R75 and SW77 comparison
atg
time, I hadn't had the chance to put the 2 side by side, always using the
SW77 outdoors with a 10m random wire and the R75 mainly indoors (next to my
PC) on a "permanent" 10m wire with co-ax lead and proper earthing and
insulators.
My main listening is broadcast. Less than 5% of the time, I listen to CW,
ship to shore or ham SSB R/T and had been planning to get into RTTY, fax,
SSTV, etc. On face value, the right receiver for me was the R75, as the SW77
is not suitable even for decent SSB, never mind the rest.
My recent history of receiver ownership - I started last year with a PCR1000
but after a few visits to this newsgroup, I wanted a R75 which I got. Then I
thought the PCR performed as well as the R75 at 60% of the cost so I got rid
of the R75. Then I bought the SW77 and was quite pleased, if not delighted
with the performance.
But still, I had this nagging that the R75 was the "best value for money"
receiver, mainly fueled by this newsgroup. So I bought another R75. Right
now, I have the R75/DSP, PCR1000/DSP and SW77.
Anyway, back to the comparison. This week-end I tried the SW77 and R75 side
by side for BC listening as follows -
The SW77 was on internal battery power (which has lasted me 35+ hours so
far) with 15m wire clipped to the whip and stretched across the yard to the
eaves of the house, supported by insulators on both ends. (The SW77 has an
external antenna connector, but I have never used it or the AN1 which came
with it) I used the standard Sony earplug headphones.
The R75 (DSP NR 3-4) was on a motorcycle battery to start with, but it
flattened it before I got the comparison going (My fault, I should have
charged it) So I ran an AC extension cable with the Icom AD55 PSU. I ran an
exact same antenna as on the SW77, but a few feet apart. I used a $15 pair
of headphones. Without antenna, I had no noise on the R75 so I assume the
PSU was not generating too much noise.
I had the SW77 earplugs in my ear with the R75 h/phones over my ears, so I
could hear both.
Results -
1. A station barely audible on the R75 S-AM due to interference from
adjacent stations and static (S7-9) was clear on the SW77 S-AM. The R75 S-AM
had no effect on the audio, while the SW77 synch had a marked effect. The
SW77 also allowed switching between LSB and USB synch helping eliminate
adjacent freq interference. The result was the same on any station in the
crowded 6-9MHz bands.
2. I tried lower down on the 3-6MHz where the band is less crowded, but
still with lots of static. The SW77 won again.
3. I moved to the quieter 12-15MHz bands and tried to copy the faintest
stations. The SW77 received them just as well as the R75. Possibly the
signal might have been better on the R75 but it was lost thereafter as the
SW77 gave the best audio.
4. Also on the 15MHz band, I chose a station with severe, fast fading. The
SW77 with synch eliminated fading completely making it pleasant listening.
The R75 S-AM made no difference and listening was irritating.
Conclusion:
For BC listening the SW77 is a clear winner. The synch on the SW77 works to
eliminate a lot of interference and fading with a pleasant audio.
IMO, the R75 DSP takes away too much of the target audio with its cleaning.
While it might make the audio less irritating, it doesn't make the station
more audible.
Sensitivity on the SW77, as far as I can tell, was as good as the R75.
The portability/battery power make the SW77 more versatile as well.
The R75 looks nicer.
Will I keep the R75? I doubt it. If I plan on tackling RTTY, Fax, etc., I
will be tied to my PC, so I may as well use the PCR which has coverage to
1.3GHz and better LF sensitivity.
But it is difficult to get out of a CULT! So maybe I will keep the R75 just
to say I have one and "stay in with the crowd".
Todd
All the way from a sunny and warm Cape Town, South Africa.
DeWayne
"atg" <tele...@nettaxi.com> wrote in message
news:3c8c9...@news1.mweb.co.za...
Dog gone you Todd! Just when I thought I wanted an R75... Now you can get
one for nearly the price of an SW77.
DeWayne KE9K
RolloŽ
>
>A while back someone asked how I would compare these 2 receivers. At the
>time, I hadn't had the chance to put the 2 side by side, always using the
>SW77 outdoors with a 10m random wire and the R75 mainly indoors (next to my
>PC) on a "permanent" 10m wire with co-ax lead and proper earthing and
>insulators.
>
>My main listening is broadcast. Less than 5% of the time, I listen to CW,
>ship to shore or ham SSB R/T and had been planning to get into RTTY, fax,
>SSTV, etc.
I'm glad you posted this. It points out the silliness of the "best" radio
arguments that go on here day after day. There's no such thing as "best"
radio--only the "right" radio. And "right" changes from listener to listener.
Different rigs do different things well. Some rigs do a few things REALLY well,
and are mediocre at other things. Some rigs do a lot of things acceptably well,
but are outstanding at nothing.
You listen to broadcast 95% of the time. I don't. I discounted the Passport
and RNL reviews because they were aimed primarily at broadcast listeners. You
might have given them greater heed. In both reviews, the R75 was only a 4-4.5
star radio for the broadcast listener. I'm quite happy with it for what I
listen to, but you listen to different stuff.
Moreover, you did a very useful test and found that a $450 radio performs better
than a $550 radio for your own listening purposes. That's useful information.
For you, the Sony is the "right" radio. There would be no
point in sitting around arguing, like some do, about what is the "best" radio.
You found one that does what you want it to do.
atg
> Dog gone you Todd! Just when I thought I wanted an R75... Now you can get
> one for nearly the price of an SW77.
> DeWayne KE9K
>
>
You'll need the R75 to "hang with the in-crowd", but you should buy another
receiver for AM BC listening.
Maybe that's what all the Drake owners are talking about? In order to meet
the R8B sort of performance and features, you need the R75 for ute and ham
listening and another RX for AM. That will make up around $1k.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The only way is to get out there
and listen to a few receivers in a side by side test in a store.
Don't be pressured by the R75 cult. They've made their quota for the month
Todd
atg
And will probably have to keep both if I want to listen to both AM BC and
UTE's and be happy.
AAAAAAAAAAAAArrgghhh!
Todd
RolloŽ <Rollo_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:a6iid...@drn.newsguy.com...
MWBRYANT
I have both, also. My assessment is different. While they will pick up the same
signals when attached to similar antennas, the R75 clearly outperforms the SW77
in digging out weak DX when in ECSS-mode. The SW-77 might be equal if it had
twin-PBT. It doesn't, and that feature is indispensable in digging out
comprehensible audio from weak signals, like AIR in English on 11750 in the
late afternoons.
Other reasons why I feel the R75 is better than the SW77:
1. Bigger display.
2. Wider frequency coverage.
3. Adjustable preamps
4. Less likelihood of overloading.
5. Adjustable RF gain.
6. FM reception
7. Much finer frequency resolution.
8. DSP
9. Auto Notch filter.
10. Adjustable AGC.
With that many advantages, the R75 is clearly worth more than the $50 more it
costs over the SW-77.
I agree that no radio is really better than any other. Every person has
preferences that mold their own desires.
Bryant
Mark Saarinen
> point in sitting around arguing, like some do, about what is the "best"
radio.
> You found one that does what you want it to do.
>
Well said, RolloŽ! I stayed out of the endless R8B vs. R75 exchange, but I
can't resist saying that for me the R8B has been the "right" radio. I love
how the sync detector improves AM listening and blocks adjacent
interference. I enjoy its full audio, which I run through an equalizer and
good external speakers to make it even better. I like the wide swath of the
passband offset, and it doesn't matter to me if the RDI white paper liked
the narrower R7's better. I find its PLL stable and accurate enough. Its
sensitivity is enough for me. Birdies and spurious signals are not a
problem. I do listen to a lot of amateur radio and like its SSB filters and
find its performance in this mode excellent for my purposes. I don't mind
the size. I am happy with the user interface and don't find the buttons or
the tuning knob and thickness of the case to be a big deal.
Would I prefer many of the features found on other radios? Yes! But it's
just too simplistic to add them all up in this vs. that fashion to try to
determine king of the hill. The lists are useful for one contemplating the
choice, but their interpretation cannot be standardized because, as you say,
we all weigh these factor differently (all of the above points I made have
been turned into negatives or discounted by others). We all want to feel
like we made the right decision, and hopefully most of us did, but putting
down someone else's radio when you haven't even heard it next to yours
doesn't make your own decision any more "right" than it was to begin with,
and it certainly doesn't make it "right" for someone else. While I enjoy
these free-for-alls, I don't think they always help someone make a proper
buying decision. Thankfully Phil and others have helped keep the debate fun
:)
Mark
DeWayne
>
> > Dog gone you Todd! Just when I thought I wanted an R75... Now you can
get
> > one for nearly the price of an SW77.
> > DeWayne KE9K
> >
> >
> DeWayne,
>
> You'll need the R75 to "hang with the in-crowd", but you should buy
another
> receiver for AM BC listening.
>
> Maybe that's what all the Drake owners are talking about? In order to meet
> the R8B sort of performance and features, you need the R75 for ute and ham
> listening and another RX for AM. That will make up around $1k.
I have owned the Drake R8/A/B, SW8, and SW2. I guess I'm spoiled because I
thought they all were excellent for both ham and AM except the SW8, simply
because it didn't have RF gain. I now have the SW2 only and really enjoy it!
It is great for ham and AM. The audio is superb for both even using the
built in speaker. I guess the $500 price tag for the R75 has been very
tempting. Thank you for your opinion.
DeWayne KE9K
phil
> My main listening is broadcast.
as you say this makes up 95% of your listening... did you ever consider the
Satellit 800? it is portable (sorta :p) and good for SWLing. why did you
purchase an R-75 for a second time after having it and not liking it? i have
a qustion for you: if i can maybe help you get more from your R-75 will you
take the advice? if so read on... and maybe you can take the advice and run
your test over?
> 1. A station barely audible on the R75 S-AM due to interference from
> adjacent stations and static (S7-9) was clear on the SW77 S-AM. The R75
S-AM
> had no effect on the audio
first, we all know the S-AM does not work on the R-75... so don't keep using
it ;). in this situation what you should do is switch to ECSS... the
adjacent channel interference will be gone on one sideband (LSB or USB). set
both PBT to 12 o'clock! next, offset the frequency to alter the tone to your
liking... press and hold TS to be able to tune down to the 1 Hz... this
offset should be about in the range of +/- 20 Hz. next, with the AGC on and
RF at 12 o'clock... see if the signal is better with the pre-amp 2, pre-amp
1, off, or the attenuator. what you want is the least amount of boost
necessary. next, press and hold the NR (noise reduction button) and
adjust... please note there are actually 256 values so everytime the display
goes up '1' you are going through 16 values... so listen carefully.
lastly... for really tough signals /after/ the above... drop the RF gain to
zero... press and hold AGC 2 seconds to turn it off and adjust it manually,
raising it until the s-meter drops to between 9 and 20. if you like what you
dig up using this then all you need do is purchase the 3.3 kHz filter for
greater fidelity and use ECSS as your main listening venue.
Todd, all radios have quirks... it's really important to find them out. a
good way to do this is to tune a station and work on cleaning it up... start
with an easy station and move on from there... fool with every knob, read
some receiver theory, and have fun! the recently introduced TenTec RX-350
and R-75 are unique in their small tuning step size (1 Hz) and stability (1
ppm)... use this to your advantage!
> 3. I moved to the quieter 12-15MHz bands and tried to copy the faintest
> stations. The SW77 received them just as well as the R75.
the sensitivity of the R-75 is excellent: better than the NRD-545, R8B,
7030+, RX-350... and guess what? the SW77 has exactly the same specs!
sensitivity in SSB is much better than in AM mode and you must realize this
and use SSB if your wish is to dig out a faint signal. also realize that
this is where the two pre-amps come in... use them! btw, engaging pre-amp 2
on the R-75 makes it more (+10 dB) sensitive than even the SW77 (which is
quite good!).
> 4. Also on the 15MHz band, I chose a station with severe, fast fading. The
> SW77 with synch eliminated fading completely making it pleasant listening.
> The R75 S-AM made no difference and listening was irritating.
see above... why keep using the S-AM? you know it does not work!
> IMO, the R75 DSP takes away too much of the target audio with its
cleaning.
using what setting? you should use somewhere between 3 and 5... realize that
there are about 32 distinct setting between these two numbers, listen
closely as you turn the dial.
> Sensitivity on the SW77, as far as I can tell, was as good as the R75.
sensitivity on the SW77 is very good...
SSB sensitivity
SW77... 0.16 uV
R75.... 0.16 uV Note: this is with pre-amp '1' ON (turn it on when
comparing!)
Note: pre-amp '2' is available if you need more.
> But it is difficult to get out of a CULT! So maybe I will keep the R75
just
> to say I have one and "stay in with the crowd".
do not keep a radio on our account Todd... we will like you no matter what
radio you use. if you are strictly a program listener or do not want to fool
with much you may want to check out the Sat 800. if you are interesting in
dxing keep the R-75! if you are interesting in amateur or utility keep the
R-75! if you want to tune the big stations and want more fidelity... Sat
800.
lastly, to round out this testing... how about finding an amateur radio
operator and use both your SW77 and R-75? i once read the SW77 is about as
good as a portable gets on SSB... the R-75 is quite good, ICOM's main line
is amateur.
one other point i would like to make is that everyone knows that passport to
world band radio has not been exactly charitable in their review of the
R-75; however, even lawrence gave the R-75 4 1/4 stars stating, correctly,
that it excells for dxing. the SW77 is a nice portable... he gave it 3 3/4
stars.
i hope that what i wrote will help you get better use from your R-75 or at
least point you in the direction of something better for your listening
habits.
phil :)
Diverd4777
>
Todd:
Not saying your tests weren't scientific, or knocking the SW77 but maybe you
weren't sufficiently excersizing all the features of the R-75.
rejecting Ajacent station interference is one of the HIGH points of the R-75 ,
IMHO
Throw it into SSB mode & you can tune up / down & nail whatever frequency you
want;
Signal too faint? give it some Pre amp.
- BTW, for comparison, WHAT frequencies were you using, trying to tune in & at
what time ( U.T.C.)
Dan
M2
> the sensitivity of the R-75 is excellent: better than the NRD-545, R8B,
> 7030+, RX-350... and guess what? the SW77 has exactly the same specs!
The R75 is marginally more sensitive that the 7030 when both have
the preamp on (preamp 1 in the R75 case) and in SSB mode
according to the manufacturers published specs -- though, Icom
only gives one measurement for the whole 1.8MHz-28MHz (can we
believe it?. However, in AM mode, the 7030 easily surpasses the
R75 in sensitivity. This kind of puzzles me about the R75. It's
really sensitive in the SSB mode (kind of a dog in AM mode) BUT
it runs out of volume in the SSB mode but is loud as hell in the
AM mode. What gives?
--
M2
phil
> Icom only gives one measurement for the whole 1.8MHz-28MHz
> (can we believe it?
they also have a graph for sensitivity... i believe i have it on a page on
my site.
> it runs out of volume in the SSB mode but is loud as hell in the
> AM mode. What gives?
i don't get that either... this should be the next 'Rado' mod if we are so
graced... it's probably a damn resistor that needs changing.
phil :)
M2
> > it runs out of volume in the SSB mode but is loud as hell in the
> > AM mode. What gives?
>
> i don't get that either... this should be the next 'Rado' mod if we are so
> graced... it's probably a damn resistor that needs changing.
I looked on the R75 group and there is a Rado mod for this. It
seems that the AM and S-AM modes are electronically overcharged
(and cause clipping too). So Rado's solution is to add resistors
to bring down the volume of AM and S-AM (to the same level as the
volume in SSB). I was hoping to increase the SSB volume. Oh
well.
--
M2
starman
The gain of my SW8 is fine with an external antenna. It's the whip that
could use a pre-amp. What vintage was your SW8? Those made since 96'
have better whip sensitivity but it still needs a boost. Adding a few
feet of wire to the whip makes a big improvement.
*****
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http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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starman
Phil,
You really need to show more self control when it comes to statements
like the one below. I can't speak with experience for the sensitivity of
all the receivers you mentioned but the published spec' on the R8B is
'less than 0.25-uv'. I think this can fairly be interpreted to mean it's
the worst case spec' for sensitivity. It may well be 0.16 or better at
certain frequency ranges. You seem to pick and choose those spec's that
fit your agenda. Yes, you do have one. :-)
*****
DeWayne
"starman" <sta...@tech.net> wrote in message
news:3C8EE83C...@tech.net...
> 3/13/02
>
> The gain of my SW8 is fine with an external antenna. It's the whip that
> could use a pre-amp. What vintage was your SW8? Those made since 96'
> have better whip sensitivity but it still needs a boost. Adding a few
> feet of wire to the whip makes a big improvement.
> *****
My SW8 was one of the last one's made. Honestly I like my SW2 much better
even though I use only a random wire inside. The audio is better also. I
love the remote. The SW8 was the worst of my Drakes overall IMO. I thought
the R8/A/B and SW2 all had excellent AM and SSB audio.
DeWayne KE9K
phil
> like the one below. I can't speak with experience for the sensitivity of
> all the receivers you mentioned but the published spec' on the R8B is
> 'less than 0.25-uv'.
um, starman, this was not some evil plot. i got the spec off a chart i made
up for my website. i will be sure to add the less than sign to it.
> You seem to pick and choose those spec's that fit your agenda.
what agenda? i posted this to help Todd get more out of his R-75. an agenda
would be to jump in and try to fix drake's specs. what the hell does < 0.25
uV mean anyway? i guess ICOM should write < 0.17 uV so we can all guess too?
c'mon.
btw, if you have any specs for the R8B that reflect why it is superior to
all other receivers please post them.
phil :)
starman
'Less than' means that all receivers (production units) will at least
perform to that spec' but it implies that some may (most likely will) be
better. As I said, it's a worst case concept. It's used throughout the
electronics industry, including audio equipment spec's like THD <0.20%
for 'total harmonic distortion'. In the interest of fairness to your
website readers, I suggest you do more research on receiver spec's and
perhaps electronics in general.
Regarding an agenda, can you honestly say that you would have added the
'<' sign if someone had not brought it to your attention? You must have
wondered what 'less than' meant but I guess the '0.25' was all you
needed to see because it was a bigger number than '0.16'. Of course it's
not an 'evil plot', but it makes me wonder if there is at least a
tendency on your part to be more or less rigorous with receiver spec's
and performance, depending on whether they *appear* to support your
personal view of a certain receiver. Only you can answer that question,
which depends on how well you know your self.
You know I make no claim that the R8B is "superior to all other
receivers" so I guess you were just being sarcastic.
BTW- I've been spending way too much time on this group with the 'best
receiver' debate so I'll refrain from getting involved with any more
such discussions for a while. I still look forward to responding to
other less contentious topics like 'which receiver should I buy'. :-))
*****
phil
> 'Less than' means that all receivers (production units) will at least
> perform to that spec' but it implies that some may (most likely will) be
> better.
gee, i took a year of calculus i think i know what less than means... it
means that drake could not guarantee anything better on its production run.
if it makes you feel better to think your 'special' drake rolled off the
line with 0.15 uV sensitivity then great. i guess real elves delivered it
too. :p
> In the interest of fairness to your
> website readers, I suggest you do more research on receiver spec's and
> perhaps electronics in general.
it would be unrealistic to think my website has no errors: it's over 100
pages. i may get someone to check it, and all errors reported to me will be
changed. my website is not propaganda: half is shortwave, half is R-75
technical information.
> Regarding an agenda, can you honestly say that you would have added the
> '<' sign if someone had not brought it to your attention?
the '<' sign is a copout on drake's part; they should have plotted a graph
like ICOM, maybe one is out there somewhere. regarding agendas... who turned
a discussion to help Todd into an R-75 versus R8B thread? congratulations,
next time start a thread like me :p
> You must have wondered what 'less than' meant but I guess the '0.25' was
> all you needed to see because it was a bigger number than '0.16'.
gee, can you tell me what the less than means oh great all knowing one?
> Of course it's
> not an 'evil plot', but it makes me wonder if there is at least a
> tendency on your part to be more or less rigorous with receiver spec's
> and performance,
how about this starman, you post these specs for the R-75 and R8B regarding:
PLL stability, tuning steps, sensitivity, selectivity, and /any/ other spec
you wish to compare.
> depending on whether they *appear* to support your personal view of
> a certain receiver.
what personal view? i can admit my receiver has a BROKEN sync detector and
you cannot admit that yours is less sensitive, even if it is possibly
irrelevant.
> Only you can answer that question, which depends on how well you know your
self.
psycho-babble?
> You know I make no claim that the R8B is "superior to all other
> receivers" so I guess you were just being sarcastic.
yeah but which receiver is it not better then? surely not the lowly R-75,
7030+, 545, 800, FRoG, palstar, RX-350, or RX-340. maybe the truth of the
matter is that receivers have advanced sufficiently that all the viable
tabletops do well. instead we are left to bicker over whose set hears the
250,000 watt international broadcast with a more 'mellow sound'.
phil :)