Pedro Martinez: Dead by dawn?
lf7...@albnyvms.bitnet
R. Ahn) writes:
>He's hit 6 batters in 5 starts I believe, and that doesn't count
>multiple incidents when he nearly beheaded a few. Today, Derek
>Bell nearly got whammed by a Pedro sailing-wide fastball. He proceeded
>to strike out on a way-high fastball, and I guess he just didn't see
>any justice in that at-bat and decided to charge the mound when the
>option of sulking back to the dugout didn't appeal to him.
Nobody likes getting struck out. Getting struck out right after you almost got
beaned is twice as rough on the hitter. Anytime the batter hears some chin
music he wants to rope the next pitch back through the box; If he doesn't get
the chance (i.e. strikes out) he's GOTTA be really pissed.
>Is he simply not in full control of his pitches? Or is he really trying
>to make NL hitters fear for their lives. His pitch to Bell did seem like
>one that got away from him (btw, he also injured another Padres player's
>hand with a wildpitch). And when he DOES in fact hit someone, he doesn't
>give menacing looks, but just blankly blinks at the batter. I'm
>interested to know what Pedro himself has said in any interviews.
>Or what his managers or any of you just think about this.
Thankfully, I don't have him on my rotisserie team because he HAS been pretty
wild in critical situations. I think the key to his control is in an article I
read on him at the time of the Deshields trade; saying that Martinez always
tries to throw 110% instead of just 100%... as a pitcher I know the damage
overthrowing can do, and how wild and unpredictable the pitches can be. I'm
sure he doesn't intend to hit these batters, you'll never get to the majors as
a starter if you have a reputation as a headhunter, your managers just won't
put up with it. That is why there's no 'menacing look to the batter', because
it really wasn't intentional. If you start staring down the batters after you
plunk them, the umpires will most likely give you the heave-ho because then
you're really instigating.
On a slightly different angle, I think that throwing inside (way
inside) is one of the few recourses pitchers today have against the batter.
The strike zone has gone from the shoulders to the knees --> armpits to the
knees --> belt to the knees; few umpires call the pitches on the black
(pitches that cross the plate on the very edges, which are black); batters are
stronger and more highly trained than pitchers today; the mound has been
lowered; the blk rule has been enforced, and strictly so, not allowing the
pitcher to take any liberties with a runner on base; and a plethora of other
rule changes and game developments that forces pitchers to serve up meatballs.
-Leon Feingold
lf7...@albny1.albany.edu
#25 Albany Great Danes
next year Cal. Angels!!!
Scott Southwick
> after somebody else asked:
>> Is he simply not in full control of his pitches?
>
Yikes: it's 8 walks and 6 HBP so far... y'all know I think he's a
saint, but that looks suspicious even to me...
yrs,
Scotty
--
************** Scott Southwick/sco...@indiana.edu *****************
UCS Wordsmith
fiction at http://scwww.ucs.indiana.edu/scpeople/scotty
Rob Costain
>Pedro of the Expos (not the PA Martinez on the Padres) is on my
>rotisserie team, so I keep close tabs on him.
>
>All I can say is 1) I hope he doesn't kill a baseball player before
>the year is over 2) I hope he doesn't killed before the year is over.
>
>He's hit 6 batters in 5 starts I believe, and that doesn't count
>multiple incidents when he nearly beheaded a few. Today, Derek
>Bell nearly got whammed by a Pedro sailing-wide fastball. He proceeded
>to strike out on a way-high fastball, and I guess he just didn't see
>any justice in that at-bat and decided to charge the mound when the
>option of sulking back to the dugout didn't appeal to him.
>
>my question is this.....
>Is he simply not in full control of his pitches? Or is he really trying
>to make NL hitters fear for their lives. His pitch to Bell did seem like
>one that got away from him (btw, he also injured another Padres player's
>hand with a wildpitch). And when he DOES in fact hit someone, he doesn't
>give menacing looks, but just blankly blinks at the batter. I'm
>interested to know what Pedro himself has said in any interviews.
>Or what his managers or any of you just think about this.
>
gets careless and allows his elbow to drop. This causes the ball to come in
too far inside. Both Alou and pitching coach, Joe Kerrigan, plan to talk to
Martinez about this. They want him to stay inside, but have better control.
In yesterday's game he was a little lacklustre, according to the coaches.
>
_______________________________________________________________
| Rob Costain | rjc...@vax2.concordia.ca |
| M.A. Student | rj_...@pavo.concordia.ca |
| Educational Technology Programme | 75020...@compuserve.com |
| Concordia University | |
| Montreal, Quebec, CANADA | |
|__________________________________|____________________________|
Steve Rodems
Martinez is or is not throwing at batters. I don't think he is throwing at
batters to intentionally try to hit them. Sanders is the perfect example,
he is not going to purposely hit a guy when he has a perfect game going.
Martinez is trying to pitch inside, off the plate, as a means of setting up
a hitter (often for a breaking ball or a pitch on the outside corner).
While this is a perfectly legitimate practice, Martinez is pushing the
boundaries of etiquette by coming in up around the head. A baseball thrown
a 90+ mph is a dangerous weapon and the hitters around the league seem to
be getting a little pissed off at Pedro. Every pitcher throws inside to
establish that outside corner but Pedro is using that pitch as a weapon
rather than a tool. Derrick Bell's quote was, "I don't mind a guy coming
inside 0-2, but when you start up around the head, that's ridiculous."
One of these days Pedro's gonna see what a fastball at the head looks like.
--
Steve "Some day I will get the hell out of Wisconsin" Rodems
"Then I am here for the Lee family renioun ... shur-wajo-shur"
sean knickman
>rotisserie team, so I keep close tabs on him.
>All I can say is 1) I hope he doesn't kill a baseball player before
>the year is over 2) I hope he doesn't killed before the year is over.
>He's hit 6 batters in 5 starts I believe, and that doesn't count
I love it! He has jumped up to my third favorite pitcher, than isn't
a Yankee. With the way hitters stand on the plate, and dive into
pitches, it is about time a pitcher took the inside of the plate
back. The hitters today are just a bunch of whinny millionaire wimps.
Get plucked, take your base, and forget about it. Maybe you like to
watch 12-10 games everyday, but I think it is pathetic. If more pitchers
had the balls to come inside like Pedro does, then maybe we wouldn't be
watching all these slugfests all the time.
--
| Conservatives define compassion not by the number
Sean Knickman | of people who receive some kind of government aid,
knic...@cse.unl.edu | but rather by the number of people who no longer
| need it. -Jack Kemp
Steve Geswein, IBRC
> In article <2pvcmg$8...@naple.med.miami.edu> er...@umbio.med.miami.edu (Eugene R. Ahn) writes:
>>Is he simply not in full control of his pitches? Or is he really trying
>>to make NL hitters fear for their lives.
>
> to the effect of "I don't care if I hit a thousand batters, I'm going
> to pitch inside." Personally I think this is wonderful, and I wish
> more pitchers today would take this attitude.
Does pitching inside effectively really require hitting a thousand
batters? The Atlanta pitching staff led the league in ERA while only
hitting 22 guys all season last year. Does Martinez really need to hit
that many before the All-Star Break to be effective? (He's on a pace to
do it...)
I'm sure Ray Chapman, Dickie Thon, Tony Conigliaro, et al. wouldn't
consider hitting a thousand batters wonderful. Players take risks when
coming up to the plate: facing a guy who believes what Martinez
reportedly said is a needless risk IMO.
The world can't be so short of pitching that baseball needs to give
headhunters a job. (Though I've seen the evidence to the contrary...)
I almost can't believe Martinez said this out loud. Does he not realize
that he has to bat too? If this keeps up, Martinez could collect some
bruises, or worse, from retaliatory pitches. I don't consider that a
very good solution myself, but it's going to happen... the rules provide
for no better solution than your basic wanton endangerment.
Steve Geswein sges...@indyvax.iupui.edu
Ken MacFarlane
>my question is this.....
>
>one that got away from him (btw, he also injured another Padres player's
>hand with a wildpitch). And when he DOES in fact hit someone, he doesn't
>give menacing looks, but just blankly blinks at the batter. I'm
>interested to know what Pedro himself has said in any interviews.
>Or what his managers or any of you just think about this.
Last night one of the ESPN reporters stated that Pedro said something
to the effect of "I don't care if I hit a thousand batters, I'm going
to pitch inside." Personally I think this is wonderful, and I wish
more pitchers today would take this attitude.
-Ken.
--
Ken MacFarlane | email: k...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
CETS Technical Staff | k...@pender.ee.upenn.edu
University of Pennsylvania | office: 057 GRW (Moore)
Philadelphia, PA 19104 | phone: (215)898-2476
Eric Roush
sean knickman <knic...@cse.unl.edu> wrote:
>>Pedro of the Expos (not the PA Martinez on the Padres) is on my
>>rotisserie team, so I keep close tabs on him.
>>All I can say is 1) I hope he doesn't kill a baseball player before
>>the year is over 2) I hope he doesn't killed before the year is over.
>>He's hit 6 batters in 5 starts I believe, and that doesn't count
>
>I love it! He has jumped up to my third favorite pitcher, than isn't
>a Yankee. With the way hitters stand on the plate, and dive into
>pitches, it is about time a pitcher took the inside of the plate
>back. The hitters today are just a bunch of whinny millionaire wimps.
>Get plucked, take your base, and forget about it. Maybe you like to
>watch 12-10 games everyday, but I think it is pathetic. If more pitchers
>had the balls to come inside like Pedro does, then maybe we wouldn't be
>watching all these slugfests all the time.
Hmmm. IMO, if more pitchers pitched like Pedro, I think we'd have
even more slugfests. Certainly that was the case in the 50's
and early 60's, when the number of hit batsmen reached all-time
highs.
Perhaps this guy likes 1890's baseball, where anything short of
pulling a gun on the field went. I don't.
However, I will say that I'm surprised that we haven't seen
the formerly traditional recourse to a headhunting pitcher
applied to Mr. Martinez. Namely, a bunt between 1st and 2nd.
Make the pitcher cover 1st. Need I say more? I guess
today's players just don't "execute" the fundamentals
anymore.
Grumpily yours,
--
Eric Roush | Next to religion, baseball has furnished a greater impact
also coache@ | on American life than any other institution.
aol.com | Herbert Hoover
David K. Lowenthal
Ken MacFarlane <k...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Last night one of the ESPN reporters stated that Pedro said something
>to the effect of "I don't care if I hit a thousand batters, I'm going
>to pitch inside." Personally I think this is wonderful, and I wish
>more pitchers today would take this attitude.
>-Ken.
>--
Have you ever stepped to the plate? Apparently not, with this comment.
If you ever had a 95 MPH fastball come at your head and see your life
flash before you, I think you might have a slightly different attitude.
I know I didn't like it, and I only ever saw 75 MPH fastballs.
What Martinez is doing is NOT moving batters off the plate, which is
perfectly acceptable. He's throwing at heads. That is unacceptable.
--dave
Richard Nimijean
: In article <2q1dig$i...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
: Ken MacFarlane <k...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
: >Last night one of the ESPN reporters stated that Pedro said something
: >to the effect of "I don't care if I hit a thousand batters, I'm going
: >to pitch inside." Personally I think this is wonderful, and I wish
: >more pitchers today would take this attitude.
: >-Ken.
: >--
The Expos' broadcasters, Dave Van Horne and Ken Singleton, provided an
interesting debate on how to pitch inside. Singleton of course defended
"hitters' rights" and maintained the line held by several of the comments
in this thread (see the Derak Bell quote above). Van Horne contrasted
Pedro's wildness outside with how Dennis Martinez used to pitch inside,
namely below the head! There is definitely room in the game for pitching
inside, but a few factors must be considered - compared to Gibson,
Drysadle et al, pitchers throw way faster today. When combined with a
smaller strike zone and the penchant for most hitters to crowd the plate,
pitching inside becomes more difficult. Through in high salaries ( batters
wanting to hit well and pitchers not wnating to be hit in order to stay in
the ganme) and you get a more explosive situation than in earlier times
when pitching inside was a less controversial element of the game.
Enforcing the proper strike zone would help a bit, I think, as hitters
would be less likely to dig in, focusing just i\on the rather small strike
zone and giving pitchers a better chance for setting up hitters without
beaning somebody (or coming dangersously close_. It is, granted, a partial
solution. Any other ideas?
--
Richard Nimijean
Department of Political Science
Carleton University
Ottawa, Canada
John C. Davenport
>
>Hmmm. IMO, if more pitchers pitched like Pedro, I think we'd have
>even more slugfests. Certainly that was the case in the 50's
>and early 60's, when the number of hit batsmen reached all-time
>highs.
More guys are getting drilled now than in the days of Marichal,
Gibson, Drysdale, and Maglie. More.
HBP were higher in the wild 1890s. They have been constantly kept as
an official statistic since 1916. Since 1916, the ALs all-time record
high was set in 1922, and tied in 1993: 0.56 per game. The NLs alltime
high was set in 1916, and tied in 1993: 0.50 per game. The combination
of the two was the highest ever since records were kept. We've got a
problem here, people.
>Perhaps this guy likes 1890's baseball, where anything short of
>pulling a gun on the field went. I don't.
Neither do I. Why doesn't the commissioner DO something?
Oh, yeah. Right.
--
Clay D.
jc...@virginia.edu
A manager who'd bat Flynn and Blake ahead of Casey is an idiot.
Mike Jones
>In article <2q1dig$i...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
>Ken MacFarlane <k...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>Last night one of the ESPN reporters stated that Pedro said something
>>to the effect of "I don't care if I hit a thousand batters, I'm going
>>to pitch inside." Personally I think this is wonderful, and I wish
>>more pitchers today would take this attitude.
>If you ever had a 95 MPH fastball come at your head and see your life
>flash before you, I think you might have a slightly different attitude.
>I know I didn't like it, and I only ever saw 75 MPH fastballs.
Don't put words in other people's mouths, please. I tend to agree,
provided the pitcher isn't throwing at people's heads. The head is
well above the strike zone. A pitch vertically in the strike zone but
inside is just fine with me.
>What Martinez is doing is NOT moving batters off the plate, which is
>perfectly acceptable. He's throwing at heads. That is unacceptable.
Evidence? Has he hit anyone in the head? He didn't hit Sanders or
Santiago on or particularly near the head.
Mike Jones | jon...@rpi.edu
The thing that bothers me is not that life is hard, but that it is much
harder than it has to be.
Jason M. Halm
Organization: Illinois State University
David K. Lowenthal (d...@CS.Arizona.EDU) wrote:
: >to the effect of "I don't care if I hit a thousand batters, I'm going
: >to pitch inside." Personally I think this is wonderful, and I wish
: >more pitchers today would take this attitude.
: >-Ken.
: >--
: Have you ever stepped to the plate? Apparently not, with this comment.
: If you ever had a 95 MPH fastball come at your head and see your life
: flash before you, I think you might have a slightly different attitude.
: I know I didn't like it, and I only ever saw 75 MPH fastballs.
: What Martinez is doing is NOT moving batters off the plate, which is
: perfectly acceptable. He's throwing at heads. That is unacceptable.
: --dave
Dave,
I dont think that the guy is going out there head hunting. I think that he
is trying to throw too hard every game that he goes out there. Take it from a
guy that threw 70+. One does have to establish the inside of the plate if he
is primarily a fast-ball pitcher. If one is good with the breaking stuff then
you dont need the inside as much. Pedro is not throwing at anyone on purpose.
He is still a kid that needs to learn a little better control. Why do you
think that the umps have not tossed him yet?
Tired of this discussion,
Jason Halm
joseph.charles.kolar..iii
>David K. Lowenthal (d...@CS.Arizona.EDU) wrote:
>
>The Expos' broadcasters, Dave Van Horne and Ken Singleton, provided an
>interesting debate on how to pitch inside. Singleton of course defended
>"hitters' rights" and maintained the line held by several of the comments
>in this thread (see the Derak Bell quote above). Van Horne contrasted
>Pedro's wildness outside with how Dennis Martinez used to pitch inside,
>namely below the head! There is definitely room in the game for pitching
>inside, but a few factors must be considered - compared to Gibson,
>Drysadle et al, pitchers throw way faster today
I beg to differ - have you ever heard of Sandy Koufax, Nolan Ryan in ther
70's, Tom Seaver = These guys threw as hard as anyone today....
And Don Drysdale (who threw very hard him,self) had a motto - for every
one of his teammates hit - he would hit 2 of theirs. Face it - todays
hitters are prima donnas, and the minute one pitch is close they want
to go out there and fight..... This kind of behavior was not
tolerated back in the 50's and 60's. I agree - you shouldn't throw
at a guys head, but just throwing inside is no reason to go out there
and fight. Pitching inside is part of the game..... These batters
have to learn to accept it.........
Joe Cub Fan
Jeffrey Zirker
Again, I don't think Pedro has a control problem. I mean, he's only walked *8*
battters all year... compared to 6 hit batsmen, and I think he might be throwing
at people. His reason may be up for debate, but I do think he's doing it on
purpose.
Jeff
Gary L Pearce
>
> I beg to differ - have you ever heard of Sandy Koufax, Nolan Ryan in ther
> 70's, Tom Seaver = These guys threw as hard as anyone today....
> And Don Drysdale (who threw very hard him,self) had a motto - for every
> one of his teammates hit - he would hit 2 of theirs. Face it - todays
> hitters are prima donnas, and the minute one pitch is close they want
> to go out there and fight..... This kind of behavior was not
> tolerated back in the 50's and 60's. I agree - you shouldn't throw
> at a guys head, but just throwing inside is no reason to go out there
> and fight. Pitching inside is part of the game..... These batters
> have to learn to accept it.........
>
?" Tolerated by whom? The players? The Major League establishment
(commissioner and league officials)? The 50's may have been the most violent
period in post-World War major league history. Bill James wrote an article
"The History of the Beanball" in the 1985 Abstract. In it, he writes:
But the fifties really were a rough time in baseball. Ted Klusewski really
did break a guy's arm in the process of applying a tag. There were a lot of
brawls. The Giants and Dodgers fought every time they got together, and the
number of players who got hurt in the middle of these does not suggest that
they were just milling around looking bad. In June of 1957 the Yankees had
three major on-field melees in one week, two of them triggered by hit
batsmen. And they really did throw at each other. ... There were gradual
signs that baseball was developing a problem. On September 8, 1952, a
beanball war developed between the Giants and Dodgers that led to the
suspension and fining of Leo Durocher. ...
I think the rise in notoriety of these incidents is due in large part to
ESPN and satellite transmissions that let us see EVERY ONE of these incidents
soon after it happens...in the case of Sanders vs. Martinez, literally minutes
after it transpired. Now I don't know how networks covered baseball in the
50's, but I imagine that before satellite transmission of this stuff, people
in California didn't SEE too terribly many of these Dodger/Giants brawls.
Now we see every one of these incidents on the local news, on SportsCenter,
on Baseball Tonight, on CNN Sports Tonight, on This Week in Baseball, etc, etc.
As a result, fans *SEE* more of this and conclude that it must be a new
problem. On-field fights have been around since the beginning of the game,
and were MUCH MUCH worse in the late 1800's-early 1900's which is why the
new American League in 1901 made a point of not allowing umpire intimidation,
physical abuse of opponents, vulgar conduct on the field, and pitchers
throwing at hitters....among other not-so-civilized things.
--
Gary Pearce pea...@mksol.dseg.ti.com pea...@lobby.ti.com
"The great trouble with baseball today is that most of the players are in
the game for the money that's in it -- not for the love of it, the
excitement of it, and the thrill of it." -- Ty Cobb, 1925.
John Pazniokas
: Hmmm. IMO, if more pitchers pitched like Pedro, I think we'd have
: even more slugfests. Certainly that was the case in the 50's
: and early 60's, when the number of hit batsmen reached all-time
: highs.
I have a feeling that the 50's and 60's were completely
different. As in, the HBPs following the HRs. Today, assholes like
Sanders (what's his IQ, anyway?) and Seattle OF Eric Anthony (5/4 v. RedSox)
think that pitching inside is a challenge. It isn't - it's using a part
of the plate that they are entitled to use. To wit:
-> Reggie Sanders charges Pedro Martinez after being plunked by a
1-2 pitch in the 7th inning of a perfect game. Does this show
intelligence? Does this show an awareness of the game situation? Does
this show anything but selfish idiocy?
-> In Martinez's next start, somebody else (sorry guys - I
haven't kept up w/ this thread) charges him for brushing him back. I
don't know much about Martinez, but an ML pitcher (besides maybe Mitch
Williams ;-) can hit a batter whenever he wants.
-> Eric Anthony, Seattle, is almost hit by Boston RP Paul
Quantrill's 1st(I think) offering of the game. ("Almost" means "roughly
ten feet over his head"). After being intentionally walked, Eric Anthony
charges the mound. Ummm... why would Q try to load the bases in a close
game? And if he wanted to, why DIDN'T he hit him?
-> I heard this story on the radio: Minor leagues, bottom of
ninth, two away, bases loaded, score tied. Batter HBP. You know what
happens next. If that MORON was in my system, he would land on the
sidewalk about thirty seconds later.
-> And, finally, we come to Barry Bonds. Barry slugged a HR in
today's game. His next AB: yep, a HBP. And you know what happened:
Barry glared at the pitcher, and trotted down to first. Mister Bonds may
not have a whole lot of class and professionalism off the field, but he
has an inkling about the game and realizes that this type of thing
happens. You've really got to wonder whether or not Reggie Sanders, Eric
Anthony, and all of the other schmucks who get offended by inside strikes
and brushback pitches, really know anything at all about the game. We
need footage of Don Drysdale right now.
later
--
.____________.______________.__________________________________________.
\ JPAZ - \ \ "We are ready for any unforseen event \
\ the newbie \ "Ya gotta \ that may or may not occur." \
/ with an / believe..." / "If we don't succeed, we run the risk /
/ attitude / / of failure." -Dan Quayle /
/____________/______________/--------> jp...@wpi.wpi.edu <-------_____/
John Pazniokas
: Have you ever stepped to the plate? Apparently not, with this comment.
: If you ever had a 95 MPH fastball come at your head and see your life
: flash before you, I think you might have a slightly different attitude.
: I know I didn't like it, and I only ever saw 75 MPH fastballs.
: What Martinez is doing is NOT moving batters off the plate, which is
: perfectly acceptable. He's throwing at heads. That is unacceptable.
Thing is: you're not facing 90-MPHers for a reason. The men(?) out there
are there because they have lightning-fast reflexes. Ask the older
pitchers: Bob Gibson said he never threw at someone's head SIMPLY
BECAUSE THE HEAD IS THE EASIEST PART OF THE BODY TO MOVE.
Steve Geswein, IBRC
> -> Reggie Sanders charges Pedro Martinez after being plunked by a
> 1-2 pitch in the 7th inning of a perfect game. Does this show
> intelligence? Does this show an awareness of the game situation? Does
> this show anything but selfish idiocy?
Let's look at it this way:
Someone posts criticizing a batter who responds to being knocked down by
head-high fastballs in his first two at-bats, and hit by a pitch in the
third.
Does this show an awareness of the game situation?
God, I wish I had a .WAV of the Montreal catcher saying "I don't blame
Sanders a bit" in the postgame interview.
Steve Geswein sges...@indyvax.iupui.edu
who will curb this reflex eventually
Eric Roush
>David K. Lowenthal (d...@CS.Arizona.EDU) wrote:
>
>: Have you ever stepped to the plate? Apparently not, with this comment.
>: If you ever had a 95 MPH fastball come at your head and see your life
>: flash before you, I think you might have a slightly different attitude.
>: I know I didn't like it, and I only ever saw 75 MPH fastballs.
>
>: What Martinez is doing is NOT moving batters off the plate, which is
>: perfectly acceptable. He's throwing at heads. That is unacceptable.
>
>Thing is: you're not facing 90-MPHers for a reason. The men(?) out there
>are there because they have lightning-fast reflexes. Ask the older
>pitchers: Bob Gibson said he never threw at someone's head SIMPLY
>BECAUSE THE HEAD IS THE EASIEST PART OF THE BODY TO MOVE.
Tell it to Ray Chapman, Tony Conigliaro, and Dickie Thon.
Sometimes even the best reflexes never come into play.
Jonathan Schmitt
> -> Eric Anthony, Seattle, is almost hit by Boston RP Paul
>Quantrill's 1st(I think) offering of the game. ("Almost" means "roughly
>ten feet over his head"). After being intentionally walked, Eric Anthony
>charges the mound. Ummm... why would Q try to load the bases in a close
>game? And if he wanted to, why DIDN'T he hit him?
I have to point this out. He intentional walked him, that means he had
no problems with loading the bases and facing Dan Wilson. Wilson is
batting around 150. There were two outs. He intentional walked Anthony.
I have no trouble believing Quantrill was throwing at Anthony.
> -> And, finally, we come to Barry Bonds. Barry slugged a HR in
>today's game. His next AB: yep, a HBP. And you know what happened:
>Barry glared at the pitcher, and trotted down to first. Mister Bonds may
I heard Bonds broke his arm on this one or some other one. Quantrill had
to leave the game in the other one. I have read discussion involving
suspensions of players charging the mound being as long as any injury
they cause. So in this case of Quantrill, Anthony would be automatically
gone until Quantrill comes back (How is Quantrill anyway? I have him on
my fantasy team so I am very interested to know).
For the people who support that, should the axe fall the other way?
Should the guy that plunked Bonds be suspended automatically until
Bonds is healthy. I know the pitcher was warned in this case.
The other thing that I am wondering about in the Quantrill case is
why charge after an intentional walk? The knock down pitch is history.
If it didn't piss you off enough when it happened to go out to the
mound why should it piss you off after a pitch or two of non knock down
pitches.
My other question is why don't some of these pitchers run. I know it
looks weinie but by standing there you are giving some guy (who is
probably bigger then you) a sixty foot running head start to
build up a bunch of momentum to tackle you with. So why do these
idiots stand there to be tackling dummies?
Just some random thoughts.
ken emery
John C. Davenport <jc...@darwin.clas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>More guys are getting drilled now than in the days of Marichal,
>Gibson, Drysdale, and Maglie. More.
>HBP were higher in the wild 1890s. They have been constantly kept as
>an official statistic since 1916. Since 1916, the ALs all-time record
>high was set in 1922, and tied in 1993: 0.56 per game. The NLs alltime
>high was set in 1916, and tied in 1993: 0.50 per game. The combination
>of the two was the highest ever since records were kept. We've got a
>problem here, people.
What has been the trend in the last 10 to 15 years as far
as HBP/game? Has it been going up steadily? During the '60's
Mays, Aaron, Banks, et all would hit the dirt on inside pitches.
It looks to me like batters are moving closer to the plate and
refusing to back down (this thinking is courtesy of Don Baylor
who knew how to take a HBP).
So what do you all think?
>>Perhaps this guy likes 1890's baseball, where anything short of
>>pulling a gun on the field went. I don't.
>Neither do I. Why doesn't the commissioner DO something?
Commissioner?! what's that? I think it went the way of bloomers.
>Oh, yeah. Right.
bye,
ken emery
Greg Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life Spira
>In <2q9g6p$o...@bigboote.WPI.EDU> jp...@wpi.edu (John Pazniokas) writes:
>> -> Eric Anthony, Seattle, is almost hit by Boston RP Paul
>>Quantrill's 1st(I think) offering of the game. ("Almost" means "roughly
>>ten feet over his head"). After being intentionally walked, Eric Anthony
>>charges the mound. Ummm... why would Q try to load the bases in a close
>>game? And if he wanted to, why DIDN'T he hit him?
>I have to point this out. He intentional walked him, that means he had
>no problems with loading the bases and facing Dan Wilson. Wilson is
>batting around 150. There were two outs. He intentional walked Anthony.
>I have no trouble believing Quantrill was throwing at Anthony.
The ball, I would point out, was over home plate. Quite high, but still
over the plate.
Greg
David Grabiner
> Neither do I. Why doesn't the commissioner DO something?
What needs to be done is the creation of some penalty other than
ejection. In hockey, you can be put into the penalty box for two
minutes. In football, you can be penalized fifteen yards. In
basketball, you can be charged with a technical foul, giving a free
throw to the other team.
But baseball has no penalty except ejection. Players and managers who
delay the game by arguing umpires' calls either stay in or are thrown
out; they could be penalized with a ball or strike. A batter who
charges the mound could lose the benefit of the HBP.
--
David Grabiner, grab...@zariski.harvard.edu
"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.
David M. Nieporent
>In article <Cp6u4...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, John C. Davenport writes:
>
>> Neither do I. Why doesn't the commissioner DO something?
>
>What needs to be done is the creation of some penalty other than
>ejection. In hockey, you can be put into the penalty box for two
>minutes. In football, you can be penalized fifteen yards. In
>basketball, you can be charged with a technical foul, giving a free
>throw to the other team.
of a free throw -- hitting off a batting tee? Or maybe Dave "the human
batting tee" Johnson?
Or you could force the team to play with just 8 players -- and when the
ejected batters turn in the lineup comes up, it's an auto-out.
>But baseball has no penalty except ejection. Players and managers who
>delay the game by arguing umpires' calls either stay in or are thrown
>out; they could be penalized with a ball or strike. A batter who
>charges the mound could lose the benefit of the HBP.
When the suspension gets high enough that it hurts the team (and the player's)
year-end totals), they'll think twice.
Plus, tie fines to the minimum salary. When players made $5000 a year, a
$100 fine might have been fine. Now, try a $10,000 fine.
--
David M. Nieporent
Niep...@delphi.com
DNiep...@aol.com
Send Email to DNiep...@aol.com if you want me to see it
Orioles 1994: MVP - Palmeiro, RotY - Hammonds, Cy - Mussina
Rob Costain
>
>What has been the trend in the last 10 to 15 years as far
>as HBP/game? Has it been going up steadily? During the '60's
>Mays, Aaron, Banks, et all would hit the dirt on inside pitches.
>It looks to me like batters are moving closer to the plate and
>refusing to back down (this thinking is courtesy of Don Baylor
>who knew how to take a HBP).
>
>ken emery
I tend to agree. Batters seem to crowd the plate more and more to make the
strike zone as small as possible. Pitching inside is the only way that the
pitcher can get himself some breathing room.
I think the problem with Martinez is more of a control problem than one of
intentionally hitting batters. Expos pitching coach Joe Kerrigan has had
Martinez pitch to cardboard manniquins before his last couple of starts to
increase his control. I think you'll probably still see him pitch inside,
though.
_______________________________________________________________
| Rob Costain | rjc...@vax2.concordia.ca |
| M.A. Student | rj_...@pavo.concordia.ca |
| Educational Technology Programme | 75020...@compuserve.com |
| Concordia University | |
| Montreal, Quebec, CANADA | |
|__________________________________|____________________________|
!!!!Go 'Spos!!!!
John C. Davenport
ken emery <k...@remarque.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>In article <Cp6u4...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
>John C. Davenport <jc...@darwin.clas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>>More guys are getting drilled now than in the days of Marichal,
>>Gibson, Drysdale, and Maglie. More.
>
>as HBP/game? Has it been going up steadily? During the '60's
>Mays, Aaron, Banks, et all would hit the dirt on inside pitches.
>It looks to me like batters are moving closer to the plate and
>refusing to back down (this thinking is courtesy of Don Baylor
>who knew how to take a HBP).
>
Since 1975, the trend looks like this: (numbers are HBP/game, *100 on
the vertical, year across the top; a=american, n=national)
75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93
56 a
54
52 a
50 n
a
48
a
46
a
44 a
a a
42
a a n
40
a a a
38 n n n
a a a a
36 n n
a
34 n n n
a n
32 n n
n
30 n
n n
28
26 n n
Numbers were dropping slowly through the 70s; the late 60s saw peaks
of about 47 in both leagues. During the DH era, HBP have always been
higher in the AL. Both leagues saw a high in 1988, followed by a dip
in 1989. Both leagues have increased every year since then, with very
fast rises in the AL in 1992 and 1993 (up 19% in two years), and in
the NL in 1993 (up 22% in one year, up over 50% since 1989).
According to numbers flashed by ESPN over the weekend, HBP in both
leagues are up between 5 and 10% in both leagues over last year, which
were the highest since the early 1920s.
The 1975-84 numbers were taken from Bill James' 1985 Abstract (the
blue one), and his essay on the beanball. HBP got a lot of press in
the 1984, especially in the NL West: that was the year Thon got hit,
and when the Padres and Braves had the wild melee in which several
fans came onto the field and got involved in the fight. As he noted,
it was odd that so much ink was devoted to the topic, because at the
time hit batsmen were at a relative low; he wondered if it was "the
noise a trend makes when it makes a left-hand turn". He appears to
have gotten that one right; last year's numbers, combined, are more
than 60% higher than when he wrote. And still getting worse.
Sandra Vigil
>In <2q9g6p$o...@bigboote.WPI.EDU> jp...@wpi.edu (John Pazniokas) writes:
>> -> Eric Anthony, Seattle, is almost hit by Boston RP Paul
>>Quantrill's 1st(I think) offering of the game. ("Almost" means "roughly
>>ten feet over his head"). After being intentionally walked, Eric Anthony
>>charges the mound. Ummm... why would Q try to load the bases in a close
>>game? And if he wanted to, why DIDN'T he hit him?
>I have to point this out. He intentional walked him, that means he had
>no problems with loading the bases and facing Dan Wilson. Wilson is
>batting around 150. There were two outs. He intentional walked Anthony.
>I have no trouble believing Quantrill was throwing at Anthony.
>The other thing that I am wondering about in the Quantrill case is
>why charge after an intentional walk? The knock down pitch is history.
>If it didn't piss you off enough when it happened to go out to the
>mound why should it piss you off after a pitch or two of non knock down
>pitches.
I would in no way defend the charge by Anthony. I would,
however, correct the facts:
1. Frank Viola threw the pitch that sailed *behind* Anthony and
in the process, hurt his arm. He immediatly tried to call
timeout but he runners were in motion. At the time call, he
left the field and is now on the DL.
2. Quantill came in to take over for Viola and if memory
serves, may have thrown a couple of strikes to Anthony before
throwing a high, tight fastball. They decided to intentionally
walk him on the ensuing full count (I may be wrong. The strikes
may have been Violas and Quantrills first pitch may have been the
brushback.
Anthony, on his way to first turned to Quantrill to ask what was
up with the pitch (seriously, his words) and not liking the
answer, he suddenly turned stupid and the rest is history.
/S
--
"It's good, you know, when you got a * *
woman who is a friend of your mind." Sandra Vigil
- Beloved vi...@esca.com
Toni Morrison * *