When was baseball truly integrated?
guanxi
broke the color line -- but when was baseball truly integrated? When
can we say that, substantially, the number of non-white players in the
majors was based on ability and not skin color.
Two points:
* 1947 obviously isn't the answer. There was one non-white player
in the league.
* Discrimination continued, and probably continues, on some level
for quite some time. I'm *not* asking, 'when was everything perfect';
I'm asking, when could you say it made very little difference in the
number of non-white players in MLB?
SavoyBG
>When
>can we say that, substantially, the number of non-white players in the
>majors was based on ability and not skin color.
I would guess sometime in the 1970's.
Bruce Grossberg
Perry Sailor
"SavoyBG" <sav...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030226142631...@mb-dd.aol.com...
That would be my guess, too. Jim Bouton said in Ball Four (written 1969)
something to the effect that if you were a fringe player it definitely
helped to be white. I suspect that was true, but by 10 years later I
suspect it wasn't. I can't back this up with any data, it's just an
impression.
Perry
Mosey's Sequence
Can we ask Dave Stewart and Marge Schott?
John Mosey |..X..|....|Brew-o-meter
Exalted Grand Puba: http://www.fantasybaseballnews.com/
"You reward your fans, you don't put the money in your pockets like 90 percent
of the rest of the owners may do." - George Steinbrenner
Steve Grant
news:6d7a61c9.03022...@posting.google.com...
This suggests one of my favorite sports trivia questions. The 1969 Kansas
City Chiefs (who won Super Bowl IV in 1970) and the 1979 Pittsburgh Pirates
each won their respective championship. What else did they have in common?
(Gurl jrer rnpu gur svefg grnz va gurve erfcrpgvir fcbegf gb unir n znwbevgl
bs abajuvgr cynlref.)
MadDog
MadDog
"guanxi" <guan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6d7a61c9.03022...@posting.google.com...
Ron Matthews
> 1947 we all know well -- the year Jackie Robinson and Branch Rickey
> broke the color line -- but when was baseball truly integrated? When
> can we say that, substantially, the number of non-white players in the
> majors was based on ability and not skin color.
> Two points:
> * 1947 obviously isn't the answer. There was one non-white player
> in the league.
Well, no, we have to assume that the white players had the most
ability so as not to compromise our ranked lists of all-time
greats. We can't very well talk about Cobb, Young, and the rest
as being "all time greats" if we can't be certain that they were
the best players of their own time.
After all, the integrity of the data is more important than any
real truth about the matter.
Data. Ranked lists. Hmm, good.
cordially, as always,
rm
Cameron Laird
Steve Grant <ACE...@concentric.net> wrote:
.
.
.
>This suggests one of my favorite sports trivia questions. The 1969 Kansas
>City Chiefs (who won Super Bowl IV in 1970) and the 1979 Pittsburgh Pirates
>each won their respective championship. What else did they have in common?
.
.
Interesting! I would have guessed even later for football.
In that same year, 1969, such top-twenty college teams as
Texas, Arkansas, Florida, Tennessee, Louisiana State, and
Mississippi had ZERO black players, if memory serves correctly.
--
Cameron Laird <Cam...@Lairds.com>
Business: http://www.Phaseit.net
Personal: http://phaseit.net/claird/home.html
Perry Sailor
"Cameron Laird" <cla...@lairds.com> wrote in message
news:v5qjv0q...@corp.supernews.com...
> In article <b3jcjc$a...@dispatch.concentric.net>,
> Steve Grant <ACE...@concentric.net> wrote:
> .
> .
> .
> >This suggests one of my favorite sports trivia questions. The 1969
Kansas
> >City Chiefs (who won Super Bowl IV in 1970) and the 1979 Pittsburgh
Pirates
> >each won their respective championship. What else did they have in
common?
> .
> .
> .
> Interesting! I would have guessed even later for football.
> In that same year, 1969, such top-twenty college teams as
> Texas, Arkansas, Florida, Tennessee, Louisiana State, and
> Mississippi had ZERO black players, if memory serves correctly.
A couple of days ago at Barnes and Noble I happened to see a book about the
1969 "Game of the Century" showdown between Texas and Arkansas for the
national championship. Sure enough, the team photos in the book showed a
total of zero black players. IIRC, the Southwest Conference had had its
first black player only a year or two earlier, SMU's Jerry Levias. (God,
think of the important stuff I could remember if I didn't have crap like
that floating around in my brain.)
Perry
Gerry Myerson
"MadDog" <bravesfan18@hotmaildotcom> wrote:
> Wasn't it 1959 when the Red Sox finally signed a black player?
It is true that the Red Sox were the last team to field
a black player, and that that happened in 1959. But it's
not clear that that's a good answer to the question,
"When was baseball truly integrated?" I take the question
to mean something like, when did most teams have lots of
black players, even on their benches and in their bullpens.
That seems to have waited until sometime in the 1970s.
--
Gerry Myerson (ge...@mpce.mq.edi.ai) (i -> u for email)
Regina Litman
I just switched from Netscape 4.75 to Netscape 7. Netscape 4.75 had a
feature whereby one could right-click (left-click for southpaws) on the
message, and it would immediately translate to ROT-13. The feature's
been removed from Netscape 7. I just painstakingly translated it myself.
I'm going to put in several carriage returns and then spill the beans
with the answer.
They were each the first team in their respective sports to have a
majority of nonwhite players.
Regina Litman
> In article <b3jcjc$a...@dispatch.concentric.net>,
> "Steve Grant" <ACE...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>
>>news:6d7a61c9.03022...@posting.google.com...
>>
>>>1947 we all know well -- the year Jackie Robinson and Branch Rickey
>>>broke the color line -- but when was baseball truly integrated?
>>>
>>>in the league.
>>
>
>>City Chiefs (who won Super Bowl IV in 1970) and the 1979 Pittsburgh Pirates
>>each won their respective championship. What else did they have in common?
>>
>>(Gurl jrer rnpu gur svefg grnz va gurve erfcrpgvir fcbegf gb unir n znwbevgl
>>bs abajuvgr cynlref.)
>
>
>
> NU UN, IRQQL VAGRERFGVAT. TBBQ CBVAG. VA ERFCBAFR GB GUR BEVTVANY CBFGRE
> V'Q FNL (ABG GELVAT GB OR SHAAL) FBZRGVZR VA GUR '90F NF GUNG'F JURA
> ZBER ZVABEVGVRF SVANYYL JRER NYYBJRQ GB OR PYBFREF.
For the benefit of those using Netscape 7 (with no apparent ROT-13
converter), I'll put in some blank lines and then spill the beans of
what has been said.
(Pardon my caps.)
AH HA, VEDDY INTERESTING. GOOD POINT. IN RESPONSE TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER
I'D SAY (NOT TRYING TO BE FUNNY) SOMETIME IN THE '90S AS THAT'S WHEN
MORE MINORITIES FINALLY WERE ALLOWED TO BE CLOSERS.
C Nick Beaudrot
wrote:
: In article <b3jcjc$a...@dispatch.concentric.net>,
: Steve Grant <ACE...@concentric.net> wrote:
: .
: .
: .
: >This suggests one of my favorite sports trivia questions. The 1969 Kansas
: >City Chiefs (who won Super Bowl IV in 1970) and the 1979 Pittsburgh Pirates
: >each won their respective championship. What else did they have in common?
: .
: .
: .
: Interesting! I would have guessed even later for football.
: In that same year, 1969, such top-twenty college teams as
: Texas, Arkansas, Florida, Tennessee, Louisiana State, and
: Mississippi had ZERO black players, if memory serves correctly.
Isn't that a function of those schools not accepting black students,
more than football being integrated?
Cheers,
Nick
--
bomb Marx president encryption revolution Pat Buchanan unabomber occult
there are better ways to catch the bad guys than snooping tons of email
overthrow 2600 secret service Cornell West extermination satan
David Marasco
> Wasn't it 1959 when the Red Sox finally signed a black player?
>
>
I made a timeline about this once:
http://www.thediamondangle.com/marasco/negleg/timeline.html
It's amazing how much happened between the first and the last...
David Marasco
http://www.thediamondangle.com
Eric Opperman
That's not important? :)
(Then again, I guess knowing random trivia like that is more important
for broadcasters than for most people) :)
--
Thanks for your time,
Eric Opperman
"Daddy, when did you get good?" -- Alexa Hyzdu, daughter of Pirates' OF
Adam Hyzdu
Gerry Myerson
da...@thediamondangle.com (David Marasco) wrote:
> I made a timeline about this once:
> http://www.thediamondangle.com/marasco/negleg/timeline.html
From which one can derive much amusement if one makes believe
there's some cause and effect operating here. E.g.,
1949
Jul 8 The New York Giants integrate with Hank Thompson.
Aug 29 Soviets detonate an atomic device.
1950
Apr 18 The Boston Braves integrate with Sam Jethroe.
Jun 25 North Korea invades South Korea.
1951
Apr 11 Truman fires MacArthur.
May 1 The Chicago White Sox integrate with Minnie Minoso.
1953
Jul 27 Korean War ends.
Sep 13 The Philadelphia Athletics integrate with Bob Trice.
1954
Apr 17 The Cincinnati Reds integrate with Nino Escalera.
May 7 French surrender to Vietnamese at Dien Bien Phu.
1955
Apr 14 The New York Yankees integrate with Elston Howard.
Jul 18 Disneyland opens.
1958
Jan 31 Explorer I, fist US satellite, launched.
Jun 6 The Detroit Tigers integrate with Ozzie Virgil.
1959
Feb 3 Buddy Holly, Richie Valens and the Big Bopper die in plane crash.
Jul 21 The Boston Red Sox integrate with Pumpsie Green.
Not meaning to make fun of David's effort, which is well worth a look.
guanxi
> City Chiefs (who won Super Bowl IV in 1970) and the 1979 Pittsburgh Pirates
> each won their respective championship. What else did they have in common?
>
> (Gurl jrer rnpu gur svefg grnz va gurve erfcrpgvir fcbegf gb unir n znwbevgl
> bs abajuvgr cynlref.)
The first *punzcvbaf* or the first *grnzf* with that distinction?
Brian Lerner
news:b3jcjc$a...@dispatch.concentric.net...
<snip>
> (Gurl jrer rnpu gur svefg grnz va gurve erfcrpgvir fcbegf gb unir n
znwbevgl
> bs abajuvgr cynlref.)
Since several people grappled with the ROT 13 translation, here's a handy
link:
http://andrewu.co.uk/tools/rot13/
Steve Grant
The first grnzf.
guanxi
> feature whereby one could right-click (left-click for southpaws) on the
> message, and it would immediately translate to ROT-13. The feature's
> been removed from Netscape 7. I just painstakingly translated it myself.
> I'm going to put in several carriage returns and then spill the beans
> with the answer.
Try
http://www.pinkroom.biz/owl/minirot13/
or
http://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/pagedata.html
(bottom of page)
Your milage may vary; use at your own risk; etc. The first works
decently with Mozilla 1.3b. I use many other bookmarklets myself and
they work great.
Colin Campbell
<ge...@mpce.mq.edi.ai.i2u4email> wrote:
Somebody (Frank Robinson?) once complained that a black rookie needed a
minor-league batting average 30 points higher than a white rookie to have
a chance at making the show. Maybe baseball became truly integrated when
those kind of numbers evened out.
--
Colin Campbell
Matt Deres
Well, that's really two different questions. MLB as a whole has gotten a
lot better in the last decade or so with regards to hiring minority managers
and front office personnel, so I have to say that the answer to *that*
question is around 1995 or so. Keep in mind that Cito Gaston was only the
fourth (iirc) black manager when he signed on in 1989 and the first black
man to manage a team to a World Series win a few years later, whereas
Baker's appearance in last year's WS was a non-event (as far I noticed).
In terms of when judgement of players' ability wasn't based on race, I'd
have to agree with other posters that the late 70s were probably the time,
but that probably fluctuated from team to team (and maybe still does).
Matt
Regina Litman
Thanks for the information. After I posted here last night, I researched
the situation and came across the Pinkroom site. It seems to be for the
Mozilla brand, but I think this is a relative of Netscape, so maybe it
will work. I'll experiment this coming weekend, especially if I'm
snowbound again.
Cameron Laird
C Nick Beaudrot <n...@alumni.brown.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 23:38:08 -0000, Cameron Laird <cla...@lairds.com>
>wrote:
>: In article <b3jcjc$a...@dispatch.concentric.net>,
>: Steve Grant <ACE...@concentric.net> wrote:
>: .
>: .
>: .
>: >This suggests one of my favorite sports trivia questions. The 1969 Kansas
>: >City Chiefs (who won Super Bowl IV in 1970) and the 1979 Pittsburgh Pirates
>: >each won their respective championship. What else did they have in common?
>: .
>: .
>: .
>: Interesting! I would have guessed even later for football.
>: In that same year, 1969, such top-twenty college teams as
>: Texas, Arkansas, Florida, Tennessee, Louisiana State, and
>: Mississippi had ZERO black players, if memory serves correctly.
>
>Isn't that a function of those schools not accepting black students,
>more than football being integrated?
.
.
Both, I s'pose; I was thinking of it more from the other
end, that somehow Texas managed to be the best team in
the country despites its exclusionism. That strikes me
as remarkable.
King Tut
King Tut is about to school you with the facts. Jackie Robinson
was not the first black player in major league baseball. A
couple of blacks actually played in the 19th century. The
owners then got together and made the "understood agreement"
that teams would not accept blacks anymore. Much later....
1947 rolled around and Jackie Robinson broke the "color
barrier". But he was not the first black to play big league
baseball. Now thank the boy King for skoolling you.
Bow down to the King!
C Nick Beaudrot
<ge...@mpce.mq.edi.ai.i2u4email> wrote:
: In article <e1e801b7.03022...@posting.google.com>,
: da...@thediamondangle.com (David Marasco) wrote:
:
: > I made a timeline about this once:
: > http://www.thediamondangle.com/marasco/negleg/timeline.html
:
: From which one can derive much amusement if one makes believe
: there's some cause and effect operating here. E.g.,
: Apr 14 The New York Yankees integrate with Elston Howard.
: Jul 18 Disneyland opens.
"Elston Howard, you just integrated the New York Yankees. What are you
going to do next?"
C Nick Beaudrot
: Wasn't it 1959 when the Red Sox finally signed a black player?
Why hasn't the 1980s Ted Koppel/Dodgers front office person interview
made it into this discussion?
I'm going to go with "whenever more than 40% of closers were non-white"
as the date for baseballs true integration. That or maybe 2050. But then
I probably have a strict definition of integration.
Regina Litman
Thanks for this information. I posted about this in a Netscape newsgroup
and got referred to the Pinkroom site, too. I downloaded it tonight, and
it is working for me. I promise not to spoil things for everyone else as
long as this keeps working.
Dale Hicks
says...
> On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 17:11:06 -0500, MadDog <bravesfan18@hotmaildotcom> wrote:
> : Wasn't it 1959 when the Red Sox finally signed a black player?
>
> Why hasn't the 1980s Ted Koppel/Dodgers front office person interview
> made it into this discussion?
>
> I'm going to go with "whenever more than 40% of closers were non-white"
> as the date for baseballs true integration. That or maybe 2050. But then
> I probably have a strict definition of integration.
54% of all MLB pitchers with 10 saves or more last season were non-white.
52% of all MLB pitchers with 20 saves or more last season were non-white.
Why 40%? Is that the current breakdown of MLB as a whole?
--
Cranial Crusader dgh 1138 at bell south point net
David Marasco
Welcome back Tut! You've been missed. Any new bowlers on the
horizion? Yes, you are correct, Fleet Walker was major league back in
the 1800s. But, of course, the original poster made no claim to JR
being the first...
David Marasco
http://www.thediamondangle.com
Tom MacIntyre
wrote:
What is the ratio in the pool of the world's population that MLB draws
from? When that was met, wouldn't that be the point where integration
was reached? It has probably been exceeded, and greatly so.
Tom
Matt Deres
"Tom MacIntyre" <tom__ma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tpd16vsq2jd1gijof...@4ax.com...
> What is the ratio in the pool of the world's population that MLB draws
> from? When that was met, wouldn't that be the point where integration
> was reached? It has probably been exceeded, and greatly so.
That would vary from group to group and you'd also have to deal with how
important baseball is to the "minority" in question. To illustrate it on a
small scale, there have been 340 players born in the DR, and 206 born in PR,
but only three from Jamaica. The reason probably has a lot to do with how
popular baseball is on those three particular islands, but if Jamaicans were
green, would we consider baseball poorly integrated because there have been
only three? Is baseball poorly integrated because there have been so few
players of native Chinese, Indian, or Portuguese descent?
Matt
Mosey's Sequence
like:
>
>guan...@yahoo.com (guanxi) wrote in message
>news:<6d7a61c9.03022...@posting.google.com>...
>> 1947 we all know well -- the year Jackie Robinson and
>> Branch Rickey broke the color line -- but when was baseball
>> truly integrated? When can we say that, substantially, the
>> number of non-white players in the majors was based on
>> ability and not skin color.
>>
>> Two points:
>>
>> * 1947 obviously isn't the answer. There was one
>> non-white player in the league.
>>
>> * Discrimination continued, and probably continues,
>> on some level for quite some time. I'm *not* asking,
>> 'when was everything perfect'; I'm asking, when could
>> you say it made very little difference in the
>> number of non-white players in MLB?
>
>
>King Tut is about to school you with the facts. Jackie Robinson
>was not the first black player in major league baseball.
No one said he was.
A
>couple of blacks actually played in the 19th century.
Which technically isn't "Major league", but whatever.
That's great, someone picked up a book during studyhall.
John Mosey |..X..|....|Brew-o-meter
Exalted Grand Puba: http://www.fantasybaseballnews.com/
"You reward your fans, you don't put the money in your pockets like 90 percent
of the rest of the owners may do." - George Steinbrenner
Mischa Gelman
Mosey's Sequence wrote:
> > A couple of blacks actually played in the 19th century.
>
> Which technically isn't "Major league", but whatever.
Eh? Since when was the 1884 AA not considered a major league?
--
We can have a democratic society or we can have concentrated wealth in the hands of
a few. We cannot have both. - Louis Brandeis
Roger Moore
> A
>>couple of blacks actually played in the 19th century.
>Which technically isn't "Major league", but whatever.
Yes it is. The National League dates back to 1876, and it most certainly
was a major league. The old American Association (where Fleet Walker
played) was also considered a major league, and had a championship series
against the NL champ. Sure sounds major league to me.
--
Roger Moore | Master of Meaningless Trivia | (r...@alumni.caltech.edu)
I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the
people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by
violent and sudden usurpations. -- James Madison
King Tut
>
> >> 1947 we all know well -- the year Jackie Robinson and
> >> Branch Rickey broke the color line -- but when was baseball
> >> truly integrated? When can we say that, substantially, the
> >> number of non-white players in the majors was based on
> >> ability and not skin color.
> >>
> >> Two points:
> >>
> >> * 1947 obviously isn't the answer. There was one
> >> non-white player in the league.
> >>
> >> * Discrimination continued, and probably continues,
> >> on some level for quite some time. I'm *not* asking,
> >> 'when was everything perfect'; I'm asking, when could
> >> you say it made very little difference in the
> >> number of non-white players in MLB?
> >
> >
> >King Tut is about to school you with the facts. Jackie Robinson
> >was not the first black player in major league baseball.
>
> No one said he was.
>
> > A couple of blacks actually played in the 19th century.
>
> Which technically isn't "Major league", but whatever.
King Tut usually would expose your foolishness, but I
see you have done it yourself, Backstreet Mose-boy. I
never expected a youngster like you to have the boy
King's knowledge about major league baseball anyway.
guanxi
> 54% of all MLB pitchers with 10 saves or more last season were non-white.
> 52% of all MLB pitchers with 20 saves or more last season were non-white.
>
Dale -
Where did you get the data? I'm not doubting it, but actual data
would be very useful for answering all these questions.
Dale Hicks
guan...@yahoo.com says...
I went to ESPN's stats page, sorted by saves, then did a manual count.
There were no real surprises, as people with a hispanic surname generally
couldn't pass, at least not to my eyes.
mike_schmidt
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
This is what I was looking for in this thread...sort of.
How about after the "agreement", was Robinson truly the
first black player in the 20th century?
There were Latino players before WWII who were prominent in the
game. Many of them had to be non-White and I would bet some were
black just as Vladimir Guerrero is black, Jose Contreras is black,
Miguel Tejada is black etc.
The "color line" is nothing but a propaganda construct.
It never existed.
- - -------
What happens to someone who speaks out about "The Philanos" and their owner
Jackboot Jim Buck Jr?
http://jackboot.jim.web1000.com
- - --------
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Date: Mon Mar 3 07:13:41 2003 GMT
From: mike_s...@nym.alias.net
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Dan Szymborski
mike_s...@nym.alias.net says...
>
>
> This is what I was looking for in this thread...sort of.
>
> How about after the "agreement", was Robinson truly the
> first black player in the 20th century?
>
> There were Latino players before WWII who were prominent in the
> game. Many of them had to be non-White and I would bet some were
> black just as Vladimir Guerrero is black, Jose Contreras is black,
> Miguel Tejada is black etc.
>
> The "color line" is nothing but a propaganda construct.
It strikes me that nobody bothered to inform you and your white
supremacist buddies of this, then. If there was no color line, why would
your ilkkk send death threats to someone trying to break it?
--
Dan Szymborski
d...@baseballprimer.com
"A critic who refuses to attack what is bad is not a whole-hearted
supporter of what is good."
-Robert Schumann
mike_schmidt
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
At the time this fraudulent "color line" was being promoted
radio was as big a communication medium as television, and
for the lower economic strata of the population radio was _the_
form of communication. Telephone service did not yet exist
in large areas of rural America and many people not in areas
considered rural had only shared phone service.
You could easily lie through omission as to the racial
background of baseball players. Today this is impossible.
My only way of disputing the lie of the "color line" back then
would be to write and print up pamphlets, and then distribute
them myself. It would take tens of thousands of Americans
spending a lot of money and much more of their time just to
correct this one lie, and surly there were more important things
on the minds of most of those who might even think about
doing such a thing (the number of such people is tragically
small) given that they were being brainwashed about a
nuclear attack from the Soviet Union.
Even today the lies of omission are wrecking havoc with our
perception of what is going on around us. If I say to you
"Who is the leader of the Iraqi opposition?" chances are very
good that you cannot give me his name without doing some
hard searching on the Internet. However, most would
acknowledge that they know what this man I'm thinking of
looks like because he has been profiled on American television
numerous times. I have seen him at least three times on
"60 Minutes" alone.
What I did not know about this guy until I downloaded a BBC
documentary from alt.binaries.multimedia called "After Saddam",
is that this guy is a bank robber! Yes, I kid you not, he had an
international warrant out on him for defrauding banks in Jordon
of many millions of dollars, a warrant that was rescinded
- - -according to a former US Ambassador to Saudi Arabia
(James Akins)- through pressure by the American government.
The BBC program is called "Correspondent".
James Akins called him a "charlatan" and a "criminal" with
"no local support" in Iraq.
I have never heard nor read any reference to this individual
being a bank robber, and neither have you, though we should
all know that this is common knowledge among those who have
reported on this crook, whether on "60 Minutes" or in the
New York Times.
Getting back to "race" as an issue, if I say to you "Has a
White man ever been executed for killing a black man?", most
Americans would answer "no". As recently as that bullshit
incident in Jasper Texas (at least several dozen White people
have been horrifically murdered by blacks since then and you
have never been told about it [nationally]) Americans have
been led to believe that no White man has ever been executed
for killing a black. Those who write this garbage often exhibit a
grand knowledge of "race issues" in America from the 1950's
to the present, so much so do they appear well versed in this
"history" that it is impossible for them not to know that KKK
member Henry Hays was executed for the lynching of a black.
How could they not know when the lynching took place in 1981
and Henry Hays was executed in June of 1997?
I didn't know this until I watched a documentary about the
"Ku Klux Klan" on the "History Channel" that was uploaded to
the same NG. Afterwards I did a web search on Henry Hays
and discovered that he was not even the first White man to
be executed in Alabama for a *lynching*. That happened way
back in _1913_!!!
Ask baseball fans at random "Who was the first non-White
player in the big leagues" and at least 999 out of every
thousand will answer "Jackie Robinson".
Ask Americans at random whether any White man has ever been
executed for killing a black man and it's likely that more than
90% would reply "no".
Ask Americans whether someone in the KKK has ever been
executed for lynching a black man and it's likely that almost
100% would reply "no".
- - -------
What happens to someone who speaks out about "The Philanos" and their owner
Jackboot Jim Buck Jr?
http://jackboot.jim.web1000.com
- - --------
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~~~
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Date: Wed Mar 5 05:11:20 2003 GMT
From: mike_s...@nym.alias.net
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