Current Count - As Of 10/25/05
Tom Watson
Why is it important to post this here?
21 more young Americans have died since I last posted the count, a
week ago.
Why is it important to post this here?
The demographics of the Wreck are very interesting.
We are old enough to have served in other wars.
We are old enough to have children and grandchildren who might be
called to serve in this "War".
We are old enough to know better.
We vote, we are smart, and we can make a difference if we try.
Why is it important to post this here?
The killing of our children in a "War" that has been entered into
without regard for probable cause, without a clear purpose, without a
description of victory - is no war that we want our children to be
involved in.
To those who would say that, "They enlisted, they know the mission." -
watch the current advertising for the military on television.
Is there a mention of dismemberment? Do they advertise the
possibility of death? Do the ads have the degree of disclosure of
possibilities that we would demand from those who would sell us drugs,
food, and tools?
Why is it important to post this here?
Yes, I have been big on keeping the Wreck free of political discourse.
This is not about politics.
This is about the lives of our children and grandchildren.
Some arguments transcend boundaries that once were useful.
Why is it important to post this here?
Isn't it obvious? And, yes, I will post an update every week, so set
your filters, if you are of such a mind.
For those who have served in the military, I would encourage them to
read the words of a man who grew up in my home town. A two time
Congressional Medal Of Honor recipient. A Marine who should have been
Commandant - but was too honest:
http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
Charles Bull
Ama...@cox.com
>For those who have served in the military, I would encourage them to
>read the words of a man who grew up in my home town. A two time
>Congressional Medal Of Honor recipient. A Marine who should have been
>Commandant - but was too honest:
>
>http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
>
Tom,
You represent yourself as someone who has given a great deal of
thought to world politics and the injustice of war!
As a young Marine I spent a year one month in-country in the late
60's. I was sent home to repair a small wound to my lower back. So
its with a very heavy troubled heart that I count the wounded and
dead.
I would like to ask you a simple question that has trouble me greatly.
It scares me. It scares me more then nukes did, it scares me more then
Nam did.
How in the world, does the world deal with the faction of Islam which
believes that the conversion of whole world to Islam is necessary and
is demanded of them. And that the end justifies the means, including
any type of terror against Jews, Christians, and even other Islamic
woman and children.
Thanks for taking the time to answer this OT post.
Ed
Charlie Self
That's a good question. Unfortunately, no one I know has an answer. The
problem seemingly was smaller and less vicious before we invaded Iraq
2-1/2 years ago. While it may not be true, it seems to me that our
invasion and continued occupation of that country has increased both
the numbers and intensity of Islamic haters in the world. It may have
just brought them to the surface, as I infer from your post, but the
problem is real and very likely to get worse. We don't seem to be doing
anything whatsoever to determine the causes, nor to correct the
condition, and, in fact, too many of those we have elected seem to
ignoring the problem altogether.
There is a poll by another poster that shows just how effective we are
in winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Does that phrase
seem familiar? Only 1% of the Iraqis feel more secure now than before
we toppled Saddam. Something like 82% feel we don't belong there, a
point on which I happen to agree with them.
Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
able to see.
Upscale
> Only 1% of the Iraqis feel more secure now than before
> we toppled Saddam. Something like 82% feel we don't belong there, a
> point on which I happen to agree with them.
>
> Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
> Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
> able to see.
That's not surprising. Better one dictator you know and a semblance of
control than multiple gun happy insurgents blowing up everything and anyone
in sight.
Swingman
> That's a good question. Unfortunately, no one I know has an answer. The
> problem seemingly was smaller and less vicious before we invaded Iraq
> 2-1/2 years ago.
With all due respect, and from one old soldier to another, were not the
first Trade Center bombing, the Cole, and 911, just to name a few, all _pre_
Iraq?
> Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
> Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
> able to see.
A good case can be made that that depends upon how you much you choose to
believe what you read and hear from a media whose survival is predicated
upon hyperbole, sensationalism, and tragedy.
Another good case can be made that suicide/homicide bombings are acts of
desperation, and desperation fairly indicates a cause on the losing end.
From my POV, the International picture has never been all that rosy since
Genghis Kahn, but perhaps it is not as bad as some would want you to
believe?
Not picking an argument .... just some coffee fume thoughts at the beginning
of what promises to be a beautiful day down here in Texas ...
Hope yours is a good one also.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/05
Upscale
>
> Not picking an argument .... just some coffee fume thoughts at the
beginning
> of what promises to be a beautiful day down here in Texas ...
Glad your day is nice. Our up here in Ontario, Canada is about 4° F. with a
lot of rain. And that's good weather for this time year. Sincerest wish is
to win the lottery and move down to a temperate part of the US. Been trying
to figure out which part of your country is warm, but not really hot,
doesn't usually have anything colder than 45° F., no floods, earthquakes,
tornadoes and the least incidence of any sort of climatic catastrophe.
Swingman
"Upscale" wrote in message
> Glad your day is nice. Our up here in Ontario, Canada is about 4° F. with
a
> lot of rain. And that's good weather for this time year. Sincerest wish is
> to win the lottery and move down to a temperate part of the US. Been
trying
> to figure out which part of your country is warm, but not really hot,
> doesn't usually have anything colder than 45° F., no floods, earthquakes,
> tornadoes and the least incidence of any sort of climatic catastrophe.
Not that you wouldn't be welcome, but I don't think Texas would fit your
requirements of temperate. As for the rest, be a good boy and maybe in the
afterlife, Pleasantville ...
;)
Charlie Self
Somehow, I have a feeling this is the best time of year in much of
Texas. It usually is, here, too, but it's been kind of weird this year,
warm late and almost no color to be seen in the woods. We drove up on
the Blue Ridge Parkway yesterday, took the dog and the camera scouting
sites to shoot classic cars, and my wife brought snacks. The wind was
so strong I thought it would blow our hair off when we located a table.
One thing for sure, there was no competition for the picnic tables
anywhere we stopped!
It was still enjoyable and I got three or four good sites and half a
day off. Hard to beat that.
Upscale
> requirements of temperate. As for the rest, be a good boy and maybe in the
> afterlife, Pleasantville ...
Well, I'd definitely be up to visiting sometime. Heard barbequing is
national pastime in your neck of the woods. Guess that's status quo for all
that Texas beef you've got. These past few years, it's the cold that gets to
me, heat doesn't bother me much at all other than running the fan once in
awhile. Haven't run the air condition once in five years. Of course, few
days reach 100°F up here, but it does get humid.
Swingman
>Somehow, I have a feeling this is the best time of year in much of
>Texas.
It is ... just walked in from opening the doors on the shop and it was a
perfect 59. Nice to be able to work without ending the day looking like a
harness lathered plow horse.
>It usually is, here, too, but it's been kind of weird this year,
>warm late and almost no color to be seen in the woods. We drove up on
>the Blue Ridge Parkway yesterday, took the dog and the camera scouting
>sites to shoot classic cars, and my wife brought snacks. The wind was
>so strong I thought it would blow our hair off when we located a table.
>One thing for sure, there was no competition for the picnic tables
>anywhere we stopped!
We basically have two colors here in Texas, live and dead. The wife's from
AR and keeps telling me how pretty the colors are this time of year ...
unfortunately, that's one of life's little pleasures entirely lost on me.
My favorite summer time locale in the US thus far is Wisconsin, up around
Cable.
Swingman
"Upscale" wrote in message
> Well, I'd definitely be up to visiting sometime.
If you're ever in this neck of the woods, let us know beforehand and we'll
scooch over and make room for a visit.
> Heard barbequing is
> national pastime in your neck of the woods. Guess that's status quo for
all
> that Texas beef you've got.
Yep ... tofu doesn't stay on the grill worth a damn.
>These past few years, it's the cold that gets to
> me, heat doesn't bother me much at all other than running the fan once in
> awhile. Haven't run the air condition once in five years. Of course, few
> days reach 100°F up here, but it does get humid.
I wear shorts all year long. I sometimes have to put on a shirt jacket over
the top, but that is rare ... and the fashion industry ignores me for some
reason?
Dave Hall
>
>
>Isn't it obvious? And, yes, I will post an update every week, so set
>your filters, if you are of such a mind.
>
Thanks for the warning. I hope you plan to keep the same first part of
the title so that I can filter on it. You sometimes post some nice
stories I would prefer to not have to miss.
Dave Hall
Doug Miller
>2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".
>
>Why is it important to post this here?
It's not. Label it OT or take it somewhere else.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
jo4hn
> In article <40ftl1p8349040517...@4ax.com>, Tom Watson <no...@erehwon.com> wrote:
>
>>2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".
>>
>>Why is it important to post this here?
>
>
> It's not. Label it OT or take it somewhere else.
>
It is scary, isn't it? Would you trade you son or daughter for a purple
heart?
j4
Doug Miller
No, but I'd gladly trade Tom for a load of purpleheart...
Charles Bull
>In article <LnO7f.39$0d...@fe06.lga>, jo4hn <jo...@charter.mahalo> wrote:
>>Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>>> In article <40ftl1p8349040517...@4ax.com>, Tom Watson
>> <no...@erehwon.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".
>>>>
>>>>Why is it important to post this here?
>>>
>>>
>>> It's not. Label it OT or take it somewhere else.
>>>
>>It is scary, isn't it? Would you trade you son or daughter for a purple
>>heart?
>
>No, but I'd gladly trade Tom for a load of purpleheart...
I too will gladly trade you for a purpleheart
ama...@cox.net
>
>That's a good question. Unfortunately, no one I know has an answer. The
>problem seemingly was smaller and less vicious before we invaded Iraq
>2-1/2 years ago.
I think it was the 1972 Olympics when I first took real notice of how
vicious things could get outside of a war zone. But when I saw the
Iranians dancing in the streets in 1979 it started to dawn on me that
this might be more then a Jew thing. On oct.23 1983 I watched as
over 200 of my brothers where killed in a terror attack. Fast forward
to 2001;Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar issued an edict against
un-Islamic graven images and blows up two colossal Buddhas. Next big
thing to come down is the Two Towers.
I think Islamic Terror was vicious long before Iraq.
The Jihad laid forth by Osama and being waged by his followers is
based on and fueled by their view of Islam.
I don't think there is anywhere to hide or a policy that can save us
from acts of terror, the US is a marked country.
Ed
Robatoy
> 2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".
>
> Why is it important to post this here?
>
[snipped for brevity]
I really, really, really, really try VERY hard to stay out of these
types of discussions...
BUT....
Once in a blue moon, I stumble upon an article that sums up a few of my
sentiments. This article (rant) will likely get the author killed as he
pisses off just about every religion on the planet, but dammit, he makes
you think. (Made *me* think, anyway..but then again..I had time to think
today.)
I don't see this article as anything more than a poignant illustration
just exactly how fucked up we all are...depending where you come from,
of course. Killing for peace has always been difficult for me to
reconcile, even though I acknowledge the need for it sometimes.
or
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/if-youre-a-christian-mu_b_9349.h
tml
bri...@all.costs
wrote:
>In article <LnO7f.39$0d...@fe06.lga>, jo4hn <jo...@charter.mahalo> wrote:
>>Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>>> In article <40ftl1p8349040517...@4ax.com>, Tom Watson
>> <no...@erehwon.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".
>>>>
>>>>Why is it important to post this here?
>>>
>>>
>>> It's not. Label it OT or take it somewhere else.
>>>
>>It is scary, isn't it? Would you trade you son or daughter for a purple
>>heart?
>
no, but he'd jump at the chance to trade YOUR kid for one...
Patrick Conroy
> How in the world, does the world deal with the faction of Islam which
> believes that the conversion of whole world to Islam is necessary and
> is demanded of them. And that the end justifies the means, including
> any type of terror against Jews, Christians, and even other Islamic
> woman and children.
By teaching the children otherwise.
Patrick Conroy
news:11lvf81...@corp.supernews.com:
>>No, but I'd gladly trade Tom for a load of purpleheart...
>
> I too will gladly trade you for a purpleheart
Can I trade my neighbor for some cocobolo?
Doug Miller
FOAD
Doug Miller
I'd be interested in seeing your proposals for doing that...
TWS
wrote:
>In article <puc533-...@armada.sprintco.bbn.net>, Patrick Conroy <patric...@conroy-family.net> wrote:
>>Ama...@cox.com wrote in news:4mitl1llpmuhm24pu...@4ax.com:
>>
>>> How in the world, does the world deal with the faction of Islam which
>>> believes that the conversion of whole world to Islam is necessary and
>>> is demanded of them. And that the end justifies the means, including
>>> any type of terror against Jews, Christians, and even other Islamic
>>> woman and children.
>>
>>
>>By teaching the children otherwise.
>
>I'd be interested in seeing your proposals for doing that...
Let's see...
By setting a good example for one thing. It is not a very wise thing
for the only remaining superpower to act like an international bully
by bombing any country that makes us uneasy. Gaining global community
support not only is more effective at keeping the dictators in check
but also builds diplomatic capital with those countries who are(were)
friendly or neutral. Raging around the world, flexing our (weakening)
military muscles only weakens our relationship with those whose
support we need to REALLY fight international terrorism. Parenting is
hard work, being a bullying parent sounds like the easy way out but it
is only inviting disaster. It would be nice if the people who claim
to be patriots understood that the US can and should be a shining
example - of what's right with a constitutional democracy and not by
flaunting and abusing the advantage of strength we've built by being a
constitutional democracy.
But we get distracted - this was a discussion about Iraq - not about
Islamic terrorists. Saddam Hussein bore NO tolerance for any kind of
fundamentalism, Islamic or otherwise - to associate Iraq with Islamic
terrorism simply buys the BIG LIE we've been handed by this
administration (and his father). Sure, Saddam was perfectly willing
to make deals with any enemies of the US but he was also smart enough
to keep his hands (and borders) clean because he knew any appearance
of explicit support for terrorism would bring the US might onto his
head. The irony is that the invasion of Iraq actually OPENED the
borders of Iraq to Al Queada. Before, the situation was controlled,
now it's a f**king mess with 2000+ US soldiers paying the ultimate
price for the current administration's egotism and lack of foresight.
TWS
jo4hn
peace friend.
j4
Mark & Juanita
'fraid you only get to pick through a chinese menu of the above (at least
for the no colder than 45 deg F:
You get really hot in summer, temperate in winter, drop-dead gorgeous
spring and fall (like now): Arizona
You get temperate year around, but get earthquakes and mud and fire
seasons: California
Hot, humid summers, mild winters, but you get tornadoes and hurricanes (if
you go farther south. : Texas and Florida
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
David Sizemore
> problem seemingly was smaller and less vicious before we invaded Iraq
> 2-1/2 years ago.
RIGHT.......WTC was bombed TWICE since then. Fuckin GWB and his damned
money grabbin war!
> While it may not be true, it seems to me that our
> invasion and continued occupation of that country has increased both
> the numbers and intensity of Islamic haters in the world. It may have
> just brought them to the surface, as I infer from your post, but the
> problem is real and very likely to get worse. We don't seem to be doing
> anything whatsoever to determine the causes, nor to correct the
> condition, and, in fact, too many of those we have elected seem to
> ignoring the problem altogether.
I think it takes education. Let's all get together and educate them
folks that "DEATH TO AMERICA" ain't right.
> There is a poll by another poster that shows just how effective we are
> in winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Does that phrase
> seem familiar? Only 1% of the Iraqis feel more secure now than before
> we toppled Saddam.
Wow!! what a wonderful poll. was it before or after the torture
stopped? Before or after the polls closed?
> Something like 82% feel we don't belong there, a
> point on which I happen to agree with them.
Bully for you. Of course we don't belong there, silly. That's why we
are carrying guns. We did have a responsibility to the world to get
rid fo Saddam, and now we have a responsibility to the world to ensure
the next elected warlord is not just as bad. Saddam bad. We all know
it. We all knew something had to be done. You chose to sit back and
wring your hands, distraught over what would happen. Others decided
that enough was enough.
> Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
> Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
> able to see.
With what information used as a basis? I'm sure the millions of Kurds,
Shiites and Kuwatis might disagree.
Tim Daneliuk
David, David, David (sighs) -
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk tun...@tundraware.com
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
Tim Daneliuk
Well, let's see now. Setting aside the entirely inappropriate, rude,
and vicious tone of this rant, let's review the rather significant
*good* things the religions he mentions have accomplished:
- It was the Muslim Moors who rediscovered and preserved the ancient Greek
philosophers' writings that otherwise would be lost to us after the
burning of the library at Alexandria. They did this because
*their religious tradition* respected this sort of thing.
- It was primarily people acting out of *religious* (Judeo-Christian)
conviction that finally ended Slavery for most of the world. Slavery
had been around for most of the 10,000 or so recorded years of history,
but it took people of Faith to end it once-and-for-all in the 19th
Century. They were so effective, Slavery today is almost non-existent
except in *atheist* totalitarian states and a few remaining tribal
cultures in Africa (where the "relgion" at best is animist or
pantheist with little or no personal moral component). Certainly
there is far, far less of it then ever in human history.
- It was primarily and directly as a consequence of Christian missionaries
that modern medicine and literacy were introduced to the undeveloped
world in South America and Africa. There is precious little medical
infrastructure in Africa today, but there would likely be even less or
none had it not been for these early missionaries. For the record,
a significant number of them were murdered in the early going by the
locals, but people of Faith kept going back until they were able to help.
- In the 20th Century, especially the Cold War, it was the outcry of
devout Christians and Jews that kept the human rights abuses in the
Soviet Union and China on the front burner of popular conscience.
Some of these people risked their lives to smuggle not only religious
literature into these countries, but also humanitarian aid. I have
met and know some of these people personally. They are remarkably
brave, devout, and humble people, rather unlike the author of the
rant you seem to admire so much.
- As we speak, Christian missionaries are regularly reducing spoken
languages into written form all over the world in places like
Indonesia. Yes, their motives are religious, but they alone
endure the personal hardship, physical risks, and deprivations
required to live among native peoples to usher them into an age
of literacy. You pretty much never see pompous atheists like
the author above making any such sacrifices in the interest of
others.
- Jewish and Christian charities account for a huge percentage of
humanitarian outreach such as famine relief, post disaster
aid, and so on. While the UN sits on its hands and gives
its members the opportunity to steal Oil-For-Food money,
organizations like the Salvation Army, Jewish Charities, and
World Vision, quietly toil away to alleviate the suffering of
people not lucky enough to be born in a place so sophisticated
that Faith in a Deity is dismissed as "insanity".
Yes, there have been abuses of religious power from the ancient Egypt to
the Spanish Inquisition to Tammy Faye Baker. But *all* human
institutions are at risk for this. The Soviet atheists alone were guilty
of murdering north of 20 Million people in about 3 years before WWII
even got started. Show me *any* religion with that degree of foul
behavior.
One does not have to be personally religious or devout to acknowledge
the many very real contributions of religious Faith to the human
experience. To dismiss all people of Faith as fools, charlatans, and
criminally insane is both factually in error and in rather poor taste.
But that's OK. Anyone who has to rant the way this author did, is none
too sure of their position. You pretty much never see anyone running
around screaming, "The sun is going to rise tomorrow." People who are
convinced of their own positions don't need to pee on everyone else's.
This author is a fool - and a rude one at that ...
Charlie Self
Swingman wrote:
> "Charlie Self" wrote in message
>
> > That's a good question. Unfortunately, no one I know has an answer. The
> > problem seemingly was smaller and less vicious before we invaded Iraq
> > 2-1/2 years ago.
>
> With all due respect, and from one old soldier to another, were not the
> first Trade Center bombing, the Cole, and 911, just to name a few, all _pre_
> Iraq?
Swing, not ignoring answering, but so busy I haven't had time. Yeah,
all that as pre-Iraq, but, so far, I've seen no proof that any of it
involved Iraq any more than it did, say, Saudi Arabia and Iran.
>
> > Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
> > Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
> > able to see.
>
> A good case can be made that that depends upon how you much you choose to
> believe what you read and hear from a media whose survival is predicated
> upon hyperbole, sensationalism, and tragedy.
>
Or form an Administration that has consistently proven it is unable, or
unwilling, to tell the truth.
> Another good case can be made that suicide/homicide bombings are acts of
> desperation, and desperation fairly indicates a cause on the losing end.
>From your point of view, and mine, sure. I am not at all sure anything
we consider a rational POV from radical Islamists is likely to ever
crop up. The Japanese used these tactics, to a degree and without
generally involving civilians, during WWII, but I don't immediately
recall if anyone else ever has (of course, in the good old days,
pre-gunpowder, such tactics didn't exist, but since then...and, as I
recall, the Hashasheens [sp?] is an Arabic invention that also uses the
promise of whatever number of houris in Paradise for those willing to
die for, according to the person sending them out, Allah, so suicide
attacks did exist pre-gunpowder but were far less effective, if that's
the word).
>
> From my POV, the International picture has never been all that rosy since
> Genghis Kahn, but perhaps it is not as bad as some would want you to
> believe?
>
Always in a turmoil. Yeah, the old, supposedly Chinese curse, "May you
live in interesting times" seems to apply to just about any time in
history, except for a fortunate few people at any one time who are just
uninvolved.
> Not picking an argument .... just some coffee fume thoughts at the beginning
> of what promises to be a beautiful day down here in Texas ...
>
> Hope yours is a good one also.
Gorgeous day yesterday. I spent much of it shooting a 1934 SS1, the
Swallow Standard precursor to the Jaguar...this was the first one with
Jaguar actually on the nameplate under the hood, if not on the
exterior. Incredible car and I am delighted with the photos, but am so
sore this morning I can hardly move (a lot of kneeling, lying down,
climbing ladders to get the shots).
Charlie Self
When you get time (yeah, right), give almost anywhere in Vermont or New
Hampshire a try. Maine ain't all that bad either. Stay out of all of
them in December, January, February and March. After Tax Day, the
weather moderates. June is horrible in Maine--black flies. I think
they're the same thing we call deer flies, but millions more, and they
raise a welt the size of a silver dollar.
Charlie Self
David Sizemore wrote:
> > That's a good question. Unfortunately, no one I know has an answer. The
> > problem seemingly was smaller and less vicious before we invaded Iraq
> > 2-1/2 years ago.
>
> RIGHT.......WTC was bombed TWICE since then. Fuckin GWB and his damned
> money grabbin war!
Huh? What does the WTC have to do with Iraq? Plotters out of
Afghanistan and most of the people taking part were Saudi.
>
> > While it may not be true, it seems to me that our
> > invasion and continued occupation of that country has increased both
> > the numbers and intensity of Islamic haters in the world. It may have
> > just brought them to the surface, as I infer from your post, but the
> > problem is real and very likely to get worse. We don't seem to be doing
> > anything whatsoever to determine the causes, nor to correct the
> > condition, and, in fact, too many of those we have elected seem to
> > ignoring the problem altogether.
>
> I think it takes education. Let's all get together and educate them
> folks that "DEATH TO AMERICA" ain't right.
>
> > There is a poll by another poster that shows just how effective we are
> > in winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Does that phrase
> > seem familiar? Only 1% of the Iraqis feel more secure now than before
> > we toppled Saddam.
>
> Wow!! what a wonderful poll. was it before or after the torture
> stopped? Before or after the polls closed?
Uh,last week or the week before? I don't know. Had the torture stopped
then?
>
> > Something like 82% feel we don't belong there, a
> > point on which I happen to agree with them.
>
> Bully for you. Of course we don't belong there, silly. That's why we
> are carrying guns. We did have a responsibility to the world to get
> rid fo Saddam, and now we have a responsibility to the world to ensure
> the next elected warlord is not just as bad. Saddam bad. We all know
> it. We all knew something had to be done. You chose to sit back and
> wring your hands, distraught over what would happen. Others decided
> that enough was enough.
Saddam bad? WTF does that have to do with the supposed reasons we used
for invading Iraq?
Wring my hands? Others decided? Well, you got the second part right.
>
> > Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
> > Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
> > able to see.
>
> With what information used as a basis? I'm sure the millions of Kurds,
> Shiites and Kuwatis might disagree.
WTF do the Kuwaitis have to do with this?
You've got a problem with coherence, in both thought and expression.
Charlie Self
Thank you, Tim.
David Sizemore
I suggest you google "nanking", where the Imperial Japanese soldiers
tossed infants into the air and caught them on bayonetts, raped the
women, and officers had "beheading" contests. Then talk to the
indigenous Okinawans about being herded into caves to be bombed as part
of a PR campaign, while the Emporer tried to find a way to "surrender
with honor"
See how honorable the Japanese were?
Larry Blanchard
> We did have a responsibility to the world to get
> rid fo Saddam, and now we have a responsibility to the world to ensure
> the next elected warlord is not just as bad.
>
I thought "manifest destiny" had died.
>
>>Oddly enough, Iraq seems to be in far worse shape now than it was under
>>Saddam, and there is no indication of permanent improvement that I'm
>>able to see.
>
>
> With what information used as a basis? I'm sure the millions of Kurds,
> Shiites and Kuwatis might disagree.
>
What information? Just about every Iraqi interviewed, except for
members of the puppet government. Seems like all of them (except the
Sunnis) are glad Saddam is gone, but... And that "but" leads to a long
list of things that were better then than now. Like electricity and
drinkable water. Like gasoline. Like public safety. And most of all,
like no foreign invaders settling in for a long stay.
And what relevance do Kuwaitis opinions of conditions in Iraq have?
ama...@no.com
>borders of Iraq to Al Queada. Before, the situation was controlled,
>now it's a f**king mess with 2000+ US soldiers paying the ultimate
>price for the current administration's egotism and lack of foresight.
>TWS
I posted a question to Tom concerning Radical Islam, an honest
question. It had nothing to do with US policy at any time. I have
enough education to post my questions. If you want to bitch sing your
song do it but don't quote my posts and attribute anything to it
other the what it was.
A question about, READ: WHAT CAN THE COLLECTIVE PLANET DO TO PROTTECT
ITS CHILDREN FROM A FORM OF RADICAL ISLAM THAT CALLS FOR THE
CONFERSION TO FAITH OR DEATH OF ALL INFIDELS? If it will make you
feel better No f**king war will do anything but change the locations
of the killing fields. Don't inject or read anything into that beyond
that. I posted in the thread about Iraq only because of Tom and
wanting to know what he thought, there is no hidden agenda.
Like many during the 60's I was not in a position to smoke dope in
Canada. Instead I got my ass drafted and like many before me I went
to try and stay alive. I left the minds with a higher understanding of
right and wrong to sort out the "f**king mess". First thing I did was
get F**king Shot. And when I was medivac back stateside I watched on
TV as all the people of higher minds and values marched in the
streets to save people like me from dying in a foreign country as we
carried out our countries's "egotism".
I was in rehab for 6 months and in that time not one f**king higher
mind came to share their thoughts and prayers. I never got to enjoy
free love or smoke dope while singing Teach your Children at a CSNY
concert. Why? I'm no Senators Son.
But the one thing I learned was, the people who really care about the
world and the human condition take a hell of lot more action then
shooting off their mouths in a woodworking forum. Or marching down the
street with their hand in Suzy Creamcheeses pants while patting each
other on the back for their higher minds and values.
People with "higher minds and values" take risks. The corpsman whose
values won't let him pick up a gun and dies saving the lives of people
who do. The thousands of volunteers teaching people how to fish so
they can feed themselves. The medical volunteers serving throughout
the world helping where governments won't. You want to see caring, go
look at the volunteers at a geriatric ward. That place where we send
our old when they get in the way of higher ideas. There are so many
ways to make a difference but I don't think political diatribes
posted to a woodworking forum serve anything but to inflate your
already bloated self image. But then, that's what higher minds do
best, talk and get higher.
That's the most I have ever said, you folks can keep masturbating
each other in the rec. I will killfile this thread as I have with most
of thew other garbage.
I will head out to my shop to enjoy my 1000bf of walnut, paid for by
disability payments from an injury I received while being too stupid
to stay out the way of a higher moral belief system.
And in the end I want to be buried with my face down,so all the higher
moral minds can kiss my fat shotup ass goodby.
Ed
Charlie Self
While I don't support the politicians who have mired us in Islamic
Terror Territory more deeply than we need to be, I think the following
might well be worth consideration:
"The average age of the military man is 19 years.
He is a short haired, tight-muscled kid who, under normal circumstances
is considered by society as half man, half boy. Not yet dry behind the
ears, not old enough to buy a beer, but old enough to die for his
country.
He never really cared much for work and he would rather wax his own car
than wash his father's; but he has never collected unemployment either.
He's a recent High School graduate; he was probably an average student,
pursued some form of sport activities, drives a ten year old jalopy,
and has a steady girlfriend that either broke up with him when he left,
or swears to be waiting when he returns from half a world away.
He listens to rock and roll or hip-hop or rap or jazz or swing and
155mm Howitzers.
He is 10 or 15 pounds lighter now than when he was at home because
he is working or fighting from before dawn to well after dusk.
He has trouble spelling, thus letter writing is a pain for him, but
he can field strip a rifle in 30 seconds and reassemble it in less time
in the dark.
He can recite to you the nomenclature of a machine gun or grenade
launcher and use either one effectively if he must.
He digs foxholes and latrines and can apply first aid like a
professional.
He can march until he is told to stop or stop until he is told to
march.
He obeys orders instantly and without hesitation, but he is not without
spirit or individual dignity.
He is self-sufficient. He has two sets of fatigues: he washes one and
wears the other.
He keeps his canteens full and his feet dry.
He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth, but never to clean his rifle.
He can cook his own meals, mend his own clothes, and fix his own hurts.
If you're thirsty, he'll share his water with you; if you are hungry,
his food.
He'll even split his ammunition with you in the midst of battle when
you run low.
He has learned to use his hands like weapons and weapons like they were
his hands.
He can save your life - or take it, because that is his job.
He will often do twice the work of a civilian, draw half the pay and
still find ironic humor in it all.
He has seen more suffering and death then he should have in his short
lifetime.
He has stood atop mountains of dead bodies, and helped to create them.
He has wept in public and in private, for friends who have fallen in
combat and is unashamed.
He feels every note of the National Anthem vibrate through his body
while at rigid attention, while tempering the burning desire to
'square-away' those around him who haven't bothered to stand, remove
their hat, or even stop talking. In an odd twist, day in and day out,
far from home, he defends their right to be disrespectful.
Just as did his Father, Grandfather, and Great-grandfather, he is
paying the price for our freedom.
Beardless or not, he is not a boy.
He is the American Fighting Man that has kept this country free for
over 200 years.
He has asked nothing in return, except our friendship and
understanding.
Remember him, always, for he has earned our respect and admiration with
his blood."
Semper fi
TWS
> The irony is that the invasion of Iraq actually OPENED the
>>borders of Iraq to Al Queada. Before, the situation was controlled,
>>now it's a f**king mess with 2000+ US soldiers paying the ultimate
>>price for the current administration's egotism and lack of foresight.
>No the were busy crashing planes into buildings.
>>TWS
>
>I posted a question to Tom concerning Radical Islam, an honest
>question. It had nothing to do with US policy at any time. I have
>enough education to post my questions. If you want to bitch sing your
>song do it but don't quote my posts and attribute anything to it
>other the what it was.
I was referring to the OP's thread, not yours. Sorry if this offends
you.
<snip of rest of rant>
Robatoy
Tim Daneliuk <tun...@tundraware.com> wrote:
> Well, let's see now. Setting aside the entirely inappropriate, rude,
> and vicious tone of this rant, let's review the rather significant
> *good* things the religions he mentions have accomplished:
First things first.
I learned a long time ago to be on the look-out for red herrings and
straw men.
I do not admire the writer, please don't use the old transparent
"discredit/shoot the messenger" routine. I posted the link to that rant
to illustrate the ridiculousness in what motivates some people to chose
certain paths to destroy themselves and others. Irony with an edge.
Sorry you missed my point.
I have read your posts in the past with a great deal of interest and I
appreciate your reply again this time. You are absolutely correct that
many wonderful things have been done by selfless, committed religious
people. I am aware of that. To use your words: I have
met and know some of these people personally. They are remarkably
brave, devout, and humble people, [snip]
What are the odds of Bush becoming the poster boy for a religious
faction doing the right thing?
Tim Daneliuk
> In article <46h633-...@eskimo.tundraware.com>,
> Tim Daneliuk <tun...@tundraware.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Well, let's see now. Setting aside the entirely inappropriate, rude,
>>and vicious tone of this rant, let's review the rather significant
>>*good* things the religions he mentions have accomplished:
>
>
> First things first.
> I learned a long time ago to be on the look-out for red herrings and
> straw men.
> I do not admire the writer, please don't use the old transparent
> "discredit/shoot the messenger" routine. I posted the link to that rant
> to illustrate the ridiculousness in what motivates some people to chose
> certain paths to destroy themselves and others. Irony with an edge.
> Sorry you missed my point.
I'm sorry as well ... I read it as an apologetic for the rant. My Bad.
>
> I have read your posts in the past with a great deal of interest and I
> appreciate your reply again this time. You are absolutely correct that
> many wonderful things have been done by selfless, committed religious
> people. I am aware of that. To use your words: I have
> met and know some of these people personally. They are remarkably
> brave, devout, and humble people, [snip]
>
> What are the odds of Bush becoming the poster boy for a religious
> faction doing the right thing?
The odds are small - but they *should* be. As the Chief Executive of our
government, his job is not to do the "right thing" because exactly what
is "right" is at least debatable and certainly not agreed to by everyone
in this nation. His sole job is to preserve Liberty by defending the
Constitution. In fact that's the only legitimate job for any of the
Federal government. By that measure, all three branches of government,
and all the regulatory agencies pretty much get a D-. The military gets
an A+ because they do exactly that 99% of the time.
Bob Carter
Vet against the war in Vietnam, I wondered how we had become so
hardened to the nightly statistics during the news. Today they might
call it the virtualization of war I presume.
Thank-you Tom for having the courage to be honest, to remind us of the
thousands mourning the loss of life, the loss of hopes and dreams, the
loss....
Thanks,
Bc
>On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 19:49:16 -0400, Tom Watson <no...@erehwon.com> wrote:
>2000 Young Americans have now died since the beginning of this "War".
>
>Why is it important to post this here?
>
>21 more young Americans have died since I last posted the count, a
>week ago.
>
>Why is it important to post this here?
>
>The demographics of the Wreck are very interesting.
>
>We are old enough to have served in other wars.
>
>We are old enough to have children and grandchildren who might be
>called to serve in this "War".
>
>We are old enough to know better.
>
>We vote, we are smart, and we can make a difference if we try.
>
>Why is it important to post this here?
>
>The killing of our children in a "War" that has been entered into
>without regard for probable cause, without a clear purpose, without a
>description of victory - is no war that we want our children to be
>involved in.
>
>To those who would say that, "They enlisted, they know the mission." -
>watch the current advertising for the military on television.
>
>Is there a mention of dismemberment? Do they advertise the
>possibility of death? Do the ads have the degree of disclosure of
>possibilities that we would demand from those who would sell us drugs,
>food, and tools?
>
>Why is it important to post this here?
>
>Yes, I have been big on keeping the Wreck free of political discourse.
>
>This is not about politics.
>
>This is about the lives of our children and grandchildren.
>
>Some arguments transcend boundaries that once were useful.
>
>Why is it important to post this here?
>
>
>
>Isn't it obvious? And, yes, I will post an update every week, so set
>your filters, if you are of such a mind.
>
>
>
>For those who have served in the military, I would encourage them to
>read the words of a man who grew up in my home town. A two time
>Congressional Medal Of Honor recipient. A Marine who should have been
>Commandant - but was too honest:
>
>http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
>
>
>
>Tom Watson - WoodDorker
>tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
Bc
pathwalkatcenturyteldotnet
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
Tim Daneliuk
> After I was discharged in February of '72, and became involved as a
> Vet against the war in Vietnam, I wondered how we had become so
> hardened to the nightly statistics during the news. Today they might
> call it the virtualization of war I presume.
>
> Thank-you Tom for having the courage to be honest, to remind us of the
> thousands mourning the loss of life, the loss of hopes and dreams, the
> loss....
>
> Thanks,
> Bc
>
>
Yes, it's a real shame those pesky Kurds and Shiites aren't getting
butchered regularly like they used to. Long live the status quo.
David Sizemore
>heart?
I am confused.....are you asking if someone would trade a child for a
medal, as if the award were some valuable "trinket"? Or are you saying
that the sacrifice is somehow "equal" in value to receiving the purple
heart?
dj...@cox.net
> On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:08:55 GMT, spam...@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <puc533-...@armada.sprintco.bbn.net>, Patrick Conroy <patric...@conroy-family.net> wrote:
> >>Ama...@cox.com wrote in news:4mitl1llpmuhm24pu...@4ax.com:
> >>
> >>> How in the world, does the world deal with the faction of Islam which
> >>> believes that the conversion of whole world to Islam is necessary and
> >>> is demanded of them. And that the end justifies the means, including
> >>> any type of terror against Jews, Christians, and even other Islamic
> >>> woman and children.
> >>
> >>
> >>By teaching the children otherwise.
> >
> >I'd be interested in seeing your proposals for doing that...
> Let's see...
>
> By setting a good example for one thing.
Yes, we should be more like France and Russia and supply the dictator
with everything he needs to carry out his atrocities, take the money
and turn our back and pretend it isn't happening. Ever hear of the food
for oil scandal? Maybe we should set that kind of example.
>It is not a very wise thing
> for the only remaining superpower to act like an international bully
> by bombing any country that makes us uneasy. Gaining global community
> support not only is more effective at keeping the dictators in check
> but also builds diplomatic capital with those countries who are(were)
> friendly or neutral. Raging around the world, flexing our (weakening)
> military muscles only weakens our relationship with those whose
> support we need to REALLY fight international terrorism.
So how many more useless resolutions would you have the worthless UN
pass before finally doing something about them. Apparently fourteen
times of saying "Saddam, if you do this one more time, we're gonna...."
wasn't enough for you. If the UN wants to appear weak, let them. It
doesn't mean we have to. Thats why we formed this country, remember? We
don't have to go along with the Europeans or the UN. Ever see "Star
Wars"? Remember the cantina scene? All the corrupt space trash? Now
look at the UN and see the similarities.
>Parenting is
> hard work, being a bullying parent sounds like the easy way out but it
> is only inviting disaster.
Next you're going to tell us it takes a village to raise a child,
right? My parents were often mean, bullying nonetheless loving parents
and I turned out just fine. Now on the other hand, I see plenty of ill
mannered little snots everywhere I go these days, disrespecting their
parents in public, telling them to "shut up", etc. These things never
went on in my formative years, and that wasn't so long ago.
>It would be nice if the people who claim
> to be patriots understood that the US can and should be a shining
> example - of what's right with a constitutional democracy and not by
> flaunting and abusing the advantage of strength we've built by being a
> constitutional democracy.
OK, can't let this slide....we are not a democracy and we weren't
designed to be one by our constitution. We were given a republic by our
founding fathers. Someone asked Ben Franklin, "Mr. Franklin, what form
of government have you given us?" Ben said, "I have given you a
republic, if you can keep it." If you don't know the difference between
a democracy and a republic, blame your public schools, and then go look
it up.
>
> But we get distracted - this was a discussion about Iraq - not about
> Islamic terrorists. Saddam Hussein bore NO tolerance for any kind of
> fundamentalism, Islamic or otherwise - to associate Iraq with Islamic
> terrorism simply buys the BIG LIE we've been handed by this
> administration (and his father).
The 9/11 commission even established a connection between Al Quaeda and
Iraq. Lets see here, Al Quaeda is a worldwide network with cells in a
majority of countries around the world (including the United States,
Canada, and the UK). But naturally they didn't exist in
Iraq.....right? By the way, if you believe that, I have a beach front
condo in the middle of Kansas you might be interested in.
Sure, Saddam was perfectly willing
> to make deals with any enemies of the US but he was also smart enough
> to keep his hands (and borders) clean because he knew any appearance
> of explicit support for terrorism would bring the US might onto his
> head. The irony is that the invasion of Iraq actually OPENED the
> borders of Iraq to Al Queada. Before, the situation was controlled,
> now it's a f**king mess with 2000+ US soldiers paying the ultimate
> price for the current administration's egotism and lack of foresight.
So what is your solution? I hear people slam Bush for his "egotism and
lack of foresight", but I never hear any other plan. At least he is
doing something, and not just talking about it. Puzzling, isn't it? As
I recall, even democrats voted in favor of this war. And yes, soldiers
have died. It tends to happen in a war you know. And before you call me
a chicken hawk, I'll have you know that I was there the first time
around in 91'. We should be ashamed as Americans for pulling out the
first time. It lead to the deaths of countless thousands of Iraqis at
the hands of this guy you seem to have so much admiration for. They
thought we were going to help them then, and they rose up only to watch
us pull out and almost say "just kidding!". In my eyes, this is setting
the record straight with the Iraqi people. It is an atonement for the
sin of the elder Bush.
Thanks,
DJ
>
> TWS
TWS
<snip>
>> By setting a good example for one thing.
>
>Yes, we should be more like France and Russia
It figures that anyone who considers bullying a reasonable solution
would also consider the only alternative is to be a wuss.
TWS
Robatoy
dj...@cox.net wrote:
> Lets see here, Al Quaeda is a worldwide network with cells in a
> majority of countries around the world (including the United States,
> Canada, and the UK). But naturally they didn't exist in
> Iraq.....right?
By that flawed, snot-nosed logic, the US shouldn't attack some more
countries with a few Al Qaeda members in it? Like Canada? We'll never
notice a little DU around our uranium mines..
The bulk of the terrorists flying the planes were Saudis. Saudi Arabia
has had Al Qaeda cells on their soil...why not bomb them, Mr. Jazz?
(I just love the imagery..."So why not bomb the Saudis,
Mr.Jazz?"..silhouettes, cigar smoke..could be a line from Kubrick's Dr.
Strangelove.)
The fact that you were at the First Gulf War doesn't qualify you as a
rational thinker, bub, as your other paragraphs so clearly demonstrate.
There's a fair bit of military history in my family/ancestry, unlike the
kid down the street who came back all thrilled and wide-eyed, because he
got to "kill real people"
As I have opined here before, there are reasons to go to war. [sarcasm
switch=ON] To have a daddyBush who is on the board of The Carlisle
Group, a company which handles investment portfolios for oil wealth and
invests it in things like defence contractors, had NOTHING to do with
starting any kind of war. (Other members include James Baker..yup, same
one who negotiated a Florida victory for Shrub in 2000, Carlucci,
Powell, the list is a who's who of political influence..google Carlisle
Group..you'll have chills....)
Just like Dick Cheney's stock-options in Halliburton had nothing to do
with starting a war either. Along the same lines, there was NO influence
on behalf of Israel via a group of neocons to kick a little butt in the
Middle East. [sarcasm switch=OFF]
Afghanistan to the north, Iraq in the south..almost ready to build that
pipe-line from the Caspian oilfields to the Gulf..ooops..Iran is in the
way....better get that oil before the Chinese go for it....(All that
IMHO *is* a reason to capture some strategic positions, but stop
insulting people by trying to sell them lies based on forged yellow cake
documents.) It's the arrogance that blows up MY skirt.
("these idiot minions will swallow anything") Isn't it Tim Daneliuk in
here who refers to them as sheeple? If so, I'm steeling the
contrac(p)tion. In my country, the sheeple have strong questions like "
oh, wow, man, will that fuck with the price of beer, dude?" or " How
about those Maple Leafs, eh?" " That's one sweet ogee bit you're
spinning there, dude" ^5's
You know... important stuff.
Wow..that's some strong tea I'm drinking here... off to the shop to make
some money for the ShopBot fund.
jo4hn
child was blown away for good reason or no good reason, depending upon
how you feel about the latest war. Good night and good luck.
sigh,
jo4hn