WILL THE UK SURPASS THE USA IN THE PROGRESSION OF ULTIMATE.
joad...@ec.rr.com
dominated every facet of ultimate......but how long will that last.
Canada has already proven to be an equal foe (competitively) and now
japan is chomping at the heels. And organizational wise the upa
probably boasts more membership than any other organization.
Yesterday i got a personal e-mail from some guy from the UK that
informed me that they were planning on running a reffed tourny/league
(assumingly for the elite teams). Now i, at the same time, do and
dont really understand why people reach out to me personally to gather
insights as to programming reffed ulty. Obviously they know its been
experimented with and obviously i am known as the "resident expert"
when it comes to reffed ulti. But at the same time all the
transitions and adjustments that it would take to get ultimate to have
a standardized "reffed" rule enforcement OPTION are as obvious as the
nose on your face. I mean, the writings on the wall. All ANYBODY
has to really do is apply the same rule enforcement principals that
are used in all other popular sports to the sport of ultimate.
It was sad to see MLU just fizzle out in the way that it did. and i
wont lie, i still remain dishartened and perplexed as to why it simply
died on the vine in the way that it did. Last year i herd that ian
(one of the main forces behind getting MLU off the ground) was
planning on resurfacing with MLU (or a similar product). I myself
wrote up a proposal for the huddle (which i'm assuming will be ignored
by upa administrators......because i didnt send it directly to
them.....even though its highly probable that THEY ALL READ IT) which
laid out a very plausable plan for the upa to organize, manage and OWN
such a league..
So, basically, the door is wide open for someone, anyone, to be the
first to create a modernized version of elite ultimate comp (geared
towards entertainment) that will take roots and prosper. My question
is.....are americans, who live in the birth place of the sport, gonna
let another country beat them to the punch in the developement of such
a league? I know ive said the the upa is very very reactive when it
comes to the development and progressiveness of the sport, but to let
people from outside the usa to set the precedent for ultimates destiny
is a EXTREEMLY weak.
I'm totally stoked for the guys from the UK that are ploting and
scheming to make this thing happen and not only wish them the best of
luck but will also do whatever i can to assist them in making their
dreams a reality. I dont know what else i can really do for my fellow
contrymen to help organize, motivate, shame, goat them/you into
initiating this inevitable transition. Maybe people over their just
arent as aloof and lame as americans in this reguard. Oh well, only
time will tell.
Baer
goes... I wonder if Ultimate in other countries has the same divisive
controversies as American Ultimate does, but I doubt it. These
controversies include refs vs self-offciation-forever and a C1 concept
vs. the UPA's current competive series structure (which is undergoing
reforms).
A possible way to oversimplify these issues (I realize it's not as
black-and-white as this, but for the sake of this discussion...) is to
say the controversies in American Ultimate come down to those who
would prefer to see the sport become more competitive, and more
legitimate relative to mainstream sports vs. the grass-roots crowd who
likes things the way they are. To put it more bluntly, we are dealing
with the perception of Ultimate as a hippie anti-sport and resistance
to let go of or change grass-roots traditions. I doubt the hippie
culture was/is as prominent in the UK or Japan as it was/is in the USA
(maybe Canada too?).
Some of us think that certain principles of sports, such as
independent arbitrators, the human nature of competition, etc, are
common sense issues, while others disagree. Perhaps in other
countries, they are looking at Ultimate as another fun sport that
should be treated just like any other sport, instead of the counter-
culture anti-sport that many Americans associate with Ultimate. Maybe
this will eventually lead to certain progression in the development
(and marketing) of the game that Americans seem to be torn on and
resistant to. This is all speculation on my part of course...
Do soccer players and cricket players (for example) look at Ultimate
players in the UK and say "that's a hippie sport," "where's your dog,"
or "my son plays that, there's one of those courses with the baskets
near our house"? does anyone know? Are players in UK, Japan,
Australia, and Canada as adamantly opposed to refs as many American
players and the UPA are? Do international players say that they don't
want the sport to get bigger because better athletes will come in and
take their spots? Do international players view corporate sponsorship
as selling out?
Frank Huguenard
> So, basically, the door is wide open for someone, anyone, to be the
> first to create a modernized version of elite ultimate comp (geared
> towards entertainment) that will take roots and prosper.
I did.
It's called Dischoops.
Play it, it's fun.
joad...@ec.rr.com
show me a reffed version of dh first.
stephen...@gmail.com
It would be really interesting to see dh with its full set of
officials. I bet this would turn a lot of people onto it.
Adam Tarr
they don't have stripes, what's the point?
Torre
>
> > I did.
>
> > It's called Dischoops.
>
> > Play it, it's fun.
>
> >www.dischoops.com
>
> show me a reffed version of dh first.
Please don't encourage another "teaser" video.
enemycom...@gmail.com
You need to get back to work. The patients are stacking up. You got a
craniotomy on the table, and a neuroendoscopy waiting in pre-op.
Could you leave your frisbee friends alone for awhile? At least finish
up the craniotomy. The guy's a mess.
Thanks.
Toad's boss
joad...@ec.rr.com
> Very interesting question. I'll see where my random train of thought
> goes... I wonder if Ultimate in other countries has the same divisive
> controversies as American Ultimate does, but I doubt it. These
> controversies include refs vs self-offciation-forever and a C1 concept
> vs. the UPA's current competive series structure (which is undergoing
> reforms).
lets keep it real bear. c1 is nothing but a college version of nua/
mlu. i wouldnt for a second lump the c1 controversy in with the whole
ref controversy that has been evident since the inception of
ultimate. The question is, do other countries have any devisive
(obnoxious and/or antagonistic) people, LIKE ME,. that question
authority, tradition AND the basic structure of the sport as well as
the admin that runs it in their area. I know you are a proponent of
refs too baer but you are way to soft and its obvious you prefer to
not wake waves. The upa admin, with their numbers and power/control,
will chew up and spit out people like you without you even knowing
it......leaving you amoungst the rest of the apathetic and aloof.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> A possible way to oversimplify these issues (I realize it's not as
> black-and-white as this, but for the sake of this discussion...) is to
> say the controversies in American Ultimate come down to those who
> would prefer to see the sport become more competitive, and more
> legitimate relative to mainstream sports vs. the grass-roots crowd who
> likes things the way they are.
see baer, this is where you lose your grasp. It IS as black and white
as that. and its probably the upa admin thats lulled you into
thinking otherwise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To put it more bluntly, we are dealing
> with the perception of Ultimate as a hippie anti-sport and resistance
> to let go of or change grass-roots traditions. I doubt the hippie
> culture was/is as prominent in the UK or Japan as it was/is in the USA
> (maybe Canada too?).
eh, youre over thinking it. Hippys only existed for a very short
period in time. after that it was all a bunch of posers that took on
that "hippy" lable. shit, even when i use that term its more of a
derogetory lable. I know for a fact that that there arent ANY hippies
that play ultimate. Now i cant say the same for gays, even though i
use that term in the same derogetory fasion. Its more a matter of
buying into a soft (dont keep score/everybodys a winner) version of
sports competition that is better suited for people that cant handle
the argo-ness of traditional reffed sports. Its just that those soft
types , from the beggining, gravitated towards "being part of the
scene" through administrative contributions. since then its just
snowballed and now its obvious that all upa administrators are "of
that kind". hence there desperate attempts to preserve sotg and kill
reffes ulti.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Some of us think that certain principles of sports, such as
> independent arbitrators, the human nature of competition, etc, are
> common sense issues, while others disagree.
it just unfortunate that those in control of ultimates destiny
"disagree".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps in other
> countries, they are looking at Ultimate as another fun sport that
> should be treated just like any other sport, instead of the counter-
> culture anti-sport that many Americans associate with Ultimate.
if you go by wfdf thats definitely NOT the case. shit, wfdf makes the
upa look like, well, me. which is why i was so surprised of the
recent contact i got from the uk expressing intrest in hosting a MLU
type event/league. and from all reports i've herd on aussie ulti,
they are just as ate up with it as the american spirit zealots.....if
not more.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe
> this will eventually lead to certain progression in the development
> (and marketing) of the game that Americans seem to be torn on and
> resistant to. This is all speculation on my part of course...
why do you feel the need to tip toe around the issue baer.......its
not just speculation......its the truth, and you know it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Do soccer players and cricket players (for example) look at Ultimate
> players in the UK and say "that's a hippie sport," "where's your dog,"
> or "my son plays that, there's one of those courses with the baskets
> near our house"?
i'd say YES
------------------------------------------------
does anyone know?
i'd bet there are that know.......but as with american spirit zealots,
they are all probably in a deep state of denile ( in thinking that
they actually CAN "change the wourld thru ultimate"). baer, you are
aware that the president of our bod has the delusional fantasy that
eventually, if sotg can be preserved in ulti, that other sports will
see the merrits of our self officiation system and actually adopt it
into there sports. Now you cant tell me that that mentality is more
than just a little koo koo.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are players in UK, Japan,
> Australia, and Canada as adamantly opposed to refs as many American
> players and the UPA are?
obviously not in the uk. and not so much as the upa would like you to
think they are in america. Did you happen to read the interview with
josh mccarthy (WINNER OF THE 08 NATIONALS MALE SPIRIT AWARD). hES
FUCKING CALLIN FOR REFS AND EVOLUTION (in so many words). Its just
that the upa spins shit how they want so that those crys go unherd.
cant you see that. Its not ALL americans that are opposed to refs,
conformity and modernization......its just the spirit zealot admin and
their base. C'mon baer, open you eyes and quit being so soft.
------------------------------------------------------------
Do international players say that they don't
> want the sport to get bigger because better athletes will come in and
> take their spots?
you can bet your bottom dollar that their spirit zealot types do!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do international players view corporate sponsorship
> as selling out?
are you saying americans do that here??? if so, thats why i found it
completely ironic that josh mccarthy (spirit winner), for a living, is
a corporate layer.......and one that obviously knows how to, and isnt
beyond, manipulating the rules of this sport to his advantage
(according to his interview anyways).
joad...@ec.rr.com
> But Toad, what about the stripes?
what about em?
----------------------------
Will the refs have stripes?
whos refs? dischoops refs? you have to ask frank that (but i would
think they would).....or the refs they plan on using in the uk event/
league?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If
> they don't have stripes, what's the point?
or a whistle? BUT i'd rather ultimate have refs that wore stupid
looking orange shirts than your present whistle-less observers wearing
stripes. Of course you would have the best of bothworld if they not
only acted right but also dressed right.
are these the answers yopu were fishin for?, you geek
joad...@ec.rr.com
bzzzt wrong....I'M MY OWN GODDAMNED BOSS. see baer, this is the form
of "denial" i'm refering to. these chumps cant even face the issue so
they go out of their way to "try" to be funny and joke it off. its a
sad state of affairs.
MrP...@gmail.com
Caesar's. Ergo, sport knows know national boundaries.
2) Pretty unlikely that the UK refs would wear stripes, since they'd
just look like Newcastle United from the EPL:
http://www.nufc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Home/0,,10278,00.html
3) Toadie, the American tribalism thing might span party lines a bit,
but it's pretty solidly associated with Republicans and people too
dumb to realize that they're not Republicans (e.g., Toby Keith).
Country is country, disc is disc.
~p
Theodore Hex
Cheers,
Ted
joad...@ec.rr.com
> If we pay for Toad's flight across the pond, will you keep him?
what, i cant access rsd from there??
------------------------------------------
Jim Mallon
Dischoops is to Ultimate as rhythmic gymnastics is to gymnastics.
Theodore Hex
True enough. You could start a new int'l NGO -- Bitchers & Moaners Who
Aren't Actually Doing Shit Without Borders.
ager...@yahoo.com
HHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Adam
the U.K.
I would like to stress that this is just an experiment, much like the
MLU tournament ran at Potlach in 2006. It is not an official UKUA (our
UPA) tournament - just some students trying to get Allstar regional
teams together to try out some different rules.
We will most definately use black and white striped tops for the refs,
just because Newcastle Utd wear those stripes doesn't mean no-one else
can :S plus it adds an American feel to the tournament and we all know
Americans are better at ultimate.
If anyone has any comments or suggestions on how to run an MLU
tournament, please let me know
Felix
about whether observers should become active / referees, there was a
discussion on the Eurodisc mailing list about whether observers should
be implemented, and opinion was split but I believe tended towards a
Yes by the end:
http://www.ira.uka.de/~thgries/disc/EuroDisc-Archive/2008/Nov/ (under
the COTD thread - the later messages (first ones are about rules))
Eurodisc is by no means an average cross section of the European disc
community though - I have read some quite wacky things there which
have gone un-argued. I'd say in the UK that opinion is split about
whether observers should be included, probably outside the top 12
teams there are far fewer who think they should be. We never really
discuss referees, as observers is the next step.
There are no sports I can think of played big time in the UK which
have refs wearing stripes, so it would solely be for the American feel
(though I'd say orange/yellow would have the same or even more of an
effect)...
Felix
ps. 15 mins of highlights from the EUCF Final they are all talking
about are included on the Push Pass DVD. Free postage til Thursday!
http://www.pushpass.co.uk
joad...@ec.rr.com
> I am the person that contacted Toad about running an MLU tournament in
> the U.K.
welcome to rsd adam.....and be sure to keep us americans posted as to
how everything goes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I would like to stress that this is just an experiment, much like the
> MLU tournament ran at Potlach in 2006.
well that ournament was by no means an "experiment". it may have
turned out to be one but the initial plan was to make it into an
ongoing summertime/offseason select league. It simply petered out
(why, to this day, i still dont know) and was one and done.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is not an official UKUA (our
> UPA) tournament - just some students trying to get Allstar regional
> teams together to try out some different rules.
and what has been the reaction from the UKUA? because the upa was
never supportive of any efforts to run (or help promote) reffereed
ultimate. in fact the seemed quite appauled just by the thought of it
(and even desperately re-wrote the definition of ultimate so to
exclude reffed ulti from its description). even though their own data
suggests that even half of the 6% they polled WERENT appauled.....but
actually had intrest in experimentation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> We will most definately use black and white striped tops for the refs,
> just because Newcastle Utd wear those stripes doesn't mean no-one else
> can :S plus it adds an American feel to the tournament and we all know
> Americans are better at ultimate.
i could see "stripes" for officials being a little odd over there.
Its all based on what the potential veiwership are generally
accustomed to imo.......and over here, we're accustomed to stripes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> If anyone has any comments or suggestions on how to run an MLU
> tournament, please let me know
i would search old mlu and/or nua threads on rsd to get more detailed
info on what peoples general reactions and thoughts on the matter
are.......and you have my contact so you'll be alright. you just have
to have that go for it/just do it mentality and understand that any
feelings of reluctancy will soon turn into liberation once you get on
the field and start your initial experimentation.
One thing that was done in that MLU event that you DEFINITELY DONT wat
to do is to throw together your ref crew(s) at the last minute with
out any training or practice. Also getting the right people to ref is
key. So dont get any soft anti ref types like the host (NW Wolves)
team did.