"Rapid" Fixer from Sodium Thiosulfate
Richard Knoppow
someone mentioned having a life time supply of Sodium
Thiosulfate but deciding to use rapid fixer.
It is possible to make a type of rapid fixer using Sodium
thiosulfate by adding Ammonium Chloride. There are
variations of this formula, but this one is fairly standard.
It is essentially Kodak F-5, modified.
If a non-hardening fixer is desired leave out the Alum.
Kodak F-7 Rapid Fixer
Water (at 125F, or 52C) 600.0 ml
Sodium thiosulfate, crystals 300.0
grams
Ammonium Chloride 50.0
grams
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 15.0
grams
Acetic Acid, 28% 47.0 ml
Boric Acid, crystals 7.5
grams
Potassium Alum 15.0
grams
Water to make 1.0
liter
The Ammonium Chloride should be added to the Thiosulfate
solution, not to the mixed fixing bath. Otherwise it will
cause sludging.
Note that this and other ammonium fixers tend to attack
stainless steel and should not be left in SS tanks or trays
for long periods of time.
--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dick...@ix.netcom.com
Jean-David Beyer
is the same as F-7 but replace 50 gm of NH4Cl with 60 gm of (NH4)2SO4.
I have tried these, and they are faster than F-5 or F-6, but they are
not as fast as Kodak's Rapid Fixer. For TMax films, anyway.
--
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Richard Knoppow
"Jean-David Beyer" <jdb...@exit109.com> wrote in message
news:3E8121DF...@exit109.com...
if one has big bags of sodium thiosulfate:-)
I have the F-9 formula but couldn't find it when posting.
I suspect a good non-hardening fixer could be made by
using the thiosulfate, ammonium in either form, and sulfite.
Jean-David Beyer
> "Jean-David Beyer" <jdb...@exit109.com> wrote in message
> news:3E8121DF...@exit109.com...
>>If F-7 eats your stainless steel too quickly, try F-9.
> Formula
>>is the same as F-7 but replace 50 gm of NH4Cl with 60 gm
> of (NH4)2SO4.
>>I have tried these, and they are faster than F-5 or F-6,
> but they are
>>not as fast as Kodak's Rapid Fixer. For TMax films,
> anyway.
> Not as good as ammonium thiosulfate but perhaps helpful
> if one has big bags of sodium thiosulfate:-)
> I have the F-9 formula but couldn't find it when posting.
In a footnote to F-7 formula in Kodak's F-1 book from 1973.
> I suspect a good non-hardening fixer could be made by
> using the thiosulfate, ammonium in either form, and sulfite.
>
Since I have about 10# of Ammonium ThioCyanate lying around,
I bet I could mix up a faster fixer than any of these. And,
since ThioCyanate tends to soften gelatine, I could claim
that this would be even better than a non-hardening fixer.
I could call it a "softening fixer" and make extravagant claims
for it. I wonder how long a thread we could get from this. ;-)
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Wayne
>
> In a recent post in this group (which I can't find now)
> someone
That was me. Thanks. :) I hate to see that bucket-o-hypo go to waste.
I would be very interested to see any other variations of this formula,
especially if they would allow me to use bisulfite or citric acid, which
I have, in place of either of boric/acetic acids, that I dont currently
have.
Dan Quinn
I suggest that all review, this NG, the thread, World's Fastest Fix.
Dan
Jean-David Beyer
Probably just Potassium Cyanide and a little sulphite. If ever there
were a case for alkalyne fixers, a formula like this would be it. You
sure would not want it acid. ;-)
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Wayne
OK, I read it, but I didnt see where the claims of rapid fixing by plain
hypo were substantiated. I'm not even clear where they originated
Wayne
Dan Quinn
> OK, I read it, but I didnt see where the claims of rapid fixing by plain
IIRC, Photographer's Formulary and Steve Anchell were credited. Take it
for what it might be worth. I use fix very dilute, one-shot. If used two
bath I give DW fiber two minutes in each. If used one bath, three minutes.
Dan
John Stockdale
...
> OK, I read it, but I didnt see where the claims of rapid fixing by plain
> hypo were substantiated. I'm not even clear where they originated
In solution, the ammonium chloride dissociates and the ammonium ions
give the same effect of ammonium thiosulphate. It's not as fast as
straight ammonium thiosulphate fixer, but it's faster than ordinary
fixer and it's a lot easier to buy the ingredients.
Wayne
>
> RE: Wayne <way...@removethis.fastmail.fm> wrote
>
>
> > OK, I read it, but I didnt see where the claims of rapid fixing by plain
> > hypo were substantiated. I'm not even clear where they originated.
>
> IIRC, Photographer's Formulary and Steve Anchell were credited.
IIRC, you were the one crediting it to them. :-) But I dont recall
reading where you saw them make that claim. I dont see it in the PF
catalog and hopefully you will save me the trouble of re-reading the
cookbook.
Take it
> for what it might be worth.
I will, I just would like to see where its in print so I can evaluate
the info firsthand. Thanks
I use fix very dilute, one-shot. If used two
> bath I give DW fiber two minutes in each. If used one bath, three minutes.
> Dan
Wsyne
Dan Quinn
Wayne
> > > OK, I read it, but I didnt see where the claims of rapid fixing by plain
> > > hypo were substantiated. I'm not even clear where they originated.
Dan
> > IIRC, Photographer's Formulary and Steve Anchell were credited.
Wayne
> IIRC, you were the one crediting it to them. :-) But I dont recall
> reading where you saw them make that claim. I dont see it in the PF
> catalog and hopefully you will save me the trouble of re-reading the
> cookbook.
Dan
> > Take it for what it might be worth.
Wayne
> I will, I just would like to see where its in print so I can evaluate
> the info firsthand. Thanks
Dan
> I use fix very dilute, one-shot. If used two
> > bath I give DW fiber two minutes in each. If used one bath, three minutes.
The Formulary's instructions were on a one pound bottle of sodium
thiosulfate, since emptied and disposed.
From Google enter, anchell plain. More interesting info there. Dan
Richard Knoppow
> Richard Knoppow wrote:
> >
> > In a recent post in this group (which I can't find
now)
> > someone
>
>
> That was me. Thanks. :) I hate to see that bucket-o-hypo
go to waste.
>
> I would be very interested to see any other variations of
this formula,
> especially if they would allow me to use bisulfite or
citric acid, which
> I have, in place of either of boric/acetic acids, that I
dont currently
> have.
>
Citric acid is not used in fixing baths because it is
incompatible with alum hardener. It is probably usable in a
non-hardening bath but is not necessary. I've not been able
to find any fixer formulas using Citric acid.
Metabisulfite can be used for non hardening acid baths.
Here is an example.
Agfa/Ansco 203 Non-Hardening Fixing Bath Stock Solution
Sodium Thiosulfate, crystaline 475.0
grams
Potassium Metabisulfite 67.5
grams
Water to make 1.0
liter
Dissolve the thiosulfate first. When the solution has cooled
add the Metabisulfite.
For use dilute the stock solution 1 part with 1 part
water.
Probably Sodium Metabisulfite could be used weight for
weight.
I don't know if this would work as a rapid fixer with the
addition of Ammonium chloride. It would certainly work with
Ammonium Thiosulfate in the right amount.
Fixing baths consisting of thiosulfate and sulfite work
fine provided that the film or paper is well rinsed between
the developer and fixer. They are slightly alkaline so an
acid stop bath can not be used with them.
The metabisulfite fixer is mildly acid. It should be used
with a stop bath since its capacity to buffer carried over
developer is not great.
Metabisulfite also works well as a stop bath.
Kodak SB-6 Metabisulfite Stop Bath
Sodium or Potassium Metabisulfite 30.0 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter
This is probably a better stop bath than acetic or citric
acid to use with the metabisulfite fixing bath since it also
has little buffering power against added acids. To much acid
will accelerate the sulfurization of the fixing bath.
I hope this is the sort of thing you want.
John Stockdale
....
> Metabisulfite also works well as a stop bath.
> Kodak SB-6 Metabisulfite Stop Bath
> Sodium or Potassium Metabisulfite 30.0 grams
> Water to make 1.0 liter
It has been said that potassium compounds should not be used in stop
baths because when it is carried over into fixer it inhibits fixing.
I don't remember where I read this: I could find the reference if
anyone is interested.
Dan Quinn
"I could find the reference if anyone is interested." Search this NG
for, dress fixer. Dr. M. J. Gudzinowicz refers to that allegation. He has
said that only in the case of potassium being the ONLY salt of whatever, ie
thiosulfate, will the fix fail. I read that to mean, if the PREDOMINATE.
Perhaps I am conservative. Potassium is in the formulas of many fix and
pre-fix solutions including Rodinal which, save for the agent, is all K.
Dan
Richard Knoppow
"Dan Quinn" <dan.c...@att.net> wrote in message
news:b379902d.03033...@posting.google.com...
I think the idea of this is that some potassium
thiosulfate is formed in the fixing bath. Potassium
thiosulfate is not a very effective fixer compared to sodium
or ammonium thiosulfate. I suspect its really a non issue
especially if the film or paper is drained well between
baths.
Agfa seems to have liked Potassium salts I suspect because
they may have been cheaper than sodium in Germany at the
time these formulas were concocted. In developers Potassium
salts can be somewhat more photographically active than
sodium. There have been reports that some warm tone
developers are slightly warmer when made up with potassium
rather than sodium. I can't personally vouch for this.
In any case, sodium metabilulfite can be used weight for
weight for the Potassium salt wherever the latter is
specified. A metabisulite stop bath is effective and does
not have the vinegar odor of acetic acid, which some people
find offensive.
Note that sometimes sodium bisulfite is specified in
formulas. For the most part this becomes metabisulfite or is
metabisulfite. The two are interchangible in photographic
formulae.
John Stockdale
salts should be avoided in stop baths.
I agree that if you drained the stop bath from the paper then the
effect would be very minimal. Much of what Agfa have written about
their B+W chemicals, and still write, seems to assume a very high
utilization of chemicals. This makes the chemistry critical. My
experience is of using generous quantities of chemicals for far less
than their possible capacity. Many problems don't even surface. When
you look at what we invest in equipment, film, and time, who cares
what the chemicals cost? (within limits, of course)
Wayne
> Snipping.
>
> Citric acid is not used in fixing baths because it is
> incompatible with alum hardener. It is probably usable in a
> non-hardening bath but is not necessary. I've not been able
> to find any fixer formulas using Citric acid.
There is one, I think, in my old "Photo facts and formulas", which I
fogot allllllll about. I'll look (runs upstairs).
Yup.
Citric acid fixing bath.
Hypo 400 gm
citric acid 30 gm
sodium sulfite 35 gm
water @ 125 deg. 1000ml
dissolve the hypo in half the water, the acid and sulfite in 1/4, and
when cool mix and make up to bulk
Now the question that comes to mind is, do I even need any acid at all
in the rapid-fix formula you posted, if I'm not using hardener?? Why not
just hypo, ammonium chloride and sulfite? Haist mentions that ammonium
chloride can be added to any fix to speed it up, and that there is an
ideal (and inverse ) concentration for each concentration of hypo,
though he stops there. So I guess I could do that, I just dont know how
much NH4 CL to add. Plain hypo-sulfite-NH4CL would the simplest, if one
could find a formula for it....
> Metabisulfite can be used for non hardening acid baths.
> Here is an example.
>
> Agfa/Ansco 203 Non-Hardening Fixing Bath Stock Solution
> Sodium Thiosulfate, crystaline 475.0
> grams
> Potassium Metabisulfite 67.5
> grams
> Water to make 1.0
> liter
>
> Dissolve the thiosulfate first. When the solution has cooled
> add the Metabisulfite.
> For use dilute the stock solution 1 part with 1 part
> water.
>
> Probably Sodium Metabisulfite could be used weight for
> weight.
> I don't know if this would work as a rapid fixer with the
> addition of Ammonium chloride.
The answer is yes, according to Haist, but again we just dont know how
much to add...plain hypo would be easier, as i dont need acid
It would certainly work with
> Ammonium Thiosulfate in the right amount.
> Fixing baths consisting of thiosulfate and sulfite work
> fine provided that the film or paper is well rinsed between
> the developer and fixer. They are slightly alkaline so an
> acid stop bath can not be used with them.
This is what I used to use, before I went rapid-fix. Refresh my
fractured brain cells as to why I cant use an acid stop with it, because
I know I did use a citric acid stop with plain sulfite-hypo with no
apparent ill effects. I didnt process very many prints that way though,
before going to rapid fix.
wayne
Wayne
> The answer is yes, according to Haist,
Wall & Jordan in Photo Facts and Formulas, that is. Dont know where my
brain got Haist from....
Wayne