Q: Verifying that specific dog breeders' sites are legitimate?
Chris Tsao
breeders whose web sites I access online are legitimate or fake
scammers?
It's so hard to find the kind of dog I'm looking for, that I will
possibly have to have one shipped from a far-away part of the country.
I just found a dog that I like after searching practically without a
break since this morning and I shall do a web search on the breeder in
case the dog is still available, but in the mean time, can you please
help me relieve my anxiety?? Thanks again.
Chris
P.S. From what I've read in breeders' sites today, the breeders will
ship if both the temperature in the state the dog is departing from and
arriving to is below 85 degrees, so assuming that the temperature is
right, do I have to worry much? Is it too risky to ship on an airline?
I cannot wait. I have a dog who's 17 and probably only has a little
over a month left and I need to obtain my new dog before he's put to
sleep in order to lesson the impact. If I don't get the new dog before
he has to be put to sleep, it will be the first time in my life that I
will not have had a dog and I'll be down in the dumps and all shook up
and more than likely suffer a sort of culture shock if you will.
TO...@dog-play.com
> Hi, Can you please tell me if there is a way to check to see if the dog
> breeders whose web sites I access online are legitimate or fake
> scammers?
Networking. First presumably with all the dogs available from shelters
and rescues if you are choosing to go through a breeder you want dogs from
quality breeder, right? So that means a breeder who
(a) health tests for problems not obvious in a routine veterinary exam,
and if available to detect carrier, not just affected status (and if you
don't know what that means you aren't ready to evaluate a breeder yet.
Learn the rudimentary basics of genetics so you will be less likly to be
scammed.)
(b) submits the results to a registry
(c) makes those results available whether good or bad
(d) understands that INFORMATION is required to make good breeding
decisions, a bad report is even more necessary information than a good one
(e) provides you information sufficient for you to check that the sire and
dam do indeed appear in the registry
- OK so far you aren't 100% safe but the use of the indpendent registry
knocks out a huge number of the unknowledgable or uncaring breeders. They
won't know or care about improving and tracking breed health. Most
scammers aren't dedicated to their fraud enough to invent false records in
the registry, although that does happen. If a breeder can't be bothered
providing and recording genetic health information then move on, to
another breed if necessary. One one scam is to claim a breed has no
problems, or the breeder's lines have no problems. If you don't look, and
you don't keep and SHARE comparable data that kind of claim is simply
baseless.
Next - what is the breeder claiming the dogs have done to warrant being
bred? If it isn't something with at least rudimentary objective
standards, move on to the next breeder. Every breed should have qualities
that can be judged objectively - or at least with SOME objectivity, so
that there is record of more than the breeder's belief (earnest or
otherwise) with regard to those qualities. Get the information on which
organizatiosn have evaluated those qualities, then contact the
organizations about how to verify the information. For example, if a
breeder claims both sire and dam have AKC conformation championships, that
information can be checked. If a breeder claims stellar performance in
USBCHA herding, that information can be verified. There are any number of
things a breeder might use to evaluate breeding quality based on OBJECTIVE
standards, find out what is relevant for the breed.
Next, what is the level of concern from the breeder about who you are and
what you plan to do with the dog, and whether you and the dog are suited
to each other? The less concern from the breeder the bigger the red flag.
Does the breeder have someone local who will be checking out YOUR claims?
Or is the breeder only interested in the $$$$ you will be sending?
Has the breeder bred before? And if so where are those dogs now? And what
are they doing? Are any local enough that you can meet the dogs and talk
to the people who have them? Dogs in most competive fields can be checked
out either on line or through the sanctioning organization.
What are the breeder's terms? What is the rememdy if the dog turns out at
age 3 to have a genetic health issue that might result in blindness, or
lameness, or some other burdensome condition? If the breeder requires
return of the dog, then look elsewhere. If the breeder will ONLY provide
a replacement puppy, then look elsewhere.
What will the breeder do if some unforseen circumstance means you can't
keep the dog, and it is now 3 years old? If the breeder will do nothing,
look elsewhere.
If you have only been looking for a dog since this morning then you will
indeed have a hard time finding a good quality breeder. To get a good
breeder usualy means taking the time to network through discussion groups,
personal contacts, breed clubs etc. It means building a relationship of
trust. There are far more bad breeders than good ones. That is why we
kill milliions of dogs a year. People are more interested in getting what
they want NOW than in avoiding contributing to the problem. Good breeders
are good in part because they produce FEW dogs.
There are plenty of wonderful dogs in rescue and shelters. If they don't
meet your needs at least take care not to deal with the kinds of breeders
whose dogs end up there.
--
Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com/
http://dogplay.com/Shop/dogplayshop.htm
TheAmazing...@mail.com
TO...@dog-play.com wrote:
> On 16 Jul 2005 14:59:21 -0700 Chris Tsao <rigid...@aol.com> whittled these words:
> > Hi, Can you please tell me if there is a way to check to
> > see if the dog breeders whose web sites I access online
> > are legitimate or fake scammers?
>
> Networking.
BWEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAHHAAA!!!
> First presumably with all the dogs available
> from shelters and rescues
Ahhh, THAT "NETWORKING"!
If it wasn't for HOWER DOG LOVERS who HURT INTIMDIATE
MUTILATE and MURDER SHELTER and RESCUE dogs and during
their NORMAL BUSINESS DISADVANTAGE dogs and their heelpless
guillible ignorant owners of their original HOWESES
for a "WEE BIT OF MONEY" both comin an goin, INSTEAD
of teachin those owners HOWE to pupperly handle and
train their dogs WITHOWET HURTIN THEM like HOWE your
own PERSONAL REAL LIFE IN PERSON PALS like lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn does and DENIES HER OWN WRITTEN
WORDS, we wouldn't have DOGS IN RESCUES and SHELTERS,
Master Of Deception blankman <{); ~ ) >
LIKE THIS:
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:
"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20
ginge...@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.
Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.
"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.
Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."
8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).
If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.
This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."
=================
"Remember this - The decision to "do right" that most
helps a dog's character is the decision that he makes
himself. You cannot teach a dog to not want something,
any more than you can teach a human not to want
something."
"I'm a Koehler-based trainer and used almost
exactly the same techniques with my very dog
aggressive bitch.
2. I have often rejected many of Koehler's Capt.
13 methods, from his response to digging to tieing
things in a dog's mouth.
FWIW, I use almost none of Koehler's training
techniques, having found methods I prefer, but
still find much value in his approach to dogs.
Briefly, I didn't refer to Koehler and didn't
mean Koehler when I used the term
"confrontational".
Natalie, it is next to impossible to form any kind
of educated opinion on the work of the late Wm.
Koehler from what is said or quoted in this newsgroup.
The conclusion you have reached illustrates that.
Personally, I'm not a Koehler trainer,
I don't use a choke chain, and I don't
believe a dog learns anything by being
hung.
Please don't make the mistake of believing Jerry's
characterization of me or any other trainer. He has
never met any of us and has no idea how anyone
here actually trains.
Jerry labelling someone as a Koehler type
doesn't make it so.
Lynn K.
From: java...@yahoo.com (Lynn K.)
Date: 23 May 2003 23:43:58 -0700
Subject: Re: Prong Collars, Choke Collars, E-Collars
I prefer a prong for my own dog, and put one on him every 12 to 18
months when he is learning a specific new behavior and I need to be
able to give him a correction to signal that he is about to make a
wrong choice. But my preference for a prong over a choke chain or
electronic collar to give that signal is based on my own handling and
my dog's responses. It is impossible to make generalizations about
what works best for another dog/handler.
Lynn K.
From: java...@yahoo.com
Date: 21 Jun 2005 09:15:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Collars
The 1st tool I reached for was a choke chain because
it was the right tool for the dog. 30 minutes of brisk
heeling, not allowing him to bump or push and making him
sit slightly behind, and he was a different dog. A dog
who will be able to stay alive because of the proper use
of a choke chain.
Yeah, I get a little impatient with people who would
limit the use of valid tools because they don't
understand how and why they are effective.
Lynn K.
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?
Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
Lynn K.
Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>...
Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
quotes are true.
In the posts below you take responsibility for
making those calls.
In your post above, you state you do not
make those calls.
Which one is it?
BBBWEEEEEEAAAAAAHAHAHHAHHAAA!!!
From: java...@yahoo.com (Lynn K.)
Date: 18 Jan 2003 17:29:54 -0800
Subject: Re: Male dogs marking their territory, in the house
That's still a stress reaction. There don't
have to be 2 dogs involved to trigger marking.
Even a solitary dog can mark when stressed by
almost anything.
The key is the personal pronoun before the
word "territory". Of course the 2 dogs are
marking territory they consider theirs. Belly
bands are indeed a stopgap, but odor eradication
and healthy relationship & management are the
longterm answers.
Lynn K.
From: java...@yahoo.com (Lynn K.)
Date: 30 Apr 2004 14:04:46 -0700
Subject: Re: do pit bulls eat goats?
I've got the World's Worst Marking Monster in one of my beginner
classes. A 2 yr old Dalmatian, adopted from a breed rescue about a
month ago. Yesterday he marked 7 times - thankfully 3 times on his
owner. (clueless man who I suspect has both physical and mental
limitations) He then ripped one of my mats scratching after marking.
I'm considering requiring a belly band for him to continue in class
:-)
Lynn K.
From: java...@yahoo.com (Lynn K.)
Date: 19 Sep 2003 21:42:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Where we stand/sit/down/leave it Now
Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wil...@easynews.com> wrote in
message <news:amtmmvg8buhm70iq7...@4ax.com>...
> ??? So what's with the pissing in the house? Unless
> the dog has a physical problem, that sounds like a
> pretty clear sign of anxiety.
Nope. It's one of 3 things; not being housebroken (not
trained to go in a specific place), a physical problem,
or marking territory.
Dogs don't pee from anxiety unless they are directly faced
with the source of stress. Middle of the night roaming,
with everyone home, is not the time you'd see peeing from
stress.
Lynn K.
> if you are choosing to go through a breeder
Oh? You mean a ETHICKAL breeder who DON'T SELL
PUPPIES ON THE NET, Master Of Deception blankman?
UNLESS OF CURSE, they're YOUR OWN PERSONAL REAL
LIFE PALS who SELL PUPPIES ON THE NET, like dianne
s and lying frosty dahl <{); ~ ) >
> you want dogs from quality breeder, right?
Oh? You mean like HOWER OWN lying frosty dahl?:
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:a3h5qn$mra$1...@uwm.edu...
>Di,
> I don't believe you mentioned a particular kind of
> training. If you are interested in training retrieval
> behavior than do consider our own Amy Dahl's:
> The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a Well-
> Mannered, Obedient and Enthusiastic Gun Dog
> in 10 Minutes a Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl
You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"
"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog
I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance
Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But
Destructive," "I don't see why anyone would want
to choke or beat a dog, or how any trainer could
possibly get a good working dog by making them
unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying
frosty dahl.
> just $17.95 at Amazon.com.
> (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the few
> regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
> ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
> --Marshall
amy lying frosty dahl continues:
"On the other extreme, the really ard dogs
we have trained require much more frequent
and heavy application of pressure (PAIN j.h.)
to get the job done,
This is continued resistance to your increasing
authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
lying frosty dahl sez she doesn't twist:
"None of my posts, prior to or subsequent to
Jerry Howe's attacks, encourage anyone to
twist ears, beat dogs, confront, intimidate,
frighten, or any of the crap he constantly
attributes to me," lying frosty dahl.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies
HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog
lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS?
"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."
The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.
We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...
Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should
knee the dog in the chest, step on its toes, throw
him down by his ears and climb all over it like a
raped ape growling into his throat and bite IT on
his ears, or leash pop it on a pronged spiked pinch
choke collar or pop him in the snout with the heel
of your palm.
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
> So that means a breeder who
Hey? So far, it SEEMS all your ETHICKAL PALS
are lyin dog abusing punk thug cowards and
active acute long term incurable MENTAL CASES.
LIKE THIS:
Here's the ONLY thing YOUR OWN PERSONAL REAL
LIFE PAL lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn HASN'T
EVER CONTRADICTED or DENIED:
WORDS OF WISDOM
from our own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day
For Twenty Years
I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM
"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-depression)
requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every
day.
I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to learn
more, while happily sharing pertinent information
I have learned. But if I were ever to post such sh*t,
I would hope that every other reader of this group
would be rightfully outraged."
"Community is an evolutionary thing that we earn
the right to participate in by observing the
easily understood rules and contributing to in
constructive ways."
Lynn K.
"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."
Lynn K.
MOTHER AND CHILD REUNION
"KUCKOO!! CUCKOO!!!"
MOTHER (LOIS E.) 22 YEARS on TRICYCLICS,
DAUGHTER BIPOLAR...
YOU DO THE MATH
"What's really terrific, is now days you can say proudly,
'I take anti-depressives'"
From: Gary & lois Edwards (g...@bmi.net)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/02
BEEN ON TRICYCLICS FOR ABOUT 22 YEARS
"I don't take lithium, but I've been on trycyclics
for about 22 years. Been there, done that, have
the t-shirt to prove it. What's really terrific,
is now days you can say proudly,
"I take anti-depressives". Back when I started
taking them it was seen as something shameful.
If you cut your leg off, and were lying there with
a bleeding stump, you'd never let the word
depressed, pass your lips, or the doc's would say,
"You're depressed, on medication? Well, can't have
any pain meds.....you could become addicted."
The good old days. I actually had a Great Aunt who's
father locked her in her room back in the twenties
because she was simple. A shame that medication
probably would have helped her live a normal life.
No Denna, I was just saying with Darlene's
personality, she has a way of making grandiose
plans when at the top of her manic cycle....as
does my daughter. I wasn't saying that anyone
with problems could be counted on to be
irresponsible."
Lois E.
-----------------------------------
> (a) health tests for problems not obvious in a routine veterinary
> exam, and if available to detect carrier, not just affected status
> (and if you don't know what that means you aren't ready to evaluate
> a breeder yet.
Well then that means it BEHOOVES her to find a knowledgeable
MENTOR, LIKE YOURSELF, eh, Master Of Deception blankman? Let's
talk abHOWET HOWE your "INFORMATIONAL WEBSITE" MAKES MONEY off
of SELLIN INFORMATION, Master Of Deception blankman, you spammer.
> Learn the rudimentary basics of genetics
BWEEEEEEEEEAAHAHHAHHAHAAA!!!
They want to BUY A PUPPY, not study doctorate level genetics.
> so you will be less likly to be scammed.)
You mean, by someWON who'd SELL THEM MISLEADING INFORMATION
to NETWORK with your own punk thug coward mental case pals,
like yourself, Master Of Deception blankman?
> (b) submits the results to a registry
> (c) makes those results available whether good or bad
> (d) understands that INFORMATION is required to make good breeding
> decisions, a bad report is even more necessary information than a good one
> (e) provides you information sufficient for you to check that the sire and
> dam do indeed appear in the registry
Well those are all EXXXCELLENT questions to ask
of a ETHICKAL BREEDER, like your own pal lying
frosty dahl who DISCOVERED CANNIBALISM in Labradorable
dogs when they're LEFT ALONE shortly after whelpin
instead of BEING WATCHED CAREFULLY till mom dog has
recouperated from whelpin <{); ~ ) >
> - OK so far you aren't 100% safe
PERHAPS NOT. HOWEver, they just WIZED UP to a lot
of the SCAMMERS HOWET there on the web, eh Master
Of Deception blankman <{); ~ ) >
> but the use of the indpendent registry knocks out a
> huge number of the unknowledgable or uncaring breeders.
Well, that still doesn't ELIMINATE all the EXXXCELLENT
breeders WHO DON'T NEED TO TEST their own LINE BRED for
generations after generations of stock for GENETIC problem
your ETHICKAL BREEDERS SCREEN and TRY to overcome in their
ETHICKAL BREEDING programs:
PERHAPS you shouldn't BREED while SHELTER DOGS DIE,
diannes? LUCKY THING your PALS MURDER them dogs:
I'll bet you don't know a thing about me. I volunteered
as assistant to the euthanasia tech at our local shelter
for a while, and I know a bit about overpopulation and
unwanted animals.
This however has nothing at all to do with responsible
breeders, because responsible breeders don't contribute
to that problem," Mustang Sally.
> From: dian...@u.washington.edu (Dianne Schoenberg)
> Date: 1995/09/29
> Subject: Re: Cocka-dach... Cute little doggie
>In article <44h53n$...@nn.fast.net>, <m...@fast.net>
>wrote:
>
>> We have a 6 month old mutt that is just great !!
>> She is a Cocka-dauch.... 1/2 Cocker and 1/2
>> dauchshund.
>> She is about 25 pounds, has a dauch face and a
>> cocker body, but it mostly covered with shot
>> black >hair, like dachs usually have. Barely
>> sheds at all, and is just great.
>> This dog should be breed on purpose, not by accident
>> like this case !!
> I am delighted that you are so happy with your dog.
INDEED, dianne s?
> However, that's not a good reason to think about
> bringing more mixed-breeds into the world.
Well, certainly THAT'S not as admirable as breedin
UP to IMPROVE on hips shoulders head eyes color and
temperament, like HOWE you're doin, diannes.
> There are already far more mixed breeds than
> there are good homes for them...
NO PROBLEMO:
I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?
"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.
No different tune," ~Emily
>From: dian...@u.washington.edu (Dianne Schoenberg)
>Date: 1998/01/30 Subject: Briard litter planned (was:
>Re: Briard Puppies)
> At the urging of a friend :-),
Might that be your internet puppy miller financial
advisor, diannes?
> I am going to go ahead and post this announcement
> a little sooner than I'd planned.
You mean you gotta get some MONEY FAST, eh diannes?
Don't you know better than C-HOWENTING your puppies
pryor to whelping, diannes? Or do you think you'll
just GUARANTEE ANOTHER PUPPY to your WWW CUSTOMERS
who won't be gettin a pup THAT AIN'T EVEN BEEN BRED.
>I am pleased to announced that Patience (Ch.
>Nightwind Impulsive Shopper HI ATDd STDs CGC
>HOF) has come in season and will be bred next week
>to Peter (Ch. Deja Vu Aigner For Pete's Sake ROM).
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!
>I am currently interviewing prospective homes looking
>for the right people for these very special babies.
Well, that IS IMPRESSIVE, diannes.
>Patience is a sound, typey bitch with excellent reach
>and drive, a solid topline, nice proportions, good coat
>texture and an outgoing temperament.
That so?
> She easily finished her championship owner-handled.
You can put a Ch on nearly ANY THING if you SHOWE IT
enough or if you got the right CONNNECTIONS in the
EHTICKAL PUPPY MILLING BUSINESS who JUDGE shows...
like your ETHICKAL BREEDER, for EXXXAMPLE.
> She is also a fourth-generation working sheepdog
Oh, that's right. The Amazing Puppy Wizard ALMOST
FORGOT your stellar sheep hurtin CASE HISTORY.
> and has won multiple herding trials.
BWEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!
> At just two years of age she became one of the
> youngest dogs ever to qualify for the Briard Club
> of America Hall of Fame.
Is that bases on numbers of puppies she's whelped?
> She has one leg on her AKC Novice Agility title
> and is training for obedience and flyball competition
> as well.
BWEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHHAAA!!!
> My hope in breeding her to Peter is to improve
> upon her shoulders, head planes and eye color.
Well then diannes, PERHAPS you should START with
a dog that GOT the QUALITIES YOU WANT INSTEAD of
"breedin up" to AVOID FAULTS your dog GOT.
> Peter is a Register of Merit sire who has produced
> 18 champions to date, a number of group placers
> among them.
There's probably not MOORE than a couple hundred
Briards in the entire country, diannes... S-HOWENDS
like your ETHICKAL BREEDER is a PUPPY MILLER who
SHOWES dogs to HER ETHICKAL BREEDER who JUDGES Briards.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!
> His offspring have also consistantly inherited the
> outstanding movement, hips and sweet temperaments
> that the Deja Vu line is well-known for.
You mean the TRAITS you're TRYING TO GET in your line?
> While Peter himself is not a working dog,
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!
> he has been tested on sheep and demonstrated
> exceptional herding potential;
You mean he attacks them.
> he also has sired several pups who are now
> competing in herding, obedience and agility.
INDEED? S-HOWENDS like a puppy mill scam.
>Both Patience and Peter are beloved housepets and
>their kids will be raised underfoot and socialized
>extensively before placement with the hopes that they
>will become just as wonderful as their parents are.
YOU HURT INTIMDIATE and MURDER dogs, diannes.
<snip bunk>
> More information on this breeding can be found on my
> web page at http://weber.u.washington.edu/>~diannes/deschamps/
BWEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!
> Please be advised that BRIARDS ARE NOT FOR EVERYONE!
RIGHT. They're for APPROVED PUPPY BUYERS who'll S-HOWE
their puppies to SUPPORT their ETHICKAL BREEDER in the
ring... gettin a CHUMPionship competing amongst ONLY
YOUR OWN DOGS is EZ, ESPECIALLY when THEY SET THE
CRITTERIA, eh diannes?
Of curse a JUDGE CAN REFUSE to give a blue ribbon
if NO dog in the class DESERVES WON, but that ALMOST
NEVER happens, ESPECIALLY in such a RARE BREED as you
got.
> This is a large, energetic herding breed
> that is best for experienced dog owners.
Like yourself, diannes?
> They were bred to dominate large flocks of sheep
> and without guidance from a committed owner they
> are more than happy to dominate people as well.
THAT'S INSANE, diannes. THAT'S HOWE COME YOU HURT
INTIMDIATE and MURDER your own dogs, diannes.
> Prospective owners should be prepared take their puppies
> through at least2 or 3 formal obedience classes.
BWEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAA!!!
Hey diannes? DON'T YOU SELL CLASSES???
BWEEEEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!
> Briards also require daily exercise
ONLY IF THEY'RE HYPERACTIVE, diannes.
> and their long coats need approximately two hours
> of grooming every week. THIS IS NOT A LOW-MAINTENANCE
> BREED.
Well, that's SUBJECTIVE, diannes. PERHAPS it'd only
take you WON HOWER a week to groom your Briards if
you TRAINED them not to STRUGGLE and FIGHT you, bein
as DOMINANT as they tend to be, when ABUSED, diannes.
> For more information on whether a Briard would be an
> appropriate choice for your situation, please see:
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAA!!!
>The Briard Homepage http://weber.u.washington.edu/>~diannes/
>Briard Club of America web site
>http://www.akc.org/clubs/bca/
>
>The Briard FAQ http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/>briard.html
Hey diannes? Here's your punk thug coward mental
case pal from k9web.com:
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch Right,
Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They Have A Very
Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse Into A Heap.
About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep The Pressure Up"
sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM" mooreon.
> I do have a waiting list for pups from this breeding
That so? Is THAT HOWE COME you're SELLIN THEM HERE
on the WWW, diannes?
> but as a long-time contributor to rec. pets. dogs.*
You've got a VERY LONG CASE HISTORY of HURTING and
INTIMDIATING dogs and LYING abHOWET it. REMEMBER?
> feel trongly that responsible breeders have an obligation
> to demonstrate to prospective dog owners what a well-planned,
> thoughtful breeding looks like.
You mean MONEY. YOU SELL DOGS FOR MONEY, PROFIT, actually.
JUST LIKE HOWE HOWER "rescue and shelter" dog lovers GET
PAID to RESCUE and SHELTER and SELL the dogs they GOT A
WEE BIT OF MONEY to ACCEPT for SELLIN again <{); ~ ) >
> My primary purpose in posting this announcement
> is public education;
You mean you're A SPAMMER, diannes.
> however I also welcome inquiries from prospective adopters.
Let's talk abHOWET trainin your own dog not to ESCAPE?
> My preference is for working homes(obedience, herding,
> agility, therapy, SAR etc.)
Yeah, so you can SELL PUPPIES as "working" stock.
> and/or homes within a day's drive of Seattle, Washington.
SO YOU CAN BORROW THEM TO LOAD SHOWS SO YOU CAN GET POINTS.
>Interview & references are required;
BWEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!
> limited registration and spay/neuter contract
> required on all pets.
BWEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
>Thank you for letting me brag!
THANK YOU, diannes. The Amazing Puppy Wizard couldn't
IDENTIFY EXXXPOSE and DISCREDIT you withHOWET YOUR HEELP.
>Dianne dian...@u.washington.edu
From: dian...@u.washington.edu (dianne marie schoenberg)
Date: 19 Nov 2003 21:15:21 GMT
Subject: Re: 10 month old Labrador aggressive
Mike <m.bidd...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> This dog was not playing with my pup, he pinned him to
> the ground with teeth around his neck and then stomped
> on him as he rolled him over to get a better grip on
> his windpipe.
You don't know much about dog behavior, do you. That
*is* play behavior. If the dog had been truly aggressive
you would have had a hard time prying your pup out of
his mouth, and the pup would have punctures, broken
bones and/or internal injuries.
<snip>
Looks like you and your ETHICKAL BREEDERS are
a bunch of lying dog abusing punk thug coward
MENTAL CASES, Master Of Deception blankman.
> They won't know or care about improving and tracking
> breed health. Most scammers aren't dedicated to their
> fraud enough to invent false records in the registry,
> although that does happen.
CITES PLEASE?
> If a breeder can't be bothered providing and recording
> genetic health information then move on, to another breed
> if necessary.
If the breeder with LINE BRED stock for generation
after generation GOT NO PROLBLEMS they MIGHT NOT
HAVE any NEED for your PROOF of ETHICKAL BREEDIN.
> One one scam is to claim a breed has no problems,
> or the breeder's lines have no problems.
Well, that's certainly a SCAM, AIN'T IT.
> If you don't look, and you don't keep and SHARE
> comparable data that kind of claim is simply baseless.
You mean, like ALL YOUR "INFORMATION".
> Next - what is the breeder claiming the dogs
> have done to warrant being bred?
Oh? Like your PAL dianne s stated? NUTHIN. IN
FACT, she's BREEDIN UP to IMPROVE her stock.
> If it isn't something with at least rudimentary
> objective standards,
You mean like OBEDIENCE and WORKIN titles like lying
frosty dahl and dianne s advertise? HOWE abHOWET jerkin
and chokin your own dog arHOWEND a sheep pen and beatin
IT in the face with a stick?
> move on to the next breeder.
You mean, LIKE ~EMILY?:
I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?
"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.
No different tune," ~Emily
> Every breed should have qualities that can be judged objectively -
You mean, JUDGED BY DOG ABUSING MENTAL CASES like yourself?
> or at least with SOME objectivity,
You mean, someWON who AIN'T MAKIN MONEY off of SELLIN pups?
> so that there is record of more than the breeder's belief
> (earnest or otherwise) with regard to those qualities.
BWEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAHHAAA!!!
YOUR ETHCKAL BREEDERS ARE LIARS AND DOG ABUSING PUNK
THUG COWARD ACTIVE ACUTE LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL
CASES, like yourself, Master Of Deception blankman,
goin by their own POSTED CASE HISTORIES, like yours.
> Get the information on which organizatiosn have evaluated
> those qualities, then contact the organizations about how
> to verify the information. For example, if a breeder claims
> both sire and dam have AKC conformation championships, that
> information can be checked.
You think so?
> If a breeder claims stellar performance in USBCHA
> herding, that information can be verified.
BWEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!
Let's DON'T GO THERE today, Master Of Deception
blankman, this post is already long enough.
> There are any number of things a breeder might use
> to evaluate breeding quality based on OBJECTIVE
> standards,
Oh? You mean, like TITLES and WORKING ABILITY,
like SAR work, FOR EXXXAMPLE?:
From: Lynn K. (java...@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Free Feeding (Was Re: Repeating Commands)
Date: 2001-07-17 21:59:53 PST
dogstar...@aol.com (DogStar716) wrote in message
<news:20010717101836...@ng-mi1.aol.com>...
> For example, if one was to use the dogs regular
> kibble as a motivator in class, the dog will probably
> not be as motivated as he would be if a different type
> of treat was offered (say, a piece of hotdog).
Not necessarily. Remember that there is value added
to the treat by virtue of getting it from the handler as a
reward.
That's the reason I handfed Java for a week.
To add value to the food.
It isn't just another piece of kibble when it
comes from Mom as a reward.
Lynn K.
From: Lynn K. (java...@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Kali gets her CDX!
Date: 2003-10-26 13:49:37 PST
"KrisHur" <kris_br...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
<news:vpnufui...@corp.supernews.com>...> THANKS!
You deserve it! You have my empathy on the heeling
problem. 2 of 29 qualified in Open A & B this morning
at Sacramento - ring fouled overnight by conformation
people exercising their dogs.
A Borzoi vomited on the spot, a Rottie peed on it, and
almost every other dog (including Java) dropped their
nose to the spot and started tracking.
ARRRGH!
Lynn K.
"Just as he thinks my decision not to put a
dog that faded in the heat into active SAR
duty was somehow questionable."
"my decision to not continue with an
unmotivated dog and potentially risk
lives is hardly something I view as a failure.
So, does your dog BURN HOWET in the
heat on accHOWENT of he's SO HIGHLY
MOTIVATED or is he UNTRAINED?
Date: 2004-07-28 23:53:48 PST
HOWEDY lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn,
"Lynn K." <java...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:37cd72a9.04072...@posting.google.com...
> "Juanita" <JJMo...@nospam.worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:
> > Well, dawgy, we're still waaaaiting . . . !!!
> > Please show us this proof. Or at least give
> > us a time frame in which to expect it--it's
> > been almost two days, so a week? Two
> > weeks? A month? What? I have other
> > things to do with my life
> And the rest of us don't have better things to
> do than waste time answering your demand
> for proof about Jerry's libelous statements?
Right. You're too busy working your SELECTIVELY
BRED HAND PICKED and TESTED SAR dog JIVE.
> FWIW, my dogs aren't crated and don't wear
> electronic, prong, chain or any other form of
> training collar and have never been struck or
> hurt in any way.
Of curse not!
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears
Retribution Will Adore His Owner."
> (Java had an e-collar on at a
> snake-proofing clinic 6 years ago.)
That's QUEER, ain't it. You can't shock collar
snake proof a dog unless the dog has been
conditioned to the collar for a week or two
before and after the "training."
> Java doesn't "earn top scores" in the obedience ring.
That's right. He balks at directed retrieves
and rushes for the first object so he won't
get hurt somMOORE.
> though I'm happy with his titles there, as elsewhere.
You're real prHOWED of his SAR work too,
despite his early retirement before ever working.
> That includes his herding titles, which Jerry
> seems to think he somehow failed at.
QUEER AIN'T IT that you've never posted them.
Last we seen of little bo peep she was trying to
get JIVE under CONtroll in the field when he was
HOWETA REACH of gettin jerked and choked.
He KNOWS he ain't wearin his shock collar so
he don't gotta FEAR that. You and Master Of
Deception blankman have the same problems
with your HOWETA CON-TROLL dogs scaring
sheepses.
> Just as he thinks my decision not to put a
> dog that faded in the heat into active SAR
> duty was somehow questionable.
That so? Seems JIVE don't fade at
sheep trials, IN FACT, he's HOWETA
CON-TROLL. Ain't he.
> I've never run a shelter,
"My last paying "job" was as Exec. Dir.
of the local Humane Society,"
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
---------------------------------
> find out what is relevant for the breed.
BWEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!
> Next, what is the level of concern from the breeder
> about who you are and what you plan to do with the
> dog,
HOWER ETHICKAL BREEDERS RESTRICT RIGHTS TO THEIR STOCK:
YOUR PUNK THUG COWARD MENTAL CASE PAL dianne s. SEZ:
"limited registration and spay/neuter contract
required on all pets."
NHOWE, does THAT MEAN "PETS" as in NOT SHOW
QUALITY STOCK, Master Of Deception blankman,
or does THAT MEAN "PETS" that are SOLD to
NON SHOWE and breedin HOWESES?
> and whether you and the dog are suited to each other?
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHHAA!!!
> The less concern from the breeder the bigger the
> red flag. Does the breeder have someone local who
> will be checking out YOUR claims?
You mean, like HOWE your SHELTER and RESCUE pals
tara o. aka tee, elegy, flick, suja, racetrack
silly and company?
THEY'RE LYING DOG ABUSING IGNORAMUSES, like yourself,
Master Of Deception blankman <{); ~ ) >
BWEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHHAHHAHAAA!!!
> Or is the breeder only interested in the $$$$ you will be sending?
Well, that IS HOWE you make your money "NETWORKING",
AIN'T IT, Master Of Deception blankman?
> Has the breeder bred before? And if so where are those
> dogs now? And what are they doing? Are any local enough
> that you can meet the dogs and talk to the people who have
> them? Dogs in most competive fields can be checked
> out either on line or through the sanctioning organization.
BWEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!
> What are the breeder's terms? What is the rememdy if the
> dog turns out at age 3 to have a genetic health issue that
> might result in blindness, or lameness, or some other burdensome
> condition?
Oh? You mean STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE
aka The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME, Master Of Deception
blankman? THAT'S CAUSED BY ABUSE, not BREEDING.
> If the breeder requires return of the dog,
You mean for DEFECTIVE dogs that a buyer would
ask the breeder to REPLACE? AIN'T IT ONLY FAIR
that the owner RETURN the STOCK for REPLACEMENT?
> then look elsewhere.
Like maybe to a ETHICKAL breeder like your pals?
> If the breeder will ONLY provide a replacement
> puppy, then look elsewhere.
You're REPEATIN yourself again, Master Of Deception
blankman. THAT MEANS you're runnin HOWETA SMOKE to
blow up HOWER collective arses <{); ~ ) >
> What will the breeder do if some unforseen circumstance
> means you can't keep the dog, and it is now 3 years old?
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!
You think the BREEDER is RESPONSIBLE for the buyer's future?
PERHAPS the ETHICKAL BREEDER should MOTHER his puppy
buyers so they don't HAVE to PAY a SHELTER or RESCUE
dog lover like your punk thug coward mental case pals
to TAKE THEIR PROBLEM DOGS?
> If the breeder will do nothing, look elsewhere.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHHAHAHAA!!!
SUPPOSE your ETHICKAL BREEDER AIN'T GOT NO MOORE ROOM
in her HOWES, Master Of Deception blankman? Do your
ETHICKAL BREEDER PALS INSURE THEY GOT SPACE TO ACCEPT
RETURNS, Master Of Deception blankman?
> If you have only been looking for a dog since this morning
> then you will indeed have a hard time finding a good quality
> breeder. To get a good breeder usualy means taking the time
> to network through discussion groups,
BWEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHHAHAA!!!
HE JUST DONE THAT, and LUCKY FOR HIM he done
it PRYOR to gettin hooked up with your ETHICKAL
BREEDER pals who choke shock crate mutilate bribe
intimdiate and MURDER innocent critters like HOWE
you and your punk thug coward mental case pals do.
> personal contacts, breed clubs etc. It means
> building a relationship of trust.
Well then, YOU'VE SAID IT ALL, haven't you.
> There are far more bad breeders than good ones.
That so?
> That is why we kill milliions of dogs a year.
NO. YOU and your punk thug coward mental case
pals who jerk choke shock crate bribe surgically
sexually MUTILATE intimidate and murder dogs are
the RESPONSIBLE parties, Master Of Deception
blankman.
> People are more interested in getting what they want
> NOW than in avoiding contributing to the problem.
That so?
> Good breeders are good in part because they produce FEW dogs.
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!
WHAT KINDA LOGIC IS THAT?
> There are plenty of wonderful dogs in rescue and shelters.
THANKS TO YOU AND YOUR ETHICKAL BREEDERS and "shelter and
rescue" dog lovers, Master Of Deception blankman <{); ~ ) >
> If they don't meet your needs at least take care not
> to deal with the kinds of breeders whose dogs end up there.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!
> --
> Diane Blackman
<SNIP SPAM LINKS>
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWWWAWHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
> > > Jerome Bigge writes:
> > > I do know that hitting, hurting your dog will often
> > > make the dog either aggressive or a fear biter,
> > > neither of which we want to do.
> > And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> > No matter what Jerry Howe states.
> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> > You're scary Marilyn.
> > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual.
> > I feel very sorry for her and her family. BUT,
> > giving you the benefit of the doubt, please
> > provide a quote (an original quote, not from
> > one of Jerry Howe's heavily edited diatribes)
> > that shows a regular poster promoting or using
> > an abusive form of training.
> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Is that true, Marilyn?
Of course not~ but THIS IS:
captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
Resounding Sound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
From: sionnach (rhyfe...@email.msn.com)
Subject: Re: Correct use of prong collar
Date: 2001-05-05 13:03:14 PST
> And Sally responded:
> >Who said that? I would never do or recommend that, and
> >neither would most of the regulars on here.
> >Sally Hennessey
> I've posted my entire quote, since Patch failed to do so.
> Tke it out of context and you'd think I was flinging puppies
> across the room!
> here's what I said (keep in mind that we're talking about a
> 12 week old ~25# FCR puppy):
> A small scruff shake is appropriate if he's
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> very persistant.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Um, may I suggest a re-wording that might make
it clearer-given that "scruff shake" is too easily
misinterpreted as "pick the puppy up by the scruff
of the neck and shake the puppy in the air"?
I think I'd phrase it something like "if the puppy is very
persistant, it can be appropriate to take hold of the loose
skin at the back of the neck and give a slight shake to
the *skin*".
Janet's not talking about actually shaking the puppy,
which I think we ALL agree is abusive.
Aggression, Opposition And Allelomimetic Behavior -
Teaching RESPECT For Your HIGHER INTELLIGENCE -
"BAD DOG ALWAYS WORKS!!!"
Here's professor SCRUFF SHAKE:
Mine will go "bonkers" if he has been exercise deprived.
From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: new puppy bitting/chewing hands
Date: 1999/07/05
In article
<976F54CA8C2C77AB.9DF245927D0DAB8B.90BA464FE454E...@lp.airnews.net
> Jason <asl...@removethisline.geocities.com> writes:
:
> I would assume that all puppies like to bite and chew
> on just about anything. How do you train a young
> puppy NOT to chew on hands and feet? Although
> there is a time and place for saying 'no' and giving
> the dog a scruff shake I do no know if this is appropriate
> at this age.
At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral
function. But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy
by its neck and shake it a bit, and the frequency
of the biting decreases then you will have achieved
too things.
First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has
decreased; and two, you have established "No"
as a conditioned punisher.
How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted biting.
When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before
mild forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's
mouth closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad
Dog" came before stronger punishement (the
kind discussed above).
My dog is about 1.5 years old. "No" is usually
sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog" to
stop a behavior.
"Bad Dog" ALWAYS works.
then, of course, quickly say "Good Dog" when
he is appropriately behaving.
In providing verbal punishment and reinforcement
as in using nonverbal punishement and reinforcement,
timing is very important.
Use these consquences to control behavior much
as in the game where a child is told "your getting hot"
or "your getting cold." If the delay between the behavior
and the consquence is too long then the behavior will
not appropriately change.
--Marshall
From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Update on Puppy Biting
Date: 1999/06/14
In article <37675817.19034...@news3.bga.com>
clayn@NO_JUNKdillonet.com
writes:
:
> My previous thread seems to have deteriorated
> off topic, but I would still like some input on
> biting and aggressive behavior. To recount I
> have a Chow/Lab mix who is now 9 weeks old.
> The biggest problem I had with him is biting.
:
> This could have been when petting him, walking
> by, or when playing. This seems to be his way of
> playing or getting attention, but it can drive me nuts.
> To stop this I've distracted with chew toys,
Distraction can be a BIG mistake! Why? Because if
your manipulation of the chew toy is reinforcing then
you are inadvertently reinforcing your dog for biting if
you follow his biting with activating the chew toy.
The standard way to curtail biting is to either "yelp
loudly," "clamp the dog's mouth shut with your hand,"
or "pick him up by the scruff of his neck" and say "no"
whenever he bites.
All of these are punishment procedures and
to work they must be put into place promptly,
within say .5 sec, after the bite.
Isolating the dog after a bite is another form
of punishment called time-out (from reinforcement
but it is hard to rapidly implement--within .5
sec of a bite.
If one of these procedures does not work, that is,
your dog behaves as if it were a game, then you
are not using an effective punisher/procedure.
> I said NO, and failing that put him in my room
> alone for a few min. When in there he barks
> and whines, but afterwards behaves much better.
> After about a week of this the biting has decreased
> remarkably, but hasn't stopped outright. Still does it
> when he gets into hyper Puppy Jihad mode.
Well, be patient.
You can, of course, use differential reinforcement
of other behavior to eliminate biting. If there is a
situation in which your dog often bites. then create
the situation and if your dog goes without biting for
1 sec. offer a reinforcer (click and treat if you use
a clicker).
Then gradually increase the time that your dog
must go without biting for the reinforcer to be
delivered. Eventually, your dog will not bite and
the other behaviors that you have been reinforcing
will be more frequent.
Another factor to consider is whether your dog
is getting sufficient exercise.
Mine will go "bonkers" if he has been exercise deprived.
Best wishes,
Marshall
=========================
> Date: 1999/07/05
> Marshall Dermer wrote:
>> In article
<976F54CA8C2C77AB.9DF245927D0DAB8B.90BA464FE454E...@lp.airnews.net
> Jason <asl...@removethisline.geocities.com> writes:
>> > I would assume that all puppies like to bite and chew
>> > on just about anything. How do you train a young
>> > puppy NOT to chew on hands and feet? Although
>> > there is a time and place for saying 'no'
SHORE!~ If you want the dog to OPPOSE you.
>> > and giving the dog a scruff shake I do no
>> > know if this is appropriate at this age.
We shove fingers dHOWEN puppy's throats to choke
them HOWETA mHOWETHING from the time they're
in the litter box, ACCORDING TO lying frosty dahl,
sindy SADIST mooreon, lyingdogDUMMY, lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn, ed w of PET LOSS dot CON,
and company.
Hello doc,
You seem to be real good with all the big words
and stuff, but you are failing dog behavior 101.
The obvious negative consequences of
the abusive advice you have given Jason
is likely to have a major negative impact
on his dog and his family as a result of
your failure to understand what we have
been discussing here.
>> At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral
>> function. But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy
>> by its neck and shake it a bit, and the frequency
>> of the biting decreases then you will have achieved
>> too things.
This will achieve violating the trust and respect you
need to develop to make your dog NATURALLY
WANTdo anything you ask. The MonkeysofNotso
NewSkeete are a bunch of heavy handed gorillas
when it comes to dog training.
Their methods are barbaric and outdated by current
information. But they do have a nicely edited text with
lots of pretty pictures. They specialize in GSD's, a
breed known to tolerate heavy handed treatment from
their owners.
>> First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has
>> decreased; and two, you have established "No"
>> as a conditioned punisher.
Not necessarily, doc. Allelomimetic behavior dictates
the dog will copy your actions and attitudes.
Remember?
What you are teaching the dog is HOWE you want him
to respond back to you in the future. People who abuse
their dogs as puppies usually face aggressive challenges
when the dog is more mature.
Are you going to have some good suggestions if
the dog decides to do that with one of Jason's kids
WON day?
That's what you'd be responsible for...
That's HOWE COME I'm here.
Seems to me that a dog trainer who needs to resort
to fear, force, intimidation and confrontation is hardly
able to outsmart the cunning of the domestic puppy dog.
Nice work getting your degree, but cause you pay the
price doesn't insure you're able to use your head. You
do seem to be a lazy student, though.
>> How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
>> minimum necessary to
TEACH GENTLENESS, LOVE, TRUST
and RESPECT, professor?
To DEMONSTRATE SELF DISCIPLINE, professor?
>> decrease the unwanted biting.
Nothin you suggest is acceptable under
ANY circumstances. Violence is not
subjective. We do not quantify HOWE
much abuse we shall administer today.
That is sick and disgusting.
Furthermore, a human being is not a mother dog. We
cannot compete with them on their level effectively. Mom
dogs abuse their puppies just like HOWE they're taught
by their abusive moms and handlers. Puppy bitches
CHALLENGE and FIGHT with mom and sibling bitches.
That's all part of NATURE'S PLAN to prevent inbreeding.
>> When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before
>> mild forms of punishment
And your dog is NHOWE DYING ON YOU
as a RESULT of the constant stress of
varialbly reinforced punishment.
>> (I would hold my dog's mouth closed for a few seconds.)
To teach it to RELAX, TRUST and NOT TO GRAB you...
>> whereas "Bad Dog" came
>From your fear, anger, ignorance, descartean
university trainin and colossal ego, professor.
>> before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).
The kind of PUNISHMENT that teaches unconditional
love, gentleness trust and RESPECT for your HIGHER
INTELLIGENCE, LEADERSHIP, CARING, and your
measure of self control and confidence, professor?
In the past thirty years of my professional dog training
career, punishment has not ever been used on any of
the dogs I've worked.
Punishment causes misery. Misery causes aversion to
the handler, not the behavior. The dog will not want to
be the best he can for you under punitive situations.
Confrontation, physical force, intimidation cause
STRESS and ANXIETY which are not conducive
to the learning situation. They may result in similar
symptoms to post traumatic stress disorder.
>> My dog is about 1.5 years old. "No" is usually sufficient
>> but sometimes I use "Bad Dog" to stop a behavior. "Bad
>> Dog" ALWAYS works.
Yeah. It's causes Maxie to have OCD'S and LIFE
THREATENING, STRESS INDUCED AUTO-
IMMUNE DIS-EASE aka The Puppy Wizard's
SYNDROME.
>> I then, of course, quickly say "Good Dog"
>> when he is appropriately behaving.
You mean, AFTER THE FACT.
My dogs never do things requiring discipline, they
have obviated those behaviors through the process
of learning, not through the process of being corrected.
People who use force and confrontation on their dogs
are constantly having to address behavior problems
that manifest as a result of the punished behavior being
trainsferred to other substitute behaviors.
That's one of the many subtitles of dog behavior
the good doc needs to learn a little more about.
>> In providing verbal punishment and reinforcement
>> as in using nonverbal punishement and reinforcement,
>> timing is very important.
Timing is everything. There is never any time that
punishment is justifiable. Not ever. It is unnecessary
and creates other behavior problems when it does
not work.
Your risk of causing the dog to turn on its owners
by the age of eighteen months is roughly ten percent.
Those are the dogs that I work with very often. Their
stories are all the same. The people followed the advice
of the Monks or Koehler and used all the group classes
for months to control escalating malbehaviors and pushed
it to the point where the dog is aggressive with the family.
I'm F'n tired of seeing that happen.
That's HOWE COME I'm here.
I'm here to tell you you got another think coming.
You are dead wrong and dogs and people die
unnecessarily as a result of those kinds of handling
methods.
>> Use these consquences to control behavior much
>> as in the game where a child is told "your getting
>> hot" or "your getting cold." If the delay between the
>> behavior and the consquence is too long then the
>> behavior will not appropriately change.
Your getting colder. You've got time, stick around,
maybe some good information will rub off on you.
>> --Marshall
>> I have listed below, in rank order, ( 1 = "The Best")
>> my favorite sources.
That will serve as an INDICTMENT of their INFORMATION.
Is it any wonder that the following sig file has
generated more complaints to my personal
email than any other controversial post I have
made to date, bar none?:
If you have to do things to your dog to train him,
that you would rather not have to do, then you
shouldn't be doing them. If you have a dog trainer
that tells you to jerk your dog around, shock, or
punish him in any manner, that corrections are
appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the
punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or
they can't train your dog to do what you want, look
for a trainer that knows Howe.
1. Overall, K. L. (1997). _Clinical behavioral medicine for small
animals._ St.Louis: Mosby
Professor Overall has earned many degrees (MS,
VMD, PhD) and is certified by the Animal Behavior
Society as an Applied Animal Behaviorist.
See "Hole Diggin."
2. Diane Blackman's Fun with Your Dog:
Diane has compiled "tons" of information about dogs.
This work in progress reveals Diane's tremendous love
and respect for dogs.
Master Of Deception blankman is a liar and dog
abuser and active long term incurable MENTAL
CASE. She beats her dog in the face with a
shepherd's crook and jerks and chokes them
on pronged spiked pinch choke collars and shocks
and sprays aversives in their faces.
3. Prof.Mark Plonsky's Fabulous Site:
Mark's site has won numerous awards. It is VERY complete.
Yeah. He's your associate at UofWI. His site endorses
the most viciHOWES methods on the WWW.
4. Frequently Asked Questions
Cindy Tittle Moore has written the "classic" Usenet source for
information about pets.
sindy SADIST mooreon has been banned from two
obedience clubs. Only redeemin quality she's got
is SHE DOESN'T LIE to DEFEND HER ABUSE.
She sez NUTHIN and continues HURTIN dogs
with her PARTNER lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
5. Karen Pryor's Web Site:
Discover clicker training and training resources.
Clicker training is apositive approach!
karen pryor KILLED HER KAT cause she couldn't
C/T it not to piss and shit in her stove top. Clicker
training INCREASES ANXIETY and can cause
OCD behavior problems AND seizures, adn FAILS
10% of the time soon as the animal can find access
to FOOD.
Also check out this URL for more on clicker training:
6. Gary Wilkes's Click & Treat Web Site:
Much excellent training information.
Yeah? You was highly impressed with gary's new
development: "DELAYED PUNISHMENT".
Here's your FREE copy of The Amazing Puppy
Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?G 34D2527A
Just ASK The Amazing Puppy Wizard if you
need any additional FREE heelp. There's NO
arbritrary INFORMATION in your FREE copy
of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual so
study it well and do and follow ALL the
EXXXERCISES AS INSTRUCTED... it's a
PRECISE SCIENCE or it COULDN'T GET 100%
CONSISTENT NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS for
all handlers and all dogs in all fields
or utilities and behaviors all over the
Whole Wild World <{) ; ~ ) >
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:41:01 -0500
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D."
<drv...@mindspring.com>
Subject: "time-out"
Dan, my own firm hatred of punishment has
recently been intensified by meeting The
Puppy Wizard, Jerry Howe, whose work with
dogs is marvelous.
There is a literature on harms caused by time
out, and perhaps you'd like to look at
http://www.dogydoright.com
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
"As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there
is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving
care."
George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com
To: <d...@arcane-computing.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Doggy advice
Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below.
I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's
habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWEING everything.
I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his
way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest
fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very
competent at living with dogs.
I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found
on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about
dogs doing this and that, for example:
whining,
humping, hunching,
pacing,
self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking,
spinning,
prolonged barking, barking at shadows,
overstimulated barking,
fighting, bullying other dogs,
compulsive digging,
compulsive scratching,
compulsive chewing,
frantic behavior,
chasing light, chasing shadow,
stealing food,
digging in garbage can,
loosing house (toilet) training.
inappropriate fearfulness
aggression.
The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who
graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of
the intervening time working with animals (including the
human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors in wild
dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even see these behaviors
in hyenas (who aren't dog related).
You see these behaviors in human managed animals,
especially animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans.
As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there is no treatment
more useful for dogs than tender loving care.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine
Chris Tsao
Thanks for taking the time to provide me with all this info. I shall
now save it in a file in Works so I can keep referring to it and in
case I need to forward it to my friends and relatives who are helping
me look for a cocker spaniel.
Chris
YourConscience
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHHAHHAHAAA!!!
Janet Puistonen
In addition to the excellent advice you have already received, if you are
looking for a specific breed, you should go through the AKC site to find
their national breed club, which will lead you to regional breed clubs.
Virtually all regional breed clubs have a puppy referral contact. That
person will know about litters that are either already born, or going to be
soon. All litters won't be listed with them, but many will be. Members in
good standing of a breed club are more likely--not certain, but more
likely--to be the kind of breeder you want to deal with. And some regional
breed club web sites have links to web sites of their members.