need serious help re dog & cat standoff-LONG
cate
because nothing has worked. Orson the dog is still exhibiting high prey
drive around Emily the cat. I'm at my wit's end with the animal management
we do on a daily basis.
Is anyone interested in offering some suggestions on working with Orson to
make this go more smoothly?
Here's the animal management part: Emily has the basement as her safe area
and it's where her food & box are. She has constant access to both the
basement and the rest of the house. She will only come out of the basement
if Orson is outside in the back yard, off the property, upstairs two floors
away, or in his crate--which he sleeps in every night. Orson has free run of
the house. The kitchen is where Emily's basement access is, but it also has
the back door which leads to the back yard--featured heavily in the daily
routine for Orson's potty breaks, etc. So the dog is constantly running past
the cat's safe area access.
Here's what we've tried:
- Feeding Orson treats (on sit-stay) while the cat is in the same room. This
worked fine and I think it could've been a great start, but the cat has
stopped voluntarily being in the same room. If it had continued well, I
would've progressed to putting him on down-stay and feeding, then down-stay
and feeding only intermittently, then not feeding at all. But it's moot
anyway.
- Exposed them to each other while 1) they're both in crates and 2) he's in
a crate but she's not. He was given treats in an attempt to ignore her, but
every time she moves, he starts to either lunge or growl or bark at her. All
she wants to do is become invisible. I've tried this 5 times over the course
of several weeks, and she has never gotten more confident about it. She's
never gotten past the point where, when I open her carrier door, she does
anything but make for the door (which I keep closed for a while to force her
to stay in the room and then after a few minutes open).
- When they accidentally end up in the same room (I put it that way because
the cat is very vigilant about listening for his footfalls and pre-empting
any interaction by disappearing), it's almost invariable that we don't even
find out about it (don't see her b/c she's hiding) until the cat gets
spooked and starts running toward the basement, which sets Orson off. We, in
our excited and surprised state, end up yelling NO and SIT and STAY. He
always obeys, but because we're caught off guard, it's always AFTER the
chase has begun.
NBs:
- We can't keep Orson on leash all the time in the house; he has skin
problems and isn't supposed to have a collar on except when necessary.
- Orson has significant sight problems. Perhaps part of his prey drive is
driven by the extra jolt he gets by the cat darting in and out of his field
of vision?
- FWIW, Orson is not possessive of toys or food.
- The cat has always been timid, but it's gotten much worse (if she were a
dog I'd say she had fear aggression--she bites), ever since we brought Orson
home.
Can anyone help? I feel like my life is all about animal management. I
currently work at home but am looking for a job away from the house, so
anything I can do to prepare for leaving them alone in the house all day
together would be great.
Whew.
Cate
Janice
Don't even try to leave them together. With some dogs, cats are just their
normal prey unless they are brought up together from the beginning. I don't
think there is much you can do to change that.
Note though I read this book where the author had a similar problem with one
dog. Seems he had a friend with a "BIG" cat of the wild variety and they
agreed to try the "scare" tactic. The cat was in a cage in the friends house
and the author brought his dog over and let him enter on his own. He ran
charging at the cat but suddenly turned and split, tail between his legs.
After that he didn't chase another cat <G>
"cate" <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote in message
news:JGXH5.54120$JS3.7...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
: I've posted about this a few times before, and now I'm doing so again
:
:
Cindy Tittle Moore
cate <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote:
>NBs:
>- We can't keep Orson on leash all the time in the house; he has skin
>problems and isn't supposed to have a collar on except when necessary.
Well, you may have to sit down and think long and hard about what
"necessary" is. I don't think you're going to get much further
without using a leash at this point. It sounds to me like Orson can
probably be trained to leave the cat alone, but not at your current
level of dealing with the problem.
Some random bits of advice: Work on Orson's sit and here separately,
to reinforce them and get him to a better level of compliance. You
didn't say, but if you'remostly trying to get him to sit/come when
he's chasing the cat, he won't do a good job of it. And if you have
been, you need to work on it some more, since he's clearly not doing
them when sufficient distraction (eg, cat) is present.
I'd try some conditioning to install a different response when he sees
the cat. Since it's an active reaction, the counter needs to be
something active. In other words, trying to teach him to sit when he
sees the cat instead of chasing is probably not going to work. Put
him on a leash, and when he sees the cat, call him to you, so he's
moving toward you rather than the cat (and reward him liberally when
he gets to you even if you dragged him every inch back to you). It
would help if the cat didn't bolt, but I can't help you there. With
patience, the cat may learn that he doesn't need to bolt, but ...
Have you tried baby gates to disrupt the chase?
In addition, I do not think that you will get to the point where you
can safely leave them alone together while you are gone. You will need
to separate them then , either by crating Orson, or closing off parts of
the house between them.
--Cindy
TO...@dog-play.com
<snip details>
> Can anyone help? I feel like my life is all about animal management. I
> currently work at home but am looking for a job away from the house, so
> anything I can do to prepare for leaving them alone in the house all day
> together would be great.
I have no help to offer. Please don't even consider leaving them alone in
the house all day together, ever. Under the circumstances as you
describe them here is no training program that will make your dog safe
with your cat when they are unsupervised. Sometimes despite our wishes,
and our best intentions, two pets cannot get along. I understand the
desire to have a lower management burden. At this point I would focus all
attention on getting the dog's behavior under control when you are
present (sounds like you're doing a pretty good job) and work at avoiding
any contact or confrontation between dog and cat. Abandon the idea of
trying to make them get along. Your ability to train for the "not
chasing" behavior will depend on your ability to deprive the dog of the
occasional reward of the chase. Intermittent rewards strengthen
behavior. Getting the chance to chase is a reward. Once you abandon the
idea of getting the to get along you are more free to choose management
styles that virtually eliminate the opportunity for a chase.
Diane Blackman
http://www.dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
Re: Jerry Howe http://www.dog-play.com/jerry.html
http://www.dissension.com/logic/adhominem.html
cate
news:7mZH5.46451$Ly1.5...@news5.giganews.com...
> In article <JGXH5.54120$JS3.7...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>,
> cate <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote:
> >NBs:
> >- We can't keep Orson on leash all the time in the house; he has skin
> >problems and isn't supposed to have a collar on except when necessary.
>
> Well, you may have to sit down and think long and hard about what
> "necessary" is. I don't think you're going to get much further
> without using a leash at this point.
I should've added these two things: Orson's not usually in the same room
with me during the day. He usually spends the day downstairs, closer to the
basement where the cat hangs out, so just leashing him wouldn't accomplish
the same thing as confining him to be near me (which I can hear you saying I
need to commit to doing).
The other thing is that the frequency of the cat's accidental appearance in
Orson's presence is very low. Maybe once a month.
It sounds to me like Orson can
> probably be trained to leave the cat alone, but not at your current
> level of dealing with the problem.
Yes. I must make a commitment to keep him nearer to me during the day.
> Some random bits of advice: Work on Orson's sit and here separately,
> to reinforce them and get him to a better level of compliance. You
> didn't say, but if you'remostly trying to get him to sit/come when
> he's chasing the cat, he won't do a good job of it. And if you have
> been, you need to work on it some more, since he's clearly not doing
> them when sufficient distraction (eg, cat) is present.
Right. We do make him sit and stay all the time--for his meals, for putting
on the collar and leash, for treats, and at random times without treating.
Come, though, is another story. This is something we've been lazy with,
because we've been thinking his level of compliance is good enough for daily
lives. He currently comes reliably IF there are no distractions--which is to
say he comes only some of the time.
> I'd try some conditioning to install a different response when he sees
> the cat. Since it's an active reaction, the counter needs to be
> something active. In other words, trying to teach him to sit when he
> sees the cat instead of chasing is probably not going to work. Put
> him on a leash, and when he sees the cat, call him to you, so he's
> moving toward you rather than the cat (and reward him liberally when
> he gets to you even if you dragged him every inch back to you). It
> would help if the cat didn't bolt, but I can't help you there. With
> patience, the cat may learn that he doesn't need to bolt, but ...
I really have a chicken-or-the-egg problem here. With work, I could
condition a different response in Orson. But with the cat not showing up
except on very rare occasions, there is little to condition him against.
This is the main sticking point. How can I train him to respond a certain
way to her if he never sees her? Maybe I should just take my vet tech's
suggestion to put the cat in a crate and have the dog 'sniff her out.' I
dismissed it as too traumatic for the cat, but maybe if it were part of
conditioning exercises for the dog...
> Have you tried baby gates to disrupt the chase?
Much of our house has an open floor plan, making their use moot there. The
chase has never occurred in the non-open parts.
> In addition, I do not think that you will get to the point where you
> can safely leave them alone together while you are gone. You will need
> to separate them then , either by crating Orson, or closing off parts of
> the house between them.
Yes. This isn't really an issue for this ng, but I'm trying to work out a
plan where I can do it some other way than further confining the cat to the
basement, and yet not crating the dog all day. We have a third floor that he
likes; it's like a garret. Maybe this is the answer. In fact, maybe the
answer is somehow enlarging the cat's domain first so she'll show up more,
then conditioning the dog to her presence. Now if only I could get him
straight out the third floor to the back yard for pee breaks...
Thanks for your feedback.
Cate
cate
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 13:22:49 GMT cate
<Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> whittled these words:
> <snip details>
>
> > Can anyone help? I feel like my life is all about animal management. I
> > currently work at home but am looking for a job away from the house, so
> > anything I can do to prepare for leaving them alone in the house all day
> > together would be great.
>
> I have no help to offer. Please don't even consider leaving them alone in
> the house all day together, ever. Under the circumstances as you
> describe them here is no training program that will make your dog safe
> with your cat when they are unsupervised.
The basement door is held open just a crack, 24/7, just enough for her to
get through. It's held open by a rubber door stopper, wedged very tightly
under. The dog has never tried to open the door or get into the basement,
even though he's aware she's down there. What I meant by 'leave them alone'
but didn't spell out was a consideration of leaving the door open that crack
while I'm gone. But I think even that is wishful thinking.
The one time they've ever been in close proximity gave me no hope whatsoever
that they'll ever be cuddle buddies. He had his mouth open and directly over
her spine, about to pick her up. And she was just cowering, not defending
herself. I do not trust him with her at all. And that's why he'll probably
always sleep in his crate at night, so she can wander the house and sleep in
our room.
Your ability to train for the "not
> chasing" behavior will depend on your ability to deprive the dog of the
> occasional reward of the chase. Intermittent rewards strengthen
> behavior. Getting the chance to chase is a reward.
Is the reward actually getting the chance to chase, or is it the end result
of her being gone?
Once you abandon the
> idea of getting the to get along
I think this is where I'm headed.
Cate
Cindy Tittle Moore
cate <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote:
>I should've added these two things: Orson's not usually in the same room
>with me during the day. He usually spends the day downstairs, closer to the
>basement where the cat hangs out, so just leashing him wouldn't accomplish
>the same thing as confining him to be near me (which I can hear you saying I
>need to commit to doing).
Well, if you're going to take the trouble to solve the problem...yeah.
>The other thing is that the frequency of the cat's accidental appearance in
>Orson's presence is very low. Maybe once a month.
Worse, in a way. Intermittant rewards can be very powerful.
>Right. We do make him sit and stay all the time--for his meals, for putting
>on the collar and leash, for treats, and at random times without treating.
>Come, though, is another story. This is something we've been lazy with,
>because we've been thinking his level of compliance is good enough for daily
>lives. He currently comes reliably IF there are no distractions--which is to
>say he comes only some of the time.
I'd work on the come, then.
>I really have a chicken-or-the-egg problem here. With work, I could
>condition a different response in Orson. But with the cat not showing up
>except on very rare occasions, there is little to condition him against.
Hm, yes, that makes it trickier. Working on the come, especially
with distractions as he gets better (eg, when he improves,s tart working
on it out in parks with plenty of people walking by and so on).
>This is the main sticking point. How can I train him to respond a certain
>way to her if he never sees her? Maybe I should just take my vet tech's
>suggestion to put the cat in a crate and have the dog 'sniff her out.' I
>dismissed it as too traumatic for the cat, but maybe if it were part of
>conditioning exercises for the dog...
Hard to say, without knowing your cat.
>Maybe this is the answer. In fact, maybe the
>answer is somehow enlarging the cat's domain first so she'll show up more,
>then conditioning the dog to her presence. Now if only I could get him
>straight out the third floor to the back yard for pee breaks...
Sounds to me like you have a pretty good grasp of the overall problem
and some good ideas to try when you think about them. I think with
patience you'll work something out. Maybe what you need is
reassurance that patience is likely to pay off...! :-)
They do make extra wide babygates, so perhaps there's still some way
to temporarly alter the open floor plan to accomplish the above.
--Cindy
Cindy Tittle Moore
cate <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote:
>Is the reward actually getting the chance to chase, or is it the end result
>of her being gone?
Could be either depending on the dog. From your description, I'd lean
toward the former being true in your case.
--Cindy
cate
> In article <WZZH5.54690$JS3.7...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>,
> cate <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote:
>
> >I really have a chicken-or-the-egg problem here. With work, I could
> >condition a different response in Orson. But with the cat not showing up
> >except on very rare occasions, there is little to condition him against.
>
> Hm, yes, that makes it trickier. Working on the come, especially
> with distractions as he gets better (eg, when he improves,s tart working
> on it out in parks with plenty of people walking by and so on).
Yes. I have the Kilcommons book but haven't used it much. Do you recommend
his method for teaching come? (DH the untrainer did an obedience class with
Orson, where his come was only ok. Other than that, I've only worked a bit
with him on come, by making sure he keeps me in visual contact by moving in
the opposite direction.)
> Sounds to me like you have a pretty good grasp of the overall problem
> and some good ideas to try when you think about them. I think with
> patience you'll work something out. Maybe what you need is
> reassurance that patience is likely to pay off...! :-)
Guilty as charged. :o)
> They do make extra wide babygates, so perhaps there's still some way
> to temporarly alter the open floor plan to accomplish the above.
I wonder if 12ft-wide ones are made. Don't happen to have a manufacturer
name, do you?
Cate
J1Boss
>I should've added these two things: Orson's not usually in the same room
>with me during the day. He usually spends the day downstairs, closer to the
>basement where the cat hangs out, so just leashing him wouldn't accomplish
>the same thing as confining him to be near me (which I can hear you saying I
>need to commit to doing).
I've always held the opinion that a dog who chooses to spend time in another
area of the home, away from the owner, is less responsive to that owner's
wishes (i.e. - less "obedient"). Dogs who can be independent, but PREFER to
spend time near their owners, are by and large, more responsive to their
owner's requests.
I'd start out by keeping Orson in the same room with you while you work. That
alone may make a difference in how well he listens to you telling him to leave
the cat alone.
My office is in the lower level of my home. I don't think there's anytime I'm
in here without all (whatever number is here, usually just my 2) dogs and at
least one cat (who sits on my lap and intereferes with typing, but he's 17, so
I indulge him!). It's pretty rare for a dog to be anywhere but near me (their
choice as well as mine), and the cats are generally there too!
Janet Boss
Best Friends Dog Obedience
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
"Second-hand dogs AREN'T second-rate"
see Lucy at: http://www.flyball.com/nsl/
shelly
<Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote:
>I wonder if 12ft-wide ones are made. Don't happen to have a manufacturer
>name, do you?
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=739
the basic one is only 5' wide, but you can fit it with
extension panels to make it up to 13' wide. it's a little
pricey, but it might work for what you need.
shelly and elliott & harriet
http://members.home.net/scouvrette/index/
--
I recommend to all rpdb readers that Jerry Howe
should be ignored as a crank and waste of time
shelly
>My office is in the lower level of my home. I don't think there's anytime I'm
>in here without all (whatever number is here, usually just my 2) dogs and at
>least one cat (who sits on my lap and intereferes with typing, but he's 17, so
>I indulge him!). It's pretty rare for a dog to be anywhere but near me (their
>choice as well as mine), and the cats are generally there too!
that's how it is at my house. the dogs *and* the cats hang
out in the same room with me.
i think it was a huge advantage for dog-cat relations at my
house to have Mistress Eeevil Kitty in charge of the Puppy
Welcome Wagon <G>. she's a total terror and doesn't put up
with *anything* from the dogs. she's trained both dogs quite
nicely (as well as some not-so-cat-friendly guests' dogs, i
might add).
i don't know if this is a good or bad idea for Cate, but do
you know anyone who has a big, feisty cat who is really
dog-savvy? maybe it would help to introduce Orson (on-lead,
of course) to a cat who won't put up with any nonsense??? (a
word of caution, though--cats' claws are *very*bad* for dogs'
eyes. elliott and i learned that the hard way.)
Cindy Tittle Moore
cate <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote:
>Yes. I have the Kilcommons book but haven't used it much. Do you recommend
>his method for teaching come? (DH the untrainer did an obedience class with
>Orson, where his come was only ok. Other than that, I've only worked a bit
>with him on come, by making sure he keeps me in visual contact by moving in
>the opposite direction.)
There's a lot of different ways to teach the come. The basics are to always
praise when he arrives at your side, no matter how much of an effort it was
to get him at your side, and to be consistent (eg, if you call him and he
blows it off, don't let him get away with that).
>I wonder if 12ft-wide ones are made. Don't happen to have a manufacturer
>name, do you?
I've seen them in RC Steele, Drs Foster & Smith and other mail order
catalogues.
--Cindy
WebbWeave
Maybe I should just take my vet tech's
suggestion to put the cat in a crate and have the dog 'sniff her out.' I
dismissed it as too traumatic for the cat, but maybe if it were part of
conditioning exercises for the dog...
This is more along the lines of what I was going to suggest.
I'm thinking -- if the cat feels she's in danger, she will avoid the problem --
and I gather that's what she does most of the time.
Are we worried here about Orson chasing Emily, or about Orson EATING Emily?
Most cats, I've found, may not *like* being chased -- but they will *really*
stay out of the picture (to the point of disappearing) if they think they are
going to be eaten. They know this better than we do.
If Orson and Emily can be confined near each other, it might help with
familiarization.
If it's just the chasing, not the eating, why not just let it happen? If Orson
corners her or gets too close, she'll let him have it and pprobably discourage
further chasing. Or -- she may secretly like it. She may like the fact that he
gets in trouble when he chases her. Cats are sneaky this way
Not attributing such underhandedness to Emily, mind you -- but you might think
of it as a possibility.
Jane Webb
& Moonpie & Raisin Pie
WebbWeave
Is the reward actually getting the chance to chase, or is it the end result
of her being gone?
The chase. He hasn't a concept of her being gone.
Carol Levie
I've read everyone's responses and can't add much. I, too, have a very timid cat
and went through pure hell trying to get the cat and Shayna to accept each
other. For the first six or seven months that I had Shayna, she was on leash the
entire time the cat was out...which wasn't often! I work from home, so this was
almost constant. In desperation...around month three...I tried a suggestion
given to me by a behaviorist:
Shayna was put in her crate (my bedroom...also the cat's room). I blocked off
all hiding places for the cat. That was a pain...it meant taking my bed off the
frame so he couldn't get under the bed. Closed the door and left them alone
together for eight hours a day (potty breaks for Shayna) for three weeks. I
admit I had grave misgivings about doing this. I thought it might traumatize the
already-timid cat or bring out even more of Shayna's prey drive. It wasn't a
cure but it definitely helped. After the third week, Domingo (cat) started
coming out of the bedroom more often, affording me the opportunity to give
Shayna voice and leash corrections when she even started to think about chasing
the cat. (I swear Shayna thought her new name was "leave it!")
When Shayna finally started to understand that cat-chasing was not allowed, she
graduated to a tab leash and finally to complete freedom. The entire process
took about seven months. Domingo is still a little nervous about running when
Shayna's around, but comes and goes freely and even will allow Shayna to sniff
him and lick him. It's still not an ideal situation, but at least it's tolerable
for all concerned. Perhaps someday Shayna will lose interest in the cat.
I don't know if the behaviorist's suggestion will work in your case, but it's
something you may want to consider.
Carol
cate wrote:
> NBs:
> - We can't keep Orson on leash all the time in the house; he has skin
> problems and isn't supposed to have a collar on except when necessary.
> - Orson has significant sight problems. Perhaps part of his prey drive is
> driven by the extra jolt he gets by the cat darting in and out of his field
> of vision?
> - FWIW, Orson is not possessive of toys or food.
> - The cat has always been timid, but it's gotten much worse (if she were a
> dog I'd say she had fear aggression--she bites), ever since we brought Orson
> home.
>
> Can anyone help? I feel like my life is all about animal management. I
> currently work at home but am looking for a job away from the house, so
> anything I can do to prepare for leaving them alone in the house all day
> together would be great.
>
> Whew.
> Cate
cate
news:20001020132956...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
> Are we worried here about Orson chasing Emily, or about Orson EATING
Emily?
The latter. As I posted in another message in this thread, the one time he
cornered her, she cowered without putting up even one claw or tooth, and he
had his mouth open and right over her back, ready to pick her up, IMO.
> Most cats, I've found, may not *like* being chased -- but they will
*really*
> stay out of the picture (to the point of disappearing) if they think they
are
> going to be eaten.
This is indeed what's going on, I think.
Or -- she may secretly like it. She may like the fact that he
> gets in trouble when he chases her. Cats are sneaky this way
> Not attributing such underhandedness to Emily, mind you
Oh, she's plenty sneaky, alright. But re the fear of being eaten--I don't
think she likes it much.
Cate
cate
news:20001020131323...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
>
> I'd start out by keeping Orson in the same room with you while you work.
That
> alone may make a difference in how well he listens to you telling him to
leave
> the cat alone.
Hm. Didn't think of it this way.
He doesn't seem TOO independent (he comes to check on me periodically and
occasionally will choose to nap in his crate in my office); the comfy
furniture is both downstairs from me and upstairs from me. So are the
windows at his eye level. He can't guard the neighborhood from the second
floor.
Cate
cate
> Quote:
> Is the reward actually getting the chance to chase, or is it the end
result
> of her being gone?
>
> The chase. He hasn't a concept of her being gone.
Really? I'm operating on the analogy of the chase-the-mailman game. Dog
barks at mailman, mailman leaves. Isn't the reward that the dog's barking
caused the mailman to leave? Or is the agitation at the irritant--the
mailman--the reward?
Cate
cate
news:j201vs8dg7ma0i4ll...@4ax.com...
>
> i don't know if this is a good or bad idea for Cate, but do
> you know anyone who has a big, feisty cat who is really
> dog-savvy? maybe it would help to introduce Orson (on-lead,
> of course) to a cat who won't put up with any nonsense??? (a
> word of caution, though--cats' claws are *very*bad* for dogs'
> eyes. elliott and i learned that the hard way.)
I think it's a great idea. Sometimes when we walk on-leash around the
neighborhood, we pass this bruiser of a cat. This tough-ass cat doesn't even
move off the sidewalk, and nonchalantly bats at him when he tries to get in
close to sniff her (he's on a very short lead at this point). Each episode
has resulted in Orson getting the picture after the third swat, but each new
episode seems to carry no memory of past interactions for him.
Cate
cate
news:39F08273...@att.net...
>
> Shayna was put in her crate (my bedroom...also the cat's room). I blocked
off
> all hiding places for the cat. That was a pain...it meant taking my bed
off the
> frame so he couldn't get under the bed. Closed the door and left them
alone
> together for eight hours a day (potty breaks for Shayna) for three weeks.
I
> admit I had grave misgivings about doing this. I thought it might
traumatize the
> already-timid cat or bring out even more of Shayna's prey drive. It wasn't
a
> cure but it definitely helped. After the third week, Domingo (cat) started
> coming out of the bedroom more often, affording me the opportunity to give
> Shayna voice and leash corrections when she even started to think about
chasing
> the cat. (I swear Shayna thought her new name was "leave it!")
This is encouraging. I remember your posting about this problem before; I
think we even commiserated about it. Even though I did try this a few times
without obvious success, perhaps I need to be more patient with it, along
with conditioning the dog separately from these episodes. Plus, my leaving
the room and not witnessing the cat's trauma would probably help a lot. I
recognize that a lot of the problem for me is my worry about the emotional
states of the animals. Probably if I hadn't worried about this so much in
the beginning--but still paid attention to keeping the cat safe--we'd be
much further along in this process now.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Cate
J1Boss
the one time he
>cornered her, she cowered without putting up even one claw or tooth, and he
>had his mouth open and right over her back, ready to pick her up, IMO.
*** Hmmmm - obviously I can't say what is going on, since I can't see them, but
that doesn't really sound like "eating" behavior.
Dogs who want to kill cats are usually pretty driven, and it doesn't take as
long as a cat cowering and a mouth on their back.
My first dog tried to kill my first cat. No doubt about it. We worked for 2
weeks, him on a leash (and yes - a horrid choke collar - nylon I believe), her
brought into the room. He'd sniff, she'd hiss, he'd attack, he'd get a big
correction. Praise for not reacting or ignoring. She was only a little kitten
at the time. The dog was 10 years old. The whole ordeal gave her a swelled
head - she thought she RULED dogs after that! She would eat food from his dish
(while he was eating), take rawhide chips out of his mouth, generally get away
with anything. He knew that any prey behavior wouldn't be tolerated. The
second cat (now 17, the first died from heart disease at 10) moved in as a 2-3
year old like he lived there all his life, and the dog never bothered him in
the least.
They were separated during the day while we were at work (in those days, he was
kept in an area with access to the dog door, which she didn't get to use), but
both had free roam all evening and night when we were home, after the initial 2
week period. We really forced the issue by all being in the same room each
evening for those first few weeks - we kept sessions short and took breaks.
Letting her (the kitten) retreat may have made this take forever.
I know Orson has trouble wearing a collar all of the time, but a nylon slip
collar with attached leash may be a very workable setup.
These days, Franklin just bathes the cats' ears and heads, while Lucy attempts
play bows with the 7 year old. Very goofy, but they all have free access to
each other practically 24/7 (Franklin is crated overnight for a few more weeks,
and when I'm not home for ???, since he's only 14 weeks old!), and live in
harmony.
cate
> >From: "cate"
>
> the one time he
> >cornered her, she cowered without putting up even one claw or tooth, and
he
> >had his mouth open and right over her back, ready to pick her up, IMO.
>
> *** Hmmmm - obviously I can't say what is going on, since I can't see
them, but
> that doesn't really sound like "eating" behavior.
> Dogs who want to kill cats are usually pretty driven, and it doesn't take
as
> long as a cat cowering and a mouth on their back.
Yeah, I'm definitely projecting my emotions on this. I guess he'd have
killed her if he wanted to that time. He definitely had the opportunity.
> I know Orson has trouble wearing a collar all of the time, but a nylon
slip
> collar with attached leash may be a very workable setup.
Aha, it might just. *After* I expand the cat's domain so she actually shows
up from time to time, so I can *then* correct Orson for chasing her.
Cate
WebbWeave
the analogy of the chase-the-mailman game
Good thought, but the mailman (a) comes and goes every day, and (b) doesn't
scurry-scamper away in an appealing manner.
You thought Orson wanted to eat Emily (I agree with Janet that if he *really*
wanted to, he could have by now) not chase her AWAY. Chase, yes -- but she
doesn't go away, she just goes.
That's just wonderful -- something that "goes" when you holler at it.
TRISHCAMP
chasing Emily, that it's a B-A-D thing?
When my guys became "teens", Sam (high prey drive, the bird & squirrel killer)
started to harass my Frank cat. When I caught him doing it (and I watched for
it), I grabbed him, got in his face and spoke to him sternly. He learned
pretty quickly that it wasn't allowed--what am I missing here?
Trish
cate
news:20001020193726...@ng-cr1.aol.com...
That Orson's seen Emily less than 10 times. With her not showing up on the
scene much, there's no correcting of the dog that can be done.
Cate
Jerry Howe
"Cindy Tittle Moore" <tit...@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
news:7mZH5.46451$Ly1.5...@news5.giganews.com...
> In article <JGXH5.54120$JS3.7...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>,
> cate <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote:
> >NBs:
> >- We can't keep Orson on leash all the time in the house; he has
skin
> >problems and isn't supposed to have a collar on except when
necessary.
> Well, you may have to sit down and think long and hard about what
> "necessary" is.
Necessary is twisting and pinching ears and toes and shocking and
beating dogs with sticks to MOTIVATE them, to ENHANCE THE BOND, between
"trainer" and dog.
> I don't think you're going to get much further without using a leash
at this point.
That's because all YOU understand is HURTING DOGS to "train" them.
> It sounds to me like Orson can probably be trained to leave the cat
alone, but not at your
> current level of dealing with the problem.
Yup. Need to increase the PAIN. You remind me of Mr. T, but not as
intelligent or as pretty.
> Some random bits of advice: Work on Orson's sit and here separately,
> to reinforce them and get him to a better level of compliance.
Compliance. Sits. Control. Force. Domination.
> You didn't say, but if you'remostly trying to get him to sit/come
when
> he's chasing the cat, he won't do a good job of it.
Because they do not KNOW HOWE. Neither do YOU, or you wouldn't HURT
DOGS to "train" them. Did I already say that? You wouldn't HURT DOGS to
"train" them if you weren't a SADISTIC, CONTROL FREAK.
> And if you have been, you need to work on it some more, since he's
clearly not doing
> them when sufficient distraction (eg, cat) is present.
GOT ANY SUGGESTIONS, DUMMY??? This isn't as simple as shoving your
greasy fingers down a puppy's throat to choke IT out of mouthing.
> I'd try some conditioning to install a different response when he
sees
> the cat.
Tell us exactly WHAT KIND of "conditioning" you would instill??? Your
koehler book recommends striking the dog across the snout with a
rubber hose REAL HARD, to CONDITION him.
> Since it's an active reaction, the counter needs to be
> something active.
JERKING, CHOKING, SHOCKING, TWISTING, PINCHING, AND BEATING???
> In other words, trying to teach him to sit when he
> sees the cat instead of chasing is probably not going to work.
Because all you appreciate is PAIN.
> Put him on a leash, and when he sees the cat, call him to you, so
he's
> moving toward you rather than the cat (and reward him liberally when
> he gets to you even if you dragged him every inch back to you).
THERE YA GO! You're a dog trainer? No, you're a DOG ABUSER.
> It would help if the cat didn't bolt, but I can't help you there.
You mean like you've HELPED SO FAR???
> With patience, the cat may learn that he doesn't need to bolt, but
...
Patience will NOT make you a competent dog trainer.
YOU NEED INTELLIGENCE. YOU NEED INFORMATION.
You fall short on BOTH counts.
> Have you tried baby gates to disrupt the chase?
More of the same.
> In addition, I do not think that you will get to the point where you
> can safely leave them alone together while you are gone.
Because all you understand is DRAG THE DOG AWAY from the cat. janet
boss has recommended jerking and choking a dog like this with a pronged
choke collar to make IT FRIENDLY.
> You will need to separate them then , either by crating Orson, or
closing off parts of
> the house between them.
Yes, that's the STATE OF THE ART, eh cindymooreon???
> --Cindy
You're HISTORY here. Take that crappy k9web page, and shove it. Go. We
don't NEED "experts" telling us to confine, jerk, choke, shcok, twist
and pinch dog's ears and toes, to ENHANCE THE BOND between "trainer"
and dog...
This entire problem can be easily solved using sound distraction and
praise techniques.
You know, the kind that are in the Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com
By the way, what part of koehler do you like best?
I like the part where we get to tie the dog next to a housetraining
mistake, and BEAT HIM every twenty minutes for the same mistake.
Most of our rpdb regulars are devout koehler trainers. Here are
koehler's "solutions" for barking and housetraining, and ENDORSEMENTS
of koehler's methods by our Gang Of Thugs Members.
Ask PROFESSOR DERMER to tell us HOWE the dog understands
koehler coming back every twenty minutes to punish him again
for the same mistake he's tied him up next to, to housetrain him???
Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
Here's some good training tips from the same source cindy moore uses.
Koehler on correcting the Barking Dog
Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt
that you've conveniently placed, and descend on him.
He'll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and
reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or, if
he's a big dog, until you've snubbed him up with a hitch
on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or
even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.)
While he's held in close, lay the strap vigorously against
his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it's the
bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat
on the number of repeat performances that will
be necessary. When you're finished and the dog is
convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think
things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or
twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the
area again."
Koehler on correcting the housebreaking backslider.
"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will continue
to mess in the house. An indelible impression can
sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of
long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he's
made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals
and punish him again for the same thing. (Dogs are
REALLY stupid. J.H.)
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light
spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate
punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well
as the house, if you really pour it on him."
Gotta LOVE koehler. dahl makes koheler look like St. Francis.
Our professor of behavior Wisc. U., lyingdoc dermer
endorses koehler. (He said: "I punish dog's behavior,
NOT the dog."
You gonna believe THAT CRAP, PEOPLE???)
Ask PROFESSOR DERMER to tell us HOWE the dog understands
koehler coming back every twenty minutes to punish him again
for the same mistake he's tied him up next to, to housetrain him???
Go ahead and ASK HIM. The dirty COWARD won't talk to me about it.
He won't talk to Marilyn about it, and he can't say SHE'S been INCIVIL
WITH HIM. We know HOWE SENSITIVE our koehler trainers are...
HOWE does koehler KNOW the dog don't think he's coming back to beat him
every twenty minutes for the same mistake, just because you're mad at
him, instead of just TRAINING him???
See what I mean? You can't justify that.
Tell us HOWE the dog knows he shouldn't be barking? That is, until the
beatings take effect, after ENOUGH lessons?
Tell us HOWE COME you think dogs might want to take a big chunk out of
an abusive Thug who beats him every twenty minutes for crappin on the
floor in a room you've restricted him to for this purpose, and then
tied him next to a forced accident?
And when koehler OCCASIONALLY find a dog who objects to his training,
why does he HANG the dog, instead of calm them down and teach them
there's nothing to be afraid of???
That's the only question ANYONE of you CAN answer.
The answer is OBVIOUS.
koehler trainers are DOG ABUSING COWARDS
ron likes to use the heavy belt on his dogs
"Read koehler for content" Mark Shaw, Sadist, rpdb regular.
"I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn, pathological liar, noted dog abuser.
"There's much wisdom in koehler," deana pace. (Her dogs run away from
home.)
"Read koehler," lyingdogDUMMY. (koehler is all he understands.)
"Read koehler & cindymorons k-9 web faq's page," ludwig smith.
"Don't let him do that & read cindymooreon's web page," boob maida.
"I'm not a koehler trainer," cindymoron, lyinglynn,
lyingfrosty dahl. But they spout koehler's methods. They
don't consider themselves koehler trainers because they
shock, twist and pinch ears and toes, and BEAT DOGS
WITH STICKS to MOTIVATE them.
Jerry Howe
"cate" <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote in message
news:WZZH5.54690$JS3.7...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> "Cindy Tittle Moore" <tit...@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
> news:7mZH5.46451$Ly1.5...@news5.giganews.com...
> > In article <JGXH5.54120$JS3.7...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>,
> > cate <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote:
> > >NBs:
> > >- We can't keep Orson on leash all the time in the house; he has
skin
> > >problems and isn't supposed to have a collar on except when
necessary.
> >
> > Well, you may have to sit down and think long and hard about what
> > "necessary" is. I don't think you're going to get much further
> > without using a leash at this point.
> I should've added these two things: Orson's not usually in the same
room
> with me during the day. He usually spends the day downstairs, closer
to the
> basement where the cat hangs out, so just leashing him wouldn't
accomplish
> the same thing as confining him to be near me (which I can hear you
saying I
> need to commit to doing).
No, you should be committed for DOING that. You got it bassackwards.
> The other thing is that the frequency of the cat's accidental
appearance in
> Orson's presence is very low. Maybe once a month.
> >It sounds to me like Orson can
> > probably be trained to leave the cat alone, but not at your current
> > level of dealing with the problem.
That's going to require massive doses of PAIN.
> Yes. I must make a commitment to keep him nearer to me during the
day.
That might be painful enough.
> > Some random bits of advice: Work on Orson's sit and here
separately,
> > to reinforce them and get him to a better level of compliance. You
> > didn't say, but if you'remostly trying to get him to sit/come when
> > he's chasing the cat, he won't do a good job of it. And if you
have
> > been, you need to work on it some more, since he's clearly not
doing
> > them when sufficient distraction (eg, cat) is present.
> Right. We do make him sit and stay all the time--for his meals, for
putting
> on the collar and leash, for treats, and at random times without
treating.
Yes, you've done everything exactly right. Except IT DOESN'T WORK,
because you are trying to FORCE control. You are seeing ADVICE from a
vicious SADIST. cindymooreon HURTS DOGS because she has psychological
defects. She's a control freak, because she NEEDS to DOMINATE to feel
good about her miserable existance.
> Come, though, is another story. This is something we've been lazy
with,
> because we've been thinking his level of compliance is good enough
for daily
> lives.
No. It's because you DON'T KNOW HOWE to teach an instant recall,
because you've been listening to all the bums who jerk and choke dogs
to train them, because they are not bright enough to outwit a puppy
dog.
> He currently comes reliably IF there are no distractions--which is to
> say he comes only some of the time.
DUOH! My students get a reliable recall in about one hour. That's the
FIRST THING I ask, if they tell me the dog is doing soome inappropriate
behavior. IF THE DOG WON'T COME
INSTANTLY, you don't have a trained dog, and you should EXPECT TROUBLE.
> > I'd try some conditioning to install a different response when he
sees
> > the cat. Since it's an active reaction, the counter needs to be
> > something active. In other words, trying to teach him to sit when
he
> > sees the cat instead of chasing is probably not going to work. Put
> > him on a leash, and when he sees the cat, call him to you, so he's
> > moving toward you rather than the cat (and reward him liberally
when
> > he gets to you even if you dragged him every inch back to you). It
> > would help if the cat didn't bolt, but I can't help you there.
With
> > patience, the cat may learn that he doesn't need to bolt, but ...
> I really have a chicken-or-the-egg problem here.
No, you have an intellect deficiency problem.
> With work, I could condition a different response in Orson.
Yes. It would take you work. It doesn't take my students WORK, because
they LEARNED what to do. You don't understand a thing of what is
important here. You're on a wild goose chase, and you will always be
chasing your tail, until you smarten up.
> But with the cat not showing up except on very rare occasions, there
is little to condition
> him against.
THAT'S THE PROBLEM. You are looking at the micro aspects of the
behavior, instead of the entire scope of THE RELATIONSHIP, which
DICTATES BEHAVIOR.
It's all in the Wits' End Dog Training Method manual available for free
at http://www.doggydoright.com
> This is the main sticking point.
No. The sticking point is, you are seeking help from helpless people
who HURT DOGS to train them BECAUSE THEY AREN'T SMART ENOUGHT TO OUTWIT
A PUPPY DOG.
> How can I train him to respond a certain way to her if he never sees
her?
That's your problem. You are looking at the problem bassackwards, like
your PALS here do. THAT'S the other reason they HURT DOGS to "train"
them.
>Maybe I should just take my vet tech's suggestion to put the cat in a
crate and have the
> dog 'sniff her out.'
You mean desensitize the dog to the cat. MAKES SENSE. But you like to
force control, so continue to jerk and choke the dog to MAKE HIM
FRIENDLY.
> I dismissed it as too traumatic for the cat, but maybe if it were
part of
> conditioning exercises for the dog...
I'm outta here. I can't deal with blatant stupidity for prolonged
periods.
> > Have you tried baby gates to disrupt the chase?
> Much of our house has an open floor plan, making their use moot
there. The
> chase has never occurred in the non-open parts.
> > In addition, I do not think that you will get to the point where
you
> > can safely leave them alone together while you are gone. You will
need
> > to separate them then , either by crating Orson, or closing off
parts of
> > the house between them.
> Yes. This isn't really an issue for this ng,
Because that would require INTELLIGENCE???
> but I'm trying to work out a plan where I can do it some other way
than further confining
> the cat to the basement, and yet not crating the dog all day.
Your crating is largely RESPONSIBLE for the problem. Crating CAUSES
anxiety. Anxiety caused from crating is expiated by OTHER, seemingly
NON RELATED behavior problems, LIKE YOU GOT.
> We have a third floor that he likes; it's like a garret. Maybe this
is the answer. In fact,
> maybe the answer is somehow enlarging the cat's domain first so
she'll show up more,
> then conditioning the dog to her presence. Now if only I could get
him
> straight out the third floor to the back yard for pee breaks...
No. The solution is to FORGET everything you've been taught, throw out
your damn pronged choke collar, and stop crating your dog because you
don't know HOWE to handle and train him, and LEARN TO DO IT RIGHT.
> Thanks for your feedback.
That's just for starters. I haven't even addressed your original
post...
> Cate
By the way, what part of koehler do you like best?
I like the part where we get to tie the dog next to a housetraining
mistake, and BEAT HIM every twenty minutes for the same mistake.
Most of our rpdb regulars are devout koehler trainers. Here are
koehler's "solutions" for barking and housetraining, and ENDORSEMENTS
of koehler's methods by our Gang Of Thugs Members.
Ask PROFESSOR DERMER to tell us HOWE the dog understands
koehler coming back every twenty minutes to punish him again
for the same mistake he's tied him up next to, to housetrain him???
Here's some good training tips from the same source cindy moore uses.
Psychoclown wrote:
Our professor of behavior Wisc. U., lyingdoc dermer
The answer is OBVIOUS.
Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and
says:
"I don't beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the
benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses
not to read the article (SHE'D REALLY LIKE IT IF
YOU DON'T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of
"twisting ears (INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH
SPIKES).
"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less
tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking
them more sharply.
REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG.
I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO
BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM).
I would never advise anyone to slap a dog
(SHE'S A PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you
expect her to ADMIT THE TRUTH???).
I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever,
where slapping a dog is anything but destructive."
RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists... and chin cuff
doesn't mean hit, according to lyinglynn and avrama....
amy lyingfrosty dahl continues:
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent
that resisting your will fades in importance.
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against
that
if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell. Try
pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even
the buckle on the collar.
Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in"
With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'
Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the
stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the
dummy.
REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG.
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead
of your thumb;
Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips
and pinching its ear.
Gotta LOVE koehler. dahl makes koheler look like St. Francis.
Everybody's PAL, Jerry "Friends Don't Let Friends, Beat Dogs," Howe.
Jerry Howe
"cate" <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote in message
news:JGXH5.54120$JS3.7...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> I've posted about this a few times before, and now I'm doing so again
> because nothing has worked. Orson the dog is still exhibiting high
prey
> drive around Emily the cat. I'm at my wit's end with the animal
management
> we do on a daily basis.
Sorry cate. I'm not interested in what you've done that hasen't worked.
I'm USED to what doesn't work coming from our Gang Of Thugs around
here. I've got information that DOES WORK, but I'm not going to work
too hard to change your mind. You've been HOODWINKED by a bunch of dog
abusing, lying, cowards.
> Is anyone interested in offering some suggestions on working with
Orson to
> make this go more smoothly?
Yup. Got all you need available for free in the Wits' End Dog Trainng
Method manual at http://www.doggydoright.com , I'll even throw in at NO
EXTRA CHARGE, all the additonal help you might ask for.
> Here's the animal management part: Emily has the basement as her safe
area
> and it's where her food & box are. She has constant access to both
the
> basement and the rest of the house. She will only come out of the
basement
> if Orson is outside in the back yard, off the property, upstairs two
floors
> away, or in his crate--which he sleeps in every night. Orson has free
run of
> the house. The kitchen is where Emily's basement access is, but it
also has
> the back door which leads to the back yard--featured heavily in the
daily
> routine for Orson's potty breaks, etc. So the dog is constantly
running past
> the cat's safe area access.
And you STILL can't understand HOWE that keeps you knuckled under your
dog behavior problem???
> Here's what we've tried:
> - Feeding Orson treats (on sit-stay) while the cat is in the same
room. This
> worked fine and I think it could've been a great start, but the cat
has
> stopped voluntarily being in the same room.
That's probably because the cat got jealous the the bad dog kept
getting all the good treats. You showed favoritism for his aggression.
That's HOWE the cat sees it.
> If it had continued well, I would've progressed to putting him on
down-stay and feeding,
> then down-stay and feeding only intermittently, then not feeding at
all. But it's moot
> anyway.
BECAUSE YOU ARE USING DEFECTIVE, BACKWARDS, THINKING.
> - Exposed them to each other while 1) they're both in crates and 2)
he's in
> a crate but she's not. He was given treats in an attempt to ignore
her, but
> every time she moves, he starts to either lunge or growl or bark at
her.
The barrier CAUSES anxiety. Stop listening to these bums who keep
giving you bad advice.
> All she wants to do is become invisible. I've tried this 5 times over
the course
> of several weeks, and she has never gotten more confident about it.
She's
> never gotten past the point where, when I open her carrier door, she
does
> anything but make for the door (which I keep closed for a while to
force her
> to stay in the room and then after a few minutes open).
You can't see HOWE that aggrevates BOTH critters??? You are trying to
FORCE CONTROL, instead of TEACH.
> - When they accidentally end up in the same room (I put it that way
because
> the cat is very vigilant about listening for his footfalls and
pre-empting
> any interaction by disappearing), it's almost invariable that we
don't even
> find out about it (don't see her b/c she's hiding) until the cat gets
> spooked and starts running toward the basement, which sets Orson off.
I took a cat with a bad history of fear of guests and dogs, and brought
her around in my house with all my dogs and screwball friends, IN ONE
WEEK. I had to LIE to the shelter to get the cat, because she was to be
given ONLY to a quiet home with NO DOGS. Ha! ONE WEEK, and the cat was
NORMAL.
AND, I took a six yeard old Great Dane who had HATED cats for six
years, and introduced him to a cat IN ONE WEEK. The kitten slept on his
FACE.
>We, in our excited and surprised state, end up yelling NO and SIT and
STAY.
THAT'S THE OTHER PART OF YOUR PROBLEM.
You've been taught to MISHANDLE your dog, and YOU LIKE THAT. Otherwise,
you'd have listened to ME, LONG AGO...
> He always obeys, but because we're caught off guard, it's always
AFTER the
> chase has begun.
He does NOT OBEY, he WAITS till you TURN YOUR BACK.. And THEN, HE
STRIKES.
> NBs:
> - We can't keep Orson on leash all the time in the house; he has skin
> problems and isn't supposed to have a collar on except when
necessary.
He PROBABLY has skin problems because YOU are making a NERVOUS WRECK of
him.
> - Orson has significant sight problems. Perhaps part of his prey
drive is
> driven by the extra jolt he gets by the cat darting in and out of his
field
> of vision?
I don't go for excuses. EVEN IF THEY'RE VALID. Training is the answer,
not excuses.
> - FWIW, Orson is not possessive of toys or food.
> - The cat has always been timid, but it's gotten much worse (if she
were a
> dog I'd say she had fear aggression--she bites), ever since we
brought Orson
> home.
Get it straight. Aggression is a result of FEAR and INSECURITY.
> Can anyone help?
Yup. But YOU'RE TOO SMART TO BE TAKEN IN BY THIS CON MAN. You'd rather
listen to the bums I've EXPOSED and DISCREDITED as lying, vicious, DOG
ABUSING, Thugs.
>I feel like my life is all about animal management.
MANAGEMENT??? That's MISMANAGEMENT.
> I currently work at home but am looking for a job away from the
house, so
> anything I can do to prepare for leaving them alone in the house all
day
> together would be great.
I'll suggest one more time, READ the Wits' End Dog Training Method
manual available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com, ASK me
QUESTIONS if you have difficulty understanding the text or applying the
techniques. DO THE WORK from the begining, and END YOUR PROBELM in a
few days.
> Whew. Cate
Or, you can continue mishandling your dog, and getting rid of your cat
ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.
Yours for ending stupiditity and ignorance in dog training, Jerry
"Wits' End Dog Training Method," Howe.
You can get all the information you need to properly handle and train
your dog using non force, non confrontational, scientific and
psychological behavior modification and conditioning techniques, from
the Wits' End Dog Training Method manual available for free at
http://www.doggydoright.com
"Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and
judge things by reason's way, not by popular say." Montaigne
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin
"If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman.
DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS... j;~)
"CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw.
"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems
of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the
simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to
admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in
explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which
they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy
Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more
complaints to my personal email than any other controversial
post I have made to date, bar none?:
caveat
If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would
rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing them. If you
have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke
him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold,
hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are
appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the punisher,
or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can't train your
dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe.
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Wits' End Dog Training
Witse...@aol.com
http://www.doggydoright.com
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem,
bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who
ever can't hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned
qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split
seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless
hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
Jerry Howe
"Cindy Tittle Moore" <tit...@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
news:3z_H5.70955$bI6.2...@news1.giganews.com...
> In article <WZZH5.54690$JS3.7...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>,
> cate <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote:
> >I should've added these two things: Orson's not usually in the same
room
> >with me during the day. He usually spends the day downstairs, closer
to the
> >basement where the cat hangs out, so just leashing him wouldn't
accomplish
> >the same thing as confining him to be near me (which I can hear you
saying I
> >need to commit to doing).
> Well, if you're going to take the trouble to solve the
problem...yeah.
Yeah? What the hell would you know about this? All you know is to twist
and pinch and shock and jerk and choke dogs to ENAHNCE THE BOND between
"trainer" and dog.
> >The other thing is that the frequency of the cat's accidental
appearance in
> >Orson's presence is very low. Maybe once a month.
> Worse, in a way. Intermittant rewards can be very powerful.
So is STUPIDITY and VICIOUSNESS.
> >Right. We do make him sit and stay all the time--for his meals, for
putting
> >on the collar and leash, for treats, and at random times without
treating.
> >Come, though, is another story. This is something we've been lazy
with,
> >because we've been thinking his level of compliance is good enough
for daily
> >lives. He currently comes reliably IF there are no
distractions--which is to
> >say he comes only some of the time.
> I'd work on the come, then.
RIGHT. Tell us HOWE???
> >I really have a chicken-or-the-egg problem here. With work, I could
> >condition a different response in Orson. But with the cat not
showing up
> >except on very rare occasions, there is little to condition him
against.
> Hm, yes, that makes it trickier.
Tuesday makes it trickier too. Same with Monday. EVERYDAY is tricky,
when you're so freaking IGNORANT that you ENHANCE THE BOND through PAIN
in ALL ADVANCE TRAINING... Care for me to pull up SOME of your
QUOTES???
> Working on the come, especially with distractions as he gets better
(eg, when he
> improves,s tart working on it out in parks with plenty of people
walking by and so on).
Ah yes.
> >This is the main sticking point. How can I train him to respond a
certain
> >way to her if he never sees her? Maybe I should just take my vet
tech's
> >suggestion to put the cat in a crate and have the dog 'sniff her
out.' I
> >dismissed it as too traumatic for the cat, but maybe if it were part
of
> >conditioning exercises for the dog...
> Hard to say, without knowing your cat.
Everything is hard to say, WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.
> >Maybe this is the answer. In fact, maybe the
> >answer is somehow enlarging the cat's domain first so she'll show up
more,
> >then conditioning the dog to her presence. Now if only I could get
him
> >straight out the third floor to the back yard for pee breaks...
> Sounds to me like you have a pretty good grasp of the overall problem
Is THAT so? IF she had a grasp of the PROBLEM, she'd have a SOLUTION.
YOU are at as great a loss as your pal cate.
> and some good ideas to try when you think about them. I think with
> patience you'll work something out. Maybe what you need is
> reassurance that patience is likely to pay off...! :-)
Doing more of the same harder and faster will bring her more of the
same harder and faster. YOU CAN'T FORCE a dog to be FRIENDLY.
> They do make extra wide babygates, so perhaps there's still some way
> to temporarly alter the open floor plan to accomplish the above.
And you can't BARRICADE the world.
> --Cindy
That's why I LOVE making a CHUMP out of YOU. You're a real sadist, and
I detest bums who HURT DOGS and try to pass it off as "training."
Tell us HOWE the dog understands koehler coming back every twenty
minutes to punish him again for the same mistake he's tied him up next
to, to housetrain him???
HOWE do koehler KNOWS the dog don't think he's coming back to beat him
every twenty minutes for the same mistake, just because you're mad at
him, instead of just TRAINING him???
See what I mean? You can't justify that.
Tell us HOWE the dog knows he shouldn't be barking? That is, until the
beatings take effect, after ENOUGH lessons?
Tell us HOWE COME you think dogs might want to take a big chunk out of
an abusive Thug who beats him every twenty minutes for crappin on the
floor in a room you've restricted him to for this purpose, and then
tied him next to a forced accident?
And when koehler OCCASIONALLY find a dog who objects to his training,
why does he HANG the dog, instead of calm them down and teach them
there's nothing to be afraid of???
That's the only question ANYONE of you CAN answer.
The answer is OBVIOUS.
koehler trainers are DOG ABUSING COWARDS.
Koehler on correcting the housebreaking backslider.
"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will continue
to mess in the house. An indelible impression can
sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of
long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he's
made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals
and punish him again for the same thing. (Dogs are
REALLY stupid. J.H.)
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light
spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate
punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well
as the house, if you really pour it on him."
Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and
says:
amy lyingfrosty dahl continues:
Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
Most of our rpdb regulars are devout koehler trainers. Here are
Jerry Howe
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 17:00:57 GMT, "cate"
> <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote:
>
manufacturer
> >name, do you?
>
>
> the basic one is only 5' wide, but you can fit it with
> extension panels to make it up to 13' wide. it's a little
> pricey, but it might work for what you need.
>
> http://members.home.net/scouvrette/index/
> --
> I recommend to all rpdb readers that Jerry Howe
> should be ignored as a crank and waste of time
OR, she could just TRAIN THE DOG to respect the border, but that would
take STUDYING the Wits' End Dog Training Method manual available for
free at http://www.doggydoright.com
Compliments of Doggy Do Right (and Kitty Will Too)
Jerry Howe
> In article <dT_H5.54978$JS3.8...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>,
> cate <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote:
> >Yes. I have the Kilcommons book but haven't used it much. Do you
recommend
> >his method for teaching come? (DH the untrainer did an obedience
class with
> >Orson, where his come was only ok. Other than that, I've only worked
a bit
> >with him on come, by making sure he keeps me in visual contact by
moving in
> >the opposite direction.)
>
> There's a lot of different ways to teach the come. The basics are to
always
> praise when he arrives at your side, no matter how much of an effort
it was
> to get him at your side, and to be consistent (eg, if you call him
and he
> blows it off, don't let him get away with that).
>
manufacturer
> >name, do you?
>
> catalogues.
>
> --Cindy
Hello cindymooreon,
Tell us HOWE to NOT LET HIM GET AWAY WITH IT???
That's why I LOVE making a CHUMP out of YOU. You're a real sadist, and
I detest bums who HURT DOGS and try to pass it off as "training."
Tell us HOWE the dog understands koehler coming back every twenty
minutes to punish him again for the same mistake he's tied him up next
to, to housetrain him???
HOWE do koehler KNOWS the dog don't think he's coming back to beat him
every twenty minutes for the same mistake, just because you're mad at
him, instead of just TRAINING him???
See what I mean? You can't justify that.
Tell us HOWE the dog knows he shouldn't be barking? That is, until the
beatings take effect, after ENOUGH lessons?
Tell us HOWE COME you think dogs might want to take a big chunk out of
an abusive Thug who beats him every twenty minutes for crappin on the
floor in a room you've restricted him to for this purpose, and then
tied him next to a forced accident?
And when koehler OCCASIONALLY find a dog who objects to his training,
why does he HANG the dog, instead of calm them down and teach them
there's nothing to be afraid of???
That's the only question ANYONE of you CAN answer.
The answer is OBVIOUS.
koehler trainers are DOG ABUSING COWARDS.
Koehler on correcting the housebreaking backslider.
amy lyingfrosty dahl continues:
Psychoclown wrote:
Our professor of behavior Wisc. U., lyingdoc dermer
endorses koehler. (He said: "I punish dog's behavior,
NOT the dog." You gonna believe THAT CRAP,
PEOPLE???)
ron likes to use the heavy belt on his dogs
"Read for koehler for content" Mark Shaw, Sadist, rpdb regular.
"I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn, pathological liar, noted dog abuser.
"There's much wisdom in koehler," deana pace. (Her dogs run away from
home.)
"Read koehler," lyingdogDUMMY. (koehler is all he understands.)
"Read koehler, cindymorons k-9 web faq's page," ludwig smith.
"Don't let him do that, read cindymooreon's web page," boob maida.
"I'm not a koehler trainer," cindymoron, lyinglynn,
lyingfrosty dahl. But they spout koehler's methods. They
don't consider themselves koehler trainers because they
shock, twist and pinch ears and toes, and BEAT DOGS
WITH STICKS to MOTIVATE them.
And now for a little MOORE good koehler training:
BARKING, WHINING, HOWLING, YODELING, SCREAMING, AND WAILING
We'll begin with the easiest kind of vocalist to correct: the one that
charges gates, fences, doors, and windows, barking furiously at
familiar or imaginary people and objects. A few clusters of BBs from a
good slingshot, in conjunction with the light line and plenty of
temptations, will cause such a dog to use his mind rather than his
mouth. But you won't make the permanent impression unless you supply
dozens of opportunities for him to exercise the control he thus
acquires. Make sure these opportunities don't always come at the same
time of the day, else he may learn to observe the "quiet hour" and
pursue his old routines at other times. With the help of the light
line, it will be easy to follow the BBs with a long down to make sure
he gets the most from his lesson. As was mentioned before, eliminating
the senseless barking will not lessen the dog's value as a watchdog
but rather, as he grows more discriminating, increase it.
The dog who vocalizes in bratty protest or lonesomeness because you're
gone constitutes a different problem. If it is impractical for someone
to stay with him constantly (there are owners who cater to neurosis by
employing dog sitters), you'll have to heed the neighbors and the law
and quiet the dog. This calls for a little ingenuity as well as a
heavy hand.
Attach a line to your dog's collar, so your corrective effort doesn't
turn into a footrace around the house until you reach a stalemate
under the bed. This use of the line in the correction will also serve
to establish it as a reminder to be quiet as the dog drags it around
when you're not present. Next, equip yourself with a man's leather
belt or a strap heavy enough to give your particular dog a good
tanning. Yup-we're going to strike him. Real hard. Remember, you're
dealing with a dog who knows he should be quiet and neighbors who have
legal rights to see that he does.
Now leave, and let your fading footsteps tell the dog of your going.
When you've walked to a point where he'll think you're gone but where
you could hear any noises he might make, stop and listen. If you find
a comfortable waiting place on a nearby porch, be careful not to talk
or laugh. Tests show a dog's hearing to be many times as sharp as
yours.
When the noise comes, instead of trying to sneak up to the door so you
can barge in while he's still barking, which is generally impossible,
respond to his first sound with an emphatic bellow of "out," and keep
on bellowing as you charge back to his area. Thunder through the door
or gate, snatch up the belt that you've conveniently placed, and
descend on him. He'll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and
reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or, if he's
a big dog, until you've snubbed him up with a hitch on something.
While he's held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs.
Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it's the bitter end. A real
whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances
that will be necessary. When you're finished and the dog is convinced
that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you
catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from
the stay and leave the area again.
So that you won't feel remorseful, reflect on the truth that a great
percentage of the barkers who are given away to "good homes" end up in
the kindly black box with the sweet smell. Personally, I've always
felt that it's even better to spank children, even if they "cry out,"
than to "put them to sleep."
You might have a long wait on that comfortable porch before your dog
starts broadcasting again. When he does, let your long range bellow
tie the consequent correction to his first sound and repeat the
spanking, if anything emphasizing it a bit more.
It might be necessary to spend a Saturday or another day off so that
you'll have time to follow through sufficiently. When you have a full
day, you will be able to convince him each yelp will have a bad
consequence, and the consistency will make your job easier. If he gets
away with his concert part of the time, he'll be apt to gamble on your
inconsistency.
After a half dozen corrections, "the reason and the correction" will
be tied in close enough association so that you can move in on him
without the preliminary bellowing of "out." From then on, it's just a
case of laying for the dog and supplying enough bad consequences of
his noise so he'll no longer feel like gambling.
Occasionally, there is a dog who seems to sense that you're hiding
nearby and will utter no sound. He also seems to sense when you have
really gone away, at least according to the neighbors. Maybe his
sensing actually amounts to close observation. He could be watching
and listening for the signs of your actual going.
Make a convincing operation of leaving, even if it requires changing
clothes and being unusually noisy as you slam the doors on the family
car and drive away. Arrange with a friend to trade cars a block or two
from your house so you can come back and park within earshot without a
single familiar sound to tell the dog you've returned. A few of these
car changes are generally enough to fool the most alert dog.
Whether your dog believes you are gone anytime you step out of the
house or requires the production of changing clothes and driving off,
keep working until even your neighbors admit the dog has reformed. If
there has been a long history of barking and whining, it sometimes
requires a lot of work to make a dog be quiet when you're not around,
so give the above method an honest try before you presume your dog
requires a more severe correction.
Jerry Howe
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001020131323...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
> >From: "cate"
> >I should've added these two things: Orson's not usually in the same
room
> >with me during the day. He usually spends the day downstairs, closer
to the
> >basement where the cat hangs out, so just leashing him wouldn't
accomplish
> >the same thing as confining him to be near me (which I can hear you
saying I
> >need to commit to doing).
> I've always held the opinion that a dog
Should be jerked and choked on a progned choke collar to MAKE THEM
FRIENDLY.
You tld that to someone else with a dog/cat aggression probelm, and you
did the same with that little dog in the thread "interested in
hearing," where you OVELOOKED TWO SHOCK CONTAINMENT SYSTEMS that made
the dog aggressive, and told them to jerk and choke the dog on a
pronged choke collar and crate im any time they couldn't sufficiently
jerk and coke him. Our Gang Of Thugs consensus of opinoon was "KILL THE
DOG TO BE FAIR."
That's the state of the art, boss NUTHIN.
> who chooses to spend time in another area of the home, away from the
owner, is less
> responsive to that owner' wishes (i.e. - less "obedient").
Well DUOH! Is that why you crate the dog, to KEEP IT CLOSE???
> Dogs who can be independent, but PREFER to spend time near their
owners, are by and
> large, more responsive to their owner's requests.
That's why I start EVERY dog off with the Family Leadership Exercise.
Remember? That's one of the IMPORTANT EXERCISES you overlooked when you
tried to confound my methods in the Wits' End Dog Training Method
manual...
> I'd start out by keeping Orson in the same room with you while you
work. That
> alone may make a difference in how well he listens to you telling him
to leave
> the cat alone.
By tethering him to her belt?
> My office is in the lower level of my home. I don't think there's
anytime I'm
> in here without all (whatever number is here, usually just my 2) dogs
and at
> least one cat (who sits on my lap and intereferes with typing, but
he's 17, so
> I indulge him!). It's pretty rare for a dog to be anywhere but near
me (their
> choice as well as mine), and the cats are generally there too!
When you are in your office. The rest of the time you crate them,
because they are not trustworthy.
> Janet Boss
> Best Friends Dog Obedience
> "Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
>
> "Second-hand dogs AREN'T second-rate"
> see Lucy at: http://www.flyball.com/nsl/
Gotta LOVE koehler. dahl makes koheler look like St. Francis.
Our professor of behavior Wisc. U., lyingdoc dermer
endorses koehler. (He said: "I punish dog's behavior,
NOT the dog.
" You gonna believe THAT CRAP, PEOPLE???
Koehler on correcting the housebreaking backslider.
The answer is OBVIOUS.
."
Jerry Howe
"shelly" <scouv...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:j201vs8dg7ma0i4ll...@4ax.com...
> On 20 Oct 2000 17:13:23 GMT, j1b...@aol.com (J1Boss) wrote:
>
> >My office is in the lower level of my home. I don't think there's
anytime I'm
> >in here without all (whatever number is here, usually just my 2)
dogs and at
> >least one cat (who sits on my lap and intereferes with typing, but
he's 17, so
> >I indulge him!). It's pretty rare for a dog to be anywhere but near
me (their
> >choice as well as mine), and the cats are generally there too!
>
> that's how it is at my house. the dogs *and* the cats hang
> out in the same room with me.
>
> i think it was a huge advantage for dog-cat relations at my
> house to have Mistress Eeevil Kitty in charge of the Puppy
> Welcome Wagon <G>. she's a total terror and doesn't put up
> with *anything* from the dogs. she's trained both dogs quite
> nicely (as well as some not-so-cat-friendly guests' dogs, i
> might add).
>
> i don't know if this is a good or bad idea for Cate, but do
> you know anyone who has a big, feisty cat who is really
> dog-savvy? maybe it would help to introduce Orson (on-lead,
> of course) to a cat who won't put up with any nonsense??? (a
> word of caution, though--cats' claws are *very*bad* for dogs'
> eyes. elliott and i learned that the hard way.)
>
Jerry Howe
> > you know anyone who has a big, feisty cat who is really
> > dog-savvy? maybe it would help to introduce Orson (on-lead,
> > of course) to a cat who won't put up with any nonsense??? (a
> > word of caution, though--cats' claws are *very*bad* for dogs'
> > eyes. elliott and i learned that the hard way.)
>
> neighborhood, we pass this bruiser of a cat. This tough-ass cat
doesn't even
> move off the sidewalk, and nonchalantly bats at him when he tries to
get in
> close to sniff her (he's on a very short lead at this point). Each
episode
> has resulted in Orson getting the picture after the third swat, but
each new
> episode seems to carry no memory of past interactions for him.
>
> Cate
That's because you are restricting him on his pronged choke collar.
You're an IDIOT. Jerry.
WebbWeave
there is SOMEBODY lurking in the basement? Mighty creepy, I'm sure.
Especially when that somebody is a Big Deal to the ppl of the household.
Surprised that Orson, if he really wanted to EAT Emily, doesn't push the door
open and go downstairs and do so. Doorstop or no. If he's determined.
I think they ought to get to know each other, by some (safe) means. Leashes or
crates or something.
Jerry Howe
I keep telling you that if you don't post, I won't have anything to
EMBARASS you with. Unless I go to your lousy web pages.
<TO...@dog-play.com> wrote in message
news:8spphn$22tv$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 13:22:49 GMT cate
<Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> whittled these words:
> <snip details>
> > Can anyone help? I feel like my life is all about animal
management. I
> > currently work at home but am looking for a job away from the
house, so
> > anything I can do to prepare for leaving them alone in the house
all day
> > together would be great.
> I have no help to offer.
You never do, but you're real good at confusing the issues and
rationalizing erroneous B.S.
> Please don't even consider leaving them alone in
> the house all day together, ever.
That's what I EXPECT FROM YOU. All you know is TO REACT OUT OF FEAR.
> Under the circumstances as you describe them here is no training
program that will
> make your dog safe with your cat when they are unsupervised.
IS THAT SO? Says who? YOU? HA! You're a blackguard.
> Sometimes despite our wishes,
You know the expression, wish in one hand...
> and our best intentions,
The best laid plans of mice and men, ofthen get screwed up by people's
irresponsibe, controling, vain, self-serving, dishonest, attitudes, and
antiquated, backwards thinking.
Got it, blackman??? You knit little cover-ups for pronged choke collars
so your pals won't see what you do to your dog. You day board your dogs
because they are not trustworthy. And you lie about it, and THAT'S what
I like BEST.
EVERYBODY SEES THROUGH YOUR SIMPLE MINDED EXCUSES AND KNOWS YOU"RE
LYING.
> two pets cannot get along.
That's USUALLY a very SIMPLE training problem JUST LIKE breaking dogs
of eating kat poo and kat food and escaping the fence, and climbing on
furniture, AND PULLING ON LEASH FOR FIVE YEARS, eh, blackguard???
> I understand the desire to have a lower management burden.
That's why you day board your dogs. That's why you hide the kat box in
the shower. That's why you jerk and choke your dog on a pronged choke
collar with a nice littlle knitted cover-up.
> At this point I would
At this point you should recognize your mistakes, and correct your
thinking. But you CAN'T, because you'll LOOK like an IDIOT. Appearances
are IMPORTANT to you, you've got some serious psycho-social development
problems...
> focus all attention on getting the dog's behavior under control
INDEED. CONTROL. FORCE.
> when you are present (sounds like you're doing a pretty good job)
Yes, it DOES sound like she's doing a pretty good job. JUST LIKE steve
DID. Ask SAMSON.. Ask your PAL Robert. Ask FRITZ
> and work at avoiding any contact or confrontation between dog and
cat.
Yes, fear. Avoid. Hide. Deny the FACTS. Deny methods that will WORK.
Keep on doing more of the same to get more of the same results.
> Abandon the idea of trying to make them get along.
Why don't you just get the hell off this forum? You have no advice. You
only scare and confuse people, because you are scared and confused.
> Your ability to train for the "not chasing" behavior will depend on
your ability to deprive
> the dog of the occasional reward of the chase.
That's what YOU think. But what do you really KNOW??? YOU HURT DOGS TO
TRAIN THEM.
> Intermittent rewards strengthen behavior.
Oh shut up, you are intermittently THINKING.
> Getting the chance to chase is a reward.
You're a freaking GENIUS.
> Once you abandon the idea of getting them to get along you are more
free to choose
> management styles that virtually eliminate the opportunity for a
chase.
Ah, the Coupe de Gras. SHEER IDIOCY! But CLEVER.
YOU MEAN, LOCK THEM UP.
> Diane Blackman
> http://www.dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
> Re: Jerry Howe http://www.dog-play.com/jerry.html
> http://www.dissension.com/logic/adhominem.html
I see you were prepared for my response... Have a NICE day, blackman.
Come back again when you have MORE USEFUL ADVICE.
Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
Koehler on correcting the housebreaking backslider.
"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will continue
to mess in the house. An indelible impression can
sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of
long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he's
made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals
and punish him again for the same thing. (Dogs are
REALLY stupid. J.H.)
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light
spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate
punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well
as the house, if you really pour it on him."
Tell us HOWE the dog understands koehler coming back every twenty
minutes to punish him again for the same mistake he's tied him up next
to, to housetrain him???
HOWE does koehler KNOW the dog don't think he's coming back to beat him
every twenty minutes for the same mistake, just because you're mad at
him, instead of just TRAINING him???
See what I mean? You can't justify that.
Tell us HOWE the dog knows he shouldn't be barking? That is, until the
beatings take effect, after ENOUGH lessons?
Tell us HOWE COME you think dogs might want to take a big chunk out of
an abusive Thug who beats him every twenty minutes for crappin on the
floor in a room you've restricted him to for this purpose, and then
tied him next to a forced accident?
And when koehler OCCASIONALLY find a dog who objects to his training,
why does he HANG the dog, instead of calm them down and teach them
there's nothing to be afraid of???
That's the only question ANYONE of you CAN answer.
The answer is OBVIOUS.
koehler trainers are DOG ABUSING COWARDS.
Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and
says:
amy lyingfrosty dahl continues:
Gotta LOVE koehler. dahl makes koheler look like St. Francis.
Jerry Howe
> If it's just the chasing, not the eating, why not just let it happen?
If Orson
> corners her or gets too close, she'll let him have it and pprobably
discourage
> further chasing.
By taking out an eye, or provoking the dog and getting herself KILLED.
THAT'S WHY NOT.
> Or -- she may secretly like it.
She likes it so much, she's in HIDING.
> She may like the fact that he gets in trouble when he chases her.
IT'S FLUFFY!!!!
> Cats are sneaky this way
And so are our Gang Of Thugs, giving half-@$$ed MISINFORMATION.
> Not attributing such underhandedness to Emily, mind you -- but you
might think
> of it as a possibility.
INDEED. We'll just chalk your post up to STUPIDITY and UNCARING.
> Jane Webb
> & Moonpie & Raisin Pie
You can get all the information you need to properly handle and train
your dog using non force, non confrontational, scientific and
psychological behavior modification and conditioning techniques, from
the Wits' End Dog Training Method manual available for free at
http://www.doggydoright.com
"Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and
cate
> Been thinking about this. How would it feel to a dog to know that *always*
> there is SOMEBODY lurking in the basement? Mighty creepy, I'm sure.
Creepy? <g> Maybe so. He's definitely well-aware that the basement is an
exceptional place in the house. Occasionally we step down to the basement
landing momentarily with the door all the way open--to deposit recyclables,
refill on dog food and what have you. Orson doesn't need to be told to STAY;
he just does it. Maybe he's creeped out.
> Especially when that somebody is a Big Deal to the ppl of the household.
> Surprised that Orson, if he really wanted to EAT Emily, doesn't push the
door
> open and go downstairs and do so. Doorstop or no. If he's determined.
Yes. In pre-wits' end days (I hope I don't trigger the Perl auto-poster), I
was able to recognize that he didn't truly want to eat her. I posited that
he was only interested in her if she was moving. Maybe because of his
failing sight, he can only SEE her when she's moving.
> I think they ought to get to know each other, by some (safe) means.
Leashes or
> crates or something.
Yes, you're right. Crates, though. No leashes. A sharp kitty is not a thing
to have within reach of my veins.
I'll keep y'all posted.
Cate
Jerry Howe
allow animals to do their training for them, are usurping their
humanity and undermining their "authority.".
Yours for human decency and enlightenment, Jerry "Ghandi," Howe.
"Rauni" <jen...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:3a01105f...@207.211.168.90...
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:35:37 -0500, shelly <scouv...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On 20 Oct 2000 17:13:23 GMT, j1b...@aol.com (J1Boss) wrote:
> >
> >>My office is in the lower level of my home. I don't think there's
anytime I'm
> >>in here without all (whatever number is here, usually just my 2)
dogs and at
> >>least one cat (who sits on my lap and intereferes with typing, but
he's 17, so
> >>I indulge him!). It's pretty rare for a dog to be anywhere but near
me (their
> >>choice as well as mine), and the cats are generally there too!
> >
> >that's how it is at my house. the dogs *and* the cats hang
> >out in the same room with me.
> >
> >i think it was a huge advantage for dog-cat relations at my
> >house to have Mistress Eeevil Kitty in charge of the Puppy
> >Welcome Wagon <G>. she's a total terror and doesn't put up
> >with *anything* from the dogs. she's trained both dogs quite
> >nicely (as well as some not-so-cat-friendly guests' dogs, i
> >might add).
>
>
> Yes that is how it has worked in my home with my dogs. But now that
I
> also have a beta cat I can see if he was the *only* cat I owed, my
dog
> would never have learned proper cat manners. It was Alpha cat that
> trained her. She even waits until the cat is finished drinking water
> from her bowl (the cat have their own water bowl but the alpha likes
> the dog's water better)
> >
> >i don't know if this is a good or bad idea for Cate, but do
> >you know anyone who has a big, feisty cat who is really
> >dog-savvy? maybe it would help to introduce Orson (on-lead,
> >of course) to a cat who won't put up with any nonsense??? (a
> >word of caution, though--cats' claws are *very*bad* for dogs'
> >eyes. elliott and i learned that the hard way.)
> >
black...@my-deja.com
"Jerry Howe" <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>
> STUDYING the Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
at http://home.i1.net/~dogman//jerry.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
shelly
wrote:
>Yes that is how it has worked in my home with my dogs. But now that I
>also have a beta cat I can see if he was the *only* cat I owed, my dog
>would never have learned proper cat manners. It was Alpha cat that
>trained her. She even waits until the cat is finished drinking water
>from her bowl (the cat have their own water bowl but the alpha likes
>the dog's water better)
my dogs both wait if one of the cats is drinking out of
their water dish. they also won't go through doors if
Mistress Eeevil Kitty is in the doorway. she has them
*well* trained <G>. a couple of times pandora (the eeevil
one) has decided she wanted to try elliott's food after i
set it down for him. he didn't touch his dish until after i
shooed her away.
Jerry Howe
collar is ENTERTAINING. Jerry.
P.S. Another freak here thinks her puppies eating baby bird nesting
over her porch is entertaining too. As do several others who enjoy
molesting squirrels and bunnies and killing kats for their dogs
exercise and pleasure. Then they make the dog spit it out and throw the
garbage in a trash bucket. Our Gang Of Thugs are FASTIDIOUS. j;~}
"cate" <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote in message
news:Jj0I5.55135$JS3.8...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> "WebbWeave" <webb...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20001020132956...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
>
> > Are we worried here about Orson chasing Emily, or about Orson
EATING
> Emily?
>
> The latter. As I posted in another message in this thread, the one
time he
> cornered her, she cowered without putting up even one claw or tooth,
and he
> had his mouth open and right over her back, ready to pick her up,
IMO.
>
> > Most cats, I've found, may not *like* being chased -- but they will
> *really*
> > stay out of the picture (to the point of disappearing) if they
think they
> are
> > going to be eaten.
>
> This is indeed what's going on, I think.
>
> Or -- she may secretly like it. She may like the fact that he
> > gets in trouble when he chases her. Cats are sneaky this way
> > Not attributing such underhandedness to Emily, mind you
>
> Oh, she's plenty sneaky, alright. But re the fear of being eaten--I
don't
> think she likes it much.
>
> Cate
>
>
>
Jerry Howe
WORKS.
When it DOESN'T, SOMEONE DIES. JERRY.
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001020150410...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
> >From: "cate"
>
> the one time he
> >cornered her, she cowered without putting up even one claw or tooth,
and he
> >had his mouth open and right over her back, ready to pick her up,
IMO.
>
> *** Hmmmm - obviously I can't say what is going on, since I can't see
them, but
> that doesn't really sound like "eating" behavior.
> Dogs who want to kill cats are usually pretty driven, and it doesn't
take as
> long as a cat cowering and a mouth on their back.
>
> My first dog tried to kill my first cat. No doubt about it. We
worked for 2
> weeks, him on a leash (and yes - a horrid choke collar - nylon I
believe), her
> brought into the room. He'd sniff, she'd hiss, he'd attack, he'd get
a big
> correction. Praise for not reacting or ignoring. She was only a
little kitten
> at the time. The dog was 10 years old. The whole ordeal gave her a
swelled
> head - she thought she RULED dogs after that! She would eat food
from his dish
> (while he was eating), take rawhide chips out of his mouth, generally
get away
> with anything. He knew that any prey behavior wouldn't be tolerated.
The
> second cat (now 17, the first died from heart disease at 10) moved in
as a 2-3
> year old like he lived there all his life, and the dog never bothered
him in
> the least.
>
> They were separated during the day while we were at work (in those
days, he was
> kept in an area with access to the dog door, which she didn't get to
use), but
> both had free roam all evening and night when we were home, after the
initial 2
> week period. We really forced the issue by all being in the same
room each
> evening for those first few weeks - we kept sessions short and took
breaks.
> Letting her (the kitten) retreat may have made this take forever.
>
> I know Orson has trouble wearing a collar all of the time, but a
nylon slip
> collar with attached leash may be a very workable setup.
>
> These days, Franklin just bathes the cats' ears and heads, while Lucy
attempts
> play bows with the 7 year old. Very goofy, but they all have free
access to
> each other practically 24/7 (Franklin is crated overnight for a few
more weeks,
> and when I'm not home for ???, since he's only 14 weeks old!), and
live in
> harmony.
>
>
Jerry Howe
FLUFFY. Someone is likely to DIE or loose an eye. Jerry.
"cate" <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote in message
news:pd1I5.55157$JS3.8...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20001020150410...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
> > >From: "cate"
> >
> > the one time he
> > >cornered her, she cowered without putting up even one claw or
tooth, and
> he
> > >had his mouth open and right over her back, ready to pick her up,
IMO.
> >
> > *** Hmmmm - obviously I can't say what is going on, since I can't
see
> them, but
> > that doesn't really sound like "eating" behavior.
> > Dogs who want to kill cats are usually pretty driven, and it
doesn't take
> as
> > long as a cat cowering and a mouth on their back.
>
> Yeah, I'm definitely projecting my emotions on this. I guess he'd
have
> killed her if he wanted to that time. He definitely had the
opportunity.
>
> > I know Orson has trouble wearing a collar all of the time, but a
nylon
> slip
> > collar with attached leash may be a very workable setup.
>
NATHREN ARMOUR
I think you may be able to solve your problem by bringing them closer
together . Letting them have their own space is good but wont solve the
problem your having . Claws or not you need to get them together more
and more as you can. You can sit in a chair with the cat in your lap, (
At first with a thick cover over your lap ) and the dog at your feet.
Get them use to the fact that they have to live together and by doing
this you will show them that they are both the same and you are the boss
and this is what you expect of them. Offer them a treat only after
they have shown that they are willing to be around each other without
running amuck. This is kind of like telling them that they are both
family and family don't hurt family . As they lay there quietly talk to
them in a kind tone of voice or baby voice and soon they will be aware
of the tone of your voice and commands will be heard more often. Get a
book on child behavioral problems and you will be able to see where you
can teach them how to comprehend every word you say to them . It dose
take time and patience to do this . You may see a difference within a
week or so doing this . The dog is the new comer to the family and the
cat is hiding from him so you need to bring the cat to the problem and
let it face the fact that there is a new member of the family to deal
with . Don't let them stay together without your supervision this cold
traumatize the cat and she will never let the dog close to her . Also
use two types of tags on the dog and set them about 1/4 inch apart .
this will make them chime like a wind chime and the cat will know where
the dog is most of the time. the only time she will not know is when
the dog is not moving . She can still scan around for him and avoid
any contact if she wishes too.
Your cats fear needs to be the focus of the problem , the dog can since
the fear and this seems to be what triggers the big chase scenes around
the house .
I can only guess at some parts of the behavioral patterns but I hope
this helps in some way .
Approaching this as if they were children will help give you a better
understanding of how they feel towards each other and how you may be
able to help them. Keep an open mind for any help . Your kitty cat
needs your help .
Hope this helps ?
Jerry Howe
to train them. Jerry.
"Cindy Tittle Moore" <tit...@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
news:rA_H5.70976$bI6.2...@news1.giganews.com...
> In article <Z9_H5.54747$JS3.7...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>,
> cate <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote:
> >Is the reward actually getting the chance to chase, or is it the end
result
> >of her being gone?
>
> Could be either depending on the dog. From your description, I'd
lean
> toward the former being true in your case.
>
> --Cindy
>
Jerry Howe
"cate" <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote in message
news:Kp0I5.55138$JS3.8...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> "WebbWeave" <webb...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20001020133159...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
> > Quote:
> > Is the reward actually getting the chance to chase, or is it the
end
> result
> > of her being gone?
> >
> > The chase. He hasn't a concept of her being gone.
>
> Really? I'm operating on the analogy of the chase-the-mailman game.
Dog
> barks at mailman, mailman leaves. Isn't the reward that the dog's
barking
> caused the mailman to leave? Or is the agitation at the irritant--the
> mailman--the reward?
>
> Cate
>
>
>
Jerry Howe
FROM YOU. Jerry.
"cate" <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote in message
news:YF7I5.57870$JS3.8...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
Jerry Howe
"cate" <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote in message
news:CIoI5.66014$JS3.9...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> "WebbWeave" <webb...@aol.com> wrote in message
cate
news:18892-39...@storefull-166.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> I tried to email this but could not get thru.
My address is munged because it's being harvested by spammers.
> I think you may be able to solve your problem by bringing them closer
> together . Letting them have their own space is good but wont solve the
> problem your having . Claws or not you need to get them together more
> and more as you can. You can sit in a chair with the cat in your lap, (
> At first with a thick cover over your lap )
Are you a cat owner? <g> My cat will not be forced to sit on my lap ever,
and certainly not when the dog is near.
and the dog at your feet.
> Get them use to the fact that they have to live together and by doing
> this you will show them that they are both the same and you are the boss
> and this is what you expect of them. Offer them a treat only after
> they have shown that they are willing to be around each other without
> running amuck. This is kind of like telling them that they are both
> family and family don't hurt family .
I appreciate the intent here, but I'm not sure they'll ever be 'willing to
be around each other without running amok.' This situation has been in place
for 9 months; I've tried the forced introductions 4 or 5 times over several
weeks. At this rate, it'll be another year before they'll willingly be in
the same room. I've seen suggestions similar to yours; I believe I have a
dog-cat dynamic for which this suggestion is simplistic.
Cate
TO...@dog-play.com
>> Quote:
>> Is the reward actually getting the chance to chase, or is it the end
> result
>> of her being gone?
>>
>> The chase. He hasn't a concept of her being gone.
> Really? I'm operating on the analogy of the chase-the-mailman game. Dog
> barks at mailman, mailman leaves. Isn't the reward that the dog's barking
> caused the mailman to leave? Or is the agitation at the irritant--the
> mailman--the reward?
Wrong analogy. The mail carrier is an intruder/threat, not potential
prey. The mail carrier leaving relieves the sense of threat and is
thus a reward. Since the dog connects the barking to the leaving the
barking behabvior is strengthened.
Prey drive gets to the "feel good" state just by being aroused. Merely
lunging at the cat, without regard to the cat's reaction, carries a
certain level of satisfaction. To modify it, you have to react before
the prey drive actually kicks in - ie. as soon as the dog notices the
cat. It takes a lot of observation and consistency.
Diane Blackman
http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
Training is a game that you will play with our dog as long as he lives.
"Smart Trainers -- Brilliant Dogs" by Janet Lewis
Jerry Howe
It's all in there. Jerry.
"cate" <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote in message
news:lGGI5.69918$JS3.10...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
cate
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 18:46:02 GMT cate
<Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> whittled these words:
> > "WebbWeave" <webb...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20001020133159...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
>
> > Really? I'm operating on the analogy of the chase-the-mailman game. Dog
> > barks at mailman, mailman leaves. Isn't the reward that the dog's
barking
> > caused the mailman to leave? Or is the agitation at the irritant--the
> > mailman--the reward?
>
> Wrong analogy. The mail carrier is an intruder/threat, not potential
> prey.
Ah. Ok.
The mail carrier leaving relieves the sense of threat and is
> thus a reward. Since the dog connects the barking to the leaving the
> barking behabvior is strengthened.
>
> Prey drive gets to the "feel good" state just by being aroused. Merely
> lunging at the cat, without regard to the cat's reaction, carries a
> certain level of satisfaction. To modify it, you have to react before
> the prey drive actually kicks in - ie. as soon as the dog notices the
> cat. It takes a lot of observation and consistency.
It certainly does.
Cate
Jerry Howe
"cate" <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> wrote in message
> <Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> whittled these words:
> > > "WebbWeave" <webb...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > news:20001020133159...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
> >
> > > Really? I'm operating on the analogy of the chase-the-mailman
game. Dog
> > > barks at mailman, mailman leaves. Isn't the reward that the dog's
> barking
> > > caused the mailman to leave? Or is the agitation at the
irritant--the
> > > mailman--the reward?
> >
> > Wrong analogy. The mail carrier is an intruder/threat, not
potential
> > prey.
>
>
> The mail carrier leaving relieves the sense of threat and is
> > thus a reward. Since the dog connects the barking to the leaving
the
> > barking behabvior is strengthened.
> >
> > Prey drive gets to the "feel good" state just by being aroused.
Merely
> > lunging at the cat, without regard to the cat's reaction, carries a
> > certain level of satisfaction. To modify it, you have to react
before
> > the prey drive actually kicks in - ie. as soon as the dog notices
the
> > cat. It takes a lot of observation and consistency.
>
>
> Cate
INDEED.
black...@my-deja.com
Jerry Howe
<TO...@dog-play.com> wrote in message
news:8t0jrd$2n18$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 18:46:02 GMT cate
<Iwearmys...@night.soIcan.soIcan> whittled these words:
> > "WebbWeave" <webb...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20001020133159...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
> >> Quote:
> >> Is the reward actually getting the chance to chase, or is it the
end
> > result
> >> of her being gone?
> >>
> >> The chase. He hasn't a concept of her being gone.
>
> > Really? I'm operating on the analogy of the chase-the-mailman game.
Dog
> > barks at mailman, mailman leaves. Isn't the reward that the dog's
barking
> > caused the mailman to leave? Or is the agitation at the
irritant--the
> > mailman--the reward?
> Wrong analogy.
Says who? YOU? You have your own dog behavior problems you have NO
answers to.
> The mail carrier is an intruder/threat, not potential prey. The mail
carrier leaving
> relieves the sense of threat and is thus a reward.
Hardly. The reward is in the PROTECTION the dog is OFFERING. That's why
dogs BARK.
> Since the dog connects the barking to the leaving the
> barking behabvior is strengthened.
No. The dog connects barking to the arrival of the postman, and he
barking is the reward, the dog believes he's doing his JOB. That is in
the dogs job classifications in your state unemployment compensation
bureau. Dogs LIVE for their jobs.
> Prey drive gets to the "feel good" state just by being aroused.
Like when the postman comes?
> Merely lunging at the cat, without regard to the cat's reaction,
carries a
> certain level of satisfaction.
As with the POSTMAN?
> To modify it, you have to react before the prey drive actually kicks
in
EXCELLENT POINT. If you can do it. YOU'RE so clumsy, you can't even
jerk and choke your dog on time to stop him from pulling you into the
garbage cans.
> - ie. as soon as the dog notices the cat. It takes a lot of
observation and consistency.
Good point. As soon asd the dog NOTICES the KAT, THEN WHAT???
> Diane Blackman
> http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
> Training is a game that you will play with our dog as long as he
lives.
> "Smart Trainers -- Brilliant Dogs" by Janet Lewis
If janet lewis is the creative genius behind your misconceptions, she'd
better find a new line of work. Janet likes sharp leash corrections and
pronged choke collars just like YOU, doesn't she?
Correct me if I'm ronge.
By the way, blackguard, what part of koehler do you like best? I've got
some
QUOTES, of shooting dogs with BB's, slingshots, BEATING THEM with belts
and sticks, and twisting and pinching their ears and toes to MOTIVATE
them
and some ENDORSEMENTS from our Gang Of Thugs Members, including
professor dermer.
READ IT FOR YOURSELF, and then come back and call me a LIAR AGAIN, if
you DARE.
I like the part where we get to tie the dog next to a housetraining
mistake, and BEAT HIM every twenty minutes for the same mistake.
HOWE do you spose the dog understands koehler coming back every twenty
minutes to punish him again for the same mistake he's tied him up next
to, to housetrain him???
HOWE MUCH brains does it take to beat a dog every twenty minutes for
the same mistake you've tied it next to???
But I might like shooting them with a sling shot or BB gun better, you
know, to teach the dog to WANT to stay at home
Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
Koehler on correcting the housebreaking backslider.
"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will continue
to mess in the house. An indelible impression can
sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of
long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he's
made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals
and punish him again for the same thing. (Dogs are
REALLY stupid. J.H.)
In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light
spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate
punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well
as the house, if you really pour it on him."
Koehler on correcting the Barking Dog
Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt
that you've conveniently placed, and descend on him.
He'll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and
reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or, if
he's a big dog, until you've snubbed him up with a hitch
on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or
even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.)
While he's held in close, lay the strap vigorously against
his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it's the
bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat
on the number of repeat performances that will
be necessary. When you're finished and the dog is
convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think
things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or
twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the
area again."
Our professor of behavior Wisc. U., lyingdoc dermer
endorses koehler. (He said: "I punish dog's behavior,
NOT the dog."
You gonna believe THAT CRAP, PEOPLE???
Ask PROFESSOR DERMER to tell us HOWE the dog understands
koehler coming back every twenty minutes to punish him again
for the same mistake he's tied him up next to, to housetrain him???
Go ahead and ASK HIM. The dirty COWARD won't talk to me about it.
He won't talk to Marilyn about it, and he can't say SHE'S been INCIVIL
WITH HIM. We know HOWE SENSITIVE our koehler trainers are...
HOWE does koehler KNOW the dog don't think he's coming back to beat him
every twenty minutes for the same mistake, just because you're mad at
him, instead of just TRAINING him???
See what I mean? You can't justify that.
Tell us HOWE the dog knows he shouldn't be barking? That is, until the
beatings take effect, after ENOUGH lessons?
Tell us HOWE COME you think dogs might want to take a big chunk out of
an abusive Thug who beats him every twenty minutes for crappin on the
floor in a room you've restricted him to for this purpose, and then
tied him next to a forced accident?
And when koehler OCCASIONALLY finds a dog who objects to his training,
why does he HANG the dog, instead of calm them down and teach them
there's nothing to be afraid of???
That's the only question ANYONE of you CAN answer.
The answer is OBVIOUS.
koehler trainers are DOG ABUSING COWARDS
"Read koehler for content" Mark Shaw, Sadist, rpdb regular.
"I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn, pathological liar, noted dog abuser.
"There's much wisdom in koehler," deana pace. (Her dogs run away from
home.)
"Read koehler," lyingdogDUMMY. (koehler is all he understands.)
"Read koehler & cindymorons k-9 web faq's page," ludwig smith.
"Don't let him do that & read cindymooreon's web page," boob maida.
"I'm not a koehler trainer," cindymoron, lyinglynn,
lyingfrosty dahl. But they spout koehler's methods. They
don't consider themselves koehler trainers because they
shock, twist and pinch ears and toes, and BEAT DOGS
WITH STICKS to MOTIVATE them.
> lyinglynn writes:
> For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
> pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
> When he barks, use the line for a correction.
amy lyingfrosty dahl continues:
"I'm not a koehler trainer," cindymoron, lyinglynn,
lyingfrosty dahl. But they spout koehler's methods. They
don't consider themselves koehler trainers because they
shock, twist and pinch ears and toes, and BEAT DOGS
WITH STICKS to MOTIVATE them.
Yours for freedom of information, Jerry "Freedom Of Information Act,
Box10210 Pueblo, Colorado," Howe.
You can get all the information you need to properly handle and train
black...@my-deja.com
"Jerry Howe" <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> why dogs BARK.
Jerry Howe
"TRISHCAMP" <tris...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001020193726...@ng-cr1.aol.com...
> I have a question.
Is that so?
> Doesn't Orson need to learn that Cate does not want him
> chasing Emily, that it's a B-A-D thing?
HOWE are you fixing to TELL Orson the D-O-G, that chasing FLUFFY the
K-A-T, is B-A-D?
If you can answer THAT, you're a faster talker than marshall dermer,
our lying professor of "behavior" at U. of Wisc.
> When my guys became "teens", Sam (high prey drive, the bird &
squirrel killer)
FAST DOG, huh? You're proud of that too, I'll bet. Why not, just throw
them miserable critters right into the GARBAGE where they BELONG.
Hey, I've got no problem for KILLING, I just don't CONDONE UNNECESSARY,
MALICIOUS, SENSLESS, KILLING of INNOCENT LIFE...
> started to harass my Frank cat.
Gee, can't IMAGINE WHY???
> When I caught him doing it (and I watched for it), I grabbed him, got
in
> his face and spoke to him sternly.
And what did you TELL HIM? Hmm? And has it IMPROVED his DESIRE FOR
KILLING OTHER, HARMLESS, INNOCENT ANIMALS???
> He learned pretty quickly that it wasn't allowed--what am I missing
here?
Everything.
> Trish
That's not NICE.
By the way, what part of koehler do you like best? I've got some QUOTES
of shooting dogs with BB's, slingshots, BEATING THEM with belts and
sticks, and twisting and pinching their ears and toes to MOTIVATE them,
and some ENDORSEMENTS from our Gang Of Thugs Members, including
professor dermer.
READ IT FOR YOURSELF, and then come back and call me a LIAR, if
black...@my-deja.com
"Jerry Howe" <jh...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> HOWE are you fixing to TELL Orson the D-O-G, that chasing FLUFFY the
> K-A-T, is B-A-D?
black...@my-deja.com
> K-A-T, is B-A-D?