Slipping turn vs. carving turn revisited
taichiskiing
serious debates with some EpicSki's bears, (who advertising themselves
as the "orthodox" PSIA pro/teaching/skiing,) with their jargons
skidded-carve, scarve, skarve, or brushed-carve, as well as
Railroad-Track (RRT), and Arc-to-Arc, etc., etc., flying all over the
places, all carving turn variant techniques, I was only then realized
that most American skiers, at least, in the PSIA strain of skiing, has
little or no concept of "slipping turn." And every time you talk about
the "slipping turn," most people responded would turn the subject into
the "skidding turn," and bashing or thrashing about. Can't blame them
though, for PSIA has never taught them or developed/utilized the
concept of the "slipping turn." As the "slipping turn," as in
physics/physical sense, is as fundamental as a functional ski design,
not sure is PSIA overlooked its functionality, or they don't like to
play a full deck?
What is a "slipping turn"?
According to physics laws of motion, an object traveling in a curved
path exhibits three kinds of turn: a balanced turn, a skidded turn, and
a slipped turn. A balanced turn is when the object follows the curved
path in sync, a skidded turn turns more than the curved path
(over-turn), and a slipped turn turns less than the curved path
(under-turn). In skiing, a carved turn, where the skis' tails
follows/travels through the same space as the tips, is a balanced turn.
A skidded turn, with the skis' tails travel outward (outside of the
curved path) faster than the tips, result in an over-turn (changing too
much a direction). A slipped turn, with the skis' tips travel outward
faster than the tails, doesn't turn enough, so it's an under-turn (not
enough direction changing).
Given the characteristics of these three turns, a carved turn maintains
its turning ability without losing its speed, so it's highly prized
technique, and every body likes to "talk" about it. Nevertheless, few
see the caveat that the skier must continue to turn to carve, thus
reduces the skier's forward speed.
Most of parallel turns are done with various skidded turn, where
skidding serves dual purposes of braking and turning. When done it
properly, a skidded parallel turn has better speed and line control
abilities, thus, it's an effective and efficient, as well as an elegant
technique. However, as "skidding" is rated as low level technique,
people are, in general, shunned about "talking"/"studying" about it.
So, in a way, most of them have never really learned the proper
function, or techniques, of the skidding or skidded parallel turn.
While both skidding and slipping rob the speed/energy of the ski,
however, slipping turn differs from the skidding turn is that slipping
turn, due to its under-turn, skis a straighter line than the carving
turn, so it may maintain a higher "forward"/"downward" speed. Slipped
turn is not necessarily slower than the carved turn. So how's the rest
of technique stack up vs. carving turn?
Why "slipping turn"?
As a slipped turn slides with the gravity, it is easy to initiate, to
perform, so it's an easier technique than carving turn. As slipping
turn is a docile technique, which also makes it a safer technique than
carving turn. The carving technique is "fighting" (by the virtue of
"carving") the gravity, when the turn goes sour the natural tendency is
to fight it with skidding, and skidding, as it over-turns, exaggerates
the "fighting" even more, and when it fails, the tails of the skis wash
out downward and the skier falls backward, there's no recovery from
this kind of mishap. Moreover, one of major causes of serve skiing
injure accidence is the skier tumbles heels over head and loses control
of the skis when s/he gets caught on an edge, intentionally or not.
Carving turn's "carving" technique only exposes the skier more to that
danger. On the other hand, with slipping turn one may recover a turn
gone sour by a pair of strong legs (to maintain the balance as the
skier slides). And when it fails, the skier only slides some more and
the "fall" would not be "heels over head." Slipping turn is a safer
technique than carving turn.
How to "slipping turn"?
Slipping turn is easier to explain with an example of "straightlining."
With two skis parallel, flat, and equally weighed on the snow, a skier
travels straight. If the skier is to slip a ski (say left ski), so the
left ski slows down a bit, however, the right ski remains on its
original speed, the different speed of the two skis causes the two
skis' track to turn left. If the skier has maintained the balance on
the skis, s/he would have turned. Then, how to slip a ski? Put the
outside edge (in relation to the skier's body/foot) of the inside ski
(in relation to the turn) at an angle to the line that the ski is
traveling on. The bigger the angle displays more deviation power; more
deviation power, the bigger the turn. Another way of saying/doing is to
think/treat the two skis with their functions: one "braker," and one
"runner." As braker slips it brakes the speed of that ski while the
runner runs flat, so it is faster than the braker; as the skis' track
turn, so is the skier.
The slipping turn is initiated on the inside ski, balanced on the hip
angulation, and skis faster on a straighter line, so it is simple,
efficient, and fast, one versatile technique for all-mountain
free-skiing.
Your thought?
:)
IS
dizzy
news:1162252067.5...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Slipping turn? Never heard about it? You're probably right. After some
> serious debates with some EpicSki's bears, (who advertising themselves
> as the "orthodox" PSIA pro/teaching/skiing,) with their jargons
> skidded-carve, scarve, skarve, or brushed-carve, as well as
> Railroad-Track (RRT), and Arc-to-Arc, etc., etc., flying all over the
> places, all carving turn variant techniques, I was only then realized
> that most American skiers, at least, in the PSIA strain of skiing, has
> little or no concept of "slipping turn."
<snip>
> Your thought?
The wind was flapping a temple flag. Two monks were arguing about it. One
said the flag was moving; the other said the wind was moving. Arguing back
and forth they could come to no agreement. The Sixth Patriarch said: "It is
neither the wind nor the flag that is moving. It is your mind that is
moving".
taichiskiing
That's a very enlightening story, thanks.
Do you slipping turn?
:)
IS
dizzy
> That's a very enlightening story, thanks.
>
> Do you slipping turn?
No, thanks.
taichiskiing
So it's enlightening but no enlightenment, eh?
Actually, the mechanics of slipping turn is way easy than carving turn;
all you need to do is to get used to "stand" on your little ball of
your inside foot and maintain the balance and let the gravity to do its
work. Yes, that's "ride the skis."
When you are able to "surf" the gravity, the skiing reaches to a new
high.
Flatboarding, anyone? :)
IS
Marty
Snip...
> ...one versatile technique for all-mountain
> free-skiing.
>
> Your thought?
I agree. It can be another useful skill in a good skiers bad of tricks
for all-mountain free skiing. Why in every free run I take, I may
carve most of my turns, slip a few skids in there, point'em straight
down the hill here and there, and maybe even slip a few turns. It's
all good when all-mountain free skiing. Nobody should be locked into
one type of turn style or one body position. Skiing is a dynamic
sport.
--
Marty
taichiskiing
> taichiskiing wrote:
>
> Snip...
>
> > ...one versatile technique for all-mountain
> > free-skiing.
> >
> > Your thought?
>
> I agree. It can be another useful skill in a good skiers bad of tricks
> for all-mountain free skiing. Why in every free run I take, I may
> carve most of my turns, slip a few skids in there, point'em straight
> down the hill here and there, and maybe even slip a few turns. It's
> all good when all-mountain free skiing.
It is, nevertheless, that's why I was wondering why the slipping turn
was never been taught or discussed.
> Nobody should be locked into
> one type of turn style or one body position.
Yes, and no, I like to track my own ski tracks (contour skiing) when I
ski on blues, so it's "one body position" all over again; that is, I'd
probably use the same technique at the same place in both runs, so to
produce a set of parallel tracks.
> Skiing is a dynamic sport.
It is, but more obvious with the technique "ride the skis," where the
skiing is done by shifting weight, i.e. moving the body core/Center of
Gravity (CoG), to lead the turns. And the feet/skis then do whatever
necessary to catch up and to maintain a comfortable support of the CoG,
and since the balance is hinged on the moving CoG, so "ride the skis"
skis/rides with a dynamic balance. That is one style that fits in all
all-mountain free skiing.
:)
IS
> --
> Marty
VtSkier
(snip)
> It is, nevertheless, that's why I was wondering why the slipping turn
> was never been taught or discussed.
Ichin Shen,
Good morning.
Guess it's time for me to jump in here again.
First let's get some terms straight.
IIRC, A carved turn would be what my PSIA friends call
a "rail" turn or a "pure carved" turn. A turn with next
to no skidding of any kind wherein the skis arc around
depending on the side cut and bend to describe the arc
radius.
Then,
A skidded turn is a turn in which the tip edges are
engaged and the radius of the turn is described by moving
the tails of the skis outward by some mechanism to make
a turn.
In both of the turns above, there is a constant or
DECREASING radius in the turn. The carved turn doesn't
scrub off speed and so to use it to slow down you
must continue your turn well across the fall line to
lengthen your path. The skidded turn scrubs off speed
quite efficiently and therein lies its main value. You
can stay pretty much in the fall line while maintaining
speed control.
You have characterized a skidded turn as like a car
which oversteers in a corner. The rear end hangs out.
And the last,
Is a "slipped" turn. You have characterized this as
like a car which understeers. That is the tendency
of the FRONT wheels to skid, causing the car to seem
to go straight regardless of steering wheel input. It's
not really that, that's just the driver's impression.
Automotive writers are some of the best in the world.
40 years ago I read a description of understeer vs.
oversteer, or rather the impression each gives.
The writer said that two people go for a "brisk" ride
in a car. If the passenger is scared, the car oversteers,
if the driver is scared, the car understeers.
Now, back to skiing. Again, if I remember, your
description of a "slipped" turn is where the tips or
rather the front half of the skis skid and the the
turn radius INCREASES. In other words, it's an
"anti-turn" meant to bring you back into the fall
line or perhaps do some other correction you might
feel is necessary, like a better line on a bump
or some such.
Once we can speak the same language I think it will
be easier to discuss the merits of various turns AND
combinations of turns. A good place to start, yes?
That will keep us from yelling at each other regarding
the meaning of words.
(snip the rest)
VtSkier
Walt
> taichiskiing wrote:
> (snip)
>
> Once we can speak the same language I think it will
> be easier to discuss the merits of various turns AND
> combinations of turns. A good place to start, yes?
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Donec gravida,
sapien nec pretium pretium, sem nibh egestas tortor, vitae dapibus est
felis non justo. Fusce enim velit, lobortis sit amet, sodales quis,
viverra vitae, ante. Suspendisse potenti. Sed porttitor turpis at erat.
Proin rutrum risus ac enim. Sed a nunc. Vivamus porta fringilla enim.
Integer id tortor ut massa pulvinar ullamcorper. Pellentesque ipsum
lorem, venenatis non, fermentum sit amet, congue at, nunc. Mauris id
augue ut risus mollis tincidunt. Nunc vel erat. In hac habitasse platea
dictumst. Suspendisse et dolor at sem ultricies congue. Curabitur
placerat consectetuer libero. Curabitur tincidunt, justo et placerat
pellentesque, magna orci placerat ipsum, quis malesuada sem urna
ultrices tortor. Aliquam ut massa. Aenean vitae lorem. Sed felis velit,
facilisis nec, facilisis ac, egestas eu, urna.
Curabitur volutpat. Suspendisse pretium feugiat pede. Praesent velit
purus, vestibulum ac, vulputate at, tempus vitae, nisl. Suspendisse
ultrices leo ultrices leo. Aliquam erat volutpat. Nam aliquam lorem ut
metus. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Nullam
felis purus, dictum nec, placerat in, semper commodo, sem. Integer ante
lacus, vestibulum sit amet, lacinia accumsan, lobortis nec, mauris.
Aliquam eget massa a lectus sagittis varius. Vestibulum ut quam in elit
facilisis posuere. Duis molestie adipiscing nulla. Nulla a mi id sem
sodales consectetuer.
Suspendisse gravida ligula eu neque. Aenean eros nulla, fringilla at,
interdum quis, cursus eu, felis. Nulla eget enim sit amet mi lacinia
sagittis. Nunc congue imperdiet massa. Nulla nonummy nibh vitae leo.
Etiam massa lectus, elementum ac, aliquet nec, consequat nec, ligula.
Donec interdum, nisl a nonummy elementum, odio nisi pharetra leo, non
interdum ligula felis nec quam. Praesent eu ante ac orci volutpat
dapibus. Nunc lectus neque, nonummy sed, scelerisque ac, pellentesque
eget, eros. Nulla a sem. Nunc sem lorem, sodales eget, sodales in,
euismod et, nulla.
//Walt
VtSkier
Walt, you are clearly a wiseass and I'd love to meet you someday.
Walt
> Walt, you are clearly a wiseass and I'd love to meet you someday.
I'd be happy to give you a tour of Mt Trashmore if you find yourself out
this way. Of course do realize that the last time I tried this with
someone from RSA he practically wept before he turned tail and ran.
//Walt
VtSkier
if given a choice, you go west. You "can" drive from
Michigan to here if you want a road trip.
Should you do this, give me a couple of days notice
offgroup at mistypndATvermontelDOTnet.
taichiskiing
> taichiskiing wrote:
> (snip)
>
> > It is, nevertheless, that's why I was wondering why the slipping turn
> > was never been taught or discussed.
>
> Ichin Shen,
> Good morning.
Good morning to you too, VtSkier.
> Guess it's time for me to jump in here again.
Welcome.
Yes, methinks that you got the drift now. The turn characteristics, as
physics described, apply to driving a car as well. When driving
downhill on a winding mountain road, around a curve, if the car travels
parallel to the center/yellow line, the car is in a balanced turn, and
the driver may feel "seat heavy" somewhat; if the driver side's rear
wheel crosses the center/yellow line, the car is in "skidding," where
the driver may feel getting "pinned" to the door; if the car drifts to
the shoulder, as cutting a corner, the car is "slipping." Driving down
a mountain road is like skiing a line. :)
Driving is a kind of flatboarding as well, :)
IS
>
> (snip the rest)
>
> VtSkier
Richard Henry
taichiskiing wrote:
> Driving is a kind of flatboarding as well, :)
No, it's not.
Walt
> Walt wrote:
>
>>I'd be happy to give you a tour of Mt Trashmore if you find yourself out
>>this way.
> Say, are there maybe some steep skiing clinics there that I could enroll
> in so that I could get a little mentoring and coaching? I might be
> interested in that...if it's not, like, *too* advanced.
Yeah, but you wouldn't like it. They'd make you fix those broken heels
of yours before they'd let you in the class.
> And one little sob can hardly be characterized as weeping.
You know, this isn't the first time I've been called one little S.O.B.
> Wiseass.
That too.
//Walt
taichiskiing
Well, guess that depends on your perception on what a "sliding" sport
is. Next time when you come down on a mountain road, try driving with
the "cruise control" set on the posted speed limit and drive adjusted
to the recommended corner speed, see how it runs.
Your intent and excution, steering right to turn right and steering
left to left, just like the flatboarding, (which is right ski heavy to
turn right and left ski heavy to turn left,) and if you stay on the
speed limit and recommended corner speed, and without traffic, you may
not even need to touch the brake. And that is a cruising on
flatboarding.
Have fun, :)
IS
TexasSkiNut
Well, maybe...it all depends on how you wave your arms.
taichiskiing
"The wind was flapping a temple flag. Two monks were arguing about it.
One said the flag was moving; the other said the wind was moving.
Arguing back and forth they could come to no agreement. The Sixth
Patriarch said: 'It is neither the wind nor the flag that is moving. It
is your mind that is moving'."
--dizzy--
:)
IS
Richard Henry
Perhaps I could interest you in a highway safety public service
program? All you have to do is post on this newsgroup every week the
date, approximate time, and highways you will be using in the mountains
this winter.
Walt
Arguing back and forth they could come to no agreement. Finally, Walt
said: 'It is neither the wind nor the flag that is moving. It
is your mouth that is moving'."
//Walt
taichiskiing
Why, do you need help to distinguish the auto traffic on a highway and
the ski traffic on the mountain?
:)
IS
taichiskiing
"Walt said:..."? Yup, your mouth is moving.
:)
IS
>
> //Walt
VtSkier
<snork><cough><wheeze><choke>
Uhm, Ichin?
Look at what you wrote again.
In a car you steer (turn the wheel) left to
turn left. One of the results of this action
will be that that the RIGHT side of the car
will be "heavy".
The same is true for skiing. You weight
your RIGHT ski to turn left (presuming
that you are skiing frontwards, which
must be stipulated these days of double tip
skis).
If you do what you wrote, you are doing
royals (royal christies, or ruel christies). Or some
intermediate step toward that move. To be a royal, of
course, your downhill leg would be out at a 90 degree
angle, but skiing on the uphill ski works, but not
well as a constant diet.
http://eng.proz.com/kudoz/1219123
The royal christie, in it's most elegant form, is a christie (turn) on
the uphill edge of the uphill ski with the downhill ski carried
gracefully in the air with the leg bent to a 90 degree angle as in a
roundhouse karate kick. It is an "old school" technique, but still very
useful as a drill to promote inclination to initiate a turn, no matter
what type of equipment you're on.
This is what the ballet skiers of the 60's-70's were doing.
Sometimes they would do 360's down the hill in a royal
position. Looked great. See if you can find some old footage
of Suzy Chaffee. SHE looked great doing these turns down the
hill. There was also a little Swiss guy I knew back then who
worked for Hart ski and did some wonderful demos of ski ballet
before it became an olympic event. I think it's since been
dropped as an event but it's still part of the past.
RW
Sam Seiber
> Why, do you need help to distinguish the auto traffic on a highway and
> the ski traffic on the mountain?
Oh, I dunno. At times it feels the same on a busy run as it does on the
I-70 Autobahn getting to the slopes.
Sam "Drive fast, honk often" Seiber
The Real Bev
And then the ice weasels came...
--
Cheers, Bev
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq. Why don't
we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys,
it's worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it any more.
Bob F
"Walt" <walt_...@SHOESyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > "The wind was flapping a temple flag. Two monks were arguing about it.
> > One said the flag was moving; the other said the wind was moving.
> > Arguing back and forth they could come to no agreement. The Sixth
> > Patriarch said: 'It is neither the wind nor the flag that is moving. It
> > is your mind that is moving'."
>
> "The wind was flapping a temple flag. Two monks were arguing about it.
> One said the flag was moving; the other said the wind was moving.
> Arguing back and forth they could come to no agreement. Finally, Walt
> said: 'It is neither the wind nor the flag that is moving. It
> is your mouth that is moving'."
LOL - thanks Walt.
Bob
bdubya
wrote:
>The writer said that two people go for a "brisk" ride
>in a car. If the passenger is scared, the car oversteers,
>if the driver is scared, the car understeers.
Alternately, if you hit the wall tail-first, that's oversteer;
nose-first, that's understeer.
bw
taichiskiing
Yes, you're right; I missed to specify the direction in my "around a
curve" example, which is curved to the right.
>
> The same is true for skiing. You weight
> your RIGHT ski to turn left (presuming
> that you are skiing frontwards, which
> must be stipulated these days of double tip
> skis).
Ahh, here's the tricky part. Firstly, as I have specified that
flatboarding uses "inside" ski (dominant) turn, so I'd turn right when
my right ski heavy, which is different from your "outside" ski dominant
turn. However, secondly, how do you "weigh" that [outside] ski, as you
have to move your weight [inside] into the turn, which is opposite
direction from the force that you applied to the outside ski?
>
> If you do what you wrote, you are doing
> royals (royal christies, or ruel christies). Or some
> intermediate step toward that move. To be a royal, of
> course, your downhill leg would be out at a 90 degree
> angle, but skiing on the uphill ski works, but not
> well as a constant diet.
Actually, I've never learned what that royal something is, only do my
free skiing,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_tcsl.avi
and I do use flatboarding on almost all my skiing,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_freeskiingl.wmv
>
> http://eng.proz.com/kudoz/1219123
> The royal christie, in it's most elegant form, is a christie (turn) on
> the uphill edge of the uphill ski with the downhill ski carried
> gracefully in the air with the leg bent to a 90 degree angle as in a
> roundhouse karate kick. It is an "old school" technique, but still very
> useful as a drill to promote inclination to initiate a turn, no matter
> what type of equipment you're on.
>
> This is what the ballet skiers of the 60's-70's were doing.
> Sometimes they would do 360's down the hill in a royal
> position. Looked great. See if you can find some old footage
> of Suzy Chaffee. SHE looked great doing these turns down the
> hill. There was also a little Swiss guy I knew back then who
> worked for Hart ski and did some wonderful demos of ski ballet
> before it became an olympic event. I think it's since been
> dropped as an event but it's still part of the past.
Ya, I've seen her movie "fire and ice," I was quite impressed with her
skills and grace, nevertheless, they're kind of too "ci-ci" to me, so
I've never learned the ballet skiing. I'm flattered that you think my
skiing is compatible to hers. However, the difference is that
flatboarding is current and onto the future.
'later, :)
IS
> RW
taichiskiing
> taichiskiing wrote:
> > TexasSkiNut wrote:
> >> Richard Henry wrote:
> >> > taichiskiing wrote:
> >> > > Driving is a kind of flatboarding as well, :)
> >> >
> >> > No, it's not.
> >>
> >> Well, maybe...it all depends on how you wave your arms.
> >
> > "The wind was flapping a temple flag. Two monks were arguing about it.
> > One said the flag was moving; the other said the wind was moving.
> > Arguing back and forth they could come to no agreement. The Sixth
> > Patriarch said: 'It is neither the wind nor the flag that is moving. It
> > is your mind that is moving'."
>
> And then the ice weasels came...
Weasels in, weasels out?
:)
IS
>
> --
> Cheers, Bev
lal_truckee
>
> http://eng.proz.com/kudoz/1219123
> The royal christie, in it's most elegant form, is a christie (turn) on
> the uphill edge of the uphill ski with the downhill ski carried
> gracefully in the air with the leg bent to a 90 degree angle as in a
> roundhouse karate kick. It is an "old school" technique, but still very
> useful as a drill to promote inclination to initiate a turn, no matter
> what type of equipment you're on.
>
> This is what the ballet skiers of the 60's-70's were doing.
> Sometimes they would do 360's down the hill in a royal
> position. Looked great. See if you can find some old footage
> of Suzy Chaffee. SHE looked great doing these turns down the
> hill. There was also a little Swiss guy I knew back then who
> worked for Hart ski and did some wonderful demos of ski ballet
> before it became an olympic event. I think it's since been
> dropped as an event but it's still part of the past.
Where does Wayne Wong hang out these days?
Itchy seems intent on describing historic ski maneuvers using unique
language constructions to obscure the connection to history. I suppose
it serves his purpose.
P.S. I recently scored (in Saratoga N.Y.!!) an English translation of
the Official Austrian Ski Instruction method manual circa 1950. Good
stuff for history buffs.
VtSkier
> VtSkier wrote:
>>
>> http://eng.proz.com/kudoz/1219123
>> The royal christie, in it's most elegant form, is a christie (turn) on
>> the uphill edge of the uphill ski with the downhill ski carried
>> gracefully in the air with the leg bent to a 90 degree angle as in a
>> roundhouse karate kick. It is an "old school" technique, but still
>> very useful as a drill to promote inclination to initiate a turn, no
>> matter what type of equipment you're on.
>>
>> This is what the ballet skiers of the 60's-70's were doing.
>> Sometimes they would do 360's down the hill in a royal
>> position. Looked great. See if you can find some old footage
>> of Suzy Chaffee. SHE looked great doing these turns down the
>> hill. There was also a little Swiss guy I knew back then who
>> worked for Hart ski and did some wonderful demos of ski ballet
>> before it became an olympic event. I think it's since been
>> dropped as an event but it's still part of the past.
>
> Where does Wayne Wong hang out these days?
I guess the cover of the latest "Powder" answers that question.
> Itchy seems intent on describing historic ski maneuvers using unique
> language constructions to obscure the connection to history. I suppose
> it serves his purpose.
>
> P.S. I recently scored (in Saratoga N.Y.!!) an English translation of
> the Official Austrian Ski Instruction method manual circa 1950. Good
> stuff for history buffs.
So I had a lesson from a very good level 3 PSIA guy last year.
It was serendipitous in that I got him a good price for a
K-Mart ticket because his PSIA card didn't work on a Saturday.
He then hung out with me for the rest of the day and as he
was giving "pointers", I decided to ask him for something more.
He started out asking what I learned at the beginning of my
skiing career. I mentioned "Arlberg" and the fact that my first
instructor was WWII German Army trained ("You vill turn the
skis!"). We then proceeded to take what I knew and apply it
basically to modern skis. I improved greatly that day while
not needing to give up old stuff that worked.
BTW, that same issue of "Powder" has Suzy Chaffee and one
Andrew listed among the most influential skiers of the last
35 years. That covers a lot of ground, but doesn't go back
to some of my heroes.
VtSkier
a) Like I said, inside ski heavy and edged = Royal Christie.
I know how, I also know it's disastrous on EasternFirm(tm)
ski conditions.
b) How do you "weigh" or weight the outside ski? Short
answer, "stomp on it." Slightly longer answer, muscle
tension more on outside leg, so that inside leg is
"softer". You can bank a turn doing this (lean into
the hill) on good conditions or you can angulate to
keep your weight over your skis so they will be less
apt to wash out on EasternFirm(tm) conditions.
It seems to me like with your flatboarding you are
"reinventing the wheel" and doing stuff that's already
been done and is still done to a certain degree today
by certain people. My only real concern with your
"flatboarding" is that you are selling it as an
"end-all-be-all" for all conditions and terrain and
all I really mean to say is that a one-turn quiver
gets you into trouble sooner or later.
Sierra at Tahoe in Early January? I'll send dates
that I'll be in the Tahoe area off-group at a later
date.
taichiskiing
> VtSkier wrote:
> >
> > http://eng.proz.com/kudoz/1219123
> > The royal christie, in it's most elegant form, is a christie (turn) on
> > the uphill edge of the uphill ski with the downhill ski carried
> > gracefully in the air with the leg bent to a 90 degree angle as in a
> > roundhouse karate kick. It is an "old school" technique, but still very
> > useful as a drill to promote inclination to initiate a turn, no matter
> > what type of equipment you're on.
> >
> > This is what the ballet skiers of the 60's-70's were doing.
> > Sometimes they would do 360's down the hill in a royal
> > position. Looked great. See if you can find some old footage
> > of Suzy Chaffee. SHE looked great doing these turns down the
> > hill. There was also a little Swiss guy I knew back then who
> > worked for Hart ski and did some wonderful demos of ski ballet
> > before it became an olympic event. I think it's since been
> > dropped as an event but it's still part of the past.
>
> Where does Wayne Wong hang out these days?
>
> Itchy seems intent on describing historic ski maneuvers using unique
> language constructions to obscure the connection to history.
Or just your denial to assert that you know something? The problem with
such a tactic is that when you insist on putting a square peg into a
round hole and call them "fitted," you're ignorant on both knowledge.
> I suppose it serves his purpose.
Here's the description of my style, Taichi Skiing, just in case that
you couldn't figure out or missed last time.
My Tai Chi, Shen style,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/tji/tji_shentaichi.html,
which was developed base on Classical Taichi doctrines,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/tji/tji_taichiandchuan.html,
and applied and validated on the skiing,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_dance.html;
Yes, that's Taichi Skiing.
>
> P.S. I recently scored (in Saratoga N.Y.!!) an English translation of
> the Official Austrian Ski Instruction method manual circa 1950. Good
> stuff for history buffs.
Did it talk about the "techniques" of "slipping turn" in there?
:)
IS
lal_truckee
> lal_truckee wrote:
>>
>> Where does Wayne Wong hang out these days?
>
> I guess the cover of the latest "Powder" answers that question.
Sheeit. I'm usenetting with the new issue waiting at my elbow with it's
newsprint "RENEW NOW" outercover unopened; and whoa, there the hotdog
king himself is, looking fit and tanned, staring out at me.
I'll have to read the article this morning.
Marty
> http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_tcsl.avi
> http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_freeskiingl.wmv
Those are vidoes of you doing your "slipped" turns?
What I see are banked turns with lots of upper-body movement. Okay, I
take it back, I never "slip" a turn (on purpose). There is a drill
that we use called "side slips", but those are to teach releasing and
setting of the skis edges and we'll do some one ski stuff for balance
that has the skier on their uphill ski while turning - but it's a
drill, cause you never know when you might end up that way by accident
(e.g. Bode on his hip completing a turn on his uphill ski).
Call me old-school, but I'll stick to carving, skidding, and real
flatboarding (no turns) for now.
Thanks.
--
Marty
taichiskiing
> taichiskiing wrote:
> > VtSkier wrote:
> >> taichiskiing wrote:
> >> <snork><cough><wheeze><choke>
> >>
> >> Uhm, Ichin?
> >> Look at what you wrote again.
> >> In a car you steer (turn the wheel) left to
> >> turn left. One of the results of this action
> >> will be that that the RIGHT side of the car
> >> will be "heavy".
> >
> > Yes, you're right; I missed to specify the direction in my "around a
> > curve" example, which is curved to the right.
> >
> >> The same is true for skiing. You weight
> >> your RIGHT ski to turn left (presuming
> >> that you are skiing frontwards, which
> >> must be stipulated these days of double tip
> >> skis).
> >
> > Ahh, here's the tricky part. Firstly, as I have specified that
> > flatboarding uses "inside" ski (dominant) turn, so I'd turn right when
> > my right ski heavy, which is different from your "outside" ski dominant
> > turn. However, secondly, how do you "weigh" that [outside] ski, as you
> > have to move your weight [inside] into the turn, which is opposite
> > direction from the force that you applied to the outside ski?
>
> a) Like I said, inside ski heavy and edged = Royal Christie.
What if it is inside ski heavy and parallel? I generally ski with
inside ski heavy so that the outside ski is loose and tag along behind
the inside ski and parallel during a turn.
> I know how, I also know it's disastrous on EasternFirm(tm)
> ski conditions.
But methinks that "slipping turn" is safer/dociler than "carving turn"
when the turn turns sour.
>
> b) How do you "weigh" or weight the outside ski? Short
> answer, "stomp on it." Slightly longer answer, muscle
> tension more on outside leg, so that inside leg is
> "softer". You can bank a turn doing this (lean into
> the hill) on good conditions or you can angulate to
> keep your weight over your skis so they will be less
> apt to wash out on EasternFirm(tm) conditions.
Yes, weigh it with more muscle power; however, in this way, when you
move your weight inward (lean, or angulate) to balance the turn, you
would lose some of power due to elongated leverage on the leg.
Inside ski turn weighs the inside ski with the weight; when more weight
is needed to match the turn, all you need to do is to get more weight
down (shorten the distance between your CoG/butt and the ski/foot) on
the ski.
I'm pretty sure of that. As I said it before, skiing as a sport began
with the "flatboarding" and "slipping turn," and you can find that in
any old film clips. But, in favor of carving turn for their shaped skis
marketing plot, the skiing industry has lost or overlooked its root.
Maybe they think that "new" is better, but I actually like the old way
better.
> My only real concern with your
> "flatboarding" is that you are selling it as an
> "end-all-be-all" for all conditions and terrain and
> all I really mean to say is that a one-turn quiver
> gets you into trouble sooner or later.
No, no technique is "end-all-be-all" for all conditions and terrain,
but given the reasons I stated in the earlier posts, flatboarding and
slipping turn is more versatile and safer technique/skiing than
carving-turn-skiing.
However, the "principle" of flatboarding, "press a ski bottom, the ski
runs, and press the edge, the ski turns" remains the "end-all-be-all"
principle. And that's flatboarding.
>
> Sierra at Tahoe in Early January? I'll send dates
> that I'll be in the Tahoe area off-group at a later
> date.
Sure thing. I'll be looking forward to it.
'later, :)
IS
Walt
> I'm pretty sure of that. As I said it before, skiing as a sport began
> with the "flatboarding" and "slipping turn," and you can find that in
> any old film clips.
Skiing as a sport began long before motion picture photography.
//Walt
Bob F
"taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> No, no technique is "end-all-be-all" for all conditions and terrain,
> but given the reasons I stated in the earlier posts, flatboarding and
> slipping turn is more versatile and safer technique/skiing than
> carving-turn-skiing.
Could you point me to videos of "flatboarding" in bumps and
deep crud.
Bob
taichiskiing
> taichiskiing wrote:
>
> > http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_tcsl.avi
> > http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_freeskiingl.wmv
>
> Those are vidoes of you doing your "slipped" turns?
Yes, that's how I normally free ski; however, I think the following
clip illustrates better for what a "typical" flatboarding run looks
like,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_contourskiingl.wmv
>
> What I see are banked turns with lots of upper-body movement.
Maybe, if your reference point is on the feet or on the video frames,
which both are moving; however, if you look at the body, you'll find
the upper-body/core remains steady, where the feet move around it and
hands are for balance and counter-balance.
> Okay, I take it back, I never "slip" a turn (on purpose). There is a drill
> that we use called "side slips", but those are to teach releasing and
> setting of the skis edges and we'll do some one ski stuff for balance
> that has the skier on their uphill ski while turning - but it's a
> drill, cause you never know when you might end up that way by accident
"Side slip" is for "slipping," which slips in a straight line, more or
less, and "slipping turn" is for turning/changing direction, and that's
the major difference. Nevertheless, what's the drill for if you don't
use it?
> (e.g. Bode on his hip completing a turn on his uphill ski).
Not for name dropping, but I think that Bode is essentially a
flatboarder too; his "T-bone" recovery in one of the Olympic event was
really an eye-opener.
>
> Call me old-school, but I'll stick to carving, skidding, and real
> flatboarding (no turns) for now.
Call me old-fashion, or call me new-school (and I don't really know
what the "new-school" stand for nowadays), guess I'll stick with my
flatboarding,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_p_is_rideski.jpg
>
> Thanks.
Thank you, too.
'later, :)
IS
> --
> Marty
taichiskiing
I don't have the video of flatboarding in bumps and deep crud on skis
as yet, as my last season was cut short unexpectedly, but I'll work on
that as soon as there are bumps and deep crud. Meanwhile, may I just
entertain you with flatboarding in bumps and deep crud on snowboard?
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_boardl.wmv
maybe more video clips,
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_video.html
Thanks for visiting my site, :)
IS
>
> Bob
Walt
> Marty wrote:
>
>>taichiskiing wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_tcsl.avi
>>>http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_freeskiingl.wmv
>>
>>Those are vidoes of you doing your "slipped" turns?
>
>
> Yes, that's how I normally free ski; however, I think the following
> clip illustrates better for what a "typical" flatboarding run looks
> like,
> http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_contourskiingl.wmv
That's pretty good. But you need to get more arm movement into it for
the full effect.
Imagine that you're driving a Chevette or some other small car with
non-power windows. Ever so gently reach way back and roll down the rear
window, first on the driver's side, then do the passenger side. Then,
roll them back up one at a time, all the while keeping your other hand
on the imaginary steering wheel.
//Walt
taichiskiing
>
> > Yes, that's how I normally free ski; however, I think the following
> > clip illustrates better for what a "typical" flatboarding run looks
> > like,
> > http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_contourskiingl.wmv
>
> boat.
Why, afraid of a little speed?
:)
IS
>
> --
> Sven Golly
> Yah sure by gosh by yumpin' yiminy
> Trolling as usual
> Change the "_" to "." to reply by email
taichiskiing
> taichiskiing wrote:
.....
> > Yes, that's how I normally free ski; however, I think the following
> > clip illustrates better for what a "typical" flatboarding run looks
> > like,
> > http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_contourskiingl.wmv
>
> That's pretty good. But you need to get more arm movement into it for
> the full effect.
>
> Imagine that you're driving a Chevette or some other small car with
> non-power windows. Ever so gently reach way back and roll down the rear
> window, first on the driver's side, then do the passenger side. Then,
> roll them back up one at a time, all the while keeping your other hand
> on the imaginary steering wheel.
Nice imagination, but substance? "Yup, your mouth is moving."
:)
IS
>
> //Walt
Walt
Right. How could I ever forget the importance of proper vocalization to
go with the routine?
A decisive "YEOW-OW-OW-OW-OW-AAAAAAAAAHHHHRHG!" will finish the routine
nicely, although one can never go wrong with the ever-popular "HEY!
LOOKOUT BELOW!! GET OUT OF MY WAY!!!!".
//Walt
Bob F
> Bob F wrote:
> > "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > No, no technique is "end-all-be-all" for all conditions and terrain,
> > > but given the reasons I stated in the earlier posts, flatboarding and
> > > slipping turn is more versatile and safer technique/skiing than
> > > carving-turn-skiing.
> >
> > Could you point me to videos of "flatboarding" in bumps and
> > deep crud.
>
> I don't have the video of flatboarding in bumps and deep crud on skis
> as yet, as my last season was cut short unexpectedly, but I'll work on
> that as soon as there are bumps and deep crud. Meanwhile, may I just
> entertain you with flatboarding in bumps and deep crud on snowboard?
> http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_boardl.wmv
Wow. I'd be embarased as hell if any of my fellow instructors
saw me riding like that. Why would someone want to do that?
It looks horribly awkward. Arm waving, body rotation, both
things I've learned to avoid to ride well. I probably did look
like that before I got any instruction.
Bob
Bob F
"Walt" <walt_...@SHOESyahoo.com> wrote in message
Followed by the traditional snowboarder greeting "Sorry Dude".
Bob
taichiskiing
What, a nightmare in your daydreaming? Or just a delirious state of
mind? You mustn't work so hard on your such delicate psyche. Now, go
back to your daydreaming, there's nothing to worry about here, only a
few skiers try to talk about some "serious" skiing subjects. You may
joint in later when your mind calms down.
Shsss... :)
IS
>
> //Walt
taichiskiing
>
> > Why, afraid of a little speed?
>
To an untrained eye, I guess. Nevertheless, what are you whining about?
taichiskiing
> "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1162881902....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > Bob F wrote:
> > > "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > No, no technique is "end-all-be-all" for all conditions and terrain,
> > > > but given the reasons I stated in the earlier posts, flatboarding and
> > > > slipping turn is more versatile and safer technique/skiing than
> > > > carving-turn-skiing.
> > >
> > > Could you point me to videos of "flatboarding" in bumps and
> > > deep crud.
> >
> > I don't have the video of flatboarding in bumps and deep crud on skis
> > as yet, as my last season was cut short unexpectedly, but I'll work on
> > that as soon as there are bumps and deep crud. Meanwhile, may I just
> > entertain you with flatboarding in bumps and deep crud on snowboard?
> > http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_boardl.wmv
>
> Wow. I'd be embarased as hell if any of my fellow instructors
> saw me riding like that.
Yup, you would, only an insecure character/personality feel embarrassed
about how others would look at him/her.
> Why would someone want to do that?
You were talking about the "bumps and deep crud," right?
> It looks horribly awkward. Arm waving, body rotation, both
> things I've learned to avoid to ride well.
You are entitle to your own observation.
> I probably did
> look like that before I got any instruction.
Ok, let's see how you do it, clips?
There are doers, and there are gappers, which one are you?
:)
IS
Walt
> What, a nightmare in your daydreaming?
Yeah, and what a weird dream it was: I was skiing the backcountry, just
me and a female companion, and everything was going fine until this
*train* showed up. And I was thinking, man, what's a train doing out
here in the backcountry? But before I could deal with the train, a
great brown bear showed up and I had to wrestle it, except I didn't
really wrestle it, it was more like 300 yards away and I was able to
take a fuzzy picture of it using a telephoto lens. Like I say strange.
Because the next thing I knew I was sking inbounds on a steep bump
run. Except it was groomed, and it was nearly flat, and my skis seemed
to work backwards - weight the right ski to go right, weight the left
ski to go left. And the next thing I knew, everybody on the lift was
laughing at me, and the ski patrol was clipping my ticket, and I
realized I was wearing a pair of underwear on my head.
Then I woke up.
Like I say, strange.
//Walt
JQ
"Walt" <walt_...@SHOESyahoo.com> wrote in message
JQ
Dancing on the edge
down_hill
Richard Henry
Did the train ever go into a tunnel?
taichiskiing
You are delirious; grizzly hibernate in the winter.
:)
IS
>
> //Walt
bdubya
It must be. I find myself doing all the traditional rites of fall;
checking my boots to make sure they didn't get funky over the summer,
idly dragging a nail across the wax on my edges and looking forward to
the day it comes off, chuckling over the annual flatboarding
"discussion", checking snow forecasts for hills that wont be open for
weeks yet...must be fall.
bw
Bob F
Sorry. I have nothing to offer in the way of pics.
What I see in yours is someone winding up their body
to force the board to change direction. I prefer to twist
the board to steer it into turns. The turn starts at the board
rather in the upper body.
In a way, a proper turn on a board might be considered a
slipping turn initially. As you twist the leading edge of the board
into the turn, the front of the board starts sliding down the
hill while the rear uphill edge is still engaged. So, until the back
foot drops the edge and the new inside edge becomes
active in the snow, the board is slipping, if I understand your
definition.
Bob
taichiskiing
So we won't know how well your snowboarding looks like?
>
> What I see in yours is someone winding up their body
> to force the board to change direction. I prefer to twist
> the board to steer it into turns. The turn starts at the board
> rather in the upper body.
There are two "ways" to ski/snowboard when balancing/turning, move the
body/core/weight first, or the feet first. Flatboarding moves the body
core first, at the hips, not the upper body. And I don't twist the
board to turn, see below.
>
> In a way, a proper turn on a board might be considered a
> slipping turn initially. As you twist the leading edge of the board
> into the turn, the front of the board starts sliding down the
> hill while the rear uphill edge is still engaged. So, until the back
> foot drops the edge and the new inside edge becomes
> active in the snow, the board is slipping, if I understand your
> definition.
Not really. Since you don't use the standard snowboarding terminologies
(most people use "toe-edge" and "heel-edge"), not sure what your
"leading edge" is, thus, the meaning of "twist the leading edge."
Anyway, flatboarding on snowboard is a lot easier than flatboarding on
skis. Unlike flatboarding on skis, which rides on a "soft"/"variable"
"board" that is formed by the different configuration of two skis,
flatboarding on snowboard rides on one piece "hard"/"invariable,"
board, which makes the board very maneuverable, especially, through
slipping turns and skidding turns, and carving turn remains as an
optional.
Here's how I usually ride my board: Flatboarding with the body centered
over the board, shift more weight to the forward foot to go fast, and
more weight on the back foot to slow down. Turning is done by adjusting
the "angle of attack" (the angle between the centerline of the board
and the line traveled, and is adjustable through the difference between
the feet pressure and movements) for the rate of turn, and as if that
is not enough to turn, the edge pressure is then used to achieve the
desired result. By referencing the pressure from the balls and the
heels of the feet and balancing them to achieve an equilibrium with
gravity, flatboarding is to ride/flow on the top of the snow, just like
a surfer surfing the ocean waves. That's why it's also called "surfing
the gravity."
HIH, :)
IS
>
> Bob
Bob F
> > to force the board to change direction. I prefer to twist
> > the board to steer it into turns. The turn starts at the board
> > rather in the upper body.
>
> There are two "ways" to ski/snowboard when balancing/turning, move the
> body/core/weight first, or the feet first. Flatboarding moves the body
> core first, at the hips, not the upper body. And I don't twist the
> board to turn, see below.
>
> >
> > In a way, a proper turn on a board might be considered a
> > slipping turn initially. As you twist the leading edge of the board
> > into the turn, the front of the board starts sliding down the
> > hill while the rear uphill edge is still engaged. So, until the back
> > foot drops the edge and the new inside edge becomes
> > active in the snow, the board is slipping, if I understand your
> > definition.
>
> Not really. Since you don't use the standard snowboarding terminologies
> (most people use "toe-edge" and "heel-edge"), not sure what your
> "leading edge" is, thus, the meaning of "twist the leading edge."
OK. You are traversing the slope on a heel edge. You start a toe turn
by pushing down on your front foot toe, while continuing to hold
the rear foot toe up. Thereby, you twist the board so that the front
edge releases its grip, allowing it to slide down the hill, while the
rear edge is still engaged, preventing the rear of the board from
keeping up with the front. So the front of the board turns.
As the turn continues, the rear toe will start to apply pressure
downward, transfering the control from the heel to the toe edge.
The confidence that students get when they quit trying to push
the board around by rotating their bodies ahead of the turn, and
begin steering the board with their feet, is a pleasure to
behold.
> Anyway, flatboarding on snowboard is a lot easier than flatboarding on
> skis. Unlike flatboarding on skis, which rides on a "soft"/"variable"
> "board" that is formed by the different configuration of two skis,
> flatboarding on snowboard rides on one piece "hard"/"invariable,"
> board, which makes the board very maneuverable, especially, through
> slipping turns and skidding turns, and carving turn remains as an
> optional.
>
> Here's how I usually ride my board: Flatboarding with the body centered
> over the board, shift more weight to the forward foot to go fast, and
> more weight on the back foot to slow down. Turning is done by adjusting
> the "angle of attack" (the angle between the centerline of the board
> and the line traveled, and is adjustable through the difference between
> the feet pressure and movements) for the rate of turn, and as if that
> is not enough to turn, the edge pressure is then used to achieve the
> desired result. By referencing the pressure from the balls and the
> heels of the feet and balancing them to achieve an equilibrium with
> gravity, flatboarding is to ride/flow on the top of the snow, just like
> a surfer surfing the ocean waves. That's why it's also called "surfing
> the gravity."
>
It's really hard to figure out what you are saying here.
Bob
Jeremy
> > > In a way, a proper turn on a board might be considered a
> > > slipping turn initially. As you twist the leading edge of the board
> > > into the turn, the front of the board starts sliding down the
> > > hill while the rear uphill edge is still engaged. So, until the back
> > > foot drops the edge and the new inside edge becomes
> > > active in the snow, the board is slipping, if I understand your
> > > definition.
> >
> > Not really. Since you don't use the standard snowboarding terminologies
> > (most people use "toe-edge" and "heel-edge"), not sure what your
> > "leading edge" is, thus, the meaning of "twist the leading edge."
> OK. You are traversing the slope on a heel edge. You start a toe turn
> by pushing down on your front foot toe, while continuing to hold
> the rear foot toe up. Thereby, you twist the board so that the front
> edge releases its grip, allowing it to slide down the hill, while the
> rear edge is still engaged, preventing the rear of the board from
> keeping up with the front. So the front of the board turns.
Not consciously on any board I've ever used. While there is some torsional
flex in any board, I have never heard anyone suggest it as a mechanism to
control a turn. When I switch from one edge to the other, it's a roll off
the edge, onto the base, onto the opposite edge sequence. The flex
perpendicular to the base is significant, and affected by weight placement.
Bob F
"Jeremy" <n...@spam.pl> wrote in message
news:ejdmtp$rj9$1...@reader2.panix.com...
Learn it and you'll never go back. No waving your arms or
pushing the board around. You just steer it into the turn.
And you won't catch your edge anymore.
I've had a couple students that couldn't get their turns right.
I finally figured out that their bindings were too close together
on the board to let them twist it properly. Move the bindings
apart - now they're happy.
Bob
Jeremy
> "Jeremy" <n...@spam.pl> wrote in message
> >
> > Not consciously on any board I've ever used. While there is some
> torsional
> > flex in any board, I have never heard anyone suggest it as a mechanism to
> > control a turn. When I switch from one edge to the other, it's a roll off
> > the edge, onto the base, onto the opposite edge sequence. The flex
> > perpendicular to the base is significant, and affected by weight
> placement.
> >
> Learn it and you'll never go back. No waving your arms or
> pushing the board around. You just steer it into the turn.
> And you won't catch your edge anymore.
Who said anything about arm waving or edge catching? I just steer into the
turn, or rather transition into it. The board goes from
\ || /
| to || to |
/ || \
At no point does it
/
|
/
And I doubt that I have the strength to do such a thing to the board. If I
could, I suspect there would be problems holding a turn at speed.
> I've had a couple students that couldn't get their turns right.
> I finally figured out that their bindings were too close together
> on the board to let them twist it properly. Move the bindings
> apart - now they're happy.
Which sounds like discounting the various other things that happen when the
stance is too tight: difficulty in balancing, pivoting, and
reduction of options for controlling flex perpendicular to the base.
I'm not doubting the problem, symptoms or the solution. Only the explanation.
Bob F
It is not a problem at all. It doesn't take strength, just skill. It in no
way
affects holding a turn at speed, as it is only how you initiate the turn.
After the turn begins, the edge is fully engaged in the turn.
This is how we teach people how to initiate turns. When I finally talked
my school into putting me into snowboard clinics instead of ski clinics,
I learned this technique, and my riding improved drastically. I'm sure
that PSIA wouldn't be teaching this if it didn't work.
> > I've had a couple students that couldn't get their turns right.
> > I finally figured out that their bindings were too close together
> > on the board to let them twist it properly. Move the bindings
> > apart - now they're happy.
>
> Which sounds like discounting the various other things that happen when
the
> stance is too tight: difficulty in balancing, pivoting, and
> reduction of options for controlling flex perpendicular to the base.
> I'm not doubting the problem, symptoms or the solution. Only the
explanation.
>
You had to see the result. Of course, if you don't know how to do it,
you probably wouldn't see it.
I see lots of riders pushing the back ends of their boards around to turn.
This technique steers the front of the board into the turn. In my opinion,
it
gives you much quicker and more reliable turns, and it sure looks better.
If you want to learn something new, take a lesson from someone that
teaches this technique, and I think you'll be very pleased with the result.
Bob
Jeremy
> This is how we teach people how to initiate turns. When I finally talked
> my school into putting me into snowboard clinics instead of ski clinics,
> I learned this technique, and my riding improved drastically. I'm sure
> that PSIA wouldn't be teaching this if it didn't work.
That explains it. You appear to be describing a pedagogical device. Look
where you want to go, Shoulders as headlights, Point your toes, and numerous
others. I took it for a physical description of what happens to the board.
Given that one attempts to rotate to the outside edge, the transition occurs
when the force used to rotate overcomes the force used to maintain as applied
by the read foot.
Bob F
that the edge at the front of the board releases while the edge at the rear
of the board is still engaged. The front of the board begins to slide
downhill,
the rear doesn't, so a turn is initiated. Then, as the board turns, the rear
of the
board untwists to engage the other edge. Front toe down, toe turn starts,
rear
toe down, board carves, front toe up, heel turn starts, rear toe up, board
carves.
Bob
taichiskiing
> "Jeremy" <n...@spam.pl> wrote in message
> news:ejgl4f$kkm$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> > Bob F <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > This is how we teach people how to initiate turns. When I finally talked
> > > my school into putting me into snowboard clinics instead of ski clinics,
> > > I learned this technique, and my riding improved drastically. I'm sure
> > > that PSIA wouldn't be teaching this if it didn't work.
> >
> > That explains it. You appear to be describing a
> > pedagogical device. Look where you want to go, Shoulders
> > as headlights, Point your toes, and numerous others. I
> > took it for a physical description of what happens to the
> > board. Given that one attempts to rotate to the outside
> > edge, the transition occurs when the force used to rotate
> > overcomes the force used to maintain as applied
> > by the read foot.
> >
> >
> It is specifically a physical action on the board. The Board
> is twisted so that the edge at the front of the board
> releases while the edge at the rear of the board is still engaged.
Methinks that the statement "the board is twisted" is what causes the
confusing. You cannot really "twist" the board edgewise. To turn as you
described you need to "twist" your body, at hips, to create askew
tension to put turning force onto the feet, which direct the board to
go where you want to go. The "twisting," as you described, is caused by
one foot goes forward and the other goes backward, so the board rotates
around its center axis and changing direction, is too much a maneuver
for most conditions except the very steep and tight bumps. To make a
smooth transition/turn, point the board/nose direct downhill, and
weight on the front foot, "weight on the front foot," and maintain the
balance, then move your rear toe edge (with pressure on toe edge,)
backward to make a toe turn, or move your rear heel edge (with pressure
on the heel edge,) forward to make a heel turn. Or you can put your
weight on the back foot and move the front foot as described earlier to
make a turn, but it is a lot harder.
> The front of the board begins to slide downhill,
> the rear doesn't, so a turn is initiated. Then, as the board
> turns, the rear of the board untwists to engage the other
> edge. Front toe down, toe turn starts, rear
> toe down, board carves, front toe up, heel turn starts, rear
> toe up, board carves.
Couldn't quite figure out the maneuver here; I'm assuming that you are
in a position that you are on the heel edge and the nose of the board
points sideway, so you move the front toe down to initiate a toe turn
and the board changing direct. Because the uneven feet pressure, with
the front heavy, you are in a "slipping turn." With the rear toe down,
you make the board pointing more sideway, the board would skid into a
"skidding turn," not carving. The only way you can "carve" a snowboard
is to put your weight over the "center" of the board and two feet are
equally weighed and exert an equal edge pressure "into" the hill; any
different pressure between the two feet will cause the board to spin,
slip, and skid. And the term "up" is quite confusing too, you cannot
really move anything "up" the hill on snowboard. Down is the way.
HIH, :)
IS
>
> Bob
Bob F
The twisting I am talking about is twisting the board. Corkscrewing it
might be a more descriptive term. You push down the front toe edge
and lift the rear toe edge so that the board is physically twisted.
The front end of the board (traversing) more closely matches the
downward slope of the hill, while the rear of the board is still engaged
on the uphill edge.
The motion you describe as twisting is rotation. Many boarders use the
feet to rotate the board as you describe. That is not done with the
technique. Instead, the twisting helps steer the board into the turn.
Your body stays aligned with the board, and just follows it intothe turn.
I don't really understand why this is so hard to communicate.
>
> > The front of the board begins to slide downhill,
> > the rear doesn't, so a turn is initiated. Then, as the board
> > turns, the rear of the board untwists to engage the other
> > edge. Front toe down, toe turn starts, rear
> > toe down, board carves, front toe up, heel turn starts, rear
> > toe up, board carves.
>
> Couldn't quite figure out the maneuver here; I'm assuming that you are
> in a position that you are on the heel edge and the nose of the board
> points sideway, so you move the front toe down to initiate a toe turn
> and the board changing direct. Because the uneven feet pressure, with
> the front heavy, you are in a "slipping turn." With the rear toe down,
> you make the board pointing more sideway, the board would skid into a
> "skidding turn," not carving. The only way you can "carve" a snowboard
> is to put your weight over the "center" of the board and two feet are
> equally weighed and exert an equal edge pressure "into" the hill; any
> different pressure between the two feet will cause the board to spin,
> slip, and skid. And the term "up" is quite confusing too, you cannot
> really move anything "up" the hill on snowboard. Down is the way.
The board indeed carves. When you transition to pressure down
with the rear toe, the board goes fully onto the new inside edge
and carves. Sure, you can weight unequally and skid or slip if
you wish.
Up = away from the snow
Down = towards the snow.
Bob
taichiskiing
Ok, you do "twist" the board, I call it "warp." A "warped" board has a
curved edge and uneven bottom-snow contact which flavor an uneven
slide, so it turns. The method works, but it requires too much
"work"/energy/balancing on the boarder. And a warped board makes
managing the "turn shape" difficult.
>
> The motion you describe as twisting is rotation. Many boarders use the
> feet to rotate the board as you describe. That is not done with the
> technique. Instead, the twisting helps steer the board into the turn.
> Your body stays aligned with the board, and just follows it intothe turn.
Without juggling the force/tension applied to "twist" the board, a
"rotated" board rides "flatter," so it glides better, steadier, and the
"turn shape" is much easier to managing.
>
> I don't really understand why this is so hard to communicate.
Communication is a two ways traffic.
>
> >
> > > The front of the board begins to slide downhill,
> > > the rear doesn't, so a turn is initiated. Then, as the board
> > > turns, the rear of the board untwists to engage the other
> > > edge. Front toe down, toe turn starts, rear
> > > toe down, board carves, front toe up, heel turn starts, rear
> > > toe up, board carves.
> >
> > Couldn't quite figure out the maneuver here; I'm assuming that you are
> > in a position that you are on the heel edge and the nose of the board
> > points sideway, so you move the front toe down to initiate a toe turn
> > and the board changing direct. Because the uneven feet pressure, with
> > the front heavy, you are in a "slipping turn." With the rear toe down,
> > you make the board pointing more sideway, the board would skid into a
> > "skidding turn," not carving. The only way you can "carve" a snowboard
> > is to put your weight over the "center" of the board and two feet are
> > equally weighed and exert an equal edge pressure "into" the hill; any
> > different pressure between the two feet will cause the board to spin,
> > slip, and skid. And the term "up" is quite confusing too, you cannot
> > really move anything "up" the hill on snowboard. Down is the way.
>
> The board indeed carves. When you transition to pressure down
> with the rear toe, the board goes fully onto the new inside
> edge and carves. Sure, you can weight unequally and skid or
> slip if you wish.
That depends what you mean by "carving." The major difference between
"carving" and "slipping," both in skiing and in snowboarding, is how to
apply the edge pressure. When carving, the direction of the edge
pressure is "into" the hill, and in "slipping," the direction of the
edge pressure is "away from" the hill.
>
> Up = away from the snow
> Down = towards the snow.
Interesting terminology. Where did you say you teaching snow board?
In skiing/snowboarding (on a hill), I take "up" as the "direction"
"uphill" and "down" for the "direction" "downhill."
'later, :)
IS
>
> Bob
Bob F
If it's too much work, I wonder why PSIA teaches us to teach this.
Even if it is "too much work", I will assure you that it makes a
far more dependable turn initiation.
Until you've learned to do it, I suspect discussion will be fruitless.
> >
> > The motion you describe as twisting is rotation. Many boarders use the
> > feet to rotate the board as you describe. That is not done with the
> > technique. Instead, the twisting helps steer the board into the turn.
> > Your body stays aligned with the board, and just follows it intothe
turn.
>
> Without juggling the force/tension applied to "twist" the board, a
> "rotated" board rides "flatter," so it glides better, steadier, and the
> "turn shape" is much easier to managing.
Is that right?
Which way is "away from the hill"? When I am carving a turn and the
inside edge of the board happens to be the downhill edge, before the
board turns far enough to cross the fall line, does that mean I am slipping?
>
> >
> > Up = away from the snow
> > Down = towards the snow.
>
> Interesting terminology. Where did you say you teaching snow board?
>
> In skiing/snowboarding (on a hill), I take "up" as the "direction"
> "uphill" and "down" for the "direction" "downhill."
When we are talking about toe pressures?
Bob
taichiskiing
> "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1163865110.2...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Bob F wrote:
> > > "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1163698439.2...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> > > > Bob F wrote:
I'm not sure why, I'm not a fan of PSIA.
>
> Even if it is "too much work", I will assure you that it makes a
> far more dependable turn initiation.
Let the gravity to do the work, you don't have to fight the "warping
force" to turn.
>
> Until you've learned to do it, I suspect discussion will be fruitless.
So you haven't learned that communication is two traffic stuff, eh, can
you do the technique I described?
> > >
> > > The motion you describe as twisting is rotation. Many boarders use the
> > > feet to rotate the board as you describe. That is not done with the
> > > technique. Instead, the twisting helps steer the board into the turn.
> > > Your body stays aligned with the board, and just follows it intothe
> turn.
> >
> > Without juggling the force/tension applied to "twist" the board, a
> > "rotated" board rides "flatter," so it glides better, steadier, and the
> > "turn shape" is much easier to managing.
>
> Is that right?
Yes, flatter means more bottom-snow contact, so it glides steadier;
more bottom-snow contact means more ways to control the board, so the
turn shape is easier to control.
If you are carving, the turning force "carves" into the snow, and into
the turn, and makes a clean track. As in skidding and slipping, the
weighed edge slips "away from" from the mark it initially makes, so
they leave a wider smeared track.
> When I am carving a turn and the
> inside edge of the board happens to be the downhill edge, before the
> board turns far enough to cross the fall line, does that mean I am slipping?
No sure where you at, to my experience, the inside edge is always
uphill edge "during" a turn, or you mean that you're at where the end
of previous turn to initiate a new turn? If you are carving you will
feel a sharp angular acceleration here, and a clean tracking feeling,
and if you slipping, you won't feel as sharp, and some scrubbing
feeling when you round the turn.
> >
> > >
> > > Up = away from the snow
> > > Down = towards the snow.
> >
> > Interesting terminology. Where did you say you teaching snow board?
> >
> > In skiing/snowboarding (on a hill), I take "up" as the "direction"
> > "uphill" and "down" for the "direction" "downhill."
>
> When we are talking about toe pressures?
When you hold the toe edge down? I use a terminology that references to
the body structure/orientation for body movements, and external
references (the mountain/hill) to describe the board
movements/maneuvers.
HIH, :)
IS
>
> Bob
Bob F
> Bob F wrote:
> >
> > Even if it is "too much work", I will assure you that it makes a
> > far more dependable turn initiation.
>
> Let the gravity to do the work, you don't have to fight the "warping
> force" to turn.
Release the edge at the front of the board allows gravity to
do the work. You don't have to shove the board around
by swinging your body and waving your arms like I see
in your video.
>
> >
> > Until you've learned to do it, I suspect discussion will be fruitless.
>
> So you haven't learned that communication is two traffic stuff, eh, can
> you do the technique I described?
>
> > > >
> > > > The motion you describe as twisting is rotation. Many boarders use
the
> > > > feet to rotate the board as you describe. That is not done with the
> > > > technique. Instead, the twisting helps steer the board into the
turn.
> > > > Your body stays aligned with the board, and just follows it intothe
> > turn.
> > >
> > > Without juggling the force/tension applied to "twist" the board, a
> > > "rotated" board rides "flatter," so it glides better, steadier, and
the
> > > "turn shape" is much easier to managing.
> >
> > Is that right?
>
> Yes, flatter means more bottom-snow contact, so it glides steadier;
> more bottom-snow contact means more ways to control the board, so the
> turn shape is easier to control.
>
If you say so.
I always found that edge pressure gives better control. A flat board
can be turned, but its direction changes little.
taichiskiing
> "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1164048086....@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Bob F wrote:
> > >
> > > Even if it is "too much work", I will assure you that it makes a
> > > far more dependable turn initiation.
> >
> > Let the gravity to do the work, you don't have to fight the "warping
> > force" to turn.
>
> Release the edge at the front of the board allows gravity to
> do the work. You don't have to shove the board around
> by swinging your body and waving your arms like I see
> in your video.
When you can come down a double black diamond in a couple feet of
powder and cut up, then we can talk about it.
> > >
> > > Until you've learned to do it, I suspect discussion will be fruitless.
> >
> > So you haven't learned that communication is two traffic stuff, eh, can
> > you do the technique I described?
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > The motion you describe as twisting is rotation. Many boarders use
> the
> > > > > feet to rotate the board as you describe. That is not done with the
> > > > > technique. Instead, the twisting helps steer the board into the
> turn.
> > > > > Your body stays aligned with the board, and just follows it intothe
> > > turn.
> > > >
> > > > Without juggling the force/tension applied to "twist" the board, a
> > > > "rotated" board rides "flatter," so it glides better, steadier, and
> > > > the "turn shape" is much easier to managing.
> > >
> > > Is that right?
> >
> > Yes, flatter means more bottom-snow contact, so it glides steadier;
> > more bottom-snow contact means more ways to control the board, so the
> > turn shape is easier to control.
> >
>
> If you say so.
> I always found that edge pressure gives better control. A flat board
> can be turned, but its direction changes little.
Flatboarding boards/rides a "line," not a "turn, then a turn" type.
:)
IS
Alan Baker
"taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Bob F wrote:
> > "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1164048086....@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > Bob F wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Even if it is "too much work", I will assure you that it makes a
> > > > far more dependable turn initiation.
> > >
> > > Let the gravity to do the work, you don't have to fight the "warping
> > > force" to turn.
> >
> > Release the edge at the front of the board allows gravity to
> > do the work. You don't have to shove the board around
> > by swinging your body and waving your arms like I see
> > in your video.
>
> When you can come down a double black diamond in a couple feet of
> powder and cut up, then we can talk about it.
Can you? You've certainly never posted a video of you coming down
anything even moderately difficult...
> :)
> IS
--
'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
'Solaris is just a marketing rename of Sun OS.' -- 'Sun OS is not included
on the timeline of Solaris because it's a different OS.' (Edwin on Sun)
taichiskiing
> In article <1164060744.7...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Bob F wrote:
> > > "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1164048086....@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > > Bob F wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Even if it is "too much work", I will assure you that it makes a
> > > > > far more dependable turn initiation.
> > > >
> > > > Let the gravity to do the work, you don't have to fight the "warping
> > > > force" to turn.
> > >
> > > Release the edge at the front of the board allows gravity to
> > > do the work. You don't have to shove the board around
> > > by swinging your body and waving your arms like I see
> > > in your video.
> >
> > When you can come down a double black diamond in a couple feet of
> > powder and cut up, then we can talk about it.
>
> Can you? You've certainly never posted a video of you coming
> down anything even moderately difficult...
Maybe just you "open eye blind"?
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_boardh.wmv
(High res)
http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_boardl.wmv
(Low res)
:)
IS
> > :)
> > IS
Alan Baker
"taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
You call that "moderately difficult" do you?
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
The Real Bev
> "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Alan Baker wrote:
>> > ...Can you? You've certainly never posted a video of you coming
>> > down anything even moderately difficult...
>>
>> Maybe just you "open eye blind"?
>>
>> http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_boardh.wmv
>> (High res)
>> http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_boardl.wmv
>> (Low res)
>
> You call that "moderately difficult" do you?
Apparently it was for him. It certainly looked difficult. My big
grandspawn looked kind of like that after his first lesson just before
he fell. I guess if Itchy managed to stay on his feet it can be
considered a successful <snork> run .
--
Cheers, Bev
=================================================================
"In all recorded history there has not been one economist who has
had to worry about where the next meal would come from."
-- Peter S. Drucker, who invented management
Alan Baker
Sven Golly <sven_mede...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:1164048086....@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Let the gravity to do the work, you don't have to fight the "warping
> > force" to turn.
>
> That snowboard video of yours showed you fighting gravity the whole way
> down. Hopping, awkward weight shifts, balance problems, harsh twisting to
> bring the board around. Nothing smooth at all.
Yup.
I don't even snowboard and I can see that it is a perfect example of how
*not* to do it.
down_hill
> "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:1164048086....@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>>Let the gravity to do the work, you don't have to fight the "warping
>>force" to turn.
>
>
> That snowboard video of yours showed you fighting gravity the whole way
> down. Hopping, awkward weight shifts, balance problems, harsh twisting to
> bring the board around. Nothing smooth at all.
>
flat & boring reminds me of the religious right they are right you are
wrong and this gives me the will to torment you into giving up your
other ways and you will be come flat and boring & unbalanced like me!
VtSkier
> Bob F wrote:
>> "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1164048086....@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> Bob F wrote:
>>>> Even if it is "too much work", I will assure you that it makes a
>>>> far more dependable turn initiation.
>>> Let the gravity to do the work, you don't have to fight the "warping
>>> force" to turn.
>> Release the edge at the front of the board allows gravity to
>> do the work. You don't have to shove the board around
>> by swinging your body and waving your arms like I see
>> in your video.
>
> When you can come down a double black diamond in a couple feet of
> powder and cut up, then we can talk about it.
Would that be what I call powder? Or what some of my
utahrd friends call powder? Or what my Sierra and
Cascade skiing friends call powder?
The stuff LAL took me through on the back side of Alpine
on a sunny day could hardly be called powder, though it
was fresh and not excessively cut up.
Bob F
> Bob F wrote:
> > "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1164048086....@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > Bob F wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Even if it is "too much work", I will assure you that it makes a
> > > > far more dependable turn initiation.
> > >
> > > Let the gravity to do the work, you don't have to fight the "warping
> > > force" to turn.
> >
> > Release the edge at the front of the board allows gravity to
> > do the work. You don't have to shove the board around
> > by swinging your body and waving your arms like I see
> > in your video.
>
> When you can come down a double black diamond in a couple feet of
> powder and cut up, then we can talk about it.
>
That's the easiest time to do a double diamond.
It might be interesting to see flatboarding on a icy double
diamond bump slope. Personally, I'll choose my technique
until I see something a lot more impressive than your videos.
Bob
taichiskiing
Yes.
>
> LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Silly.
:)
IS
taichiskiing
> taichiskiing wrote:
.....
> > When you can come down a double black diamond in a couple
> > feet of powder and cut up, then we can talk about it.
>
> Would that be what I call powder? Or what some of my
> utahrd friends call powder? Or what my Sierra and
> Cascade skiing friends call powder?
If a rose is a rose is a rose, yes, those stuff was powder.
>
> The stuff LAL took me through on the back side of Alpine
> on a sunny day could hardly be called powder, though it
> was fresh and not excessively cut up.
What do you call that then?
'later, :)
IS
taichiskiing
> "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1164060744.7...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > Bob F wrote:
> > > "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1164048086....@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > > Bob F wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Even if it is "too much work", I will assure you that
> > > > > it makes a far more dependable turn initiation.
> > > >
> > > > Let the gravity to do the work, you don't have to fight
> > > > the "warping force" to turn.
> > >
> > > Release the edge at the front of the board allows gravity
> > > to do the work. You don't have to shove the board around
> > > by swinging your body and waving your arms like I see
> > > in your video.
> >
> > When you can come down a double black diamond in a couple
> > feet of powder and cut up, then we can talk about it.
> >
>
> That's the easiest time to do a double diamond.
Huh?! Have you done it?
> It might be interesting to see flatboarding on a icy double
> diamond bump slope. Personally, I'll choose my technique
> until I see something a lot more impressive than your videos.
Very impressive decision. Your prerogative.
:)
IS
>
>
> Bob
taichiskiing
> In article <Xns9881B5067...@66.75.164.120>,
> Sven Golly <sven_mede...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > news:1164048086....@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> >
> > > Let the gravity to do the work, you don't have to fight
> > > the "warping force" to turn.
> >
> > That snowboard video of yours showed you fighting gravity the whole way
> > down. Hopping, awkward weight shifts, balance problems, harsh twisting to
> > bring the board around. Nothing smooth at all.
To an untrained eye, that is.
>
> Yup.
>
> I don't even snowboard and I can see that it is a perfect
> example of how *not* to do it.
Yup, that's how a little/no knowledge pretends s/he knows.
:)
IS
VtSkier
> VtSkier wrote:
>> taichiskiing wrote:
> .....
>>> When you can come down a double black diamond in a couple
>>> feet of powder and cut up, then we can talk about it.
>> Would that be what I call powder? Or what some of my
>> utahrd friends call powder? Or what my Sierra and
>> Cascade skiing friends call powder?
>
> If a rose is a rose is a rose, yes, those stuff was powder.
New snow does not equal "powder".
>> The stuff LAL took me through on the back side of Alpine
>> on a sunny day could hardly be called powder, though it
>> was fresh and not excessively cut up.
>
> What do you call that then?
Wet cement.
> 'later, :)
> IS
>
Alan Baker
"taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
To call it "moderately difficult"? I agree.
Alan Baker
"taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Alan Baker wrote:
> > In article <Xns9881B5067...@66.75.164.120>,
> > Sven Golly <sven_mede...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > > news:1164048086....@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> > >
> > > > Let the gravity to do the work, you don't have to fight
> > > > the "warping force" to turn.
> > >
> > > That snowboard video of yours showed you fighting gravity the whole way
> > > down. Hopping, awkward weight shifts, balance problems, harsh twisting to
> > > bring the board around. Nothing smooth at all.
>
> To an untrained eye, that is.
Ah, but I agree, and mine is a trained eye.
>
> >
> > Yup.
> >
> > I don't even snowboard and I can see that it is a perfect
> > example of how *not* to do it.
>
> Yup, that's how a little/no knowledge pretends s/he knows.
>
> :)
> IS
--
Bob F
> > > feet of powder and cut up, then we can talk about it.
> > >
> >
> > That's the easiest time to do a double diamond.
>
> Huh?! Have you done it?
Yes. And loved it! That's what boarding is all about.
Bob
Bob F
> Alan Baker wrote:
> > In article <Xns9881B5067...@66.75.164.120>,
> > Sven Golly <sven_mede...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > > news:1164048086....@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> > >
> > > > Let the gravity to do the work, you don't have to fight
> > > > the "warping force" to turn.
> > >
> > > That snowboard video of yours showed you fighting gravity the whole
way
> > > down. Hopping, awkward weight shifts, balance problems, harsh twisting
to
> > > bring the board around. Nothing smooth at all.
>
> To an untrained eye, that is.
And to this trained eye. You really need to watch some good riders
and start to notice the differences.
Bob
taichiskiing
> In article <1164121623....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,> > > In article <Xns9881B5067...@66.75.164.120>,
> > > Sven Golly <sven_mede...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > > >
> > > > > Let the gravity to do the work, you don't have to fight
> > > > > the "warping force" to turn.
> > > >
> > > > down. Hopping, awkward weight shifts, balance problems, harsh twisting to
> > > > bring the board around. Nothing smooth at all.
> >
> > To an untrained eye, that is.
>
Or just a gaper's wishful thinking?
"Not sure you can ever see the truth with your double standards."
:)
IS
taichiskiing
> In article <1164115206.5...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Alan Baker wrote:
> > > In article <1164063244.5...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> > > "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Alan Baker wrote:
> > > > > In article <1164060744.7...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > "taichiskiing" <thedreamo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > When you can come down a double black diamond in a couple feet of
> > > > > > powder and cut up, then we can talk about it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Can you? You've certainly never posted a video of you coming
> > > > > down anything even moderately difficult...
> > > >
> > > > Maybe just you "open eye blind"?
> > > >
> > > > http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_boardh.wmv
> > > > (High res)
> > > > http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_boardl.wmv
> > > > (Low res)
> > >
> > > You call that "moderately difficult" do you?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > >
> > > LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
> >
> > Silly.
>
> To call it "moderately difficult"? I agree.
"Not sure you can ever see the truth with your double standards."
:)
IS
taichiskiing
That's ok, I'm a skier; I'm more interested in riding the skis than
riding the board nowadays. Besides, why should we trust "this trained
eye"?
No chance for you to show me the differences, eh? (How do we know that
you even snowboard?) Clips?
:)
IS
>
> Bob
taichiskiing
No chance for us to see how you do it brilliantly, eh? Clips?
:)
IS
>
> Bob
lal_truckee
>
> http://www.taomartialarts.com/ski/ski_v_is_boardh.wmv
> (High res)
That looks like excellent cruising conditions. You must have enjoyed the
day - perfect for big high speed GS fall line turns, lay some big arcs
through the crud. Fun for all. Raid the quiver for your longer, heavier
boards and let them rip.
But why were you demonstrating side slipping a snowboard for a video
camera when conditions were so fine for some fun cruising?
lal_truckee
>
> The stuff LAL took me through on the back side of Alpine
> on a sunny day could hardly be called powder, though it
> was fresh and not excessively cut up.
Hey! That was fun stuff - lay out some big trenches!
Except for the tree well.