SPOILER - Ladies Short
Anne
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Early reports say only Slutskaya, Suguri and Onda skated clean.
The marks are up at icecalc and they are ugly. Except for Irina,
who scored 2 6.0s for presentation.
FPl. Name Nat. Points QA QB SP FS
1 Irina SLUTSKAYA RUS 1.0 1 1
2 Fumie SUGURI JPN 2.0 2 2
3 Michelle KWAN USA 2.2 1 3
4 Yoshie ONDA JPN 3.6 3 4
5 Sasha COHEN USA 3.8 2 5
6 Elena LIASHENKO UKR 5.2 4 6
7 Julia SEBESTYEN HUN 5.4 3 7
8 Viktoria VOLCHKOVA RUS 8.4 9 8
9 Tatiana MALININA UZB 8.6 5 11
10 Silvia FONTANA ITA 8.8 7 10
11 Zuzana BABIAKOVA SVK 9.8 11 9
12 Susanna POYKIO FIN 10.2 6 13
13 Laetitia HUBERT FRA 10.4 8 12
14 Jennifer ROBINSON CAN 10.4 5 14
15 Jennifer KIRK USA 10.6 4 15
16 Idora HEGEL CRO 13.6 10 16
17 Marta ANDRADE ESP 15.0 12 17
18 Miriam MANZANO AUS 16.0 13 18
19 Julia SOLDATOVA BLR 16.0 7 22
20 Dan FANG CHN 16.2 12 19
21 Julia LAUTOWA AUT 16.2 9 21
22 Vanessa GIUNCHI ITA 17.6 14 20
23 Asa PERSSON SWE 18.2 11 23
24 Galina MANIACHENKO UKR 18.4 10 24
Susan Stone Wilbanks
"Anne" <an...@unr.edu> wrote in message news:3C9AD5A6...@unr.edu...
I just saw that, too. 6.0's? For presentation? For Slutskaya? Unless
she's somehow turned into a female Yagudin in the past few weeks, that
cheapens the meaning of a 6.0.
(I know, the marks are placeholders. But no judge was even remotely boxed
in.)
--Susan
michael farris
Anne wrote:
Eeeewwww, great for Sluckaja but not so good for Kwan, isn't she now
in the same position Slute was in Europeans? That is winning the free
won't be enough, she'd have to beat Slute by two places? Irina fell
in her SP in Euros, was I believe in third going into the LP (which
she won) but lost the title to Bute, who was second in the LP. If
Slute does win this, which seems almost certain now, I hope she has
the LP of her life instead of finishing second to Kwan and winning
that way.
-michael farris (who cannot find nasty enough words to express his
disgust with counting the qualifying round)
Dunn
Susan, I agree, actually I think Yags abundance of 6.0s was a bit inflated too.
lefty
> > Early reports say only Slutskaya, Suguri and Onda skated clean.
> > The marks are up at icecalc and they are ugly. Except for Irina,
> > who scored 2 6.0s for presentation.
>
> I just saw that, too. 6.0's? For presentation? For Slutskaya? Unless
> she's somehow turned into a female Yagudin in the past few weeks, that
> cheapens the meaning of a 6.0.
>
> (I know, the marks are placeholders. But no judge was even remotely boxed
> in.)
Though it doesn't show the countries they represent, Icecalc shows
that those 6.0's came from judges Igor DOLGUSHIN and Irina
ABSALIAMOVA.
I'd say it's a safe bet they're "eastern bloc", so to speak.
I am shocked. shocked, I tell you! :-)
Roaz
>From: Anne an...@unr.edu
>Date: 3/21/2002 11:12 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <3C9AD5A6...@unr.edu>
Good for Fumie! I hope she gets a medal.
> 3 Michelle KWAN USA 2.2 1 3
Oh dear. Well, she won from this position a couple of years ago.
> 4 Yoshie ONDA JPN 3.6 3 4
> 5 Sasha COHEN USA 3.8 2 5
This finish order rocks my world.
> 6 Elena LIASHENKO UKR 5.2 4 6
> 7 Julia SEBESTYEN HUN 5.4 3 7
> 8 Viktoria VOLCHKOVA RUS 8.4 9 8
Wow! Way to come back from a really bad qual round placement.
> 9 Tatiana MALININA UZB 8.6 5 11
Ditto.
>10 Silvia FONTANA ITA 8.8 7 10
>11 Zuzana BABIAKOVA SVK 9.8 11 9
>12 Susanna POYKIO FIN 10.2 6 13
>13 Laetitia HUBERT FRA 10.4 8 12
>14 Jennifer ROBINSON CAN 10.4 5 14
>15 Jennifer KIRK USA 10.6 4 15
Re the Jennifers...oh dear. :(
DesertRoaz
Frame of reference is everything.
Roaz
>From: "Susan Stone Wilbanks" stonew...@attbi.com
>Date: 3/21/2002 11:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <35Bm8.98787$uA5....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>
She has an excellent short program. I don't think it cheapens the 6.0.
michael farris
Roaz wrote:
me too, it would be Japan's first two medal championships, right?
>
> > 3 Michelle KWAN USA 2.2 1 3
>
> Oh dear. Well, she won from this position a couple of years ago.
But she doesn't control her own destiny. Even if she wins the LP (no
guarantee) Slute can be second and win the gold overall (thank you
qualifying round). Can you imagine Slute third or lower in the LP, I
can't, even if she zambonies, I can't imagine the bloc putting her
lower than 2nd.
-michael farris
Tracy Johnson
For presentation marks? I can see 6.0s for tech marks for Irina on a great
day, but 6.0 for presentation is a little bewildering, with the "pumping" she
does to gain speed and what not. It'll be interested to watch the program and
see if I agree. I'm surprised, to say the least, but I guess you never know
until you've seen it...
Tracy
BottomLineGuySk8
>Date: 03/22/2002 5:45 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <3C9B0B64...@amu.edu.pl>
Michael -
Thanks for the opinions. But, what's the purpose of "Sluckaja"? It just
strikes me as pretentious, particular when you go on to call her Slute and
mention Bute.
I'll confess I'm iritable today, but I've noticed this before.
Bottom Line Guy (hoping he's missing something reasonable and obvious)
Roaz
>But she doesn't control her own destiny. Even if she wins the LP (no
>guarantee) Slute can be second and win the gold overall (thank you
>qualifying round).
Yes, I know. It was the same way when Kwan won two years ago.
Bruce Scott TOK
BottomLineGuySk8 <bottomli...@aol.com> wrote:
>Michael -
>
>Thanks for the opinions. But, what's the purpose of "Sluckaja"? It just
>strikes me as pretentious, particular when you go on to call her Slute and
>mention Bute.
He's posting from Poland... the "ck" is how they write "tsk" there. The
"j" is the Central/Eastern European for "y". So in German you get
Slutskaja, and in Poland "Sluckaja".
"Gretsky" is written "Grecki" or "Gorecki" in Central Europe, for
example (sometimes there is an inverted hat over the "c").
--
cu,
Bruce
drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
Robert Dister
eagle...@hotmail.com (lefty) wrote:
Notice that Mr. DOLGUSHIN is the Judge No.6 who put Suguri in 4th in the
SP (every other judge had her 2nd), while putting Liashenko 3rd (every
other judge had her 6th or lower). What on earth has Fumie Suguri done
to get on the S-list of Russian skating judges? First, Danilenko boinks
her in the Olympics, and now we apparently have her clone Igor Dolgushin
doing the same thing. Now that only Slute and Suguri control their own
destinies for the Gold, I wonder what Slute would have to do to lose
this competition. Slute skated a mediocre Olympics against a reigning
world Bronze medalist who landed two 3-3 combos, and yet 3 Warsaw Pact
judges and their Danish friend put her first. It seems like Slute would
have to skate a truly grotesque performance agains a clean one by Suguri
to not win. I wonder if the Warsaw Pact judges will amuse themselves by
putting Kwan and Slute 1-2 in the LP so they can bank some "fairness
points" for the future, while still putting Slute on the podium. Here's
hoping that Slute actually earns her near-inevitable Gold medal. Should
be interesting.
Bob
Sally4sbb
>putting Kwan and Slute 1-2 in the LP so they can bank some "fairness
>points" for the future, while still putting Slute on the podium. Here's
>hoping that Slute actually earns her near-inevitable Gold medal. Should
>be interesting.
>
Agreed (she says cynically).
SallyH (who, though not having seen the Ladies SP, but having read much,
doesn't see there is much to debate in terms of placement, but...6.0s, when the
judges weren't boxed in? Must be a h*ll of a skate).
Amy P
>Notice that Mr. DOLGUSHIN is the Judge No.6 who put Suguri in 4th in
the
>SP (every other judge had her 2nd)
It could have been worse -- like 10th. :P
>What on earth has Fumie Suguri done
>to get on the S-list of Russian skating judges?
Skate better than Russians? ;)
>I wonder what Slute would have to do to lose
>this competition.
Not show up? Kill Ottavio's dog? Renounce her citizenship?
>Slute skated a mediocre Olympics against a reigning
>world Bronze medalist who landed two 3-3 combos, and yet 3 Warsaw
Pact
>judges and their Danish friend put her first. .... Here's
>hoping that Slute actually earns her near-inevitable Gold medal.
I never understand that last sentiment from people. If I think the
fix might be in, I'd rather the skater would screw it up big time.
Then it would be obvious what the judges were doing and would keep
attention focused on this problem.
I wonder how a halfway decent Sarah would have fared in all this. And
I'm now hoping for a longshot Fumie win. (Besides, wouldn't that be
interesting -- Sarah and Fumie as 02 Oly and World gold medalists? :D)
amyp3
DG511
>Robert Dister wrote:
>>Notice that Mr. DOLGUSHIN is the Judge No.6 who put Suguri in 4th in
>the
>>SP (every other judge had her 2nd)
>
>It could have been worse -- like 10th. :P
>
>>What on earth has Fumie Suguri done
>>to get on the S-list of Russian skating judges?
>
>Skate better than Russians? ;)
>
>>I wonder what Slute would have to do to lose
>>this competition.
>
>Not show up? Kill Ottavio's dog? Renounce her citizenship?
If she didn't show up, they could still give her a special medal in Russia. If
she killed Speedy's dog, it would depend on whether it was an accident or on
purpose -- or whether Speedy actually cared about the dog. Renouncing her
citizenship is a mere technical issue that I would not expect the bloc to
recognize.
>>Slute skated a mediocre Olympics against a reigning
>>world Bronze medalist who landed two 3-3 combos, and yet 3 Warsaw
>Pact
>>judges and their Danish friend put her first. .... Here's
>>hoping that Slute actually earns her near-inevitable Gold medal.
>
>I never understand that last sentiment from people. If I think the
>fix might be in, I'd rather the skater would screw it up big time.
>Then it would be obvious what the judges were doing and would keep
>attention focused on this problem.
Absolutely! What would be interesting to see is something so compelling and
undeniably wrong that some nations decided to ditch the ISU and start a
parallel organization. What would happen to the ISU without money and support
from the U.S. and Canada, for example? I think it would be not very pretty.
>I wonder how a halfway decent Sarah would have fared in all this. And
>I'm now hoping for a longshot Fumie win. (Besides, wouldn't that be
>interesting -- Sarah and Fumie as 02 Oly and World gold medalists? :D)
>amyp3
>
Sarah and Fumie were my upset picks for the year, so I'd be happy with Fumie
winning Worlds -- except I really want Michelle to win it.
Daria
"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they fly by."
Douglas Adams
Roaz
>Sarah and Fumie were my upset picks for >the year,
A year ago, I predicted right here in this very forum that Sarah Hughes would
win the Olympics. It's scary to be right.
>so I'd be happy with Fumie
>winning Worlds -- except I really want >Michelle to win it.
>
I don't think the judges are crazy about Fumie, but she has my favorite long
program so I wouldn't mind a win by her, either.
Susan Stone Wilbanks
"Tracy Johnson" <tljo...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:3C9B6104...@shaw.ca...
> Roaz wrote:
>
> > >> *
> > >> *
> > >> *
> > >> *
> > >> *
> > >> *
> > >> *
> > >
Unless
> > >she's somehow turned into a female Yagudin in the past few weeks, that
> > >cheapens the meaning of a 6.0.
> > >
> >
> > She has an excellent short program. I don't think it cheapens the 6.0.
>
> For presentation marks? I can see 6.0s for tech marks for Irina on a great
> day, but 6.0 for presentation is a little bewildering, with the "pumping"
she
> does to gain speed and what not. It'll be interested to watch the program
and
> see if I agree. I'm surprised, to say the least, but I guess you never
know
> until you've seen it...
I've now seen it, and I still think the 6.0's were gifts. She skated as
well as she ever does, but she *still* telegraphs her jumps, pumps to gain
speed, doesn't seem to completely know what to do with her arms, and just
lacks that certain expressiveness and fire you see in Yagudin (whose 6.0's I
thought were justified).
And I also thought Cohen and Kwan were dinged more than they should've been
for their jump errors. When I saw the marks last night, I assumed both had
had truly disastrous wipe-out, butt-on-ice, program-disrupting falls. I
thought their tech marks should've been in the 5.4-5.6 range, given the
overall excellence of everything else they did.
I hate this panel. It's a travesty.
--Susan
k1ate
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> FPl. Name Nat. Points QA QB SP FS
> 1 Irina SLUTSKAYA RUS 1.0 1 1
> 2 Fumie SUGURI JPN 2.0 2 2
> 3 Michelle KWAN USA 2.2 1 3
> 4 Yoshie ONDA JPN 3.6 3 4
> 5 Sasha COHEN USA 3.8 2 5
As a long-time lurker and a first-time poster, I'm scared to be asking
this question-- if it is too "newbie", could you please point me
towards a board where it might be appropriate-- anyway here it is:
I just watched the short on ESPN. I thought Irina was placed *really*
high for presentation-- who doesn't-- but I was also surprised at
Sasha Cohen's low placement. Before you bash me for my favoritism,
could someone point out how her program was significantly worse than
Kwan or Onda's? Kwan stepped out, and I didn't think her presentatio
nwas as "on" as it sometimes is, having said that, I was suprised by
how low her technical marks were... Yoshie Onda had no obvious
"mistakes", but her presenation was horrendous and I thought her
footwork was a lot simpler than any other of the top 5.
Anyone care to enlighten me as to Sasha's placement-- I know she blew
the landing on the double axel, but what were the other significant
problems?
Carla Jenkins
the SP (every other judge had her 2nd), while putting Liashenko 3rd
(every other judge had her 6th or lower). What on earth has Fumie Suguri
done to get on the S-list of Russian skating judges? First, Danilenko
boinks her in the Olympics, and now we apparently have her clone Igor
Dolgushin doing the same thing. Now that only Slute and Suguri control
their own destinies for the Gold, I wonder what Slute would have to do
Fumie Suguri has done nothing to get on the S-list of Russian skating
judges. She is in second place.
As for Irina, repeat after me: "Ice is slippery. Much can happen
during a 4 minute program."
Carla
Susan Stone Wilbanks
"k1ate" <k1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:28b3473f.02032...@posting.google.com...
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> <snip>
> > FPl. Name Nat. Points QA QB SP FS
> > 1 Irina SLUTSKAYA RUS 1.0 1 1
> > 2 Fumie SUGURI JPN 2.0 2 2
> > 3 Michelle KWAN USA 2.2 1 3
> > 4 Yoshie ONDA JPN 3.6 3 4
> > 5 Sasha COHEN USA 3.8 2 5
> </snip>
>>
> the landing on the double axel, but what were the other significant
> problems?
I'm not the most expert person on the ng by any means, but I would
personally have placed Cohen ahead of Onda for sure. As for Kwan vs. Cohen,
their jump errors were similar, and neither one was too disruptive. I'd
have to go back and look at it element by element to decide who had the
better skate, but since Kwan generally has stronger edging and less of a
flutz, so I'd probably agree with putting her ahead of Cohen.
Correct me if I'm wrong, experts, but those not-quite-falls Kwan and Cohen
had would be about a 0.3 deduction, right? Because I'm still thinking their
tech marks were several tenths too low.
--Susan, who's having fun playing with what various combinations of
placements in the LP would do to the final result. I even figured out how
to make a Kwan-Cohen-Suguri podium! I'm enjoying the mental image, because
I know there's no way in Hades it'll happen!
Janice Schnell
>judges. She is in second place.
> As for Irina, repeat after me: "Ice is slippery. Much can happen
>during a 4 minute program."
> Carla
I think they are refering to the Russian judge placing Suguri in 4th for the
SP, as opposed to 2nd, where the other judges placed her.
Janice
Gr8tful4aug1
>their jump errors were similar, and neither one was too disruptive.
In addition, Cohen has a beautiful face, while Kwan is ugly and has a huge
nose.
Rory
Kaiju
Susan Stone Wilbanks wrote:
> I've now seen it, and I still think the 6.0's were gifts. She skated as
> well as she ever does, but she *still* telegraphs her jumps, pumps to gain
> speed, doesn't seem to completely know what to do with her arms, and just
> lacks that certain expressiveness and fire you see in Yagudin (whose 6.0's I
> thought were justified).
Thank you.
> And I also thought Cohen and Kwan were dinged more than they should've been
> for their jump errors. When I saw the marks last night, I assumed both had
> had truly disastrous wipe-out, butt-on-ice, program-disrupting falls. I
> thought their tech marks should've been in the 5.4-5.6 range, given the
> overall excellence of everything else they did.
Exactly. When I saw the scores last night, I thought Kwan and LMT must
have done Zamboni Acts. They did not. The scores did not reflect the
overall quality of their performances. Let's face it. The deal is
already in. Slutskaya will finally have her World's Gold Medal. It is
ordained. Both Kwan and Cohen were jobbed. If one looks at the 5.2
scores from some of the judges, they are saying Kwan's overall technical
score was at most a 5.5-5.6. That just doesn't seem justified for an
otherwise clean program, especially since Kwan only stumbled out of a
jump, but did not fall. And in light of how Kwan performed, the 6.0's
for Slutskaya also seemed out of line. Sorry. Kwan was really jobbed.
And interestingly, the Russian judge held Kwan up where she belonged.
He was fair with Kwan. I give him props for that, even though I
disagreed with the 6.0's he gave Slutskaya.
> I hate this panel. It's a travesty.
It was indeed ugly.
Kaiju
--
Context is everything...
nemo me impune lacessit
Chad Becker
Susan Stone Wilbanks wrote:
(snip stuff about Irina's skating style in the short)
>I've now seen it, and I still think the 6.0's were gifts. She skated as
>well as she ever does, but she *still* telegraphs her jumps, pumps to gain
>speed, doesn't seem to completely know what to do with her arms, and just
>lacks that certain expressiveness and fire you see in Yagudin (whose 6.0's I
>thought were justified).
>
Totally agreed....if Irina's performance was worth *any* perfect marks for
presentation, then Fumie should have gotten 6.0's across the board. Her short
was beautiful; skated with lots of speed, and had wonderful, fast spins. I
know she skated earlier in the group than Irina, but there was absolutely no
comparison between the two as far as the second mark is concerned.
Chad
Alizea
>Correct me if I'm wrong, experts, but those not-quite-falls Kwan and Cohen
>had would be about a 0.3 deduction, right?
Kwan's mistake was a 0.3-4 deduction, depending if one takes a "step out"
deduction (0.3) or a "step out-foot down" deduction (0.3+0.1). It is justified
to take the second deduction when a skater steps out between the first jump and
the double toe of a combination, because they have to push between the step and
the three turn into the double toe. I believe Michelle did this, although I
didn't tape the short and wasn't counting deductions as they went.
Cohen, however, I think was definitely a 0.4 deduction. She stepped out and
had at least one foot and two (maybe only one?) hands down. There's lots of
way to add deducutions on that... (0.3+0.1+0.1+0.1(?)=0.4, since you can't take
more than 0.4 off any attempted element).
Cohen's base mark may also have taken a ding as a result of that error, but
maybe not... Sometimes it's hard to define where the quality issues end and
the deductions begin. I haven't seen this short of Cohen's live, but I
wouldn't expect her spiral sequence to help her base mark, because of the lack
of edging and demonstration of different spirals. That could also be a
deduction, if a judge felt that she didn't use the whole ice surface. (I'm
guessing here, based on the impression I've gotten from TV, which could be
quite off.)
Also, either skater may have had a spin deduction. Did anyone count
revolutions?
And, I would have deduction quite a bit (maybe 0.2) on Irina for steps into
footwork. Her steps didn't even come close to being into the jump...
Alizea
Gorilma98
>> the landing on the double axel, but what were the other significant
>> problems?
>
>I'm not the most expert person on the ng by any means, but I would
>personally have placed Cohen ahead of Onda for sure. As for Kwan vs. Cohen,
>their jump errors were similar, and neither one was too disruptive. I'd
>have to go back and look at it element by element to decide who had the
>better skate, but since Kwan generally has stronger edging and less of a
>flutz, so I'd probably agree with putting her ahead of Cohen.
A lot of this is hard to discuss just from seeing the competition on TV. When
I saw Kwan and Cohen live, the differences were very obvious. Kwan's edges are
wonderful...Cohen's are shallow at best. Kwan's spirals are secure..Cohen's are
wobbly...due to her lack of deep edges. IT was interesting to hear Dick gush
over Sasha's spirals, saying that she was without peer or some such nonsense.
Maybe Dick should have been looking at Sasha's feet. Extention isn't the "be
all and end all" of spirals...Her Charlotte is done on flats. Her spins tend to
travel a bit. Again, despite Dick gushing over Sasha's "brilliant lutz", I
believe a lutz which takes off on the wrong edge, is not "brilliant"...Also in
person, Sasha doesn't close her circle and doesn't utilize the entire ice
surface....Kwan may have a bit of a flutz at times, but it is nowhere near
Sasha's and everything that I've just mentioned about Sasha, well, frankly
Michelle does better.
As far as Onda....well, she skated clean, while Cohen didn't. I know in person
her speed is incredible, while Cohen's is adequate. When I saw her live, she
also had better ice coverage than Sasha. So I think the placements were fair.
Truthfully I think Sasha was overmarked in her Olympic sp. Perhaps this time,
some of the judges were deducting for her flaws, other than just the axel
problem.
Now that the judges are becoming more familiar with Sasha, they may be over
some of their initial "awe" over her positions and "ta da' moves, and be
actually watching her skating. JMO
Chris..who is thrilled for Fumie!!!
Locutus of Borg
>does to gain speed and what not.
Because I came in on the show while taping on timer, I watched the ladies' SPs
without sound. Irina pumped very little when she accellerated in the SP which
aired Friday night in the USA.
Just thought I ought to note that. (This does not justify sixes, but then
again, she was last, and they don't have to save marks.)
Peg
==
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Locutus of Borg
>
You also made some assinine comment about bronze medals which you have yet to
renounce. There's still time as I post this.
Roaz
>Date: 3/22/2002 9:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <20020323002502...@mb-mo.aol.com>
>
I wrote:
>> It's scary to be right.
>>
>
>You also made some assinine comment about bronze medals which you have yet to
>renounce. There's still time as I post this.
>
Er...I don't remember that.
Trudi Marrapodi
dg...@aol.comcomic (DG511) wrote:
> Amy writes:
>
> >Robert Dister wrote:
> >>Notice that Mr. DOLGUSHIN is the Judge No.6 who put Suguri in 4th in
> >the
> >>SP (every other judge had her 2nd)
[snip]
> >>I wonder what Slute would have to do to lose
> >>this competition.
> >
> >Not show up? Kill Ottavio's dog? Renounce her citizenship?
>
> If she didn't show up, they could still give her a special medal in
Russia. If
> she killed Speedy's dog, it would depend on whether it was an accident or on
> purpose -- or whether Speedy actually cared about the dog. Renouncing her
> citizenship is a mere technical issue that I would not expect the bloc to
> recognize.
This brings me to another topic: This may seem kinda farfetched, but now I
would put nothing past them anymore...does anyone wonder whether the
seemingly inexplicable recognition of Lang & Tcherneyshev in ice dancing
might have anything to do with the fact that HE became a U.S. citizen and
gave up Mother Russia? Just a crazy thought. I mean, so did Sakhonovsky,
but he had the excuse of being Jewish, and something tells me Russia still
doesn't really mind exporting its Jews. So, is this some kind of
punishment for his not being Russian anymore? And did the same thing
happen to Roca & Sur because Sur defected? Just wondering. Because I
remember it looking for a while there like Roca & Sur would be the next
great American team, and then all of a sudden they started getting marked
REALLY low and Punsalan & Swallow were being ranked way better...it was
bizarre.
> >>Slute skated a mediocre Olympics against a reigning
> >>world Bronze medalist who landed two 3-3 combos, and yet 3 Warsaw
> >Pact
> >>judges and their Danish friend put her first. .... Here's
> >>hoping that Slute actually earns her near-inevitable Gold medal.
> >
> >I never understand that last sentiment from people. If I think the
> >fix might be in, I'd rather the skater would screw it up big time.
> >Then it would be obvious what the judges were doing and would keep
> >attention focused on this problem.
>
> Absolutely! What would be interesting to see is something so compelling and
> undeniably wrong that some nations decided to ditch the ISU and start a
> parallel organization. What would happen to the ISU without money and support
> from the U.S. and Canada, for example? I think it would be not very pretty.
Well, it would be interesting.
> >I wonder how a halfway decent Sarah would have fared in all this. And
> >I'm now hoping for a longshot Fumie win. (Besides, wouldn't that be
> >interesting -- Sarah and Fumie as 02 Oly and World gold medalists? :D)
> >amyp3
> >
>
> Sarah and Fumie were my upset picks for the year, so I'd be happy with Fumie
> winning Worlds -- except I really want Michelle to win it.
>
> Daria
I'd be happy with either one. But I would still believe it impossible,
given the circumstances.
--
Trudi
adding the question "What do you mean?" to every post, just in case...
Trudi Marrapodi
<stonew...@attbi.com> wrote:
[snip]
> I've now seen it, and I still think the 6.0's were gifts. She skated as
> well as she ever does,
Probably the best she ever has. I'll grant her that. I think this is the
best short I've ever seen her do.
> but she *still* telegraphs her jumps, pumps to gain
> speed, doesn't seem to completely know what to do with her arms, and just
> lacks that certain expressiveness and fire you see in Yagudin (whose 6.0's I
> thought were justified).
Yeah. Agreed.
> And I also thought Cohen and Kwan were dinged more than they should've been
> for their jump errors. When I saw the marks last night, I assumed both had
> had truly disastrous wipe-out, butt-on-ice, program-disrupting falls. I
> thought their tech marks should've been in the 5.4-5.6 range, given the
> overall excellence of everything else they did.
Yeah. I mean, I know it's apples and oranges, but in '88 Brian Orser
stumbled out of his combination and couldn't even DO the second jump, and
he got marks pretty much like Kwan's--and she at least DID the second
jump. Actually, in a way, the situation is comparable, because that short
program was generally ugly too, with only Boitano skating clean, IIRC.
And Cohen gets dinged nastily for a bad 2 axel, and you know you can't say
she got dinged for anything else, because considering how she was judged
in the Olympics, it appears the judges generally have their Dick
Button/Sandra Bezic goggles on when they watch her, and they don't notice
her wobbly spirals, etc.
> I hate this panel. It's a travesty.
Agreed, with a sigh...
Trudi Marrapodi
jani...@aol.commotion (Janice Schnell) wrote:
> >Fumie Suguri has done nothing to get on the S-list of Russian skating
> >judges. She is in second place.
> > As for Irina, repeat after me: "Ice is slippery. Much can happen
> >during a 4 minute program."
> > Carla
>
> I think they are refering to the Russian judge placing Suguri in 4th for the
> SP, as opposed to 2nd, where the other judges placed her.
>
> Janice
He's one scary-looking dude, isn't he? Looks like he sucked on a lemon for
a week. The very cliche of a nasty skating judge.
Trudi Marrapodi
pegl...@aol.compurgator (Locutus of Borg) wrote:
> >6.0 for presentation is a little bewildering, with the "pumping" she
> >does to gain speed and what not.
>
> Because I came in on the show while taping on timer, I watched the ladies' SPs
> without sound. Irina pumped very little when she accellerated in the SP which
> aired Friday night in the USA.
>
> Just thought I ought to note that. (This does not justify sixes, but then
> again, she was last, and they don't have to save marks.)
>
> Peg
Oh, she pumped very little compared to usual, but she still pumped.
Gorilma98
>she got dinged for anything else, because considering how she was judged
>in the Olympics, it appears the judges generally have their Dick
>Button/Sandra Bezic goggles on when they watch her, and they don't notice
>her wobbly spirals, etc.
I'm not so sure about that. Maybe, Hopefully, the judges finally dinged her for
some of her other flaws. Her poor edges (thus wobbly spiral), the fact that
many of her ta-da moves are done on flats (most noticebly her charlotte), the
fact that she doesn't close her circle and she has pretty poor ice coverage for
an elite skater, and of course her flutz,which was apparently overlooked at the
Olympics.
Personally, I felt she was way overmarked at the Olympics...esp. in the sp. But
perhaps since she was relatively new to the International scene, the judges
were still influenced by what many say is her "Wow" factor.
Now that they had a chance to see her again, perhaps the Sandra/Dick blinders
are coming off and they are viewing her actual skating! (i.e. looking at her
feet, rather than her positions and face)
Someone pointed out that it takes Sasha 8 crossovers to get through a spiral
sequence, as opposed to Irina, who only used 3. And for Dick to say that "when
it comes to spirals, Sasha is without peer" or some such nonesense, was
ridiculous. IMO Kwan is still the "Queen of spirals"..A great spiral is more
than just extention...when she can secure her edges a bit more and her spiral
sequence can become as seamless and effortless as Michelle's then maybe that
comment won't be as far off.
Anyway, JMO...a girl can always hope that the judges in the SPORT of figure
skating are taking deductions where necessary and not being blinded by unusual
positions, and an expressive face.
Chris
Alizea
>Yeah. I mean, I know it's apples and oranges, but in '88 Brian Orser
>stumbled out of his combination and couldn't even DO the second jump, and
>he got marks pretty much like Kwan's--and she at least DID the second
>jump.
In a situation where a skater misses their first jump, it doesn't really matter
if they do the second jump. They've still racked up 0.4 in deductions and lost
the base mark, because a BLOOP-double toe isn't a combination and isn't all
that hard.
Of course, if a skater merely steped out of her triple jump (first jump in the
combination) and then did her solo triple, she *could* be in trouble, if the
panel decided to take deductions for no combination. That's not really
recommended, however. If a skater falls, there's no question about her
intentions.
Alizea
Fiona McQuarrie
:>And Cohen gets dinged nastily for a bad 2 axel, and you know you can't say
:>she got dinged for anything else, because considering how she was judged
:>in the Olympics, it appears the judges generally have their Dick
:>Button/Sandra Bezic goggles on when they watch her, and they don't notice
:>her wobbly spirals, etc.
: I'm not so sure about that. Maybe, Hopefully, the judges finally dinged her for
: some of her other flaws. Her poor edges (thus wobbly spiral), the fact that
: many of her ta-da moves are done on flats (most noticebly her charlotte), the
: fact that she doesn't close her circle and she has pretty poor ice coverage for
: an elite skater, and of course her flutz,which was apparently overlooked at the
: Olympics.
: Personally, I felt she was way overmarked at the Olympics...esp. in the sp. But
: perhaps since she was relatively new to the International scene, the judges
: were still influenced by what many say is her "Wow" factor.
I agree with this post.
Fiona
Trudi Marrapodi
ali...@aol.comeskate (Alizea) wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. The whole issue of deductions for
combinations in the short can be pretty murky. Especially if a skater
commits more than one of the Evil Errors at one time (falling, touching
down, etc., etc., etc.).
Carla Jenkins
the landing on the double axel, but what were the other significant
f-o-o-t-w-o-r-k
Carla
Althealeo
zambonies, I can't imagine the bloc putting her lower than 2nd.>>
And, how often does she zamboni? Slutskaya has a lot to improve about her
skating, and I think that Kwan was undermarked here, but .... Slutskaya usually
skates pretty clean. Given that, even if the 'bloc' is bent on giving it to
her, I think their work is done already. She'll almost certainly place first
or second on her own.
(Which raises the interesting question of, if there's actual cheating or bias
going on, whether the bloc would bother to put her first in the long program,
even if she didn't deserve it.)
-- Kate
Roaz
>Date: 3/23/2002 8:47 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <20020323114747...@mb-ba.aol.com>
When I watched the feet only in viewing my tape of the Oly's short program,
Irina's spirals were superior to Sasha's AND Sarah Hughes'. Her edging was so
good, so steady. Both Sasha and Sarah wobbled a bit. None of the North
American commentators seem to take this into consideration but perhaps the
judges do.
michael farris
BottomLineGuySk8 wrote:
>
> Michael -
> what's the purpose of "Sluckaja"? It just
> strikes me as pretentious, particular when you go on to call her Slute and
> mention Bute.
>
> I'll confess I'm iritable today, but I've noticed this before.
There's no "official" way of writing Russian with the Latin alphabet and the
spelling Slutskaya bothers me because in Russian, there's a single sound
(written c in every Slavic language that uses the Latin alphabet, Polish,
Czech, Slovenian etc.) which is _not_ the same as t followed by s, that is c
is not the same as ts. J is used as a 'y' sound in the Slavic languages that
use the LAtin alphabet. If there _were_ an official way of writing Russian in
the Latin alphabet, you'd probably need 'y' as a vowel (as in Butyrskaja) and
using it as in English makes that messy. I just like Sluckaja better as a
spelling, more appropriate for a Slavic language.
As for "Slute" that's a nickname and so it doesn't have to make sense.
-michael pretensious farris
Trudi Marrapodi
deser...@aol.committed (Roaz) wrote:
[snip]
> When I watched the feet only in viewing my tape of the Oly's short program,
> Irina's spirals were superior to Sasha's AND Sarah Hughes'. Her edging was so
> good, so steady. Both Sasha and Sarah wobbled a bit. None of the North
> American commentators seem to take this into consideration but perhaps the
> judges do.
Good edging, mediocre position. What do you do with that?
Suemary Vance
> Good edging, mediocre position. What do you do with that?
> --
> Trudi
> adding the question "What do you mean?" to every post, just in case...
Trudi, Could you give some details on "mediocre position". Perhaps
compare/contrast Irina with Michelle and Sasha. I consider Michelle's spiral
the best, but would like another viewpoint on how Irina differs.
Thanks in advance,
Suemary
Janice Schnell
>Irina's spirals were superior to Sasha's AND Sarah Hughes'. Her edging was
>so
>good, so steady. Both Sasha and Sarah wobbled a bit. None of the North
>American commentators seem to take this into consideration but perhaps the
>judges do.
>
>DesertRoaz
>Frame of reference is everything.
>
>
I take it in to consideration, Roaz, but in all fairness, I have seen Slutskaya
wobble on the spiral's too. Kwan's seems to be the most secure of them all.
Janice
Gorilma98
>Irina's spirals were superior to Sasha's AND Sarah Hughes'. Her edging was
>so
>good, so steady. Both Sasha and Sarah wobbled a bit. None of the North
>American commentators seem to take this into consideration but perhaps the
>judges do.
>
>DesertRoaz
>Frame of reference is everything.
>
her spirals can wobble a bit as well.
In the sp at the Olympics...the judges most definitely took deductions for ALL
of Sarah's shortcomings......But seemed blind to Sasha's. I think at Worlds, we
saw the judges taking off for more than her missed axel.
Irina's spirals might not be as pretty as Sasha's but they are effortless and
her spiral sequence is very smooth, as opposed to choppy..
Chris
Trudi Marrapodi
<sva...@vancesys.com> wrote:
The lift of the leg is, well, something I could do...and have done...not
with that speed, and probably not with that edging, but...you get the
idea.
bagelpuss
> In article <3c9e30f0$1...@news.iglou.com>, "Suemary Vance"
> <sva...@vancesys.com> wrote:
>
> > > Good edging, mediocre position. What do you do with that?
> > > --
> > > Trudi
> > > adding the question "What do you mean?" to every post, just in case...
> >
> > Trudi, Could you give some details on "mediocre position". Perhaps
> > compare/contrast Irina with Michelle and Sasha. I consider Michelle's spiral
> > the best, but would like another viewpoint on how Irina differs.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Suemary
>
> The lift of the leg is, well, something I could do...and have done...not
> with that speed, and probably not with that edging, but...you get the
> idea.
I know that the original poster was looking for Trudi's insight, but
I'll throw my 2 cents in, for what it's worth. Irina's position
during her spiral bothers me for several reasons: 1. as Trudi
mentioned, the leg could be held higher 2. it would be nice if her toe
were pointed and the leg was straight (not bent at the knee) 3. I
would like to see her back held up, in one distinct position and her
head held up and steady. Basically what I want to see from her is
extension and control--I want to see her look like she has mastered
her entire body, not just her edges. To me, Irina always looks
"bouncy" no matter what she's doing--her back and tush bounce up and
down as she does crossovers, her arms flail uncontrollably, there is
no effort to control her body at all except during her jumps. Her
double Beillmann is nice, but it would be nicer if she would control
her body throught the changes of position to form an aesthetically
pleasing whole. To me that's sloppy and I can't understand why she
gets such high presentation marks for it. I appreciate her sure,
flowing edges and her wonderful speed and those gorgeous, giant jumps,
but to me it's not enough. I want to see her with the whole package
and I just don't see that yet.
Sally4sbb
>during her spiral bothers me for several reasons: 1. as Trudi
>mentioned, the leg could be held higher 2. it would be nice if her toe
>were pointed and the leg was straight (not bent at the knee) 3. I
>would like to see her back held up, in one distinct position and her
>head held up and steady.
I would add that she tends to "throw" herself into them, or lunge into them, to
gain her speed. Especially that back spiral. Ugh.
SallyH
Suemary Vance
"bagelpuss" <bage...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cbb9942b.02032...@posting.google.com...
Thanks for all the input. Peggy Fleming has said Irina could improve her
position in the spiral, but didn't specify. When Trudi mentioned the same
thing, I saw my chance to get some clarification. I understand what you mean
about not being steady; her head and shoulders seem to slowly lower so she
loses her arch in the back as she does her spiral. I found some pictures on
Yahoo news of various ladies' spirals and they illustrate your points. Fumie
Suguri also lacks leg lift and arch of back in her spiral, which PF alluded
to in the commentary.
The bouncy issue seems to be improving a little, but at least it isn't as
noticeable as Tonia Kwiatkowski. I finally learned why Tonia didn't score
better for "clean" programs through reading this ng.
In spite of the judging controversies, I like to try and understand the
placements. The commentators aren't always helpful...I suppose they don't
have the time for the thoroughness I'd like.
Suemary
Janice Schnell
>placements. The commentators aren't always helpful...I suppose they don't
>have the time for the thoroughness I'd like.
>
>Suemary
>
comparison of the top competitors. They do it in other sports, so they CAN do
it in skating. I'd love some in depth analysis of the top 6 competitors in
each field. ABC is on the right track with their "Ice Moves", but they can go
one better with a good analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of each
competitor.
Janice
Trudi Marrapodi
bage...@hotmail.com (bagelpuss) wrote:
> tru...@clarityconnect.competent (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote in message
news:<trudee-2503...@pg040.clarityconnect.com>...
> > In article <3c9e30f0$1...@news.iglou.com>, "Suemary Vance"
> > <sva...@vancesys.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Good edging, mediocre position. What do you do with that?
> > > > --
> > > > Trudi
> > > > adding the question "What do you mean?" to every post, just in case...
> > >
> > > Trudi, Could you give some details on "mediocre position". Perhaps
> > > compare/contrast Irina with Michelle and Sasha. I consider
Michelle's spiral
> > > the best, but would like another viewpoint on how Irina differs.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance,
> > > Suemary
> >
> > The lift of the leg is, well, something I could do...and have done...not
> > with that speed, and probably not with that edging, but...you get the
> > idea.
>
> I know that the original poster was looking for Trudi's insight, but
> I'll throw my 2 cents in, for what it's worth. Irina's position
> during her spiral bothers me for several reasons: 1. as Trudi
> mentioned, the leg could be held higher
That's thing one, yeah.
> 2. it would be nice if her toe
> were pointed and the leg was straight (not bent at the knee)
Yep. Sarah Hughes bends her knee sometimes, but at least she points her
toe all the time.
> 3. I
> would like to see her back held up, in one distinct position and her
> head held up and steady.
The back and head, too. They are just sort of...there. It's like she's not
really trying to create a nice picture with her body. It's like she's just
sort of achieving a lot of speed, and then using that speed to ride the
edge while she lifts the leg...but she doesn't lift the leg in a
particularly attractive fashion, nor does she seem to be doing the spiral
with her whole body...just her leg. Just as some unattractive layback
spins are being done by skaters who are not really going into a full
layback position...they're just sort of leaning back when they spin and
lifting one leg at the knee.
Don't get me wrong, I never got past USFSA Basic 3 in my own skating. But
I did learn how to do spirals in Basic 3 (if not Kwan spirals, well, a
spiral that looked pretty good--maybe it was on the flat more than the
edge sometimes, but there are times I rounded a corner on it, so I know I
was at least on the edge) and one thing I remember learning is that you
have to rise up when you lean into it in order to get a good-looking
position into it. (Sometimes I rose a little TOO much and leaned down too
far and ended up on my toepick...but I prefer not to remember those
times.) Slute doesn't look as if she "rises up" into it...she just sort of
bends down into it, and the effect, combined with the occasional lack of
toe point and the unspectacular leg position, is not outstanding.
Of course, the opposite problem is what you have with Sasha Cohen...a
spiral so gorgeously extended and a back held so beautifully that people
like Dick Button don't seem to give a damn that she's skating on a flat,
or on a damn wobbly edge. At first sight, most people wouldn't. I sure
didn't. But I see it now.
> Basically what I want to see from her is
> extension and control--I want to see her look like she has mastered
> her entire body, not just her edges.
It's the "muscular tension" thing (said Dick?). If Cohen isn't a good
example, well, Kwan is, of someone who has both excellent muscular tension
and a great edge in the spiral. Or Nicole Bobek. Or Paul Wylie. (Although
most of the time, he deliberately skated a spiral on a flat so he could
make a straight line down the ice. I don't think he was doing it because
he couldn't hold an edge! I think he deliberately did flat spirals to get
a choreographic effect.)
> To me, Irina always looks
> "bouncy" no matter what she's doing--her back and tush bounce up and
> down as she does crossovers, her arms flail uncontrollably, there is
> no effort to control her body at all except during her jumps.
Agreed. Sometimes she is less bouncy than others. She was less bouncy in
this competition, and less flaily-armed, than usual.
> Her
> double Beillmann is nice, but it would be nicer if she would control
> her body throught the changes of position to form an aesthetically
> pleasing whole.
You mean, such as not becoming preoccupied with the skate-grabbing
business to the point where she sometimes re-centers the spin on the
change of foot, or doesn't hold it long enough, or whatever?
> To me that's sloppy and I can't understand why she
> gets such high presentation marks for it.
Unfortunately this may be one of those cases of "It's hard, and nobody
else does it, so we automatically give it brownie points."
> I appreciate her sure,
> flowing edges and her wonderful speed and those gorgeous, giant jumps,
> but to me it's not enough. I want to see her with the whole package
> and I just don't see that yet.
Me either. Of course, it's never been required that a skater have a whole
package in order to win a world title.
Locutus of Borg
>Of course, the opposite problem is what you have with Sasha Cohen...a
>spiral so gorgeously extended and a back held so beautifully that people
>like Dick Button don't seem to give a damn that she's skating on a flat,
>or on a damn wobbly edge. At first sight, most people wouldn't. I sure
>didn't. But I see it now.
Yes!
Peg, long-time skate-watcher <g>
Bruce Scott TOK
bagelpuss <bage...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[Irina]
>Her
>double Beillmann is nice, but it would be nicer if she would control
>her body throught the changes of position to form an aesthetically
>pleasing whole. To me that's sloppy and I can't understand why she
>gets such high presentation marks for it. I appreciate her sure,
>flowing edges and her wonderful speed and those gorgeous, giant jumps,
>but to me it's not enough. I want to see her with the whole package
>and I just don't see that yet.
Her double Beillmann looked very forced to me, in agreement with posters
in the other thread who said people shouldn't do that move if their
strain in doing it shows through. She doesn't get her foot high enough,
and the whole presentation is more a matter of "see I can do it" rather
than something which flows out of the chreography.
It certainly isn't worth the 6.0's she got in the short program.
I thought she was solid, but won the championship because she didn't
make any real mistakes. Kwan's program was probably disadvantaged
because of those two she skated second, and the difference was narrow
enough that the placing was more or less a crap shoot. Maybe Irina was
better on the jumps and tricks and Michelle was better on the spiral
elements? I don't know. But even if she had won the long program, her
errors in the short are what cost her the gold anyway. I got the
impression she knew that right after the short program even before the
marks went up. She would have had to do and land the 3-3 and then hope
for less conservatism from Fumie Suguri, in order to win the gold. For
these reasons I thought the final 1-2-3 placements were in order.
Big question for me: why did Irina place higher than Fumie in the short
program?
--
cu,
Bruce
drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
ABandt
*
*
*
*
*
<<And, I would have deduction quite a bit (maybe 0.2) on Irina for steps into
footwork. Her steps didn't even come close to being into the jump...>>
At the Olympics, Scott mentioned during Sasha's short that there could be a a
deduction taken on the Russian Split Jump (I think that's what that move is
called, it's one of the split jumps at least) at the end if the judge thought
it was an added element, ie not on the prescribed list of elements, is that in
fact true? Is that a possibility as something that could have happened here?
Obviously she hasn't gotten dinged on it any other time this season or Nicks
would, should, have taken it out of the program. What type of moves are the
split jumps considered -- or is it a murky gray area -- in any rate I could see
how it could be considered an added element as it's not a spiral and not
exactly footwork...
~Amy
Locutus of Borg
A half-revolution jump is allowed in footwork.
What I found interesting is that Sasha's SP's O footwork had two air-time
moments - the Russian split and a stag jump... until Worlds, where the stag
jump was gone. Now, I wondered if it was removed on purpose between OOOOO and
worlds, or if the stag jump got lost because of the error on the Axel preceding
the O footwork... perhaps that put the timing of the element off and she had to
leave something out to "catch up" in time to end with the spin with enough
revolutions before the music ended.
Alas, I'm not familiar enough with Sasha's music to know... nor was I in Nagano
to watch practices to see if the stag jump was left out on purpose. Anyone
know? Anyone notice?
Peg