[DISCUSSION] The Torch and Bruce Mitchell
Hayabu2354
If this appears twice, I apologize. AOL has been less dependable than usual
lately, and it never appeared to make it up.
Before I get to the meat of my post. I want to first say that I am not gay and
I don't have any friends who are gay, otherwise I would just ask them about
this and not post it. But, after reading this week's issue of the Pro
Wrestling Torch, I was very curious, and somewhat perplexed, about Bruce
Mitchell's column and assertions that he made. What I guess I want to know is
am I living in a black hole, or is Mitchell way off base, and I would
appreciate feedback from anyone on this. I have some passages from the article
quoted below. The topic of said article was the "adult" nature of wrestling
nowadays.
"Actually, Goldust's attention-seeking gimmicks seem more like a guy who his
act on a couple of porno mags he bought on his one visit to the adult book
store than a real life pervert, and the audience seems to sense it."
Does anyone else "sense" that? I have read more than a few porno mags and I
sure never sensed that. To me, Goldust just seems like a big joke, and that is
what he is going for. Is what Mitchell sees something that only one who looks
at things from a gay point of view would see?
"Interestingly, the most perverse, unsettling, subversive gimmick in the sport
isn't in the WWF or even ECW. It's in WCW, the same promotion that Eric
Bischoff claims is toning down on-camera misbehavior. Raven's Nest, to put it
bluntly, ought to be renamed Raven's Rough Trade. The clues aren't subtle. This
All Male-Revue features Raven, who had the classic butch/fem abusive
relationship with Stevie Richards, so much that the Richards character went
back to submissively serving Raven after declaring his supposed independence.
Raven constantly talks of his alienation and rejection from his parents,
without being specific as to the reason. Everyone in the Nest vies for Raven's
love. Saturn didn't steal his look from Taz, he took it from Biker Boys
magazine. Lodi's look is straight out of every college gay bar in America.
Hammer, whose name fits this concept perfectly, comes right from the peep
shows. Nice fishnet, too. Billy Kidman has got the Bus Station Runaway look
down cold."
Am I the only one who has no idea how Mitchell came to this conclusion?
Granted, I have never been to a "college gay bar". I have never read (or even
heard of) Biker Boys magazine. I sure never tried to pick up a "Bus Station
Runaway". I have also never been in a "butch/fem abusive relationship" (and
thank God I don't even know what one is". All of that being said, when I look
at Raven's nest I don't see the group of kinky homosexuals that Mitchell does.
Do you?
"Why do you think Raven wanted to "recruit" Scotty Riggs, whose only
distinguishing characteristic is he looks like an (American) male model (and
Eric Bischoff)? Tellingly, the climactic moment in Raven's courtship came when
Raven DDT'd Riggs unconscious, then lamented damaging his face and claimed to
feel his "pain." Hammer then carried Riggs out lovingly over his shoulder. What
did Raven and his boys do to Riggs, exactly, to get him to embrace his true
nature? And the Nest doesn't like Chris Benoit because he's simply too
straight."
Raven will only feud with people who are straight? He beats people up and
"converts" them to homosexuals? Is this rational thinking or some truly warped
line of reasoning?
As I said, this column was really strange and I would like to hear what you all
have to say.
Pronwo
You make some very interesting points here. I hadnt read the article but it
seems very strange. I'm not sure what Mr. Mitchell was going for in this one.
Mel F. Bailey
content. At age 51, I find all the gimmicks mentioned by this poster to
be sick, real sick. I don't live around it and I don't want it in my
home or influencing my children.
God knows there is lots wrong with society and that todays wrestlers
will mirror this (all the good gimmicks have been used) and that todays
promoters will seize on anything "new" (including homosexuality) to make
a buck!
I love wrestling but have been forced to stop watching the WWF due to
Golddusts gimmick (not to mention Luna), Mero's TKO (low blow) and
McMahon's version of DX. Raven's nest is a 15 minute ruination of every
WCW show I now watch. Yes, I could lower my standards to accept this
sort of thing but how would this play to my children? I am the role
model they will fashion thier lives upon afterall, and I used to get
help from wrestling shows, who daily demonstrated to my kids that Good
will overcome evil through "eating your vitamins and saying your
prayers" (just like DAD tells does and tells us to do).
Professional wrestling has sunk to new lows with the exception of some
WCW faces (Hart, Benoit, Malenko, Mysterio too name a few) taking this
generation with it.
--
m...@centralus.com
Bob Barnett
I already posted that they're Raven's Fudge Pack
Kelly Vaters
Hayabu2354 (hayab...@aol.com) wrote:
: "Actually, Goldust's attention-seeking gimmicks seem more like a guy who his
: act on a couple of porno mags he bought on his one visit to the adult book
: store than a real life pervert, and the audience seems to sense it."
: Does anyone else "sense" that? I have read more than a few porno mags and I
: sure never sensed that. To me, Goldust just seems like a big joke, and that is
: what he is going for. Is what Mitchell sees something that only one who looks
: at things from a gay point of view would see?
No. There has always been a "camp" element to pro wrestling, for the same
reasons that one could claim "camp" in say, bodybuilding or escape art
(au Houdini.) Goldust was, perhaps, the first-ever wrestler whose gimmick
openly recognized the homoerotic aspect of wrestling. If the whole thing
disturbs you, you're probably not alone, but wrestling could be considered
socially acceptable male homosexual porn; two men in close physical
contact in states of heightened tension/excitement. In fact, the "sexiest"
men in wrestling to women, ironically enough, comprise a number of
"feminine" physical traits (long hair, well-developed pectoral muscles,
ring attire designed to draw attention to pecs or legs.)
: "Interestingly, the most perverse, unsettling, subversive gimmick in the sport
: isn't in the WWF or even ECW. It's in WCW, the same promotion that Eric
: Bischoff claims is toning down on-camera misbehavior. Raven's Nest, to put it
: bluntly, ought to be renamed Raven's Rough Trade. The clues aren't subtle. This
: All Male-Revue features Raven, who had the classic butch/fem abusive
: relationship with Stevie Richards, so much that the Richards character went
: back to submissively serving Raven after declaring his supposed independence.
: Raven constantly talks of his alienation and rejection from his parents,
: without being specific as to the reason. Everyone in the Nest vies for Raven's
: love. Saturn didn't steal his look from Taz, he took it from Biker Boys
: magazine. Lodi's look is straight out of every college gay bar in America.
: Hammer, whose name fits this concept perfectly, comes right from the peep
: shows. Nice fishnet, too. Billy Kidman has got the Bus Station Runaway look
: down cold."
Well, the fishnet really is a throwback to Hammer's "glam rock" days, and
the ensemble as a whole could be viewed simply as a Gothic-grunge
collective of street people on the fringe of society, but Mitchell chose
to go the "queer theory" route here rather than a Marxist-Leninist or a
historical approach. Gotta tell my former English profs about this.
A closer understanding of "sex culture" might help in this case.
: "Why do you think Raven wanted to "recruit" Scotty Riggs, whose only
: distinguishing characteristic is he looks like an (American) male model (and
: Eric Bischoff)? Tellingly, the climactic moment in Raven's courtship came when
: Raven DDT'd Riggs unconscious, then lamented damaging his face and claimed to
: feel his "pain." Hammer then carried Riggs out lovingly over his shoulder.
One could find evidence here that Riggs was "raped"; the DDT can be a
phallic violence against the wrestling ring, not a conducive environment
for safely executing such an act. Interesting that you said "climactic";
Raven's reaction afterward could be viewed as regret that, in satisfying
himself, he may have destroyed the larger beauty of a potential
relationship with Riggs; or it could be guilt born of self-revulsion.
What
: did Raven and his boys do to Riggs, exactly, to get him to embrace his true
: nature? And the Nest doesn't like Chris Benoit because he's simply too
: straight."
Or, rather, that Benoit was too "feminine"-looking (small stature, longish
hair). Very hard to tell with Benoit.
: Raven will only feud with people who are straight? He beats people up and
: "converts" them to homosexuals? Is this rational thinking or some truly warped
: line of reasoning?
: As I said, this column was really strange and I would like to hear what you all
: have to say.
A fascinating point of view from Bruce Mitchell, if a little too academic
for many fans. The newsgroup would do well to look at the underlying
symbols and allusions come up with conclusions of our own.
Kelly, the Eternally Confused 8) --
John D. Williams
Kelly Vaters wrote:
> Hayabu2354 (hayab...@aol.com) wrote:
>
> : "Actually, Goldust's attention-seeking gimmicks seem more like a
> : guy who his act on a couple of porno mags he bought on his one
> : visit to the adult book store than a real life pervert, and the
> : audience seems to sense it."
>
> : Does anyone else "sense" that? I have read more than a few porno
> : mags and I sure never sensed that. To me, Goldust just seems like
> : a big joke, and that is what he is going for. Is what Mitchell
> : sees something that only one who looks at things from a gay point
> : of view would see?
>
> No. There has always been a "camp" element to pro wrestling, for the
> same reasons that one could claim "camp" in say, bodybuilding or
> escape art (au Houdini.) Goldust was, perhaps, the first-ever
> wrestler whose gimmick openly recognized the homoerotic aspect of
> wrestling.
Goldust was nowhere near the first. Watch a little lucha, specifically
the exoticos.
> If the whole thing disturbs you, you're probably not alone, but
> wrestling could be considered socially acceptable male homosexual
> porn; two men in close physical contact in states of heightened
> tension/excitement. In fact, the "sexiest" men in wrestling to
> women, ironically enough, comprise a number of "feminine" physical
> traits (long hair, well-developed pectoral muscles, ring attire
> designed to draw attention to pecs or legs.)
Some of the other women in the group can offer up what they find the
sexiest men in wrestling. ;)
> : "Interestingly, the most perverse, unsettling, subversive gimmick
> : in the sport isn't in the WWF or even ECW. It's in WCW, the same
> : promotion that Eric Bischoff claims is toning down on-camera
> : misbehavior. Raven's Nest, to put it bluntly, ought to be renamed
> : Raven's Rough Trade. The clues aren't subtle. This All Male-Revue
> : features Raven, who had the classic butch/fem abusive relationship
> : with Stevie Richards, so much that the Richards character went
> : back to submissively serving Raven after declaring his supposed
> : independence. Raven constantly talks of his alienation and
> : rejection from his parents, without being specific as to the reason.
> : Everyone in the Nest vies for Raven's love. Saturn didn't steal his
> : look from Taz, he took it from Biker Boys magazine. Lodi's look is
> : straight out of every college gay bar in America. Hammer, whose
> : name fits this concept perfectly, comes right from the peep
> : shows. Nice fishnet, too. Billy Kidman has got the Bus Station
> : Runaway look down cold."
>
> Well, the fishnet really is a throwback to Hammer's "glam rock" days,
> and the ensemble as a whole could be viewed simply as a Gothic-grunge
> collective of street people on the fringe of society, but Mitchell
> chose to go the "queer theory" route here rather than a
> Marxist-Leninist or a historical approach. Gotta tell my former
> English profs about this.
I suspect you may want to talk to Prof. Levy before you think it's
Marxist-Leninist or some historical approach... because he'd agree with
Mitchell.
> A closer understanding of "sex culture" might help in this case.
Probably a closer understand of Levy might help in this case.
> : "Why do you think Raven wanted to "recruit" Scotty Riggs, whose only
> : distinguishing characteristic is he looks like an (American) male
> : model (and Eric Bischoff)? Tellingly, the climactic moment in
> : Raven's courtship came when Raven DDT'd Riggs unconscious, then
> : lamented damaging his face and claimed to feel his "pain." Hammer
> : then carried Riggs out lovingly over his shoulder.
>
> One could find evidence here that Riggs was "raped"; the DDT can be a
> phallic violence against the wrestling ring, not a conducive
> environment for safely executing such an act. Interesting that you
> said "climactic";
Uh... the "you" is Mitchell. :)
> Raven's reaction afterward could be viewed as regret that, in
> satisfying himself, he may have destroyed the larger beauty of a
> potential relationship with Riggs; or it could be guilt born of
> self-revulsion.
Bet the farm on the second one.
> : What did Raven and his boys do to Riggs, exactly, to get him to
> : embrace his true nature? And the Nest doesn't like Chris Benoit
> : because he's simply too straight."
>
> Or, rather, that Benoit was too "feminine"-looking (small stature,
> longish hair). Very hard to tell with Benoit.
Nah - his ring persona is very masculine. He also had the angle of
stealing the booker's wife. Benoit won't "come over"... so he needs to
get his ass kicked. As I said elsewhere, Malenko looks like he might be
mixxed in.
> : Raven will only feud with people who are straight? He beats people
> : up and "converts" them to homosexuals? Is this rational thinking
> : or some truly warped line of reasoning?
>
> : As I said, this column was really strange and I would like to hear
> : what you all have to say.
>
> A fascinating point of view from Bruce Mitchell, if a little too
> academic for many fans. The newsgroup would do well to look at the
> underlying symbols and allusions come up with conclusions of our own.
I doubt a fair share of the newsgroup has a clue on on the symbols and
allusions. As two other posts pointed out - Goldust goes for the
obvious highspots, and Raven is mining the a more psychological area.
Personally, I'd rather see Benoit working in a feud that either (i)
moves him up the card or (ii) produces match of the year candidates.
Instead, another year will be spent in a rather dead end feud for him.
--
jdw
"Johnny, take a walk with your sister the moon.
Let her pale light in to fill up you room."
Bob Barnett
John D. Williams wrote:
>
> Goldust was nowhere near the first. Watch a little lucha, specifically
> the exoticos.
Gorgeous George did it in 1949. Ricki Starr did it throughout the late
50's, early 60's.
The Taskmistress
Her Royal Majesty Elizabeth III noticed that hayab...@aol.com
(Hayabu2354) deigned to utter thusly....
>"Actually, Goldust's attention-seeking gimmicks seem more like a guy who his
>act on a couple of porno mags he bought on his one visit to the adult book
>store than a real life pervert, and the audience seems to sense it."
>Does anyone else "sense" that? I have read more than a few porno mags and I
>sure never sensed that. To me, Goldust just seems like a big joke, and that is
>what he is going for. Is what Mitchell sees something that only one who looks
>at things from a gay point of view would see?
At first I thought it was because I figured Dustin and Terri were into
some fairly kinky shit themselves. But I have heard through the
grapevine that Dustin doesn't like this gimmick, doesn't like Luna, and
wants out of it, and if that is true, I wonder what McMahon's motivation
is for this. Because I don't really think anybody wants to see this with
Dustin.
>"Interestingly, the most perverse, unsettling, subversive gimmick in the sport
>isn't in the WWF or even ECW. It's in WCW, the same promotion that Eric
>Bischoff claims is toning down on-camera misbehavior. Raven's Nest, to put it
>bluntly, ought to be renamed Raven's Rough Trade. The clues aren't subtle. This
>All Male-Revue features Raven, who had the classic butch/fem abusive
>relationship with Stevie Richards, so much that the Richards character went
>back to submissively serving Raven after declaring his supposed independence.
Well, I think a number of us observed it at the time. Yeah, I know it's
just supposed to be a wrestling gimmick, but it sure does have a real
feel to it.
>Raven constantly talks of his alienation and rejection from his parents,
>without being specific as to the reason. Everyone in the Nest vies for Raven's
>love. Saturn didn't steal his look from Taz, he took it from Biker Boys
>magazine. Lodi's look is straight out of every college gay bar in America.
I thought it was straight out of Billy Idol myself, but I don't tend to
hnag around gay male bars exactly. As for Saturn, he looks like he just
got out of the joint, so that doesn't exactly need an explanation. :-)
>Hammer, whose name fits this concept perfectly, comes right from the peep
>shows. Nice fishnet, too. Billy Kidman has got the Bus Station Runaway look
>down cold."
The drug addict runaway, really.
>Am I the only one who has no idea how Mitchell came to this conclusion?
>Granted, I have never been to a "college gay bar". I have never read (or even
>heard of) Biker Boys magazine. I sure never tried to pick up a "Bus Station
>Runaway". I have also never been in a "butch/fem abusive relationship" (and
>thank God I don't even know what one is". All of that being said, when I look
>at Raven's nest I don't see the group of kinky homosexuals that Mitchell does.
>Do you?
Yes, and I also see it in the NWO angle. The NWO is basically just a
bunch of young boys who enjoy each other's company JUST a tad too much
if you ask me. I know a lot of those guys are married, but for a bi man
that means nothing. It doesn't help Kevin Nash either that he was
basically in the same kind of angle with Shawn Michaels also. Yes, I
know it's an angle, but it seems to ring of one of those "unspoken love"
things. Elizabeth, since everybody knows she and Randy aren't together,
seems to be playing the part of the classic fag hag....she isn't playing
the typical wrestling bimbo.
>"Why do you think Raven wanted to "recruit" Scotty Riggs, whose only
>distinguishing characteristic is he looks like an (American) male model (and
>Eric Bischoff)? Tellingly, the climactic moment in Raven's courtship came when
>Raven DDT'd Riggs unconscious, then lamented damaging his face and claimed to
>feel his "pain." Hammer then carried Riggs out lovingly over his shoulder. What
>did Raven and his boys do to Riggs, exactly, to get him to embrace his true
>nature?
Well, let me ask you a question. What was everybody's first impression
when you saw Scotty Riggs and Marc Bagwell as the American Males? Yep,
that was my first impression, too. They looked like a couple of buff
guys that fell out of a gay bar. So this angle for Riggs makes all the
sense in the world.
As much as people like to compare Raven to a David Koresh character,
there is a lot more of a classic cult leader with homosexual tendencies
in the angle.
> And the Nest doesn't like Chris Benoit because he's simply too
>straight."
Too straight and too hot, and they "want" him. Makes sense to me.
>Raven will only feud with people who are straight? He beats people up and
>"converts" them to homosexuals? Is this rational thinking or some truly warped
>line of reasoning?
There being a homoerotic nature to most wrestling, you gotta know that a
number of these guys are not straight in rl to begin with. So if a
number of you ARE that, then it's not a big leap to think your dramatic
part demonstrates that mentality. And the truth is, one of the bigger
reasons there isn't a lot of women's wrestling in the big two is that
the people who have the power in the big two are a bunch of homos, and a
lot of the wrestlers with clout are, too. And even when certain
wrestlers try to use women as managers, it almost seems like they are
trying to cover up their homosexuality, witness Ric Flair, the most
aggregious example of that I can think of, Jeff Jarrett, etc.
>As I said, this column was really strange and I would like to hear what you all
>have to say.
I say that the reason that you probably don't catch this is that you
might have a pre-impression that gay men are a bunch of people flitting
around swinging their wrists like Richard Simmons or something. The
concept of rough macho gay men doesn't register with a lot of people,
but that is more often the rule as opposed to the exception these days.
The Insane Psychotic Taskmistress Liz Michael!!!!!!
1/2 of the World Tag Team champions-No more Miss Nice Bitch!!!!!!!!!
Bitch World Order Website - http://annex.com/taskmist/wrestlin.htm
Upcoming RSPWWCW cards just to piss people off....
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4/5 Weaselmania from Pasadena CA
CASPICER
John D. Williams <johndw...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<69o17n$a...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
> Kelly Vaters wrote:
>
> > Hayabu2354 (hayab...@aol.com) wrote:
> >
> > : "Actually, Goldust's attention-seeking gimmicks seem more like a
> > : guy who his act on a couple of porno mags he bought on his one
> > : visit to the adult book store than a real life pervert, and the
> > : audience seems to sense it."
> >
> > : Does anyone else "sense" that? I have read more than a few porno
> > : mags and I sure never sensed that. To me, Goldust just seems like
> > : a big joke, and that is what he is going for. Is what Mitchell
> > : sees something that only one who looks at things from a gay point
> > : of view would see?
> >
> > No. There has always been a "camp" element to pro wrestling, for the
> > same reasons that one could claim "camp" in say, bodybuilding or
> > escape art (au Houdini.) Goldust was, perhaps, the first-ever
> > wrestler whose gimmick openly recognized the homoerotic aspect of
> > wrestling.
>
> Goldust was nowhere near the first. Watch a little lucha, specifically
> the exoticos.
Dustin's act, IMO, seems pretty heavily influenced by Adrian Street. At
least, when Dustin initially entered the WWF, he seemed to me to be a
Street Clone. The recent stuff-your guess is as good as mine.
Carl
brew
Bob Barnett wrote:
>
> I already posted that they're Raven's Fudge Pack
>
> Hayabu2354 wrote:
> >
> > If this appears twice, I apologize. AOL has been less dependable than usual
> > lately, and it never appeared to make it up.
> >
> > Before I get to the meat of my post. I want to first say that I am not gay and
> > I don't have any friends who are gay, otherwise I would just ask them about
> > this and not post it. But, after reading this week's issue of the Pro
> > Wrestling Torch, I was very curious, and somewhat perplexed, about Bruce
> > Mitchell's column and assertions that he made. What I guess I want to know is
> > am I living in a black hole, or is Mitchell way off base, and I would
> > appreciate feedback from anyone on this. I have some passages from the article
> > quoted below. The topic of said article was the "adult" nature of wrestling
> > nowadays.
> >
> > act on a couple of porno mags he bought on his one visit to the adult book
> > store than a real life pervert, and the audience seems to sense it."
> >
> > Does anyone else "sense" that? I have read more than a few porno mags and I
> > sure never sensed that. To me, Goldust just seems like a big joke, and that is
> > what he is going for. Is what Mitchell sees something that only one who looks
> > at things from a gay point of view would see?
> >
> > isn't in the WWF or even ECW. It's in WCW, the same promotion that Eric
> > Bischoff claims is toning down on-camera misbehavior. Raven's Nest, to put it
> > bluntly, ought to be renamed Raven's Rough Trade. The clues aren't subtle. This
> > All Male-Revue features Raven, who had the classic butch/fem abusive
> > relationship with Stevie Richards, so much that the Richards character went
> > back to submissively serving Raven after declaring his supposed independence.
> > without being specific as to the reason. Everyone in the Nest vies for Raven's
> > love. Saturn didn't steal his look from Taz, he took it from Biker Boys
> > magazine. Lodi's look is straight out of every college gay bar in America.
> > shows. Nice fishnet, too. Billy Kidman has got the Bus Station Runaway look
> > down cold."
> >
> > Granted, I have never been to a "college gay bar". I have never read (or even
> > heard of) Biker Boys magazine. I sure never tried to pick up a "Bus Station
> > Runaway". I have also never been in a "butch/fem abusive relationship" (and
> > thank God I don't even know what one is". All of that being said, when I look
> > at Raven's nest I don't see the group of kinky homosexuals that Mitchell does.
> > Do you?
> >
> > distinguishing characteristic is he looks like an (American) male model (and
> > Eric Bischoff)? Tellingly, the climactic moment in Raven's courtship came when
> > Raven DDT'd Riggs unconscious, then lamented damaging his face and claimed to
> > feel his "pain." Hammer then carried Riggs out lovingly over his shoulder. What
> > did Raven and his boys do to Riggs, exactly, to get him to embrace his true
> > straight."
> >
> > Raven will only feud with people who are straight? He beats people up and
> > "converts" them to homosexuals? Is this rational thinking or some truly warped
> > line of reasoning?
> >
> > have to say.
I think you should stop reading Keller's sleaze (PWI without the color)
and buy the Observer. Quality reporting, no flash, no b.s., just a
solid read that's worth it's price.
--
brew --
Detroit Red Wings 1996-97 Stanley Cup Champions
University of Michigan Wolverines 1996 NCAA Hockey Champions
Barry Sanders 2053 yards and NFL MVP
University of Michigan Wolverines 1997 NCAA Football Champions
Charles Woodson 1997 Heisman Trophy Winner
Mattie C.
The Taskmistress <taskmi...@annex.com> wrote:
First, I would like to add that IMO this is one of the most
interesting threads I've seen on here lately!
> Well, I think a number of us observed it at the time. Yeah, I know it's
> just supposed to be a wrestling gimmick, but it sure does have a real
> feel to it.
>
That's the ECW influence for you. ECW, IMO, prompts a strong
emotional response (positive & negative) from viewers because it seems
so "real;" the wrestler's gimmicks appear to be based upon their own
personalities, not the invention of bookers.
> >Raven constantly talks of his alienation and rejection from his parents,
> >without being specific as to the reason. Everyone in the Nest vies for
> Raven's
> love. Saturn didn't steal his look from Taz, he took it from Biker Boys
> >magazine. Lodi's look is straight out of every college gay bar in
> America.
> I thought it was straight out of Billy Idol myself, but I don't tend to
> hnag around gay male bars exactly. As for Saturn, he looks like he just
> got out of the joint, so that doesn't exactly need an explanation. :-)
LOL! I've got to agree w/Taskmistress. Could it be possible
that Mitchell is doing a little "projecting," here?
> Yes, and I also see it in the NWO angle. The NWO is basically just a
> bunch of young boys who enjoy each other's company JUST a tad too much
> if you ask me. I know a lot of those guys are married, but for a bi man
> that means nothing. It doesn't help Kevin Nash either that he was
> basically in the same kind of angle with Shawn Michaels also. Yes, I
> know it's an angle, but it seems to ring of one of those "unspoken love"
> things. Elizabeth, since everybody knows she and Randy aren't together,
> seems to be playing the part of the classic fag hag....she isn't playing
> the typical wrestling bimbo.
>
Oh, Liz, you've nailed this one right on the head.
>
> > And the Nest doesn't like Chris Benoit because he's simply too
> >straight."
>
> Too straight and too hot, and they "want" him. Makes sense to me.
>
I*T*A w/ this! ;o)
> And the truth is, one of the bigger
> reasons there isn't a lot of women's wrestling in the big two is that
> the people who have the power in the big two are a bunch of homos, and a
> lot of the wrestlers with clout are, too. And even when certain
> wrestlers try to use women as managers, it almost seems like they are
> trying to cover up their homosexuality, witness Ric Flair, the most
> aggregious example of that I can think of, Jeff Jarrett, etc.
>
WTF?! I never got that impression from Flair. Never. Please
explain this further! I just don't see it.
> I say that the reason that you probably don't catch this is that you
> might have a pre-impression that gay men are a bunch of people flitting
> around swinging their wrists like Richard Simmons or something. The
> concept of rough macho gay men doesn't register with a lot of people,
> but that is more often the rule as opposed to the exception these days.
SCSA - the prototypical butch gay dreamboat. If middle America
knew this, I seriously doubt he'd be as popular as he is.
Maybe the reason so many fans (and writers) are uncomfortable
w/Raven and his Flock is that besides their Gen X appearance, they are
subconsciously challenging their stereotypical notions of what "gay"
means. They scare them.
It's one thing to bash and discriminate against a "typical" fem:
he's no threat. He's like a woman - he has no obvious physical strength
or superiority.
It's quite another to confront an angry Raven or Perry Saturn.
They're not "feminine." They'll fight back. (Well, the Flock would.
Raven's workrate seems to have declined lately.) They could kick your
ass. They could dominate and humiliate you. That has to be a
frightening idea to the hetero male. (And a familiar fear of women
everywhere.)
Maybe they're afraid they'de like that. Ring a bell, Liz? ;o)
The Scotty Riggs/Raven angle reminds me of Luke & Laura on
General Hospital, back in the '80's. Luke wanted Laura, Laura wanted
Luke but was w/Scotty, Luke can't woo Laura, so in desperation he rapes
her. Laura discovers she really likes the rough stuff, and runs off
w/Luke. The whole concept is a staple in the "bodice ripper" genre of
Romantic fiction. The nWo defections after beatings are a variation on
this theme.
--
Mattie C.
A good scapegoat is nearly as welcome as a solution to the problem.