Flight Deck Visit
Andrea Anderson
son and I to visit the flight crew on the flight deck, mid-flight. The
view was breathtaking. We had not expressed any desire to do this. I
believe that having a quiet, well-behaved three year old on a lengthy
cross-country flight so astonished the attendants that they felt some
type of 'thank you' was in order. If you can arrange a visit to the
'cockpit', we highly recommend it...it makes for 'sweet dreams' at
night.
Brian Cherkas
: If you can arrange a visit to the
: 'cockpit', we highly recommend it...it makes for 'sweet dreams' at
: night.
It sure would be nice to have passengers up to the cockpit during
midflight, however current FAA regulations do not allow this. Doing this
could put the flight crew's jobs in jeapordy.
I've heard of cockpit visits in many non-American carriers though.
---- ------------------------
Brian Cherkas |
che...@crl.com |
CI$-73644,1444 |
-----------------------------
Valerie Wells
year old son can fly home to see his dear old mom? He lives in Vancouver,
B.C. and I live in Charlottetown, P.E.I. ... he could depart from Oregon or
Washington and end up anywhere on the Eastern Seaboard and make his way up
by bus the rest of the way. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Valerie.
Dirk Hohndel
: On a Canadian airline last fall, a flight attendant invited my husband,
I can only agree. Going from Frankfurt to DFW via LGW on British Airways
this week I visited the flight deck on both legs (first was a 737-400,
second a DC-10) and can only say poor you if you've never been there.
It was fantastic.
The pilots of the 737 even explained some of the instruments and computers to
me (it was a rather new one with glass cockpit...)
Dirk
Richard Sun
the flight, and the flight crew didn't bother closing the door for the
whole flight. I was sitting in the passenger seat right behind them,
so I basically got to see everything from start to finish. Yes, this
was an American carrier that was breaking FAA rules, but I didn't
complain.
Anders Pedersen
: On one airline (which I won't name), I was the only passenger on board
Is it breaking the rules? I am not sure that the door to the cockpit must
be closed during flight. As an example most of the commuters don't have
doors (1900, F27 etc.). Granted they fly under 135 rules and not 121.
there might be some differences there.
Anders
Richard Sun
>As an example most of the commuters don't have
>doors (1900, F27 etc.).
Don't know the F27, but the Beechcraft 1900's I've been on have doors.
BMcC...@pop.com
be closed during flight>>
It is most assuredly a rule violation. Instituted when the hijackings started
in the '70's.
Brian
--
Message sent via DigitalPopcorn <in...@pop.com> * Los Angeles
Stephan Piel
: <<Is it breaking the rules? I am not sure that the door to the cockpit must
: be closed during flight>>
: It is most assuredly a rule violation. Instituted when the hijackings started
: in the '70's.
How does a closed door prevent a hijacking if the terrorist is armed?
Joel Spencer
Melbourne). Got to see all the computers and the Himalayas also!!!
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| Joel Spencer | "excusez-moi, je pense |
| Bull HN Worldwide Information Systems | ma bouchon d'essence |
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BENJAMIN BROOKER FRADKIN
ders Pedersen) writes:
>Richard Sun (dave...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) wrote:
>: On one airline (which I won't name), I was the only passenger on board
>: the flight, and the flight crew didn't bother closing the door for the
>: whole flight. I was sitting in the passenger seat right behind them,
>: so I basically got to see everything from start to finish. Yes, this
>: was an American carrier that was breaking FAA rules, but I didn't
>: complain.
>
>
lucky enough to spend two hours in the flight deck of a Quantas 747-400. I
was surprised they let me stay that long. I saw the sun rise in about five
minutes. It was a great experience but I can understand why the FAA doesn't
allow it.
Ben
Brian Cherkas
(Stephan Piel) wrote:
> : It is most assuredly a rule violation. Instituted when the hijackings started
> : in the '70's.
>
> How does a closed door prevent a hijacking if the terrorist is armed?
You would be surprised if you knew the number of hijackers which did not
gain access to the cockpit just by having the door closed and locked. It
won't always work, but surprisingly it has been a deterrent. But having the
cockpit door for hijackers is only one of the reasons. It is also meant to
keep passengers from distracting crew members during portions of the
flight.
--
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\--+
Anders Pedersen
Besides, most of the doors I have seen would not stand up to a person that
really want to get in. They are more there to keep the noise from the cabin
out of the cabin. If it is a violation, tell me the right FAR and I will
look it up. I don't think I have a complet set of the 121 rules at home,
but I can check 135 rules.
Even the locks on those doors can easily be circumvented by anybody in about
2 seconds, 3 if a bumpy ride.
Anders
GFK
Brian Cherkas
: Besides, most of the doors I have seen would not stand up to a person that
: really want to get in. They are more there to keep the noise from the cabin
: out of the cabin. If it is a violation, tell me the right FAR and I will
: look it up. I don't think I have a complet set of the 121 rules at home,
: but I can check 135 rules.
: Even the locks on those doors can easily be circumvented by anybody in about
: 2 seconds, 3 if a bumpy ride.
There are a couple of 121 regulations that pertain to this:
FAR 121.547 - Admission to flight deck.
(a)No person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft
unless the person being admitted is-
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, or an authorized representative of the
National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
(3) An employee of the United States, a certificate holder, or an
aeronautical enterprise who has the permission of the pilot in command
AND whose duties are such that admission to the flight deck is necessary
or advantageous for safe operations; or
(4) Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command and is
specifically authorized by the certificate holder management AND by the
Administrator.
Subparagraph (2) of this paragraph does not limit the emergency authority
of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flight deck in the
interest of safety.
Also FAR 121.587 which talks about "Closing and locking of flight crew
compartment door" says:
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, the pilot in
command of a large airplane carrying passengers shall ensure that the
door separating the flight crew compartment is closed and locked during
the flight.
(b) The provisions of paragraph (a) of this section do not apply-
(1) During takeoff and landing if the crew compartment door is the means
of access to a required passenger emergency exit or a floor level exit; or
(2) At any time that it is necessary to provide access to the flight
crew or passenger compartment, to a crewmember in the performance of his
duties or for a person authorized admission to the flight crew
compartment under paragraph 121.547.
This pretty much sums it up.
--
Brian Cherkas
che...@crl.com
CIS-73644,1444
Anders Pedersen
Hans van der Veen
|> On one airline (which I won't name), I was the only passenger on board
|> the flight, and the flight crew didn't bother closing the door for the
|> whole flight. I was sitting in the passenger seat right behind them,
|> so I basically got to see everything from start to finish. Yes, this
|> was an American carrier that was breaking FAA rules, but I didn't
|> complain.
As a matter of fact, by being nice to stewardesses, I've been able to visit
the cockpits of several planes: B747-400 (more than once), an 'old' B747
(with analog instruments), F50 (great!). Ususally I was allowed to stay for
a while, once up to two hours!
None of these visits was on an American carrier or on a flight to/from/in
the USA though.
If you get the chance, grab it! It's a wonderful experience...
--
___
__/ \__________ Hans van der Veen <vdv...@cs.utwente.nl>
| \___/ | University of Twente tfx. +31 53 333815
|___ __ ___ | Tele-Informatics & Open Systems tel. +31 53 893747
| | | / \ (__ | P.O. Box 217 NL-7500 AE Enschede The Netherlands
| | | \__/ ___) |
|_________________| "The English definition of hell is a place where [...]
the common language is Dutch." Philip Howard
Brian Cherkas
Traxler) wrote:
> >It sure would be nice to have passengers up to the cockpit during
> >midflight, however current FAA regulations do not allow this. Doing this
> >could put the flight crew's jobs in jeapordy.
>
> I once was allowed to sit on the third seat of the cockpit in a MD-80 (or
> was it a MD-87?) during the entire flight, including start and landing.
> I just asked a flight attandent before take-off. She asked me whether I
> had drank any alcohol before :-) and as I didn't the pilot allowed it.
> Did this hurt any safety or whatever rules?
Distraction is possibly introduced in the cockpit any time another
non-crewmember is in there. This is because a passenger may not know when
the "critical" times of flight are i.e. descending or ascending to a newly
assigned altitude, listening on the radio for proper air traffic vectors,
taxi, take-off, and landing, and all operations of high density traffic
areas looking for other air traffic.
The need to explain things to a passenger may introduce one distraction.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to use pilot discretion and allow a
passenger to stay in the cockpit (although currently disallowed), just that
safety to the entire airplane and passengers may be degraded - although
possibly only slightly, depending on many factors.
Have you ever been the driver of a car and missed a turn somewhere because
a passenger in your car distracted you with a conversation? - It could
happen in an aircraft.
I do feel the feds should lighten up on this rule to some degree, but it's
not likely to happen.
> --
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Stefan Traxler, phone: ++49-89-713826 | "Let me assure you that at no |
> | Stiftsbogen 45, 81375 Munich, Germany | time during my 75 lunar orbits |
> +---------------------------------------+ did i see a Bavarian behind |
> | privat: mad...@lucky.muc.de | the moon." |
> | business: dehx...@ibmmail.com | Lt.Col. Al Worden, Apollo 15 |
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
--
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0=/ || 0=/ | Brian Cherkas
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\--+
Jay Vassos-Libove
> I once was allowed to sit on the third seat of the cockpit in a MD-80 (or
> was it a MD-87?) during the entire flight, including start and landing.
> I just asked a flight attandent before take-off. She asked me whether I
> had drank any alcohol before :-) and as I didn't the pilot allowed it.
> Did this hurt any safety or whatever rules?
Distraction is possibly introduced in the cockpit any time another
non-crewmember is in there. This is because a passenger may not know when
the "critical" times of flight are i.e. descending or ascending to a newly
assigned altitude, listening on the radio for proper air traffic vectors,
taxi, take-off, and landing, and all operations of high density traffic
areas looking for other air traffic.
The need to explain things to a passenger may introduce one distraction.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to use pilot discretion and allow a
passenger to stay in the cockpit (although currently disallowed), just that
safety to the entire airplane and passengers may be degraded - although
possibly only slightly, depending on many factors.
Have you ever been the driver of a car and missed a turn somewhere because
a passenger in your car distracted you with a conversation? - It could
happen in an aircraft.
Do note please that there is only one driver in a car, and
any distraction to that driver must cause a degradation in
the safety of the trip ...
But, in all passenger aircraft, there are two equivalent
pilots' positions.
When I sat in the cockpit of an Aer Lingus 747 for a flight
from Shannon to JFK, one of the two pilots' positions was
always occupied by someone actively flying the plane (in the
sense of only devoting his attention to the controls, and not
to me). On a small number of occasions, the other pilot (who
was talking with me) would excuse himseld and turn back to
the controls to assist in some maneuver or communication that
required more than the currently active pilot.
Yes, especially if a visitor is ill-behaved or has bad
intentions, visits to the flight deck can degrade the safety
of the flight ... but with caution, and with extra hands available
for emergency control (there were five of us on the flight deck
that day, myself included), the risk can be minimized.
Is it necessary to allow passengers/visitors to the flight deck?
No, of course not. Does it buy the airline much? Only good
will. (Lots of it, in my case :} ).
--
Jay Vassos-Libove lib...@alf.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation decwrl!alf.dec.com!libove
Atlanta Customer Support Center Opinions? They're mine, mine, all mine!
Alpharetta, Georgia and D.E.C. Can't have 'em!
Brian Cherkas
lib...@libove.alf.dec.com (Jay Vassos-Libove) wrote:
>
> But, in all passenger aircraft, there are two equivalent
> pilots' positions.
This is not really true. There is not two equivalent pilot positions in
commercial aircraft. The are two distinct ones. Flying pilot and non-flying
pilot. Both have two distinct duties while flying an aircraft.
Depending on the phase of flight, one or both pilots are needed to properly
operate the aircraft. Both are responsible for listening to communications
although one is responsible for responding. Both pilots are responsible for
navagating and tuning radios. The list goes on, but what it comes down to
is both pilots are needed to safely operate an aircraft at any point in
time. I have flown commercially in large aircraft (as a pilot) for many
years and found most mistakes in the cockpit originate from outside
distractions - i.e. talking to flight attendants or others.
> When I sat in the cockpit of an Aer Lingus 747 for a flight
> from Shannon to JFK, one of the two pilots' positions was
> always occupied by someone actively flying the plane (in the
> sense of only devoting his attention to the controls, and not
> to me).
Again, the operating the controls of the aircraft is not so much the
problem as being able to plan ahead, listen to air traffic control, and
attend to operational duties while not being distracted.
>
> Is it necessary to allow passengers/visitors to the flight deck?
> No, of course not. Does it buy the airline much? Only good
> will. (Lots of it, in my case :} ).
I'm certainly glad you had your cockpit visit, and I wish many could do the
same (really), however as I said in a previous post, the airline (speaking
for Part 121 air carriers) has no say in the matter - it comes from a
higher authority, the FAA.
Brian.
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Anders Pedersen
: I once was allowed to sit on the third seat of the cockpit in a MD-80 (or
: flight (Stuttgart to Munich, approx. 150 miles), but it was *very* impressing.
: Did this hurt any safety or whatever rules?
Should not be any breaking of rules in Germany, or any other European
country as far as I know. I have pesonally had countless flight in the
cockpit in Europe.
Safety? Some people will argue otherwise, but I don't think it will degrade
safety. Depends how good a briefing the pilots did on emergency procedures.
Like when you sit on the jump seat in the MD-80series (and DC-9) how to
quickly get out of it and stow it so you can get out in case of an
emergency.
But it's a good experience, even in clouds. I remember the flights I did
over eastern Europe during the 80s, seing how polutted it really was, made
me understand the acid rain at home.
Anders Pedersen
currently North Dakota
Guy Derose
It is true that the FAA prohibits flight deck visitation during
flight, but leaving the _door_ to the flight deck open
(at least on commuter flights) is subject to the operating
rules of the _carrier_, not the FARs.
--
Guy A. DeRose
Physicist, PP-ASEL, Homebrewer (NOT necessarily in that order)
Snow Kent
to engine shutdown on an Air Canada A320 (Fin Nbr 230) from YYZ-LAX.
I went up to the flight deck during boarding and was talking to the flight
crew about the 320, when the captain invited me up for the remainder,
provided an official jumpseat rider didn't need the seat.
I am a licensed pilot (550 hrs, instrument multi), studying for the
dispatchers license.
I will never forget as long as I live:
we had 3 aircraft in front of us at 30 mile intervals going into LAX
that evening, all contrailing. A TW L10 60 miles ahead, someones B747
30 ahead at FL350 (we were at FL390), and a Northwest B727 abeam of us
at FL350 (just a bit left of us). All heading into a beautiful sunset.
As we flew over the grand canyon, center approved a u-turn over the
canyon at FL390 so both sides of the jet got a view.
Needless to say, I LOVE Air Canada!
- - - - -
DOUGLAS SNOW
Part 121 Dispatcher gonna-be
E-mail SNO...@DELPHI.COM
"As long as it is on MEL, you're OK, OK?"
Robert Dorsett
> Distraction is possibly introduced in the cockpit any time another
> non-crewmember is in there. This is because a passenger may not know when
> the "critical" times of flight are i.e. descending or ascending to a newly
> assigned altitude, listening on the radio for proper air traffic vectors,
> taxi, take-off, and landing, and all operations of high density traffic
> areas looking for other air traffic.
>
> The need to explain things to a passenger may introduce one distraction.
>
> I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to use pilot discretion and allow a
> passenger to stay in the cockpit (although currently disallowed), just that
> safety to the entire airplane and passengers may be degraded - although
> possibly only slightly, depending on many factors.
I've got 500+ hours of jumpseat time, and don't ever recall being much of a
distraction. There are only three rules to follow: (1) keep your mouth shut,
(2) if you must talk, save the questions for cruise, and (3) if the radio
starts blaring, go to rule (1). :-)
--
Robert Dorsett
r...@netcom.com
Keith Barr
Anders Pedersen <pede...@cs.UND.NoDak.Edu> wrote:
>Besides, most of the doors I have seen would not stand up to a person that
>really want to get in. They are more there to keep the noise from the cabin
>out of the cabin. If it is a violation, tell me the right FAR and I will
>look it up. I don't think I have a complet set of the 121 rules at home,
>but I can check 135 rules.
from:
PART 121--CERTIFICATION AND OPERATIONS: DOMESTIC, FLAG, AND
SUPPLEMENTAL AIR CARRIERS AND COMMERCIAL OPERATORS OF LARGE
AIRCRAFT
Sec. 121.587 Closing and locking of flight crew compartment door.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, the pilot in
command of a large airplane carrying passengers shall ensure that the door
separating the flight crew compartment from the passenger compartment is
closed and locked during flight.
(b) The provisions of paragraph (a) of this section do not apply--
(1) During takeoff and landing if the crew compartment door is the means of
access to a required passenger emergency exit or a floor level exit; or
(2) At any time that it is necessary to provide access to the flight crew
or passenger compartment, to a crewmember in the performance of his duties or
for a person authorized admission to the flight crew compartment under Sec.
121.547.
[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19219, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 121-14, 30 FR
15655, Dec. 18, 1965] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Notice it looks as those these rules were in effect before hijacking became
popular in the 70's.
_____________________________ _____
| Keith Barr \ \ \__ _____
| ba...@ncar.ucar.edu \___________\ \/_______\___\_____________
| Commercial/AS&MEL/Inst/A&IGI / ( /_/ ..................... `-.
|_____________________________/ `-----------,----,--------------'
_/____/
Mark IGNATIV
I would like to add that allowing passengers to the cockpit may
sometimes add to the safety of passenger in the aircraft. I was
on a ( very ) long 14 hour flight from Hong Kong to London which
flew over the former CIS . I asked a hostess if I could visit the
cockpit , and they let me . For all of the time I was there
the pilots had the flight on cruise control , an relly had little to
do but sit there and watch . It was night and pilots , though trained ,
are humans like everyone else . So they can feel bored and tired also
on their shift on such a flight . An extra person present there
a car or bus at night , it helps keep people alert - though it is much more
important to have good sleep before .
It should not be allowed when the pilots are busy or where there is
bad weather or turbulence . It is true that at times it can be
an unecessary way to increse ( slightly ) degradation in
the safety of the trip but it can be left to the pilots discretion.
I have heard that the recent Aeroflot crash on the Hong Kong - Moscow
flight was due to the pilot actually letting his son take control
of the plane and that there were more children in the cockpit at
the time . Has anyone any more news about this ?
Mark.