Using Roofing EPDM for liner
Shannon Moyes Clark
I have heard many mixed comments about EPDM, Roofing EPDM, and
Permalon. My question is . . . those of you who used EPDM from a
roofing company did you have any problems with your fish? One roofing
contractor here said he sold some for a pond and the owner lost some
fish. What type of roofing EPDM did you use(non fire retardent?)? Did
you clean it in some manner before you used it? Did you wait to put
fish in?? How long did you wait??
Thanks,
Shannon
(Do not repond directly to this address
use dnol...@vernoinet.cspamom without the "no" and "spam")
--
Shannon Moyes Clark
Software Engineer
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - -
All of that legal stuff about not being an HP employee and the opinions
expressed here being mine and not those of HP nor of Softworks Int.
Cheryl E Netter
: So perhaps someone can clarify this for me. . . . . . .
: I have heard many mixed comments about EPDM, Roofing EPDM, and
: Permalon. My question is . . . those of you who used EPDM from a
: roofing company did you have any problems with your fish? One roofing
: contractor here said he sold some for a pond and the owner lost some
: fish. What type of roofing EPDM did you use(non fire retardent?)? Did
: you clean it in some manner before you used it? Did you wait to put
: fish in?? How long did you wait??
I purchased Firestone 60 mil EPDM roofing liner from a local
roofing supply place and washed it off with the hose before
installing it. I don't remember anything abour fire
retardant in it. All 9 of my fish survived the winter and
now there are little ones in there as well.
After installing the pond, I waited a couple of weeks before
adding fish.
cheryl
USDA zone 4
Golden, Co.
http://www.h2net.net/p/cnetter/
Jeannie
in after a week. No fish loss due to liner......so far so good after almost
5 months.
Cheryl E Netter <net...@stortek.com> wrote in message
news:7oss5c$pe5$1...@news.stortek.com...
AganadAndy
it worth your while to go to them. Liner should say EPDM right on it. It will
be covered by a light film of powder, I assume talc, I washed it off with
water and just a slight bit if soap. I really flooded the thing and scrubbed
it with a push broom. After I installed the liner, I filled it partially with
water, wiping down the sides again with a cloth, then draining/vacuuming the
dirty water out.
I waited a few days before I put a couple of koi in, mainly to let the water
age a bit and let the chemicals get to all the chlorine/chloramines, and not
because of fears of toxicity from the liner.
I still have some of the original fish from last year. Some died for reasons
other than the liner. I have koi fry, too.
Go for it and bargain with the roofer for a good price. Sometimes they have
some stuff in odd widths or short rolls that they just want to get rid of.
Cindy McCord
refuse to use it in my installation for customers simply because I
cannot warranty it the way I can the EPDM sold for ponds. You mentioned
the rinsing and scrubbing process and this is ABSOLUTELY necessary - the
roofing EPDM is often coated or impregnated with an algae inhibitor
which is extremely toxic to fish and aquatic plants.
Ideally, plants go into a new pond after dechlorinating the water, fish
and scavengers go into the pond 2-3 weeks later. This info comes from a
very reputable fish hatchery that I've done business with for many
years.
I've seen do-it-yourselfers use everything from kiddie pools to old
swimming pool liners for their ponds - in many cases this works out just
fine and in some cases time and money will be spent later on to do it
the right way!! When your budget permits, I vote for doing in the right
way the first time.
Cindy
Jeannie
even rinsing it, and have had NO problems. I know of 6 other ppl in my area
that have done the same, without a problem. The only difference in the
liner is the stamp on the back...."Pond Guard"
Why pay .50 cents more/sq.ft. just for the stamp ?????
Cindy McCord <cmc...@one.net> wrote in message
news:37B55008...@one.net...
Warren May
trade) bears the EXACT same brand-name markings and trademarks as the "pond
liner" being sold at outrageous prices locally. I have received no
complaints from the fish, either.
Warren.
--
Reply address obviously disguised to reduce spam at ibm.net
Jeannie <jtr...@gtn.net> wrote in message
news:37b57...@207.176.194.240...
Warren May
commercial roofing membranes, ranging from single layer EPDM (like we're
using in our ponds) to more complex versions including fire retardant and
multi-layer structurally reinforced versions, each with supporting MSDS info
and Technical Specifications data. Their "Pond Gard" liner page merely
states "PondGard is based on EPDM synthetic rubber, a highly flexible stable
material. PondGard is specially formulated to be safe for exposure to fish
and plant life in decorative ponds.", but yet offers no supporting
information regarding toxicity or lack thereof... only a scanned brochure
offering testamonials about how superior the product is.
Hmmmmm.....
Cindy McCord
Then you and your friends who've used the Firestone roofing liner have
been lucky. I, on the other hand, have met ponders in the last 4 years
who used the roofing liner and had horrible fish deaths from not rinsing
the liner. I guess it's possible that the deaths were due to other
things, but the common denominator has been the roofing liner.
Believe me, if I was confident that there was absolutely no difference
in the two types of EPDM 45 mil liner, I'd use it - sure would increase
my profits!!
Thanks,
Cindy
Cindy McCord
roofing and that labeled for ponds is all the same - I will look into
this.
Cindy
Bonnie Espenshade
I have a friend who purchase roofing liner (not knowing the difference), she
filled the pond and immediately put in twenty fish. All the fish died and
she then blamed the liner. I think you must hear the entire story before
you make any decisions. I did not use roofing liner, but that was my
choice.
--
Bonnie
NJ
http://www.users.fast.net/~maebe/index.htm
Jeannie
straight answer from Firestone after several attempts. You would think that
the roofing type would be more expensive if they had an additional
manufacturing step. ie. adding toxins.
My conclusion to this debate is that they are selling the EXACT same product
under 2 diff. names, until they provide an explanation.
Cindy McCord <cmc...@one.net> wrote in message
news:37B5DFC9...@one.net...
KenCo
>
> I guess I don't understand the diff. in the 2 liners since I cannot get a
> straight answer from Firestone after several attempts. You would think that
> the roofing type would be more expensive if they had an additional
> manufacturing step. ie. adding toxins.
> My conclusion to this debate is that they are selling the EXACT same product
> under 2 diff. names, until they provide an explanation.
>
very simple explanation,
Pond Liner is made under sanitary conds. and handled as such
all the way to the consumer.
Roofing can have anything and everything spilled on it
and nobody cares,its for a roof.
if you must use roofing then wash it very well 1st.
or get Permalon which is even drinking water safe :)
.37 sq ft.
--
Ken Arnold, ICQ # 1028648
KenCo Fish & Supplies Pond and Aquarium fish,
Shipping plants/fish etc. a specialty
Imported & domestic Koi,Goldfish,Orandas,
Tropicals,exotics, Piranhas etc.
http://www.kencofish.com mailto:ke...@kencofish.com
Jeannie
have certainly gone for that as it's even .10 cents cheaper than the roofing
stuff.
Where would one find Permalon in Southwestern Ont. Ken, any ideas ?
KenCo <ke...@kencofish.com> wrote in message
news:37B6DD...@kencofish.com...
jan jordan
Or you can clarify it for yourself:
Take two equal containers with equal filtration, equal fish load. Let them
run for a month, if all are healthy put a piece of the roofing liner of
your choice in one container. The other is the control. After several weeks
if all fish are alive, no problem. If the fish die in the liner container
and are happy in the control you might not what to use that type of roofing
liner. OTOH, if the liner fish live and the control dies............... ;o)
~ jan
Michael Gale
> Cheryl E Netter <net...@stortek.com> wrote in message
> news:7oss5c$pe5$1...@news.stortek.com...
> > Shannon Moyes Clark (shannon_m...@nonhp-am.exch.hp.com) wrote:
> > : So perhaps someone can clarify this for me. . . . . . .
> >
> > : I have heard many mixed comments about EPDM, Roofing EPDM, and
> > : Permalon. My question is . . . those of you who used EPDM from a
> > : roofing company did you have any problems with your fish? One roofing
> > : contractor here said he sold some for a pond and the owner lost some
> > : fish. What type of roofing EPDM did you use(non fire retardent?)? Did
> > : you clean it in some manner before you used it? Did you wait to put
> > : fish in?? How long did you wait??
> >
> >
I currently have over 8,000 imp gallons (10,000 U.S. gals.) of ponds, all built
using 45mm EPDM membrane. The only preparation I made prior to filling of the
pond was to rinse the liner of any dust, dirt or other debris. All ponds were
allowed to stand 7 to 10 days prior to introduction of koi, with filters
running. Filter media was changed after 48 hours. I had zero fish mortality
that I attribute to the liner.
Mike Gale
Zone 5
Cindy McCord
case of your friend, or anyone for that matter, who placed fish
immediately into a new pond - I would predict fish deaths! Even
following complete treatment of the new pond water with tap water
conditioner to remove chlorine, chloramines, etc., I *always* advise new
pond customers to wait 2-4 wks. before adding fish to the pond. Plants,
on the other hand, I typically stock right away with no problems.
Cindy McCord
KenCo
>
> Now had I heard about Permalon before finding the roofing liner, I would
> have certainly gone for that as it's even .10 cents cheaper than the roofing
> stuff.
> Where would one find Permalon in Southwestern Ont. Ken, any ideas ?
>
customs may be costly but you can get it from me.
I dont know if theres a dist. in Can.
I have the whole east coast dist. up to Can. :)
Jeannie
that would put the price up around the cost of *Pond* safe EPDM.
I'll have to scout around for a Canadian supplier
KenCo <ke...@kencofish.com> wrote in message
news:37BA39...@kencofish.com...
KenCo
>
> Well, it's not only customs......the exchange rate is real bad right now,
> that would put the price up around the cost of *Pond* safe EPDM.
> I'll have to scout around for a Canadian supplier
>
I called them today,no dist. in Can yet :(
it would have to be through a US dist. like myself
or find someone in the US to accept it and drive accross
and declare it at the border.
cheaper all around that way.
> > > Now had I heard about Permalon before finding the roofing liner, I would
> > > have certainly gone for that as it's even .10 cents cheaper than the
> roofing
> > > stuff.
> > > Where would one find Permalon in Southwestern Ont. Ken, any ideas ?
--
Warren May
manufacturing and composition" between their roofing membrane EPDM and their
Pond-Gard EPDM... The response is as follows:
August 17, 1999
Dear Firestone PondGard Customer:
The tests and values reported for PondGard and our standard RubberGard* EPDM
roofing membrane or MultiLiner* geomembrane are similar but not exactly the
same. The reason for this is that PondGard is manufactured and tested for
"fish friendliness" while our standard roofing membrane and geomembrane are
not. The "fish friendliness test" (FBP-1094) consists of eight-day old brine
shrimp and Shubunkin goldfish (KOI) exposed to PondGard membrane for one and
two weeks respectively. PondGard is also NSF 61 certified by the National
Sanitation Foundation (NSF) for potable water containment attesting to the
non-toxic nature of this product. All PondGard membrane manufacturing takes
place at our Kingstree, SC manufacturing facility to insure its "fish
friendliness."
Roofing membrane is not certified "fish friendly" because a variety of
manufacturing processes driven by their current market pricing are often
employed that could render it unacceptable for use with susceptible fish
such as KOI and certain plant species. Firestone Building Products has
undertaken testing of our standard roofing membrane and determined that
neither the membrane nor runoff from our roofing membrane pose any
identifiable health hazard to human beings or the environment when used as
roofing.
PondGard's ease of installation and lasting durability is not possible with
other common lining materials. PondGard's QuickSeam tape system does not
require expensive heat welding equipment to make consistent, permanent
seams. PondGard's unique rubber polymer formulation remains stable thus
giving the owner added insurance against lining failure.
Important features of Firestone PondGard are:
* A 20 year manufacturers warranty from Firestone Building Products
* Resistance to environmental considerations such as ultraviolet
radiation and ozone
* May be adhered to concrete and other substrates
* Remains stabile while in contact with soil or water
* Permanent QuickSeam taped seams
* 45 Mils (1.1mm) thickness
* Puncture resistance
* Custom roll sizes up to 50' by 200'
* Environmental formulation safe for potable water, exposure to fish
and plant life
* Ease of field repairs that exceeds that of its competitive products
* Flexible in temperatures of -40* F to 175* F
Please make no mistake on these issues; Firestone Building Products does not
recommend or condone the use of roofing membrane for water gardening with
plants and fish within the containment. Firestone authorized roofing
distributors are specifically directed not to distribute roofing membrane
for non-roofing applications.
PondGard is our only membrane to be used in the retail and water-gardening
market and in such applications.
Call us for further information regarding PondGard - the "fish friendly"
liner with over 100 years of Firestone rubber technology.
Sincerely
<name and e-mail address snipped>
So basically it seems they've been doing what us ponders have been doing for
years now... put the fish in a bucket with a sample of the product. If it
lives, its pond liner and if it dies, its roofing membrane. <g>.
Warren May <jw...@obvious.net> wrote in message
news:37b5...@news3.us.ibm.net...
> Interestingly enough, Firestones own website shows 5 types of EPDM
> commercial roofing membranes, ranging from single layer EPDM (like we're
> using in our ponds) to more complex versions including fire retardant and
> multi-layer structurally reinforced versions, each with supporting MSDS
info
> and Technical Specifications data. Their "Pond Gard" liner page merely
> states "PondGard is based on EPDM synthetic rubber, a highly flexible
stable
> material. PondGard is specially formulated to be safe for exposure to fish
> and plant life in decorative ponds.", but yet offers no supporting
> information regarding toxicity or lack thereof... only a scanned brochure
> offering testamonials about how superior the product is.
>
> Hmmmmm.....
> Warren.
> --
> Reply address obviously disguised to reduce spam at ibm.net
>
> Jeannie <jtr...@gtn.net> wrote in message
> news:37b57...@207.176.194.240...
> > I disagree with this. I've used Firestone roofing liner (45 ml) without
> > even rinsing it, and have had NO problems. I know of 6 other ppl in my
> area
> > that have done the same, without a problem. The only difference in the
> > liner is the stamp on the back...."Pond Guard"
> > Why pay .50 cents more/sq.ft. just for the stamp ?????
> >
> > Cindy McCord <cmc...@one.net> wrote in message
Jeannie
customers across from Detroit, we'll be at the Tim Hortons in Windsor :)
hehe
KenCo <ke...@kencofish.com> wrote in message
news:37BB18...@kencofish.com...
Jeannie
Warren May <jw...@obvious.net> wrote in message
news:37bb...@news3.us.ibm.net...
Warren May
Warren.
--
Reply address obviously disguised to reduce spam at ibm.net
Jeannie <jtr...@gtn.net> wrote in message
news:37bbf...@207.176.194.240...
> My fish have a bigger <G> :)
>
> Warren May <jw...@obvious.net> wrote in message
> news:37bb...@news3.us.ibm.net...
jan jordan
>So basically it seems they've been doing what us ponders have been doing for
>years now... put the fish in a bucket with a sample of the product. If it
>lives, its pond liner and if it dies, its roofing membrane. <g>.
>
Sounds so, what the ponder is paying for is their time in testing and the
back up of their fleet of lawyers. ;o) ~ jan
Shawn Turner
>years now... put the fish in a bucket with a sample of the product. If it
>lives, its pond liner and if it dies, its roofing membrane. <g>.
I'd phrase that a little bit differently.
They have a manufacturing process and ingredients
list that they are pretty sure will give a fish-safe pond
liner. They use these to make pond liner, and test to make
sure that it _is_ fish safe.
They make the roofing materiel from whatever is most
cost effective. Sometimes, this is the same as the fish-
safe stuff, sometimes isn't. They don't do tests that pond
makers care about.
Sometimes the roofing stuff is different from what they
are pretty sure is fish safe and _is_ fish safe. Other times,
well, caveat emptor.
Shawn T
If I didn't answer and should have I probly didn't see it
--Especially this week. Evil darn server.
Spam blocker: -Debounce- my addy ain't a barnyard.
Warren May
machine as Pond-Gard, but unless one of us sneaks into their production
facility we may never know. I wouldn't doubt, however, that the Pond-Gard
stuff is more carefully handled with regard to cleanliness and
contamination.
Warren
--
Reply address obviously disguised to reduce spam at ibm.net
Shawn Turner <STurneratN...@MooMeowemail.msn.com> wrote in message
news:OX0wca26#GA.303@cpmsnbbsa05...
> >So basically it seems they've been doing what us ponders have been doing
for
> >years now... put the fish in a bucket with a sample of the product. If it
> >lives, its pond liner and if it dies, its roofing membrane. <g>.
>
DJsEros
>machine as Pond-Gard, but unless one of us sneaks into their production
>facility we may never know.
I would tend to agree. Just consider the costs that are involved. You really
think they are going to set up diferent production areas for the two different
lines? Or, would it be more reasonable to assume they are just marketing and
marking it different?
Ever bought asprin..... most all made in the same plant...just marketed under
different names.
Dave
B.A. D'Angelo
>
> I'd be willing to wager that Firestone single-ply EPDM comes off the same
> machine as Pond-Gard, but unless one of us sneaks into their production
> stuff is more carefully handled with regard to cleanliness and
> contamination.
>
> Warren
> news:OX0wca26#GA.303@cpmsnbbsa05...
> for
> > >years now... put the fish in a bucket with a sample of the product. If it
> > >lives, its pond liner and if it dies, its roofing membrane. <g>.
> >
> > They have a manufacturing process and ingredients
> > list that they are pretty sure will give a fish-safe pond
> > liner. They use these to make pond liner, and test to make
> > sure that it _is_ fish safe.
> > They make the roofing materiel from whatever is most
> > cost effective. Sometimes, this is the same as the fish-
> > safe stuff, sometimes isn't. They don't do tests that pond
> > makers care about.
> > Sometimes the roofing stuff is different from what they
> > are pretty sure is fish safe and _is_ fish safe. Other times,
> > well, caveat emptor.
> >
> > Shawn T
> > If I didn't answer and should have I probly didn't see it
> > --Especially this week. Evil darn server.
> > Spam blocker: -Debounce- my addy ain't a barnyard.
> >
> >
I know what you're saying about safeguards with regard to how they
handle the liner, but doesn't it strike anyone as strange that either
the manufacturer or the ponder would be so concerned about cleanliness
when it's going to end up in a big hole in the ground and have algae
growing all over it and wildlife eating and eliminating in it?
It just seems like...hmmmm...can't find the name for it, but you know,
like curing/healing someone just before they're sent to the electric
chair. Poor analogy, but you get what I mean. There's always talk
about thoroughly cleaning/rinsing the liner when installing anyway, so
wouldn't the thing we need to be most concerned about is the content of
the liner (algaecides, herbicides, etc), as opposed to worrying about it
getting a bit dusty?
Warren May
in the back of some tractor-trailer and being hauled all over the country
under god-knows-what conditions. Anyone ever found a puncture on a brand new
liner?
Warren
--
Reply address obviously disguised to reduce spam at ibm.net
<snip>
Bonnie Espenshade
got it for a piece for a bog area - it worked great.
--
Bonnie
NJ
http://www.users.fast.net/~maebe/index.htm
Warren May wrote:
> Never mind the dust... how about those 20ft wide rolls of EPDM being stacked
> in the back of some tractor-trailer and being hauled all over the country
> under god-knows-what conditions. Anyone ever found a puncture on a brand new
> liner?
>
> Warren
> --
> Reply address obviously disguised to reduce spam at ibm.net
>
bill
<shannon_m...@nonhp-am.exch.hp.com> wrote:
>So perhaps someone can clarify this for me. . . . . . .
>
>I have heard many mixed comments about EPDM, Roofing EPDM, and
>Permalon. My question is . . . those of you who used EPDM from a
>roofing company did you have any problems with your fish? One roofing
>contractor here said he sold some for a pond and the owner lost some
>fish. What type of roofing EPDM did you use(non fire retardent?)? Did
>you clean it in some manner before you used it? Did you wait to put
>fish in?? How long did you wait??
>
>Thanks,
>
>Shannon
>(Do not repond directly to this address
> use dnol...@vernoinet.cspamom without the "no" and "spam")
Well, here is my 2 cents worth.Went to a local Pond Supplier to buy a
Liner, EPDM . He told me the same story that I have heard over nad
over again about the "FISH SAFE" liners he sells." Do not use the
roofing rubber" he said,will surely kill your fish and maybe your
plants. His "FISH SAFE" liner sells for $1.20 per sq ft. Went to the
roofing supplier in the same town...he had Firestone EPDM for .28
cents per square foot. Told him what the pond supplier said and his
reply was" Well.no wonder he wants to sell it to you,he buys from me
for .26 cents per square foot.
DJsEros
>for .26 cents per square foot.
Somehow, that is exactly what I expected. Nothing wrong with makng a buck.
But, out and out lying about what you are selling is another thing.
Since this string of posts started NOT ONE person has posted a case from ACTUAL
first hand experience sighting any problem with roofing EPDM.
I think I contact the local roofer. I need a new roof on my three car garage
anyway.
Dave
William Toto
customers tell me they think it killed their fish and plants.The bottom
line is how much you want to spend. If your going to put in a 4,000 $
pond I would not skimp on the liner and take a chance.A liner is a real
pain to have to pull up,and replace.If you plan on putting expensive
fish in the pond then it's not worth the 100 $ you would save.And 1.20 a
square Ft. is high ,but I guess location controls that. In Virginia I
get .71 cents a sq. ft. In the end I don't think their is any solid
answer. It's all up to how you feel about it. I have also had customers
use roofing material and not have a problem. So it can go either way.
Sean Barry
:>So perhaps someone can clarify this for me. . . . . . .
:>
:>I have heard many mixed comments about EPDM, Roofing EPDM, and
:>Permalon. My question is . . . those of you who used EPDM from a
:>roofing company did you have any problems with your fish? One roofing
:>contractor here said he sold some for a pond and the owner lost some
When I was in the same quandary I contacted Firestone directly, who
assured me that Pondgard (guard?) is the only EPDM safe for fish. When I
questioned the rep closely, he admitted that Pondgard and their standard
roofing EPDM are identical in every way except packaging--according to the
Firestone rep, there are NO additives in roofing liner that aren't in
Pondgard. He said that Pondgard is "certified," that is, if fish die from
materials in authentic Pondgard (as though you could prove that),
Firestone would replace the liner, whereas if fish die and the liner is
roofing material, they won't replace it. What this means apparently is
that their warranty underwriters have calculated approximately how much
square footage of liner/roofing material (remember, Firestone says they're
identical) they can afford to replace for basically no good reason (as
opposed to manufacturing defects that would necessitate replacement
because the material won't hold water or repel if from a roof), and they
repackage roof liner into Pondgard packages with those statistics in
mind--thus, they "certify" Pondgard.
BTW, I went with a Permalon HDPE liner, partly because the cost was much
lower, but mostly because the shipping weight was 1/3 or so that of EPDM.
A 800 square foot liner from REEFIndustries (Standard disclaimers) weighs
just 75 pounds, and with shipping cost only $216. Thus far I'm very
pleased--it was easy to handle and install (a two-person job at the most).
And for the faint of heart who still can't decide whether to trust
non-pond intended materials, it is sold as a pond liner.
Sean Barry
PAISANO68
where are u located?
can i buy from u direct?
KenCo
>
> sure there is, use permalon. cheap, strong and can make nice square
> corners. doesnt take 10 people to handle it either. Ingrid
>
> Ponderi...@webtv.net (William Toto) wrote:
> In the end I don't think their is any solid
> >answer.
> dr-...@execpc.com in the Frozen Tundra zone 5 sorta
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> for care of goldfish go to http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
and only .37 sq ft :)
PONDUDE
My 2 cents: (1) Roof liners can contain anti-fungal and anti-bacterial
additives as well as others. Do you want those in your pond?
(2) I have a hard time believing what I hear as second hand where sales reps
have told someone the products are the same. Sales people have little to do
with chemical engineering and manufacturing. I'm a pesimist when it comes to
sales people, and would rely more on direct experience. I have read in the
news groups about people knowing other people that have been successful with
roof liners. Still, its second hand info.
Anybody with first hand experience out there with or without success???
Thanks.
Jeannie
PONDUDE <pon...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990911012656...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
Dave
> I'm having a tough time deciding myself with my new pond....
> My 2 cents: (1) Roof liners can contain anti-fungal and anti-bacterial
> additives as well as others. Do you want those in your pond?
> (2) I have a hard time believing what I hear as second hand where sales reps
> have told someone the products are the same. Sales people have little to do
> with chemical engineering and manufacturing. I'm a pesimist when it comes to
> sales people, and would rely more on direct experience. I have read in the
> news groups about people knowing other people that have been successful with
> roof liners. Still, its second hand info.
> Anybody with first hand experience out there with or without success???
> Thanks.
According to the information I have, there are no "pesticides" added to roofing
EPDM. The only chemical difference is a change in the curing compounds used.
This info is from the chemical division at Firestone Building Products.
The problem with taking a survey is the people who used roofing liner
successfully aren't going to have a problem responding. The people who killed
their fish with it may not be too quick to respond. Personally I know of one
person, out of about 20, who used roofing EPDM and had unexplained fish deaths.
Too much of a crap shoot for me to save .10 a square foot.
Peace
Dave
--
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Board of Directors
Ethical Hackers Against Pedophilia Corp.
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Warren May
PONDUDE <pon...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990911012656...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
> I'm having a tough time deciding myself with my new pond....
> My 2 cents: (1) Roof liners can contain anti-fungal and anti-bacterial
> additives as well as others.
Urban Legend.
Single ply roofing EPDM is NOTHING but EPDM and a light dusting of talc to
facilitate easier handling (so it doesn't stick to itself). There is NO
anti-fungal or anti-bacterial element present. Dont believe me? Go to
www.firestone.com and read their own chemical analysis. They have their MSDS
data posted there also. Follow it up with an e-mail and they will reply to
this effect. This is first hand experience.
They DO however manufacture multiple-ply, reinforced, fire-retardant
versions of EPDM for roofing applications requiring these attributes, but
this is not the product that pond'ers are referring to, nor have I ever
heard of someone using these for pond purposes.
FWIW, if Permalon were available here in Canada i'd give THAT a try. If
everything Ken (http://www.kencofish.com) says about it is true, who'd
bother with EPDM?
Warren.
DJsEros
>.......... ahhh, no, most of the people who post about roofing EPDM use it
>for their own ponds .... first hand experience.
First hand experience is always BEST. I will be digging in early October. By
the middle of October the whole will be ready to be lined. Roofing EPDM and
pond EPDM are probably the EXACT SAME THING... Now the EPDM vs Permalon
thing....
No one I know has used Permalon. I am seriously thinking about it. Anyone out
there, besides Ken who sells it, have any information.
Sorry Ken, but if the pond EPDM sales guys are suspect, then you have to be
suspect too.
I want to do this once. And I want to do it right.
Dave
Warren May
news:19990911140738...@ng-bh1.aol.com...
>
> Sorry Ken, but if the pond EPDM sales guys are suspect, then you have to
> be suspect too.
Not really. Ken has never claimed that there is more than one type of
Permalon and that his is the better one. He has merely promoted the product
based on its favorable physical properties, and it's cost effectiveness.
Warren.
Jeannie
liner, or overcharging for the roofgrade. It was a .55/sq.ft. diff in
material for me....or $255.00 savings......(no crap shoot for me) :)
Dave <Xdho...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:37DA5CDC...@ameritech.net...
> PONDUDE wrote:
>
> > I'm having a tough time deciding myself with my new pond....
> > My 2 cents: (1) Roof liners can contain anti-fungal and anti-bacterial
Rick Yerke
>>
>>.......... ahhh, no, most of the people who post about roofing EPDM use it
>>for their own ponds .... first hand experience.
>
>First hand experience is always BEST. I will be digging in early October. By
>the middle of October the whole will be ready to be lined. Roofing EPDM and
>pond EPDM are probably the EXACT SAME THING... Now the EPDM vs Permalon
>thing....
>
>No one I know has used Permalon. I am seriously thinking about it. Anyone out
>there, besides Ken who sells it, have any information.
>
>suspect too.
>
>
>Dave
liner from Ken.I installed the liner myself with no problems ( a 10 foot by 18
foot piece weighs only 17 pounds).I have no leaks and the liner is very easy
to install.
Rick Yerke Phone (570)842-4857
42 Williams St.
P.O. Box 392
Moscow Pa. 18444
USA
DJsEros
>to install.
Rick,
That is the kind of thing I need to hear. I am leaning toward Permalom, and
Kenco, but it is good to hear from someone who is using the product.
Dave
Rod Farlee
>Permalon and that his is the better one.
Apologies for the nitpicky aside, but there are a range of grades
of Permalon.
The various grades are appropriate for lakes, landfill covers,
floating covers for waste lagoons, ice skating rinks, vapor barriers
... and the grade Ken sells, for ponds!
There are also other brands of HDPE liners, most marketed for
various industrial and construction applications.
So based on the specs, Ken could rightly make the above claim,
but he doesn't need to. Its specs speak for themselves.
- Rod
Warren May
that I didn't know this merely reinforced my point about Ken's claims (or
lack thereof). He certainly promotes the product frequently here. Now if
only they sold it here in the Great White North...
Warren
--
Reply address obviously disguised to reduce spam at ibm.net
Rod Farlee <rodf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990912060914...@ng-cj1.aol.com...
KenCo
>
> >Ken has never claimed that there is more than one type of
> >Permalon and that his is the better one.
>
> Apologies for the nitpicky aside, but there are a range of grades
> of Permalon.
> The various grades are appropriate for lakes, landfill covers,
> floating covers for waste lagoons, ice skating rinks, vapor barriers
> ... and the grade Ken sells, for ponds!
> There are also other brands of HDPE liners, most marketed for
> various industrial and construction applications.
> So based on the specs, Ken could rightly make the above claim,
> but he doesn't need to. Its specs speak for themselves.
> - Rod
>
> >He has merely promoted the product based on its favorable
> >physical properties, and it's cost effectiveness.
Permalon Ply X-210 (.37 sq ft.) is for ponds (20 mil)
its also avail. w/ a Geo Textile backing bonded onto it
(.50 sq. ft. total, Liner + Backing)
Ply X-100 (6 mil) or Ply X-150 (9 mil) types are used
for containment barriers/Ice Rinks etc.
I think Ply 150 can also be used for veggie filters
all types meet Gov. ASTM D-3083 specs for soil burial.
really important w/ brain dead inspectors who are looking hard
for code violations.
brett rowley
pon...@aol.com (PONDUDE) wrote:
>I'm having a tough time deciding myself with my new pond....
>My 2 cents: (1) Roof liners can contain anti-fungal and anti-bacterial
>additives as well as others. Do you want those in your pond?
Hmmm...I wonder what salt, malachite green, formalin, oxilinic acid, neomycin,
tetracycline, etc. ad-infinitum, are?
I know lots of folks that want and do put anti-fungal and anti-bacterial substances in
thier ponds.
>(2) I have a hard time believing what I hear as second hand where sales reps
>have told someone the products are the same. Sales people have little to do
>with chemical engineering and manufacturing. I'm a pesimist when it comes to
>sales people, and would rely more on direct experience. I have read in the
>news groups about people knowing other people that have been successful with
>roof liners. Still, its second hand info.
>Anybody with first hand experience out there with or without success???
>Thanks.
I don't sell anything at all, except fish. Well... I also sell my services as a fisheries
biologist. I helped two friends get roofing liner for ponds. One built a very nice 2000
gallon pond in the patio of his townhome, for koi. The other built a very nice 5000 gallon
pool in a gully on a steep hillside in W. Texas to water wildlife with. Both are very
happy with thier results.
Brett
>
Bonnie Espenshade
KenCo wrote:
> Permalon Ply X-210 (.37 sq ft.) is for ponds (20 mil)
> its also avail. w/ a Geo Textile backing bonded onto it
> (.50 sq. ft. total, Liner + Backing)
>
> Ply X-100 (6 mil) or Ply X-150 (9 mil) types are used
> for containment barriers/Ice Rinks etc.
> I think Ply 150 can also be used for veggie filters
>
> all types meet Gov. ASTM D-3083 specs for soil burial.
> really important w/ brain dead inspectors who are looking hard
> for code violations.
>
> --
> Ken Arnold, ICQ # 1028648
> KenCo Fish & Supplies Pond and Aquarium fish,
> Shipping plants/fish etc. a specialty
> Imported & domestic Koi,Goldfish,Orandas,
> Tropicals,exotics, Piranhas etc.
> http://www.kencofish.com mailto:ke...@kencofish.com
Hi Ken,
Is the Permalon with backing similiar to the Ultiliner by Tetra? I really
like the idea of the backing and liner together. Do you sell much of this
product and is it as easy to handle as the Permalon?
Hal
>No one I know has used Permalon. I am seriously thinking about it. Anyone out
>there, besides Ken who sells it, have any information.
I have one molded fiberglass pond, one rubber lined and one permalon
and if I do it again the next one will be permalon.
Regards,
Hal
Derek Broughton
> My 2 cents: (1) Roof liners can contain anti-fungal and
anti-bacterial
> additives as well as others. Do you want those in your pond?
It's possible that they _could_, but where do you get that
information? We hear it all the time, but when it comes right
down to it, no manufacturer seems to have admitted ever putting
any fungicide in their roofing liner.
> (2) I have a hard time believing what I hear as second hand
where sales reps
> have told someone the products are the same. Sales people have
little to do
Actually, we never seem to see this from "sales" people. They're
all telling us that they're different - so that you have to pay
the premium for the nice safe fish-grade epdm.
The safest solution seems to be to save the money and buy fish
safe Permalon (and just what was the price, Ken? :-) )
--
Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond)
rec.ponds FAQ http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html
A fool's bolt is soon shot. - Shakespeare
Heritage58
KenCo
>
> KenCo wrote:
>
> > Permalon Ply X-210 (.37 sq ft.) is for ponds (20 mil)
> > its also avail. w/ a Geo Textile backing bonded onto it
> > (.50 sq. ft. total, Liner + Backing)
> >
> > Ply X-100 (6 mil) or Ply X-150 (9 mil) types are used
> > for containment barriers/Ice Rinks etc.
> > I think Ply 150 can also be used for veggie filters
> >
> > all types meet Gov. ASTM D-3083 specs for soil burial.
> > really important w/ brain dead inspectors who are looking hard
> > for code violations.
> >
>
> Is the Permalon with backing similiar to the Ultiliner by Tetra? I really
> like the idea of the backing and liner together. Do you sell much of this
> product and is it as easy to handle as the Permalon?
> --
> Bonnie
> NJ
>
> http://www.users.fast.net/~maebe/index.htm
no clue about the Tetra prod.
its mostly sold for large (5-10,000 sq ft +) ponds
but just as easy to work w/ as reg. Permalon.
commercial pond builders dont want the hassle
of seper. underlayment.
i.e. a current order is for 3, 150'Lx75'Wx10'D
ponds (843,000 gals approx. ea.)
small ponds would be great w/ it also,but people
are sometimes penny wise and dollar foolish :)
they would rather spend weeks rounding up newspaper
etc to use as an underlayment.
DJsEros
>and if I do it again the next one will be permalon.
>
Thanks Hal,
That is the kind of first hand information I need.
Dave
bobby
GILLS.
dr-...@execpc.com wrote in message <37da64b0$0$11...@news.execpc.com>...
>pon...@aol.com (PONDUDE) wrote:
>> (1) Roof liners can contain anti-fungal and anti-bacterial additives as
well as others.
>of the the Materials Data Safety sheets?
>
>>(2) I have a hard time believing what I hear as second hand where sales
reps
>>have told someone the products are the same. Sales people have little to
do
to
>>sales people, and would rely more on direct experience.
>
>these additives in roofing, but not "ponding" EPDM?
>
>
>>I have read in the news groups about people knowing other people that have
been successful with roof liners. Still, its second hand info.
>
Rod Farlee
>TALC, WHICH CAN CLOG FISH GILLS.
Firestone "PondGard" brand liner is also coated with talc.
No difference.
For more experiences using roofing as pond liner, see:
http://www.theplantplace.com/roofliner.htm
- Rod
liquidroo...@gmail.com
myown...@gmail.com
> Interestingly enough, Firestones own website shows 5 types of EPDM
> commercial roofing membranes, ranging from single layer EPDM (like we're
> using in our ponds) to more complex versions including fire retardant and
> multi-layer structurally reinforced versions, each with supporting MSDS info
> and Technical Specifications data. Their "Pond Gard" liner page merely
> states "PondGard is based on EPDM synthetic rubber, a highly flexible stable
> material. PondGard is specially formulated to be safe for exposure to fish
> and plant life in decorative ponds.", but yet offers no supporting
> information regarding toxicity or lack thereof... only a scanned brochure
> offering testamonials about how superior the product is.
>
> Hmmmmm.....
> Warren.
> Jeannie <jtr...@gtn.net> wrote in message
> news:37b57...@207.176.194.240...
> > I disagree with this. I've used Firestone roofing liner (45 ml) without
> > even rinsing it, and have had NO problems. I know of 6 other ppl in my
> area
> > that have done the same, without a problem. The only difference in the
> > liner is the stamp on the back...."Pond Guard"
> > Why pay .50 cents more/sq.ft. just for the stamp ?????
> >
> > Cindy McCord <cmc...@one.net> wrote in message
> > news:37B55008...@one.net...
> > > Yes, the EPDM liner from roofing companies is cheap for ponds, but I
> > > refuse to use it in my installation for customers simply because I
> > > cannot warranty it the way I can the EPDM sold for ponds. You mentioned
> > > the rinsing and scrubbing process and this is ABSOLUTELY necessary - the
> > > roofing EPDM is often coated or impregnated with an algae inhibitor
> > > which is extremely toxic to fish and aquatic plants.
> > >
> > > Ideally, plants go into a new pond after dechlorinating the water, fish
> > > and scavengers go into the pond 2-3 weeks later. This info comes from a
> > > very reputable fish hatchery that I've done business with for many
> > > years.
> > >
> > > I've seen do-it-yourselfers use everything from kiddie pools to old
> > > swimming pool liners for their ponds - in many cases this works out just
> > > fine and in some cases time and money will be spent later on to do it
> > > the right way!! When your budget permits, I vote for doing in the right
> > > way the first time.
> > >
> > > Cindy
> > >
> >
> Years later here I come. Found these posts. Amazing, that now in 2014 I am researching all that is being talked about. Why...I HAVE A BAD CONTRACTOR AND ALL THAT HE HAS DONE WRONG...AND BACKED BY A HUGE COMPANY, AQUASCAPE, I HAVE FOUND LSFR MARKING ON MY RUBBER. IS IT FIRESTONE? YOU BET! IS IT POND GARD! NO! HAVE I HAD FISH DIE? YES! FOR ONLY REASONS I BELIEVE HAVE TO DO WITH LINER? NO! ARE MY FISH LETHARGIC? YES! I'M VOTING FOR POND GARD FOR REASONS OF MARKETING, PRICING, WARRANTY
ETC..........IF YOU SELL ME SOMETHING, NO MATTER WHAT, SELL WHAT THE MARKET SAYS IT IS!!!!!! I TOO AM TALKING TO FIRESTONE, REPS, BIG COMPANIES AND EVEN THE MANUFACTURER'S PLANT'S....EVERYONE IS BACKPEDALING...HMMMMMM IF THERE IS A BULL IN THE CHINA SHOP...SOMETHING WILL GET BROKE! GAG ORDERS, LAW SUITS...YOU BET!!!!!
myown...@gmail.com
> trade) bears the EXACT same brand-name markings and trademarks as the "pond
> liner" being sold at outrageous prices locally. I have received no
> complaints from the fish, either.
Joan keeley
Eco- friendly fish pond liner is also good for repairing the pond liners leak. Isn't it amazing that a product having lot of quality is useful for its own type of product. The small superficial cracks and crevices pond liner leaks seal off during the "curing" or drying process amazingly. After curing your pond liner you can use it for a long time with surety.
Ypu can also get detailed about EPDM Pond Liner by visiting this link http://joankeeleypond.blog.com/2015/05/21/why-pondpro2000-is-best-for-pond-liners/