Who is Josh Moore?
Baer
regarding Ultimate leagues in the midwest, and I had never heard of
him. His ideas indicate that he is not relaly dialed in to the
Ultimate community, but before I reveal everything he proposed for
public scrutiny, I wanted to see if anyone else had talked to this
guy.
Has anyone here heard of Josh Moore?
Paul Utesch
Never heard of him. Beware of pyramid/ponzi/kan jam schemes.
gimp
Not necessarily an uncommon name but the only Josh Moore I know was a
multiple NCAA AA wrestler for Penn State (in the 125/141 range) now
coaching at Kent State.
Douglas T Lilley
> This guy is proposing a professional Ultimate league in the midwest
> (think about that for a minute!). Apparently his only Ultimate
> experience is playing intramurals at Missouri several years ago and
> lives in Omaha now, but no one I have spoken to with ties to Nebraska
> or Mizzou know who he is.
>
> His plan is clearly full of holes, but I thought the RSD readers would
> find the idea amusing. Everyone I have talked to thinks the guy is
> either a scam artist or just seriously misguided.
No doubt he has investors lined up around the block to finance a
professional Ultimate league.
Dave
Is GAIA sponsoring his plan? Maybe Circuit City?
cp
to try to find ultimate overseas, and I just got a message
from him today, but he's relocated to the northeast now.
Josh Moore sent you a message on Sportsvite.
Subject: Ultimate Frisbee
"Hello,
I found you through the Baltimore Sportsvite.com site while
looking for people who enjoy Ultimate Frisbee. My name is
Josh Moore and I am the owner of a new professional ultimate
league in the Northeast US and am looking for people who
might be interested in team ownership in the Baltimore area.
If this is something you would have some interest in
learning more about, please e-mail me at j for more details.
No experience is necessary, I am looking for people who
love sports and are willing to put forth the effort to run a
successful team. Thank you for your time."
--
Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com
california_encounter
pro ultimate league. His name is on that website too.
Baer
WTF?!?! Surprised to see this old thread bumped! This guy is
an interesting fella.
kiipii wrote on Thu, 17 February 2011 22:01
> "Hello,
> I found you through the Baltimore Sportsvite.com site
> while looking for people who enjoy Ultimate Frisbee. My
> name is Josh Moore and I am the owner of a new
> professional ultimate league in the Northeast US and am
> looking for people who might be interested in team
> ownership in the Baltimore area. If this is something you
> would have some interest in learning more about, please
> e-mail me at j for more details. No experience is
> necessary, I am looking for people who love sports and are
> willing to put forth the effort to run a successful team.
> Thank you for your time."
I'll have to dig through some of my old emails, but I think
this message is nearly identical to the one he sent to one
of my colleagues a couple years ago (substituting
"Northeast" for "Midwest" at the time).
When he was in Omaha, I actually met up with Josh Moore over
a beer to see what he was all about. He was a nice enough
guy, but certainly did not know the first thing about
Ultimate at the time.
So, looking at the EUDL site, I sense something funny...
I'll try to pull up some of my old email exchanges to
refresh myself and share with you all if the Ultimate
community would like to know more (Josh Moore is not a
member of the Ultimate community in any capacity, or at
least he wasn't 2 years ago).
Josh Moore
enough to e-mail me recently and let me know this thread had
popped back up. This thread concerns me only because
potential owners who might be searching on some information
about myself and my league might come across it and have
some concerns based on some of the comments. I understand
the doubts and I have no problems with people questioning
the validity of the league.
To clear up some of the things mentioned, I did meet with
Colin a couple years back when I first started developing a
pro league and he was gracious enough to discuss the sport
with me. At that time I was going to build a league in the
Midwest centered around Omaha, where I still reside.
However, after doing some more work and giving more though I
concluded that a league on the East coast would be much more
likely to succeed based on the population and popularity of
the sport being much higher there. So I set up the EUDL and
have been marketing to find owners for teams. This thread
came back to life when somebody I contacted in the Baltimore
area found this thread, so I felt that since this was still
floating on the Internet for eternity, it be best to
explain. The EUDL will launch its inaugural season in 2012,
and we will look to reach out to the ultimate community much
more as we approach that time. I have a couple cities, such
as Baltimore, where I am still looking for an owner. But
either way, we have enough teams to get going and are moving
forward with the venture. I welcome anybody who would like
to learn more about our league to contact me, as I am always
happy to discuss the EUDL.
Thank you,
Josh Moore, President
Eastern Ultimate Disc League
www.the-eudl.com
Reggie Fanelli
---need some good officials for your games???
Ultimate Observers Association
Bulb
Mike, but I think your observers might get more experience
observing middle school games.
Reggie Fanelli
> Mike, but I think your observers might get more experience
> observing middle school games.
---to fail to offer...would be NOT running our organization!
Josh Moore
If you could, please e-mail me through our website and we
can discuss offline.
Thank you,
Josh
Reggie Fanelli
> If you could, please e-mail me through our website and we
> can discuss offline.
--hi Josh,
What website?
Mike Gerics
agerics20 at yahoo dot com
Josh Moore
Smoothie
> Hi Mike, the website iswww.the-eudl.com. I look forward to
Josh, this is typically where Mike asks you to copy and paste the
contents of your website here on RSD, as he refuses to click on links.
He knows observers...communication, not so much.
Just trying to speed the process up.
Josh Moore
e-mail address, so I will reach out to him through there.
J Mac
Ho-ly shit. Talk about destined to fail from the start. I don't
wanna be an asshole here or anything, but why the fuck would you
change it to 8 players per team? I can at least think of some crazy
reasons you would change 70 with 25s to 80 with 20s and change the
stall to 7, but changing the number of players is just stupid. Have
you ever played ultimate before?
Daag Alemayehu
Adding one more player to each side = destined to fail? Really?
mixnuts
more "exciting" ultimate happens when there's more open
space. 8 per side = more clogging = more dump-swing
ultimate, which is not exactly riveting to watch.
enjoitheworld416
more defensive stops. It would make the game a lot harder to
score. This would probably translate to more layout d's and
exciting skies. Not saying it would be good or bad but from
a marketing standpoint I could see how it could make the
game more exciting.
J Mac
> Adding one more player to each side = destined to fail?
> Really?
Yes, for at least two reasons.
First off, name another sport where the number of players on
the field differs between pro and amateur. Granted, other
sports these days typically take the lead from pros and
ultimate would be backwards, but what is played on pickup
fields in every sport should mirror what is one the field.
Secondly, in a sport where offense and defense strategy are
so important and established, changing the number of players
is idiotic. Why make all these players who have played for
years with 7 on the line change that unnecessarily. It
demonstrates, to me at least, that Josh Moore either does
not understand the game very well or is so
stubborn/obstinate/egotistical that he thinks he should be
able to change the game for a completely arbitrary reason.
And a bonus reason, which is probably the best reason, if
WFDF, the USAU, and UOA all agree on something, then that
shit is ought to be in the hardest fucking stone available.
j mac
Baer
and knowledge of Ultimate has been? What have you been doing
and what have you learned about Ultimate in the past two
years?
How do you plan to: attract fans? Attract sponsors? Make
money?
ulticritic
actually, the only way i could see 8 per side working would be if they
enlarges the field to the size of a regulation football field.
ulticritic
word......and, if anything, he should change it to 6 per team just so
there are less resourses(due to smaller rosters) needed to keep the
league afloat
Josh Moore
what the max roster size would be. We will more than likely
have 7 players on a side but will firm that up when we vote
at our owner's meeting. We will not shy from making some
changes to the way the game is traditionally played.
Reggie Fanelli
---huh?
you'd have to ask my observers and the teams who attend my tournaments
about my communication.
i'd call it...super communicative.
Baer
> Maybe Josh can explain to the group what his experience
> with and knowledge of Ultimate has been?
By the way, I didn't intend for my prevous post to sound as
if one needs a stellar personal resume in Ultimate in order
to get involved, and lord knows the sport needs some new
blood and business acumen. Most of us would love to see a
professional Ultimate league.
However, one definitely should have knowledge of and a
relationship with the sport before they attempt to profit
from it. Josh Moore needs a little credibility, otherwise
his sales pitch via email sounds like one I once heard from
a Nigerian prince.
Reggie Fanelli
> wanna be an asshole here or anything, but why the fuck would you
> change it to 8 players per team? I can at least think of some crazy
> reasons you would change 70 with 25s to 80 with 20s and change the
> stall to 7, but changing the number of players is just stupid. Have
> you ever played ultimate before?
---personally....i don't see the trouble with 8 players.....but in
that case, i'd leave the endzone at 25.
no way to know....until someone tries it and lets us know...
Reggie Fanelli
> WFDF, the USAU, and UOA all agree on something, then that
> shit is ought to be in the hardest fucking stone available.
---7 on 7 seems to have worked for as long as i can recall.
word.
Paul
ulticritic
> Hi Mike, the website iswww.the-eudl.com. I look forward to
> hearing from you.
>
> Thanks,
> Josh
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
every time i click on this link is says NOT FOUND.
JG
Reggie Fanelli
> more "exciting" ultimate happens when there's more open
> space. 8 per side = more clogging = more dump-swing
> ultimate, which is not exactly riveting to watch.
---lord...if theres going to be MORE dumping and swinging....then the
sport is absolutely going to hell in a handbasket.
it's already half-way there with this crappy spread O that everyone
runs...dumb swing, dumb swing, dumb swing(those are dumb dumps)
abolish the ground tap and the dump swing spread O and we'd be on to
something here!
ulticritic
well, it says on the website that they are using a 53 yard wide field
so with 7 guys there is gonna be more space thus more scoring. but
mike, what about the idea af making backwards passes illegal to ensure
no dump swinging and making "O's" come up with strategies that are
more about attacking the goal. know that i'm just brainstorming here.
ulticriticRocks
> On Feb 23, 9:33 am, Reggie Fanelli
There's always the possibility of a shot clock. You can
throw backwards all you want, but you're going to stall out
and have to throw up a prayer when the shot clock winds
down.
J Mac
I find it very interesting that your "suggestion" would differ from
the way the sport has been played for over 40 years. There are plenty
of aspects of the sport that are debated but I am hard pressed to
think of a single time the number of players on the field has been
questioned. "We will not shy from making some changes to the way the
game is traditionally played" coupled with the changes you have listed
sounds, to me at least, a lot like just fucking with things for no
good reason.
Since you seem eager to experiment though, what is your hypothesis
with regards to changing the players from 7 to 8, or any other
number?
j mac
Josh Moore
signed up to post. A lot of topics being thrown around
here... somebody asked about ownership - please contact me
through the website and tell me about yourself if this is
something you are interested in. I would like to keep the
business side and strategies of the league off the
discussion boards if possible. I do love the discussion on
the gameplay and find that valuable to hear feedback on how
to make the game more spectator friendly. Our field of play
will be wider and longer at 53 1/3 yards by 80 yards as
opposed to 40 by 70 typically played. That was one reason
to consider an 8th man, as current gameplans and strategies
would already need to be modified to accomodate that.
However, it is more likely we keep it 7 on 7 which provides
more spacing and a faster style of play with more room on
the field to maneuver.
lil kyle
> what about the idea af making backwards passes illegal
> to ensure
> no dump swinging and making "O's" come up with
> strategies that are
> more about attacking the goal.
Just like basketball!
and football!
and soccer!
and hockey!
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYtjpIwamos
jwk5145
but some of those sports do have rules similar to that and
others don't. Obviously none of those sports make backward
passes completely illegal, but basketball has a back-court
violation and a shot clock so that teams are forced to try
and score in a limited amount of time and space. Likewise,
one facet of hockey's offensive zone is it encourages teams
to keep the puck in an attacking area rather than taking the
puck back in the neutral zone and having to wait for
everyone to get onside for another scoring opportunity.
I don't see this as being that relevant to Ultimate, though,
as a team can't win a tied or one point game just by
maintaining possession of the disc; they eventually have to
score to seal the win. It could potentially make the game
more exciting to watch, but to suggest that dump-swing
ultimate never generates exciting plays or throws doesn't
make much sense to me.
mixnuts
definitely don't think it should be made illegal. I just
think that if the objective is to create "exciting" ultimate
full of plays that spectators will like, you'd want to
encourage floaty upfield throws (to an open field) rather
than disciplined dump-swing.
I guess playing with 8 would create more poach D's and 50:50
jump balls. But I think j mac's comment is right on the
money here. It makes no sense to change the fundamental
rules willy-nilly.
ulticriticRocks
Yes, the most important thing to change is who is enforcing
those rules.
Bulb
Right, because people care less about what they're doing
than they do about who's telling them how to do it.
enjoitheworld416
people is going to be hard enough without alienating your
fan base that has been playing ultimate already by messing
with the number of players/field dimensions. I don't see
what advantage comes from increasing the size of the field
and number of players. It would make sense to increase the
number of players/keep dimensions the same theoretically to
decrease space and make it harder to score, but I really
don't think a change is needed. Your gonna need all the fans
you can get, don't get away from the things that have earned
ultimate its loyal fans/players by creating unnecessary
gimmicks.
J Mac
> Our field of play will be wider and longer at 53 1/3
> yards by 80 yards as opposed to 40 by 70 typically played.
> That was one reason to consider an 8th man, as current
> gameplans and strategies would already need to be modified
> to accomodate that.
This just proves my point that you haven't played before.
Regardless of field size, a standard zone has a cup, two
wings, a short deep, and a deep deep (or whatever you want
to call the last two).
Reggie Fanelli
---whoa!
toad...that's the width of a football field!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> so with 7 guys there is gonna be more space thus more scoring. but
> mike, what about the idea af making backwards passes illegal to ensure
> no dump swinging and making "O's" come up with strategies that are
> more about attacking the goal. know that i'm just brainstorming here.
---well....some teams must like that Dean Smith 4 corners style of
offense....
personally i hate it.....but to make it illegal by rule seems a bit
out there....(kramer's finger wiggle from head to arm's length)
ulticritic
well, OF COURSE, when the guy telling them to do it is their OPPONENT
as well......duh
ulticritic
wrote:
are refs unnecessary gimicks too?
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
ulticritic
yea, one can come up with some "out there" stuff when one is
brainstorming......although i'm sure if ya brought some of the
original football players back from the 1800's theyde probaly find
alot of the new rules to be kinda "out there" too. so its all
relative.
paul
I think they are vital for a pro league. For the crowd to
give a shit enough to pay to watch, the games have to be
worth winning. Before you get all angry about how your
favorite tournament is worth winning, let me explain that
from a selling the game standpont.
We (players) will watch, because we love the damn game, and
we give a shit because it's cool to watch. But to make
money, non-players have to watch, (only 40k players out
there, remember?) and non-players don't give a crap about
how great the IO break was, or sportsmanship. they just
want to see their beloved team win. You think a rabid
raiders fan, say, would appreciate a QB kneeling the ball
because he saw an offensive hold last play? These kinds of
things shatter the illusion that the game is worth winning,
if people are willing to lose to call a foul on themselves
and preserve sportsmanship. In reality, the games are not
important, no game is, NBA/NFL/ultimate included. But, to
the uneducated spectators that bring cash, this illusion of
importance creates the drama that makes the game worth
watching.
The only exception to this is PED's, which are different,
for some reason. Bottom line is, I think that even if refs
aren't necessary due to the cleanliness of the future pro
players, they are needed just to make the spectacle
marketable. People need to believe that the players are
willing to do anything to win, and marketing a polite
version of three flies up certainly does not help that
illusion. Unless you want to sell the sportsmanship aspect,
like the WNBA.....
huckbucket
fans and some vibrant discussion in the pages discussion
boards.
Advancement of the sport is great, but this is awful. I just
hope that the people involved aren't actually real and this
is one big joke. This is an
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XFL.
also, as far as the dump swing and not passing backwards
thing goes, ultimate is one of the only sports that doesnt
allow move once you have possession, without dumping and
swinging it would be too easy to shut down a team and the
game wouldnt go anywhere.
~~huckbucket
Bulb
> also, as far as the dump swing and not passing backwards
> thing goes, ultimate is one of the only sports that doesnt
> allow move once you have possession, without dumping and
> swinging it would be too easy to shut down a team and the
> game wouldnt go anywhere.
Ok, I got it! No backwards passes, BUT, any player can run
with the disc as long as they don't make forward progress.
Sounds dumb but I bet it would be fun.
enjoitheworld416
they are not gimmicks.
Reggie Fanelli
> thing goes, ultimate is one of the only sports that doesnt
> allow move once you have possession, without dumping and
> swinging it would be too easy to shut down a team and the
> game wouldnt go anywhere.
---not positive about your conclusion....
and so that everyone knows...the dump pass isn't going anywhere.
NOW....someone mentioned 'over and back' at the midcourt stripe in
basketball....how it keeps a team from going backwards.
what if ultimate had 'over and back'?
once you pass midfield, you can't go back behind it....
take it to another level....each 'circled X' you pass....the 'over and
back' rule comes into effect.
SO....there are three over and backs in ultimate. defending brick,
midfield brick and attacking brick.
that'd be..........different.
Josh Moore
10:37]some of you might find the EUDL facebook page
enjoyable. 8 fans and some vibrant discussion in the pages
discussion boards.
Considering the page just formed in January and we have not
done any marketing yet to drive people to the page, I don't
see why not having a discussion on our FB page means
anything. It will all be up and running soon enough, but I
am amazed at how quick some people are to attack the league
and are rooting for it to fail. Let things play out and see
where we are at next year before you are quick to pass
judgement is all I ask. Our league will do nothing more
than to grow interest in the sport and drive more people to
want to play. I don't think anybody in the current ultimate
community should feel threatened by the league, but rather,
encouraged at more public awareness of the game and maybe
help drive some further growth. Just my opinion - I was
just surprised to see some of the negativity.
Bulb
be skeptical about this until they hear about it in person
from someone who actually plays. For instance, I am very
involved in Philadelphia area Ultimate, but I've never heard
anyone mention this league, even though your site says there
will be a Philadelphia team. Who have you talked to about a
team in Philadelphia?
J Mac
> [quote title=huckbucket wrote on Thu, 24 February 2011
> 10:37]some of you might find the EUDL facebook page
> enjoyable. 8 fans and some vibrant discussion in the pages
> discussion boards.
>
>
> Considering the page just formed in January and we have not
> done any marketing yet to drive people to the page, I don't
> see why not having a discussion on our FB page means
> anything. It will all be up and running soon enough, but I
> am amazed at how quick some people are to attack the league
> and are rooting for it to fail. Let things play out and see
> where we are at next year before you are quick to pass
> judgement is all I ask. Our league will do nothing more
> than to grow interest in the sport and drive more people to
> want to play. I don't think anybody in the current ultimate
> community should feel threatened by the league, but rather,
> encouraged at more public awareness of the game and maybe
> help drive some further growth. Just my opinion - I was
> just surprised to see some of the negativity.
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
I would be skeptical of any professional ultimate league, but
especially one that seems to cut so hard against the sport as it is
currently and doesn't appear to fully appreciate the game.
j mac
thefan
because you are new here. we are a bunch resistant to
change. we are inexplicably tied to certain aspects of the
game for reasons that don't make sense . . . to anyone.
Refs are attacked as encouraging cheating. comparisons to
other sports are considered an affront to our game which is
played on a somewhat higher plane than others. in the world
of many of the people who post on this forum and play this
game any move towards making the sport more competitive and/
or commercial is a move that will forever banish them from
ultimate fields the world over in shame.
you would do best to charge on with your venture, try to
make the game as fast and exciting as possible and see how
it pans out.
there are plenty of folks in this community who would gladly
help you along and give suggestions and guidance in
structuring the game play and management. but there are
just as many who just like to bitch and moan about whatever
is stuck in their panties at just that moment.
huckbucket
Frankly we need to get rid of this kind of person first (see
video at bottom)
http://skydmagazine.com/2011/02/monday-dumps-11/
When there are no more obnoxious costumes and frizbee
players, then there may be hope.
also, what the heck skyd magazine? I thought they were gonna
be doing rankings? and now they are promoting skirt
wearing.... I thought they had it right but i may be
mistaken
~~huckbucket
Bulb
> Frankly we need to get rid of this kind of person first
> (see video at bottom)
>
> http://skydmagazine.com/2011/02/monday-dumps-11/
You think we need to get rid of people who want world peace?
Smoothie
> that'd be..........different.
Hmmm. Interesting.
Smoothie
> just as many who just like to bitch and moan about whatever
> is stuck in their panties at just that moment.
Or...or...or, there might be plenty of people who would be in support
of certain efforts to professionalize/promote the sport, but don't
necessarily want to jump on board the first (or latest) effort to do
so, if that effort doesn't preserve various core characteristics of
the sport . (No Toad, not talking about refs, so save it.)
When did careful consideration of the specifics of an offer become a
bad thing?
huckbucket
saying that dressing up in costumes is part of the sport is
not great.
I can't express how embarrassing it is to see old men
wearing floral print skirts playing frisbee and calling it
ultimate.
Josh Moore
I appreciate your comments and that has been the general
feedback I have gotten from the community. Some are really
encouraged and excited, others are opposed. I think when
our ultimate product is on the field, I think most hardcore
ultimate players will recognize the game as aligned pretty
closely to how it is currently played. We are not looking
to make wild changes and do want to stick close to the core
of the game. I appreciate those who are willing to help
offer constructive feedback and understand those who have
different opinions.
Also, I understand some people are questioning the validity
of the league due to nobody knowing about it in the ultimate
community as of yet. That is a fair assessment at this
point, because we have not worked to take this to the public
yet. Our owners will launch their websites and get
everything else squared away this Summer and then we will
make the push to get the word out better. The only reason I
signed up for this website at this time was to address this
thread with my name and a lot of uncertainty around that.
Otherwise, I was originally planning on waiting until closer
to the Fall to reach out. Just wanted to clarify that, as
people keep mentioning lack of knowledge about the league as
a red flag.
Doc
Baer
> Just wanted to clarify that, as people keep mentioning
> lack of knowledge about the league as a red flag.
What about your lack of knowledge of Ultimate? Is that a red
flag?
Look, a lot of us care about the sport, and many of us want
to see it move forward into something bigger than it
currently is. If that is what you can do, then bravo. I
think most of us will be supportive.
But others have tried and failed to make a professional
product out of Ultimate and/or profit from it in the past.
Reaserch the NUA, MLU, Cultimate (and "C1"), and the history
of the UPA/USAU. The archives are all right here on RSD.
People with intimate knowledge of Ultimate, years of
experience in Ultimate, and deep connections in the sport
have struggled to make sweeping changes.
That's not to say it's impossible, and outsiders with vision
and knowledge are certainly welcome. But someone trying to
come into our sport with no knowledge of Ultimate and no
references is going to create doubt, if not outirght
rejection, by anyone with any sense.
If you are wasting your own money on it, that's one thing.
But if you are trying to get people to pay you to take part
of your ridiculous idea, it is offensive.
If you want to end the negativity, maybe you can introduce
yourself to the Ultimate community, share your knowledge and
vision, and explain the merits of your plans. You haven't
even shared your "Revenue Opportunities" yet. May I?
Or better yet, we can all just take bets to see what sees
the light of day first: the EUDL, Frank's motion offense
videos, or Kenny Dobyn's HOF induction.
ulticriticRocks
You watched the whole video? That's as impressive as The
Ulticritic watching the entire "Ultimate Nation" shows that
USAU puts out. Suffice to say, I didn't get to the skirt
wearing dudes, but what I did see was plenty embarrassing
for the sport.
mvuong
> Or better yet, we can all just take bets to see what
> sees the light of day first: the EUDL, Frank's motion
> offense videos, or Kenny Dobyn's HOF induction.
This might deserve it's own topic.
J Mac
Those old men in skirts are the guys that played the sport when it
started and got it as big as it is now. They can do whatever the hell
they want.
J Mac
>
> saying that dressing up in costumes is part of the sport is
> not great.
>
> I can't express how embarrassing it is to see old men
> wearing floral print skirts playing frisbee and calling it
> ultimate.
> --
paul
used to play against KD) who told me about one of his old
teams, chicks with dick. You either had to dress up as a
chick, or be named dick. I hope the game progresses toward
marketability, but I also hope a sense of humor will survive
in local/amateur ultimate.
Reggie Fanelli
~~~~~~~~~~~
---the fan,
would you be interested in observing at a UOA event?
we'd love to have you.
agerics20 at yahoo dot com
ulticriticRocks
> you know, I used to play with one of the old guys (so
> old he used to play against KD) who told me about one of
> his old teams, chicks with dick. You either had to dress
> up as a chick, or be named dick. I hope the game
> progresses toward marketability, but I also hope a sense
> of humor will survive in local/amateur ultimate.
Well if you don't mind marketing it as a joke then that's
perfect. There's ways to not take things too seriously
without mocking the game.
J Mac
Josh,
How much ultimate have you played?
J mac
Baer
Seriously.
Reggie Fanelli
--greg southfield?
Bulb
> There's ways to not take things too seriously without
> mocking the game.
Agreed. There are also ways to take things too seriously
that mock the game. These include (but are not limited
to):
-publicly complaining about other players for what they wear
during non-competitive play
-publicly criticizing a governing body for not doing
everything you want them to
-publicly insulting other players for not agreeing with you
These offenses are way worse than someone wearing a skirt
while playing Ultimate.
mvuong
> >
>
> ---not positive about your conclusion....
>
> and so that everyone knows...the dump pass isn't going
> anywhere.
>
> NOW....someone mentioned 'over and back' at the midcourt
> stripe in
> basketball....how it keeps a team from going backwards.
> what if ultimate had 'over and back'?
> once you pass midfield, you can't go back behind it....
>
> take it to another level....each 'circled X' you
> pass....the 'over and
> back' rule comes into effect.
> SO....there are three over and backs in ultimate.
> defending brick,
> midfield brick and attacking brick.
>
> that'd be..........different.
I think this is a really interesting idea that could warrant
some experimentation. It would make the offense be more
aware of their field position since a bad dump pass back
could result in a turn over.
Josh Moore
more of a recreational player - playing with friends, local
tournaments, yes, intramurals, pick up games, etc. I am not
interested in giving my "ultimate resume" because there are
going to be people who tear it down regardless of what I say
on here. I appreciate the sport from a spectator
standpoint. The majority of the people on this board are
light years better at playing that I ever was or will be,
and I truly enjoy watching the game played at its highest
level. I don't think you need to play at the highest level
to have success, however. Of the 27 coaches to have won a
super bowl, 18 of them never played a down in the NFL. True
success is attained from learning everything you can and
surrounding yourself with people who know more than you. I
never claimed to be the most knowledgeable person out there
about the sport of ultimate and welcome constructive
feedback. I'm sure every sentence will be critiqued by
those who want to discredit me.
Reggie Fanelli
> during non-competitive play
> -publicly criticizing a governing body for not doing
> everything you want them to
> -publicly insulting other players for not agreeing with you
>
> These offenses are way worse than someone wearing a skirt
> while playing Ultimate.
---bzzt.
wrong.
Reggie Fanelli
---you should PUT THIS on your ultimate resume'!
Josh Moore, i don't know if you're real...or for real....but these
asshole haters on rsd are gonna hate and be assholes.
folks have tried to start pro leagues....and folks are always gonna
hate on it or wish you ill will.
do watcha like and good luck with it!
you may fail.....and these jokers will pat themselves on the back.
or you may succeed to some degree....and they'll await the failure
from you or someone else.
best of luck with whatever you're working on...
Reggie Fanelli
> those who want to discredit me.
---yeah...these guys on rsd a bunch of dumbassed dipshits...
Corley
make the game more offense-friendly and fast-paced. No
dumps? No plays back beyond halfway?
One assumption that's been unchallenged so far is that rules
like this would make the game more exciting and offensive. I
think that's unlikely. If that rule were made tomorrow and I
were a club captain, I'd immediately call my whole d-line.
The first thing we'd do (in a no-dump world) is completely
stop defending handlers honestly. We'd stand five yards
upfield on the force side and watch as thrower after thrower
panicked and ripped hucks.
If it were just the 'no throw-backs' rule, I'd be planning
the traps to put on when a team managed to throw it just a
yard or two beyond the brick. Imagine trying to break a zone
without dumps. Maybe offenses would adapt as well by sending
more guys downfield. But there isn't really that much room
left downfield. Where would we end up? A panicked thrower
ripping hucks.
What's strange to me is that I think the people who are
intrigued by these rule changes have come to the same
conclusions I have about their likely outcomes. It's just
that those people think 'panicked throwers ripping hucks' is
a good thing.
Full disclosure: I come from a frisbee culture (Carleton
College, and GoP more specifically) where in most of the
games that mattered our opponents were larger, faster, and
could jump higher than we could. Winning at frisbee was a
question of technique. If it came down to panicked hucks we
were screwed. So I have a personal antipathy to the sport in
which that happens more often.
The real assumption, though, seems to be not that ultimate
players would enjoy that game more, but rather that
spectators would enjoy that game more. More leaping! More
sprinting frantically! More skying bitches! It's true that
the athletic elegance inspired by the panicked huck is not
common in other sports; it's one of our big selling points.
But people don't just care about sports for athleticism. If
they did, we'd care about Track and Field more often than
every four years. They care about sports because minds are
operating, because you can have a college finals like
Carleton-Florida where the two teams are playing different
games which happen to have the same rules. Banning dumps, to
me, feels like legislating the game in the direction of
brutality.
One thing you notice about sports that are truly successful
is that they have a relatively small number of rules: a
number of players, a field, an object of play, and an
objective. Soccer, Basketball, Tennis, Golf, and Ultimate
have this in common. Most everything else is left up to the
participants.
Here are three observations about sports with arcane rules.
1. Contact-based sports have arcane rules. Pro Football is a
sport about touching. For that reason it has an incredibly
arcane book of rules detailing exactly what kind of touching
is allowed and when. Rugby, also.
2. Iterative sports have arcane rules. That is to say that
sports depending on specific gameplay events have very
specific rules. Billiards. But also pro football and
baseball. Those events have to be very carefully monitored.
Freeform sports (like ultimate) tend to have a low number of
intuitive rules.
3. Arcane rules are the residue of dominant strategies. When
a low-contact or non-contact sport has an arcane rule, it is
probably because at some point in the past a team was able
to transgress against an unspoken expectation of the
intuitive rules to gain an advantage. A winning basketball
team was able to hold the ball forever. A big man was able
to stand in the paint FOREVER. Offsides, though it has
different origins, still exists to prevent a dominant and
dickish strategy.
4. Sports with arcane rules struggle to have global appeal.
Pro Football. Baseball, Cricket and their cousins (with
cricket an exception) are all pretty much bound to the
regions of the world they got their start in. Soccer is
making inroads all over the place, as is basketball. As is
ultimate. A big part of this is it's simplicity: 'Throw
this. Don't run with it. Pass it to a guy standing over
there. If you drop it it's their turn.'
One more thing: liberalizations of sports, ways to turn
things more exciting, often come down not to banning things
but to legalizing them. The forward pass is a good example,
as is, in soccer, the continuing 'liberalization' of the
offside rule. Instead of asking ourselves 'what can we make
illegal?' we should probably asking 'what can we legalize?'
Or we could just conclude that the gameplay of ultimate
frisbee is not the problem.
ulticritic
>
> 4. Sports with arcane rules struggle to have global appeal.
thats why i say pad up and make it full contact........who gives a
fuck about global appeal.......this is america......we have the
greatrest sports fans and athletes in the world
============================
>
> One more thing: liberalizations of sports, ways to turn
> things more exciting, often come down not to banning things
> but to legalizing them.
then why dosent soccer legalize offsides.....or at least offer more
space on fast breaks. just hink how much better the game would be.
----------------------------------------
The forward pass is a good example,
> as is, in soccer, the continuing 'liberalization' of the
> offside rule. Instead of asking ourselves 'what can we make
> illegal?' we should probably asking 'what can we legalize?'
how about refs?
--------------------------------
>
> Or we could just conclude that the gameplay of ultimate
> frisbee is not the problem.
well it isnt really.....its more of how its rules are enforced and the
basic game is managed that is.........that spread O is GREAT to watch
if youve got amnesia though
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
lil kyle
> or at least offer more
> space on fast breaks.
What do you mean?
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYtjpIwamos
Bulb
> > 4. Sports with arcane rules struggle to have global
> > appeal.
>
> thats why i say pad up and make it full
> contact........who gives a fuck about global
> appeal.......this is america......we have the greatrest
> sports fans and athletes in the world
Whether or not we have the greatest fans and athletes, a
world championship still sounds more prestigious than a
national championship.
ulticritic
> ulticritic wrote on Fri, 25 February 2011 22:51
>
> > or at least offer more
> > space on fast breaks.
>
> What do you mean?
allow players to go offsides more liberally......and adjust the
verbage of the rule to say so.......like maybe a 5 yard buffer......or
allow recievers to start going offsides onec the ball is contacted by
the passer......not wait till the ball crosses that "plane"
it just sucks to see play stop when there is an awsome downfield pass
to an open sprinter (which is often due to the defensive player
tactically steppin forward to MAKE the opponent offsides). the fast
break/one on one dynamic, that is possibly the most exciting aspect of
the game, is killed. just think if football had a similar
rule.......or basketball.......it would suck
ulticritic
well, we call the nfl and nbe champs "world champs"......so i dont see
why we cant do the same for ultimate. also, i'd bet if ya asked
around to some of the elite clubbers theyde tell ya in a heartbeat
that the usau national championship is more coveted than a world
championship. and i'd bet the same would hold true for all nba
players to.....in that theyde rather have an nba tittle than even a
olymipic gold medal.
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Mozaic
RSD?
From a Who is search of the website the-eudl.com, the
registrant is "Andrew Haines". There was also a reference to
Conquest creative (www.conquest-creative.com)
At Conquest creative, it lists a few past and current
clients. One of those clients is "Andrew Haines (Elect
Andrew Haines State Representative)".
From that information, google is your friend. And then these
pages can be found:
http://www.andrewhaines.com/
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Andrew-Haines/126748691013
The interesting part is the bio which talks about his
business experience
"After graduating from High School he entered corporate
America. At 19 years old Andrew started his first business.
Andrew is an entrepreneur who started Biz Sellers in 2001
and since then has started and then sold over three dozen
businesses and helped to create over 700 jobs. These jobs
have had a multi-million dollar impact in the communities
where those businesses were created.
Andrew is also a sports nut at heart having taken that
passion and moved it into the world of minor league sports.
Andrew founded several minor league professional sports
leagues and teams."
So with that last part in mind, I reverted back to the
conquest creative site the past sporting clients include:
- Global Professional Basketball League
- Global Professional Basketball League 2
- Ultimate Indoor Football League
- Professional Arena Soccer League
- Shooter AAA (Amatuer Ice Hockey Organization)
So next stop was googling / wikipedia those sports to see
what sort of history is behind these sports.
GPBL
- It appears this never got off the ground, with all teams
being moved to GPBL 2. There was a webblog found that seemed
to be used before it folded (pre-startup). On there, it
appears Mr Haines forms part of the management group
GPBL2
Per Wikipedia, inaugural season was supposed to be April
2010. No other information really visible, as it looks like
it hasnt started. ALthough apparently, there are 4 teams
signed up.
UIFL
Per Wikipedia, inaugural season started Feb 18, 2011. League
founders Michael Taylor and Andrew Haines; Haines was also
the owner and founder of the Atlantic/American Indoor
Football League and the Mid-Atlantic Hockey League (two more
sports to research and see past history). Under the wiki
page for American Indoor Football Association it has the
following
"The league has its roots in the Atlantic Indoor Football
League, which began play in 2005 under the leadership of
Andrew Haines. The league (originally proposed under the
name "United States Indoor Football League" in 2004) began
with six teams, all of them based in the eastern United
States. Two teams played all of their games on the road, and
the regular season was cut short two weeks because of teams
being unable to secure venues for playoff games. In the
2005-06 offseason, the league changed its name to the
American Indoor Football League, while nine expansion teams
entered the league and a tenth (the Rome Renegades) joined
from the National Indoor Football League.
The 2006 season was marred by the folding of two teams, and
the league used semi-pro teams to fill scheduling vacancies.
The league was briefly acquired by Greens Worldwide, Inc.,
the owners of the amateur North American Football League,
during the 2006 season, but they terminated the contract
soon afterwards. Nine teams left the league after the
season, including four who split off to create the
short-lived World Indoor Football League. On October 2,
2006, a massive reorganization took place as Morris and Mink
set up a new league, which absorbed all of the remaining
AIFL franchises, and Haines was ousted. (Haines would go on
to create the Mid-Atlantic Hockey League in 2007, before
similar stability problems led to the forced divestiture of
that league as well. Haines would, in April 2010, announce
he was relaunching his league as the Ultimate Indoor
Football League beginning in 2011 and revived two defunct
former AIFL teams.) The league took on its current name at
the same time."
PASL
Wiki says it was an offshoot of the Premier Arena Soccer
League. Started in October 08, so two seasons so far. Seems
to have 12 teams (4 have folded within 2 seasons), but no
information about who started it or who ran it. Only
information I can find is in relation to scores.
Shooter AAA
Cant find any information
Mid Atlantic Hockey League
A semi pro league started up by Andrew Haines
It was then sold but the new owner went back on the contract
as apparently the league wasn't in the condition it was
apparently claimed to be.
I found this article below talking about the formation of a
new league following the failure of the MAHL. Definitely a
must read.
http://www.prohockeynews.com/hockey/publish/mahl/Disappointment_drives_creation_of_AAHA.shtml
So, in short, it appears that people linked to the EUDL
(Andrew Haines) have had some experience setting up
professional sports leagues. However, it doesnt appear that
they were involved in successful sports leagues.
Please be wary if you intend to invest your own money in a
"franchise". It looks like most franchises that have started
up under one of their leagues folds within a very short time
frame (if it ever starts). Do some research. This was no
more than 30 minutes on google and wikipedia, yet it would
already have me worried.
Josh Moore
consultant to build our logo, website and paperwork
agreements based on my specifications to get started. He is
not involved at all in the ownership, operations, or
direction of the EUDL. His experience with start up leagues
helped because he had a lot of the paperwork items already
developed to piggyback from. Otherwise, he is not involved
in our league in any capacity, if his previous success is a
concern to any.
He is a good guy though, he owns the Canton Cougars who
played their first game this past week in the UIFL.
Hopefully he can find some success with that league.
ulticriticRocks
In the world of business ventures professional sports have a
lower % success rate than restaurants. Did you google the %
of pro sports leagues that lasted more than 2 years. I'm
guessing this guy is right on par.
ulticritic
and just think about all the pro football/basketball/baseball leages
that failed prior to the "taking".....so, as per the haters, not only
should there be NO SPORTS LEAGUES.......but also no restaraunts. i
guess i did my part by failing twice at creating a "pro" level
ultimate league becaues eventually its gonna take. what i dont get is
why people are so negitive when someone wants to actually HELP
ultimate grow, mature, get exposed and marketed. seems like there is
some kind of hoarding mentality going on and/or that IF there is gonna
be any kinda pro league its got to meet everybodies approval
first.......and by everybody i mean usau and their
loyalists........cause i'm sure EVERYONE ELSE would be very supportive
and encouraging of the efforts josh moore is making for this sport,
right?
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mozaic
buyer beware statement.
I am all for growing ultimate as a sport. But doing
something like this the wrong way, could set ultimate back a
long way.
The people behind the EUDL have minimal experience in
setting up successful leagues. They have even less
experience playing and running high level ultimate
tournaments / games.
They have avoided engaging anyone from established ultimate
organisations who could give them solid advice.
Yet they are asking for people to purchase franchises in
this new profiessional league.
If you are tempted to invest your own funds into it, good
luck. I am simply saying do some detailed research,
understand their business plan, expect any investment to be
lost. Know who you are jumping into bed with before you do
it.
Isaac Saul
>
> They have avoided engaging anyone from established ultimate
> organisations who could give them solid advice.
>
Good god, did you read his post? He specifically said that he wasn't
planning on letting this thing loose until the summer, but then saw
that he was being spoken about on this thread. It's SO suspicious that
he didn't tell anyone...are you kidding?
Why is it that when one of the few people who actually gets out there
and does something for ultimate that everyone has to get on their
shit? All anyone ever talks about in the ultimate community is how
'sick' it would be for a pro league to happen. Then when people do,
they bitch. Fail or succeed, they still got up and tried. The fact
that the MLU and all of those other leagues HAVE failed should only
encourage you that maybe people will keep learning and keep getting
closer until they get it right.
Baer: You said that he can't do it because so many more people who
were on the "inside" of the ultimate community failed in trying. Did
you ever think there is a correlation there? Maybe the people who have
such strong ties to ultimate's grassroots have less success getting it
off the ground because their business sense isn't there? Ever consider
that since they failed, we should - I don't know - change the way we
try?
This guy seems like a really honest dude, who unlike most people on
this thread has addressed every accusation being made about him pretty
promptly, and is actually trying to put forward a real product. I
contacted him privately about inquiring for ownership and he was
informative, nice, opportunistic professional and honest. So why
should I judge? Because he only played rec league? Because I don't
know him? Because other people failed? Because he went to someone who
knew more than he did to help start his website?
And yeah, laugh all you want at him and Mike G getting in contact with
each other. But here's an idea - he gets what is probably the most
progressive and professional observer crew to join his league and now
he has BOTH access to Mike G's market and a set of officials. That is
some forward thinking. And around here, it's the best thing he could
do.
On that same note, he could just as easily inquire with the right
people in the ultimate community and acquire all the info he needs
than come on here and argue with you guys, but so far he's done it
anyway. There is something to be said for that. As a community and a
blog we should embrace it and try to push him forward, offer advice if
your not comfortable or trusting of ownership, contact him and tell
him you live in Philly and would be interested in playing for one of
the Philly teams when ownership is solidified, those are the things we
should do. If you're anything like me, someone who is trying to see
the sport legitimize, give it more exposure, and open an opportunity
to actually get PAID to play or coach somewhere down the line, is a
person you should thank rather than try to cut down from your computer
the first chance you get.
Bagbo Bilbins
spectator-friendly, marketable form of frisbee that doesn't
drastically change the way the game is played is doing a
good thing.
Mozaic
> This guy seems like a really honest dude, who unlike
> most people on
> this thread has addressed every accusation being made
> about him pretty
> promptly
Sorry for taking this point out of your entire comment, but
i do not consider this as a good indicator. Nor a bad
indicator. Its actually meaningless. see www.419eater.com
Note, I am definitely not linking the 419 scams to the EUDL.
This is simply a response to the thought that prompt
response means its kosher. All scams try and keep your
confidence. As do legitimate investment schemes. There is no
way to tell the difference without proper independent
research
Mozaic
"So I set up the EUDL and have been marketing to find owners
for teams. This thread came back to life when somebody I
contacted in the Baltimore area found this thread, so I felt
that since this was still floating on the Internet for
eternity, it be best to explain. The EUDL will launch its
inaugural season in 2012, and we will look to reach out to
the ultimate community much more as we approach that time."
So he set up a league, is looking for investors to buy
franchises, and then he will speak to people in the ultimate
community after that.
My concerns are in that timeline. Take money first. Then
engage people who know what they are talking about.
Anytime I am advising on a business venture, the business
plan and research into the industry is first. You don't take
investor money before the indepth and solid research. Maybe
it is buried in a business plan somewhere.
I am simply advising that anyone investing check out the
business plan, checks the assumptions behind any numbers,
checks out the research behind the business plan from
independant sources, and then do a gut check before
investing money.
Or don't. In which case, anyone who is willing to invest
without such research, please contact me. I have a bridge in
San Fransisco available for sale.
Reggie Fanelli
> each other. But here's an idea - he gets what is probably the most
> progressive and professional observer crew to join his league and now
> he has BOTH access to Mike G's market and a set of officials. That is
> some forward thinking. And around here, it's the best thing he could
> do.
---and after this weekend in Wilmington....officiating ultimate
stepped into a whole new era.
ulticritic
> . All scams try and keep your
> confidence.
usau sure does......what kind of annual budget are they working with
presently