WPBA, NYC - Response to Lipsky's Recent Comments on Women Players
Chris Aldridge
From--- Chris Aldridge, Proprietor-Country Retreat Family Billiards,
Boone, NC
As an avid player and follower of both the men's and women's
pro billiard tours, I very much enjoy reading the posts on the
Rec.Sport.Billiard newsgroup. I would like to respond to
comments by Steve Lipsky in his coverage of the women's recent
tournament in NYC. First, of course, I'd like to thank Steve for
giving us such timely and complete coverage. But, I also have
the following to say in response to his rather critical comments
on the general level of play.
Steve reported that Allison suffered "a complete mental,
emotional and physical breakdown as the set wore on" in her
finals match against Vivian. As a friend of Allison's, I do not
think this happened. Allison is a true professional and
World Champion in every way and is always just as gracious in
defeat as she is in winning, although as all great champions she
hates to lose. I talked to a few people who witnessed the finals
and they said that Allison indeed kept her cool despite having
absolutely nothing go her way in the match. In the past few years
this is something the other women players have rarely been able to
do to Allison, as she usually controls and dominates the match.
To take nothing away from Vivian who I'm sure played great, I heard
that Vivian got every possible good roll even when she missed.
As the greatest woman player in the history of the game, I guess
everyone expects Allison to win every match and every tournament
she plays in. We must remember we're talking about 9-Ball which
has a significant element of luck compared to a game like
straight pool, which makes the fact that Allison has won
nearly 2 out of every 3 tournaments she has played in over the
last three years even more impressive! There has been a lot of
talk about how much better the men pros are than the women; I agree
with this with the exception of Allison who I think would compete
well with the men right now if she wanted to. The scary
thing is that Allison has only been playing 9-Ball for
3 years and she's still learning and improving at a much more
rapid pace; faster and further than many that have been
playing 8 or 10 years.
During the next year I hope to arrange a Challange Match here at
Country Retreat Family Billiards (CRFB) between Allison
and Johnny Archer. I am confident that Allison will do just fine.
I'm tired of hearing everyone talk about the weakness of
Allison's break. She hits the balls solidly, usually makes a ball,
has better than average cueball control, and runs out from the
break more than any other woman player on the tour.
Steve, I welcome your response to this post/mail. I know you admire
and respect the women players or you would not have attended the
tournament. I appreciate your passing on the results even though
I cannot agree with many of your peripheral comments!
Allison Fisher and Gerda Hofstatter will be playing here at CRFB,
Boone, NC on Saturday, August 29th. From 1 to 6 PM.
Both players will be playing race to 2 Challenge Matches against
customers with anyone beating the pros winning a prize and a
gift certificate. At 8PM Allison and Gerda will be playing
a 9-Ball Grudge Match, race to 7, 2 out of 3 sets. They'll
both be available for autographs and photos. There is no cover
charge.
Also, on the weekend of October 3-4, we will be hosting the
WPBA-sanctioned NC Women's 9-BALL Open Championship here.
Allison and Gerda will be here as well as many other
highly rated female players from this region. It will be
open to all amateur and pro female players.
Call us at 828-963-6260 if you'd like more information
about either of these events.
Chris
/s/ Chris Aldridge, Proprietor, CRFB
Mary Olson
Chris Aldridge wrote in message <35D68C53...@m-y.net>...
>To: Rec.Sport.Billiard Newsgroup & and Steve Lipsky;
>
>emotional and physical breakdown as the set wore on" in her
>finals match against Vivian. As a friend of Allison's, I do not
>think this happened. Allison is a true professional and
>World Champion in every way and is always just as gracious in
>defeat as she is in winning, although as all great champions she
>hates to lose. I talked to a few people who witnessed the finals
>and they said that Allison indeed kept her cool despite having
>absolutely nothing go her way in the match.
Our ace reporter Steve did not say that Allison did not keep her cool. I
believe he implied that she had a breakdown in her game, not her
sportsmanship.
>In the past few years this is something the other women players have rarely
been able to
>do to Allison, as she usually controls and dominates the match.
So are you are saying that the majority of players do not 'keep their cool'
and do not conduct themselves as 'true professionals' when losing to
Allison?
I agree that she is a phenomenal player. I also agree that she shows a
great deal of professionalism before, during and after a match. However,
the fact that she lost a match is just that; she lost a match because
another player played better. I don't believe that you can get beat by a
score of 11-3 because of your opponents 'good rolls'. As Steve said in his
WPBA recap 'While Vivian got a few lucky rolls, a few lucky rolls does not a
drubbing make. She took advantage of almost every opportunity she was
given, and broke-and-ran more than a few racks.'
Let's not overlook the fact that Steve also pointed out that Allison
'destroyed' Vivian in the winner's bracket finals. I think you may be doing
a little selective reading/interpreting.
I appreciated Steve's updates, found them interesting and insightful, and
thought they were unbiased and fair.
Steve, send me the $5.00 you now owe me.
Mary
p.s. I spent most of the morning on the 5th tee box at the PGA Championship
here in Redmond. Golf is my second favorite sport. What a thrill to see
this guys hit the ball. Wish there was as much security for Johnny Archer
as there is for Tiger Woods...
hous...@azbilliards.com
wrote:
>As the greatest woman player in the history of the game, I guess
>everyone expects Allison to win every match and every tournament
>she plays in.
I count myself amongst Allison's many fans, but I think calling her
'The Greatest Woman Player In The History Of The Game' is a gross
exaggeration. In her heyday, Jean Balukas owned the woman's tour.
I firmly believe Allison to be one of the 20 best woman's players of
all time and the best woman playing right now, but she has a ways to
go to be the best ever.
Mike Howerton
Webmaster
www.azbilliards.com
Bridget
I learned to play pool in 1990, and played tournaments (only one pro
event, 1993, in which my nerves overcame my game and I played horribly)
from 1991-1995. With some time off since then, I still do get chances to
play periodically. I've watched every current big-name women's player (and
the vast majority of the male players as well). Throughout it all, Jean
Balukas's name has been resonating in my ear - "No woman on the tour could
come close to Jean's game," or, "Jean would be playing with the men and
drilling them if she came back to competition."
I went through a skeptical stage, but have grown more intensely curious
than skeptical as time has gone by. I would drive a fair distance to see
Jean play. I came to the sport too late, and I've missed out on
witnessing this fabled player. Jean, come back! A whole young generation
is waiting for you!
-Bridget
Joseph D. Sender wrote:
> In article <35D68C53...@m-y.net>, ni...@m-y.net wrote:
>
> >Steve reported that Allison suffered "a complete mental,
> >emotional and physical breakdown as the set wore on" in her
> >finals match against Vivian.
>
> Shit happens...
>
> I think it is ironic that Jean Balukus was at the tournament. In all the
> years I've watched Jean play, I never saw her break down. The finals is
> where Jean twisted the knife. Consistently.
>
> Allison vs Jean? I don't think so. No comparison, if you ask me.
>
> Jean, if you are listening I want you to know that the woman's field
> (though filled with many talented players) needs you. Allison isn't all
> they say she is. The people who praise her never saw you play. They just
> don't know.
>
> :)
>
> --Don (NYC)
-Nixon
(shortened)
> In article <35D68C53...@m-y.net>, ni...@m-y.net wrote:
>
> >Steve reported that Allison suffered "a complete mental,
> >emotional and physical breakdown as the set wore on" in her
> >finals match against Vivian.
>
> Shit happens...
>
> I think it is ironic that Jean Balukus was at the tournament. In all the
> years I've watched Jean play, I never saw her break down. and on
> and on and on and on - - - -
Joseph,
I gotta' tell you, I'm sick of this endless prattle about Jean Balukas.
Does she play in current tournaments? No.
So-----she is irrelevant in regard to current tournaments.
Quit trying to relive the days of yesteryear; what are you the Lone Ranger?
Daddy Dave,
--
/s/David Nixon n...@ibm.net ni...@m-y.net
Optimism. It's the only attitude that makes any
sense in this world.
RGPocket
8.
Gordon Matheson
Don wrote from yet another address:
> Jean, if you are listening I want you to know that the woman's field
> (though filled with many talented players) needs you. Allison isn't all
> they say she is. The people who praise her never saw you play. They just
> don't know.
>
> :)
>
> --Don (NYC)
>
I am sick of all you guys talking about how good Jean Balukas was and how
she dominated the tour in her heyday. Then in the next sentence talk about
how she would dominate the tour today and how she is SO much better than
Allison Fisher. Let's stick to the facts here. She hasn't beat Loree Jon
or Robin in years. Not since they were young kids. Until she comes back
to play the best again, all she is is yesteryears news and nostalgia
fodder. She may have been better than any of the current pool players when
she was competing, but her current status only entitles her to "over the
hill" not "Queen of the Hill".
And what's all the posts about how well she did on the men's tour. She won
nothing. She beat a few guys in tournaments. Big deal. The woods are
full of women who beat a few guys in tournaments. She dominated a women's
tour that (according to the quotes I've read from veteran players) wasn't
anywhere as strong as it is today. Someone made a convincing post a month
ago about a women who really dominated in several billiard games at the
turn of the century. Sounded like she would kick Jean's ass.
I would rather have Hank Aaron in his prime on my team than Mark McGuire
anyday. But Old Hank is a long way from his prime. Thank you but I'll
take Mark now. Old Jean is a long way from her prime too. I'll take
Allison for the money if they played tomorrow and I'll be happy to take
your money Don.
When Jean actually comes back and kicks some modern ass you can crow all
you want to. Until the, what has she done lately but run a lot of balls on
her own table playing by herself. Even I can do that. It's harder when
you have a very good opponent.
G.
There, I've said it. Call me a blasphemer for putting the knock on good
St. Jean, but I'm sick of hearing about a quasi hermit who only plays with
herself!!
SGLipper
that Allison did *not* suffer the "complete mental, emotional, and physical
breakdown" I wrote about, but then admit to not even being at the tournament!
While she may be your friend, nothing I said should have been taken at a
personal level. Anyone who witnessed the finals (objectively) would have seen
what I was talking about. Vivian really took her out of her game; she was
missing shots and position that would have been virtual hangers in any other
circumstance.
Allison is the top women player, unquestioned. The fact that she lost one
tournament does not negate this. But a player cannot live by her reputation
alone; she must go out and prove it time and time again. If she does not live
up to this standard, I see nothing wrong with reporting it. Reputations come
from consistent strong play; if she plays a set where she seems "off", are we
supposed to ignore it? Again, she is by far the strongest woman player on the
tour. But she is *not* immune to criticism.
Allison indeed "kept her cool", as you mentioned, but when did I imply the
opposite? She lost quite graciously, and seemingly in good spirits. I fail to
see how this has anything to do with a visible breakdown in her game.
You write:
>In the past few years
>this is something the other women players have rarely been able to
>do to Allison, as she usually controls and dominates the match.
Doesn't this prove *my* point, not yours, in that Vivian did indeed accomplish
this?
Then you write:
>There has been a lot of
>talk about how much better the men pros are than the women; I agree
>with this with the exception of Allison who I think would compete
>well with the men right now if she wanted to.
It seems your friendship with Allison might be getting in the way of your
objectivity. No woman player, including Allison, would be able to compete with
the men. If you disagree, go ahead and arrange that challenge match between
Johnny Archer and Allison and see for yourself. I don't mean to sound rude,
but you're deluding yourself. The men, especially Johnny (!!), play too
strong. Look what happened between Ginky and Vivian: Vivian barely missed, and
was torn apart. Allison plays better than Vivian, to be sure, but Johnny plays
better than Ginky. Over the long run, I believe you'd see just how mismatched
Allison is in that game.
If any lurkers out there (especially anyone who saw the finals) agree or
disagree with any of this, I'd be interested to hear your opinion.
Thanks,
Steve Lipsky
Robert Nicholson
...
It sounds like they do it for the fun of it. That's real neat.
Deno J. Andrews
>
> Joe why is he riding you Jean was out of this world. Allison would need the
> 8.
Oh Please! Sure Jean was the best during her time...but look at the
competition she was up against. There was not two other good female
players at the time for her to possibly lose to. Anybody looks good
when playing people half their speed. Also, think about the table
layouts she looked at when playing inferior players who don't know the
first thing about defense.
I think Allison would beat Jean.
Deno
Deno J. Andrews
> Steve reported that Allison suffered "a complete mental,
> emotional and physical breakdown as the set wore on" in her
> finals match against Vivian. As a friend of Allison's, I do not
> think this happened. Allison is a true professional and
> World Champion in every way and is always just as gracious in
> defeat as she is in winning, although as all great champions she
> hates to lose. I talked to a few people who witnessed the finals
> and they said that Allison indeed kept her cool despite having
> absolutely nothing go her way in the match. In the past few years
> this is something the other women players have rarely been able to
> do to Allison, as she usually controls and dominates the match.
> /s/ Chris Aldridge, Proprietor, CRFB
Mazeltov Chris. I agree 100% and compliment your clear articulation of
your point. It's funny how someone can win 2 out of 3
tournaments...have a bad match, or have someone else have a great match,
and all of a sudden she's washed up, helpless, out of control, lost her
exposure...it's a joke.
She is so strong...even though, it is expeceted she will lose some
time! Big deal...even the New York Yankees, who may be the winningest
baseball team EVER has lost 30 games this year.
I understand there is a certain excitement in watching the favorite lose
to someone who rarely wins tournaments. But please try to keep it in
perspective. THE YANKEES LOST A GAME! Oh no, they're washed up, lost
it, finished!
AAAhhhhhhh.
Deno
hous...@azbilliards.com
Sender) wrote:
>I think it is ironic that Jean Balukus was at the tournament. In all the
>years I've watched Jean play, I never saw her break down. The finals is
>where Jean twisted the knife. Consistently.
>
I wonder if Jean's presence might have had anything to do with
Allison's loss of stroke. I'm sure Allison has heard all the
comparisons too.
Mike Howerton
WebMaster
www.azbilliards.com
Mike Hu
Joseph D. Sender wrote:
> That Johnny Archer must be one baaadddd dude! I don't really follow the
> tournaments, but I see Ginky play regularly and the man rarely misses even
> when playing against the best players!
That's correct. Archer is, imho, w/o controversy, the best tournament 9-ball
player ever. This is substantiated by his lifetime TPA, which hovers around
0.880. Reyes also has that approximate TPA, but he doesn't play tournament
9-ball as well as Archer. As a side note, I've seen my fair share of Ginky
miss. He's a great player, but not world class, imho.
--
Learn from past experiences
Incorporate what is useful
Reject what is useless
Add new and unique methods
Vek9
>Date: 8/17/98 8:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <35D81E...@ix.netcom.con>
Yeah, your right Deno, the caliber of players today is incredible?? Are you
serious? I do think Allison is clearly the best out there, but who can compete
with her? Vivian, Gerda, and Jeanette on their very best days, and Allison's
off day.
Johnny will destroy Allison! The women cannot, and will never be able to
compete with the men! Sorry ladies, it's true. I would say the correct game
for a top male pro versus a top female pro would be the 5 and out, maybe the 6
and out for Allison.
hous...@azbilliards.com
wrote:
>You're nuts Deno. Jean went to the Men's field and played even with the best
>around. The men aren't playing that much better today then they did back then. No
>one on the Women's tour could play the men even today.
>
Sure she played the Men's field even but she did no better than the
average male player on the tour back then. She was placing in the 20s
in the tourneys that she played in. Let's not give everyone the
impression that she was beating players like Sigel or Hopkins back
then.
Mike Howerton
Webmaster
www.azbilliards.com
Gordon Matheson
Deno J. Andrews spinned out:
>It's funny how someone can win 2 out of 3
> tournaments...have a bad match, or have someone else have a great match,
> and all of a sudden she's washed up, helpless, out of control, lost her
> exposure...it's a joke.
> Deno
Considering what Steve's post was, this is a pretty long stretch in
interpretation Deno. Washed up?
I believe you are now ready for the Washington DC spin doctor corp. Which
side of the Pres do you want to take tonight? The exposed part? I think
the raspberry jacket will definitely look good on TV! Too bad they don't
show the socks. Don't forget to shout like Chris Mathews. Good luck! :-)
G.
Ed Mercier
hous...@azbilliards.com wrote:
I agree, let's not give them that impression.
The following quote is from the June 1988 Billiards Digest magazine, page 22, regarding
the 5th McDermott Master's 9-Ball Invitational in Troy Michigan;
"Balukas, meanwhile, came within a whisker of reaching the final eight. After a first
round bye, Balukas -- who is devoting her time almost exclusively to open division play
-- dropped a 7-0 bomb on Howard Vickery. Vickery fought back to take the second set,
7-4, but Queen Jean squeezed out the hill game in the deciding set to advance. Balukas
opened strongly again in her third round tussle with Wade Crane, posting a 7-1 win. She
then led 5-1 in the second set. Crane fought back to knot the score at 6-6, but Balukas
found herself staring down a 7-9 combination that would give her the match. The case
ball jarred. Crane finished off the set and captured the third by a 7-5 margin."
Also from the June 1988 Billiards Digest magazine, page 47, regarding the the Fourth
Annual Glass City Open in Toledo Ohio.
"The tournament's principal upset, however, came in the opening round when Jean Balukas
continued her assault on the men's upper echelon by knocking off Buddy Hall, 11-9, (Her
hit list now includes Hall, McCready, Mike LeBron, and Steve Mizerak.)"
From the April 1988 Billiards Digest, page 48;
"Balukas entered six men's events in 1987, finishing in the money five times."
We'd hate to have anybody get the wrong impression. Like maybe she could play with the
top Men of her day. I'm only sorry I don't have any issues later than June 1988, so I
could report on her continuing success against the 'dregs' of the Men's tour, and her
eventual disbarrment. Sure would appreciate any other rsb'ers who are pack rats and may
be able to report from some old billiard magazines of that era.
Just as an aside, the February 1988 Billiards Digest has a great article on Jean
Balukas's 15 consecutive Major Women's Tournament victories. For a 30 month period,
from 6/18/85 through 11/87, Jean won every major Women's tournament she entered. I'm
not sure when this record ended. This article stated that she was considering starting
to play in Men's events. That means the list of players she beat above apparently
happened in about 6 months of competition against the Men. Even today, very few Men
start out on the Men's tour being competitive with the top players. We can only wonder
how strong Jean would have become if she had been allowed to continue competing against
her peers.
> Mike Howerton
> Webmaster
> www.azbilliards.com
agn...@my-dejanews.com
emer...@execpc.com wrote:
<mega snip>
> "The tournament's principal upset, however, came in the opening round when Jean Balukas
> continued her assault on the men's upper echelon by knocking off Buddy Hall, 11-9, (Her
> hit list now includes Hall, McCready, Mike LeBron, and Steve Mizerak.)"
>
'nuff said. Apparently she was beating players the caliber of Hopkins and
Sigel.
>
> Just as an aside, the February 1988 Billiards Digest has a great article on Jean
> Balukas's 15 consecutive Major Women's Tournament victories. For a 30 month period,
> from 6/18/85 through 11/87, Jean won every major Women's tournament she entered. I'm
> not sure when this record ended.
My latest recollection is that Jean's record stands at 16 consecutive
Tournament victories, unfinished. Maybe the televised '88 World Open was her
last?
--
Regards,
Fred Agnir
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Deno J. Andrews
> Considering what Steve's post was, this is a pretty long stretch in
> interpretation Deno. Washed up?
> I believe you are now ready for the Washington DC spin doctor corp. Which
> side of the Pres do you want to take tonight? The exposed part? I think
> the raspberry jacket will definitely look good on TV! Too bad they don't
> show the socks. Don't forget to shout like Chris Mathews. Good luck! :-)
>
> G.
I'm not trying to single anyone out. Just making a point on how
momentum swings so easily with a single occurance. Maybe it came across
more seriously than it should have, but in reality, I really think it's
funny. As for the raspberry......IT'S MAGENTA~~~~~now damn it...get it
straight you people! ;)
I would try hard to get them to show the socks on TV, I think it is an
important part of the overall outfit.
Deno
Deno J. Andrews
> I agree, let's not give them that impression.
> The following quote is from the June 1988 Billiards Digest magazine, page 22, regarding
> the 5th McDermott Master's 9-Ball Invitational in Troy Michigan;
> "Balukas, meanwhile, came within a whisker of reaching the final eight. After a first
> round bye, Balukas -- who is devoting her time almost exclusively to open division play
> -- dropped a 7-0 bomb on Howard Vickery. Vickery fought back to take the second set,
> 7-4, but Queen Jean squeezed out the hill game in the deciding set to advance. Balukas
> opened strongly again in her third round tussle with Wade Crane, posting a 7-1 win. She
> then led 5-1 in the second set. Crane fought back to knot the score at 6-6, but Balukas
> found herself staring down a 7-9 combination that would give her the match. The case
> ball jarred. Crane finished off the set and captured the third by a 7-5 margin."
> Also from the June 1988 Billiards Digest magazine, page 47, regarding the the Fourth
> Annual Glass City Open in Toledo Ohio.
> "The tournament's principal upset, however, came in the opening round when Jean Balukas
> continued her assault on the men's upper echelon by knocking off Buddy Hall, 11-9, (Her
> hit list now includes Hall, McCready, Mike LeBron, and Steve Mizerak.)"
>
> From the April 1988 Billiards Digest, page 48;
> "Balukas entered six men's events in 1987, finishing in the money five times."
>
> We'd hate to have anybody get the wrong impression. Like maybe she could play with the
> top Men of her day. I'm only sorry I don't have any issues later than June 1988, so I
> could report on her continuing success against the 'dregs' of the Men's tour, and her
> eventual disbarrment. Sure would appreciate any other rsb'ers who are pack rats and may
> be able to report from some old billiard magazines of that era.
>
> Just as an aside, the February 1988 Billiards Digest has a great article on Jean
> Balukas's 15 consecutive Major Women's Tournament victories. For a 30 month period,
> from 6/18/85 through 11/87, Jean won every major Women's tournament she entered. I'm
> not sure when this record ended. This article stated that she was considering starting
> to play in Men's events. That means the list of players she beat above apparently
> happened in about 6 months of competition against the Men. Even today, very few Men
> start out on the Men's tour being competitive with the top players. We can only wonder
> how strong Jean would have become if she had been allowed to continue competing against
> her peers.
Blah blah blah blah blah..;)....so what? Did she ever win a major men's
tournament :(? As for billiards digest articles.....hype:). Big deal,
so she beat a list of players which never resulted in a victory. Even I
have an impressive list of Carom victories! And I have never won a
major tournament...so I ask again...so what?
The point I am trying to make, besides me being crazy...which is an
accurate assessment.:(..is that she is/was no better than a high B class
male player at any time throughout her life. Now granted, I have a lot
of respect for her because she did play well, but not anywhere near
what some seem to remember.
Allison is a World Champion at two different disciplines, which right
off the bat throws her into a higher level. She has only been playing
9ball for a few years and already plays better than Jean. To compare
these two is a waste of time. And for the argument about Jean winning
all those consecutive tournaments...well I stand on my previous
statement...look at who she was playing...NOBODY! So again...big deal.
If she thought she could win, she would be out there playing right now
in the WPBA. So until I see her dominate the WPBA again, I have to
stick with my crazy guns and say nay.
Deno J. Andrews
Mike Hu
Deno J. Andrews wrote:
> Blah blah blah blah blah..;)....so what? Did she ever win a major men's
> tournament :(?
I don't think Fisher has won a men's tourney either, right? So if they both haven't won one,
what point are you trying to make in this regard (no hostility intended)?
> As for billiards digest articles.....hype:).
How do you know this?
> The point I am trying to make, besides me being crazy...which is an
> accurate assessment.:(..is that she is/was no better than a high B class
> male player at any time throughout her life.
This is a reasonable assessment. But on the other hand, are you suggesting that Fisher is
higher than this, say, perhaps, a low A class player?
> Allison is a World Champion at two different disciplines, which right
> off the bat throws her into a higher level. She has only been playing
> 9ball for a few years and already plays better than Jean.
If we had TPA stats for both women over a good length of time, this discussion could be
settled much easier. I believe Fisher shot around 0.850 for a tourney, and I've heard Jean
shot around 0.900 for a tourney, but it was only for 1 tourney for both cases, not that much
data to draw any good conclusions on. Also, I believe the discussion is the skill levels of
the two women wrt. 9-ball, as opposed to who is the better "all-around" player (since you
included Fisher's snooker skills).
> If she thought she could win, she would be out there playing right now
> in the WPBA. So until I see her dominate the WPBA again, I have to
> stick with my crazy guns and say nay.
Well, I don't this is a valid argument. Perhaps she feels that she's over the hill. This is
certainly possible as well as likely, since she's much older than she was when she was
dominating. What we need are opinions of touring pros who've been around when Jean was
around, the likes of Robin Dodson, LJJ, to give their opinions to us, as well as old school
male touring pros we've seen/played Jean, such as Mizerak, Hall......to give us their opinions
on who was better in their prime at 9-ball (for example).
Deno J. Andrews
> I don't think Fisher has won a men's tourney either, right? So if they both haven't won > one, what point are you trying to make in this regard (no hostility intended)?
> This is a reasonable assessment. But on the other hand, are you suggesting that Fisher is
> higher than this, say, perhaps, a low A class player?
Yes, I believe in skill, professionalism and overall Game skills, I
believe Allison is at a higher level than Jean was. Not to take
anything away from Jean, I stand with my feeling she was a high...maybe
very high B player, and Allison to be a low A.
> If we had TPA stats for both women over a good length of time, this discussion could be
> settled much easier. I believe Fisher shot around 0.850 for a tourney, and I've heard >Jean shot around 0.900 for a tourney, but it was only for 1 tourney for both cases, not >that much data to draw any good conclusions on. Also, I believe the discussion is the >skill levels of the two women wrt. 9-ball, as opposed to who is the better "all-around" >player (since you included Fisher's snooker skills).
I don't think the stats would be accurate. Obviously Jean would have
higher reading because the competition was much weaker than it is now.
So I think Jean would have an unfair statistical advantage because she
had more opportunity to play better, because of the lack of knowledge
her peers had. So if the numbers are close, I think that would show
Allison to be slightly superior, because there are many more....better
competitors in the field than what Jean experienced.
> Well, I don't this is a valid argument. Perhaps she feels that she's over the hill. >This is certainly possible as well as likely, since she's much older than she was when she >was> dominating.
Exactly what I said, she probably feels she can't win. Age has nothing
to do with it. Raymond Cuelemans, who has dominated every major
discipline of billiards for 30 years is over age 60. Oh, and he is
playing better now than in the past.
No hostility taken, I feel we both have made some good points. I know a
series of tournament matches betweent he two would settle our
debate!!!!! Which ever way it swings...they are both class players and
good for the game, so I must salute them both.
Deno J. Andrews
Laura Friedman
>
> Blah blah blah blah blah..;)....so what? Did she ever win a major men's
> so she beat a list of players which never resulted in a victory. Even I
> have an impressive list of Carom victories! And I have never won a
> major tournament...so I ask again...so what?
>
> accurate assessment.:(..is that she is/was no better than a high B class
> male player at any time throughout her life.
Deno, I adore you, but you *are* crazy.
How does beating Buddy Hall, Howard Vickery, Steve Mizerak, Mike LeBron
and Keith McCready (in his *prime*) not make one an A player?!?! How in
the world can you say Jean Balukas was a "B" level player after such an
impressive list of wins -- in *competition*!? What, are there like ten
A players in the world, and if you can't beat them you're a B player?
Laura (shaking her head in amazement at the lengths people will go to
justify not accepting the facts)
Deno J. Andrews
> Deno, I adore you, but you *are* crazy.
>
> How does beating Buddy Hall, Howard Vickery, Steve Mizerak, Mike LeBron
> and Keith McCready (in his *prime*) not make one an A player?!?! How in
> the world can you say Jean Balukas was a "B" level player after such an
> impressive list of wins -- in *competition*!? What, are there like ten
> A players in the world, and if you can't beat them you're a B player?
>
> Laura (shaking her head in amazement at the lengths people will go to
> justify not accepting the facts)
Oh...I get it :)....let's see now, I have beaten George Ashby (8 time
National Champion), Carlos Hallon (3 time National Champion) and Mazin
Shooni (top 5 in US) all in sanctioned events....so let's see now...that
would make me an A (I wish :( )player by the standards you support.
Anybody can win matches every once in a while. The point is, that she
did not do this regularly, and her exposure to that competition was
short lived compared to what it should have been if she would have
continued. So her list of victims, as impressive as it is, is just a
list of people she has beaten once...twice...??? not even resulting in a
tournament victory.
Don't get me wrong, she was a great player. But she was not the second
coming as some would have her built up to be. Maybe I am wrong? I
don't know. But if she is as good as everyone thinks...than why not a
return?
Deno Crazy In Chicago
PS-wish me luck in my first match. I am sitting here with the cellular
modem waiting to play.
Mike Page
> Laura Friedman wrote:
> > Deno, I adore you, but you *are* crazy.
> >
> > How does beating Buddy Hall, Howard Vickery, Steve Mizerak, Mike LeBron
> > and Keith McCready (in his *prime*) not make one an A player?!?! How in
> > the world can you say Jean Balukas was a "B" level player after such an
> > impressive list of wins -- in *competition*!? What, are there like ten
> > A players in the world, and if you can't beat them you're a B player?
> >
> > Laura (shaking her head in amazement at the lengths people will go to
> > justify not accepting the facts)
>
> Oh...I get it :)....let's see now, I have beaten George Ashby (8 time
> National Champion), Carlos Hallon (3 time National Champion) and Mazin
> Shooni (top 5 in US) all in sanctioned events....so let's see now...that
> would make me an A
No Deno. You've beaten only three big-names, so that would make you a C.
You have to beat Five to be considered a B :-)
good luck at Chris's! Keep us posted.
--
mike page
fargo
Gordon Matheson
Deno J. Andrews <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<35D9A6...@ix.netcom.com>...
As for the raspberry......IT'S MAGENTA~~~~~now damn it...get it
> straight you people! ;)
I looked for your jacket on your site but all I saw was some blank pages
which looked like maple walnut ice cream. Maybe you should consider
trading it for a Raspberry. It contrasts with your complexion better when
your face turns red when you shout. :-)
G.
Ed Mercier
a return?" is ridiculous. She was booted from both genders professional
tours. This has probably never happened before in the history of sports. She
has already accomplished things in billiards that will probably never be
repeated.
So you're saying if she doesn't spend all her energies reaquiring those
skills, rededicating her life to this rinky-dink, no money sport, she couldn't
have been very good in the first place. When someone puts up some real money,
maybe $100,000, I think you could get her back, and see the thrashing that
Allison is waiting for. Until then, I can't see her changing the course of
her life for not much more than charity. She can probably make as much money
doing 20 other things she's more than capable of, as she would on anybody's
professional tour, and she doesn't have to put up with the hassles, again.
Bridget
> Deno J. Andrews wrote:
>
> > Blah blah blah blah blah..;)....so what? Did she ever win a major men's
> > tournament :(?
>
> I don't think Fisher has won a men's tourney either, right? So if they both haven't won one,
> what point are you trying to make in this regard (no hostility intended)?
Has Allison played in any men's tournaments (yet)? I'd be interested to see how she would fare.
> > Allison is a World Champion at two different disciplines, which right
> > off the bat throws her into a higher level. She has only been playing
> > 9ball for a few years and already plays better than Jean.
>
> If we had TPA stats for both women over a good length of time, this discussion could be
> settled much easier. I believe Fisher shot around 0.850 for a tourney, and I've heard Jean
> shot around 0.900 for a tourney, but it was only for 1 tourney for both cases, not that much
> data to draw any good conclusions on.
No offense intended, but why exactly do you, Mike, consistently bring up TPA stats in your
posts? (Please, don't offer the explanation that TPA stats are the most scientifically accurate
way to measure skill. I can understand that rationale. It's just that, frankly, this endless
discussion of TPA stats is getting intensely boring.)
Of course I'm curious about Jean's ability, past or present. But this bickering doesn't seem to
me to be accomplishing anything.
-Bridget
Deno J. Andrews
It will be up....I am just learning how to make a web site, so things
are going up slowly. Please forgive the blankness and relate them to
the blankness inside my head!
Deno
Robin Dodson
>
> Mike Hu wrote:
>
> > I don't think Fisher has won a men's tourney either, right? So if they both haven't won > one, what point are you trying to make in this regard (no hostility intended)?
> > higher than this, say, perhaps, a low A class player?
>
> Yes, I believe in skill, professionalism and overall Game skills, I
> believe Allison is at a higher level than Jean was. Not to take
> anything away from Jean, I stand with my feeling she was a high...maybe
> very high B player, and Allison to be a low A.
>
>
> I don't think the stats would be accurate. Obviously Jean would have
> higher reading because the competition was much weaker than it is now.
> So I think Jean would have an unfair statistical advantage because she
> had more opportunity to play better, because of the lack of knowledge
> her peers had. So if the numbers are close, I think that would show
> Allison to be slightly superior, because there are many more....better
> competitors in the field than what Jean experienced.
>
> > Well, I don't this is a valid argument. Perhaps she feels that she's over the hill. >This is certainly possible as well as likely, since she's much older than she was when she >was> dominating.
>
> Exactly what I said, she probably feels she can't win. Age has nothing
> to do with it. Raymond Cuelemans, who has dominated every major
> discipline of billiards for 30 years is over age 60. Oh, and he is
> playing better now than in the past.
>
> No hostility taken, I feel we both have made some good points. I know a
> series of tournament matches betweent he two would settle our
> debate!!!!! Which ever way it swings...they are both class players and
> good for the game, so I must salute them both.
> Deno J. Andrews
I did talk to Jean during Allison's match with Ewa. Ewa was ahead 8-4.
In which Allison came from behind to win (there was no folding in that
match). I've never seen Allison fold under any circumstance.
I did ask Jean what SHE thought???? Everyone's big question, who do
you think would win?? Jean along with Allison are such awesome champions
her comment was humble. She just said she wouldn't want it to be winner
take all. The difference between the women and men, sorry guys its just
business. A business Jean left, and listening to her hasn't missed for a
second. However she did say she loved the competition any competition
though. It didn't matter what sport it was, she is a competitor.
Though the women did not play as well. Jean proved herself when she
played along side the men! She really seemed to be enjoying herself
with the sport she grew up with. I think she finally felt some serious
competition and rose for the occasion. I loved watching when she played
Keith (especially when Keith said she wouldn't get to 5). However it was
Keith who only made it to 4! And he walked away KNOWING he had no
chance. Jean's break and knowledge of the game kept Keith in his seat,
11-4.
I think for the first time Jean knew she was the one the crowd was
pulling for. She was the underdog. However, she was also a champion. And
she knew how to win, so when she played the men even though the underdog
she had champion written all over her!
Same with Allison. Though she didn't know as much in the game of nine
ball, she came over a champion! And knew how to win. When she didn't
think she could run out from a bad position shot she would just duck.
Then get ball in hand and proceed to win.
Ok now I put myself out on the line, my opinion. If Allison would have
come during Jean's time my vote would have been for Jean hands down!
Only now it is Allison's time and my vote would have to be with Allison.
I only hope that when Allison meets her match there will be more money
on the tour!!!!!
<><Robin
Mike Hu
Bridget wrote:
> Has Allison played in any men's tournaments (yet)? I'd be interested to see how she would fare.
>
Here's my take on this issue. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but can't Fisher "legally" play in
some men's tourneys? If so, why doesn't she? I don't buy her reason that "I don't need to play
against the men" response. If she feels that she can place or perhaps win one of them, why doesn't
she? Or is my reasoning here flawed? So if she can play in them, but chooses not to, doesn't that
suggest she feels she can't make $$$ playing in them, that it would be waste of her time,
financially, at least?
> No offense intended, but why exactly do you, Mike, consistently bring up TPA stats in your
> posts? (Please, don't offer the explanation that TPA stats are the most scientifically accurate
> way to measure skill. I can understand that rationale. It's just that, frankly, this endless
> discussion of TPA stats is getting intensely boring.)
>
I feel that TPA stats are the best indicator of future performance, and overall performance of pool
players. And this is not just because it is the only performance gauger out there. I don't have
concrete stats on this, but I'm willing to bet that somewhere around 98% of the time the player who
shot a higher TPA for a match ends up winning the match. That is a pretty strong correlation. It is
unfortunate if you find my (or anyone else) talking about TPA to be boring. You can always not read
the post, right (no hostility)?
> Of course I'm curious about Jean's ability, past or present. But this bickering doesn't seem to
> me to be accomplishing anything.
>
Who is bickering (no hostility here)? Deno and I were having a nice discussion, right Deno?
agn...@my-dejanews.com
r...@popd.ix.netcom.com wrote:
<snip>
> Though the women did not play as well. Jean proved herself when she
> played along side the men!
Can you give us an assessment of your, LJJ's, and Ewa's game today compared
to back 10 years ago? Better, same, worse. Many people believe that today's
competition is much harder than back then. Do you agree?
<snip 2>
> Ok now I put myself out on the line, my opinion. If Allison would have
> come during Jean's time my vote would have been for Jean hands down!
If I read this correctly, you're saying that today's Allison would be beat by
yesterday's Jean. Is that right?
> Only now it is Allison's time and my vote would have to be with Allison.
> I only hope that when Allison meets her match there will be more money
> on the tour!!!!!
> <><Robin
>
Best regards,
--
Fred Agnir (big fan)
bp
>Blah blah blah blah blah..;)....so what? Did she ever win a major men's
>tournament :(? As for billiards digest articles.....hype:). Big deal,
>so she beat a list of players which never resulted in a victory. Even I
>have an impressive list of Carom victories! And I have never won a
>major tournament...so I ask again...so what?
>
>The point I am trying to make, besides me being crazy...which is an
>accurate assessment.:(..is that she is/was no better than a high B class
>male player at any time throughout her life. Now granted, I have a lot
>of respect for her because she did play well, but not anywhere near
>what some seem to remember.
>
>Allison is a World Champion at two different disciplines, which right
>off the bat throws her into a higher level. She has only been playing
>9ball for a few years and already plays better than Jean. To compare
>these two is a waste of time. And for the argument about Jean winning
>all those consecutive tournaments...well I stand on my previous
>statement...look at who she was playing...NOBODY! So again...big deal.
>
I seem to remember her playing the same (except for the newbie) women
that play today. So I guess you can say Allison is playing nobodies
also.
>If she thought she could win, she would be out there playing right now
>in the WPBA.
She didn't quit because she thought she was a loser. Her playing or
not has nothing to do with "if she thinks she could win".
>So until I see her dominate the WPBA again, I have to
>stick with my crazy guns and say nay.
Thats gutsy.
>Deno J. Andrews
Robin Dodson
> to back 10 years ago? Better, same, worse. Many people believe that today's
> competition is much harder than back then. Do you agree?
>
<snip>
> My game has improved in knowledge. I believe it has lacked in love for the game. It is hard to keep at it. Where when I was younger you couldn't get me away from the table. Now,I need discipline to get to the table to practice. The killer is harder to come by these days.
LJ'S game is really off right now. She starts to see glimpses and then
falls back a bit. I think see suffers from the same thing as I do. Only
with three little ones running around I can only imagine! My kids were
spread out over the years.
>Ewa's game has improved. You can tell she is working hard on her game! She has been great to watch personally. She has helped my mental game get back on course.
> If I read this correctly, you're saying that today's Allison would be beat by
> yesterday's Jean. Is that right?
<snip>
Yes, that is how I see it.
>
<snip>
> And as far as the tour goes why I feel it is tougher than years gone by is there are alot more great players. Our tour is solid with champions.
<><Robin
Deno J. Andrews
> I seem to remember her playing the same (except for the newbie) women
> that play today. So I guess you can say Allison is playing nobodies
> also.
If you think the competition is the same now as it was then...you are
truly mistaken...IMHO :)
Deno
TonyG369
occaisional 4-pack Allison does not put together 4 racks.
TonyG369
can't convincingly beat Grady Matthews ... what are saying she can't beat a
real B-rated player like Ginky or Tony Robles. Wake up and smell the Java. Man
it's okay to say she's great and a heck of a nice person but the difference is
and i'm sure many will agree Jean played perfect position and had a "good"
touch. Fisher lacks a little touch.
Patrick Greenwald
>Oh...I get it :)....let's see now, I have beaten George Ashby (8 time
>National Champion), Carlos Hallon (3 time National Champion) and Mazin
>Shooni (top 5 in US) all in sanctioned events....so let's see now...that
>Anybody can win matches every once in a while. The point is, that she
>did not do this regularly, and her exposure to that competition was
>short lived compared to what it should have been if she would have
>continued. So her list of victims, as impressive as it is, is just a
>list of people she has beaten once...twice...??? not even resulting in a
>tournament victory.
I hate to point out the obvious but since Ashby, Hallon,
and Shooni are *not* "A" Players, how could beating them make
you one? If your list included Ceulemans, Blomdahl, and
Jaspers then maybe...
--
Patrick Greenwald - PGree...@xta.com
Lake Geneva WI, USA
Deno J. Andrews
>
> I hate to point out the obvious but since Ashby, Hallon,
> and Shooni are *not* "A" Players, how could beating them make
> you one? If your list included Ceulemans, Blomdahl, and
> Jaspers then maybe...
high ranks in the world status (top 10). I can't furnish the exact
placements without looking through some stuff. Oh and add Francis
Forten...who is 15th in the world and is definately an "A" player. He
experienced the magenta yesterday! :)
Oh...and Hallon just took 2nd place in the Bogota Colombia World Cup
event...last week...ahead of Jaspers, Cuelemans, Blomdahl,
Sayginer...etc. So I think he qualifies as an "A" player.
On a final note, I think you read my post wrong. I never stated to be
an A player. My point was to show that just beating certain players
does not qualify you to be aligned with their status. So by saying I
have beaten these guys at least once, doesn't in any way mean I am at
their level, as in the case of Jean. She has beaten an impressive list
of players, but does not qualify as an A player. That was the only
point.
Deno
Jonathan Williams
admirer of Allison for quite some time, but without ever having seen Jean
play I don't think I could honestly even make a comment in regards to
comparing the two. I was wondering though if anybody had any video tape of
Jean playing or if they new of some place were I could buy a video. Any
help would be appreciated.
Thank You,
Jonathan
bp
Sender) wrote:
Well the top player then are the top players now. There are a few new
faces but it's pretty much the same crowd. With Alison being the
exception
>
>Okay, does anyone have high run figures for the present day female
>players? I know, I know..."straight pool is dead"...I'm still curious.
>
>:)
>
>--Don (NYC)
Laura Friedman
>
> Well the top player then are the top players now. There are a few new
> faces but it's pretty much the same crowd. With Alison being the
> exception
Actually, there are far more "new" players now than old timers. There
probably aren't more than ten players currently on the tour who were on
the tour when Jean was playing. Outside of Robin, Ewa and Loree Jon,
the rest of the very top are new: Jeanette, Gerda, Allison, Helena, etc.
Laura