Lightning Protection - What Do YOU Use?
Too_Many_Tools
used a different (or nonexistent) solution to lightning protection.
You can also see this attitude in antenna discussions...very little
discussion on proper grounding and lightning disappation.
So the question... what do YOU use for lightning protection to prevent
you and your radios from being turned into melted blobs of charred
tissue and plastic? Examples of proven designs with their accompanying
stories would be of particular interest.
TMT
John S.
Jim Hackett
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1117906442....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
FDR
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1117906442....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Unlikely that anything will survive a direct lightning strike without some
damage.
>
> TMT
>
;-p
Brian Hill
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1117906442....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Theres no such thing as lightning protection. A so called lightning
protector will gaurd against static charges that can build up on your ant.
from electrical storms but nothing can protect your radio from a close or
dirrect lightning strike to your ant. The only way to prevent damage is to
unhook the ant. I always unhook my ant. when I'm done.
--
73 and good DX. B.H.
Brian's Radio Universe
http://webpages.charter.net/brianhill/500.htm
mongo
from antenna. I was in the next room in the basement when I thought
someone shot one of my rifles. It jumped from the coax which was just
hanging on the wall to a weather radio antenna (indoor antenna), went
thru the weather radio and decided to spiderweb out o various parts of
the house. Burned up a chip board in a maytag washer, chip board in a
sony flat screen tv, hosed the weather radio, hosed the e port on a
linksys router, blew apart my rf systems balun and trashed a cable modem
. Everything was on a different circut.
r2000...@hotmail.com
Brian Hill wrote:
>
>
> Theres no such thing as lightning protection. A so called lightning
> protector will gaurd against static charges that can build up on your ant.
> from electrical storms but nothing can protect your radio from a close or
> dirrect lightning strike to your ant. The only way to prevent damage is to
> unhook the ant. I always unhook my ant. when I'm done.
>
>
> --
> 73 and good DX. B.H.
> Brian's Radio Universe
> http://webpages.charter.net/brianhill/500.htm
I don't want to start a pising contest, but you might want
to visit a local TV or radio station. They take lightning
hits all the time and very seldom have anythingmore then a
sec or 2 of off air to show for it.
Polyphaser(http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_ptd_home.aspx)
makes some very efective portectin gear that works.
Butyou have to ave a very good ground and well thought
out aproach to your wiring.
I have survived 2 direct hits. First time melted several feet from
my 108" whip and the last time vaporised my ~70' long wire, and
blew holes in the coax.
It ain't cheap but neither is a new house.
Terry
FDR
<r2000...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1117927974....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Brian Hill wrote:
>>
>>
>> Theres no such thing as lightning protection. A so called lightning
>> protector will gaurd against static charges that can build up on your
>> ant.
>> from electrical storms but nothing can protect your radio from a close or
>> dirrect lightning strike to your ant. The only way to prevent damage is
>> to
>> unhook the ant. I always unhook my ant. when I'm done.
>>
>>
>> --
>> 73 and good DX. B.H.
>> Brian's Radio Universe
>> http://webpages.charter.net/brianhill/500.htm
>
>
> I don't want to start a pising contest, but you might want
> to visit a local TV or radio station. They take lightning
> hits all the time and very seldom have anythingmore then a
> sec or 2 of off air to show for it.
And I'm sure it's very industrial and expensive gear.
Brian Hill
<r2000...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> I don't want to start a pising contest, but you might want
> to visit a local TV or radio station. They take lightning
> hits all the time and very seldom have anythingmore then a
> sec or 2 of off air to show for it.
>
> Polyphaser(http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_ptd_home.aspx)
> makes some very efective portectin gear that works.
> Butyou have to ave a very good ground and well thought
> out aproach to your wiring.
>
> I have survived 2 direct hits. First time melted several feet from
> my 108" whip and the last time vaporised my ~70' long wire, and
> blew holes in the coax.
>
> It ain't cheap but neither is a new house.
>
> Terry
>
Yes but the average Joe isn't going to want to spend a bazillion dollars and
countless hours doing what it takes to install an effective system. I'm
just giving practical cost saving advice to the average / casual SW listener
and anybody that is going to jump into a major system like your talking
about would surely be an advanced hobbyist and have done his/her homework
and not be asking the question in such basic terms.
w_tom
disconnect during T-storms to protect that $multi-million
computer? Of course not. Protection for each switching
station has been standard and well proven effective since
before WWII - even before transistors existed. It is routine
to suffer direct strikes and not suffer damage.
The secret is a most critical component of the protection
system - the single point earth ground. Each incoming wire
connects to earthing either via a direct (and short) wire, or
via a surge protector. A surge protector is not protection.
Effective protector connects destructive transients to earth
ground. Protection is defined by single point earth ground -
quality of and distance connected to.
Notice how a properly installed CATV enters the building.
First it drops down to single point earthing, makes a less
than 10 foot connection, and only then rises back up to enter
the building. Wire to and wire from that earthing point must
be separated. Protection is as Ben Franklin demonstrated in
1752. Lightning is not stopped, blocked, or absorbed - as
those who promote ineffective plug-in protectors would claim.
Earth before lightning can enter a building to overwhelm
protection already inside all electronic appliances.
Same applies to that radio antenna. First make a short
connection to earth ground between receiver and antenna.
Another poster properly cited Polyphaser: a benchmark in
protection. Read their tech notes. Does Polyphaser promote
their products? No. Polyphaser is about effective
protection. They discuss earthing ... extensively. The
protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
Even that wall receptacle safety ground is not earth
ground. This for electrical reasons posted elsewhere.
Another good source are discussions in
rec.radio.amateur.antenna such as "Why a Short Lightning
Ground" - especially posts from Richard Harrison and Jack
Painter at:
http://tinyurl.com/ao36t
Anyone who says lightning protection is not possible must
explain why effective and properly earthed protection works
every year in virtually every town. They must explain why
electronics atop the Empire State Building and WTC would
suffer 25 and 40 direct strikes every year without damage.
Those who claim lightning protection is not possible failed to
first learn a science well proven over 60 years ago.
BTW, every incoming utility wire is just another antenna
connected to everything inside a building. The most common
source of destructive transients is AC electric - wires
highest on poles and utility that typically provides no
secondary protection. You must install the secondary
protection - ie the 'whole house' protector. Every incoming
wire requires either a direct connection to building's earth
ground OR makes that short connection via a 'whole house'
protector.
Protection so effective and so inexpensive as to even be
installed, for free, by the telco on your incoming phone
line. Protection is defined by and is only as effective as
the single point earth ground. Ineffective plug-in
protectors, instead, avoid all mention about earthing (since
they are promoting profits and not an effective product).
FDR
"w_tom" <w_t...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42A261E2...@hotmail.com...
There certainly isn't a short connection to ground in those cases.
Too_Many_Tools
I take lightning protection very seriously.
I have seen the results of what happens when an antenna and equipment
is not protected adequately....equipment fried, people suffering severe
shocks and fires started.
An example, one time I was in the basement of a friend who is a very
serious ham. With his feed line disconnected from his gear, we watched
as a storm induced voltage repeatily jumped over three feet through the
air to the basement floor. Even with the feed line disconnected,
several of his radios were damaged by induced voltages.
TMT
w_tom
Demonstrated by professional research even on the Empire State
Building in the 1930s. Electrical concepts that are beyond
the scope of this discussion. Protection, proven effective
even before WWII, is about earthing. Even that coax wire from
Dish must drop down to a single point earth ground before
entering the building.
How to identify ineffective protectors: 1) No dedicated
connection to earth ground and 2) manufacturer routinely
avoids all mention of earthing. Since rules demonstrate why
protectors sold in Kmart, Sears, Staples, Radio Shack,
Walmart, Office Max, etc are ineffective (as well as
overpriced). Earthing having been long proven as essential to
effective protection as demonstrated by Polyphaser (cited
previously in a post from r2000swler) and in previous
discussions including industry professional at
http://tinyurl.com/ao36t
FDR wrote:
> "w_tom" <w_t...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:42A261E2...@hotmail.com...
r2000...@hotmail.com
Yes but the average Joe isn't going to want to spend a bazillion
dollars and
countless hours doing what it takes to install an effective system.
I'm
just giving practical cost saving advice to the average / casual SW
listener
and anybody that is going to jump into a major system like your talking
about would surely be an advanced hobbyist and have done his/her
homework and not be asking the question in such basic terms.
--
-------------------------------
Given my home is worth over 100K and my equipment as several
thosand if I could find replacements, the few hundred that I spent
was well worth the expense.
Anyone who has an outside antenna, with a feedline that enters
the buidling, had damn well better do some serious planing
and research to make certain they are compling with the local
electrical codes. Failure may result in criminal charges if anyone
gets hurt, and thye could have a nasty suprise if their insurance
carrier finds out the house fire was casued by an improper, ie
non code, installation. Many policies have exclussions for code
violations.
I wonder how many or few in this groud are aware of the NEC
requirements that "coax have the outer conductor connected to a
valid, bonded ground, before being brought inside, or being
grouned as soon as praticable"(their word not mine).
Very few installations that I am aware of even meet the most basic
safety requirements.
I gues hope and prayer might be an effective way to protect your
equipment and home from lightening, but I will stick with Polyphaser.
The primary reason why I am not that active in ham radio is I can't
afford enough protection for an unlimited numver of antennas.
So my scanner diskcone has to pull double duty and work for my
2M, 70cM opertions, mainly for weather emergencies.
I have 6 PolyPhaser units and I only use 4 of them, keeping 2 for
spares.
3 for "my" radio equipment, and 1 for the family TV/VCR.
Terry
B. Otten
>>So the question... what do YOU use for lightning protection to prevent
>>you and your radios from being turned into melted blobs of charred
>>tissue and plastic? Examples of proven designs with their accompanying
>>stories would be of particular interest.
>>
>>TMT
My answer was precisely as laid out by w_tom1. A single point ground
system. I had the benefits of many discussions with PolyPhaser after
taking a strike, not to my 65' radio tower and antenna, but apparently
to the periphery of the house or the telephone company connections. The
result was blowing, shattering, destroying 6 feet of ceramic tile at the
back of my home. It was thought that the strike may have contacted steel
re-bar in the concrete slab of my home. Regardless, some 90 feet from
the back of the house the underground phone connection was shrapnel, to
a point where the phone company had never seen before. The fiberglass
cover to the junction box at the street was found 120 feet away. The
phone box on the side of my house was blown off the house. I vowed not
to have it happen again. Within weeks, I was invited to attend a Florida
Power conference on lightning damage prevention, had numerous calls with
PolyPhaser (an outstanding company). The single point ground was
designed and installed. Details are at my web site:
http://www.knology.net/~res0958z/ along with many pictures of the
install. The basics of a single point ground are that ALL points are
connected to ONE single point ground so that no variance of potential
can exist between any two pieces of conductor. If a variance exists you
get current between the differing potentials and current means voltage
flows. When all points rise and fall at the same potential, no variance
exists. I still cringe when our frequent lightning storms roll in here
in Lightning Alley in west central Florida, but I'm certain I'm much
better protected now than before my strike.
Bill
KC9CS
FDR
> Short connection to earth exists atop skyscrapers.
If short you mean 1000 ft. or more, sure.
r2000...@hotmail.com
Details are at my web site: http://www.knology.net/~res0958z/ along
with many pictures of the install. The basics of a single point ground
------------------------
Thanks for the detailed photos of your installation.
I now have a target to try for.
Terry
Jim Douglas
when not being used. During storms I always check the SW radio and my new
LCD TV to be sure they are totally disconnected, antenna, cable and power!
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1117906442....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
dxAce
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
My antennas here (70' and 200' wires) are transformer matched and grounded at
the feedpoint. From there the coax runs underground to the basement where they
enter Transi-Trap devices which are grounded. Up from that point the coax goes
to a antenna switch. When I'm not listening, at least in summer, I disconnect
the feed to the receivers.
dxAce
Michigan
USA
Brian Hill
"Jim Douglas" <james....@genesis-software.com> wrote in message
news:kqadnQdgL6C...@comcast.com...
>I have a quick disconnect to the long wire antenna and it's disconnected
> when not being used. During storms I always check the SW radio and my new
> LCD TV to be sure they are totally disconnected, antenna, cable and power!
>
That's what I do too Jim. My switch terminates the ant to grd. My point is
that most casual listeners with modestly priced radios will not go and spend
hundreds or more on adequate lightning and ground systems for their radio
they just bought on Ebay for $200. But they can or will buy a ground rod and
a good ant switch with a grounding lug and unhook the radio when not in use.
I don't know why they can't see the point I'm trying to make.
Brian Hill
Eric F. Richards
> Brian Hill wrote:
>
> Yes but the average Joe isn't going to want to spend a bazillion
> dollars and
> countless hours doing what it takes to install an effective system.
[...]
> Given my home is worth over 100K and my equipment as several
> thosand if I could find replacements, the few hundred that I spent
> was well worth the expense.
...and it doesn't have to be even a few hundred. A PolyPhaser costs
between $60 and $90, depending on how fancy you get, but even a
"simple" one at 3 times the cost of a competitor's model, installed
properly, will do a good job, it's a bargain.
"Installed properly" is an important issue. The thing about lightning
mitigation is that you have to be positively anally-retentive about
setting the system up properly. One TINY mistake and your system
doesn't do crap.
How tiny a mistake?
If you had a tower, the difference between running your coaxial lines
to the ground level before heading over to the house and running them
off the tower at 8 feet above ground is the difference between no
damage and complete destruction.
PolyPhaser has a number of papers on their website, some of which are
oriented towards hams and SWLs. They are worth your time.
(I have no affiliation except for being an extremely satisfied
customer who has survived a direct strike on an antenna -- and
PolyPhaser wanted to exchange my supressor so they could study how it
did.)
--
Eric F. Richards
efr...@dimensional.com
"Nature abhors a vacuum tube." -- Myron Glass,
often attributed to J. R. Pierce, Bell Labs, c. 1940
Eric F. Richards
...this is one of the reasons that you want to have a lightning
mitigation system. Taking your equipment off the antenna would seem
like the logical thing to do, but now, where's the alternate
low-resistance path to ground? You have none. The lightning has lept
the distance from cloud to ground -- another 10 feet isn't going to be
difficult.
See my earlier post on PolyPhasers. They work when properly set up,
they aren't that expensive, and they keep repeaters, radio stations,
television stations, ham rigs... and my radios going through direct
strikes.
RHF
.
Far-End-Fed 'Low Noise' Inverted "L" Antenna
- 25 Foot Vertical-Up-Leg
- 75 Foot Horizontal-Out-Arm
Laid Out : North-to-South
Antenna Element : #14 AWG Insulated Stranded (19) Copper Wire
Matching Transformer (UnUn) : RF Junkie "SWL-1" 10:1 MLB
Remote {Primary} Ground : 8 Foot Ground Rod
Feed-in-Line : RG8 Coax Cable
Shack's Ground : 8 Foot Ground Rod
Feed-Line-Isolator : : RF Junkie 1:1 UnUn
.
Antenna-and-Ground System :
The Feed-Point of the Inverted "L" Antenna is at the Far-End
of the Antenna away from the House. At the Bottom of the
Vertical-Up-Leg of the Antenna a 'remote' earthen Ground
Rod is installed in the Ground. The Matching Transformer
(UnUn/MLB) is Mounted directly on the Top of the Ground
Rod. The Feed-in-Line Coax Cable is run directly under the
Horizontal-Out-Arm of the Wire Antenna Element; and is
Buried about 6"-8" under the surface of the ground. The
Feed-in-Line comes out of the ground near the House and is
connected to a Feed-Line-Isolator that is mounted on the Shack's
Outside Ground Rod using two Hose Clamps on the two PL-259
Plugs connected to both ends of the Isolator. The second 20 Foot
piece of Coax Cable goes up to the Shack's Antenna Switch that
is tied to the Shack's Ground. Finally a 3 Foot piece of Coax
Cable is connected to the Receiver which is also tied to the Shack's
Ground. When the Receiver is not in use the Antenna Switch is
'set' to the Center "Grounded" Position.
.
Got the Idea for this Set-up from the Wellbrook (UK) webpage for
Low Noise Antenna using the Universal Magnetic Balun and the
Antenna Feeder Isolator. Take-a-Look & Check-it-Out :
http://www.wellbrook.uk.com/longwire.html
Two Drawings : The Wrong Way and Right Way by Wellbrook.
.
iane ~ RHF
. . . . .
w_tom
skyscrapers - which is well beyond the scope of this
discussion. If one has problems with this, then they can take
it up with those 1930s GE scientists. Skyscraper height is
not relevant here. Earthing connection must be short: ie
'less than 10 feet' for each incoming utility wire.
The point: protection is only as effective as the earth
ground. Single point earthing as discussed previously by
Polyphaser and at
http://tinyurl.com/ao36t
Earthing even required for underground utility wires. A
buried wire may carry destructive incoming transients as
described by a Polyphaser tech note and demonstrated by this
application note entitled "The Need for Coordinated
Protection" from another industry professional:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf
Note the earthing system demonstrated by r2000swler. Same
concept of a good, bad, and ugly earthing system is also
demonstrated by a utility:
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm
FDR wrote:
> "w_tom" <w_t...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
w_tom
lead inside a mason jar. They would still suffer damage.
Another here demonstrated the concept in discussing arcs to a
concrete basement floor.
Earthing even a disconnected antenna is necessary.
Furthermore, earthing without disconnecting costs so little
AND is so effective. Disconnecting or protectors alone are
not protection. Protection is earth ground. Everything else
is only as effective as the connection to that single point
earth ground.
FDR
> Industry sources explain why earthing exists atop
> skyscrapers - which is well beyond the scope of this
> discussion. If one has problems with this, then they can take
> it up with those 1930s GE scientists. Skyscraper height is
> not relevant here. Earthing connection must be short: ie
> 'less than 10 feet' for each incoming utility wire.
Just responding to the other posters claim of length.
Michael A. Terrell
>
> I don't want to start a pising contest, but you might want
> to visit a local TV or radio station. They take lightning
> sec or 2 of off air to show for it.
Really? A friend of mine makes over half his income from repairing
lightning damaged radio stations here in Florida. While I was the
engineer at WACX TV lightning hit their studio building in Leesburg
Florida. It took ot the entire telephone system, the main computer, all
the terminals, all the LNAs on the C-band dish, most of the receivers
and the 11 GHZ CARS transmitter that fed the original transmitter site.
It took months to repair everything, including replacing the vaporized
grounding system. true, if you're in an area that rarely get nearby
lightning strikes, but there have been storms here with over 1100
strikes in 30 minutes. The continuous EMP weakens things, and there are
a lot of failures because of this. I lost all three video amps in a
computer monitor when lightning hit the water behind my workshop. It
wasn't plugged in, and the video cable was wrapped around the tilt
stand, yet enough voltage was induced into the cable to blow a crater in
the video amp chips. A battery powered digital thermometer hanging on
the wall exploded. The IC was vaporized and a hole burnt in the circuit
board. In truth, there is little that can be don to protect you from a
direct lightning strike. AM radio towers have a huge spark gap at the
base to protect the insulator, but damage to the antenna system are
common. Also, a lot of stations have a spare transmitter that's already
hot, so they can switch over and get back on the air, "In a couple
seconds"
--
Former professional electron wrangler.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Michael A. Terrell
Do you write this drivel every time, or do you copy and past it?
Once again, your knowledge of a number of systems is evident. I have
seen a lot of damaged telco equipment. In fact, I've been in the Sprint
warehouse in Eustis, Florida where they had skids full of lightning
damaged circuit boards being sold as scrap. If the wire is never
damaged, why do they build their plant with extra pairs? Those pairs
are exempt from tariffs, as long as they are only used to replace a
damaged pair. I lost my underground phone line when lighting struck an
old barn on our property. We had a light out there, so lightning got
into our electrical service. Everything critical was on plug in MOV
protectors and they all survived. The lightning jumped from the
underground power line to Sprint's buried line which they had installed
a few inches from the existing buried power line. The pair of wires was
vaporized to the street which was over a mile. It wiped out the line
card in the pedestal, and the pair back to the CO was damaged. All 16
customers fed by that pair had excessive noise on their phones so they
had to switch to one of the spare pairs. That lightning strike did
thousands of dollars worth of damage to their equipment, and took weeks
to fix. Now, tell us again that Telcos don't suffer lightning damage.
No One You Know
homeowners insurance" is the only true protection for a lightning
strike and that is still the surest bet.
NOYK in SW Ocala
Eric F. Richards
Yes, some TV stations get damaged. But invariably they violate the
proper designs of a lightning mitigation system. All that it takes
is a single conductor that doesn't go through the ground window.
Years ago I worked on a fairly expensive project, set up on a mesa in
Colorado, with an antenna higher than any object in about a 5 mile
radius. The other users of that site were habitual in plugging
something into the protected side of the ground window and then
putting on a metal rack on the unprotected side of the window.
Because of that habit, they will no doubt lose their equipment in a
direct strike.
...and there's no need.
As for damage to the antenna systems... some times it can't be
avoided. But many times it can. In that case, all it needs to have
is a low impedence path to ground in the case that lightning strikes.
Gas discharge tubes (or spark gaps, but far less controllable) provide
that during a strike. The tube has to be able to survive for the
lifetime of the strike, no longer. If it shorts, well... it did its
*job*.
Telamon
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
He is a well know Troll and been around for years. He is in just about
any new group that has to do with electronics or electricity or phones.
A Google search will show he infests many news groups. Always the same
line of crap. A real nut case.
Do yourself a big favor and drop kick him into the kill file.
--
Telamon
Ventura, California
Michael A. Terrell
No, everything went through one ground, but the strike wasn't on the
tower, it hit the poured concrete building in multiple locations. It
was a single level, flat roof with a wall around the outside edge. The
concrete finish cap was missing in a lot of places after the storm.
> Years ago I worked on a fairly expensive project, set up on a mesa in
> Colorado, with an antenna higher than any object in about a 5 mile
> radius. The other users of that site were habitual in plugging
> something into the protected side of the ground window and then
> putting on a metal rack on the unprotected side of the window.
> Because of that habit, they will no doubt lose their equipment in a
> direct strike.
>
> ...and there's no need.
>
> As for damage to the antenna systems... some times it can't be
> avoided. But many times it can. In that case, all it needs to have
> is a low impedence path to ground in the case that lightning strikes.
> Gas discharge tubes (or spark gaps, but far less controllable) provide
> that during a strike. The tube has to be able to survive for the
> lifetime of the strike, no longer. If it shorts, well... it did its
> *job*.
>
> --
> Eric F. Richards
When the strike hits the building rather than the tower, its going to
do damage. There were chunks of concrete blown out of the building,
exposing rebar and 1" threaded rod that held the concrete roof to the
pillars in the parking lot. The ground conductors for the building
vaporized, but it was replaced with newer and heavier grounding,
including a 4" metal conduit run from the equipment racks to the
tower. I moved the microwave racks from the center of the building into
a tiny closet as close to the tower as I could, rebuilt all of the
electronics, and added another set of ground rods where the 4" conduit
entered the building. After that, there has been no damage, even though
the tower has had some strikes. It will fail again, some day because
the weather here in Central Florida corrodes everything over time.
Michael A. Terrell
I know he's a troll, but I don't want others to be fooled by his cut
and paste BS. I think he does a search for the word lightning and
attacks. Maybe I should change the "Organization" line of my header so
he'll see every post I make, in every newsgroup. If enough people did
that he would have to work quite hard to troll.
Michael A. Terrell
It cost our insurance company some money, but I'll bet that Sprint
spent $10,000 to fix everything in that Lake County strike that
vaporized the underground phone line. They had to bury a new 25 pair
line to all the pedestals on my road, and a new six pair a quarter mile
to the house because everyone on the old cable had intermittent noise on
their phones. They had to replace the guts in several pedestals because
their lightning protectors failed and left nice burn marks.
BTW, are you getting ready for the hurricane season? I'd like to buy
a 3 KW or larger generator while we have the sales tax holiday, but I
just don't have the extra cash right now. I finally got a truck and
fixed it so I don't have to depend on someone else to take me places.
I've already spent $200 on it in less than two weeks and I still need to
fix the air conditioner.
Brian Hill
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:42A3F62B...@earthlink.net...
Well Michael. I've never heard of anyone's radio surviving a direct hit so
it was news to me. I've seen guys put ground radial out like a spiderwebs
all around their towers but I'm not convinced anything can absorb the entire
brunt of a direct strike without some energy traveling up the feed line.
Every ham or electronics tech I've ever spoke too has said just unhook your
equipment in a storm and save yourself some grief.
Brian Running
> and paste BS.
He showed up in a bass player's newsgroup a couple of months ago with
endless, rambling posts about power conditioning and voltage-spike
protection -- just tons of unintelligible gibberish, cut and pasted
without any sense or conclusion. He avoided every question posed to him
with more loads of gibberish. Weird guy, but some people are taken in
by his quasi-knowledgeable tone.
r2000...@hotmail.com
Really? A friend of mine makes over half his income from repairing
lightning damaged radio stations here in Florida. While I was the
engineer at WACX TV lightning hit their studio building in Leesburg
Florida. It took ot the entire telephone system, the main computer,
all
the terminals, all the LNAs on the C-band dish, most of the receivers
....
--------------------------
I have done lots of contract work in area TV and radio (AM and FM)
stations. I have been inside working during seeral T-storms. Other
then the joy of having florescent lamps that are not turned on act like
strobes, and having the power dip for a moment, MOST of the time
there was no damge, to anything other then my nerves.
I know that commercial broadcaster can and do experience damage,
but most ot the time strikes don't damage anything. One local station
gets struck "every" time it clouds up and they go years without damage.
Of course the ham repeater there doesn't fair as well.
Funny the commercial 2 way radio repeaters have about as few
problems as the broadcaster. Of course the commercial boys
use Polyphaser protectors and the,the last time I checked,
had another make of "lightning/EMP" protection.
Same make antennas, hardline and grounding system, just different
protection.
That was proof enough for me.
If I gave the impression that I thought that Polyphaser clamps and a
good ground system will prevent damage, sorry, but it will certainly
reduce
the damage and increase the years of trouble free operation.
Terry
w_tom
lightning damage." Meanwhile professionals learn from human
mistakes and routinely prevent lightning damage:
Richard Harrison posts on 7 May 2001 in the newsgroup
rec.radio.amateur.antenna entitled "Grounding Question -
Connecting to Power Ground":
> Early in 1949 I started work in broadcasting. I worked in three
> stations in that year, KPRC, KXYZ, and KTHT. The first two were
> built in the 1930`s and KTHT was about one year old when I went
> to work there in 1949.
> None of these stations ever suffered lightning damage when
> taking many direct hits during every year. In fact they only
> dropped from the air for an instant, to extinguish any
> follow-through arcing when hit, and were returned to the air
> automatically following an arc kill.
> In 1949 there were already thousands of AM broadcast stations.
> Some were improperly protected against lightninmg, but the vast
> majority, like the stations I worked at, were almost perfectly
> protected against lightning damage, and so it was almost
> unheard of.
> Ben Franklin figured how to protect structures against lightning
> over 200 years ago. The rest is just elaboration.
Or http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html
> Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning
> 30 years, that you can design a system that will handle *direct
> lightning strikes* on a routine basis. It takes some planning
> and careful layout, but it's not hard, nor is it overly
> expensive. At WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct lightning
> strikes nearly every time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime
> from such strikes is almost non-existant. The last time we
> went down from a strike, it was due to a strike on the power
> company's lines knocking *them* out, ...
> Since my disasterous strike, I've been campaigning vigorously
> to educate amateurs that you *can* avoid damage from direct
> strikes. The belief that there's no protection from direct
> strike damage is *myth*. ...
> The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly
> simple, and surprisingly less than obvious. Of course you
> *must* have a single point ground system that eliminates all
> ground loops. And you must present a low *impedance* path for
> the energy to go. That's most generally a low *inductance*
> path rather than just a low ohm DC path.
And even from Sun Microsystems "Planning guide for Sun
Server room":
http://www.sun.com/servers/white-papers/dc-planning-guide.pdf
> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted.
> The plans for the data center should be thoroughly reviewed
> to identify any paths for surge entry into the data center.
> Surge arrestors can be designed into the system to help
> mitigate the potential for lightning damage within the data
> center. These should divert the power of the surge by
> providing a path to ground for the surge energy.
Did Michael Terrell cite technical facts? Of course not.
Others here have posted how damage is routinely avoided.
Thank you Michael for your insults. When do you provide a
single reason why this well proven science does not work? Its
been a few years. When do you provide one good technical
reason?
Others who learned from lightning damage eliminate a failure
rather than just replace electronics. Michael endorses
failure as if it was situation normal. Even children are
taught not to be quitters. Damage from direct lightning
strikes is routinely avoided.
So which week was Michael's town without phone service while
the telco switching computer was replaced? Oh? They don't
disconnect that computer from overhead wires everywhere in
town during thunderstorms? How can that be when Michael says
protection is not effective?
Brian Hill
Go away! Your weird! We don't want to talk to you Mr. Electro Troll.
B.H.
w_tom
http://tinyurl.com/dpvxj :
> Speak for yourselves...i think i'm acutally learning
> something from all this
No One You Know
here in central Florida there can be an average lightning strikes in
the thousands for each storm. Not your typical anywhere else in the US.
That being said, there is no protection from a direct hit. Never was
and never will be( affordable anyway). You can protect from near hits
though through proper grounding. Heck, when I lived in northern
Michigan I would get a static charge from a snow storm at times.
Protect as well as can be done affordable and then rely on you
homeowners policy to pick up the pieces. After all, thats why you
bought insurance isn't it?
Yeah Mike, we're getting some things together again but I'm not going
for a generator yet, just canned goods and LP tanks and batteries etc.
I guess we should board up in June and take the boards off in December.
Makes for a dark summer ;-p
w_tom
It is the CG (cloud to ground) type lightning that causes
electronics damage. Typically, the resulting destructive
transient occurs about once every eight years. In Central
Florida, this number is higher. I have seen estimates of once
every two years.
But this is a regional average. Other conditions such as
underlying geology change this number for neighborhoods and
even between homes. To better determine a threat risk, one
should learn the neighborhood history.
Regionally, FL has some of the higher number of CG
lightning. But WV has some of the highest numbers 'per
thunderstorm'. Another region of concern is a large area
between AZ and NM. The mid west may have spectacular
thunderstorms, but the frequency of CG lightning in this
region is low.
No One You Know wrote:
Michael A. Terrell
>
> Michael Terrell cries, "Woe is me. Nothing can prevent
> lightning damage." Meanwhile professionals learn from human
> mistakes and routinely prevent lightning damage:
> Richard Harrison posts on 7 May 2001 in the newsgroup
> rec.radio.amateur.antenna entitled "Grounding Question -
> Connecting to Power Ground":
> > Early in 1949 I started work in broadcasting. I worked in three
> > stations in that year, KPRC, KXYZ, and KTHT. The first two were
> > built in the 1930`s and KTHT was about one year old when I went
> > to work there in 1949.
>
> > None of these stations ever suffered lightning damage when
> > taking many direct hits during every year. In fact they only
> > dropped from the air for an instant, to extinguish any
> > follow-through arcing when hit, and were returned to the air
> > automatically following an arc kill.
>
> > In 1949 there were already thousands of AM broadcast stations.
> > Some were improperly protected against lightninmg, but the vast
> > majority, like the stations I worked at, were almost perfectly
> > protected against lightning damage, and so it was almost
> > unheard of.
>
> > Ben Franklin figured how to protect structures against lightning
> > over 200 years ago. The rest is just elaboration.
Poor ole Ben got SOME things right. Others were as wrong as you
are. Early lightning rods caused damage because they didn't understand
how they really worked, or how to properly install them. Have you ever
seen an old building burn down after lightning hit the old "Franklin
Style" lightning rods? Have you seen the way the sections were
connected together with no consideration of minimizing and maintaining a
very low resistance at each connection? The heavy twisted braid used
where the rod across the roof tuned sharply to go down the side of the
building? Yes sir! Ole Ben sure know how to attract lightning and that
was all. The rest of the system was a hack.
> Or http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html
> > Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning
> > 30 years, that you can design a system that will handle *direct
> > lightning strikes* on a routine basis. It takes some planning
> > and careful layout, but it's not hard, nor is it overly
> > expensive. At WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct lightning
> > strikes nearly every time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime
> > from such strikes is almost non-existant. The last time we
> > went down from a strike, it was due to a strike on the power
> > company's lines knocking *them* out, ...
A TV tower is fully grounded, and generally heavier than an AM radio
tower which is insulated from ground and depends on a pair of large
balls to make the lightning arc to ground. I used to have what was left
of a set that was hit too many times and shattered.
I have cited a lot of things in the past, and you've always ignored
them. You've been spreading the party line of lies for years, ignoring
every statement and reference.
Here you are parroting other people's data. You did not do the
research, or the actual work. I'm surprised you didn't toss in "The
Empire State building" as usual. You refuse to accept that grounding
systems deteriorate with age, or can be damaged. WLBE in Lake County
Florida lost most of their antenna grounding system when a mall was
built next door. The workers crossed the property line with a bulldozer
and ripped out half of the buried 4" copper strapping. The antennas sit
on two platforms in a marsh and can be hit repeatedly during a single
storm. In fact, it doesn't even have to storm to see and hear the bolt
strike one, or both towers. Over time something fails. I asked the
engineer to go on line and tell you himself but Frank simply laughed and
said that you were too damn stupid to know what he was talking about. I
think he's right. You've never worked here in Florida, or seen the
damage caused by repeated strikes on a single structure in a short time
frame. Pieces of steel warped from the high current flow, or other
equipment damaged by induced current from the EMP. You are a troll. On
the atomic chart you would be Hydrogen. You are stupid, pig headed, and
a pimple on the ass of Usenet. You only care about pushing your
harebrained agenda. You refuse to listen to those with experience.
Yes there are things that can be done to reduce lightning damage.
Yes, systems fail. Nothing man-made is perfect, nor will it ever be. As
long as you keep spreading your lies and half truths, people will call
you on it. You are not only stupid, you're dangerous.
> Others who learned from lightning damage eliminate a failure
> rather than just replace electronics. Michael endorses
> failure as if it was situation normal. Even children are
> taught not to be quitters. Damage from direct lightning
> strikes is routinely avoided.
I have tried several times in the past to explain induced secondary
damage, but it bounces right off your thick skull. It doesn't fit your
agenda so you ignore it.
> So which week was Michael's town without phone service while
> the telco switching computer was replaced? Oh? They don't
> disconnect that computer from overhead wires everywhere in
> town during thunderstorms? How can that be when Michael says
> protection is not effective?
Once again, you are telling a big ole pack of lies. I stated that a
pair in a buried line from my house to the equipment pedestal a mile
away was vaporized, that the cards on that line were fried, and that the
pair from the equipment pedestal to the CO was damaged so bad they had
to abandon it, and replace the interface card at the CO. You are as
dense as the operator at Sprint who had to yell over the static on the
damaged pair to ask "Are you sure there is something wrong with your
telephone service?". It is you that spreads the lie that telephone
equipment is never damaged by lightning.
I never said the whole town was without phone service. On the other
hand, one whole exchange (10,000 phone numbers) was out of service for
about 24 hours back in the '80s after a storm. The contractor didn't
assemble the buss bars properly, a pinhole leak dripped into the buss
duct and it exploded. The idiots had assembled the buss bars with zinc
plated bolts and the damage was so bad they had to replace most of the
buss bars, and replace the zinc plated steel bolts with the proper brass
bolts.
w_tom
... because the human has failed to install or maintain the
most critical component in a lightning protection system:
earth ground. So what is Michael's point? Whether it be
lightning rod or radio station or telephone central office
switching station. They all suffer direct lightning strikes
and must not suffer damage. Protection is defined by quality
of and connection to earth ground which is why properly
earthed facilities need not suffer damage.
Bulldozers rip out a ground system for a radio station.
That proves that lightning damage cannot be avoided? That
demonstrates why lightning damage is due to human failure.
Yes grounding systems can also deteriorate with age. If a
human does not maintain it, then lightning damage can occur.
Human failure. Protection is only as good as its earth
ground. So what is your point? That one should quit because
lightning damage is unavoidable?
I was building surge protectors decades ago. Some
unfortunate failures. Some spectacular successes. One never
resolved mystery. One fact was consistently demonstrated and
repeated by industry professionals even in IEEE papers.
Protection is only as effective as its earth ground. By your
own examples, inferior earth grounds can result in damage.
Improper connections of a lightning rod to its earth ground
caused failure. So what? Inferior earth grounds are examples
of human failure. Earthing defines protection from lightning.
Michael Terrell demonstrates that damage occurs when the
human does not install or maintain sufficient earthing.
However since protection might not be large enough for the
rare 200K amp lightning strike, then we should never bother
with any protection? What kind of reasoning is that?
Most all lightning strikes do so little damage as to not
even leave indications on trees. Even 12 AWG wire (20 amp
wire inside walls) is more than sufficient to earth most
direct lightning strikes. But we install even heavier wire
and earthing grounds to lightning rods so that even larger
direct strikes cause no damage. In many locations, human do
not install protection for the 200,000 amp strike because such
strikes just don't happen. Where it does happen, the earthing
system is enhanced. Even in Central FL, professionals have
installed earthing systems to make damage irrelevant. Humans
also fix the earthing systems when bulldozers rip it out
because proper earthing is that essential to protection.
For locations with no protection, even a single 8 foot earth
ground rod is a massive improvement. Again repeating the
point. Protection is only as good as the earth ground.
Damage from lightning is directly traceable to human failure.
In locations where a human will never see a 200K lightning
strike in his lifetime (which is most places), then even a
simple eight foot earth ground rod is sufficient. But should
earthing need be marginally improved, then size and cost of
that earthing system increases quickly.
Others fixed their earthing systems and stopped suffering
damage in Central FL. That is the point. Eliminating damage
starts with and is defined by the quality of earth ground and
connections to it. Even 25 strike per year to TV and FM
stations on the Empire State Building need not cause damage -
which is where much of the original research was conducted.
Michael Terrell says that is wrong because humans will not
maintain their earthing systems? Quitters logic.
Michael promotes a quitters attitude. Yes, a lightning
protection system may fail to earth an extremely rare 200,000
amp strike. Yes, most locations don't protect from the 200K
lightning strike because such lightning never occurs. So
what? Therefore he advocate no protection? Why advocate a
quitters attitude? Protection is defined by earth ground.
Properly installed earthing systems can even earth 200K
lightning strikes. But a damaged earth ground system means
damage can occur. Damage avoided if the earthing system been
repaired and was sufficient.
Other radio stations in central FL addressed earthing
problems and don't experience repeated failures. Central FL
requires even better earthing systems. Maybe they also
maintain their earthing systems? How can that be? Well some
humans accept failure as situation normal. Others fix problems
before failure occurs. Some may even insult to prove their
point. But those other radio stations fixed their problems
rather than just repeatedly replace the phone system. They
did not take on a quitter's attitude. They addressed the
solution starting with a most critical system component -
earth ground. One that was sufficient for Central FL.
Brian Running
(a lot)
But, Dubya Tom, I think you're missing the most important point: Earth
ground. Earth ground is what's really, really, really, really, really
important. Earth ground. It's important. The most important thing is
earth ground. And humans. And earth ground.
Michael A. Terrell
>
> w_tom wrote:
>
> (a lot)
>
> But, Dubya Tom, I think you're missing the most important point: Earth
> ground. Earth ground is what's really, really, really, really, really
> important. Earth ground. It's important. The most important thing is
> earth ground. And humans. And earth ground.
Tom is an idiot. I say that you can't install and forget grounding or
other protective devices and he says that I'm a quitter. The only thing
that has quit are his last few brain cells.
Telamon
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Brian Running wrote:
> >
> > w_tom wrote:
> >
> > (a lot)
> >
> > But, Dubya Tom, I think you're missing the most important point: Earth
> > ground. Earth ground is what's really, really, really, really, really
> > important. Earth ground. It's important. The most important thing is
> > earth ground. And humans. And earth ground.
>
>
> Tom is an idiot. I say that you can't install and forget grounding or
> other protective devices and he says that I'm a quitter. The only thing
> that has quit are his last few brain cells.
Some people are not mentally grounded. They can be brought to zero
potential by an addition to the kill file. Really!
--
Telamon
Ventura, California
David
<too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In a recent conversation with fellow SWLers, we noted that each of us
>used a different (or nonexistent) solution to lightning protection.
>
>You can also see this attitude in antenna discussions...very little
>discussion on proper grounding and lightning disappation.
>
>So the question... what do YOU use for lightning protection to prevent
>you and your radios from being turned into melted blobs of charred
>tissue and plastic? Examples of proven designs with their accompanying
>stories would be of particular interest.
>
>TMT
>
Disconnect everything from the outside world. Everything else can
fail, like a condom.
BTW: Haven't seen anything resembling lightning here for several
years.
34, -118
RHF
" Everything else can fail, like a condom. "
DaviD - So does that make you "Troll-Jan-Man" ?
.
just for the fun of it ~ RHF
. . . . .
Michael A. Terrell
>
I picked up a truckload of plywood for my dad and step mom the other
day. My dad is cutting them to size and painting them to withstand the
hard, blown rain and ground water if we get hit again. I can't afford
any plywood this year, so I just have to take my chances. I had enough
pieces of scrap plywood to do the west side of my house, but it seems to
have disappeared into my dad's woodworking projects over the last four
years that we didn't have any hurricane worries.