At our wit's end - cat with bloody urine
Jason Hardebeck
We have a 10 year old Himalayan female (CoCo) that is urinating and
defecating all over the house. There are no outside indications of pain or
discomfort; she appears to be in normal health. She has never been outside,
has only eaten Science Diet dry food, and shares the house with 2 other cats
with the same diet, no outside, good health, etc. Her urine has blood in it
(brown). This behavior really started about 6 to 8 months ago, and we took
her to her regular vet. They diagnosed UTI, prescribed antibiotics, but
only helped for a very short time. Took her back, they cultured the urine,
no bacteria/virus, figured they hadn't quite gotten the UTI under control,
prescribed more antibiotics, only short term relief once again. We changed
vets to a cat specialist. She took X-rays, didn't see any stones or masses,
and prescribed an antibiotic that we applied (transdermally?) by rubbing on
the cat's ear once daily (I believe it started with an L, Lovitil or
something?) It was also supposed to be effective for behavior modification
(slight tranquilizer effect?). We went through 40 days of applying 0.1 ml
to her ears, and had several urine events during the treatment. Now, the
treatment is finished, and she's gone back to her old ways. According to
the vet, there are several options:
Ultrasound - ~$400, to determine bladder cancer, masses, etc.
Exploratory surgery - ~$500
Dietary change - Some special wet food. $100's per year additional cost
over Science Diet. Not practical to feed her alone; all cats eat from same
bowls.
Additional drugs (I remember Pregnazone (sp?) as one of the possible
drugs) - more of a maintenance action, could go on for rest of her life.
Here's our quandary - we've spent over $600 over the last few months with no
solution in sight. We're facing at least another $500-$700 for ultrasound,
exams, etc., to determine the next step, which may not be a positive one,
and which will most like incur additional, ongoing expenses for drugs, food,
etc. CoCo has ruined all the bathroom carpets, and is on her way to
destroying all the wall-to-wall carpet in our house...not to mention the
smell that permeates the entire house. Our financial situation won't allow
us to continue to pay for exams and treatments that may not solve any
problems, especially in light of the potential for long-term, expensive,
daily drugs...we're at our wit's end. We never thought we'd be at a point
where we had to make a decision like this based in large part on financial
considerations, but it seems as if, from our vet and from reading the posts
on this board, that there's probably not a course of treatment that will
"make everything better" and restore CoCo back to health. Does anyone have
any ideas or suggestions about other potential causes or courses of action?
We find ourself faced with a very painful and very final decision? Thank
you again for your help.
Jason
Bel Air, Maryland
Bob Brenchley.
<ja...@hardebeck.org> wrote:
>Thanks in advance for any and all help.
>
[snip long story]
>
>Jason
>Bel Air, Maryland
>
Right Jason. Two things to recommend for starters. First, change the
diet. Feeding a cat exclusively on dry food often caused urinary
problems. Change to a diet that is mostly tinned - the cat the absorbs
the water it needs from the food (as it would in the wild) rather than
from separate drinking.
Next, your cat really would benefit from spending some time outdoors.
It is possible that the problem is not medical but psychological and
keeping a cat indoors 24/7 is far from ideal.
If the problem has go on this long then my bet is that it is not
something antibiotics will cure. You therefore need to look beyond
your vet(s) for the next step.
--
Bob.
Cats know what we feel. They don't always care, but they know.
J Wootton
> Thanks in advance for any and all help.
>
> We have a 10 year old Himalayan female (CoCo) that is urinating and
> defecating all over the house. There are no outside indications of pain or
> discomfort; she appears to be in normal health. She has never been outside,
> has only eaten Science Diet dry food, and shares the house with 2 other cats
> with the same diet, no outside, good health, etc. Her urine has blood in it
> (brown). This behavior really started about 6 to 8 months ago, and we took
> her to her regular vet.
My cats start peeing blood when they are stressed. When were all the cats there,
vs the start of the problem? (sequence of additions). Did anything else happen
in the household that might have started CoCo to be stressed?
Has your vet not done other urinalysis to determine if the cat is on correct
diet for her health , age and particular kidney health? Having crystals in
one's urine might be painful enough to cause the defecation problem.
Mine's PH's were totally different so we changed catfoods to a brand available
only at the vet's (and good for both cats). One can have a bit of the old kind
or treats, the other never. After a year on this diet, both problems seem to
have been stopped
Running her back and forth to the vet might be stressful in itself..so you get
into vicious cycles... (was in mine once they got back, they'd promptly pee
bloody urine). I collect urine samples at home now.
So it went like this, once we kind of figured out what was going on:
1) Antibiotics (clavamox) & 2) new foods (it's worth the $100 a year, rather
than all the tests, isn't it?
3) re-check urine after one course (I took it in myself, rather than taking in
the cats)
4) re-check urine about 3 months (or if blood started showing up, earlier)
5) antibiotics, longer course
6) re-check urine after 2nd course (I took it in myself, rather than taking in
the cats)
Took about a year, but they're now stabilized but I will continue to take urine
in, perhaps every 3 months to monitor.
Also monitor that she's drinking adquate amounts of water or ask vet if she can
be switched to canned...mine hate canned anymore (even the vet's kind). They
either ignore it and I start to worry after a few days when they're not eating,
or they barf (with the commercial stuff).
Cats should never all eat out of the same bowl.
1) hard to monitor which cat is eating or if one has stopped.
2) they don't usually like being in each other's faces, would you?
3) some require different diets..
it IS possible to feed them separately, get creative ;-)
4) Perhaps it's time for dietary and other changes anyways, before the other two
start developing problems?
Not a vet, ask yours if it's worth a try. In the meantime, please know the
signs of a "depressed cat". Cats can go downhill very fast due to a
health/kidney problem. Then the $$$ you've already spent would have been wasted
anyways right? IMO it's just not worth doing things halfway..you can either
have "throwaway" cats or cats you treat like a member of the family (and be
prepared for special dietary and health problems/requirement)
Just a few ideas
Hope this helps
Jean
elaine
Don't give up yet. This is a curable condition. Basically, your cat
has what used to be called FUS and is now called FLUTD. Do some
internet searches and read up.
The syndrome is usually caused by crystals (very common), infection
(actually quite rare), and inflammation (common if one of the other
two is happening), often in combination.
Your cat has been treated for infection and the urine cultures are now
negative. This is probably no longer a concern.
You mention some scans to look for stones (presumably oxalate) but
don't say what the urine pH was. Urine pH test is cheap :) If it is
too alkaline, the cat may be getting struvite crystals. This is why
the vet is recommending a special diet. The cat will go on a very
acidifying diet short term, to dissolve existing crystals, then a
somewhat less acidifying diet over the long term, to prevent new
crystals from forming.
The long-term food isn't significantly more expensive than a premium
food. Wet food is better than dry as increasing water intake is very
important to preventing recurrence. However, if the expense of wet
food is prohibitive, you can presoak dry food in extra water. She &
the other cats can learn to eat up out of her own dish at set feeding
times, rather than leaving food out all the time for everyone. Odds
are this diet change will solve the problem in a few weeks if in fact
it's a struvite problem. Oh yeah, there are several brands too so you
can check out which one your kitty likes, and they vary a bit in price
so you could try to save some $ by comparison shopping.
The prednisone is an antiinflammatory. It would probably be temporary,
not lifelong. It's an inexpensive drug. Think about a bunch of sharp
little crystals swirling around scratching the bladder, getting
infections on top...you'd have blood and inflammation too. But if you
get the crystals cleared up, things should subside. There are some
cats where they have inflammation and cystitis without the crystals,
but you haven't ruled out the crystals yet. So do the simple,
relatively cheap thing of changing the diet and give that some time to
work...with any luck the inflammation will go down and the cuts will
heal up without further infection and kitty will be cured.
If the crystals block the urethra totally sometimes surgery is needed
to open the passageway up, but this is usually just in male cats.
Ideally, a vet would like more tests to be able to know exactly what's
happening. But if it's too expensive, you can try to rule common
things out with trial and error. You've done antibiotics for
infection. The vet's suggesting trying new food for crystals and a
cheap prescription for inflammation. Go for it. If they work, it's
better than the alternative! If the diet change and/or
antiinflammatories don't work, then you may have to decide about more
expensive tests for other problems.
Remember too that this syndrome tends to flare up periodically,
usually within the first few weeks or months. It takes a while for
everything to heal. Some cats have an "attack" once every couple of
years. But most are fine as long as care is taken with diet and water
intake.
Clean up all the pee spots with an enzyme based cleaner so the cats
don't think all those places are new litterboxes :) Our guy was peeing
all over the living room until we got his FLUTD fixed and he's never
repeated that behaviour since.
Good luck,
Elaine
(not a vet but I've got a FLUTD cat that went the whole 9
yards...surgery and all...and he's been fine for years now)
elaine
<B...@Format.Publications.ukf.net> wrote:
>Next, your cat really would benefit from spending some time outdoors.
>It is possible that the problem is not medical but psychological and
>keeping a cat indoors 24/7 is far from ideal.
This has nothing to do with the medical condition being described in
the original post. If the problem is behavioural, which is unlikely,
this is *not* the solution recommended by animal health care experts.
>If the problem has go on this long then my bet is that it is not
>something antibiotics will cure. You therefore need to look beyond
>your vet(s) for the next step.
Also bad advice...the vet has made several well accepted suggestions
for the treatment of FLUTD, the most likely cause of this cat's
problems, including diet change and prescription anti-inflammatories.
These should be tried first.
Alternative health care practitioners do the same type of things in
treatment of this disease (eg. use Vitamin C to acidify, while vets
use dl-methionine). Both recommend increased water intake, etc.
This cat definitely needs medical treatment or it could die and
suggesting that the owner "look beyond" veterinary advice suggests you
have no genuine interest in this pet's welfare.
Elaine
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>On Sat, 23 Sep 2000 14:25:17 +0100, Bob Brenchley.
><B...@Format.Publications.ukf.net> wrote:
>
>>Next, your cat really would benefit from spending some time outdoors.
>>It is possible that the problem is not medical but psychological and
>>keeping a cat indoors 24/7 is far from ideal.
>
>This has nothing to do with the medical condition being described in
>the original post. If the problem is behavioural, which is unlikely,
>this is *not* the solution recommended by animal health care experts.
If there no physical reason, and no infection is detected, it may well
be psychological - even with the blood in the urine.
Now, given the desperation I saw in the original post, it is clear
that the cats behaviour needs to be modified just as much as treatment
for the urinary tract problem.
Allowing the cat outside for at least part of the day can only help
the poor thing. It is a vicious circle at the moment and it needs to
be broken. Keeping he in a small room with her litter tray at night,
and letting her out during the day, will make life a lot easier for
all parties.
>
>
>>If the problem has go on this long then my bet is that it is not
>>something antibiotics will cure. You therefore need to look beyond
>>your vet(s) for the next step.
>
>Also bad advice...the vet has made several well accepted suggestions
>for the treatment of FLUTD, the most likely cause of this cat's
>problems, including diet change and prescription anti-inflammatories.
>These should be tried first.
Look, the vet clearly does not know what he is doing as the post says
the poor cat is still being fed dry food - the very last thing any
competent vet would recommend at this point.
>
>Alternative health care practitioners do the same type of things in
>treatment of this disease (eg. use Vitamin C to acidify, while vets
>use dl-methionine). Both recommend increased water intake, etc.
But that water intake must be increased by feeding canned food NOT by
giving the poor thing more water to drink. Water drunk from a bowl is
not good for a cat with urinary tract problems.
>
>This cat definitely needs medical treatment or it could die and
>suggesting that the owner "look beyond" veterinary advice suggests you
>have no genuine interest in this pet's welfare.
Clearly there is a problem that is not being cured by antibiotics. The
cat clearly is not being fed correctly, is almost certainly under a
great deal of stress (because no matter how much they love that cat,
and no matter how much they may try to avoid punishing the cat for its
peeing, the cat sure as hell knows its in the doghouse).
Continue the way they are going and I see one dead cat in weeks rather
than months.
By all means keep seeing the vet. But for god's sake get the poor cat
of a diet that is almost certainly doing more harm than good and get
its stress levels down by letting the poor thing go outside for a
while.
>
>Elaine
--
Bob.
Looking forward to the start of the new millennium on January 1st
2001.
Phil P.
Jason Hardebeck <ja...@hardebeck.org> wrote in message
news:6K1z5.3392$rQ5.4...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
> Thanks in advance for any and all help.
>
> We have a 10 year old Himalayan female (CoCo) that is urinating and
> defecating all over the house. There are no outside indications of
pain or
> discomfort; she appears to be in normal health. She has never been
outside,
> has only eaten Science Diet dry food, and shares the house with 2
other cats
> with the same diet, no outside, good health, etc. Her urine has blood
in it
Sounds to me like your cat is associating the litter box with painful
urination. Blood in the urine (hematuria) is one of the symptoms of
cystitis - and since no cause can be found, idiopathic cystitis. Severe
crystalluria may aggravate an already inflamed bladder, however, you did
not mention crystals being found in the urine, therefore, feeding an
acidified diet to lower urine pH will probably not do much, if any,
good. In fact, it may do more harm than good. Chronic acidification
can lead to metabolic acidosis, demineralization of bone, and possibly
renal failure.
Because you're feeding dry food, my best advice would be changing to a
high quality canned food such as Nutro Natural Choice or Nutro Max Cat.
Most cats with similar problems as yours are fed dry food. This does
not mean that dry food consumption causes IC, but it could mean that dry
food consumption unmasks or aggravates the disorder in cats that are
predisposed to it (making it a nutrient-sensitive rather than a
diet-induced disease).
These are the results of a recent study:
"Clinical Implications: Results suggest that idiopathic cystitis occurs
commonly in cats with stranguria, hematuria, pollakiuria, or
inappropriate
elimination and is associated with consumption of dry foods. Contrast
radiography or cystoscopy is necessary for differentiating idiopathic
cystitis from behavioral disorders in some cats."
J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997 Jan 1;210(1):46-50
In the above study, clinical signs of cystitis resolved in most of the
cats after the diet was changed to canned food of the same premium
brand.
Switch to Nutro canned and let us know how she does.
http://maxshouse.com/feline_urological_syndrome_fus.htm
http://maxshouse.com/feline_urological_syndrome_fus.htm#Cystitis
http://maxshouse.com/feline_urological_syndrome_fus.htm#Interstitial
Good luck.
Phil.
--
"With the qualities of cleanliness, discretion, affection, patience,
dignity, and courage that cats have, how many of us,
I ask you, would be capable of being cats?' --Fernand Mery
Feline Healthcare & More: http://maxshouse.com
> (brown). This behavior really started about 6 to 8 months ago, and we
took
kathleen richards
ago with similar symptoms (not as much blood in the urine though). She turned
out to have leukemia. You might try testing the cat for that and for FIP and
"feline aids" (FIV?). Good luck!
ibidem
> <B...@Format.Publications.ukf.net> wrote:
> >Next, your cat really would benefit from spending some time outdoors.
> >It is possible that the problem is not medical but psychological and
> >keeping a cat indoors 24/7 is far from ideal.
elaine wrote:
> This cat definitely needs medical treatment or it could die and
> suggesting that the owner "look beyond" veterinary advice suggests you
> have no genuine interest in this pet's welfare.
Elaine-
Perhaps you're aware of it, but others may not be. This "bobity"
brenchley (who also posts as sally jackson, jenn at hotmail,
frank,esq....) showed up on alt.cats declaring his intention to "punish"
people on that NG. He's acting maliciously, and, as far as I can tell,
doesn't even have cats, let alone actually like them.
Everyone, do take caution with his advice. His only purpose is to cause
contention, and much of what he says will actively harm cats.
--
Paul
*the Word Wizard(TM) formerly known as konengro*
Phil P.
elaine <eg...@telusplanetx.net> wrote in message
news:39ccc483...@news.telusplanet.net...
> On Sat, 23 Sep 2000 14:25:17 +0100, Bob Brenchley.
> <B...@Format.Publications.ukf.net> wrote:
>
> >Next, your cat really would benefit from spending some time outdoors.
> >It is possible that the problem is not medical but psychological and
> >keeping a cat indoors 24/7 is far from ideal.
>
> the original post. If the problem is behavioural, which is unlikely,
> this is *not* the solution recommended by animal health care experts.
That's not entirely accurate. Stress may very well be a contributing
factor in IC (if it is IC).This is a quote from an "animal care expert":
"We believe that stress is important in the development of recurrence of
signs in cats with IC and may be important in precipitating the first
episode of signs in susceptible animals. Unfortunately, stress is
difficult to quantitate. A detailed history is necessary to expose
"stressors" in a cat's life, which may include changes in the
environment, weather, activity, diet, feeding schedule, use of the
litterpan, owner's schedule, additions or subtractions from the
household population of humans or animals, and other factors. Regimens
to reduce stress may prove essential in the management of cats with IC.
To reduce environmental stress, we recommend that the cat be provided
places to hide and opportunities to express the natural predatory
behavior of cats. These opportunities can include climbing posts and
toys that can be chased and caught."
C.A. Tony Buffington, D.V.M., Ph.D.,
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Nutrition; Associate
Professor, Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of Veterinary
Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio State
University, Columbus, Ohio; Head, Nutrition Support Service, Veterinary
Teaching Hospital, The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio
Phil.
--
"Cat people are different, to the extent that they
generally are not conformists.
How could the be, with a cat running their lives?"
--Louis Camuti
Feline Healthcare: http://maxshouse.com
>
>
> >If the problem has go on this long then my bet is that it is not
> >something antibiotics will cure. You therefore need to look beyond
> >your vet(s) for the next step.
>
> Also bad advice...the vet has made several well accepted suggestions
> for the treatment of FLUTD, the most likely cause of this cat's
> problems, including diet change and prescription anti-inflammatories.
> These should be tried first.
>
> Alternative health care practitioners do the same type of things in
> treatment of this disease (eg. use Vitamin C to acidify, while vets
> use dl-methionine). Both recommend increased water intake, etc.
>
hunnybunnyfunnybunnyŠ
of diet. Your cat needs to increase her water intake and the best
way to do that is with canned food. It may seem expensive now,
but look at all the vet bills you'll save in the future.
For some reason, Himmies seem to be predisposed to this
condition (I wonder if their laidback nature masks their stress,
and it comes out in this manner?)
Another possibility is that she has taken a dislike to her
litter, for whatever reason. Have you changed brands recently?
What brand do you use? I've just been through this with one of my
3 Himmies, blood and all, but no obvious reason. Turns out she
did NOT like the new litter. But I've switched to canned food to
be on the safe side.
Please don't give up on CoCO. She's given you 10 lovely years and
needs your help now.
hbfb
--
says hunnybunnyfunnybunny:
Come and meet my family (furry and not) @
http://millennium.fortunecity.com/treearbor/834/index.html
Jason Hardebeck <ja...@hardebeck.org> wrote in message
news:6K1z5.3392$rQ5.4...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
> Thanks in advance for any and all help.
>
> We have a 10 year old Himalayan female (CoCo) that is urinating
and
> defecating all over the house. There are no outside indications
of pain or
> discomfort; she appears to be in normal health. She has never
been outside,
> has only eaten Science Diet dry food, and shares the house with
2 other cats
> with the same diet, no outside, good health, etc. Her urine
has blood in it
Jason Hardebeck
We want to thank everyone for your wonderful response and great advice; it's
given us hope and renewed our commitment to solve CoCo's affliction! It
would take me all day to respond to each and every post, so please accept
this as blanket thanks for your time, effort, and caring in helping us deal
with CoCo's condition. I'll try to summarize some answers to questions
raised, as well as ask a few more:
Judging from all the posts and web sites recommended, it appears as if CoCo
is suffering from either idiopathic cystitis, FUS, or FLUTD; are those
diagnoses in conflict or complementary? Sorry for my thickheadedness, but
they all start to sound the same. How do they differ? Do they all have the
same treatment? It seems that they all call for a dietary change to canned
food, but I'm still not clear if they have conflicting treatments otherwise.
(i.e., if we treat for idiopathic cystitis and it's actually FUS, are we
doing more harm than good?)
CoCo's urine is brown; we've never seen bright red blood in the urine.
That's part of the frustration....there's no apparent outward signs of
discomfort or pain. Matter of fact, she seems to be more affectionate
recently....maybe she's trying to ask us to help! Also, we've never seen
any crystals in her urine; are they visible? Would I see them when she has
an accident on the carpet? I'm sorry for not knowing the pH; it was
probably done by the vet, but I don't recall.
There's been no new events that have added stress to CocCo's life, at least
that we're aware of. I appreciate some folks thoughts that she might like
to go outside, but that's not feasible. She has no claws, no fleas, and no
apparent desire...she's rather content to hang out with her buddies inside!
And since the red fox is making a strong comeback in Maryland, I'd rather
not have that to worry about as well. CoCo and her buddies have shared 3
litter boxes for years and years, and we use a clumping litter (Precious
Cat, I think) that they've never had any issues with.
We've always been under the impression that a canned food diet was *bad* for
cats; that's why all 3 have been on Science Diet dry for their entire lives.
After I read your posts yesterday, I went right out and bought about 30 cans
of food. I heard one recommendation for NutroMax; are there any other
thoughts on brands for CoCo's condition? Would the choice be different if
it was idiopathic cystitis vs. FUS vs. FLUTD? We are segregating CoCo in
the morning to let her eat her canned food in peace. Her buddies (an 18 lb.
domestic longhair male and a 8 lb. Calico) are both much more aggressive and
HUNGRY...CoCo thinks this is a special treat to eat canned food by herself.
By the way, all our cats are fixed.
As far as pain relievers/analgesics, any recommendations? It takes 4 strong
men (with long sleeves and up-to-date tetanus) to give her a pill, although
canned food presents a feasible way to get a pill into her. We've heard
that Valium has been successful (anecdotally); anything else? If we were to
ask our vet for a prescription, what types of drugs would she prescribe?
Once again, thanks to all of you. These newsgroups are responsible for
giving CoCo a new lease on life, literally, and rekindled our hope that we
can save her, and we all are grateful.
Jason
Phil P.
> To all,
>
> We want to thank everyone for your wonderful response and great
advice; it's
> given us hope and renewed our commitment to solve CoCo's affliction!
It
> would take me all day to respond to each and every post, so please
accept
> this as blanket thanks for your time, effort, and caring in helping us
deal
> with CoCo's condition. I'll try to summarize some answers to
questions
> raised, as well as ask a few more:
>
> Judging from all the posts and web sites recommended, it appears as if
CoCo
> is suffering from either idiopathic cystitis, FUS, or FLUTD; are those
> diagnoses in conflict or complementary?
"FUS" and "FLUTD" are used in the same context although the terms are
being less commonly used by the veterinary profession as diagnostic
terms. FUS/FLUTD is not a diagnosis any more than vomiting or pruritus
are diagnoses. Idiopathic feline urinary tract disease is an exclusion
diagnosis established only after known causes have been excluded.
"Cystitis", by definition, is inflammination of the bladder, but
considered a part of FUS by some vets.
Sorry for my thickheadedness, but
> they all start to sound the same. How do they differ?
The terms "feline urologic syndrome" and "FUS" or "FLUTD" are terms used
to describe disorders of cats characterized by hematuria (blood in the
urine), dysuria (painful or difficult urination), pollakiuria
(abnormally frequent urination), and partial or complete urethral
obstruction (blockage). "Cystitis" is inflammination of the bladder.
Various combinations of these signs can be associated with any cause of
lower urinary tract disease in cats. Some if not many veterinarians
will use the term "FUS" to describe cats with cystitis, crystals in the
urine or bladder stones. While this usage may not technically be
correct, these signs can be associated with any cause of lower urinary
tract disease in cats. There's been a long-standing disagreement on
this terminology. The trend among vets is turning towards more specific
diagnoses, e.g., "crystalluria" for crustals in the urine, "cystitis"
for inflammination of the bladder, "hematuria" for blood in the urine,
etc., rather than the non-specific and often confusing "FUS".
Do they all have the
> same treatment? It seems that they all call for a dietary change to
canned
> food, but I'm still not clear if they have conflicting treatments
otherwise.
> (i.e., if we treat for idiopathic cystitis and it's actually FUS, are
we
> doing more harm than good?)
You're correct about dietary change to canned. This is the primary
therapy for all urinary tract diseases, although specific diseases
usually require additional therapies to canned food, switching to canned
food is usually recommended as part of the therapy for each (all)
urinary tract diseases. You can *never* go wrong by switching to canned
food. In fact, canned food may prevent urinary tract disease in cats -
especially in cats predisposed to urinary tract disease and male cats
who are at a greater risk of urinary tract obstruction.
>
> CoCo's urine is brown;
I would be *very* concerned about brown urine. Brown urine develops
when bilirubin is present in the urine and may indicate liver disease.
I strongly suggest you have her thoroughly examined with a complete
diagnostic work-up including a complete blood count (CBC), biochemestry
profile (chem screen - blood chemistry), and complete urinalysis
(Multistix, SpGr, Sediment) as soon as possible.
we've never seen bright red blood in the urine.
> That's part of the frustration....there's no apparent outward signs of
> discomfort or pain. Matter of fact, she seems to be more affectionate
> recently....maybe she's trying to ask us to help! Also, we've never
seen
> any crystals in her urine; are they visible? Would I see them when
she has
> an accident on the carpet?
No, you can not see crystals with a naked eye unless they're huge.
I'm sorry for not knowing the pH; it was
> probably done by the vet, but I don't recall.
>
> There's been no new events that have added stress to CocCo's life, at
least
> that we're aware of. I appreciate some folks thoughts that she might
like
> to go outside, but that's not feasible. She has no claws,
Declawing is *more* than enough to stress out a cat. Many cats are so
traumatized by the painful disjointing and amputation of the third
phalanx they develop all sorts of physical and psychological disorders -
some become biters and others mark with urine that which they cannot
mark with their claws.
no fleas, and no
> apparent desire...she's rather content to hang out with her buddies
inside!
I strongly suggest you keep a declawed cat *indoors* since her primary
means of defense have been amputated.
> And since the red fox is making a strong comeback in Maryland, I'd
rather
> not have that to worry about as well. CoCo and her buddies have
shared 3
> litter boxes for years and years, and we use a clumping litter
(Precious
> Cat, I think) that they've never had any issues with.
>
> We've always been under the impression that a canned food diet was
*bad* for
> cats;
Quite the contrary. Canned food is *better* for a cat (sick or healthy)
than dry food. Several studies confirm this fact.
that's why all 3 have been on Science Diet dry for their entire lives.
> After I read your posts yesterday, I went right out and bought about
30 cans
> of food. I heard one recommendation for NutroMax; are there any other
> thoughts on brands for CoCo's condition?
Nutro is one of the best. However, depending on the results of the
examination, urinalysis and blood work, your vet may prescribe a
prescription diet.
Would the choice be different if
> it was idiopathic cystitis vs. FUS vs. FLUTD? We are segregating CoCo
in
> the morning to let her eat her canned food in peace. Her buddies (an
18 lb.
> domestic longhair male and a 8 lb. Calico) are both much more
aggressive and
> HUNGRY...CoCo thinks this is a special treat to eat canned food by
herself.
> By the way, all our cats are fixed.
>
> As far as pain relievers/analgesics, any recommendations? It takes 4
strong
> men (with long sleeves and up-to-date tetanus) to give her a pill,
although
> canned food presents a feasible way to get a pill into her. We've
heard
> that Valium has been successful (anecdotally); anything else?
Do not use valium in cats unless absolutely necessary and expressly
ordered by a veterinarian. Valium has been reported to cause liver
failure in cats. Also, do not use any pain killers *especially* aspirin
and Tylenol - they are fatal to cats. Do not give *any* medication,
human or otherwise, to a cat without specific instructions from a vet.
If we were to
> ask our vet for a prescription, what types of drugs would she
prescribe?
After a complete examination and diagnostic work-up, you're vet will
decide which medications your cat needs.
>
> Once again, thanks to all of you. These newsgroups are responsible
for
> giving CoCo a new lease on life, literally, and rekindled our hope
that we
> can save her, and we all are grateful.
>
> Jason
Good luck.
Phil
elaine
wrote:
> Stress may very well be a contributing
>factor in IC (if it is IC).This is a quote from an "animal care expert":
>
>"
>To reduce environmental stress, we recommend that the cat be provided
>places to hide and opportunities to express the natural predatory
>behavior of cats. These opportunities can include climbing posts and
>toys that can be chased and caught."
Hi,
Lack of clarity on my part :)
I meant: the suggestion that an indoor cat be turned outdoors (with a
urinary blockage problem!) was an illconsidered and inexpert
suggestion.
I agree totally that stress can contribute to the problem. I spent
hours and hours with my FLUTD cat pampering him when he was stressed
out by vet visit, medication, diet changes, etc. and I'm sure it
helped.
Elaine
elaine
<ja...@hardebeck.org> wrote:
>CoCo's urine is brown; we've never seen bright red blood in the urine.
>That's part of the frustration....there's no apparent outward signs of
>discomfort or pain. Matter of fact, she seems to be more affectionate
>recently....maybe she's trying to ask us to help! Also, we've never seen
>any crystals in her urine; are they visible? Would I see them when she has
>an accident on the carpet? I'm sorry for not knowing the pH; it was
>probably done by the vet, but I don't recall.
Hi again,
If you happen to see the pee spot when it is fresh, the blood will
look red or pink, depending on how much is in the pee. It the pee spot
is older, the blood may have started to turn brown. Sometimes there's
a pee puddle with just a spot of blood in it, and sometimes the whole
sample is tinged with blood. On a hard surface if your cat has tons of
large crystals you can actually see them, especially once the urine
dries...it can look like sand or salt. But smaller crystals can only
be seen by looking at the urine under a microscope. I even had a cat
with a bladder infection who peed out inflammed tissue that had shed
from her bladder wall, which looked like snot (pardon the graphic
description:) At any rate, examine the urine carefully and let your
vet know what you observe.
>As far as pain relievers/analgesics, any recommendations? It takes 4 strong
>men (with long sleeves and up-to-date tetanus) to give her a pill, although
>canned food presents a feasible way to get a pill into her. We've heard
>that Valium has been successful (anecdotally); anything else? If we were to
>ask our vet for a prescription, what types of drugs would she prescribe?
If your vet prescribes Elavil, which is common in these cases, make
sure you get some gelatin capsules and put the pills into the capsules
first. The slightest taste of the pill (they're vile!!!!!!!) and your
cat will be beserk and you'll never get another Elavil pill within a
foot of it again.
On your other questions...what Phil said :)
Regards,
Elaine
elaine
wrote:
>that's why all 3 have been on Science Diet dry for their entire lives.
>> After I read your posts yesterday, I went right out and bought about
>30 cans
>> of food. I heard one recommendation for NutroMax; are there any other
>> thoughts on brands for CoCo's condition?
>
>Nutro is one of the best. However, depending on the results of the
>examination, urinalysis and blood work, your vet may prescribe a
>prescription diet.
Oh, tut tut Phil at maxhouse for such brand loyalty :)
Btw, Nutro probably is one of the best, but there are many other
premium foods including Royal Canin, Sensible Choice, Iams, Science
Diet, Nature's Recipe, Eukanuba, etc.
Phil's correct that your vet will likely prescribe a prescription diet
in any event.
Elaine
elaine
wrote:
>Because you're feeding dry food, my best advice would be changing to a
>high quality canned food such as Nutro Natural Choice or Nutro Max Cat.
>Most cats with similar problems as yours are fed dry food.
>J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997 Jan 1;210(1):46-50
>
>In the above study, clinical signs of cystitis resolved in most of the
>cats after the diet was changed to canned food of the same premium
>brand.
>
>Switch to Nutro canned and let us know how she does.
>
>http://maxshouse.com/feline_urological_syndrome_fus.htm
>http://maxshouse.com/feline_urological_syndrome_fus.htm#Cystitis
>http://maxshouse.com/feline_urological_syndrome_fus.htm#Interstitial
>
>Good luck.
>
>Phil.
Hi,
Far be it from me to suggest that Phil at maxshouse.com might be a
tiny bit prejudiced in favour of Nutro Max foods :)
Our vet suggested (for cats with struvite crystals as part of their
FLUTD syndrome) that *if* the prescription diets were effective, after
about 6 months one might be able to try a switch to a premium brand
cat food, *if* urine pH was remaining normal. Wet being better than
dry. And a brand acidified with dl-methionine being better than not.
She suggested *any* of the premium brands would be OK for a trial,
including Iams & Science Diet, or naturally preserved brands like
Nutro, Sensible Choice, Royal Canin, Nature's Blend, etc. If problems
came up, however, it would be back to the prescription foods. Which
incidentally are not limited to Hills, but also include Walthams,
Medical and Eukanuba.
If the cat's main problem is cystitis then from what I've read water
intake does seem to be emerging as key, and a premium wet food might
well be what you need. Again, many different brands:) But very often
cystitis and crystals go together as part of the syndrome, so the
prescription brands will be necessary as part of the initial
treatment, at least. Discuss all this with your vet, rather than being
too reliant on newsgroup advice.
:)
Elaine
Melissa
The vet Clinic where I work has had good results using Cosequin (or another
glucosamine supplement) for a condition called interstitial cystitis. IC
causes bloody urine without a bacteria infection present.
Just a thought.
Melissa
Phil P.
a
> >high quality canned food such as Nutro Natural Choice or Nutro Max
Cat.
> >Most cats with similar problems as yours are fed dry food.
>
> >
> >In the above study, clinical signs of cystitis resolved in most of
the
> >cats after the diet was changed to canned food of the same premium
> >brand.
> >
> >Switch to Nutro canned and let us know how she does.
> >
> >http://maxshouse.com/feline_urological_syndrome_fus.htm
> >http://maxshouse.com/feline_urological_syndrome_fus.htm#Cystitis
> >http://maxshouse.com/feline_urological_syndrome_fus.htm#Interstitial
> >
> >Good luck.
> >
> >Phil.
>
>
> Far be it from me to suggest that Phil at maxshouse.com might be a
> tiny bit prejudiced in favour of Nutro Max foods :)
maybe just a tiny bit... ;)
>
> Our vet suggested (for cats with struvite crystals as part of their
> FLUTD syndrome) that *if* the prescription diets were effective, after
> about 6 months one might be able to try a switch to a premium brand
> cat food, *if* urine pH was remaining normal.
Feeding pattern also affects urine pH. Feeding releases bicarbonate
which results in a postprandial (after eating) alkaline tide. Ad
libitum (free feeding) tends to keep the urine alkaline throughout the
day increasing the risk of struvite formation. Although twice a day
feeding raises urine pH higher (because of a larger meal) than ad
libitum feeding, the time between feedings allows normal urine acidity
to return and dissolve struvite that may have formed. The presence of
crystals in urine indicates that either the urine is not sufficiently
acidified or insufficient time has elapsed for crystals to dissolve.
Cats have a naturally acidic urine, therefore, acidifiers shouldn't be
necessary if meals are spaced far enough apart. Additionally, the
higher water turnover achieved by feeding canned food helps eliminate
crystals before they grow to sufficient size to interfere with normal
urinary function.
Wet being better than
> dry.
Absolutely!
>And a brand acidified with dl-methionine being better than not.
Dl-methionine is a very effective acidifier, however, it causes
hemolytic anemia in cats resulting from RBC inclusions called "Heinz
Bodies" (clumps of oxidized, denatured hemoglobin) - a concern because
cats have oxidant-sensitive hemoglobin. (Normal cats have Heinz bodies
in ~5% of RBC). However, the dl-methionine levels in Nutro products is
far below the danger zone. (another reason I'm a tiny bit prejudiced in
favour of Nutro)
> She suggested *any* of the premium brands would be OK for a trial,
> including Iams & Science Diet, or naturally preserved brands like
> Nutro, Sensible Choice, Royal Canin, Nature's Blend, etc. If problems
> came up, however, it would be back to the prescription foods. Which
> incidentally are not limited to Hills, but also include Walthams,
> Medical and Eukanuba.
>
> If the cat's main problem is cystitis then from what I've read water
> intake does seem to be emerging as key,
Absolutely correct. The urine concentration of all solutes, including
potentially calculogenic crystalloids, depends on urine volume. Cats fed
canned food and meat diets have higher urine volumes and slightly lower
urine specific gravity values than cats fed dry food.
and a premium wet food might
> well be what you need. Again, many different brands:) But very often
> cystitis and crystals go together as part of the syndrome,
Benefits of increased water intake could include dilution of any noxious
substances in urine, more frequent urination to decrease bladder contact
time with urine, and removal of any excess crystals.
so the
> prescription brands will be necessary as part of the initial
> treatment, at least. Discuss all this with your vet, rather than being
> too reliant on newsgroup advice.
Absolutely. ;)
> :)
> Elaine
Phil
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>On Sat, 23 Sep 2000 22:30:54 GMT, "Phil P." <ph...@maxshouse.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Stress may very well be a contributing
>>factor in IC (if it is IC).This is a quote from an "animal care expert":
>>
>>"
>>To reduce environmental stress, we recommend that the cat be provided
>>places to hide and opportunities to express the natural predatory
>>behavior of cats. These opportunities can include climbing posts and
>>toys that can be chased and caught."
>
>Hi,
>
>Lack of clarity on my part :)
>
>I meant: the suggestion that an indoor cat be turned outdoors (with a
>urinary blockage problem!) was an illconsidered and inexpert
>suggestion.
Is it, I'll lay odd it will greatly reduce stress both for the cat and
its owners.
>
>I agree totally that stress can contribute to the problem. I spent
>hours and hours with my FLUTD cat pampering him when he was stressed
>out by vet visit, medication, diet changes, etc. and I'm sure it
>helped.
Not as much as fresh air and sunshine would have.
>
>Elaine
--
Bob.
It isn't premarital sex if you don't get married.
Sally Jackson
<ibi...@coldcuts.worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.cats:
>> On Sat, 23 Sep 2000 14:25:17 +0100, Bob Brenchley.
>> <B...@Format.Publications.ukf.net> wrote:
>> >Next, your cat really would benefit from spending some time outdoors.
>> >It is possible that the problem is not medical but psychological and
>> >keeping a cat indoors 24/7 is far from ideal.
>
>elaine wrote:
>> This cat definitely needs medical treatment or it could die and
>> suggesting that the owner "look beyond" veterinary advice suggests you
>> have no genuine interest in this pet's welfare.
>
>Elaine-
> Perhaps you're aware of it, but others may not be. This "bobity"
>brenchley (who also posts as sally jackson, jenn at hotmail,
>frank,esq....) showed up on alt.cats declaring his intention to "punish"
>people on that NG. He's acting maliciously, and, as far as I can tell,
That has been shown to be a complete LIE invented by Idiglum in
order to enhance his own very tarnished reputation when he lost
several arguments in rapid succession.
>doesn't even have cats, let alone actually like them.
Well neither do you. You can't have, not the way you claim to
treat them.
> Everyone, do take caution with his advice. His only purpose is to cause
>contention, and much of what he says will actively harm cats.
Bob has proved himself to be very expert with cats. He has
trounced you on a long line of arguments and you now look very
silly on alt.cats - why don't you just creep away and lick your
wounded pride and stop trolling.
>
>--
>Paul
> *the Word Wizard(TM) formerly known as konengro*
Troll of the worst kind.
SallyJ.
J Wootton
> It seems that they all call for a dietary change to canned
> food, but I'm still not clear if they have conflicting treatments otherwise.
> (i.e., if we treat for idiopathic cystitis and it's actually FUS, are we
> doing more harm than good?)
Ask your vet for the best type depending on the results of the urinalysis.
> CoCo's urine is brown; we've never seen bright red blood in the urine.
> That's part of the frustration....there's no apparent outward signs of
> discomfort or pain. Matter of fact, she seems to be more affectionate
> recently....maybe she's trying to ask us to help!
Yes
> Also, we've never seen
> any crystals in her urine; are they visible?
No
> Would I see them when she has
> an accident on the carpet?
No
> I'm sorry for not knowing the pH; it was
> probably done by the vet, but I don't recall.
>
> We've always been under the impression that a canned food diet was *bad* for
> cats;
May I suggest keeping a personal record of her PH, so that you can get a sense
which way she's swinging (PH -wise I mean).
The vet will/should be doing the same.
that's changed apparently sometime in the past 5 years ago,..they used to say
that dry was better for the teeth and less likely to gain too much weight,
amongst other reasons ...gum disease etc.. (and I'm stuck with cats who will not
eat canned of any kind) so monitoring the drinking will be ever a problem.
> that's why all 3 have been on Science Diet dry for their entire lives.
> After I read your posts yesterday, I went right out and bought about 30 cans
> of food.
Are they eating it?
> I heard one recommendation for NutroMax; are there any other
> thoughts on brands for CoCo's condition? Would the choice be different if
> it was idiopathic cystitis vs. FUS vs. FLUTD? We are segregating CoCo in
> the morning to let her eat her canned food in peace. Her buddies (an 18 lb.
> domestic longhair male and a 8 lb. Calico) are both much more aggressive and
> HUNGRY...CoCo thinks this is a special treat to eat canned food by herself.
Good
By the way, all our cats are fixed.
Good
> As far as pain relievers/analgesics, any recommendations? It takes 4 strong
> men (with long sleeves and up-to-date tetanus) to give her a pill, although
> canned food presents a feasible way to get a pill into her. We've heard
> that Valium has been successful (anecdotally); anything else? If we were to
> ask our vet for a prescription, what types of drugs would she prescribe?
I wouldn't give anything until she's stabilized, finished the antibiotic but ask
the vet. Is she going to get a followup urinalysis, after the anti-biotic? (to
make sure infection has cleared?)
> Once again, thanks to all of you. These newsgroups are responsible for
> giving CoCo a new lease on life,
So are you, for caring about her and making the required changes.
IMO
J