Dogs-to-order
Chris Williams
Met a guy while waiting at the vet's with a marvelous dog: a glowing
Golden\Cocker. about 30lbs. Don't you hear it a lot? "I'd love to have
a Golden, but I don't have the room." Here it was.
And I've dreamed of supplying dogs for the elderly, who need them
most. Monitoring their care and taking them back if the person is
incapacitated. A young, socialized, hardy dog that would be fairly
low-mainenance. What breed or mix would that be?
>"It is by muteness that a dog becomes so utterly beyond value.
>With him, words play no torturing tricks."
> .......... John Galsworthy
Patch
"Chris Williams" <k9a...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:15924-3CA...@storefull-2395.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> It must be tempting to create new breeds.
> Met a guy while waiting at the vet's with a marvelous dog: a glowing
> Golden\Cocker. about 30lbs. Don't you hear it a lot? "I'd love to have
> a Golden, but I don't have the room." Here it was.
> And I've dreamed of supplying dogs for the elderly, who need them
> most. Monitoring their care and taking them back if the person is
> incapacitated. A young, socialized, hardy dog that would be fairly
> low-mainenance. What breed or mix would that be?
Rescues are already overflowing with perfectly suited dogs.
Take your pick.
Patch
Chris Williams
> perfectly suited dogs. Take your pick.
>Patch
Not here. Small dogs have become quite rare in local shelters with
raffles for the desirable ones. Large dogs are more available, but not
often suited for the elderly.
G Griffeth
5...@storefull-2394.public.lawson.webtv.net:
Same here. Rockwilder x labadoor x pit x chowchowchow x GSD mixes are a
dime/dozen. Put an ad in the paper to rehome a lost 30# terrier mix and
you'll get 25 calls.
Gg
--
Is michael a troll? You decide:
"But as I said, your wife is a much greater threat to kill
your daughter than your dog is. Just make sure she's not
depressed when the bathtub is full."
Jenn
"Chris Williams" <k9a...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:15924-3CA...@storefull-2395.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> Met a guy while waiting at the vet's with a marvelous dog: a glowing
> Golden\Cocker. about 30lbs. Don't you hear it a lot? "I'd love to have
> a Golden, but I don't have the room." Here it was.
> And I've dreamed of supplying dogs for the elderly, who need them
> most. Monitoring their care and taking them back if the person is
> incapacitated. A young, socialized, hardy dog that would be fairly
> low-mainenance. What breed or mix would that be?
>
relate this and your post just came up and reminded me.
Had someone call into work today, as often occurs, asking about a particular
breed. Except this client wanted to know if I would tell him "the history of
the Terri-Poo, how big it would get, its average lifespan, and what colors
they come in?"
My answer was, "Well, since it could be anything from a Norwich Terrier to
an Airedale Terrier, and a Toy Poodle to a Standard Poodle making up this
*mixed breed*, I'd say it will be anywhere from 5 lbs to 85 lbs, live
anywhere from 2 years to 20 years, and comes in all colours from black to
white. And it has no history, BECAUSE ITS NOT A BREED."
Even WITH pure bred dogs it's annoying. Ever ask someone what kind of dog
they have and they answer "Pure bred Bichon Frise"? PMO!!!!! If ya have a
Golden, you just tell people "He's a Golden", right? How many people here
tack on the title *pure bred* when discussing their breeds? Am I just being
petty?
Jenn S
Chris Jung
"Jenn" <pywh...@powersurfEr.com> wrote in message
news:B9xq8.2344$2j3.2...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
A typical conversation is:
"What kind of dog is that?"
"S/He's a collie"
"I can see the collie in him/her, but what else?"
"All collie, 100% collie, she/he's a purebred (then I give a short
explaination of the smooth collie verses the rough, also including the fact
that collies come in more colors than "Lassie Sable.").
"Are you sure? She/he looks like she/he has some greyhound or shepherd in
him/her."
"Yup, this here is a purebred collie with short hair, all collie, nuthin'
but collie."
Chris and her smooth . . . oh yes. . .Collies,
Zeffie (often guessed as a Collie/GSD mix) and Pablo (often guessed as a
Collie/Greyound mix)
Lushious Lugs
"Chris Jung" <cj...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:zIAq8.6463$hq2.1...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
[..]
>
> "All collie, 100% collie, she/he's a purebred (then I give a short
> explaination of the smooth collie verses the rough, also including the
fact
> that collies come in more colors than "Lassie Sable.").
>
> "Are you sure? She/he looks like she/he has some greyhound or shepherd in
> him/her."
>
> "Yup, this here is a purebred collie with short hair, all collie, nuthin'
> but collie."
>
> Chris and her smooth . . . oh yes. . .Collies,
> Zeffie (often guessed as a Collie/GSD mix) and Pablo (often guessed as a
> Collie/Greyound mix)
>
I've never, ever seen a Smooth Collie over here, so wouldn't recognise on on
site ~ they are very much like Rough Collies with out the coat, rather than
BC's?... or an entirely separate entity, like the Beardie (my favourite if
it weren't for the coat!)?...
People ask me if Stone's purebred or pedigree ~ then say she must have lab
in her because she hasn't got the mask! ~ personally, I don't care what she
*IS* but I do tell people she's purebred, though not nercessarily well bred.
(or I shouldn't have found her in a shelter.)
Diana
--
See my dog Stone ~ July 5th on the birthday calendar.
The aad group web site: http://www.ourdogs.chilly-hippo.co.uk
(In the UK 'lugs' or 'lug 'oles' is slang for ears ~ and no dog has a finer
set than my Stone!)
Stephanie Gelman
> Well in defense of tacking on the "purebred" thing. I have smooth
collies.
> A typical conversation is:
>
> "What kind of dog is that?"
>
> "S/He's a collie"
>
> "I can see the collie in him/her, but what else?"
>
> "All collie, 100% collie, she/he's a purebred (then I give a short
> explaination of the smooth collie verses the rough, also including the
fact
> that collies come in more colors than "Lassie Sable.").
>
> "Are you sure? She/he looks like she/he has some greyhound or shepherd in
> him/her."
>
> "Yup, this here is a purebred collie with short hair, all collie, nuthin'
> but collie."
>
> Chris and her smooth . . . oh yes. . .Collies,
> Zeffie (often guessed as a Collie/GSD mix) and Pablo (often guessed as a
> Collie/Greyound mix)
Personally, I could care less, but I go through *almost* the same thing with
Callie. She's only 10 months old and doesn't have her full coat in yet.
Her coloring is almost exactly like Lassie so I get people coming up to me
all the time saying "what a beautiful dog! Is she a purebred Collie?" When
I tell them "yes" they inevitably say something like "hm, her coat isn't
very long, is it?" or "oh, we used to have a Collie and he was just HUGE
compared to her".
Heck, I even had a couple w/ two Collies come up to me at the dog park and
"inform" me that they didn't think she was pure-bred. Well, La-Ti-Da... I
told them that I really didn't care b/c she was adopted, but everyone from
the vet to several "Collie People" I know said right away that she's
full-bred (at least clearly enough for an ILP if we want to go for it).
It's just that she doesn't have the full coat that many show-bred Collies of
the same age do. Actually, our vet said that she looks like Rough Collies
at her age used to look many (many) years ago and she probably won't get a
really full coat until she is about 3.
--
Steph Gelman
(and Callie)
http://photos.yahoo.com/StephG72
Patch
Generally, in UK, its smaller crossbreeds which are predominant in
multi-type rescues. Most purebreeds have their own rescues [though there is
some overlapping of course ]. Not so many of the larger breeds [generally
speaking] end up in multi-type rescues, perhaps the occasional Rottie or
Dane, but its the exception rather than the rule. A lot of multi rescues
tend to pass purebreds on to their specific breed rescue if they havent been
able to home in a reasonable time, so perhaps its not so much that they
arent available, just not the norm in a large center.
The most common pure breed in rescue is Grehound, and most common cross
breed we tend to see here is Lab/Collie but there are lots of small Heinzes,
often terrier mixes.
They are a very popular choice as hearing dogs for the deaf rather than
larger mixes or purebreds [here].
Patch
Patch
"Chris Jung" <cj...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message news:zIAq8.6463
<snip>
Well in defense of tacking on the "purebred" thing. I have smooth collies.
> A typical conversation is:
>
> "What kind of dog is that?"
>
> "S/He's a collie"
>
> "I can see the collie in him/her, but what else?"
>
> "All collie, 100% collie, she/he's a purebred (then I give a short
> explaination of the smooth collie verses the rough, also including the
fact
> that collies come in more colors than "Lassie Sable.").
>
> "Are you sure? She/he looks like she/he has some greyhound or shepherd in
> him/her."
>
> "Yup, this here is a purebred collie with short hair, all collie, nuthin'
> but collie."
>
> Chris and her smooth . . . oh yes. . .Collies,
> Zeffie (often guessed as a Collie/GSD mix) and Pablo (often guessed as a
> Collie/Greyound mix)
Heh, I have had loads of people ask what my BC`s are.
They dont equate whites as being "pure" BC and Grem has a shortish straight
coat as opposed to the "norm" of the rougher coat, but BC`s they all are.
Had a vet once ask if Grem was a Keeshond of all things, [!!!]
She actually looks quite like a Finnish Reindeer Herder if that gives you a
reasonable visual idea of her.
Patch
Chris Jung
"Lushious Lugs" <di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a8emh3$ria$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Chris Jung" <cj...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:zIAq8.6463$hq2.1...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> [..]
>
> >
> > "All collie, 100% collie, she/he's a purebred (then I give a short
> > explaination of the smooth collie verses the rough, also including the
> fact
> > that collies come in more colors than "Lassie Sable.").
> >
> > "Are you sure? She/he looks like she/he has some greyhound or shepherd
in
> > him/her."
> >
> > "Yup, this here is a purebred collie with short hair, all collie,
nuthin'
> > but collie."
> >
> > Chris and her smooth . . . oh yes. . .Collies,
> > Zeffie (often guessed as a Collie/GSD mix) and Pablo (often guessed as a
> > Collie/Greyound mix)
> >
> I've never, ever seen a Smooth Collie over here, so wouldn't recognise on
on
> site ~ they are very much like Rough Collies with out the coat, rather
than
> BC's?... or an entirely separate entity, like the Beardie (my favourite if
> it weren't for the coat!)?...
>
I heard that smooth collies were more popular over in the UK than over here.
They have always been around - the Collie (not BCs or Bearded Collie, they
are both distance cousins) has always had roughs and smooths from the
beginning of the breed) but roughs outnumber the smoothies by far. A smooth
collie is basically a rough collie with a crew cut. ;-)
In the UK, the rough and smooth collies were interbred (considered one
breed with two coat varieties) until only about five years ago. Now in the
UK Kennel club the two coats varieties are considered two separate breeds.
I think that limits the gene pool, IMHO, but they didn't ask me. The reason
for the split was that the UK rough had diverged greatly in conformation
type while the smooth stayed more or less the same.
In the US, the smooths and roughs are considered two varieties of the same
breed. They are often interbred and are judged to the exact same standard. A
US rough collie and a US smooth collie are exactly the same dog except for
the hair length. A UK smooth looks a great deal like US smooths except for
some subtle differences and the UK rough now looks much different.
More than you ever wanted to know I'm sure . . . ;-)
Chris and her lovely yet bored smoothies,
Zeffie and Pablo (we want a walkies!)
Chris Williams
>Heck, I even had a couple w/ two Collies
> come up to me at the dog park and
> "inform" me that they didn't think she
> was pure-bred.
not the saviest, but he's trying really hard. An idiot walked up to him
and told him his pup was "poorly bred". He was really hurt.
BTW, (and this may open a can of peas), about 1 in 10 people who come
to the dog park own purebreds, and they are marginalized. Unless they
make it clear it's a rescue, they are considered 'dillitantes', not
really knowledgable nor interested in dogs. Buying a dog is becoming a
no-no here.
One guy parks, opens the back door of his gleaming Rolls, and reveals
a really disreputable IW\mix reclining on the buttery leather.
"What kind of dog is that?" he's asked.
" A Wal-Mart," he says. "At least, that's where I found him."
Lushious Lugs
"Chris Jung" <cj...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message news:pHDq8.7371> >
> > [..]
>
> I heard that smooth collies were more popular over in the UK than over
here.
> They have always been around - the Collie (not BCs or Bearded Collie, they
> are both distance cousins) has always had roughs and smooths from the
> beginning of the breed) but roughs outnumber the smoothies by far. A
smooth
> collie is basically a rough collie with a crew cut. ;-)
My nan had a Rough Collie when I was a child ~ over here people generally
mean the Border Collie when they say 'collie' as they are by far the most
popular of the lot, locally anyway, I've seen a few Rough Collies in the
village ~ I could no way cope with that coat!... but Smooths ~I bet I could
ask around & few people locally would know they existed.
> In the UK, the rough and smooth collies were interbred (considered one
> breed with two coat varieties) until only about five years ago. Now in
the
> UK Kennel club the two coats varieties are considered two separate breeds.
> I think that limits the gene pool, IMHO, but they didn't ask me. The
reason
> for the split was that the UK rough had diverged greatly in conformation
> type while the smooth stayed more or less the same.
My Nan's one had a really posh bit of paper ~ but the poor thing died young.
It was that dog that put me off the idea of breeding for show, because she
couldn't shut her mouth properly. An adult (can't remember who, I was about
9) told me it was because the breeders bred for long elegant noses...
thankfully, it seems things have changed in the past few years (this was in
the 70's).
>
> In the US, the smooths and roughs are considered two varieties of the same
> breed. They are often interbred and are judged to the exact same standard.
A
> US rough collie and a US smooth collie are exactly the same dog except for
> the hair length. A UK smooth looks a great deal like US smooths except
for
> some subtle differences and the UK rough now looks much different.
>
> More than you ever wanted to know I'm sure . . . ;-)
No such thing as too much 'dog stuff!'.
I was sort of toying with the idea, if I could ever pursuade Pete to go for
2 dogs, of having a smooth collie as a grown up rescue as a second dog,
thinking the smooth might be more like a smooth BC, rather than rough.
This is subject to many things and well in the future. Pete says he likes
the look of the Weimeraner, so I have set my heart on all the challenges a
pup will throw at me, once Stoney's gone to rest and I am sure that I can
cope with a few little 'nicks' about our home or that they can be easily
overcome... (garden layout mainly ~ I couldn't use it safely to leave a dog
in for a moment, but have fields, woodland & parks surrounding us).
Anyways, I guess this is the wrong group for this chat!
Thanks,
h i g h
pet store for $449.00. His "breeder" was a guy by the last name of Yoder
who lives in Willow Hill PA (can you say Amish puppy mill anyone? )We are
his third family since January 18th. He is a sweet goofy-looking little guy
and we love him to death , but he should have never been born. I don't even
want to KNOW what they were thinking when they bred his parents. :-((((((
Becky
"Chris Williams" <k9a...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:15924-3CA...@storefull-2395.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Christy
"Stephanie Gelman" <s.gelman@[remove_this]snet.net> wrote in message
news:cWBq8.10726$%G3.2892006467@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Personally, I could care less, but I go through *almost* the same thing
with
> Callie. She's only 10 months old and doesn't have her full coat in yet.
> Her coloring is almost exactly like Lassie so I get people coming up to me
> all the time saying "what a beautiful dog! Is she a purebred Collie?"
When
> I tell them "yes" they inevitably say something like "hm, her coat isn't
> very long, is it?" or "oh, we used to have a Collie and he was just HUGE
> compared to her".
>
> Heck, I even had a couple w/ two Collies come up to me at the dog park and
> "inform" me that they didn't think she was pure-bred. Well, La-Ti-Da...
I
> told them that I really didn't care b/c she was adopted, but everyone from
> the vet to several "Collie People" I know said right away that she's
> full-bred (at least clearly enough for an ILP if we want to go for it).
> It's just that she doesn't have the full coat that many show-bred Collies
of
> the same age do. Actually, our vet said that she looks like Rough Collies
> at her age used to look many (many) years ago and she probably won't get a
> really full coat until she is about 3.
She's adorable! She looks very much like my Dakota's mother, who was a
rescue dog - she was tied up, pregnant, at the shelter, and she escaped and
ran free for two weeks before they caught her. She had her puppies shortly
afterward, poor thing! She was so thin. Anyway, Callie is darling and even
if she never gets a big coat she's a doll.
Christy
Peter L. Berghold
unsuspecting people. I had a student in my CGC class last semester that
had a "purebred French Grouse Retriever" or some such. I asked her (keeping
my tongue firmly in my cheek) what registry the dog was registered with and
I was told the "American Canine Council." I said nothing mostly out of
charity because the poor woman firmly believed she had a dog that was worth
US $1500 and really did not know any better.
The dog she had looked like a miniature version of a Brittany Spaniel with
poor confirmation. In fact I did express concern that the dog looked under
nourished to me.
She wasn't the first I had heard from in this position and probably won't
be the last. I am at a loss what to say to people that I see that have been
ripped off by unscruplious dog peddlers because they often end up believing
very firmly the Bovine Scatology that they have been told.
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Peter L. Berghold Pe...@Berghold.Net -or- Peter.B...@med.nyu.edu
Manager Unix Engineering,MT Sinai NYU (212) 263-6932
For PGP public key send email to: pgp...@berghold.net
Jenn
> >
> Well in defense of tacking on the "purebred" thing. I have smooth
collies.
> A typical conversation is:
>
> "What kind of dog is that?"
>
> "S/He's a collie"
>
> "I can see the collie in him/her, but what else?"
>
> "All collie, 100% collie, she/he's a purebred (then I give a short
> explaination of the smooth collie verses the rough, also including the
fact
> that collies come in more colors than "Lassie Sable.").
>
> "Are you sure? She/he looks like she/he has some greyhound or shepherd in
> him/her."
>
> "Yup, this here is a purebred collie with short hair, all collie, nuthin'
> but collie."
>
Well, I do have to do that with Anja, as most people think she is a
collie/rottie or dobie cross. Anything BUT GSD. However people who have to
announce that their dog is pure-bred when no one asks or questions is
annoying.
The difference is, you are educating people about Smoothies. I am educating
people about GSD's. The people I am describing are newbie-dog-owner-snobs.
Jenn S
Jenn
"Stephanie Gelman" <s.gelman@[remove_this]snet.net> wrote in message
news:cWBq8.10726$%G3.2892006467@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Heck, I even had a couple w/ two Collies come up to me at the dog park and
> "inform" me that they didn't think she was pure-bred. Well, La-Ti-Da...
And that's what I hate - the Dog Snob!
Jenn S (That is really what I meant to complain about.)
h i g h
his breed was listed as "Jug". Lovely, eh?
"h i g h" <deja...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xYGq8.400894$uv5.33...@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Elizabeth Naime
wrote:
>Chris and her smooth . . . oh yes. . .Collies,
Ever have someone leave still convinced that you were taken in, and
these can't be all Collie?
>Zeffie (often guessed as a Collie/GSD mix) and Pablo (often guessed as a
>Collie/Greyound mix)
Silly people. I've seen pictures, remember! Tricolor smooths like my
Sprite and your Zeffie and Pablo are "Collie Doberman crosses".
Wicked brown eye spots.
-----------------------------------------
ERROR 418: I'm a Teapot.
Kaa
>
> Jenn S
>
>
when someone asked me what Krayon was and I answered that she's a Corgi-mix
and we're not 100% sure what else is in her genes.
When people make that hmmpf-face and say "oh it's JUST a mutt..." I want to
strangle them with my leash. Especially when they stand there with their
poor little petshop-bichon or whatever it is... Now I'm just tired of it ,
and I always think of great answers after they leave...
At least I saved my baby from the shelter, as opposed to feeding the mill
industry.
Oh well.
Kate
New pictures of Krayon on http://kaabooo.freehomepage.com/photo.html
Cindy
Kaa <kaa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Dog snobs in general piss me off. In the beginning I'd be reallyoffended
>when someone asked me what Krayon was and I answered that she's a Corgi-mix
>and we're not 100% sure what else is in her genes.
>When people make that hmmpf-face and say "oh it's JUST a mutt..." I want to
>strangle them with my leash. Especially when they stand there with their
>poor little petshop-bichon or whatever it is... Now I'm just tired of it ,
>and I always think of great answers after they leave...
>At least I saved my baby from the shelter, as opposed to feeding the mill
>industry.
I've simply never understood this attitude. I have purebred dogs of
my own, but I've always been interested in what kind of breed(s) others'
dogs were and to me the guessing game is just fun. I think my favorite
was a dal/wirehaird pointer cross. Had the hair, shape & texture of
the wirehaired pointer, but the coloration of a dal...the dog's name was
Sgt Pepper...
I also don't tell ppl that I think their purebred is poorly bred or
a poor specimen of their breed, unless they're asking me for an informed
opinion (and when they do, I'm careful to start with my own dogs, saying
that this one has a good conformation, this one doesn't, and that one
is undersized...your dog is...).
Just seems like plain ole good manners to me...
--Cindy
Melinda Shore
Cindy <tit...@io.com> wrote:
>I've simply never understood this attitude. I have purebred dogs of
>my own, but I've always been interested in what kind of breed(s) others'
>dogs were and to me the guessing game is just fun.
I once had someone who runs a local boarding kennel give me
crap about Greta (Newf/Collie x). Say, that's good for
business. We never went back.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it
Rocky
(news:U%Nq8.103329$VJ1.8...@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com)
wrote:
> I also don't tell ppl that I think their purebred is poorly
> bred or a poor specimen of their breed [...]
I'm sure glad that I don't do this, also. At a CKC agility
trial, I ran into the most poorly bred Aussie that I'd ever
seen. He turned out to be a short-coated Pyrenean Shepherd Dog.
This is him:
http://www.pyrs.homestead.com/tison.html
I also a tell a friend with black Mudis that I really like her
Aussie/Schipperke crosses.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Rocky
(news:a8gk9h$uaq$2...@netnews.upenn.edu) wrote:
> http://www.pyrs.homestead.com/whoopee.html
Where do I know the name Diane Bauman from? Seems familiar.
> I really like this breed, from the little exposure I've had
> to them anyway. They're cute, happy, and a good size.
I do, too. One of the AAC judges that I know, MJ Thuron, runs
them in agility. I really like the less common short coated
pyrs, like Tison, though.
> You actually know someone with Mudis? Where did she find
> them?
Yup, she's got 3 now, all blacks. Her new pup, Ping, likes me.
(Ping doesn't jump into everyone's arms, y'know.) Lori brought
them in directly from Hungary. Talk about intense dogs.
shelly
"Rocky" <3...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91E5DE6D98438au...@130.133.1.4...
> Where do I know the name Diane Bauman from? Seems familiar.
when all else fails, go a-Googling:
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_epq=diane%20bauman&as_ugroup=rec.pets
.dogs*&num=100&as_scoring=d&hl=en
--
shelly and elliott & harriet
Chris Williams
> I'm so glad my dogs are not black. It's
> almost impossible to photograph black
> dogs well.
>It must be VERY frustrating for their
> owners.
>Pat
Mac was one of a litter of eight, and I fell for a huge, coal-back
pup. (The vet said the litter had at least 3 fathers). Knew, though, I
would have to keep the one nobody wanted.
When the black one was picked, I went into immediate denial. (I'm
skilled at that.) "Oh, well. That's good. I could never have gotten a
decent picture of that damned dog anyway."
BTW, I kept Mac because everybody called him "the dumb one". He was
the last to do puppy-things. A friend adopted the black one. My, oh
my! The brilliant, versatile Mac is miles ahead of that no-good black
dog. Well, I'm still a little bitter.
Rocky
(news:a8hnqq$shg0o$1...@ID-39167.news.dfncis.de) wrote:
>> Where do I know the name Diane Bauman from? Seems familiar.
>
> when all else fails, go a-Googling
Thanks, Shelly. I'm going to have to find that Bauman training
book that Ann recommended to me a year ago.
shelly
> Thanks, Shelly. I'm going to have to find that Bauman training
> book that Ann recommended to me a year ago.
you're welcome! <G> i'm a reference librarian (IOW a research junkie)
at heart, so it's no biggie.
Jerry Howe
"Peter L. Berghold" <Pe...@Berghold.Net> wrote in message
news:zQJq8.16$pm2...@typhoon.nyu.edu...
Oh? I hadn't notice you was with a university. Figgers. I've discredited our
university behaviorists... pretty soundly.
> I never cease to be amazed at the crap that puppy mills pull on
> unsuspecting people.
Yeah? I've never ceased to be amazed at the incompetent lying dog
abusing Thugs who like to blame the dog on account of their abusive
methods fail. Of course peeter only uses non force methods.... and
birbery and crating and just a little correction when necessary and
of course the nilif program and prozac and other psychotropics
on the advice of your university behaviorist, isn't that correct peter
or have I confused you with one of your pals???
> I had a student in my CGC class last semester
BWWWAWHAHAHAAAA!!! You're an idiot. You can't even train
your own dogs and you don't even know the criteria for cgc...as
though that was something to strive for, being able to walk down
the street without a catastrophe.
> that had a "purebred French Grouse Retriever" or some such. I asked
> her (keeping my tongue firmly in my cheek) what registry the dog was
> registered with and I was told the "American Canine Council." I said
> nothing mostly out of charity because the poor woman firmly believed
>she had a dog that was worth US $1500 and really did not know any better.
Whot does the great peeter cgc trainer know about her dog or it's registry?
> The dog she had looked like a miniature version of a Brittany Spaniel with
> poor confirmation.
Perhaps that's the breed standard. Did you find her breed standard and
LOOK to compare, or did you just shoot your ignorant jealous yap again
without knowing the subject matter, peeter??? You're a little bit of a punk,
I'd say.
> In fact I did express concern that the dog looked under nourished to me.
Sometimes that's the breed standard, peeter. Have you looked at the
standard before criticizing the dog for not having akc papers? The akc
is only a registry of NUMBERS, not QUALITY or STANDARDS.
> She wasn't the first I had heard from in this position and probably won't
> be the last.
No doubt. That's cause you're an uniformed dim witted self centered
blowhard.
> I am at a loss what to say to people that I see that have been
> ripped off by unscruplious dog peddlers because they often
> end up believing very firmly the Bovine Scatology that they have
> been told.
Nuff said, peeter.
> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> Peter L. Berghold Pe...@Berghold.Net -or- Peter.B...@med.nyu.edu
> Manager Unix Engineering,MT Sinai NYU (212) 263-6932
> For PGP public key send email to: pgp...@berghold.net
Hello Tom,
"Tom Frey" <tfrey...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:omPq8.4165$oN6....@news1.east.cox.net...
> Just got a 6 week old weim.
Now there's a rather unique dog. Don't see many of them around.
> I hope one day she will become a good bird hunter.
If you follow the instructions in your FREE copy of my FREE Wits'
End Dog Training Method manual you'll be able to train her to naturally
want to do anything you like. That's the nature of the beast.
> I'm not a hunter, and have no intention of killing anything.
I'm sure the woodslands creatures would appreciate that.
> But I would enjoy the sport of walking with her and "working her".
> Just fun afternoons with her and no guns.
Great. Maybe I'll find you some bird dog advice from our experts...
I've had dobes and rotts that pointed and woulda made great hunters
> My question is: If this is my goal, should I take her through a generic
> obeidence class soon,
With rare exception you should stay the heel away from trainers.
> and find a hunting trainer later;
What's to train? If you can make your dog come when you ask, and go
when you ask, and turn left and right and like that, what moore do you
need to take him out and train him to do as you'd prefer to accomplish
your goal? I'm all for competition. Good competition is good for business.
Maybe you'll get into breeding and showing and all like that. That's a lot
of fun and can be profitable to boot. Enjoy. But just be sure you really
know what you're doin cause dog's lives depend on HOWE they're
handled and trained. Recent research from Purdue sez all compulsive
behaviors are caused by stress.
> or start her young with a hunting trainer?
HOWE COME you'd need someone else to teach your dog HOWE
you want him to work if you can make him do anything you ask anyHOWE?
> Would routine obeidence training hamper her
Depends. And force or bribe methods could ruin him. They can
be pretty tightly wound, and it doesn't take much stress to make
they hyper.
> training with a hunting trainer later?
I'm sure there's some fine field dog trainers out there, but you'll
probably never find them becaue they tend to lose their stomachs
watching their pals abusing their dogs in training.
> Regards,
> Tom
Our group is comprised mostly of koehler and pronged spiked
pinch choke and shock collar fans who would rather continue
hurting and killing their dogs despite that my students have
100% success almost instantly, sometimes even faster.
Marilyn was killfiled by our professor of anal-ytic behavior at
UofWI lying doc "scruff shake and scream NO into its face for
5 seconds" dermer cause she reported my Surrogate Toy
Separation Anxiety Technique cured a seriously destructive
dog the first time they used it, just like Dave sez right here
below...
Seems our professor was embarrassed cause he was in the
middle of ridiculing my ineffective method with his pal sindy
"don't let the dog SCREAM, cover it's muzzle and tell it not
to be such a moaner" mooreon who threatened to sue us
for copyright infringement for posting her forced fetch
training methods from her faq'a page at k9web.
She quotes right outta koehler to shove the dog's head into
water you've filled into a hole it's dug. Shoves fingers down
puppys throats to choke them outta mouthing, knees them in
the chest and steps on their toes and pops them on the snout
and throws them down by their ears and climbs all over them
like a raped ape and growls into their throats and bites them on
the ears and pinches and twists their ears and toes...
Dave Cohen <coh...@total.net writes:
Re: Barking Deterrants Needed...
Hi. Please understand that I do not know Jerry and have
spoken with him briefly once by email.
I have no stake or interest in the success of his
business. I simply want to thank him publicly for one
of his tips, with regards to separation anxiety.
I thought it seemed far fetched to praise a stuffed
animal and then say good bye to my own dog, but
I am usually a very open minded person, so I tried it.
Well, lo and behold- the damn trick worked!
I think Jerry has some intriguing techniques, and
personally I think everyone who constantly criticizes
him is not understanding his logic. Thank you Jerry!
"JoeTheGuru" <joeth...@hotmail.com.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:3cab77eb$0$9993$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> JERRY SAVE THIS LAD!!!!
> or it could be a troll <are you a troll??>
> do not use it on your dog..... would you use it on your best friend.....
> I have read jerry's book, it seems to easy at first. however I started to
> use some of the training out of it and now.
> I have a dog that heels as fast as a collie in a trial.<great dane X
mastiff
> I have a dog that stays and never leaves the spot.
> I have a dog that comes when ever I call.
> I have a dog that never leaves the yard, never runs away.
> I have a dog that stands still to be washed with the cold hose.
> I have a dog that never pulls on the lead when we walk.
> I have a dog that puts up with more abuse then a dog should from my 2 year
> old <and loves it>
> I have a dog that barks at the fence only when some ones there.
> I have a dog that would not care less if there is another dog in the park
> <only wants to be with and please me>
> though a lot of this is due to me training the dog <spending the time with
> the dog>.
> jerry's book showed me not to punish the dog. but just to work with the
dog.
> which I liked the idea of hence why I tried it. it is easy to become
> frustrated with a dog when you are trying to train them. I look forward
to
> my next puppy <ban dog> so I can use the information from jerry's book and
> see just how good a dog can get. the dog I have now was when I picked her
up
> from the RSPCA. she could not walk on a lead <no idea>. cowered from every
> noise <and wet her self>, messed in the house at every turn. acted like I
> was killing her when I dragged her over to the mess. this was a 6 month
old
> pup that had been beaten <2.5 feet to the shoulder>. I could of taken her
> back however I knew I could bring her back to being happy to be a dog. the
> dog I have now at 1.5 years <same dog> is a dog to be proud to walk down
the
> street with <3 feet to the shoulder and still growing>. so well behaved
even
> when people walk passed with a out of control dog. gentle with my child
and
> trust worthy < I never have to worry that my dog will bite her, only have
to
> worry if a stranger comes over to my child. still that is not a worry she
> places herself between my child and the stranger>. I may be plugging
> jerry's book, however with the crap out there it is good to see that
> someone has moved forward. looked at a different way to train dogs.
> yes he gets into people, and in their face < you should back off a little
> jerry> however he is sick of the bashing, choking, shocking, shaking,
> and everything else. so jerry save this lad from ruining his dog.
> later,
> Joe
"melisande" <melis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:rLo08.751$0H.5...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> I haven't quite finished reading the FREE Wits' End
> Dog Training Method manual, but it already worked
> miracles with our three dogs
> The barking at the door has diminished so much that,
> well, frankly, we're stunned.
> Anyway, your approach is amazing.
> Melisand
============================
Jerry I cannot even begin to tell you the success Ive had with your training
manual! My two mutts have gone from out-of-control psychos to obediant well
behaved companions within a matter of weeks! AND My friends have seen the
success and have asked me to work on their dogs! I was working with a 5
month old ridgeback female today and she was being an angel after like an
hour of working with her! it is AMAZING!! I pity those fools who take their
dogs to classes where the "Trainers" abuse their dogs! (do they have a
degree? A masters? a Phd? by the way? NO they are average joes off the
street who think they know how to train dogs!)
Once again, Jerry, you are a genious!
NEVYN
and my Dogs, Rizzo and Midget, My Grandparents dogs, Dusty and Snoopy, and
my friends pup, Jazz.
===============================
Hi, Jerry.
I'm not sure that I'm a 100% convert, or that I agree
with (or even understand) 100% of what you say in this
manual ... BUT ... we had "come" down pat in a few
reps and you could have knocked me down when I tried
the exercise with "drop" and, after a few reps in
different spots Darwin practically *threw* the rubber
ball at my feet on command. He's still not perfect
(just a pup, after all, and he's stubborn enough to
want to push and test me a little bit more).
For what it's worth, I can see (as no doubt you have)
how your usenet manner is likely to rankle a few
folks, but that woman who advocates ear pulling and
beating with sticks deserves everything she gets. Even
if that was the only method that would work, I'd live
with my dog not fetching rather than do any of that.
(Darwin fetches enthusiastically and instinctively,
tho').
Best, ben
============================
"misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6786-3C0...@storefull-231.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Thanks Tricia9999, that was an interesting read! Course my little
> gray box seems to be working... Buddy stopped biting the baby! No
> negative side-effects seen occurring...not to the bird, the other bird
> or Zelda. ~misty
=============================
Here's a discussion I just had with Nevyn, who wrote in here
about four weeks ago with some dog aggression problems and THEN some.
You'll find his original posts in the archives, this one was private, on
msn:
Never give out your password or credit card number in an instant message
conversation.
Nevyn says:
hello Jerry.
Jerry says:
HOWEDY Nevyn
Nevyn says:
How are you?
Jerry says:
sup?
Nevyn says:
Oh nothing
Nevyn says:
My dogs are alot better now!
Jerry says:
fine
Jerry says:
tell me
Nevyn says:
I can walk them on or off the leash and they don't give a #@% about other
dogs
Jerry says:
naah
Nevyn says:
I can let them inside and they wont eat the cats
Jerry says:
naah
Nevyn says:
Yup
Jerry says:
what did you do, buy a shock collar?
Nevyn says:
No
Nevyn says:
Praised them
Jerry says:
ahh!
Jerry says:
you think they're 100% better
Nevyn says:
'cept they still bark at the neighbour but only coz he swears at them and
pours water on them
Nevyn says:
nahh they still have stinky breath!
Nevyn says:
muahaha
Jerry says:
ok
Jerry says:
I'll go for that
Jerry says:
it'll take a couple more days to break the neighbor thing if you're
consistent
Jerry says:
then he won't swear and throw water at them
Nevyn says:
yeah but he's only out on the weekends
Jerry says:
but they'll still have stinky breath
Nevyn says:
muahahaha
Jerry says:
you gonna write the group and tell them they're suckin hind teat?
Nevyn says:
eh
Nevyn says:
nah
Nevyn says:
cant
Nevyn says:
my news server isn't workin
Nevyn says:
how about u just screenshot or copy this chat and post it
Jerry says:
why not.
Nevyn says:
sorry been tryin all day to get on the news server
Jerry says:
you got anything you'd like to tell the dog lovers who would prefer
to see you choke and shock and lock your dogs in a box?
Jerry says:
I guess you don't want to tell them nuthin that they don't already know,
huh?
Nevyn says:
hah
Nevyn says:
tell them they're fuckers who need to die
Nevyn says:
dogs aren't for abusing they are for loving they love so much
Jerry says:
that's HOWE COME they got me now
Jerry says:
howe much training time did it take for the two of 'em?
Nevyn says:
pfftt
Nevyn says:
it didn't even seem like training
Nevyn says:
its been 24 days since I got your manual
Jerry says:
pfffttt!!!!
Jerry says:
hhahahahaha
Jerry says:
have you got that feeling that they're in tune with EVERYTHING you're
wanting them to do?
Jerry says:
I forgot what city you're in.
Jerry says:
maybe if you're near alphalpha sweeny you can swing by and LAUGH your ass
off at him growling at his dogs???
Jerry says:
BWWWHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
Nevyn says:
LOL
Nevyn says:
I'm in Perth, Australia!
Nevyn says:
and yes they do seem to be in tune
=====================
Nevyn says:
oh!! the other day my dogs went into submissive position when a
tiny little toy poodle came up barking at them! !LOL
Jerry says:
EXCELLENT!
Nevyn says:
lol
Jerry says:
they knew they didn't need to fight, cause everything was in
your expert control.
Keep up the good work. j;~)
From: Nevyn (ali...@wasp.net.au)
Subject: Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
View this article only
Date: 2002-03-01 03:15:50 PST
Hello
I have two mungrel females; the breeds exactly are Blue Heeler (spots) x
Kelpi (dominant genes) x American Pitbull (behavioural) x Pug (don't
laugh!).
They are gentle loving dogs when I'm at home with them, and they are
friendly with unknown people. They are sisters. One is obviously dominant
over the other, and I don't have a problem with that, however;
Their behaviour is very odd. Some days they are very good whilst I'm walking
them, some days they are not. They are 3 years old and have only been
walking for about 12 months because my mom didn't walk them and now I'm home
so I walk them for about an hour and half every afternoon. I take them to
the park where they chase birds and swim in the lake.
This is my problem :
The less-dominant dog viscously barks at every other dog we walk past; I
have tried using a stick and giving her a tap when she does it, and treating
her with treats when she doesn't, using a choke chain, a muzzle and a thing
that sprays stuff in her mouth when she barks. She won't stop! Does anyone
know how I can stop her? ]
Also, the more-dominant dog seems to know this is WRONG, when the other dog
barks, she doesn't bark, but she nips at the other dog as if telling her to
cut it out, and then the barking one attacks the more-dominant one and they
fight on the leash... it is quite disturbing to the people walking past.
And also the more-dominant one is okay around other dogs...SOMETIMES...
sometimes she completely ignores them, and yet other times she will attack
them, like yesterday. The less dominant one I must keep on a leash if a
person brings there dog to the park.
How do I stop them attacking other dogs? I have tried all the methods I have
used above for 10 months every afternoon. Is it just a pack-behaviour thing?
It can really be quite embarrassing when your dogs attack some old lady's or
little girl's dog.
They are good dogs, when at home or when there are no other dogs around.
Today there were hundreds of sparrows flying around the park and they were
chasing them and jumping up trying to catch them for more than 90 minutes
(They went straight to bed when I bought them home!). Can anyone help me?
Email me at my emails address, ali...@wasp.net.au coz this list is tooo
crowded.
--
Thanks,
Nevyn
=======================
A pet professional writes:
Jerry,
Please give me everything you have on the heeling
pattern. I'm just getting over the basics with my
devils (Schipperke's)-house breaking and aggressive
behaviour.
They were caged and quite ill for a full year and are a
huge handful. They are born circlers and extremely
hyper.
I was having the worst time because none of my
traditional stuff worked- I'm not a dog trainer but
I do have a little experience. I'm also looking for
methods to deter chewing-they love paper, rocks,
coral,broken glass, various carcasses-you get the drift.
Now that I've gotten over the potty thing and have
aggressive behaviour under control, I'm working on
their attention span and small commands. Obedience
will happen after Christmas but now my criteria for a
class is alot different.
My last dog(mutt) was great- not food or fear
motivated, well socialized and extremely flexible
but she was born like that. This is the temperament
I'm going for and I was feeling like maybe I was in
over my head.
Now that I've rethought their motivations, things are
alot easier.
They used to poop just to get a rise out of me-bad
attention being better than no attention of course.
Now they only do it if they are really furious with me.
Thanks 1000 times for opening my eyes and don't let
those assholes get you down. I can't be the only
person that sees the sense in your methods. I'm in
Windsor, Ontario, Canada and pass your info to
anyone it might help.
Just in discussion I've gotten a pretty good response
from some of this. A customer recently purchased
a Shiba Inu and I suspect she may be in for a wild ride.
This is a breed that I suspect may respond particularly
well to mutual respect style training. The alpha
complex (as I now call it) is likely to really provoke
the dog's naturally competitive nature. Thanks, Jeremy.
===================
Doggy Do Right and Jerry Howe
I just recently looked at this newsgroup and I found it
incredible. I do have a Doggy Do Right and have had it
for about one year. It truly does work - at least on my
Dobe, Chelsea.
Chelsea was the unhappy recipient of several
failed attempts at obedience training, both in a "class"
environment and with a personal trainer. She is very
high spirited and strong and, unfortunately, spoiled,
since we are an older couple who doted on our dog.
We were lucky enough to find Jerry Howe and to
not only buy a Doggy Do Right, but to also
have him personally work with Chelsea.
His methods are wonderful and effective. Chelsea is not
a dog that you will bully, and I wouldn't dream of
hurting her. After Jerry spent time with her, she no
longer jumped on furniture, ate food off the counter,
pulled me incessantly on the leash.
She is calmer and we are all happier. Well, it is a very
long story and I won't bore you with all the details, but
suffice it to say that Jerry Howe saved the day for our
dog and for us.
Marge Hoffman. (REWARD PAID BY DW.)
P.S. You can send me the reward money, but I won't sell
you my DDR!
=================
> misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6946-3B6...@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring. Two dogs,
> two collars We now have one dog and no collars.
> Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come back
> in the yard and would run for days. The last time, Peach didn't
> come back home.
> I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how to train my dog.
> She is now border trained. A few minutes each day reinforces
> her desire to stay in the yard. She no longer runs out into the
> road, I can stop her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes
> when we walk around the yard.
> I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the e-fence and
> its collars. If you can't get a regular fence then you need to
> train your dog. I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my
> dog in our yard again. The price was too high:-(
> ~misty
Dave Cohen <coh...@total.net writes:
Re: Barking Deterrants Needed...
Hi. Please understand that I do not know Jerry and have
spoken with him briefly once by email.
I have no stake or interest in the success of his
business. I simply want to thank him publicly for one
of his tips, with regards to separation anxiety.
I thought it seemed far fetched to praise a stuffed
animal and then say good bye to my own dog, but
I am usually a very open minded person, so I tried it.
Well, lo and behold- the damn trick worked!
I think Jerry has some intriguing techniques, and
personally I think everyone who constantly criticizes
him is not understanding his logic. Thank you Jerry!
========================
<"Terri"@cyberhighway
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs
since I freely admit to having read and, I hope,
understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by
John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.
This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage
of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly
adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the
nagging idea that if people like them had been posting
earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head
of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was
given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he
gasped his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog
into good behavior. Naive is believing that people that
hide behind fake names are more honest than people that
use their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante
dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey
(lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than
those that have studied and lived by their craft for
decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing
that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are
going to just go away because you people act like fools.
Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I
don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and
> actually admit to buying and having success with his
> little black box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming
> to him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)
Leah
>One guy parks, opens the back door of his gleaming Rolls, and reveals
>a really disreputable IW\mix reclining on the buttery leather.
> "What kind of dog is that?" he's asked.
> " A Wal-Mart," he says. "At least, that's where I found him."
Ah, so I finally know what Murphy is! She's a
Parking-Lot-Between-Borders-and-Macaroni-Grill! :}
A lot of people question whether or not Madigan is a purebred BC. I think it's
even harder with a BC, because they're not as standardized a breed as those
normally shown in conformance trials. Being bred for performance instead of
appearance, their size, markings, and coat can vary quite a bit.
Madigan does look quite a bit like the BCs in "Babe" in ways, but she's also
taller, thinner, and with a shorter coat than people expect to see.
I had somebody ask me if she was an Aussie. I did *not* state the obvious. :}
See My Furry Family At:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/dogs0
Learn How to Can Spam
http://www.whew.com/Spammers/reportspam_stepbystep.shtml
Internet Secrets, 2nd Edition, by John Levine (All About Spam, p. 277)
Leah
wrote:
>I can see why people would guess that a smooth collie is a
>collie/greyhound mix. Sean (rough collie) is built very
>like a greyhound - you'd never know it underneath all that
>fur, though. :)
>
>He looks like a very much larger dog than he really is.
I used to shave my rough during the summers here in Florida. We didn't have
very good a/c, he was older and mostly stayed inside. We didn't do anything
fancy with him - just shaved ALL his fur off close. Not very attractive, but
he loved it - would always get more energetic afterwards.
But he looked nothing like a greyhound. He looked like a cow. :}
Jenn
"Pat Meadows" <p...@meadows.pair.com> wrote in message
news:vgpoau0ph0l6h23n4...@4ax.com...
> On 4 Apr 2002 03:35:06 GMT, Rocky <3...@rocky-dog.com> wrote:
>
>
> As someone who enjoys photography, I'm so glad my dogs are
> well.
>
> It must be VERY frustrating for their owners.
>
> Pat
>
Both my dogs are black, and I have *very* few good photos of them. And I
take pics of them with my digital weekly. I end up deleting most, if not
all.
Jenn S
J1Boss
>well.
>
>It must be VERY frustrating for their owners.
>
>Pat
Good lighting and B&W film! Very hard to photograph both a gold dog and a
black dog at the same time - I often wind up with a gold dog and a tongue next
to it! ;-D
Janet Boss
Best Friends Dog Obedience
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
Voted "Best of Baltimore 2001" - Baltimore Magazine
shelly
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020404150236...@mb-fm.aol.com...
> Good lighting and B&W film!
taking outdoor pictures on an overcast day helps, also. (a tip i also
give for taking slides of artwork.) bright sun washes out colors, but
on an overcast day the colors are more rich and saturated. i've gotten
*great* outdoor pictures of black animals when it was cloudy.