Would Beau on USA made the difference?

[jimmy d]

This summary from Match Diesel got me thinking.

"Canada comes back with ANOTHER huck to Mike Grant, he's just blowing
up, there is no answer for him. "

Canada had some of the GOAT guys (not sure how many) and they beat USA
17-15.

I've seen Beau and Grant go head-to-head deep before. I bet Grant
doesn't get but half of the hucks caught with Mr. (near) 'Olympic 400'
on him.

Does it make sense to have a core team (i.e. Sockeye) and then add a
few all-star players from other squads?

-jd

[Paul P]

The same question posed in a diferent way:

Would sending the Celtics, intact, increase the likelyhood of winning
the gold than sending an NBA all-star team to the olympics?

Discuss.

Paul P

[joad...@ec.rr.com]

On Aug 11, 11:13 am, Paul P <paulp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The same question posed in a diferent way:
>
> Would sending the Celtics, intact, increase the likelyhood of winning
> the gold than sending an NBA all-star team to the olympics?

NO!......hence, the dream (and now "redeem") team.

[Fish]

because i went to watch the game, i got an opportunity to see a lot of
the things happen down field that you don't get to see on video. my
friends and i were paying particular attention to mike grant and the
things he did as a cutter. he was definitely the best player on the
field. but there was a difference in how he impacted the game
depending on who was guarding him.

with seth guarding him, grant was forced under for the most part, and
though he caught the disc on a lot of cuts, seth did a good job of
shutting down his deep throws and preventing him from making any
gainers.

with nate castine guarding grant, grant had the biggest challenge of
the day. castine was lightning quick, was always within a step, and
got that huge layout d on the under cut that was simply filthy from
where i was sitting.

unfortunately, castine was only really on grant for one or two points,
and the guy who guarded him most of the game was...

...alex nord. and nord looked pretty awful. he was always three or
four steps behind grant, made no really meaningful impact on offense
(except his two turnovers), and on defense he looked pretty confused.
grant was able to beat him out time after time, and i can remember one
point in which nord picked up grant on a turn and looked for a switch
when grant started going out. the problem was that nobody else on
sockeye had seen any kind of switch, so nord was left standing in the
middle of the field looking for someone to guard while grant trickled
out to score team canada's 16th point.

so, the point isn't that sockeye needed beau. they just needed to keep
castine or seth on grant. in fact, nord marked up on grant for the
majority of the game and did a pretty bad job at it.

fish

[jacob]

"the point isn't that sockeye needed beau. they just needed to keep
castine or seth on grant."

Seth and Nord are clearly great players, and I hear Nate is amazing,
but .... Beau is the possibly the most athletic ("athletic" including
not just speed and jumping, but also disc reading, field sense and
agility) big man to ever play the game, with Cribber, Mike Grant,
Brian Linkfield, Chase, Paul Greff, Bob Lobell and a few others in the
same neighborhood. Do you really not think Sockeye would have
benefited from having Beau?

[schmidtacular]

Obviously this is a pretty dumb question to begin with if you are
suggesting that adding Beau to the roster would possibly have not been
beneficial--since obviously adding a player of his caliber to the USA
roster would have given them another set of legs at minimum. On the
other hand, the question is more interesting if you are inferring that
by adding Beau, you have to eliminate another guy from the roster...

[Nirvana]

...And that player would apparently be Aly Lenon, who had zero fantasy
points for the entire tournament.

[Fish]

my point was simply this: the difference between sockeye winning and
losing was not so big that beau was necessary to make the difference.
i was saying that sockeye was good enough on that day to beat furious,
if only they had played the match-ups smarter.

would beau have helped sockeye win the game? absolutely. no question.
but we don't need to go outside the sockeye roster to talk about what
they could have done differently to win the championship. i believe a
minor adjustment might have made the difference.

fish

[jacob]

Fish: "would beau have helped sockeye win the game? absolutely. no
question."

Bill O'Reilly: "OK, that's all I needed to hear. You are admitting
that Jimmy D was right. We're all out of time. Thank you."

[Frankie]

You're a funny man Jacob. Keep it up.
"jacob" <jacob...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2c8f17d-8545-49bc...@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com...

[canadian]

> Does it make sense to have a core team (i.e. Sockeye) and then add a
> few all-star players from other squads?
>
> -jd

To answer your original question: YES.

All of the out of province pick-ups for Furious got significant PT in
the final (Derek Alexander from Phoenix, Eric St-Amant from Mephisto,
and John Hassle, Andy O and Anatoly Vasilyev from Goat). Alexander and
Hassle played like every O point. Clearly, these guys made a huge
impact for team Canada and some might argue were the difference in the
game.

[rahil.suleman]

Almost All, you forgot the sparkplug, Scotty Nicholls, who even though
wasn't in the game, was huge on the sidelines. Scotty we heard you
screaming on the videocast.

[Douglas T Lilley]

I was very impressed with Derek Alexander's playing. Don't know
anything about him but he sure brought it in the finals.

[Knappy]

Would picking up ringers from top competition have helped Sockeye?
Aside from the obvious evidence of the role that out- of-province
players had on FG, just look at US Masters team & the stats from Husak/
Dugan in the finals. They won a tight finals, and the write-ups seem
to suggest the ex-Condors played a big role (Namkung=injured.)

I brought this up on RSD back in March. I was surprised they weren't
taking advantage of the clause where UPA allowed them to pick up 3 all
stars from other teams.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.disc/browse_thread/thread/dc5a798b50a14a51/4adb826f1fbb0ff9?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=worlds+sockeye+knappy#4adb826f1fbb0ff9

[jacob]

"I brought this up on RSD back in March."

You're quite the visionary, aren't you?

[Knappy]

I prefer the term, "poor man's Miss Cleo".

But, visionary will do.

[canadian]

On Aug 11, 2:46 pm, "rahil.suleman" <rahil.sule...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Almost All, you forgot the sparkplug, Scotty Nicholls.

Thanks for pointing that out Rahil.

And in my original post it should read John Hassell, not John Hassle.
My bad on the spelling error.

[joe]

Was Sockeye allowed to pickup any non-Sockeye players? If so, why
didn't they add beau, zip, bart, gibson, dahl, tunnell, cahill, shane
(Defense situations), or some other elite player to the roster. While
all the sockeye are great players, some of the reserves can't touch
the type of talent those few elite players have.

Then also touching on the defensive assignments...where was skip? He
is probably the biggest sparkplug on that team (from an outsider's
perspective) and plays phenomenal defense. Did he even play a point?

[Douglas T Lilley]

I think they could only add three non roster players and those were
the Condors (Namkung et al). Could be wrong but that is my
understanding.

[joe]

Namkung played for Sockeye? He wasn't listed on their roster, didn't
notice him playing either

[Douglas T Lilley]

Think he was injured.Could be wrong.

[celebrat...@gmail.com]

Well this thread is about 19 posts too long.

"Would Beau on USA made the difference?" Yes.

Thanks for reading and posting everyone.

[celebrat...@gmail.com]

Different beasts, but the thought experiment is worthwhile. The
Celtics would get owned. And how could you ever leave Kobe, LeBron, or
CP3 off the roster? Seriously, name the Celtics' 12th man. Right,
neither can I.

Plus, increasingly, the odds of a foreigner winning an NBA title are
high. Hypothetically, how would you send the Spurs without Duncan or
Parker or Ginobli? Wait a sec.... no wonder I hate the Spurs.

Here's a nice list of foreign stand-outs in the NBA --
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=All-World-30Best

Al

[jacob]

D Lilley: "I think they could only add three non roster players and

those were the Condors (Namkung et al). Could be wrong but that is my
understanding."

Joe: "Namkung played for Sockeye? He wasn't listed on their roster,
didn't notice him playing either."

Namkung, Dugan and Hollywood played masters for team USA at worlds,
not open.

[Douglas T Lilley]

Gotcha. Sorry. Thanks.

[Nicholas Philbrook]

> I brought this up on RSD back in March. I was surprised they weren't
> taking advantage of the clause where UPA allowed them to pick up 3 all
> stars from other teams.

Can anyone point me to where this is written down (by the UPA mostly,
but I would be interested in other country's organizations' guidelines
as well)? I have been wondering for a while what the official rules
on teams at WUC were, but the icultimate blog post referenced from the
post linked to from here is the closest I've found...and that's not
very official.

Who did the other (non-US-and-Canada) countries send? Sorry if I'm
way behind on this...couldn't find it anywhere else. Thanks.

[Nicholas Philbrook]

On Aug 11, 7:57 am, jimmy d <rev_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> This summary from Match Diesel got me thinking.
>
> "Canada comes back with ANOTHER huck to Mike Grant, he's just blowing
> up, there is no answer for him. "
>
> Canada had some of the GOAT guys (not sure how many) and they beat USA
> 17-15.
>
> I've seen Beau and Grant go head-to-head deep before. I bet Grant
> doesn't get but half of the hucks caught with Mr. (near) 'Olympic 400'
> on him.
>
> Does it make sense to have a core team (i.e. Sockeye) and then add a
> few all-star players from other squads?
>
> -jd

Out of curiosity, how much did the GOAT/other eastern Canada players
practice with Furious before Worlds? That seems to be the real crux
of the matter...I think it would be tough to argue that a full-on all-
star USA team wouldn't do better than Sockeye given the opportunity to
practice extensively together (ala Dream/Redeem team). But of course
we don't have money for that in Ultimate...folks still have to work
their day jobs and pay their own way. Whether 3 ringers with limited
practice would have helped...meh, I'll leave that one to the existing
responses.

[jacob]

"Whether 3 ringers with limited practice would have helped...meh, I'll
leave that one to the existing responses."

Or you could just go to YouTube and put Beau Kittridge in the search
engine. It will become clear to you very quickly that this guy would
have helped Sockeye, without having practiced with them beforehand.
Not that I'm arguing Sockeye should have invited him to play with them
at Worlds. Would have and should have are two different things.

[Barbu]

Derek Alexander used to play with FG a few years back. Moved to Ottawa
where he's the captain of the team I believe.

[Jon Rayner]

On Aug 12, 12:51 pm, Barbu <BarbuSi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Derek Alexander used to play with FG a few years back. Moved to Ottawa
> where he's the captain of the team I believe.

True that Derek's played with Furious or Furious-dominated teams in
the past (UPAs, Worlds 04, World Games 05)... but I'm pretty sure he's
lived in Ottawa his whole playing career. Here's a link to an old
Chasing Plastic profile:

http://www.chasingplastic.com/archives/issue-pages/v3i1/young-guns.htm

Lugsdin was originally an Ottawa guy too, so still has plenty of
connections:

http://canadaultimate.blogspot.com/2007/11/talking-with-trainor-andrew-lugsdin.html

Jeff Sward is another current Phoenix player who played Canada Open in
Vancouver. Jeff played Canada Mixed in Turku, and with GOAT at UPAs in
04.

[rdelc...@gmail.com]

So how did Matt Rehder do? Did he play much?

[Thomas Griesbaum]

Nicholas Philbrook schrieb:

>> I brought this up on RSD back in March. I was surprised they weren't
>> taking advantage of the clause where UPA allowed them to pick up 3 all
>> stars from other teams.
>
> Can anyone point me to where this is written down (by the UPA mostly,
> but I would be interested in other country's organizations' guidelines
> as well)? I have been wondering for a while what the official rules

> on teams at WUC were, ...

I don't know what regulations UPA decided on but within those of WFDF
but here are the current eligibility rules of WFDF:

http://www.wfdf.org/rules/NTPER_WFDF_Ultimate_Worlds_Events_2007-12-17.pdf

Most countries other than the USA and Canada send
all-star teams.

Thomas