Our snowboarding misadventure at Seven Springs
Joe Ramirez
that generated much discussion and many helpful contributions from group
members. To recap, I'm 42, my son is 14, and neither of us had ever
snowboarded before. We decided to give the sport a shot at the Seven Springs
resort near us in Pennsylvania. I thought the group might be interested in
learning how our first day went. Those with a low tolerance for tedium may
wish to stop reading now.
What went right:
*After reading about how to dress for the slopes, we bought long underwear,
fleece, goggles, snowboarding gloves, etc. We were quite warm today.
*Our rental boots & boards used step-in bindings, which turned out to be
invaluable -- not just for getting into the bindings, but also for getting
out of them. I often found that the only way to get from one place to
another on the hill was to pick up the board and walk.
*The snow-covered trees in the mountains southeast of Pittsburgh were very
pretty.
What went wrong: Just about everything else.
Actually, our first day of snowboarding was supposed to have been last
Sunday, but my son got sick and we had to postpone the trip for a week. Too
bad, because last week was consistently cold, and I think the snow was in
better shape (though mostly machine-made). This week was very cold up until
yesterday, when the temperature suddenly rose, and it rained for a while.
Then it turned colder again. The result was a wetter, icier environment.
The day got off to a comic start this morning as I was viewing the Seven
Springs snow report on my notebook computer. I walked across the room to
show it to my wife, then returned to my seat, still staring at the screen.
Unfortunately, the screen was not transparent, so I did not see the footrest
sticking out from the couch, which I tripped over magnificently. I banged
and scraped my foot, shin and knee, though the computer happily survived.
This turned out to be my worst fall of the day, though I'm not sure I can
legitimately claim it as snowboard-related.
At the beginning of the drive to Seven Springs, we were descending a steep
hill in our area that turned out to be ice-covered and unsalted. The car
spun around several times before ending up in a grassy field on the side of
the road. Luckily, we didn't hit anything, so we were able to pull back onto
the road, gingerly crawl down the rest of the hill, and resume the trip. But
the near-accident turned out to be a bad omen.
Seven Springs has a beginner package for $65 that includes boots and board
rental, a 90-minute group lesson, and a limited access lift ticket. (The
package is cheaper for skiers, because the ski rental costs less. Why is
that?) We purchased two of these packages for a total of $130. We never even
got near a lift today, so I guess we lost money on that part of the deal.
I had thought that equipment selection and use would be part of the lesson,
but it wasn't. A guy just handed us boots after learning our shoe sizes.
There was no effort to ensure a truly good fit, or to explain how all the
various fasteners worked. I had to keep going back to the rental desk to ask
questions. After we got one of my son's boots on and fastened, I noticed
that the other one was missing a strap, so we had to start again with a new
pair. My own boots were size 11. I suppose that they fit me adequately after
a lot of tugging on the laces, but I think that the model was probably too
wide to start with. My heels felt a bit loose, and there was a certain
Frankenstein's monster quality to my stomping.
After all the boots were tied, I happened to look down at my hand and notice
that the skin was shredded on two fingers from all the lace pulling. The
rental clerk responded vacantly when I asked where first aid was, so I just
wandered around until I thought of trying the childcare area. Sure enough,
the supervisor there had a whole box of first aid supplies, so I was able to
find a couple of bandages for my fingers.
My son and I were given the same model of snowboard (Rossignol), though his
was a little longer than mine. That struck me as odd, since we are within
.25" to .5" in height (he is tall for a 14-year-old -- about six feet), but
I outweigh him by 40-50 pounds. When we finally got out on the slope, I
discovered that the binding for my front (left) foot was almost
perpendicular to the major axis of the board, which turned out to be
inconvenient for me. There was so much angle to the foot placement that it
hurt to twist my left knee when I had to scoot with the left foot on the
board and the right foot pushing. Also, I keep my balance much better when I
can turn my left foot more toward to the direction in which I'm heading. It
felt awkward to have it pointing to the side. Our instructor said it was
possible to rotate the binding on the board, but I tried it on the hill and
it didn't budge.
The group lesson itself turned out to be of little use. There were about
five groups of eight for the 2:00 p.m. snowboarding beginners' lesson, and
probably as many for the skiing lesson, so if you pictured the slope as very
crowded, you'd be right. I was the only adult in our group of eight. The
instructor went through a series of lessons in a set order, and from my
perspective it didn't seem to make much difference whether the students
mastered a step or not before the next came along. Stand on the board | Push
the board | Slide with both feet on the board, but only one in the bindings
| Toeside turn | Heelside turn | Try both feet in the bindings | Now try
linking turns. I wasn't close to being able to turn effectively -- in fact,
I really couldn't get the board on edge at all -- when we were supposed to
try linking turns. I'd say that of the eight people in the group, perhaps
two (both little kids -- this seems to be a relatively bad sport for taller
folks to learn) could do a half-decent single turn. Everyone else would
slide down the hill a bit, make some kind of effort, perhaps turn a little,
then flop over in a heap. This was about one hour into the lesson. At this
point my son, who was very far from enjoying himself, and I just left.
An even bigger problem, from my perspective, was that the slope was so
crowded. Boarders and skiers were everywhere, moving in every direction, or
sometimes just sitting or lying on the snow. It's fine for a skilled
instructor to maneuver among the crowds, but I don't think it's right to ask
someone like me to learn in such conditions. Child beginners tend to be
heedless of where they'll end up when they start moving. However, as an
adult, I have the responsibility to think about where I'm heading. Also,
though I'm not a huge person, I'm an adult male and can do some damage to
anyone I collide with. I know that once my board starts moving, I can't stop
and I can't turn. When the slope is crawling with people, where am I
supposed to go? I can't just say, "Anyone in my path be damned!" As a
result, most of my trips were very short. Once I picked up a little speed, I
seemed to have no choice but to take a dive in order to stop before I became
a missile.
By the way, is it possible for a snowboard to be too fast, at least for a
beginner? A little more friction would have been welcome. I didn't like the
foot-on-a-banana-peel sensation of zipping away with no control. Since the
sport has no "crutch" -- the hand on the wall for the novice skater,
training wheels or a parent's grip for a new bicyclist, poles for the
beginning skier -- there doesn't seem to be a way to master the balancing
gradually.
On the whole, the experience was like learning to ride a bicycle by going
downhill with no brakes, and with dozens of pedestrians and other riders
crossing in front of you. When we were seated in the shuttle bus headed back
to the parking lot, my son remarked, "Well, that's one thing I never want to
do again. That was horrible."
Anyway, if we do this again -- and I'm not sure we will, given my son's
perspective and my disinclination to go alone -- we'll have to try private
lessons and figure out when there'll be some real open space available for
learning. I'm not sure what to do about equipment. Today's experience
confirms my general view that it's impossible to make progress in anything
with one-size-fits-all rental stuff (I didn't start improving as a skater
until I got my own, well-fitting skates), but it's very expensive and
probably imprudent to buy equipment we may seldom use. I already feel as
though today's $130 was flushed away with little to show for it.
Sorry for the extreme length of this report. If you're still awake, thanks
for reading.
Joe Ramirez
Playdreamer
news:400b2...@news1.prserv.net...
> What went wrong: Just about everything else.
Joe, I am really sorry to hear that. I am sure many others on the group
have, like me, seen friends and family members with a similar experience on
their first day, or had a similar experience first hand. When I see this
happen I always think if only he/she would persevere a little bit longer
they would get it and I am sure others would echo that.
Learning to snowboard, for most people, does take a degree of commitment to
go through the hard knocks and steep learning curve. We have all been there
and can attest to the fact that despite that rather crestfallen feeling
after the first few hours that "I'll never be able to do this" you can!
Doubtless you saw others snowboarding and it seemed like an impossible leap
in ability to go from that beginner slope to cruising effortlessly down the
mountain. It is not! So have a rest, take a break and recover but please do
not give up.
It certainly does not help that things went badly with equipment,
instruction and crowds but it does not have to be that way.
Consider going to a smaller ski hill to learn where it will be less
crowded - you are not going to need extensive trails just yet. Try and rent
equipment the afternoon before you need it when everyone else is out on the
slope and the staff have time to advise you properly, try a specialist
snowboard shop for rentals rather than the general ski/snowboard rental desk
at the mountain lodge. Book a private lesson and invest in some protective
clothing: padded skating or hockey shorts (snowboard specific ones are very
expensive), skate wrist guards and knee pads. You may have to spend a little
bit more money but you will not regret it.
I suspect that if you really meant never to try snowboarding again you would
not have come back to tell us about your experience so take heart from the
encouragement you will undoubtedly get here and give it a fresh start.
Luke
-------------------------
http://www.snowgo.com
David Brown :o)
but a lot slower, and with decent lessons (which by the sounds of, you
definately didn't have) you'll pick it up in a safe controlled manner.
At your standard you should not be travelling forward at all IMHO, as you
noted you will soon become a fast moving uncontrolled projectile.
You say that you couldn't get an edge at all, but you should be on an edge
at all times, flat running at your level (and mine for that matter is
lethal).
Side slipe on both heal and toes edges untill you are in complete control of
speed and the board.
Then try falling leaf (side slip going side to side) on both heal and toe
edges. Then try the same but turning a little more into the fall line and
back to perpendicular to the slope again.
Gradually turn more into the slope as you get more confident but still keep
on either toe or heal edge, do not try and swap edges. Do this in both
directions on both toe and heal edges.
Do not progress unless you are in complete control.
Once you control the board safely from Heal edge to straight down fall line
and back to heal edge stop and the same for toe edge, then and only then try
swaping from heal edge start to straight line and toe edge stop. Doe this
heal-straight-toestop and toe-straight-healstop until you are completely
happy with it and your control, this is the hardest bit to conquer and can
take time, but just take things slowly.
When mastered, try not coming to a complete stop but carry on traversing
accross the slope and put in another turn in the opposite direction, and so
on down the slope.
Once you are at that stage you are well on the way to becoming a well 'ard
boarder dood ;o)
Hope that helps, but don't take any of that as gospel as I'm a learner
myself.
> "David Brown :o)" <kit...@fake.com> wrote in message
> > He's gone for boarding (see later thread), but I reckon
> > he'll be skiing after the first week :o)
"Joe Ramirez" <jra...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
> O ye of little faith! We shall see.
>
> Joe Ramirez
Either that or go and get some skis :o)
--
David Brown :o)
http://kitemap.co.uk/stack
Edward Arata
Sorry to hear your experience with learning to Snowboard, although not
uncommon. I rented twice and never bothered with lessons before I broke
down and paid 350$ for a board setup.
Your absolutely right about the "kids" running the rental place just handing
you the equipment and saying go for it. This is also true with lessons from
what I have heard. Other than what has been said before, like renting from
a small shop the day before, I would suggest taking a person that knows how
to board. Ask a friend (adult) or the kid next door to go with you for the
day. Hell! Save the money you would spend on lessons and buy a lift ticket
for helping you. They can walk you through the boot and board selection
much better than the people there will. Also they should bring along a
Philips screwdriver so you don't have issue with binding angles. (Note: an
ok place to start with bindings angles is about 20 in front and -6 in the
back, if you want to try duck stance [usually a good place to start])
It confuses me that you didn't get on a lift. Learning to snowboard is all
about having enough slope. If you stay on things which are too flat you
will not be able to carve. After boarding for two years it is still
difficult to board without speed. It is like a bike, the faster you go the
easier it is to balance or in this case turn, up to a point. Don't worry,
every boarder bails of the lift the first time, I did it and everyone I have
taught has done it.
I understand that you don't want to hit people as a human projectile. I
have this issue as well being 6'5" and 200 lbs. So less crowed day would
help, not to mention non-icy conditions. The snow conditions also have a
huge impact on learning. Don't learn on ice or deep powder, neither will be
much fun. The best I think to learn on is machine packed powder that fell
within the last 3 or 4 days, so its not too too hard.
Other than that there are only two keys to snowboarding. One: Weight on
your front foot. Two: bend your knees. (whenever I take a good spill, I am
usually getting lazy on one or both of these points.)
You will be surprised how fast the learning curve is for snowboarding. I
spent 2 days falling down and after that it just starts to click. You can
become a pretty good boarding in 2 or 3 seasons compared to skiing which I
have been told takes much longer.
Definitely try it again, and I suggest taking a boarder with you who will
stay the whole day with you and help you with equipment teach you how to
board. This was evident when I learned, it took 2 days since my friends
were there but not really helping, however late last season I tough someone
who had never been on a board to link turns in 5 hours, not well but well
enough to hit hard blue runs. That's just my opinion.
ED
Snowboardripper
hill. The big mountains are machines that have to serve thousands of
customers the cheapest way possible.
Take another lesson, but only with you and your son, when there are 4
people in the group it is hard to get the personal attention. This
costs more but if the other 2 people in the group do not pick up fast
you will be stuck learning at there level. Get the equipent in the
morning, practice getting your balance then try some side slipping,
heel then toe side. Now you are warmed up go to your lesson.
Some tips are to wear knee pads and elbow pads, helmet and bike shorts
with padding. When you catch an edge and land on the knee pads you
will be smiling.
Hope this helps. Some people can pick it up fast while other it takes
a little longer. Good luck and do not give up on the sport!
Han Solo (D)
> I would suggest
> taking a person that knows how to board. Ask a friend (adult) or the
> kid next door to go with you for the day. Hell! Save the money you
> would spend on lessons and buy a lift ticket for helping you.
I would disagree on that.
I know a lot person who tried that, and it always ended in "ok, now you
turn" - "how?" - "well, I don't know how to explain, just try it. you
will know it soon"
It is a great difference between knowing snowboarding and knowing how to
TEACH snowboarding.
> It confuses me that you didn't get on a lift. Learning to snowboard
> is all about having enough slope. If you stay on things which are too
> flat you will not be able to carve.
Lessons we give for beginners usually take 2 days, on the first day you
take the lift ONE time in the afternoon.
The rest of the day is basic training.
Hell, you can take the lift all the day if you want to, but without
basics you barely drive down but fall...
> I understand that you don't want to hit people as a human projectile.
> I have this issue as well being 6'5" and 200 lbs. So less crowed day
> would help, not to mention non-icy conditions. The snow conditions
> also have a huge impact on learning. Don't learn on ice or deep
> powder, neither will be much fun. The best I think to learn on is
> machine packed powder that fell within the last 3 or 4 days, so its
> not too too hard.
> Other than that there are only two keys to snowboarding. One: Weight
> on your front foot. Two: bend your knees. (whenever I take a good
> spill, I am usually getting lazy on one or both of these points.)
hmm, there's a lot more on snowboarding than that. rotation is the most
important for beginners, among the front foot, ok.
a normal turn is set together by a lot of small things, and if you learn
them step by step, it is really easy!
> You will be surprised how fast the learning curve is for snowboarding.
> I spent 2 days falling down and after that it just starts to click.
> You can become a pretty good boarding in 2 or 3 seasons compared to
> skiing which I have been told takes much longer.
Well, and I can promise you: if you take a lesson at a good snowboard
school, you'll learn it in 1 day!
We garuantee our beginners they can drive down a normal hill with
curves/turns in one day. We never had to take that promise back. I am
honest. We had beginners from 6 years to 60 years, they all made it.
> Definitely try it again, and I suggest taking a boarder with you who
> will stay the whole day with you and help you with equipment teach you
> how to board.
Don't do it.
Take a lessons and depend on a maximum of 5 persons in your group. Or
take a private lesson.
Martin
Dean
> To recap, I'm 42, my son is 14, and neither of us had ever snowboarded before.
My recap: I'm 48. I started boarding last winter, and got in one month of
boarding before the snow melted. I've been going out as often as possible this
winter and loving it.
You made a couple of mistakes.
1. Going on a weekend. I rarely go out on a weekend. The slopes are too crowded
with out-of-control kids on weekends. Fortunately my job allows me to take time
off in 1/2 days, and I've been going out afternoons. (One day last winter a kid,
about 10, would zoom straight down the hill and then fall at the bottom. After
watching him do that a few times I asked him why he fell at the bottom of the
hill. He said that was the only way he knew how to stop. After seeing two people
hauled away with concussions I bought a helmet.)
2. Going under poor snow conditions. Ice isn't easy for anyone.
I have no idea what the hills are like at the place you visited. They might be
too steep for a beginner.
Last winter I took lessons from a nearby resort. The "easy hill" was quite
steep. The snow was more ice than snow due to poor quality snow making. The
class really didn't help because the instructor, a 17 year old, wasn't very
good. He knew how to board, but not how to teach.
I bought a book. I do not recall the title or author. What I did was create a
"snowboard simulator" by placing my board on a carpeted floor and hanging onto
the back of the sofa. I followed the instructions in the book for turning and
linking turns and overnight I went from body slams to boarding. I also found a
gentler slope with good snow and a chair lift rather than rope tow, and avoided
weekends. My skills quickly progressed. I'm now enjoying intermediate to
difficult trails.
I think the sport needs a simulator to shorten the learning phase. Other sports
have them.
Dean
ACey
> A couple of weeks ago, I started a thread here, "Snowboarding or
> skiing?", that generated much discussion and many helpful
> contributions from group members. To recap, I'm 42, my son is 14, and
> neither of us had ever snowboarded before. We decided to give the
> sport a shot at the Seven Springs resort near us in Pennsylvania. I
> thought the group might be interested in learning how our first day
> went. Those with a low tolerance for tedium may wish to stop reading
> now.
Uh oh, don't like the sound of this!
>
> What went right:
> *After reading about how to dress for the slopes, we bought long
> underwear, fleece, goggles, snowboarding gloves, etc. We were quite
> warm today. *Our rental boots & boards used step-in bindings, which
> turned out to be invaluable -- not just for getting into the bindings,
> but also for getting out of them. I often found that the only way to
> get from one place to another on the hill was to pick up the board and
> walk.
This might have been a double-edged sword. Sure step-ins are convenient,
but they can also be a bit 'floppy' - I'm guessing that they are the
Rossi/Emory ones with a bar that sticks out either side of the boot?
These are very common on rental boards and really do suck, as they wear
very quickly and once worn are really imprecise.
>*The snow-covered trees in the mountains southeast of Pittsburgh
> were very pretty.
>
> What went wrong: Just about everything else.
>
> Actually, our first day of snowboarding was supposed to have been last
> Sunday, but my son got sick and we had to postpone the trip for a
> week. Too bad, because last week was consistently cold, and I think
> the snow was in better shape (though mostly machine-made). This week
> was very cold up until yesterday, when the temperature suddenly rose,
> and it rained for a while. Then it turned colder again. The result was
> a wetter, icier environment.
Not good - you will be falling a lot, and ice does hurt.
>
> The day got off to a comic start this morning as I was viewing the
> Seven Springs snow report on my notebook computer. I walked across the
> room to show it to my wife, then returned to my seat, still staring at
> the screen. Unfortunately, the screen was not transparent, so I did
> not see the footrest sticking out from the couch, which I tripped over
> magnificently. I banged and scraped my foot, shin and knee, though the
> computer happily survived. This turned out to be my worst fall of the
> day, though I'm not sure I can legitimately claim it as
> snowboard-related.
Ouch. I did a similar thing on Christmas eve, except I didn't hurt
myself, but my powerbook is now in 2 bits (still works though!).
>
> At the beginning of the drive to Seven Springs, we were descending a
> steep hill in our area that turned out to be ice-covered and unsalted.
> The car spun around several times before ending up in a grassy field
> on the side of the road. Luckily, we didn't hit anything, so we were
> able to pull back onto the road, gingerly crawl down the rest of the
> hill, and resume the trip. But the near-accident turned out to be a
> bad omen.
>
> Seven Springs has a beginner package for $65 that includes boots and
> board rental, a 90-minute group lesson, and a limited access lift
> ticket. (The package is cheaper for skiers, because the ski rental
> costs less. Why is that?) We purchased two of these packages for a
> total of $130. We never even got near a lift today, so I guess we lost
> money on that part of the deal.
>
> I had thought that equipment selection and use would be part of the
> lesson, but it wasn't. A guy just handed us boots after learning our
> shoe sizes. There was no effort to ensure a truly good fit, or to
> explain how all the various fasteners worked. I had to keep going back
> to the rental desk to ask questions. After we got one of my son's
> boots on and fastened, I noticed that the other one was missing a
> strap, so we had to start again with a new pair. My own boots were
> size 11. I suppose that they fit me adequately after a lot of tugging
> on the laces, but I think that the model was probably too wide to
> start with. My heels felt a bit loose, and there was a certain
> Frankenstein's monster quality to my stomping.
From your experience's I guess you won't be too keen on spending more
money on the sport, but if you do decide to persevere (and you should -
it can only get better) really think about getting your own boots. They
needn't be expensive ones, just a pair of basic softboots.
This has 2 advantages:
- you get a pair of boots that fit you well. People have different shaped
feet and what works for one person won't work for another. If you go to
rent you're pretty much tied to the rental stock, if you buy you get to
try different makes and models, and you can go to more than one store to
find what fits. The single most important thing is heel-hold, you don't
want your heel slopping around in the boot; the 2nd most important thing
is comfort - no pinch points, you can wiggle your toes.
- when you rent a board you'll get one with soft bindings, rather than
step-ins. I really isn't a huge deal to strap and unstrap the board
(probably not much slower than trying to match the boot to the step-in)
and the increase in 'feel' from straps is worth it. You also will find
yourself moving around by scooting you board with your back leg - this
does actually help you get a feel for the board as well. (Rental boards
with soft bindings tend to be a little better too.)
>
> After all the boots were tied, I happened to look down at my hand and
> notice that the skin was shredded on two fingers from all the lace
> pulling. The rental clerk responded vacantly when I asked where first
> aid was, so I just wandered around until I thought of trying the
> childcare area. Sure enough, the supervisor there had a whole box of
> first aid supplies, so I was able to find a couple of bandages for my
> fingers.
That sounds grim. You really shouldn't have to tie boots that tightly t
oget a good fit. The boots didn't fit.
>
> My son and I were given the same model of snowboard (Rossignol),
> though his was a little longer than mine. That struck me as odd, since
> we are within .25" to .5" in height (he is tall for a 14-year-old --
> about six feet), but I outweigh him by 40-50 pounds. When we finally
> got out on the slope, I discovered that the binding for my front
> (left) foot was almost perpendicular to the major axis of the board,
> which turned out to be inconvenient for me. There was so much angle to
> the foot placement that it hurt to twist my left knee when I had to
> scoot with the left foot on the board and the right foot pushing.
> Also, I keep my balance much better when I can turn my left foot more
> toward to the direction in which I'm heading. It felt awkward to have
> it pointing to the side. Our instructor said it was possible to rotate
> the binding on the board, but I tried it on the hill and it didn't
> budge.
It sounds like they gave you pretty much what came to hand first. The
main criteria for sizing a board is weight rather than height, and foot
size - big feet = wide board.
>
> The group lesson itself turned out to be of little use. There were
> about five groups of eight for the 2:00 p.m. snowboarding beginners'
> lesson, and probably as many for the skiing lesson, so if you pictured
> the slope as very crowded, you'd be right. I was the only adult in our
> group of eight. The instructor went through a series of lessons in a
> set order, and from my perspective it didn't seem to make much
> difference whether the students mastered a step or not before the next
> came along. Stand on the board | Push the board | Slide with both feet
> on the board, but only one in the bindings
>| Toeside turn | Heelside turn | Try both feet in the bindings | Now
>| try
> linking turns. I wasn't close to being able to turn effectively -- in
> fact, I really couldn't get the board on edge at all -- when we were
> supposed to try linking turns. I'd say that of the eight people in the
> group, perhaps two (both little kids -- this seems to be a relatively
> bad sport for taller folks to learn) could do a half-decent single
> turn. Everyone else would slide down the hill a bit, make some kind of
> effort, perhaps turn a little, then flop over in a heap. This was
> about one hour into the lesson. At this point my son, who was very far
> from enjoying himself, and I just left.
From what you're saying and from seeing people learning in some resorts
in the Alps, I am *so* glad I learnt at Whistler. (Did the 3 day 'Ride
Esprit' program in '99, with two really great instructors - Arnie and
Jay.)
Others have already covered this, but it sounds like your teaching
quality wasn't great. After skating the board, the whole learning process
is about side-slipping, first on your toe-edge, then the heel-edge, and
learninh how looking up and making the edge bite into the snow controls
your descent. Then you do the falling leaf - side slipping from side to
side, still using the edge to control speed. Once you've done enough
falling-leaf, you will naturally feel the desire to turn a turn -
probably only one one side. You should never find yourself not in control
or going anything above a quick walking pace.
>
> An even bigger problem, from my perspective, was that the slope was so
> crowded. Boarders and skiers were everywhere, moving in every
> direction, or sometimes just sitting or lying on the snow. It's fine
> for a skilled instructor to maneuver among the crowds, but I don't
> think it's right to ask someone like me to learn in such conditions.
> Child beginners tend to be heedless of where they'll end up when they
> start moving. However, as an adult, I have the responsibility to think
> about where I'm heading. Also, though I'm not a huge person, I'm an
> adult male and can do some damage to anyone I collide with. I know
> that once my board starts moving, I can't stop and I can't turn. When
> the slope is crawling with people, where am I supposed to go? I can't
> just say, "Anyone in my path be damned!" As a result, most of my trips
> were very short. Once I picked up a little speed, I seemed to have no
> choice but to take a dive in order to stop before I became a missile.
See above. Also, surely the resort should have a beginners area (bunny
slopes we used to call 'em) where anyone not in a lesson isn't allowed.
It makes it a whole load nicer to learn, if only becuase you don't feel
so self conscious!! ;)
>
> By the way, is it possible for a snowboard to be too fast, at least
> for a beginner? A little more friction would have been welcome. I
> didn't like the foot-on-a-banana-peel sensation of zipping away with
> no control. Since the sport has no "crutch" -- the hand on the wall
> for the novice skater, training wheels or a parent's grip for a new
> bicyclist, poles for the beginning skier -- there doesn't seem to be a
> way to master the balancing gradually.
Too fast - not really. So long as the board isn't something really
'special', which it won't be.
The whole balance learning is what you are doing when you side-slip and
do the falling leaf. You aren't actively learning to balance, you're just
getting used to being on a board in a controlled way, the balance just
comes over time.
>
> On the whole, the experience was like learning to ride a bicycle by
> going downhill with no brakes, and with dozens of pedestrians and
> other riders crossing in front of you. When we were seated in the
> shuttle bus headed back to the parking lot, my son remarked, "Well,
> that's one thing I never want to do again. That was horrible."
Do try again - it can only get better :)
>
> Anyway, if we do this again -- and I'm not sure we will, given my
> son's perspective and my disinclination to go alone -- we'll have to
> try private lessons and figure out when there'll be some real open
> space available for learning. I'm not sure what to do about equipment.
> Today's experience confirms my general view that it's impossible to
> make progress in anything with one-size-fits-all rental stuff (I
> didn't start improving as a skater until I got my own, well-fitting
> skates), but it's very expensive and probably imprudent to buy
> equipment we may seldom use. I already feel as though today's $130 was
> flushed away with little to show for it.
Yup, you had a pretty unfortunate start to your boarding adventure, but
remember the words of Obi Wan "Everytime you strike me down Vader, I'll
come back stronger" (or something to that effect).
>
> Sorry for the extreme length of this report. If you're still awake,
> thanks for reading.
>
> Joe Ramirez
>
Couple of other things:
Maybe try and go away for a long-weekend to learn. It will take more than
a day to start to really feel that you are making progress, and it's
worthwhile having a block of time to do that. Maybe a long weekend in
Whistler - use your US$ to get a good deal ;)
Also, there's a book called "Snowboarding" by Rob Reichenfeld and Anne
Bruechert (ISBN 0873226771), Amazon have it. It's a good introduction and
light on the 'woah, dude' type stuff. I found it really useful to read
through what I'd learnt that day in the bath(!!) after the lesson. It
helps to see the theory behind what you've been trying to learn. It's
also got a good chapter on pre- and post- riding exercises, which do
help. (Also some stuff on equipment, but it's a little dated, although
the basics remain the same.)
Give it another go, and let us know how you got on!
AC.
Jason Watkins
My very first snowboard experience was a friend leading me to the top
of a blue run (at heavenly in tahoe) and saying "see you in a couple
hours". I think I managed to tumble down that run 3 times before I was
so tired I had no hope of balancing. Despite that, I had a lot of fun,
and actually managed a turn or 2 in there.
About 2 years later, my girlfriend and I decided to up to the local
mountain for christmas day. We did the same sort of package rental +
beginners lift ticket, and got fairly good service all around. A group
lesson totally is a compramise though... by the end of the lesson, we
were linking very shakey turns, but didn't have much feedback from the
instructor on how to keep progressing as he spent most of his time
helping the slowest learning in the class. We actually spent a solid
11 hours on the bunny hill that day.
After that, I did a whole lot of $10 night ski at a local resort here.
I'd guess it wasn't until my 8th trip out that things began to make
sense, and that I improved much beyond where I was on that first day.
If I'd had personal instruction, I probibly could have eliminated
those 8 nights of falling down, but I managed to learn pretty good on
my own anyhow. After that things progressed very quickly over the next
season.
It's definately not easy, and those first few times out, all I felt
walking up to that lift line for my first ride up was complete dread.
But, I stuck at it, and now I only get that sense of dread when I'm
looking down something I know is beyond my ability, but I'm gonna try
it anyhow. I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to keep facing that sense
of dread as long as I want to advance.
It's not cheap either. If it wasn't for the $10 night ski here I may
not have kept paying $40+ for each day of punishment. This is now my
2nd season of consistant riding, and if I added up all the tickets,
equipment, food, gas, advil, etc I'm sure I've spent a few $1000 on
snowboarding.
Snowboarding, and I assume skiing, are sports that definately require
you to invest in some discomfort to reap the rewards. It sounds like
you had an especially bad first time out, but I wouldn't be surprised
if most people had a fairly negative first day.
If it's not for you, that's fine, there's a million ways to have fun
that don't involve falling on your @$$ in the cold and wet ;P. If for
some reason you do decide to give it another shot, specific
suggestions would be:
Rent from a snowboard shop, not the resort. Resort's don't have much
competition pressuring them to carry good rental equipment. With a
shop, you can check out their offerings, and see how helpful the staff
are.
As for a lesson, it sounds like that resort has particularly poor
offerings. However, now that you've done the beginner one, you
probibly can come back and get a "next step" lesson that'll be a
smaller group with more focused attention. Or you can find a private
lesson. A friend who already knows how to snowboard or ski might not
be the best teacher, but they can be good encouragement.
Carry chains, the access roads for resorts are often icy here, so I
can only imagine how bad it would be on the east coast.
Try to go on a week day, or if it must be a weekend, not one that's
near a holiday. This should help cut down the crowds.
Boards are made to glide, and I'm not sure slowing one down would help
someone learn. The reason you wish it was slower is because your not
sure how to control this thing. Garlands are a great way to get some
confidence: Start out with the board pointed accross the slope. Shift
your weight toward one end of the board so that it starts to point
down the slope (just like falling leaf). Get it pointed as close to
straight down the slope as you dare, and then shift weight to bring it
back to being perpendicular accross the slope. Just keep doing that
both toeside and heelside and soon you'll get some confidence that
even if you get a little speed, you'll be able to bring that board
back around and skid to a stop.
Mike T
There were lots of good comments from the others -
Yes, the worst is over. It gets better from here, why else would we all
be so fanatical about it? FWIW, aside from the car and laptop
accidents, my first time went pretty much the same as yours. I slammed
down on the ice so many times I could barely move for three days. I
didn't try again till the next season, and it went much better.
Yes, rent from a shop, not the mountain - try on the boots at the shop,
get into the bindings, do whatever you can to make sure your stance is
comfy.
I recall you saying on your 1st thread, weekdays were not an option.
You could rent at a shop the night before, and then get to the mountain
bright and early, before the lifts open. You want to get into the
first lesson of the day, which usually starts just after the lifts open.
The slopes will be less crowded. Beginners don't get to the mountain
early. If you do, you might get the bunny slope to yourself! Also,
group lessons will probably be less crowded early in the AM. Not to
mention, chances are the trail will be freshly groomed.
It sound like your lesson just plain sucked. Call the 7 springs, ask
for the ski school manager, and tell them about it. Depending on what
kind of operation 7 Springs is, you might get some freebies out of it,
like a free lesson and ticket. If you decide to go for the private
lesson, make an appointment at this time, and make it *clear* that you
want the best beginner instructor they've got!
If you do a group lesson instead, like I said, show up for the first
lesson, who knows, you mind end up getting a private one anyway!
Mike T
toddjb
>
Joe, sorry your first experience was a bad one. The best takeaways
from everyone here is 1) don't go on a weekend and 2) don't go when
its icy (which is tough to call since the condition reports always
lie).
I go to 7Springs a lot and its a nice hill. Particularly the North
Face area once you've gotten the hang of basic skills. So, don't
discount the resort.
Regarding your $130, I'd contact the resort or write a letter and
pretty much spell out all the negatives from your post here. It is to
the resorts advantage to teach you correctly because then you'll come
back and spend more $ with them on lifts, food and rentals. If you
get the right person on the phone or send a letter to the owner, I would
be very surprised if you did not get 2 free lesson/rental vouchers
for you to give it another try.
Or go to a small mountain.
Yes, go for the private lesson.
As unrecommended as this is, when I learned we just rented boards, went
to the bunny lift and figured it out. We had tips from a couple people
and asked other boarders we saw for advice which most provided. These
days most people recommend taking a lesson to increase your learning
curve, but if you're patient and have someone to give you tips along the
way, you can figure it out on your own like many people do. (Instructors
rarely admit to this since they see only the carnage of self-teaching
gone bad...the ones that get through it don't come crawling to them! :)
Try it again. Its a fun sport,
-todd
Han Solo (D)
>
> As unrecommended as this is, when I learned we just rented boards,
> went to the bunny lift and figured it out. We had tips from a couple
> people and asked other boarders we saw for advice which most provided.
> These days most people recommend taking a lesson to increase your
> learning curve, but if you're patient and have someone to give you
> tips along the way, you can figure it out on your own like many people
> do. (Instructors rarely admit to this since they see only the carnage
> of self-teaching gone bad...the ones that get through it don't come
> crawling to them! :)
Well, it's just an easy calculation: if you don't have the time to go
very often (let's say, two weeks per winter total), you can
a) either take all the two weeks to self-improve
b) or take just one or two lessons, and get all the improvements in one
or two days --> and use the rest of the remaining days to enjoy driving
better!
I don't say that a "normal" snowboarder can't give you tips on
snowboarding.
I can tell you from my experience: I was snowboarding for about 5 years.
I was quite good and came down the slopes well. But at this time it just
took very long to improve my skills.
So I decided to take instructor lessons, and two things happened:
- I learned in one week as much as in the last 2-3 years
- I now knew WHY to move in a special way, why to bend the knees, ...
Plus, I now know how to give that information to others.
It's similar with education...
Understand?
Martin
Jürgen Schmadlak
> What went wrong: Just about everything else.
sorry about that.
> Seven Springs has a beginner package for $65 that includes boots and board
> rental, a 90-minute group lesson, and a limited access lift ticket. (The
I rented the equipment in a Shop in my hometown. We rented for one
week:
Board: 50- Euro (60 US$)
Boots: 39- Euro (47 US$)
We had a very good service. I tried more than one hour till a find a
boot that fits on my foot. We had a long talk how to stand an the
board, goofy or regular.
On the next day we went for one week to Sölden/Austria and checked
in to a 3 day group lesson (4 hours a day, 123 Euro/150 US$). There
were two beginner groups, one for kids and one for adult, so I (37)
decide the adult group (6 persons).
The first 2 hours we spend on the idiot hill. Walking up and try to
go down just to get the control on the board.
After lunch we used the lift. It was high season but on the slope
was enough place for all the people.
> I really couldn't get the board on edge at all -- when we were supposed to
> try linking turns. I'd say that of the eight people in the group, perhaps
My first turn I made on my *second* day on the board. After 5 hours
course I had the feeling that I can make it. On the third day it was
really fun - spitting on the pain in every part of my body.
> On the whole, the experience was like learning to ride a bicycle by going
> downhill with no brakes, and with dozens of pedestrians and other riders
Bad equipment, bad instructor and crowded slope. Sounds bad.
> to the parking lot, my son remarked, "Well, that's one thing I never want to
> do again. That was horrible."
Try harder :-)
> perspective and my disinclination to go alone -- we'll have to try private
> lessons and figure out when there'll be some real open space available for
> learning. I'm not sure what to do about equipment. Today's experience
Maybe look for good shop to rent the equipment. If you know another
boarder ask him for help you with the equipment. For a beginner a 2
day curse is a good idea. In 90 minutes you learn nothing.
Private lesson can also be a good idea, but I learned much when I
was watching how the other guys make mistakes. Our instructor
explained everything very good (thank you, Alex).
--
Satisfy your thirst for life!
NP: Velvet Underground - Lisa Says
Johnny K
didn't bother with lessons or anything.. What i did was go to my local
ski hill (wiht a massive 200foot vertical drop), and brought my friend
(who, as chance would have it, is a snowboard instructor there).. He
just showed me some basics (after watching me fly down the hill straight
the first time).. He err, held my hands, with my board perpendicular
to the slope, and had me put my weight on the front, and watch how it
starts to go straight down the hill.. The the same with the back, so it
comes donw the hill, and I end up perpendicular again, but backwards..
After I got proficient with that, it was time for me to go solo.. I just
went around all day trying, and picked it up! It's quite fun now! I say
give it a whirl on your OWN terms this time.. a 1 on 1 lesson.. (And I
bought my own equipment before hand, because I had an inkling that I was
going to enjoy it).. thats the best advice from 1 novice to another that
I can give..
Joe Ramirez
news:72ce17be.04011...@posting.google.com...
> The best thing to do is to take another lesson at a smaller friendly
> hill. The big mountains are machines that have to serve thousands of
> customers the cheapest way possible.
So I've noticed. I went to a large resort because I thought it would have
the best instructors around. The assembly line aspect of the place did not
occur to me.
> Take another lesson, but only with you and your son, when there are 4
> people in the group it is hard to get the personal attention. This
> costs more but if the other 2 people in the group do not pick up fast
> you will be stuck learning at there level.
Or, if we don't pick it up fast, they could be stuck learning at our level!
<g>
> Get the equipent in the
> morning, practice getting your balance then try some side slipping,
> heel then toe side. Now you are warmed up go to your lesson.
> Some tips are to wear knee pads and elbow pads, helmet and bike shorts
> with padding. When you catch an edge and land on the knee pads you
> will be smiling.
Thanks for the tips,
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
news:Xns9475A4B0F6872mr...@141.24.4.8...
> "Edward Arata" <edward...@mat.ethz.ch> wrote:
> Well, and I can promise you: if you take a lesson at a good snowboard
> school, you'll learn it in 1 day!
>
> We garuantee our beginners they can drive down a normal hill with
> curves/turns in one day. We never had to take that promise back. I am
> honest. We had beginners from 6 years to 60 years, they all made it.
>
Where do you teach?
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
news:400BF4A9...@nowhere.com...
> Joe Ramirez wrote:
>
> > To recap, I'm 42, my son is 14, and neither of us had ever snowboarded
before.
>
> My recap: I'm 48. I started boarding last winter, and got in one month of
> boarding before the snow melted. I've been going out as often as possible
this
> winter and loving it.
>
> You made a couple of mistakes.
>
> 1. Going on a weekend. I rarely go out on a weekend. The slopes are too
crowded
> with out-of-control kids on weekends. Fortunately my job allows me to take
time
> off in 1/2 days, and I've been going out afternoons.
I work M-F, so going on a weekday without taking time off from work would be
very difficult. Most places that offer lessons stop giving them at 5:00 or
6:00 at the latest, or in the afternoon.
Seven Springs' special beginner package is offered Sunday through Friday.
Saturday is the resort's busiest day, so I guess they want to ease the load
a bit by keeping the beginners out. However, for beginners the effect is to
make Sunday super crowded, since it's the only weekend day with the lesson
package.
> 2. Going under poor snow conditions. Ice isn't easy for anyone.
>
> I have no idea what the hills are like at the place you visited. They
might be
> too steep for a beginner.
I don't think Seven Springs' beginner hill is too steep. As for the icy
conditions, it's tough to be too choosy when you're limited, as a practical
matter, to one day a week.
> I bought a book. I do not recall the title or author. What I did was
create a
> "snowboard simulator" by placing my board on a carpeted floor and hanging
onto
> the back of the sofa. I followed the instructions in the book for turning
and
> linking turns and overnight I went from body slams to boarding. I also
found a
> gentler slope with good snow and a chair lift rather than rope tow, and
avoided
> weekends. My skills quickly progressed. I'm now enjoying intermediate to
> difficult trails.
This is a very good idea. I get along well with books.
> I think the sport needs a simulator to shorten the learning phase. Other
sports
> have them.
Or a "crutch," as I mentioned in my first message. It's rare for a balance
sport to have no crutch available for beginners; where would gymnasts be
without their harnesses? Surfers don't have one, but they can move their
feet and land in the water.
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
news:Xns9475AC23E5C...@131.111.8.69...
> > turned out to be invaluable -- not just for getting into the bindings,
> > but also for getting out of them. I often found that the only way to
> > get from one place to another on the hill was to pick up the board and
> > walk.
>
> This might have been a double-edged sword. Sure step-ins are convenient,
> but they can also be a bit 'floppy' - I'm guessing that they are the
> Rossi/Emory ones with a bar that sticks out either side of the boot?
> These are very common on rental boards and really do suck, as they wear
> very quickly and once worn are really imprecise.
Yes, that's the kind they were. However, I didn't have a problem with the
bindings. They were easy to use and seemed effective, as least for someone
at my non-level.
> From your experience's I guess you won't be too keen on spending more
> money on the sport, but if you do decide to persevere (and you should -
> it can only get better) really think about getting your own boots. They
> needn't be expensive ones, just a pair of basic softboots.
I will definitely have to consider this. Rental stuff is always somewhere
between adequate and bad. It's never good.
> Others have already covered this, but it sounds like your teaching
> quality wasn't great. After skating the board, the whole learning process
> is about side-slipping, first on your toe-edge, then the heel-edge, and
> learninh how looking up and making the edge bite into the snow controls
> your descent. Then you do the falling leaf - side slipping from side to
> side, still using the edge to control speed. Once you've done enough
> falling-leaf, you will naturally feel the desire to turn a turn -
> probably only one one side. You should never find yourself not in control
> or going anything above a quick walking pace.
We never did the falling leaf. I wish we had.
>
> Also, surely the resort should have a beginners area (bunny
> slopes we used to call 'em) where anyone not in a lesson isn't allowed.
> It makes it a whole load nicer to learn, if only becuase you don't feel
> so self conscious!! ;)
We were on the beginners' slope, but the problem was that it was teeming
with beginners! There also seemed to be a lot of skiers "passing through" on
their way to someplace else.
> Yup, you had a pretty unfortunate start to your boarding adventure, but
> remember the words of Obi Wan "Everytime you strike me down Vader, I'll
> come back stronger" (or something to that effect).
I think it was, "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than
you can possibly imagine." (But Lucas never explained why that was so! He
didn't seem like a very powerful ghost to me.) That may be a bit of an
exaggeration in my case. <g>
> Couple of other things:
>
> Maybe try and go away for a long-weekend to learn. It will take more than
> a day to start to really feel that you are making progress, and it's
> worthwhile having a block of time to do that. Maybe a long weekend in
> Whistler - use your US$ to get a good deal ;)
If we went to Canada, I'd probably want to go to Banff/Lake Louise. We
visited that area in the summer ten years ago, and we loved it. But western
North America is too far for a long weekend; travel would take an entire day
each way. I was thinking about the Snowshoe resort in West Virginia, which
is a four-hour drive from here. Anyone been there?
> Also, there's a book called "Snowboarding" by Rob Reichenfeld and Anne
> Bruechert (ISBN 0873226771), Amazon have it. It's a good introduction and
> light on the 'woah, dude' type stuff. I found it really useful to read
> through what I'd learnt that day in the bath(!!) after the lesson. It
> helps to see the theory behind what you've been trying to learn. It's
> also got a good chapter on pre- and post- riding exercises, which do
> help. (Also some stuff on equipment, but it's a little dated, although
> the basics remain the same.)
Thanks for the recommendation.
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
news:34c75ec8.04011...@posting.google.com...
>>
> Rent from a snowboard shop, not the resort. Resort's don't have much
> competition pressuring them to carry good rental equipment. With a
> shop, you can check out their offerings, and see how helpful the staff
> are.
Do all shops rent? We passed some rental shops near Seven Springs, but the
ski/board shops in the Pittsburgh metropolitan area seem to focus on
selling, not renting. Of course, I've never asked. <g>
> As for a lesson, it sounds like that resort has particularly poor
> offerings. However, now that you've done the beginner one, you
> probibly can come back and get a "next step" lesson that'll be a
> smaller group with more focused attention. Or you can find a private
> lesson. A friend who already knows how to snowboard or ski might not
> be the best teacher, but they can be good encouragement.
There's no way we're ready for the "next step" lesson, since we decisively
failed the first course!
> Boards are made to glide, and I'm not sure slowing one down would help
> someone learn. The reason you wish it was slower is because your not
> sure how to control this thing. Garlands are a great way to get some
> confidence: Start out with the board pointed accross the slope. Shift
> your weight toward one end of the board so that it starts to point
> down the slope (just like falling leaf).
Never did the garland or the falling leaf.
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
news:_cVOb.8806$MV4....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > What went wrong: Just about everything else.
>
> There were lots of good comments from the others -
>
> Yes, the worst is over. It gets better from here, why else would we all
> be so fanatical about it? FWIW, aside from the car and laptop
> accidents, my first time went pretty much the same as yours. I slammed
> down on the ice so many times I could barely move for three days. I
> didn't try again till the next season, and it went much better.
Actually, since just about all of my falling was more or less intentional,
as a means of stopping, it didn't really hurt. It was more like sliding.
What was frustrating about the experience was not undue physical discomfort,
but rather the sense that learning was simply not possible in that
environment. When I looked down and saw all those people standing, sitting
or skiing right where I was supposed to practice my non-existent turning
skills, I knew it was hopeless.
> Yes, rent from a shop, not the mountain - try on the boots at the shop,
> get into the bindings, do whatever you can to make sure your stance is
> comfy.
>
> I recall you saying on your 1st thread, weekdays were not an option.
> You could rent at a shop the night before, and then get to the mountain
> bright and early, before the lifts open. You want to get into the
> first lesson of the day, which usually starts just after the lifts open.
> The slopes will be less crowded. Beginners don't get to the mountain
> early. If you do, you might get the bunny slope to yourself! Also,
> group lessons will probably be less crowded early in the AM. Not to
> mention, chances are the trail will be freshly groomed.
In a day of wrong things, our timing went wrong too. I had wanted to get to
Seven Springs in time for the first (10:00 AM) snowboarding lesson, but the
roads in our neighborhood hadn't been salted early in the morning, so I
thought it was better to wait. (And the drive was still much more "exciting"
than I would have liked!) However, I thought that we could make the noon
lesson by getting there shortly before 12:00, because I naively believed the
lesson began with equipment selection. Of course, 12:00 meant "on the
mountain and ready to go" at 12:00. So, we had to wait for the 2:00 PM
lesson, and it was jammed.
> It sound like your lesson just plain sucked. Call the 7 springs, ask
> for the ski school manager, and tell them about it. Depending on what
> kind of operation 7 Springs is, you might get some freebies out of it,
> like a free lesson and ticket. If you decide to go for the private
> lesson, make an appointment at this time, and make it *clear* that you
> want the best beginner instructor they've got!
I sent Seven Springs an e-mail with an abridged version of the report I
posted here. No response so far, and I'm really not expecting one.
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
news:e25c4163.0401...@posting.google.com...
> "Joe Ramirez" <jra...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:<400b2...@news1.prserv.net>...
> >
> Joe, sorry your first experience was a bad one. The best takeaways
> from everyone here is 1) don't go on a weekend and 2) don't go when
> its icy (which is tough to call since the condition reports always
> lie).
>
> I go to 7Springs a lot and its a nice hill. Particularly the North
> Face area once you've gotten the hang of basic skills. So, don't
> discount the resort.
I think it's a pretty nice resort for people who don't need hand-holding.
But it may be too big and hectic to provide a satisfying, productive
experience for beginners.
> Regarding your $130, I'd contact the resort or write a letter and
> pretty much spell out all the negatives from your post here. It is to
> the resorts advantage to teach you correctly because then you'll come
> back and spend more $ with them on lifts, food and rentals. If you
> get the right person on the phone or send a letter to the owner, I would
> be very surprised if you did not get 2 free lesson/rental vouchers
> for you to give it another try.
As I mentioned previously, I've sent Seven Springs an e-mail, but I doubt
that there will be much in the way of a response. You're right about the
incentive to provide good teaching, but the resort (resorts?) may not
understand that, or it may not care.
> Or go to a small mountain.
I have been thinking about trying Boyce Park here in Allegheny County. It's
not a full-fledged resort, just a "ski hill" with five or so trails. But's
it's much closer to home than Seven Springs, and it's supposed to be a good
place for beginners because it's small and gentle. The park offers lessons
and rentals for skiers and snowboarders, though if we went there we'd
probably follow the advice of this group and rent from a shop in advance, or
even purchase some stuff.
Thanks,
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
news:bui0ar...@news.southcity.de...
> Maybe look for good shop to rent the equipment. If you know another
> boarder ask him for help you with the equipment. For a beginner a 2
> day curse is a good idea. In 90 minutes you learn nothing.
I don't know any snowboarders, but I suppose if we rented in advance from a
shop, we would have plenty of time to discuss our needs there. It's
difficult to do that a resort with a huge line of other people waiting to
get their own rental boots and boards.
Thanks,
Joe Ramirez
toddjb
I wasn't disagreeing with you, its one of those "to each his own" things.
Most people I've taught or have learned on their own through a few good
tips and some perseverance are linking turns at the end of a day. Sure,
they're tired, sore and don't want to sit down on anything hard for a
week, but they have the basic skills to do it again next time out and
they've also figured out how to ride a lift. After fearing that lift
ramp each time up, maybe the slope doesn't seem so bad! :)
I find a lot of people who take the beginner lesson don't get that
far.
I still recommend people to TAKE A LESSON, but don't think that what
worked for you is the best for everyone. As you have heard here, there
are good and bad instructors and good and bad tips from non-instructors.
From my experience, they're about equal. Sure some boarders can't tell
you "how to turn" but many others remember clear enough how they got
through it and they can pass on the info...its not rocket science,
just muscle memory you learn through trial and error.
Just different ways to learn...
Joe Ramirez
"Johnny K" <johnkr...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:400C8260...@sympatico.ca...
> sorry to hear that.. I just started snowboarding a few weeks ago, but
> didn't bother with lessons or anything.. What i did was go to my local
> ski hill (wiht a massive 200foot vertical drop), and brought my friend
> (who, as chance would have it, is a snowboard instructor there).. He
> just showed me some basics (after watching me fly down the hill straight
> the first time).. He err, held my hands, with my board perpendicular
> to the slope, and had me put my weight on the front, and watch how it
> starts to go straight down the hill.
It seems to me that hand holding is an obviously useful tool that could help
all beginners. At least some instructors apparently use it:
http://atearl.com/ski/snowboard_lesson4.html
But I suppose it might be hard to use in a group lesson.
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
news:slrnc0nabe.4pl...@yahoobb220004112021.bbtec.net...
> Yeah, this is a pretty common experience at rental shops. I see many
> people in rental gear that is so low quality and/or poor fitting that
> I know they're gonna struggle to learn to turn.
>
> You can get better results if you don't mind making the rental
> dude/dudette muck about giving you various different boot sizes, and
> adjusting your bindings for preferred stance angle etc. But
> first-time beginners don't usually know what they want, and are often
> intimidated by the whole experience.
Right. I didn't really know what we wanted, except that I wanted it to work.
But there really isn't much that the clerks can do for one person, because
they always have to worry about the long line of people waiting for service.
> I don't know if the instructor was doing a good job or not, but what
> you've described sounds fairly common to me. Your first time out on
> the slope involves lots of falling over and very little control.
> It's a steep learning curve, by which I mean it seems impossibly
> daunting at first, but after about two days (often earlier) some
> basic skills "click" and you're off to explore the rest of the
> mountain.
>
> Perhaps you're shaking your head while reading this, firm in the
> belief that you'll never be able to learn to snowboard, but unless
> you're spectacularly uncoordinated you'll pick it up quicker than you
> think.
The skills seemed to be hard to learn, but that wasn't the real problem. The
problem was that the environment -- the particular equipment we had been
issued, which was OK by rental standards but not quite right, the
instructor's rote procedures, and most of all the impossibly crowded
beginners' hill -- made learning impossible, at least for me. I just refuse
to do anything that risks smacking into other people.
I suppose my first day of ice skating (also as an adult) was worse, because
my finger got run over by a skate blade, I bled all over the ice and had to
go the emergency room for stitches. I persevered, however, because I could
tell, even from the first day, that I would eventually be able to learn the
activity. I could hold the wall when I needed to, and when I fell on open
ice, I was falling while actually skating, not while I was just learning to
stand up. Buying my own equipment was easy to manage because a pair of good
skates is a lot less than a board, boots and bindings. And a key factor was
that we did a lot of skating indoors in the summer, when the rinks were
usually empty or close to it. It's great to learn with a big open spaces at
your disposal. I wish there were a snowboarding equivalent.
Thanks,
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
"Playdreamer" <playdreamert...@uk2.net> wrote in message
news:bugcmq$hgm3s$1...@ID-102839.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Consider going to a smaller ski hill to learn where it will be less
> crowded - you are not going to need extensive trails just yet. Try and
rent
> equipment the afternoon before you need it when everyone else is out on
the
> slope and the staff have time to advise you properly, try a specialist
> snowboard shop for rentals rather than the general ski/snowboard rental
desk
> at the mountain lodge. Book a private lesson and invest in some protective
> clothing: padded skating or hockey shorts (snowboard specific ones are
very
> expensive), skate wrist guards and knee pads. You may have to spend a
little
> bit more money but you will not regret it.
There's a ski hill in a nearby public park, Boyce Park, that is supposed to
be good for beginners (perhaps because it's too tame for experienced snow
sliders). We may try that place if I can persuade my son to give
snowboarding another shot. Boyce Park is closer and cheaper than Seven
Springs, so we may even be able to go there on weekday nights. If we go, we
will definitely get a private lesson if available.
Thanks,
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
> Are there any dry slopes near you? They are much more difficult to board
on
> but a lot slower, and with decent lessons (which by the sounds of, you
> definately didn't have) you'll pick it up in a safe controlled manner.
What are dry slopes? Are they those artificial turf hills with slippery
pellets?
> At your standard you should not be travelling forward at all IMHO, as you
> noted you will soon become a fast moving uncontrolled projectile.
> You say that you couldn't get an edge at all, but you should be on an edge
> at all times, flat running at your level (and mine for that matter is
> lethal).
Yes, that was my problem. The board was flat and I was going much too fast.
> Side slipe on both heal and toes edges untill you are in complete control
of
> speed and the board.
> Then try falling leaf (side slip going side to side) on both heal and toe
> edges. Then try the same but turning a little more into the fall line
and
> back to perpendicular to the slope again.
Many people have mentioned this "falling leaf" technique. Is it a standard
lesson for beginners? If so, why didn't we use it?!
Thanks,
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
"Edward Arata" <edward...@mat.ethz.ch> wrote in message
news:400bc3dc$1...@pfaff2.ethz.ch...
> Your absolutely right about the "kids" running the rental place just
handing
> you the equipment and saying go for it. This is also true with lessons
from
> what I have heard. Other than what has been said before, like renting
from
> a small shop the day before, I would suggest taking a person that knows
how
> to board.
I don't know anyone who knows how to snowboard. (My brother and
brother-in-law ski.) I'm in the wrong generation. Snowboarding did not exist
as a mass participation sport when I was growing up. As I'm discovering,
relatively few people seem to take it up as adults.
> I understand that you don't want to hit people as a human projectile. I
> have this issue as well being 6'5" and 200 lbs. So less crowed day would
> help, not to mention non-icy conditions. The snow conditions also have a
> huge impact on learning. Don't learn on ice or deep powder, neither will
be
> much fun. The best I think to learn on is machine packed powder that fell
> within the last 3 or 4 days, so its not too too hard.
That's the snow we would have had if we had gone last Sunday, as I
originally planned. But my son was ill, so we started yesterday instead. I
didn't feel like waiting for ideal conditions that might never arrive, even
assuming I could recognize them.
Joe Ramirez
Bob
> I don't know any snowboarders,
I bet your son does.
Bob
John
from Seven Springs, and can be a lot less crowded.
That's where I learned to ride in my 40s. Ended up on the ski patrol
there, or should I say Boarder Patrol?
Rent from High Mountain Sports (you'll drive right past it on the way
to Wisp) for better gear than at the area.
As nearly everyone else has said, take a lesson, and don't let them
keep you on the most basic bunney slope. You need some slope. Jump on
the chairlift and go. Just remember--the steeper the slope, the
farther you are from an edge-catching slam!
JG, now riding year round on Mt Hood.
Jason Watkins
> ski/board shops in the Pittsburgh metropolitan area seem to focus on
> selling, not renting. Of course, I've never asked. <g>
Most I've been to do. You'd have to check with any particular shop for
the details of pricing and the like. Also, there's rentals and there's
demos. Rentals are just that, an inventory of equipment, probibly all
basicly the same brand and model, that they rent out. Demos are taken
from their sales inventory, so that you can try a particular board,
boot or binding before buying. Usually demo equipment is better, but
it costs more to demo than to rent. Rental equipment should be fine
while you're learning, but I definately think you'll get better
service and more for your money from a shop than from how you
described the resort.
> There's no way we're ready for the "next step" lesson, since we decisively
> failed the first course!
Maybe, but saying "I've had one lesson before" might get you out of
the beginner bucket and into a smaller group. At least at the resort
we lessoned at, there was no difference in price bewtween the beginner
or next step lesson.
> Never did the garland or the falling leaf.
Now we're starting to see something troubling. So the way they tried
to teach you was probibly something like: strap one foot in, glide for
a bit. Now when you glide, try changing direction by pointing where
you want to go with your front hand. Now try with both feet strapped
in. Now try going straight down the hill a little bit, then swing the
board around to stop.
That's the way most people would try to teach your friend. It sort of
works, but it really only gives you a very limited ability to get down
hills or turn the board. It's not until you learn a bit more subtle
balance and how to make the board turn just by shifting weight that
you'll really start to get it. Falling leaf, and then doing garlands
gives you a nice progression. It's how I learned, and I definately
think it's the best way to go about it. If your lesson didn't follow
that progression, that really screams to me that they weren't doing a
good job.
Jason Watkins
> even purchase some stuff.
Actually, I ended up replacing all the stuff I bought originally. I
think when you're beginning you really don't know what kind of gear
you want, and people do vary in what style of equipment they like. So
if you buy, I'd suggest going fairly cheap. Don't get anything so
awful that think it might be a barrier to learning, but also don't go
out and buy top of the line brand new gear.
The exception is boots: if you think you'll stay with it for a bit,
buying a quality pair of boots that fits you well is huge. Boots are
definately the most important: if you have a good connection to a bad
board, you'll still ride ok. If you have a bad connection to a good
board, you'll have a very hard time.
Tips on buying boots could be a whole different thread :P.
Dmitry
"Joe Ramirez" <jra...@attglobal.net> wrote
> Right. I didn't really know what we wanted, except that I wanted it to work.
> But there really isn't much that the clerks can do for one person, because
> they always have to worry about the long line of people waiting for service.
Joe,
Read your story and regretted nobody (me included) tried to really steer
you to the right place/time/equipment/company before. We should have known
better.
Now, looks like you are not quite ready to give up, so here's some advice
that you may find useful.
1. Commit to it. Freaking decide for yourself that you'll make every
effort to snowboard this season. If you're "sport shopping" you're
wasting time. Wrong attitude -> poor results. You probably understand
it better than I do :)
2. Practical stuff: go to a really good specialty snowboard shop (ask
around), make sure the knowledgeable boot fitter will be there when
you show up (call in advance). Buy yourself snowboard boots that fit
(heel lift is a keyword here). Wear them at home as much as you can,
and take them back to the shop for additional fitment if you're not
completely comfortable. I took mine, they used a press to bend the
plastic part in the front of the boot to better suit my feet's shape -
made all the difference. The key here is finding the knowledgeable
people (Borderline Snowboards in Bellevue, WA for me) who can do the
fitting. Budget - around $170 for a pair of decent boots, give or
take.
3. Rent a snowboard/bindings at specialty shop. Ask them what brand
and model boards/bindings do they have, and somebody in this group
will sure tell you what size to get. Price - around $30. Better yet,
buy a used board/bindings from classifieds or eBay, you can find a
very good beginner setup for around $150-200. You'll be able to sell
it next season with little loss when you're ready for better equipment.
4. Strap in at home the evening before you go to the slopes, and try
to envision/teach your muscles how to keep your balance over the board.
Imagine yourself riding, go to sleep trying to "prime" your mind for
the next day's riding.
5. Read a book. It's good to know the theory. "Illustrated guide
to snowboarding" is quite good, your local library probably has one.
It also has a very good beginner "ladder" with drills, pictures, tips
and all the good and useful stuff.
6. It would be best if there's a resort near you (however small -
doesn't matter) that has night runs. Go there after work for a
couple of hours of training one-two days a week. Great way to
get away from busywork, among other things. A book and desire to
learn should be enough, but friends who ride well can help. Learn
at your own pace, set realistic targets for the day. If you get
stuck, bring a video camera and ask someone to take a short video
of your riding, then analyse it at home. Or pay for an instructor.
Or ask here.
Ok, I've checked out 7springs.com and sure enough they have night
runs 'til 10PM. GO FOR IT!
--
Dmitry
David Brown :o)
> lesson for beginners? If so, why didn't we use it?!
If your instructor didn't even mention falling leaf or garlands, then it
looks like your lesson was even worse than I thought.
There are various snowboarding tutorials on the net, I've found some before
with video, so have a search around and read up before you next go (even if
it is for a private lesson).
When I get home I'll see if I have any in my favourites.
--
kitemap
http://ugcc.co.uk
LMG
news:400ca...@news1.prserv.net...
> We were on the beginners' slope, but the problem was that it was teeming
> with beginners! There also seemed to be a lot of skiers "passing through"
on
> their way to someplace else.
>
> is a four-hour drive from here. Anyone been there?
>
My first trip ever was to Snowshoe last March. I'd never been on either
skis or snowboard. I didn't take a lesson, because a friend in my group had
told me her experience with lessons was very similar to yours, and I didn't
want to spend the money for something that might be a waste of time. She
told me to keep the board perpendicular to the slope, and "scrape" down it
until I felt comfortable with my balance on both edges. I spent the
majority of my first day on the hill falling on my butt and/or knees, but by
the end of the day I could "crape down the slope on both heel and toe edges,
and do the "falling leaf" on the green trails there. I didn't figure out
garland turns until the second day. By the night session (6-10pm) at Silver
Creek, I was starting to link skidded turns, and boy was that a relief to my
screaming leg muscles! I returned to Snowshoe three weeks ago for another
3-day trip. It was a weekend, and during the Christmas holiday period, so
it was very, very crowded. The beginner area where lessons are apparently
given is congested and crowded, and much like what you described at
7springs. I always walked or skated past this area to the top of the next
green trail. I encountered several people having a private lesson with a
Snowshoe instructor, and overheard what sounded like pretty decent
instructions and feedback to the rider. On the upside, the Silver Creek
area I mentioned, which is part of the Snowshoe resort but you have to take
a short shuttle bus ride, also has a lesson area. There's also a roped-off
beginner area with rolling carpet type lift and a run-out to keep you from
getting out of control. It's rather short, but if you're just working on
getting your balance it seems much better than the other area. If you go
outside the rope, the slope widens and has a very gentle grade when you are
ready for a longer slope. The key things about Silver Creek is that it's
only open at night from 6-10, it's less crowded, and has a gentler beginner
slope. The only thing I dislike about Snowshoe: it's expensive, from the
lift ticket to the food. I would definitely recommend giving Snowshoe a
try, especially if you can plan to go over to the Silver Creek area, but I
would suggest a weekday if at all possible.
Lynn G.
Baretta
I'm 43 now and took up boarding about 2 years back. Previously, I've skiied
for about 6 years.
During the beginning, I took a lesson for starters but it was just basic -
same thing, slide, glide, try to turn and hope you don't land on your ass
and break any bones. After the first lesson on rental gear, I went out and
bought a inexpensive board and boot package. I didn't bother with any
further lessons out of sheer stubborness, because they weren't teaching me
anything that I couldn't pick up by observing others - hence the longer
learning curve. Yes, after quite a few times of face and ass plants, I had
considered just pitching all the gear and to go back to skiing. Took me
atleast 6 times out before everything just magically clicked one day. PS,
None of the skiing skills are transferable to snowboarding.
Last year, I don't believe I even touched my skii gear. I persevered and am
having a ball snowboarding.
This year, my kids wanted to try snowboarding. They've been skiing for a
couple of years. My 13 year old son gave up the first day and went back to
skiing - couldn't take the falling down aspect. As any teenager, he couldn't
understand why this skill wouldn't come to him so easily. However, my 11
year old daughter stuck with it, just to spite her older brother. Ofcourse,
I did give them tips of what NOT to do as I had done to make things easier.
By the end of the day she was doing the falling leaf and had good edge
control. By the second day, she was linking her turns with confidence. We
even managed to try some of the bigger blue and green runs without problems.
She did try a few quieter blacks with me, just told her to edge/scrape/leaf
down the steeper sections if she felt overwhelmed.
Skiing and snowboarding are great family activities, just hang in there a
little bit longer. As other's have suggested, find a smaller or quieter
resort. I think you'll pick up a lot more from some instructional books and
DVDs than the so called "instructors" at the resorts - lot of them are just
kids who board but don't have the skills to actually teach. Take a day off
with your son during the week (aslong as you or him doesn't have anything
pressing at work or school) and give it another go.
Cheers.
"Joe Ramirez" <jra...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:400b2...@news1.prserv.net...
> A couple of weeks ago, I started a thread here, "Snowboarding or skiing?",
> that generated much discussion and many helpful contributions from group
> members. To recap, I'm 42, my son is 14, and neither of us had ever
> snowboarded before. We decided to give the sport a shot at the Seven
Springs
> resort near us in Pennsylvania. I thought the group might be interested in
> learning how our first day went. Those with a low tolerance for tedium may
> wish to stop reading now.
>
> What went right:
> *After reading about how to dress for the slopes, we bought long
underwear,
> fleece, goggles, snowboarding gloves, etc. We were quite warm today.
> *Our rental boots & boards used step-in bindings, which turned out to be
> invaluable -- not just for getting into the bindings, but also for getting
> out of them. I often found that the only way to get from one place to
> another on the hill was to pick up the board and walk.
> *The snow-covered trees in the mountains southeast of Pittsburgh were very
> pretty.
>
> What went wrong: Just about everything else.
>
Johnny K
busy day), but low and behold, after a few times I got the knack, and
all was good.. I remember when I learned skiing (a long, long, long time
ago), I had group lessons.. I didn't like that so much.. I think I then
got private lessons and started improving..
Joe Ramirez
news:8D4Pb.105603$na.66188@attbi_s04...
There's always a financially based chicken & egg problem associated with
starting any complex, equipment-oriented activity, whether a sport or some
other pasttime. You don't want to spring for expensive gear until you're
sure you'll stay with the activity, but without your own gear it's very hard
to learn enough to get to the point of being able to stay with it. Sometimes
the only solution is to let the spending drive the decision, rather than
vice-versa. Buy the stuff and then you'll be forced to stay with the
activity just to ensure that the money wasn't wasted. <g>
> 4. Strap in at home the evening before you go to the slopes, and try
> to envision/teach your muscles how to keep your balance over the board.
> Imagine yourself riding, go to sleep trying to "prime" your mind for
> the next day's riding.
>
> 5. Read a book. It's good to know the theory. "Illustrated guide
> to snowboarding" is quite good, your local library probably has one.
> It also has a very good beginner "ladder" with drills, pictures, tips
> and all the good and useful stuff.
I am definitely considering this approach.
> 6. It would be best if there's a resort near you (however small -
> doesn't matter) that has night runs. Go there after work for a
> couple of hours of training one-two days a week. Great way to
> get away from busywork, among other things. A book and desire to
> learn should be enough, but friends who ride well can help. Learn
> at your own pace, set realistic targets for the day. If you get
> stuck, bring a video camera and ask someone to take a short video
> of your riding, then analyse it at home. Or pay for an instructor.
> Or ask here.
>
> Ok, I've checked out 7springs.com and sure enough they have night
> runs 'til 10PM. GO FOR IT!
Seven Springs is a little far for a roundtrip on a weekday night, but the
small Boyce Park ski area, which is much closer to home, is also open at
night, I believe. When I was learning to ice skate I would often go at night
after work, so I could probably pull this off.
Thanks for all the helpful advice.
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
news:4LbPb.264110$dl.13...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
How did you like the resort aside from the snowboarding opportunities? Was
it a picturesque place? Fun? Did you try the sleigh or snowmobile rides, or
snow tubing? My wife has no interest in boarding or skiing, so there has to
be some good reacreation for her (as well as for my son and me when we are
not trying to snowboard).
Thanks for your help,
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
> > Never did the garland or the falling leaf.
>
> Now we're starting to see something troubling. So the way they tried
> to teach you was probibly something like: strap one foot in, glide for
> a bit. Now when you glide, try changing direction by pointing where
> you want to go with your front hand. Now try with both feet strapped
> in. Now try going straight down the hill a little bit, then swing the
> board around to stop.
Yep, that was about it. The whole thing seemed rushed to me. To use a
driving analogy, I felt as though I was being asked to pull out into traffic
without having done the foundational work in the empty parking lot to learn
how to control the car.
> That's the way most people would try to teach your friend. It sort of
> works, but it really only gives you a very limited ability to get down
> hills or turn the board. It's not until you learn a bit more subtle
> balance and how to make the board turn just by shifting weight that
> you'll really start to get it. Falling leaf, and then doing garlands
> gives you a nice progression. It's how I learned, and I definately
> think it's the best way to go about it. If your lesson didn't follow
> that progression, that really screams to me that they weren't doing a
> good job.
Now they tell me! <g> Oh well, next time I'll know better.
Thanks,
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
news:_k3Pb.103589$I06.532719@attbi_s01...
Aha! I bet you're right. But I'm not sure I'd want one of them trying to
teach me. <g>
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
news:E3dPb.24676$7JB1....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> Joe, having been through the same experience, I feel for you.
> I'm 43 now and took up boarding about 2 years back. Previously, I've
skiied
> for about 6 years.
> This year, my kids wanted to try snowboarding. They've been skiing for a
> couple of years. My 13 year old son gave up the first day and went back to
> skiing - couldn't take the falling down aspect. As any teenager, he
couldn't
> understand why this skill wouldn't come to him so easily.
I think this was also my son's basic reaction to our first day. We also had
another problem caused by our missing the noon lesson and starting at 2:00
instead -- he had a basketball game that evening, and he was worried we
would miss it if we left the resort too late. So we rushed out, then learned
from my wife on the cell phone that the game had been cancelled. When it
precipitates, it dumps!
Joe Ramirez
LMG
> How did you like the resort aside from the snowboarding opportunities? Was
> it a picturesque place? Fun? Did you try the sleigh or snowmobile rides,
or
> snow tubing? My wife has no interest in boarding or skiing, so there has
to
> be some good reacreation for her (as well as for my son and me when we are
> not trying to snowboard).
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Joe Ramirez
Ok, keep in mind that I have only boarded at Snowshoe and in the Boone area
of North Carolina. That being said, Snowshoe seems very nice in comparison
to the mountains in NC, e.g. three times the number of trails. The mountain
is "upside down", meaning the lodging is at the top of the mountain. The
village area is pretty nice, several restaurants, a comedy club, shops, etc.
I've tried the snow tubing, but not the other activities you mentioned.
Tubing is great fun the first time, but gets old quickly, say after about an
hour or so. The tubing hill is at Silver Creek, BTW. Picturesque? I think
the area is very pretty, and if you stay at one of the rooms/condos in the
village, there are some terrific views. Hiking is also available.
Lynn
Han Solo (D)
> Where do you teach?
Europe, South Germany, at my Home Town, and at University where I'm
studying at the moment (which is, on trips they organize).
Martin
Jürgen Schmadlak
> Seven Springs is a little far for a roundtrip on a weekday night, but the
> small Boyce Park ski area, which is much closer to home, is also open at
> night, I believe. When I was learning to ice skate I would often go at night
> after work, so I could probably pull this off.
There are many ways to start snowboarding. For me wintersport must be
*relaxing*. Drive to the mountains after work and go back on the same
day is not my way of relaxing.
What about a week/weekend in a nice Apartment near by the slope? If
you spend a week and *really* don't like boarding after one or two days
you can spend the rest of the time with walking/relaxing/sleigh-ride
or anything you like.
What can you loose? OK, the money for the rented equipment. But you win a
nice holiday with your wife and your son.
--
Jürgen Schmadlak
Baretta
> If you understand how to turn a ski, turning a snowboard is very, very
> similar. I remember being shocked at just how similar the two sports
> were.
You may be right on some accounts, but when you're trying to teach a
beginner, it's a lot easier if they forget what they know about skiing and
start from scratch. Remember the french fries and pizza that they taught 8)
? - I couldn't think of anything equivalent in snowboarding. Just scrape to
stop.
When applied to beginners:
In skiing, if you're skiis are flat, no problem, but if you kept your board
flat, you'll eventually catch an edge and dump. I am constantly reminding
newbies: If you go Flat - you'll fall - stay on the edge.
People had a tendency to want to face the direction they are travelling in
like skiing, eventually subconciously untwisting their body and bringing the
back around, which often resulted in catching the toe edge.
The boarders are also at a disadvantage since their feet are strapped in, in
skiing you had the ability to spread your legs to balance things out. I
guess in skiing, it was easier to control balance with your lower half while
boarding you're using your upper or whole body sometimes.
I agree with you about the carving and unweighting of the board during
turns, but that skill is developed at a more advanced stage. The beginner is
still trying to master edge control when trying to link their turns.
However, I've just picked up a hard boot alpine setup this year - I think
that is incredibly similar to skiing than the softies. I must say the speed
is soooo addictive on a well groomed slope.
Barney
> Snip
>
> > If you understand how to turn a ski, turning a snowboard is very, very
> > similar. I remember being shocked at just how similar the two sports
> > were.
>
> You may be right on some accounts, but when you're trying to teach a
> beginner, it's a lot easier if they forget what they know about skiing and
> start from scratch. Remember the french fries and pizza that they taught
I thought that was just from South Park!
Sharkie
It shouldn't. Students should not get on a lift until
they know how to sideslip. Some students get the sideslip
part on their first lesson, a lot don't.
Sideslip allows you to control your speed, which is the major
concern of the original poster (as it should). Hills usually
do not have same descent, there are steeper parts as well as more
flat. On the steeper parts, student can safely sideslip w/o
risking maneuvers with too much speed.
Once the sideslip is mastered, it should be then expanded to
falling leaf, which will allow to control direction as well.
Only then should a student start thinking about linking turns.
Seems like a very important step in his learning curve was skipped.
(waiving no-no finger to his instructor :)
> Learning to snowboard is all
> about having enough slope.
After a certain point, yes. However, to learn balance
a lot of slope is not necessary. Straight glides, and basic turns
can be practiced on very small slopes. These two maneuvers should
be practiced until students have balance and confidence to go further.
More slope will be needed to practice sideslips. How much slope depends
on the snow. Soft fresh snow is slower, and edging much easier - so
more slope. On icy conditions however, not only will the board move
much faster, but edging requires much more effort - so less slope.
Remember people learn much faster if they are confident in what they
are doing. Having too much slope for a beginning snowboarder will
take that confidence away.
Sharkie
> I sent Seven Springs an e-mail with an abridged version of the report I
> posted here. No response so far, and I'm really not expecting one.
Yes, but if you mention that you're a guy who starts huge threads on
the internet (making their resort very infamous for the internet
community), they will probably be more responsive... :)
Sharkie
> "Joe Ramirez" <jra...@attglobal.net> wrote in message news:<400b2...@news1.prserv.net>...
>(Instructors
> rarely admit to this since they see only the carnage of self-teaching
> gone bad...the ones that get through it don't come crawling to them! :)
A lot of people self learn snowboarding. I like to observe riders
on the slope when I'm on the chair lift. I can with pretty good accuracy
tell who is a self learner. There are a lot of small details that self
learners do "wrong" - things that they repeat over and over that will
hinder their progression. Not only that, but their riding is generally
less effective, they put much more energy than necessary.
Check out really good riders: very relaxed, with style, and effective.
If you learn how to ride effectively, you will last much longer,
and enjoy this sport so much more. But in order to get there you need
someone from the side telling you about your stance and movements.
Sharkie
> It seems to me that hand holding is an obviously useful tool that could help
> all beginners. At least some instructors apparently use it:
> http://atearl.com/ski/snowboard_lesson4.html
Hey, I see you found Charles Roberts, he's very good and experienced
instructor. I know him personally.
Here's the thing you must understand about snowboard instructors
at various resorts. For many years resorts didn't have enough
instructors. The end result was it was very easy to sign up as one.
A lot of kids (15 - 18yo) signed up because of free lift tickets
and some other perks. And after a very basic training they were sent
to teach. Most of them were excellent riders, but had no
teaching skills, nor the technical knowledge behind the sport.
The situation has improved over the years, instructor training has
become much better. If you want to make sure you'll receive quality
instruction, have a private lesson and ask for (the magic words):
"PSIA certified instructor" (at least level I, but level III is the best).
Certified instructors have gone through various clinics and training
and are very well prepared to teach students of all levels.
> But I suppose it [hand holding] might be hard to use in a group lesson.
Depends on how big of a group it is. The idea of hand holding
is not to make student dependent on it, but to get started with new maneuvers.
Once a student is "getting it", the instructor is there only to do
small corrections and prevent falling.
Johnny K
both legs to move it.. I've skiied for about 15 years or so.. (well, not
entirely true, I started when i was 4 (I'm now 22), but stopped quite a
few years ago).. I find them very similar..
Baka Dasai wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:55:00 GMT, Baretta said (and I quote):
>
>>PS, None of the skiing skills are transferable to snowboarding.
>>
>
> I totally disagree. I learnt snowboarding after about 20 years of
> skiing (I was an expert skier), and from the first run was mentally
> translating the technique in my head.
>
> I knew I had to unweight the ski/board, tilt the ski/board to get it
> on edge, pressure the front of the ski/board, and gently swing the
> tail around. I could immediately do all these things on a snowboard,
> but at first the timing and coordination was all wrong. But it only
> took two runs to get it mostly worked out, and then I was off to
> explore the whole mountain.
Joe Ramirez
news:gpblub...@news.msc-ge.com...
> Joe Ramirez <jra...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > Seven Springs is a little far for a roundtrip on a weekday night, but
the
> > small Boyce Park ski area, which is much closer to home, is also open at
> > night, I believe. When I was learning to ice skate I would often go at
night
> > after work, so I could probably pull this off.
>
> There are many ways to start snowboarding. For me wintersport must be
> *relaxing*. Drive to the mountains after work and go back on the same
> day is not my way of relaxing.
I agree with you. However, Boyce Park is closer than Seven Springs. It's not
really in the mountains -- it's just a big hill in the suburbs of
Pittsburgh.
>
> What about a week/weekend in a nice Apartment near by the slope? If
> you spend a week and *really* don't like boarding after one or two days
> you can spend the rest of the time with walking/relaxing/sleigh-ride
> or anything you like.
>
> What can you loose? OK, the money for the rented equipment. But you win a
> nice holiday with your wife and your son.
Actually, we are considering something like this. At first I thought about
going to Snowshoe, West Virginia, which is one of the largest and highest
(maybe *the* highest) ski resorts in the eastern United States, but then I
saw a brochure at a local ski & board shop for a great trip to Lake Louise &
Banff in early April. Low price and stays at the Chateau Lake Louise and the
Fairmont Banff Springs. We love that area and are seriously tempted.
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
news:Xns94775CDFF552Fmr...@141.24.4.8...
Ah -- the Fatherland. You may not be able to tell from my last name, but I'm
German and Swiss-German on my mother's side. I've been to Germany a couple
of times on vacation -- what's the name of your town?
Joe Ramirez
Joe Ramirez
news:423b5ab1.04012...@posting.google.com...
Well ... in fact, I did mention in my e-mail to the resort that it was an
abridged version of a report I had posted on Usenet. And, contrary to my
expectations, Seven Springs *has* responded, very nicely. See new thread.
Joe Ramirez
Han Solo (D)
>> > Where do you teach?
>>
>> Europe, South Germany, at my Home Town, and at University where I'm
>> studying at the moment (which is, on trips they organize).
>
> Ah -- the Fatherland. You may not be able to tell from my last name,
> but I'm German and Swiss-German on my mother's side. I've been to
> Germany a couple of times on vacation -- what's the name of your town?
*g*, no, your name points more into mexican origins...
well, I lived in a small town near Ulm, but now I study in middle Germany
near Erfurt, Thuringia.
Martin
Jürgen Schmadlak
> (maybe *the* highest) ski resorts in the eastern United States, but then I
> saw a brochure at a local ski & board shop for a great trip to Lake Louise &
> Banff in early April. Low price and stays at the Chateau Lake Louise and the
> Fairmont Banff Springs. We love that area and are seriously tempted.
and, you meet a lot of nice people when you go boarding with a
group. I always enjoy this kind of trips.
--
Satisfy your thirst for life!
NP: Peter Gabriel - Shaking the Tree
Joe Ramirez
> "Joe Ramirez" <jra...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >> > Where do you teach?
> >>
> >> Europe, South Germany, at my Home Town, and at University where I'm
> >> studying at the moment (which is, on trips they organize).
> >
> > Ah -- the Fatherland. You may not be able to tell from my last name,
> > but I'm German and Swiss-German on my mother's side. I've been to
> > Germany a couple of times on vacation -- what's the name of your town?
>
> *g*, no, your name points more into mexican origins...
Actually, Guatemalan on my father's side, but there are certainly plenty of
people named "Ramirez" in Mexico as well.
> well, I lived in a small town near Ulm, but now I study in middle Germany
> near Erfurt, Thuringia.
>
> Martin
I don't think I've ever been to Erfurt, unless it was just passing through,
but I have visited Ulm. I climbed the magnificent cathedral there when I was
12. Going up was pretty easy, but coming down hurt a little. All those stone
steps are hard on the knees. Wasn't Ulm also Einstein's hometown?
Joe Ramirez
Stephan Schulz
>"ACey" <ajc...@chopthisout.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
>news:Xns9475AC23E5C...@131.111.8.69...
>>
>> This might have been a double-edged sword. Sure step-ins are convenient,
>> but they can also be a bit 'floppy' - I'm guessing that they are the
>> Rossi/Emory ones with a bar that sticks out either side of the boot?
>> These are very common on rental boards and really do suck, as they wear
>> very quickly and once worn are really imprecise.
>
>Yes, that's the kind they were. However, I didn't have a problem with the
>bindings. They were easy to use and seemed effective, as least for someone
>at my non-level.
Are you certain about that? There are a couple of problems with these
step-ins. The binding should not just connect the boot to the board,
it should do it in a way that there is no wiggle room. Otherwise it is
very easy to catch an edge (and fall). Moreover, with a step-in, all
the force has to be transmitted from your foot to the boot, then to
your binding, then to the board. Hence you have to tie up the boot
very tightly, which often is painful. If you have a soft boot set up,
the straps (or strap for Flow) will take some of the force (which the
boot just spreads), so many people feel more comfortable.
>> From your experience's I guess you won't be too keen on spending more
>> money on the sport, but if you do decide to persevere (and you should -
>> it can only get better) really think about getting your own boots. They
>> needn't be expensive ones, just a pair of basic softboots.
>
>I will definitely have to consider this. Rental stuff is always somewhere
>between adequate and bad. It's never good.
Never say never. I spend my first week on a Palmer Clown with
step-ins. It was kind of ok, but not great. The next time, I got a old
Rossignol board, soft, 155 cm (I'm 6 ft, 220 lb on a good day), with
well-worn step-ins and half-broken boots. It was sheer hell - I could
not do anything with that board, and my feet went from hurting to
bleeding in one day. I was ready to give up on boarding, but I had
already arranged for yet another weekend.
That time I got a Blax Dimensional in the right size, with a Flow
binding and _comfortable_ Flow boots. It was amazing - I was in total
control, linking turns like never before, and really flying down the
slope.
After one more mixed experience with rentals (decent board, but very
soft boots) I broke down and got my own gear (a Rossignol Levitation,
with Flow binding and boots). Having adequate gear makes a real
difference, and in my opinion even (or particularly) for a beginner.
>> Couple of other things:
[...]
Let me add onw more thing: Rest and sleeping are really important for
learning, at least for me. I'm always much better the morning after a
lesson than directly after it. Your brain needs time to process the
information, and your muscles need time to relax and uncramp.
You might also try to go without your son, so you can concentrate on
your own performance more. He is likely to outpace you eventually
anyways (with 30 years and 30 pounds advantage ;-).
Good luck, and try to keep it up. There are few things as enjoyable as
riding down a mountain in glorious sunshine on a nice board.
Bye,
Stephan
--
-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
Please email me as sch...@informatik.tu-muenchen.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephan Schulz
<slrnc2728s.h0e...@yahoobb220004112021.bbtec.net>, Baka
Dasai wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 18:11:21 +0000 (UTC), Stephan Schulz said (and I quote):
>> step-ins. The binding should not just connect the boot to the board,
>> it should do it in a way that there is no wiggle room. Otherwise it is
>> very easy to catch an edge (and fall). Moreover, with a step-in, all
>> the force has to be transmitted from your foot to the boot, then to
>> your binding, then to the board. Hence you have to tie up the boot
>> very tightly, which often is painful. If you have a soft boot set up,
>> the straps (or strap for Flow) will take some of the force (which the
>> boot just spreads), so many people feel more comfortable.
>
>of a similar size and shape to the ankle strap on a regular strap
>binding?
In my experience (limited, since I moved to a Flow setup after my
first season), those straps are mostly decorative (they may help if
you are lousy at lacing up). And at least for me, heel lift is much
more a problem for the hind foot. That foot is in the boot all the
time, but out of the binding a lot, so you can stand more pressure
from the binding straps than you could from a shoe strap.
And of course that extra strap is useless for the boot/binding
interface.
Bob
"Stephan Schulz" <sch...@sunbroy2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de>
wrote in message
>
> In my experience (limited, since I moved to a Flow setup after
my
> first season), those straps are mostly decorative (they may
help if
> you are lousy at lacing up). And at least for me, heel lift is
much
> more a problem for the hind foot. That foot is in the boot all
the
> time, but out of the binding a lot, so you can stand more
pressure
> from the binding straps than you could from a shoe strap.
Another issue with step-ins. At least on my boots, there is no
adjustment for forward lean. I got video'ed last saturday, and
one point made to me was that my legs were way too straight to
get the heelside edge set. I need more forward lean at the ankle
to allow me to flex down more. Time for different boots and
bindings.
Bob