Good Pit = Aggressive Pit
Jonna Miettinen
:The average
:Rotti can probably do more damage to a human than the average pit
bull.
Do you have any idea which dog bite most? It's the sweet Dalmatians.
:I'd rather have a pit with
:defense drives than one that was bred to be a gambling tool and be
dog
:aggressive.
Why on earth do you even want a pit, if you are not going to have a
good one?
American Pit Bull Terrier has been breeded for maybe hudreds of years
to be NOT humanaggressive, but to be dogaggressive. It´s is NOT in
it´s geenes to have "defence drives".
:A dog aggressive dog is really a useless dog.
Once again, what do you really want? The whole idea of having a Pit Bull is that is it dogaggressive!
:Protection
:training does not mean turning a dog into an indiscriminate killer.
Proper
:training channels the dog's instincts. The dog learns how to
respond to a
:sitch and what is a proper response and what is not. Killing
dogs is not the
:answer. Responsible ownership is the answer.
And one more issue, Pit Bull is NOT to be trained for protection! It´s not in it´s geenes, but fighting is. Why to protect when the best protection is to attact?
- Jonna Miettinen
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OldDgs
I REALLY hope that you aren't attributing any of the stuff
you replied to ,to ME. Since I didn't make ANY of the statements
that you replied to.
VegasPits
>:I'd rather have a pit with<BR>
>:defense drives than one that was bred to be a gambling tool and be dog<BR>
>:aggressive.<BR>
><BR>
>Why on earth do you even want a pit, if you are not going to have a good<BR>
>one?<BR>
>American Pit Bull Terrier has been breeded for maybe hudreds of years to<BR>
>be NOT humanaggressive, but to be dogaggressive.
I am probably gonna hear it for this one BUT.......A good pit is only one that
is dog aggressive? I think that is just a matter of opinion and what you are
going to be using the beloved breed for. And not all were bred to be dog
aggressive.
>Once again, what do you really want? The whole idea of having a Pit Bull<BR>
>is that is it dogaggressive!<
Once again, depends on what purpose you are using the breed for......if it is
to be thrown into the "pit" or into supervised "matches" maybe but if you have
a APBT that is dog aggressive and try to breed companion dogs for households
where they are not the only dog OR if you want to show them in the UKC ring
THEY CAN NOT BE DOG AGGRESSIVE AND ARE NOT!!
>And one more issue, Pit Bull is NOT to be trained for protection! It愀<BR>
>not in it愀 geenes, but fighting is.
I think you might need to do a little more research.....becuase a pit's
"gameness" it can excell at just about anything from protection to herding to
tracking to therapy dogs, etc etc etc.........It is not in their "genes"
necessarily to fight otherwise there wouldn't be so many that are "put down" or
left for dead for NOT fighting or losing a fight.
Vegas Kennels
http://www.VegasKennels.com
Strife
In article <199804091912...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, vega...@aol.com
says...
>I am probably gonna hear it for this one BUT.......A good pit is only one that
>is dog aggressive? I think that is just a matter of opinion and what you are
>going to be using the beloved breed for. And not all were bred to be dog
>aggressive.
Not commenting on the breeding part since I am not a breeder and know nothing
about breeding, I do agree with you on the rest of this.
>
>>Once again, what do you really want? The whole idea of having a Pit Bull<BR>
>>is that is it dogaggressive!<
>
>Once again, depends on what purpose you are using the breed for......if it is
>to be thrown into the "pit" or into supervised "matches" maybe
agree with you here and just to say the only reason to have a Pit Bull *is NOT*
because it is dog aggressive this is a part of their history yes (as it is many
other breeds as well) and something that has to be accepted as a possibility
of owning one, but they also make wonderful companions. Only those that want
to utilize dog aggressiveness for specific purposes (of which I don't agree
with under any circumstance) would make that the "whole idea" of having one.
I have Majyck because she is all I could ever want and ask for in a companion,
do I accept that she may become dog aggressive(she is not right now)- yes, but
is that the reason I got her- not at all!
> but if you have
>a APBT that is dog aggressive and try to breed companion dogs for households
>where they are not the only dog OR if you want to show them in the UKC ring
>THEY CAN NOT BE DOG AGGRESSIVE AND ARE NOT!!
I don't fully agree with this, I would say they *may not* be dog aggressive,
but as with APBT's, Akitas, and many other breeds it is a possibility you have
to be aware of and watch out for. Also, dog aggressive has nothing to do with
how good of a companion a dog will be to humans.
>
>>And one more issue, Pit Bull is NOT to be trained for protection! It愀<BR>
>>not in it愀 geenes, but fighting is.
>
>I think you might need to do a little more research.....becuase a pit's
>"gameness" it can excell at just about anything from protection to herding to
>tracking to therapy dogs, etc etc etc.........It is not in their "genes"
>necessarily to fight otherwise there wouldn't be so many that are "put down"
or
>left for dead for NOT fighting or losing a fight.
Not sure what is meant by this and seeing as I don't know anything about
protection training I will leave this to others to respond to.
>Vegas Kennels
Kim and Majyck the APBT of Love
>http://www.VegasKennels.com
Mrc5555
>..becuase a pit's
>"gameness" it can excell at just about anything from protection to herding
>to
>tracking to therapy dogs, etc etc etc.........It is not in their "genes"
>necessarily to fight otherwise there wouldn't be so many that are "put down"
>or
>left for dead for NOT fighting or losing a fight.
I am glad that you explained the term "gameness" because I was really wondering
myself what it specifically referred to. You are talking about a dog's desire
to please or serve or perform it's intended task. So, in the examples you
write above, the desire of the dog to be versatile is what really determines
the "gameness" or what I would call a positive quality.
The misuse of a breed (as is many times the case with this breed) is what
causes a bad public perception. That type of thing happened to the Doberman
many years ago, where the fallacy was that they were mean dogs, because you
would find them used as junkyard dogs or similar. When actually, they are a
very sweet breed. Many dogs have the physical strength or the tools to be a
problem, whether to humans or other dogs, so it seems to be more of a case of
programming the dog to act in a specific manner.
Now, in the webpages and posts where the words "gamebred" are used, I
understand that the source has to be considered. In some of the ads that were
cited, it sure seems as though "gamebred" might be associated with a dog
fighting type of activity or could it just be that the desire is to have a
"macho" dog?
Marc
AVRAMA GINGOLD
S> > but if you have
S> >a APBT that is dog aggressive and try to breed companion dogs for household
S> >where they are not the only dog OR if you want to show them in the UKC ring
S> >THEY CAN NOT BE DOG AGGRESSIVE AND ARE NOT!!
Many breeds tend to be same sex aggressive. Aggressive refers to
an attitudinal quality. All of these breeds can be shown in
AKC or UKC shows, depending on registry. They must not
demonstrate aggression by attempting to attack another dog
in the ring, but that is another matter.
I own an intact male Doberman, a breed in which same sex
aggressiveness, especially among males, is common. In
the show ring, all this means is that the males do tend
to look especially alert and stallion-ish, because of the
presence of other males (plus, of course, liver in the
hand of the AKC handler). In real life, what does having a
very same-sex aggressive dog mean? Okay--first of all,
even if I had the room, I'd be unlikely to opt for two
males. They can be controlled, but it is a lot easier
when it is not necessary. Secondly, as part of the
basic necessity to train ANY dog, I include in my male's
training the command IGNORE, which means that he may
not--must not--respond to the presence or challenge of
another male. (He does give me a look that asks, "Can't
I kill him, just a little bit, please," but that's all.)
Guess what--it works. It has nothing to do with his
attitude towards children (people puppies made small so
it is easy to lick their faces), adults (designed with
hands to pat him), or anything else. It does mean that
for convenience--mine--I don't take him to the dog run
where other males congregate.
Aggressiveness is attitudinal and temperamental.
Aggressive actions (fighting) are behavioral, and
behaviors can be controlled readily by training and
education.
avrama & shomer
avr...@moondog.com
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] No faith has never been broken, except that of a dog.
M1stic24
VERY WELL SAID. Thank you so much for bringing some intelligence to this
newsgroup discussion on APBTs.>Aggressiveness is attitudinal and temperamental.
CCCPUPS
>>Aggressive actions (fighting) are behavioral, and<BR>
>>behaviors can be controlled readily by training and<BR>
>>education.<BR>
><BR>
I agree with you that aggressive action - fighting - is behavioral, and that
behavior can be changed if you work long and hard at it. What I don't think
you can change is the instinctual part of this behavior - the unwillingness to
back down from a challenge - which may be innate in some dogs, the way
birdiness is innate in a good bird dog, or the desire to scent in a good hound
dog, or the desire to herd in a good herding dog...
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Charlotte Creeley<BR>
http://members.aol.com/cccpups/index.html
AVRAMA GINGOLD
M> VERY WELL SAID. Thank you so much for bringing some intelligence to this
M> newsgroup discussion on APBTs.>Aggressiveness is attitudinal and temperament
M> >Aggressive actions (fighting) are behavioral, and
M> >behaviors can be controlled readily by training and
M> >education.
M>
Thank you. I've been trying for years to get people to
understand the difference between attitudes and behaviors
in their dogs.
Oh, by the bye for anyone who hasn't guessed by now, I am
owned by a Dobe, not an APBT or AmStaff or Staffie.
avrama & shomer
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] An ounce of image is worth a pound of performance.
Jonna Miettinen
VegasPits wrote:
>American Pit Bull Terrier has been breeded for maybe hudreds of years to<BR>
>be NOT humanaggressive, but to be dogaggressive.
No way. But the best ones are. :o)I am probably gonna hear it for this one BUT.......A good pit is only one that
is dog aggressive?
I think that is just a matter of opinion and what you are
going to be using the beloved breed for. And not all were bred to be dog
aggressive.
You mean like AmStaffs??? In case you still mean Pit Bulls, you´re
absolutely right. There are - from the most points of viewers - two lines
of Pits:1) for the use of it - in this case you shurely understand that
I mean dogfighting
2) for the looks of it - and this must be close to your heart.
show them in the UKC ring
THEY CAN NOT BE DOG AGGRESSIVE AND ARE NOT!!
Yep. I kind of thought you were going to say that. That´s why there is also ADBA.
It is not in their "genes"
necessarily to fight otherwise there wouldn't be so many that are "put down" or
left for dead for NOT fighting or losing a fight.
I was talking about _only_the_good_ones!!!!!
Jonna Miettinen
Strife wrote:
Not commenting on the breeding part since I am not a breeder and know nothing
about breeding, I do agree with you on the rest of this.
Breeder of what?
agree with you here and just to say the only reason to have a Pit Bull *is NOT*
because it is dog aggressive this is a part of their history yes (as it is many
other breeds as well) and something that has to be accepted as a possibility
of owning one, but they also make wonderful companions.
What the heck are you talking about!!! A part of their history??? Read
a book, my friend and do get back to this discussion!!! Or visithttp://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbt.html
and learn something!
Only those that want
to utilize dog aggressiveness for specific purposes (of which I don't agree
with under any circumstance) would make that the "whole idea" of having one.
Oh my God you are so stupid! Get out of here!!! "specific purposes"... kiss my pretty ass!!!
You really have no clue what so ever what my whole point was. So shut up.
- J
Jonna Miettinen
AVRAMA GINGOLD wrote:
In real life, what does having a
very same-sex aggressive dog mean?
A good pit is aggressive towards all sexs.
Aggressiveness is attitudinal and temperamental.
Aggressive actions (fighting) are behavioral, and
behaviors can be controlled readily by training and
I guestion this very highly. From my point of view, there is no fun having a pit (or any other dog for that matter) whose actions are always predictible. Isn't it boring? I have nothing against a good trained dog, but for the pet - there is a limit.education.
K9gods
:What the heck are you talking about!!! A part of their :history??? Read a
book, my
:friend and do get back to this discussion!!! Or
:visithttp://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbt.html
:and learn something!
Okay, Jonna, honey--
Take a deep breath, calm yourself, and explain
how the site you've referenced disputes Strife's contention that dogfighting
is a part of the
APBT's history. As well it should, the APBT
FAQ that is linked to the site explicitly
states that dog fighting *is* a part of the
breed's history. So what are you going all
purple in the face about? Did you misunderstand
what Strife wrote or something?
:Oh my God you are so stupid! Get out of here!!! "
:specific purposes"... kiss my
:pretty ass!!!
:You really have no clue what so ever what my whole point :was. So shut up.
Now, now, honey. If indeed Strife missed your point, I'll venture to guess that
the fault lies in the way you expressed yourself. Perhaps it is you who should
shut up, at least until your reading and writing abilities have improved, and
you've got that nasty temper under control.
Strife
In article <35335E92...@bullspress.fi>, jo...@bullspress.fi says...
>Breeder of what?
Can't follow your own thread?
>What the heck are you talking about!!! A part of their history??? Read a book,
my friend and do get back to this discussion!!! Or
>visithttp://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbt.html
>and learn something!
have read many of them, maybe you should take your own advice!
>Oh my God you are so stupid! Get out of here!!! "specific purposes"... kiss my
>pretty ass!!!
1)Not at all, reserve judgement for yourself. 2)I don't think so, you see this
happens to be a public forum. 3)No thanks your attitude is stinky enough.
>You really have no clue what so ever what my whole point was. So shut up.
Really so why don't you explain it? or can you only spout insults, I hope this
isn't the extent of your intelligence. What do you utilize dog aggressiveness
for?
Kim and Majyck the APBT of Love
>- J
> --
> Bulls Press
Jonna Miettinen
K9gods wrote:
Okay, Jonna, honey--
how the site you've referenced disputes Strife's contention that dogfighting
is a part of the
APBT's history.
IT IS PART OF THE HISTORY BUT ALSO - AND THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT - A VERY BIG PART OF TODAY.
As well it should, the APBT
FAQ that is linked to the site explicitly
states that dog fighting *is* a part of the
breed's history. So what are you going all
purple in the face about? Did you misunderstand
what Strife wrote or something?
IT IS PART OF THE HISTORY BUT ALSO - AND THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT - A VERY BIG PART OF TODAY.
I really do hope that you all now understand my point. It is:
American Pit Bull Terrier was originally made for dogfighting.
Altough today some dog-ownres try to mold pit bull to be a pet,
a nice familydog, etc. it´s main purpose has and always will be -
dogfighting.
All the best of the pits are - this is NOT only my opinion - aggressive
towards all the other dogs, never nervous, never going to be loosers, coolminded
fighters.
Do you ever read for intance Sporting Dog Journal?
I guess not.
I am not interested in the good shape, the good looks, the good behaviour towards other dogs, the all-this-meaningless-thing-that-all-the-rest-of-the-dogbreeds-are-for- bullshit - pit bulls. I´m only - and only - interested in good dogfighter Pits.
- Jonna Miettinen
K9gods
:IT IS PART OF THE HISTORY BUT ALSO -
:AND THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT - A VERY
:BIG PART OF TODAY.
Yes, I know that some APBTs are still fought today. I think most other people
who frequent this NG know that, too. No one is disputing that point.
:I really do hope that you all now understand my point.
Understand, yes. Agree, no.
:It is:
:American Pit Bull Terrier was originally made
:for dogfighting.
True.
:Altough today some dog-ownres try to mold
:pit bull to be a pet, a nice familydog,etc.
Pit bulls don't need to be *molded* into great
pets and nice family dogs (well, okay, they
need obedience training just like any other dog),
that's just the way they are. Tolerance of
children and friendliness toward humans
in general are just as much a part of
the pit bull's nature as are gameness
and dog aggression.
:itNew s main purpose has and always will be - "dogfighting.
Bull. Gamebred pits will always have the
potential to be good dogfighters, but that
doesn't mean they must be used for that
purpose. Perhaps it's the only purpose *you*
care to use them for, but APBTs have excelled
in all kinds of areas, such as agility, therapy,
SAR, etc. That is not my opinion--it is a
matter of record.
:All the best of the pits are - this is NOT
:only my opinion -aggressive towards
:all the other dogs
Fine, still doesn't mean they must be fought.
My dogs both have really high prey drives, but
I don't actually use them to kill small animals.
(Well, I didn't really mind when they got the mouse
that invaded my kitchen this winter :) ). One of
them (an APBT mix) is quite dog aggressive toward
some dogs, but I'd never think of matching her, and
I don't think she's suffering for it.
:never nervous, never going to be loosers,
: coolminded fighters.
Well, if two pits fight each other, one of them has
to be the "looser," right? :)
:I am not interested in the good shape, the
:good looks, the good behaviour towards other
:dogs, the all-this-meaningless-thing-
:that-all-the-rest-of-the-dogbreeds-are-for-
Yikes. If you really think all the myriad jobs dogs
do, other than fight, are meaningless, you are
seriously wacked out.
:bullshit - pit bulls. I'm only - and only -
: interested in good dogfighter Pits.
I take it you fight your dogs. That's sad, but
if its legal where you live, then I guess
it's your business. It does not, however,
mean that all owners who don't fight their
pit bulls are ignorant or should just "shut up."
AVRAMA GINGOLD
JM> AVRAMA GINGOLD wrote:
ag> In real life, what does having a
ag> > very same-sex aggressive dog mean?
JM> A good pit is aggressive towards all sexs.
ag> > Aggressiveness is attitudinal and temperamental.
ag> > Aggressive actions (fighting) are behavioral, and
ag> > behaviors can be controlled readily by training and
ag> > education.
>
JM> I guestion this very highly. From my point of view, there is no fun
JM> having a pit
JM> (or any other dog for that matter) whose actions are always
JM> predictible. Isn't it
JM> boring? I have nothing against a good trained dog, but for the
JM> pet - there is a limit.
JM> - J
Yes, there is a limit. The limit is that my very same-sex
aggressive intact male Doberman has my permission to dislike
other males as much as he wants, but when another male
walks on "our" sidewalk and I say, "he has my permission,"
or a male challenges my Dobe and I say, "ignore," that
dog is going to ignore. He may give me a look that says
very loudly, "can't I kill him just a little bit," but
tough nuggies.
One of my favorite dogs is an APBT about Shomer's age
and named Theseus. His owner and I are both night
people, so we often meet late at night while walking
our dogs. I greatly love the expression on the faces
of passersby when they notice Theseus and Shomer
sitting politely, each by his owner's side, head
slightly averted from that unspeakable across the way
(another intact male), while James and I chat.
Is it boring that we control the aggressiveness of our
dogs? Hell, no. It would be even less boring if I
could control it well enough to permit Shomer to go
to the dog run where there are many uncontrolled males
who try to cross his T and not have to give more than
one command.
Sorry, as long as you live where there are other people--
and other dog owners--control makes having a dog much
less boring because you can take the well-behaved
dog with you almost everywhere.
Avrama & SHomer
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] A writer's best friend is the wastebasket.