AUDL to the West?

[Greg Wakeman]

I realize I'm not the first person to question why there are
no teams on the West Coast, but hear me out. I understand
that because of travel costs, you can't have CT travel to
Seattle to play a game. However, why not have the league
function like the MLB and have two separate "Leagues" with
one in the East and one in the West. Have East teams
exclusively play East teams during the regular season
(travel cost would therefore be exactly the same as they are
now), and West teams only play West teams. Have a regular 4
or 8 team playoff (depending on how many teams in the
league), and the winner of each league plays a game for the
championship. It seems like by eliminating the HUGE ultimate
hubs on the West coast, the AUDL is losing out on quite a
bit of potential financing, and it appears that if you
finagled it correctly, you could keep travel costs similar
to what they are now. Your thoughts?
--
Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com

[J]

I think they should put a franchise in your beard.

[Not Ultimate]

The current plan is to expand to west coast in 2014.

[CJ Millisock]

2013 Expansion Teams
Madison
Chicago
Minneapolis
New York
Boston
New Jersey
Washington DC
Toronto

2014 Expansion Teams
Vancouver
Seattle
Missoula
Spokane
Portland
Eugene
Tri Cities (Kennewick, Richland, Pasco)
Boise
San Francisco
Salt Lake City
San Jose
Denver
Las Vegas
Los Angeles
San Diego
Phoenix
Dallas
Austin
Oklahoma City
Houston
New Orleans
Shreveport
Little Rock
Memphis
Raleigh
Charlotte
Columbia
Knoxville
Atlanta
Birmingham
Jacksonville
Orlando

Source:
http://goo.gl/maps/dCcO

[Aiden Forsi]

/thread

[yardyoder]

That's almost 50 teams? Show me a legitimate american
professional sports league with 50 teams...

[JB]

I hope all those folks in Birmingham, Knoxville and
Shreveport who are clamoring to watch mediocre ultimate can
stand to wait another year!

Who are they going to sucker into buying those teams? This
is starting to smell like a scam.

[california_encounter]

I agree. its beginning to seem more and more like there is
no AUDL business plan. Just a josh moore plan to make as
much money from selling franchises then bounce.

[Nathan Van Ymeren]

On 2012-07-08, JB <johndbo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I hope all those folks in Birmingham, Knoxville and
> Shreveport who are clamoring to watch mediocre ultimate can
> stand to wait another year!
>
> Who are they going to sucker into buying those teams? This
> is starting to smell like a scam.

Yep. All that these expansion teams are going to accomplish is the
dilution of the talent pool.

[Titus Tradewell]

Recent events would indicate that the level of forethought
is not exactly exemplary. It is worth noting that of the big
list, far less have franchises SOLD. The list of cities with
"actual" teams looks like this:

2013 Expansion Teams
Madison (Radicals)
Chicago (Windy City Wildfire)
Minneapolis (Be hard to beat Sub Zero)

New York
Boston
New Jersey
Washington DC

Toronto (Rush)

2014 Expansion Teams
Vancouver
Seattle

Portland

San Francisco
Salt Lake City
San Jose
Denver
Las Vegas

Austin
Charlotte
Jacksonville (Cannons)
Orlando

22 teams by 2014 seems more reasonable, in the loosest sense
of the word. With the exception of Charlotte and Las Vegas,
each city seems like they would have a decent shot and
succeeding. I predict Seattle and Boston to be immediate
powerhouses. I would hesitate to put more than one team in
each state to start due to talent dilution, but I'm not the
one suing my founding owners.

Completely Baseless Predictions:

Succeed: NY, Boston, Seattle
Fail: Charlotte, Las Vegas, Jersey, Salt Lake City
50/50: Minneapolis (Surly sponsorship?), San Jose, Orlando
(but only because Jacksonville has a sweet logo)

[Not Ultimate]

Someone previously mentioned that those are simply expansion
areas that they are exploring, not necessarily expansion
teams that they want to happen. Whether that is the case or
not, there are a number of cities that I don't think will
ever have AUDL teams. I can't imagine an Idaho or Montana
franchise being able to compete anywhere near the level that
a Seattle franchise will. I wouldn't be surprised if a
number of these locations are dropped.

[Baer]

Binky wrote on Sun, 08 July 2012 09:26

> Who are they going to sucker into buying those teams?
> This is starting to smell like a scam.

Starting?


california_encounter wrote on Sun, 08 July 2012 13:29

> I agree. its beginning to seem more and more like there
> is no AUDL business plan. Just a josh moore plan to make
> as much money from selling franchises then bounce.

Beginning to seem?



These discussions have been going on for a couple of years
now. The original business plan has horribly written and
full of obvious holes. Even though the rise of the AUDL has
made a big impact in the sport in a short time we have seen
some awesome things, the AUDL was never about improving the
sport. It was about money. For Josh Moore.

Moore has no background in Ultimate. He is not a fan of
Ultimate. The original owners of the first franchises had no
background or even knowledge of Ultimate. The only money to
ever be made was in selling franchises to naive owners who
didn't know any better or understand what they were getting
into.

The good things we have seen out of AUDL play (and there
have admittedly been plenty) are simply byproducts of this
flawed business venture.

[davidvatz]

Baer wrote on Mon, 09 July 2012 09:34

> It was about money. For Josh Moore.

To be fair, even if it was all about money for Josh Moore,
assuming he sold all of the franchises from this year at
$2,500 each ($20k) and the eight new ones for next year at
$10k each ($80k), that's only $100k in revenue over two
years....50k per year....and that's before factoring in any
other expenses from operating the league...such as legal
bills ;)

So I don't think Josh Moore is exactly getting rich off of
the venture at this point.

[DJ]

Baer wrote on Mon, 09 July 2012 09:34

> The good things we have seen out of AUDL play (and there
> have admittedly been plenty) are simply byproducts of this
> flawed business venture.

Anything good from the AUDL is a result of hard work from
dedicated owners and players. Don't downplay the successes
of these owners who ran a league with little help from
Moore.

[Baer]

DJ wrote on Mon, 09 July 2012 08:49

> Anything good from the AUDL is a result of hard work
> from dedicated owners and players. Don't downplay the
> successes of these owners who ran a league with little
> help from Moore.

That's a good point. The people involved certainly have
worked hard, and the product has been pretty good. My
criticism from the beginning has been aimed at the business
model. However, I hope that the players have (or had) great
experiences out of this and think the sport can benefit from
the AUDL's existence.

[Steve Loomis]

I'm trying to wrap my brain around an ultimate fan on the
west coast who looks enviously at what we've got here in
AUDL country.

Look, you get to watch Revolver play Sockeye for free. We
get to pay twelve bucks a head to watch Kentucky play
Indianapolis. The grass over here is most assuredly not
greener.

(Yes, I know, I know. We get to see Brodie. You're not
missing much, he's sort of a turn factory.)
--
Steve Actual Loomis

Don't fake the funk

[Not Ultimate]

I don't think you're making a useful comparison. You're
coupling AUDL vs USAU with Kentucky vs Seattle (or Kentucky
vs Bay Area). I think the question you want to be asking
is, "How is the experience for an ultimate fan in Kentucky
before and after the introduction of the AUDL?" Maybe in
the future we will be able to ask the same question about
Seattle/Bay-area.

You say you are trying to understand why someone on the west
coast would look enviously at Kentucky. I feel pretty
confident that no one in Seattle is envious of the ultimate
scene in Kentucky. However there are at least some people
that are interested in trying out the AUDL experience in
Seattle/Bay-area.

[mjevan...@comcast.net]

ultimate is not a name wrote on Tue, 10 July 2012 20:32

Well said...

--

Mark
Head Referee
RI Rampage
http://rirampage.com

[Steve Loomis]

Well, having experienced ultimate in Kentucky pre and post
AUDL, let me give you a report from the trenches: It's like
ultimate, but with buying tickets.

Other than Brodie Smith, I'm not aware of any superstar
ultimate players relocating to play in the AUDL. That's
means it's the same guys who were here last year, the same
guys who I'd be seeing play at tournaments if the AUDL had
never happened. But now it costs me twelve bucks to see a
game. I've watched LouEVIL play MadCow a dozen times over
the years. Now I've seen the Bluegrass Revolution play the
Columbus Cranes, and I can tell you, the experiences are
just about identical. The main difference, from a fan
perspective, is that you're further away, and the crowd is
only 50% ultimate players instead of 95% ultimate players.
And you can do the math, I'm sure, but just to be clear,
that means the rest of the crowd is 50% parents of players
instead of 5% parents of players.

(also, you might not be drunk)

This only speaks to the fan experience. Obviously, it
offers some advantages to the player. I haven't played in
the AUDL, so I can't speak to that aspect. I gather that
almost all of them are "paid" in jerseys and free van rides
to the games. Granted, that's a season of not draining
their wallets for the costs of travel and lodging, which can
add up.

But in terms of the "product", they've delivered essentially
no functional differences from good old free 2011 ultimate
as far as I can tell. The last two live streams of ultimate
that I've watched were an AUDL game, and the Bravo/Chain
game at the (very poorly named) U.S. Open Championships, and
I assure you, the "pros" ain't got shit on national caliber
"amateur" ultimate.

--
Steve Actual Loomis

Don't fake the funk

[Cris Shaikh]

Steve, a couple of tangible differences for the fans:
Being in a stadium is fun
Having an announcer is fun
I really like having Refs. I think it makes for a faster
paced game. Interminable call-discussions are as annoying as
anything in the sport.

A couple of tangible differences for the players:
I know players really appreciate the free uniforms, travel,
accommodations, professional trainers.
Often the owners take the team out for drinks/meals after.
As you say, a season of those expenses really adds up.
While obviously the top Elite teams are playing at a higher
level, being a "professional player" really has meaning for
people.

[DJ]

Steve Loomis wrote on Wed, 11 July 2012 09:30

> But in terms of the "product", they've delivered
> essentially no functional differences from good old free
> 2011 ultimate as far as I can tell.

My wife finds AUDL vastly superior to watch versus USAU
ultimate.

Things they like:
- The game moves faster. Less time between points, no
arguments about contested calls.
- Stadiums: You can actually see the field and you don't
have player's bodies in the way
- It's only one game. A two day tournament is just too much
ultimate for any spectator. The physical size of tournaments
is also intimidating for the general fan.

She dislikes announcers and the cheesy music played at the
stadium, but it's unlikely the AUDL will blast Ellis Paul
between points.

Revolver vs Ironside is a higher level of play than CT vs
Philly, but more people will go see CT vs Philly in a single
game format than come to check out the former at a
tournament.

[Steve Loomis]

Well, I'll say nothing on the topic of referees vis a vis
game speed. That one's been beaten to death.

The stadiums are sort of cool. Not twelve-bucks-a-head
cool. It gives you a different view, which is sometimes
better, but also not nearly as exciting as being up close.
And frankly, skying is a hell of a lot more impressive when
you're looking up at it, rather than down from the stands.
Given the choice between courtside seats and row 20 seats, I
personally would take courtside every time. Also, have you
seen pictures or video of the games in Detroit? They play
in the Silverdome, and it's just bizarre. The place is
filled to a third of one percent of capacity.

The one game thing is a strange "improvement" to me. If
five games is too many, just leave when you want to leave.

I guess I think if the stands are 50% full of players
families, and what they get out of that is free jerseys and
van rides, maybe it would have been more direct for the
players to just ask their moms to buy their jerseys and lend
them the minivan.

--
Steve Actual Loomis

Don't fake the funk