Black and Backpacking round Europe worries
lorraine
im not sure of the kinda reception im in for in places like prague,
russia etc...??? or geneally round europe, i would hate to go were im
not wanted or stared at with displeasure. ive been to spain and france
and they are pretty cool. im not paranoid but i believe its a
reasonable concern. help anyone., or advice??? thank you xx
Mxsmanic
Actually, you _are_ paranoid. In most of the world, being black
doesn't matter. Only Americans (and a small handful of other
nationalities) seem to be obsessed with skin color.
Western Europeans don't care about dark skin. Indeed, for many years
American blacks have moved to Europe in a successful search for
relatively color-blind societies.
I always tell American blacks visiting Europe that, in Europe, they
are _American_, not black ... and that's how they will be seen by
others.
Timothy Kroesen
Spend a few hours in your beloved city's Gare du Nord station and
observe the distinct color trend regarding who gets 'special attention'
by your local jackboots. If you don't see that racism is INDEED a
French problem TOO you're fucking blind, or ignorant, or both.
Should the OP be concerned about travel in Europe? No more so than
traveling in California; but by his "mostly cool" comment he already
knows firsthand what Mr. French baguette is content to ignore.
Tim K
"Mxsmanic" <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0t84e1p5ghee18scv...@4ax.com...
michael...@yahoo.com
travel doesnt come with guarantee's, thats the whole point.
JohnT
"Martin" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:i694e1tqdkibui42k...@4ax.com...
> telling us that there is no racism in Leeds Bradford.
> --
> Martin
He has probably read some contemporary documentation which affirms that
there isn't.
JohnT
Iceman
doesn't matter."
What world are you living in?
"Only Americans (and a small handful of other nationalities) seem to be
obsessed with skin color."
It's downright ridiculous to think that race is not an issue in Europe.
"Western Europeans don't care about dark skin."
Maybe you think that Europe is color-blind, but many black (and Arab
and Turkish) Europeans would strongly disagree.
"Indeed, for many years American blacks have moved to Europe in a
successful search for relatively color-blind societies."
A small number of black American artists and intellectuals moved to
Paris in the 1920's to escape the far worse racism in the US of that
time. There certainly hasn't been any mass movement.
"I always tell American blacks visiting Europe that, in Europe, they
are _American_, not black ... and that's how they will be seen by
others."
Many Europeans are not racist, but that doesn't mean that racism
doesn't exist there.
Iceman
totally fine.
As far as Eastern Europe goes, I don't think you would have any problem
in Prague or Budapest, but you might in untouristed rural areas and
small towns.
Russia OTOH has a lot of racist violence, and African businesspeople,
diplomats, and students are often attacked.
Mxsmanic
> Try having your skin dyed black and report back. Next you'll be
> telling us that there is no racism in Leeds Bradford.
Nobody visits Leeds or Bradford, except, apparently, terrorists.
Mxsmanic
> Spend a few hours in your beloved city's Gare du Nord station and
> observe the distinct color trend regarding who gets 'special attention'
> by your local jackboots. If you don't see that racism is INDEED a
> French problem TOO you're fucking blind, or ignorant, or both.
It's not based on skin color, it's based on apparent nationality.
Many recent immigrants are black, but that is only a coincidence.
Arab-looking people may be harassed as well, but not because they have
slightly darker skin. The key distinguishing characteristic for both
groups is that they look _foreign_, and from an incompatible culture
at that.
> Should the OP be concerned about travel in Europe? No more so than
> traveling in California; but by his "mostly cool" comment he already
> knows firsthand what Mr. French baguette is content to ignore.
A lot of people have vivid imaginations, and they will see what isn't
there.
Mxsmanic
> What world are you living in?
One in which skin color is not an important issue.
> It's downright ridiculous to think that race is not an issue
> in Europe.
Being an issue is different from being an obsession. For some
Europeans, race is a consideration. But very few have the unhealthy
obsession with race that so many Americans have.
> Maybe you think that Europe is color-blind, but many black (and Arab
> and Turkish) Europeans would strongly disagree.
Arabs and Turks are of the same race as Europeans, which invalidates
your implied assertion.
> A small number of black American artists and intellectuals moved to
> Paris in the 1920's to escape the far worse racism in the US of that
> time. There certainly hasn't been any mass movement.
It's awkward and expensive to move to Europe, and many blacks in the
U.S. know nothing about Europe, anyway (they assume the situation is
the same everywhere). A lot of black GIs discovered that Europe is
different, though.
> Many Europeans are not racist, but that doesn't mean that racism
> doesn't exist there.
Most Europeans are not attacked by sharks, but that doesn't mean that
there are no sharks in the waters off the coasts of Europe.
So what?
Timothy Kroesen
Why assume it's the 'colored man' who doesn't have a proper visa to
begin with? Did I as a white American backpacker look like a French
citizen??? Are you actually implying that such astute French police
couldn't tell I was not a French national, therefore suspect on any and
all immigration issues, while every other person I met would suspect I
wasn't a native on looks alone???
You prove my point Huckleberry!
> A lot of people have vivid imaginations, and they will see what isn't
> there (Mixi)
Or refuse to see what there is in FRANCE too. How dare you point your
finger at the US on this issue. I witnessed overt racism on that FRENCH
platform; in a QUANTITY that would have a mob screaming 'no justice, no
peace' outside a public station here in the US. I also learned such
treatment was apparently de rigeur at Gare du Nord; SO IT IS WITH YOU
TOO neuvo Frenchman!
Tim K
"Mxsmanic" <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:h5i4e198r645g7hnc...@4ax.com...
Mxsmanic
> Why assume it's the 'colored man' who doesn't have a proper visa to
> begin with?
A great many illegal immigrants in France are from Africa, and so many
of them have dark skin. Thus, a person with dark skin, an African
accent, and dress or behavior that corresponds to African norms is
more likely to be an illegal immigrant than someone who looks
Norwegian.
> Did I as a white American backpacker look like a French
> citizen???
I don't know.
> Are you actually implying that such astute French police
> couldn't tell I was not a French national, therefore suspect on any and
> all immigration issues, while every other person I met would suspect I
> wasn't a native on looks alone???
Americans are rarely bothered on immigration issues, even when they
are likely to be illegal immigrants. The same is true for others from
cultures grossly similar to that of France. I suppose the idea is
that a lack of strong cultural differences will make such people less
likely to get into trouble, and many such people are not abjectly poor
and unemployable or intended to remain for long periods and thus are
not likely to be a burden on the public treasury.
> Or refuse to see what there is in FRANCE too. How dare you point your
> finger at the US on this issue. I witnessed overt racism on that FRENCH
> platform; in a QUANTITY that would have a mob screaming 'no justice, no
> peace' outside a public station here in the US. I also learned such
> treatment was apparently de rigeur at Gare du Nord; SO IT IS WITH YOU
> TOO neuvo Frenchman!
Thank you for your anecdote, but I don't consider anecdotes very
representative.
Timothy Kroesen
witnessed at Gare du Nord...
Tim K
"Mxsmanic" <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sik4e15rpnh3r484n...@4ax.com...
> Timothy Kroesen writes:
>
> > Why assume it's the 'colored man' who doesn't have a proper visa to
> > begin with?
>
> A great many illegal immigrants in France are from Africa, and so many
> of them have dark skin. Thus, a person with dark skin, an African
> accent, and dress or behavior that corresponds to African norms is
> more likely to be an illegal immigrant than someone who looks
> Norwegian.
>
> Americans are rarely bothered on immigration issues, even when they
> are likely to be illegal immigrants. The same is true for others from
> cultures grossly similar to that of France. I suppose the idea is
> that a lack of strong cultural differences will make such people less
> likely to get into trouble, and many such people are not abjectly poor
> and unemployable or intended to remain for long periods and thus are
> not likely to be a burden on the public treasury.
>
>
Mxsmanic
> and not see what is there as in pre-war Germany?
Or present-day America.
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco
> "Actually, you _are_ paranoid. In most of the world, being black
> doesn't matter."
>
> What world are you living in?
Mixi lives in a dark cupboard, with the lights out. Of course your skin
colour doesn't matter there!
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco
As a general rule of thumb, you'll tend to find cities much less of a
problem than in the countryside. I think, that in terms of personal
safety, you should expect to be fine anywhere. (I noted what someone
said about Russia though- I can't comment on that, I've never been.)
However, you can expect to be stared at, if not always 'with
displeasure' but just curiosity. I've asked my partner about this- as
he's commented on it before. (He's not black, but dark-skinned latino-
enough to be 'other' in some places!) He definitely feels that he
attracts extra looks in a lot of countries that we travel too. I think
you sound as if you could more than handle the occasional stare (my
partner says he just stares back!) so I think you'd be fine.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Timothy Kroesen wrote:
> Another white bread expatriate ignores his 'roots'...
>
> Spend a few hours in your beloved city's Gare du Nord station and
> observe the distinct color trend regarding who gets 'special attention'
> by your local jackboots. If you don't see that racism is INDEED a
> French problem TOO you're fucking blind, or ignorant, or both.
>
> Should the OP be concerned about travel in Europe? No more so than
> traveling in California; but by his "mostly cool" comment he already
> knows firsthand what Mr. French baguette is content to ignore.
You may be right to some extent, but so is Mixi - I know of
several black American opera singers who choose to make
their homes in Europe because they are treated like normal
human beings there. (And not just those of my generation,
for whom operatic careers in Europe were much more easily
attained than in their own country.)
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Mxsmanic wrote:
Well, as in pre-war Germany, it's much easier to close your
eyes if you don't feel personally threatened. (However, one
can hope we in the U.S. will learn a lesson from Hitler's
Germany, and open our eyes before it's too late!)
Earl Evleth
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Should the OP be concerned about travel in Europe? No more so than
>> traveling in California; but by his "mostly cool" comment he already
>> knows firsthand what Mr. French baguette is content to ignore.
>
> You may be right to some extent, but so is Mixi - I know of
> several black American opera singers who choose to make
> their homes in Europe because they are treated like normal
> human beings there. (And not just those of my generation,
> for whom operatic careers in Europe were much more easily
> attained than in their own country.)
I have mentioned a couple of times Terry Stovall's book "Paris Noir"
which deals with the American Black experience in Paris from
WWI on.
Prior to that is the experience of an American cyclist,
"Major" Taylor around the turn of the 19th/2Oth century.
He was essentially a world champion (professional
cycling took off a this point). He was extremely popular
in Europe and Australia, treated royally but his reception
in the US at that time was "mixed".
I wrote this up a couple of years ago when commenting on
Lance Armstrong's performance (which is repeating itself today!)
******
Major Taylor . More interesting was the fact he was Black. He had
a lot of problems racing in the US but eventually did to go France
and won a number of races there. He became a world`s champion. He was
royally treated in Europe, particularly France and Australia which
particularly contrasted with his treatment in the US except in New
England. He was well treated by a number of northern Whites who,
sometimes in paternalistic fashion, took him under their wing.
He is more or less forgotten in American sports lore but did gain
some historical recognition in recent years His major
biography was written by a British author. " MAJOR TAYLOR
The Extraordinary Career of a Champion Bicycle Racer" by
Andrew Ritchie.
I bought and read the book. The author gives a lot of detail to
each major race, which I did not find particularly interesting
but it is a book worth reading. Especially interesting is
Ritchie's demonstration of the importance of the bicycle in
the period just before the turn of the century, the development
of bicycle manufacturing etc, and rapid technological advances.
All that was new information to me. Taylor`s problems with
American racism is not new material, unfortunately it is
well known historically. The resistance to Blacks entering
into sports competition with Whites lasted a long time
in the US. Those of us old enough remember when Blacks
first could play major league baseball. It was not just
Hitler who hated Jesse Owens.
The example of Major Taylor may produce a major black cyclist
in the future, there are some Major Taylor cycling clubs
in the US.
****
Earl
Timothy Kroesen
similar... No...No racism in France...
Tim K
"Earl Evleth" <evl...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:BF08FDED.73042%evl...@wanadoo.fr...
Stanislas de Kertanguy
> What was that world traveled French moniker: "moulon john'
Mouloudji, maybe?
> No...No racism in France...
Yes there is. Far too much. Your point being?
--
inversez "kertanguy" et "de" pour me joindre
DDT Filled Mormons
wrote:
>Im black and want to backpack round europe for the first time, however
>im not sure of the kinda reception im in for in places like prague,
>russia etc...??? or geneally round europe, i would hate to go were im
>not wanted or stared at with displeasure. ive been to spain and france
>and they are pretty cool. im not paranoid but i believe its a
>reasonable concern. help anyone., or advice??? thank you xx
http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?as_uauthors=ru_10_ndo%40hotmail.com
Fails the troll test.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
DDT Filled Mormons
Africa has businesspeople?
C'mon...
Gregory Morrow
lorraine wrote:
> Im black and want to backpack round europe for the first time, however
> im not sure of the kinda reception im in for in places like prague,
> russia etc...??? or geneally round europe, i would hate to go were im
> not wanted or stared at with displeasure. ive been to spain and france
> and they are pretty cool. im not paranoid but i believe its a
> reasonable concern. help anyone., or advice??? thank you xx
>
Why do I think you are a troll who has posted here previously with such
phony "concerns"?
--
Best
Greg
Gregory Morrow
DDT Filled Mormons wrote:
Thank you! I was *just* discovering the same for myself ;-)
--
Best
Greg
Padraig Breathnach
Why do I think Greg knows about trolls?
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
Timothy Kroesen
nationalities) seem to be obsessed with skin color.
Western Europeans don't care about dark skin. Indeed, for many years
American blacks have moved to Europe in a successful search for
relatively color-blind societies.
I always tell American blacks visiting Europe that, in Europe, they
are _American_, not black ... and that's how they will be seen by
others." Msxmanic
Tearing Neuvo-French Mixi a new one when he points the racism finger at
the US on such issues... I'd bet our OP knew the word too...
Tim K
"Stanislas de Kertanguy" <stanislas....@laposte.net> wrote in
message news:1h080zf.8pbkkh15dt19vN%stanislas....@laposte.net...
Gregory Morrow
Padraig Breathnach wrote:
Tut tut, you can argue my content but at least I do not hide behind various
monikers ;-)
--
Best
Greg
Earl Evleth
0zYEe.4307$6f....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net, "Timothy Kroesen"
<TKRO...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
> Western Europeans don't care about dark skin.
Sure they do, they head to the south, the beaches to get a tan
every year.
A too white a skin is considered to have an unhealthy look.
People do worry on the other end of the scale about skin
cancer, however.
I think titrating European skin hues to being more olive is necessary
and this can be accomplished by bring more Black Africans into
Europe. I suggest a target of around 20-30% Black "blood" overall.
Personally, I think the ebony black skins on Africans the most beautiful
of all skin hues.
But Fish-belly white, ugh, it looks like decaying flesh.
DDT Filled Mormons
>Annan's son?
Oooh, good example!
Mxsmanic
> A too white a skin is considered to have an unhealthy look.
Europeans are far more tolerant of extremely pale skin than Americans.
> I think titrating European skin hues to being more olive is necessary
> and this can be accomplished by bring more Black Africans into
> Europe. I suggest a target of around 20-30% Black "blood" overall.
What purpose would this serve?
> Personally, I think the ebony black skins on Africans the most beautiful
> of all skin hues.
Personally, I think that extremely pale white skin contrasted with
dark hair is the most beautiful of all.
> But Fish-belly white, ugh, it looks like decaying flesh.
Very dark skin looks like it's dirty. Either way, there are
disadvantages if the color is not to your taste. And there's no
accounting for taste.
Timothy Kroesen
as I've heard said in Europe... Mixi didn't, and wrote that.
Tim K
"Earl Evleth" <evl...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:BF0A6198.732DB%evl...@wanadoo.fr...
Earl Evleth
"Mxsmanic" <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Earl Evleth writes:
>
>> I think titrating European skin hues to being more olive is necessary
>> and this can be accomplished by bring more Black Africans into
>> Europe. I suggest a target of around 20-30% Black "blood" overall.
>
> What purpose would this serve?
Better looking and lower skin cancer rates.
But mostly better looking.
>> But Fish-belly white, ugh, it looks like decaying flesh.
>
> Very dark skin looks like it's dirty.
Sounds racist!
If you buy clothing which is not going to show dirt, you get
dark clothing. I have spotted black and white Greek sweaters
which "behave" like that. Try wearing "all white" in Paris,
it shows the dirt. "Ring around the collar" shows up on white
shirts with one wearing. Why white shirts when black shirts
would not be less dirt appearing.
> Either way, there are
> disadvantages if the color is not to your taste. And there's no
> accounting for taste.
With poor taste there is an accounting.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Gregory Morrow wrote:
You may be right on both counts, Greg, but it IS a
legitimate topic for concern. A woman traveling alone is
naturally concerned about her personal safety in unfamiliar
surroundings. Being a black woman would add another
dimension for concern. The U.S. has come a long way since
the Civil Rights movement, but despite what various network
TV series and "colorblind" commercials may imply, we still
have a long way to go toward true "equality" in all areas.
It's only reasonable for a black American to wonder whether
the same difference between "perceived" and "actual" might
exist in other countries.
DDT Filled Mormons
<evg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>Gregory Morrow wrote:
>
>> lorraine wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Im black and want to backpack round europe for the first time, however
>>>im not sure of the kinda reception im in for in places like prague,
>>>russia etc...??? or geneally round europe, i would hate to go were im
>>>not wanted or stared at with displeasure. ive been to spain and france
>>>and they are pretty cool. im not paranoid but i believe its a
>>>reasonable concern. help anyone., or advice??? thank you xx
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Why do I think you are a troll who has posted here previously with such
>> phony "concerns"?
>
>You may be right on both counts, Greg, but it IS a
>legitimate topic for concern. A woman traveling alone is
>naturally concerned about her personal safety in unfamiliar
>surroundings. Being a black woman would add another
>dimension for concern.
I disagree. The concerns a woman has because she is attractive, and
those for her being black would be mutually exclusive. I see no
connection between a womans personal safety and her colour.
Mxsmanic
> Sounds racist!
No more so than "fish-belly white."
> If you buy clothing which is not going to show dirt, you get
> dark clothing. I have spotted black and white Greek sweaters
> which "behave" like that. Try wearing "all white" in Paris,
> it shows the dirt. "Ring around the collar" shows up on white
> shirts with one wearing. Why white shirts when black shirts
> would not be less dirt appearing.
Does this apply to skin as well?
No Spam
news:mi3ae11m4mcfaadin...@4ax.com...
> Very dark skin looks like it's dirty.
Classic Mixi.
Timothy Kroesen
likely improve your immune system via naturally produced B complex
vitamins too... You may then more safely test your other asinine
health related theory by licking a local subway wall.
Tim K
"Mxsmanic" <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:losae1dcbu0je1c61...@4ax.com...
Mxsmanic
> Get some sun; it will likely improve your immune system via
> naturally produced B complex vitamins too...
B vitamins must be ingested in food, they are not manufactured in the
body (and B12, in particular, must be obtained from animal products,
including milk). Some of them are destroyed direct exposure to
sunlight.
Timothy Kroesen
immune system.
Tim K
"Mxsmanic" <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:21dde1t7thk0o05cp...@4ax.com...
Mxsmanic
> My bad; I meant D complex vitamins; which are also essential to the
> immune system.
I get more than enough sunlight. It's really only a problem near the
poles, where there may not be sunlight at all for long periods, or for
people who are unable to ever go outside, such as prison inmates and
the like.
But in addition to sunlight I also drink a lot of milk, which is
usually fortified with vitamin D.
Donna Evleth
> From: "Timothy Kroesen" <TKRO...@peoplepc.com>
> Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
> Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:55:04 GMT
> Subject: Re: Black and Backpacking round Europe worries
>
> Spend a few hours in your beloved city's Gare du Nord station and
> observe the distinct color trend regarding who gets 'special attention'
> by your local jackboots. If you don't see that racism is INDEED a
> French problem TOO you're fucking blind, or ignorant, or both.
>
> Should the OP be concerned about travel in Europe? No more so than
> traveling in California; but by his "mostly cool" comment he already
> knows firsthand what Mr. French baguette is content to ignore.
>
> Tim K
A distinction is made in France between American blacks and African blacks.
American blacks are associated with jazz music, Josephine Baker and such
good things. African blacks are associated with drug dealing. The two
groups are told apart the instant they open their respective mouths and
start to speak. American blacks are very unlikely to be hassled in the
manner described above.
Donna Evleth
Earl Evleth
"Martin" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> A distinction is made in France between American blacks and African blacks.
>> American blacks are associated with jazz music, Josephine Baker and such
>> good things. African blacks are associated with drug dealing. The two
>> groups are told apart the instant they open their respective mouths and
>> start to speak. American blacks are very unlikely to be hassled in the
>> manner described above.
>
> Odd considering that most American jazz musicians were also drug
> addicts.
Post WWII American Blacks came from a more literary and professional
backgrounds. Whatever, American Blacks have traditionally been treated
better than African Blacks in France. The French have a problem since they
have their own Blacks from the Caribbean who have been French for centuries
and object to being classed with the others.
> and there's Mixi saying that there is no racial discrimination in
> France.
The American Black in prison here whom we visit, is actually born in Ghana
but came to the US as a teenager. African Blacks in the USA are
characteristically different than American Blacks. This is also true
of various Caribbean Blacks who come to live in the USA. These
differences essentially prevented any pan-African movement from becoming
strong. Some American Blacks, on visiting Africa, find that their roots
are not that strong.
One book by the American Black journalist Keith B. Richburg is
"Out of America: A Black Man Confronts Africa" (for one
review see http://www.unc.edu/~ottotwo/Roderreview.html) leaves
one with the feeling that the "roots" concept is stretched a bit.
I have no feeling of roots with Devonshire, which is where my
direct male ancestor came from. Nor do I quite feel that the
English are my cousins. Strangely enough I feel that my
ancestors came from Northern Germany, Anglo-Saxon country,
and that "we" cruelly invaded England and drove the poor Celts
off into corner of their own country.
We did not even use part of their language. Judging from what
I have seen of Welsh, it was probably a good decision and
fortunately the French were able to give the final version
of English some character. Later the slaves of North America
were able to Africanize American English a bit too. Certainly
the smooth accent of a Southern Belle* (Georgia, I think) is easier on the
ear than that screechy version English spoken in Britain.
*Chirac's southern girl friend when he lived in the US called
him "honey-child". It is a sexy accent (not to be confused with
the horrible Texan accent-anyway if we need to discuss more
"yo'all come back".
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:55:37 +0200, Earl Evleth <evl...@wanadoo.fr>
> wrote:
[]
> >Judging from what
> >I have seen of Welsh, it was probably a good decision and
> >fortunately the French were able to give the final version
> >of English some character. Later the slaves of North America
> >were able to Africanize American English a bit too. Certainly
> >the smooth accent of a Southern Belle* (Georgia, I think) is easier on the
> >ear than that screechy version English spoken in Britain.
>
> I don't recognise spoken UK English from that description. Can you
> give an example. Do you subscribe to the Mixi theory of English
> accents?
It's important to remember that everyone speaks the same English in the
UK. Not only do we always use the same words and speech patterns, but
our accents are identical. Oh, and tones, don't forget the tones that
Mixi discovered that we all use. And the quality of English verbs and
adjectives found in the supermarkets is really bad- don't forget that.
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Mxsmanic
> A distinction is made in France between American blacks and African blacks.
> American blacks are associated with jazz music, Josephine Baker and such
> good things. African blacks are associated with drug dealing. The two
> groups are told apart the instant they open their respective mouths and
> start to speak. American blacks are very unlikely to be hassled in the
> manner described above.
Even before they speak, the locals can usually see the difference
between American blacks and African blacks. American blacks tend to
be far better dressed and often have lighter skin. And most American
blacks look like western Africans (that's where the ancestors of most
American blacks came from), whereas African blacks show a great deal
of variety since they come from a much larger area of Africa.
The essential thing to remember, though, is that the French have
nothing against dark skin or people with dark skin. They do have a
problem with immigrants from African cultures, though, thanks to huge
waves of immigrants from former colonies who have failed to assimilate
into French society. Moral: Never establish colonies in an area if
you don't want the indigenous peoples as your neighbors back home.
As for drug dealing, African blacks may be key players on the local
scene but (based on what I've read), the overall recruitment for drug
use and drug dealing is encouraged by drug dealers in the USA, who are
looking to expand their markets. Drug use has not traditionally been
the problem in France (or Europe) that it is in the USA, but some
American drug dealers are trying to change that.
Unfortunately, although African blacks in France have nothing at all
in common with American blacks except relatively dark skin, the mass
media have convinced many African blacks that they should emulate the
dark-skinner losers across the water and form a disadvantage subclass
of society, instead of integrating and operating as normal French
people. Even French blacks (born and raised in France for several
generations) are falling into this trap, although not as quickly as
immigrants or their immediate descendants.
If this continues France will eventually have the same problem with a
black underclass that the USA has, and for no good reason.
Mxsmanic
> Odd considering that most American jazz musicians were also drug
> addicts.
Most?
> and there's Mixi saying that there is no racial discrimination in
> France.
There isn't. There is _cultural_ discrimination, but that's not the
same thing. People don't care if your skin is dark in France; they
care if you are French or not.
B Vaughan
wrote:
>... Drug use has not traditionally been
>the problem in France (or Europe) that it is in the USA ...
I guess you haven't spent much time in Amsterdam.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
Jack Campin - bogus address
>> France (or Europe) that it is in the USA ...
> I guess you haven't spent much time in Amsterdam.
Scottish cities have a higher proportion of drug addicts than
New York, with even higher numbers addicted in some smaller
towns - I think Fraserburgh (a fishing village near Aberdeen)
holds the record.
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
Earl Evleth
"Martin" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:54:52 +0200, B Vaughan<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:20:26 +0200, Mxsmanic <mxsm...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> ... Drug use has not traditionally been
>>> the problem in France (or Europe) that it is in the USA ...
>>
>> I guess you haven't spent much time in Amsterdam.
>
> There are more than 250,000 cocaine addicts in UK.
The biggest problem right now in the US is "speed". It is largely
a working class white drug which has not attracted a lot of attention
by the general public. Part of the American "war on drugs" has
been effectively an attempt at socially controlling America's Blacks.
The legal sanctions against cocaine possession is much higher for crack
(used by Blacks) than powder cocaine (used by Whites). It was once
estimated something like 80% of the cocaine users in the LA area
are White, but the persons arrested are mostly Blacks.
Earl Evleth
bogus-78E6DF....@news.news.demon.net, "Jack Campin - bogus
address" <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Scottish cities have a higher proportion of drug addicts than
> New York, with even higher numbers addicted in some smaller
> towns - I think Fraserburgh (a fishing village near Aberdeen)
> holds the record.
Since drug use is illegal, estimate of how many users there involves
some error and some manipulation by authorities who wish, at various
times to make the problem appear either better or worse.
The patterns of addiction changes too. New York has gone through
various phases.
The big drop in NY homicides has been attributed to the changing character
of the drugs taken, crack being abandoned by the young generation as too
dangerous, they saw the damage it did to their parents. The book, "Crime
Drop in America" deals with the changing drug scene in NY and how that
affected criminality in that city from 1980 to the late 1990s.
Mxsmanic
> I guess you haven't spent much time in Amsterdam.
Amsterdam is not representative of Europe as a whole.
I have been to Amsterdam, but only briefly. Even so, I was there
longer than I wished to be.
Mxsmanic
> Part of the American "war on drugs" has
> been effectively an attempt at socially controlling America's Blacks.
> The legal sanctions against cocaine possession is much higher for crack
> (used by Blacks) than powder cocaine (used by Whites). It was once
> estimated something like 80% of the cocaine users in the LA area
> are White, but the persons arrested are mostly Blacks.
Are laws against murder also an attempt to control blacks? After all,
murders in the U.S. are disproportionately represented by blacks
killing other blacks, IIRC.
Gregory Morrow
Earl Evleth wrote:
> On 29/07/05 10:39, in article qoqje11pbi7a6ungh...@4ax.com,
> "Martin" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:54:52 +0200, B Vaughan<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:20:26 +0200, Mxsmanic <mxsm...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> ... Drug use has not traditionally been
> >>> the problem in France (or Europe) that it is in the USA ...
> >>
> >> I guess you haven't spent much time in Amsterdam.
> >
> > There are more than 250,000 cocaine addicts in UK.
>
> The biggest problem right now in the US is "speed". It is largely
> a working class white drug which has not attracted a lot of attention
> by the general public.
It's really big in poorer rural areas, in fact it's epidemic (or at least
it's production is) in some parts of Illinois, Iowa, Missouri, etc...
Part of the American "war on drugs" has
> been effectively an attempt at socially controlling America's Blacks.
From the days of Billie Holiday and even before. While many white jazz
musicans (members of Woody Herman's band, Anita O'Day [though she did some
time in the mid - 50's]) were shooting and coking up with abandon, "the man"
had to make an example of poor Billie, she was banned from ever getting a
cabaret license after her bust...
> The legal sanctions against cocaine possession is much higher for crack
> (used by Blacks) than powder cocaine (used by Whites). It was once
> estimated something like 80% of the cocaine users in the LA area
> are White, but the persons arrested are mostly Blacks.
"Crystal Meth" is a real big problem in some of the gay communities here in
the states (it's a popular "club drug"), some really prominent members of
the community in Chicago frex have seriously screwed up their lives. These
guys are white, upscale, etc:
http://www.wctimes.com/gay/lesbian/news/ARTICLE.php?AID=8968
Local Chorus Official Arrested on Meth Charges
by Andrew Davis
2005-07-27
"Paul Weldin, the general manager of the Chicago Gay Men's Chorus, was
arrested July 21 for possessing crystal methamphetamine.
According to Lt. Bob Stasch of the city's 23rd Police District, officers
found 31 grams of crystal meth ( street value: $10,200 ) in Weldin's
apartment on the 2000 block of West Farwell. Stasch also told Windy City
Times that almost $11,000 in cash was also discovered there.
Weldin has been charged with one count of possession of a controlled
substance with intent to deliver. Police searched Weldin's home based on
information from an informant who had been working with the officers. Stasch
said Weldin admitted the money came from drug sales.
The Cook County State's Attorney's Office informed Windy City Times that
Judge Colleen Hyland set Weldin's bond at $100,000 on July 22. (As of July
25, Weldin was still being held in Cook County Jail.) A preliminary hearing
is Aug. 10.
At one point Weldin, a certified tour professional, was also president of
L&GIT, a company that catered to the lesbian and gay community. In that
capacity, he gave presentations on gay and lesbian tourism.
On July 22, the Chicago Gay Men's Chorus issued a press release concerning
Weldin. The statement reads as follows:
"We were very surprised to learn of the arrest of Paul Weldin, who is
employed by the Chorus as its part-time General Manager. We had no reason to
suspect that Mr. Weldin may have been involved in illegal activities of any
kind. We will be following the progress of the police investigation."
http://www.wctimes.com/gay/lesbian/news/ARTICLE.php?AID=7321
CHICAGO GAY ACTIVIST CHARGED IN CABBIE KILLING
by Andrew Davis
2005-02-09
'Michael L. Jackson, 37, a communications and policy director with the
Chicago Department of Public Health's ( CDPH's ) STD/HIV/AIDS Program, was
denied bond Feb. 7 after turning himself in to police investigating the
death of a taxi driver.
At the noon hearing at 26th and California, Jackson's attorneys, Jon
Erickson and Michael Oppenheimer, contended that Jackson should be granted
bail because of his standing in the community and because the victim, Haroon
Paryani, was allegedly the aggressor in the situation. The attorneys also
asked the judge not to take into consideration Jackson's 1993 DUI arrest in
Georgia.
Erickson and Oppenheimer also named several people who could vouch for
Jackson's character, including local activist Mike Bauer; the Rev. Stan
Sloan, executive director of local AIDS agency Chicago House; and Ann Hilton
Fisher, executive director of AIDS Legal Council of Chicago.
However, the state's attorney told Cook County Judge Raymond Myles that if
convicted of both charges ( first-degree murder and aggravated vehicular
hijacking ) , Jackson would face a mandatory sentence of life in prison.
Myles said that, although the court presumes innocence until someone is
proven guilty, the severity of the crime and the heinousness of the facts
precluded the granting of bail.
Outside the courtroom, Erickson and Oppenheimer repeated their contention
that Paryani was the aggressor and that Jackson was attempting to defend
himself. When pressed how such a situation could escalate over what was
supposedly an $8 fare or if drugs were somehow involved, the attorneys
responded that the evidence would ultimately provide the truth. The reply
was the same when questioned about Jackson's reaction to being denied bond,
although Oppenheimer said that Jackson was "disappointed."
People were at a loss to understand how such a situation could transpire.
Dennis Sneyers, current president of the Hearts Foundation ( where Jackson
formerly served on the board and which he co-founded ) , conveyed his
thoughts. "I am very surprised," Sneyers communicated via e-mail to Windy
City Times. "In the eight years I have known Michael he never exhibited any
type of aggressive behavior. If Michael was involved with this tragedy
something must have happened that we don't know about yet. He was always a
very caring and compassionate person. My prayers go to the family of the cab
driver."
Fisher, who spoke with Windy City Times prior to the bond hearing, said that
" [ i ] t's a terrible tragedy. It's just heartbreaking. It's all tragic.
The driver's death is a tragedy-and Mike being accused is another." When
asked about an honor named after the alleged assailant-the Jackson Service
Award-that she received last year from Hearts Foundation, Fisher responded
that she's "not taking down the award from the wall. The Mike Jackson whose
hearing I'm going to is not the Mike Jackson I know." Fisher also mentioned
helping out Paryani's kin: "I'm hoping that our neighborhood will start a
fundraising drive on behalf of the driver's family."
After the hearing, AIDS Legal Council released the following statement: "The
death of Haroon Paryani on Chicago's north side last Thursday night was a
horrible tragedy. We know, from our own clients' stories, of the enormous
personal courage it takes for an immigrant to come to this country and make
a life in a new community and in a new language. Our deepest sympathies go
out to his family at this difficult time.
"Mike Jackson has been a valuable colleague in the fight against HIV and
AIDS in Chicago. We were among the scores of organizations and individuals
he and the Hearts Foundation helped, directly and indirectly. We were
stunned to hear that he had been charged with this crime.
"We do not know what happened on Briar Street on Thursday night. We do know,
that whatever the outcome of the criminal proceedings, nothing will restore
Mr. Paryani to his family."
Windy City Times spoke with Jackson as recently as Feb. 3 while gathering
information for an article concerning AIDS. Jackson seemed quite composed
and showed no signs of erratic behavior. However, numerous people contacted
Windy City Times to report allegations of drug abuse and signs of trouble,
including Jackson allegedly being asked to leave a gay bar the week of the
incident.
CDPH declined to comment on anything related to the case. They did announce
Jackson's job was terminated due to the allegations. He had served in the
post for 13 months.
There were numerous witness accounts of the incident that took place very
early Friday morning, Feb. 4, in the 500 block of West Briar Place,
Assistant State's Attorney Maria McCarthy said. She added that several
witnesses have said they saw the taxi driver fall to the street. Jackson
allegedly got in the cab, backed up and accelerated forward, driving over
the victim's body. A female bystander ran to the cabbie's aid, but jumped
out of the way when she allegedly saw the taxi's reverse lights. Jackson
then allegedly backed over the victim, put the car in forward, and drove
over Paryani a third time, dragging him a short distance, McCarthy said. The
attacker then sped off in the cab and crashed it nearby on Broadway.
Paryani, 61, died of multiple injuries, including lacerations of the chest
and heart. He was declared dead at 12:20 a.m. at Illinois Masonic Hospital,
McCarthy stated. He leaves a wife and four children.
Jackson went to police later on Friday after contacting his attorneys. He
was formally charged on Sunday.
Jackson's next court appearance is scheduled for Feb. 24."
</>
DDT Filled Mormons
wrote:
>On 29/07/05 10:39, in article qoqje11pbi7a6ungh...@4ax.com,
>"Martin" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:54:52 +0200, B Vaughan<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:20:26 +0200, Mxsmanic <mxsm...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... Drug use has not traditionally been
>>>> the problem in France (or Europe) that it is in the USA ...
>>>
>>> I guess you haven't spent much time in Amsterdam.
>>
>> There are more than 250,000 cocaine addicts in UK.
>
>The biggest problem right now in the US is "speed". It is largely
>a working class white drug which has not attracted a lot of attention
>by the general public.
I tried "speed" a few years back. A horrible, horrible drug that I
would never think of trying again. I'm not against drugs on the whole,
but they should at least be better than that shit.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
DDT Filled Mormons
wrote:
How can you believe your experience is representative of 'Europe'?
Earl Evleth
"Mxsmanic" <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are laws against murder also an attempt to control blacks? After all,
> murders in the U.S. are disproportionately represented by blacks
> killing other blacks, IIRC.
Whites only care about murder if Whites are killed.
Black-on-black murders were not considered a problem and even classed as
"misdemeanor murders" in some regions of the USA.
"Misdemeanor murders" are a special class of murders of people we
collectively don't care about. This lack of respect contributes
to making prostitutes the victims of serial murderers. One southern
law man is quoted as saying "if a White kills a White, that is murder,
if a Black kills a White, that is also murder but if the Black kills
a Black, that is one less nigger". So the Black-on-Black murder statistics
are not socially significant except to use as still another weapon against
Blacks
But the one thing about social neglect is that is has a compound interest
rate.
Earl Evleth
SSoGe.10694$oZ....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net, "Gregory Morrow"
<gregorymorrowEMERGENCY...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Earl Evleth wrote:
>
> "Crystal Meth" is a real big problem in some of the gay communities here in
> the states (it's a popular "club drug"), some really prominent members of
> the community in Chicago frex have seriously screwed up their lives. These
> guys are white, upscale, etc:
Amphetimes are like other drugs in their being touted early on as good drugs
and then turn "rotten". The stuff was used medicinally a lot in the 1950s,
prescribed as diet pills etc. I know one college professor who died in the
1950s from taking the stuff.
I'd rank it more dangerous than heroine or cocaine. But that is
argumentative
Sarah Banick
"Earl Evleth" <evl...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:BF0FCDFC.742C5%> The
> a working class white drug which has not attracted a lot of attention
> by the general public. Part of the American "war on drugs" has
> been effectively an attempt at socially controlling America's Blacks.
> The legal sanctions against cocaine possession is much higher for crack
> (used by Blacks) than powder cocaine (used by Whites). It was once
> estimated something like 80% of the cocaine users in the LA area
> are White, but the persons arrested are mostly Blacks.
>
>
Crystal meth is the biggest problem -- it's cheap and easy to make from
common cold tablets. States are now regulating sales of things like Sudafed,
etc.
As far as race goes, it's hit the rural areas the worst. It's not an urban
(read "black") drug.
cho...@socal.rr.com
into patches of trouble, here and there, but you shold have no more
trouble doing tourist stuff in London, Paris, etc. than you would in
New York or San Francisco, etc.)
Parts of Germany (especially east of Berlin) and Eastern Europe
might be difficult, especially in rural areas. (Neo-Nazi resurgence).
There have reportedly been problems in Dublin (city) and parts of
Sicily, as well.
Russia could be trouble for anyone who doesn't look Russian.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Earl Evleth wrote:
> On 29/07/05 12:52, in article 9i2ke198pglgghsq8...@4ax.com,
> "Mxsmanic" <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Are laws against murder also an attempt to control blacks? After all,
>>murders in the U.S. are disproportionately represented by blacks
>>killing other blacks, IIRC.
>
>
> Whites only care about murder if Whites are killed.
Earl, I think you've lived away from your native land too
long - what you say may once have been true, but times have
changed in the last fifty years! I think the "caring"
nowadays has more to do with the victim's cultural standing
than his/her skin color. (People are less concerned about
the death of a homeless person or a criminal than of an
upstanding citizen, but it's no longer assumed that the
former are black, or the latter white.)
B Vaughan
>On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:51:20 +0200, Mxsmanic <mxsm...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>Probably mutual with the local population.
>Amsterdam is a lovely place. It's a pity it caters for the drug habits
>of Brits, Germans, Italians and French.
There are plenty of Dutch drug addicts as well. I used to commute
between Rotterdam and the Hague every day, and I never saw so many
stoned out people in any other place I've lived. These were not drug
tourists. I once saw a young girl go into a nod and pass out. Her
companions ditched her and went to another part of the car, I guess so
they wouldn't be associated with her. (They were high as well, but
still able to walk.) I considered drawing the conductor's attention,
as I was afraid she might be in real danger. I decided to wait until I
saw some more serious signs of trouble, partly because I wasn't sure
how her companions would react if I interfered. After a while, her
friends reached their stop and managed to rouse the girl enough to get
her off the train.
Go Fig
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:08:07 +0200, Martin <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:51:20 +0200, Mxsmanic <mxsm...@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>B Vaughan writes:
> >>
> >>> I guess you haven't spent much time in Amsterdam.
> >>
> >>Amsterdam is not representative of Europe as a whole.
> >>
> >>I have been to Amsterdam, but only briefly. Even so, I was there
> >>longer than I wished to be.
> >
> >Probably mutual with the local population.
> >Amsterdam is a lovely place. It's a pity it caters for the drug habits
> >of Brits, Germans, Italians and French.
>
> There are plenty of Dutch drug addicts as well. I used to commute
> between Rotterdam and the Hague every day, and I never saw so many
> stoned out people in any other place I've lived.
Many use to talk about Milan's 'needle park', but Zurich in the early
80s was the worst I ever saw.
jay
Fri Jul 29, 2005
mailto:go...@mac.com
Mxsmanic
> On 29/07/05 12:52, in article 9i2ke198pglgghsq8...@4ax.com,
> "Mxsmanic" <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Are laws against murder also an attempt to control blacks? After all,
> > murders in the U.S. are disproportionately represented by blacks
> > killing other blacks, IIRC.
>
> Whites only care about murder if Whites are killed.
You haven't answered my question. Are laws against murder also an
attempt to control blacks?
> Black-on-black murders were not considered a problem and even classed as
> "misdemeanor murders" in some regions of the USA.
Which regions?
Mxsmanic
> Amphetimes are like other drugs in their being touted early on as good drugs
> and then turn "rotten". The stuff was used medicinally a lot in the 1950s,
> prescribed as diet pills etc. I know one college professor who died in the
> 1950s from taking the stuff.
>
> I'd rank it more dangerous than heroine or cocaine. But that is
> argumentative
Most drugs are harmless when used properly, and dangerous when used
improperly. You can die from drinking alcohol and then taking
Tylenol.
Mxsmanic
> Speed? Earl, once again I fear you're making up things about the U.S.
> Crystal meth is the biggest problem ...
Methamphetamine is a form of speed.
Mxsmanic
> Probably mutual with the local population.
I doubt that the local population registered my presence.
Mxsmanic
> I once saw a young girl go into a nod and pass out. Her
> companions ditched her and went to another part of the car, I guess so
> they wouldn't be associated with her. (They were high as well, but
> still able to walk.) I considered drawing the conductor's attention,
> as I was afraid she might be in real danger. I decided to wait until I
> saw some more serious signs of trouble ...
What would count as a "real" sign of trouble?
Mxsmanic
> How can you believe your experience is representative of 'Europe'?
It is statistically likely to be.
No Spam
news:p2cle1puiisjm0vac...@4ax.com...
> DDT Filled Mormons writes:
>
>> How can you believe your experience is representative of 'Europe'?
>
> It is statistically likely to be.
Please cite the statistics.
No Spam
Wearing hiking boots with red socks and a tie,
living on soda pop and boxes of cookies, and
living in a broom cupboard.
Alfred Molon
> and there's Mixi saying that there is no racial discrimination in
> France.
I have no reference for that (know of no scientific study), but it's my
impression that overall there is less racism in Europe than in the US.
There is for instance no government-mandated reverse discrimination in
Europe, as there is in the USA, which indicates that the USA have a
problem in this area, while it's not much of an issue in Europe.
--
Alfred Molon
http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from China, Myanmar, Brunei,
Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Germany, Austria,
Prague, Budapest, Singapore and Portugal
Markku Grönroos
"Alfred Molon" <alfredREM...@yahoo.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:MPG.1d550ffa4...@news.supernews.com...
> In article <7tbhe1t1a9hopf962...@4ax.com>, Martin says...
>
>> and there's Mixi saying that there is no racial discrimination in
>> France.
>
> I have no reference for that (know of no scientific study), but it's my
> impression that overall there is less racism in Europe than in the US.
>
> There is for instance no government-mandated reverse discrimination in
> Europe, as there is in the USA, which indicates that the USA have a
Bull. For instance in Finland the Swedish speaking portion has quotas to
access universities.
Alfred Molon
says...
> Bull. For instance in Finland the Swedish speaking portion has quotas to
> access universities.
But these are not racial quotas - everywhere in Europe ethnic minorities
have special rights, but this has nothing to do with race.
Mxsmanic
> Makes no difference whatsoever!
You can change your nationality or your language. You can't change
your race.
> Any quotas are wrong and counterproductive in the long term.
I agree.
Mxsmanic
> Please cite the statistics.
Any random sample of a population is more likely to be representative
than not.
DDT Filled Mormons
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco
> In article <7tbhe1t1a9hopf962...@4ax.com>, Martin says...
>
> > and there's Mixi saying that there is no racial discrimination in
> > France.
>
> I have no reference for that (know of no scientific study), but it's my
> impression that overall there is less racism in Europe than in the US.
>
> There is for instance no government-mandated reverse discrimination in
> Europe, as there is in the USA, which indicates that the USA have a
> problem in this area, while it's not much of an issue in Europe.
That's as ludicrous as suggesting that if a company doesn't have a
sexual discrimination policy, they don't have any problem with sexual
discrimination.
The US has had these policies for the last three decades to try and
address some of the inequities. Whether they've worked is a constant
matter of debate. There's plenty of racism to go around in Europe.
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Markku Grönroos
"Alfred Molon" <alfredREM...@yahoo.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:MPG.1d554b66c...@news.supernews.com...
> Bull. For instance in Finland the Swedish speaking portion has quotas to
> access universities.
But these are not racial quotas - everywhere in Europe ethnic minorities
have special rights, but this has nothing to do with race.
Perhaps not. However, it works out just like "racism". Why do you think
someone needs "special" rights in Europe ?
cho...@socal.rr.com
Markku Grönroos wrote:
> "Alfred Molon" <alfredREM...@yahoo.com> kirjoitti
> viestissä:MPG.1d554b66c...@news.supernews.com...
> In article <dcf3o2$f4j$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>, Markku Grönroos
> says...
>
> > Bull. For instance in Finland the Swedish speaking portion has quotas to
> > access universities.
>
> But these are not racial quotas - everywhere in Europe ethnic minorities
> have special rights, but this has nothing to do with race.
Same sort of idea though. As far as I know in the US, we don't have
*language group* quotas to get into universities. Maybe in Canada or
Belgium?
Even in the US, out and out ethnic quotas are falling out of favor.
Instead,
institutions try to diversify by improved outreach, taking the top x%
of all schools so that even the most disadvantages have a chance by
working hard in their particular situation, etc.
Alfred Molon
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco
says...
> That's as ludicrous as suggesting that if a company doesn't have a
> sexual discrimination policy, they don't have any problem with sexual
> discrimination.
Who is talking about sexual discrimination here ?
Alfred Molon
says...
> Perhaps not. However, it works out just like "racism". Why do you think
> someone needs "special" rights in Europe ?
Ethnic minorities need special rights to preserve their culture,
language etc. The right to have schools, institutions, TV channels in
their own language, some degree of self-government and so on. Without
these special rights minorities would cease to exist.