or microwave?
>
> Thanks
Do they still fit into the slot? If so, they are OK, if not try putting
them in a 200 degree oven for a time.