Most Humane Way to Clean Fish

[ba...@polisource.com]

I saw this in Google's cache of a webpage that no longer exists, and I
figured I'd preserve it by posting it here:

-----------------------------

The Most Humane Way to Clean Fish

** Those of us who fish have on frequent occasion, wonder to what
extent fish feel pain during the process of catching and cleaning them.

We certainly are concerned with the survival of those species that we
release, taking care to make sure that they swim away to "fight another

day." But what about those that make into our coolers?

What is the most humane way of dealing with the basic living creatures?

For the answer, here are the thoughts of neurobiologist Dr. Sarah Fox,
who has done extensive research into the sensory aspects of fish.

By Sarah Fox, Ph.D.

As a neurobiologist who has done some work with fish, and as a recent
observer of the fishing/cleaning process, I'm quite concerned at some
practices (not mentioned in the article) that have been time-honored
common practice, at least among sport fishermen. I have a few very well

educated thoughts, and I would appreciate your making your readers
aware of them somehow.

My concern isn't so much how to *clean* a fish as it is how and when to

*kill* it. I was horrified to watch as one fisherman pulled a live fish

out of a bucket and clumsily started scaling it. When he was done with
the scaling, he cut the head off. He explained that he needed the head
to hold, in order to do the scaling. I pointed to a scaling board (with

a tail clamp) about 3 feet from him, suggesting that he could cut the
head off first, and *then* scale the fish on the board. He didn't want
to do it that way. He said the fish didn't feel anything anyway,
because it's a cold-blooded animal.

As a neurobiologist, I've done quite a lot of work on cold-blooded
animals. It is an outright myth that they don't feel pain. They do.
I've personally recorded from nerve cells that transmit pain
information to the brain, so I know the pain information is there. An
animal would certainly have a difficult time surviving if it were
unconcerned about bodily injury, so pain pathways are quite necessary
in all animals!

My friend took a much more humane approach and cut off the head before
doing anything else. However, her cut left just enough of the muscle
behind that I could see the fish (i.e. its head) writhing for a few
minutes thereafter. I had always trusted the folk wisdom that
decapitation means instant death and loss of consciousness. Apparently
that's a myth too. This would especially be true in a cold blooded
animal, as its rate of oxygen consumption (hence, suffocation) is quite

low. The head did not die from loss of circulation or neural input. It
slowly suffocated (and almost certainly with a great deal of pain).

One thing we did that helped was to "cold-anesthetize" the fish before
killing them. This was very easy: We dumped ice in the fish bucket.
Because the fish are cold blooded, loss of body heat is not distressing

to them, at least in the same sense as it would be to a bird or mammal.

There is no thermal setpoint to fight. As the fish cools off, its
metabolism slows too, entering into what would be very similar to a
hibernation state for a mammal. When it stops moving, it's effectively
"anesthetized." In this state, it can be cleaned rather painlessly.
Ultimately, though, there is a suffocation issue for the head. When it
warms back up, it becomes metabolically active again. However, there is

no question that there would very little pain this way.

Commercially, fish are flung out of the water and allowed to suffocate
in the air. While this may seem a difficult fate, it is perhaps a more
humane one. If suffocation is inevitable, either before or after
decapitation, then why not suffocate before decapitation and not have
to endure the pain of being scaled and cut up? Some fishermen have a
practice of pulling their catch out of the water and throwing it
directly into an ice chest. This is a method of cold anesthesia, which
when combined with suffocation, is probably more humane still. Perhaps
the ultimate technique in humane fishing would be to throw the catch
into a bucket of ice water, where it can still breathe, but where it
will quickly be anesthetized. Then throw it on ice, where it will
suffocate slowly during a prolonged state of anesthesia.

It is invitable that we must kill something to live, whether it is a
cow or a chicken or a fish or a vegetable. These are all life forms
that have their own right to life, just like ours. Inevitably, we can't

all live, so one creature must inevitably be consumed by another. None
of us should have any problem with that. However, there is no reason,
as smart as we are, that we cannot be merciful in the way we gather our

food. That is the least we can do for the creatures that lose their
lives to sustain ours.

Peace,
Sarah Fox, Ph.D.

[riverman]

"Commercially, fish are flung out of the water and allowed to suffocate

in the air. While this may seem a difficult fate, it is perhaps a more
humane one. If suffocation is inevitable, either before or after
decapitation, then why not suffocate before decapitation and not have
to endure the pain of being scaled and cut up?"

I wonder how much pain a fish feels from scaling and being cut up, if
it were decapitated first. Hmph.

Besides, whoever wrote this article has evidently never heard of a
'priest'.

--riverman

[lazarus]

Hmm yeah it seems ignorant as well as silly. The fact that a muscle
continues to writhe after decapitation shows nothing about pain. It
shows that muscles continue to writhe (in mammels as well as fish)
after death - a phenomenon that's been noted for many centuries.

I do get upset, though, with some fishermen who are needlessly cruel to
fish.

L

[Wolfgang]

"lazarus" <laz...@britishlibrary.net> wrote in message
news:1132159828.0...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

If fish DON'T feel pain, it's difficult to see how anything done to them can
be construed as cruel; no one has any real reason to be upset by anything
done to them. If they DO, then ALL recreational angling is needlessly
cruel.

Problems, carefully thought through and clearly stated, generally turn out
to be fairly simple. Solutions are typically harder to find......and then
there's the whole implementation mess. :)

Wolfgang

[ba...@polisource.com]

riverman wrote:

> I wonder how much pain a fish feels from scaling and being cut up, if
> it were decapitated first. Hmph.

lazarus wrote:
> Hmm yeah it seems ignorant as well as silly. The fact that a muscle
> continues to writhe after decapitation shows nothing about pain. It
> shows that muscles continue to writhe (in mammels as well as fish)
> after death - a phenomenon that's been noted for many centuries.

I think she meant that since cold blooded animals require less oxygen,
the blood supplied by the muscle that's left attached to the head might
keep them alive to feel the pain of being decapitated, and then they
would experience suffocation, so it's better to have them die of
suffocation before decapitating them. Personally, I'd prefer to
decapitate them before the suffocated, and try not to leave much muscle
or anything behind the head. That might cause them to suffocate faster.
But I definately wouldn't scale the body with the head attached if the
fish was alive, and I'd use the "cold-anesthetize" method.

I also heard that some people hit the fish in the head to knock it out.
I wish SOME kind of humane treatment for fish was regulated. It's
possible that fish suffer about as much as a human would under the same
conditions. But I have a feeling that even if we KNEW that for sure,
people would think it's somehow not as bad because they're just fish.
To me, the main difference is that a fish's faimily probably would
mourn for them as much as a human's family would mourn for a human, but
it's the possible physical pain that bothers me.

Wolfgang wrote:

> If fish DON'T feel pain, it's difficult to see how anything done to them can
> be construed as cruel; no one has any real reason to be upset by anything
> done to them. If they DO, then ALL recreational angling is needlessly
> cruel.

I heard the roof of a fish's mouth doesn't have enough nerves to feel
pain from a hook, but I wouldn't recreational fish anyway. I used to
fish a little as a kid, and I was the complete opposite of how I am
now. I once caught a snapper and people on the peir told me to throw it
back if I won't be eating it, but I wanted to see it swim in circles in
my bucket. And I once caught an eel and people were trying to buy it
from me so they could eat it, and they kept raising their price, but I
wanted to bring it home just to show my father. I guess I'm trying to
make up for it by saving their great grandkids.

[Wayne Harrison]

<ba...@polisource.com> wrote

. I guess I'm trying to
> make up for it by saving their great grandkids.

my guess is that you are more fucked up than a soup sandwich.

wayno
>

[ba...@polisource.com]

How about an explanation? I'm talking about possibly preventing
thousands of cases of horrible pain and suffering per day, and that's
the best response you have?

[Wayne Harrison]

<ba...@polisource.com> wrote in message
news:1132194199.4...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

well, barry, i don't know what to say. that you are so concerned about
the pain of fish in times that thousands of human beings are dying, day by
day, in iraq, and other places, simply overwhelms my ability to relate to
you, on a rational level.

what do you think about the pain that fish feel when they are eaten by
other fish, or birds, or otters, or old age, for that matter? i suggest
that you grab a syringe full of demerol, and patrol the streams in your
locality, searching for fish in pain. inject those who you conclude are in
pain, and move on, comforted by your unctious efforts.

wayno
>

[rw]

I suggest that you consider not hooking them (i.e., fish) in the mouth
and playing them to exhaustion.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[ba...@polisource.com]

Wayne Harrison wrote:

> that you are so concerned about
> the pain of fish in times that thousands of human beings are dying, day by
> day, in iraq, and other places, simply overwhelms my ability to relate to
> you, on a rational level.

I think the safe answer would be for me to just say that it's easy to
prevent some of the suffering of fish by telling people the relatively
simple way to prevent, or at least reduce the suffering, or by creating
the appropriate regulations. It's worth a shot anyway. It's pretty fast
cheap to just post a message here, and I think it's worth the trouble
even if you can't compare the fish problem to the human problem. An
equivalent effort in time and money to help people in Iraq, by myself
or by the government, wouldn't do very much.

But screw the "safe" answer. One reason it bothers me so much is that I
have no reason to believe that the daily suffering of fish is any less
than the daily suffering of people.

> what do you think about the pain that fish feel when they are eaten by
> other fish, or birds, or otters, or old age, for that matter?

I think about that too, and it's pretty damn horrible (I usually think
of more furry creatures though). I heard about some animal that's
something like 90% likely to die by a predator attack, and it's not
always a quick kill from a bite to the neck. Because of that, I'm not
an animal conservationist, or whatever they're called. I'd rather not
be born if I knew I was likely to die like that. Maybe it's better to
suffocate on a boat, or die by a hunter, or maybe it's all the same,
but the less painful it is, the better.

> i suggest that you grab a syringe full of demerol, and patrol the streams in your
> locality, searching for fish in pain. inject those who you conclude are in
> pain, and move on, comforted by your unctious efforts.

I'll take the blame for not doing that if everyone else takes the blame
for not even cleaning their own catch humanely.

[rw]

ba...@polisource.com wrote:
>
> I think the safe answer would be for me to just say that it's easy to
> prevent some of the suffering of fish by telling people the relatively
> simple way to prevent, or at least reduce the suffering, or by creating
> the appropriate regulations. It's worth a shot anyway. It's pretty fast
> cheap to just post a message here, and I think it's worth the trouble
> even if you can't compare the fish problem to the human problem. An
> equivalent effort in time and money to help people in Iraq, by myself
> or by the government, wouldn't do very much.

I think every fisherman should be required to carry, and to use, a
battery-powered bass-o-matic. Works for trout, too.

[BJ Conner]

I think you got that one right, check out her website.
http://www.gendernet.org/sarah/
Probably not getting enough hits on her semiporn site so she's over
trolling in roff. I'll bet the PHD is phoney and you have never has a
bottle with enough scotch in it to make you look twice at that.

[ba...@polisource.com]

rw wrote:

> I think every fisherman should be required to carry, and to use, a
> battery-powered bass-o-matic. Works for trout, too.

I guess all fishermen know that reference, but just in case:
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/75qbassamatic.phtml

BJ Conner wrote:

> I think you got that one right, check out her website.
> http://www.gendernet.org/sarah/
> Probably not getting enough hits on her semiporn site so she's over
> trolling in roff. I'll bet the PHD is phoney and you have never has a
> bottle with enough scotch in it to make you look twice at that.

That's probably a different Sarah Fox, and I'm not either one. It
doesn't say PHD anywhere on that webpage. My website is PoliSource.com.

[rdean3...@flash.net]

Does it have badly illustrated diagrams of wonderknots? A list of
useful acronyms? Recipes, food or fly? Good deals on good tackle? OK,
how about bad deals on shitty boats? Are you at least selling dildo...,
er, swizzle sticks, and donating the proceeds to the American Red Cross?
If not, what good is some fucked-up-as-a-soup-sandwich PETAphillic
fish-smothering transsexual with a tarted-up CV? Maybe you can hook up
(pardon the pun) with some other recent contestants like "Gary" and
"Johnson" and form a self-help (or self-abuse, if you prefer) group...

SELL,
R
...and here's hoping that if the (apparent) weirdness that is this
thread, even for ROFF, is just because the thread isn't propagating
completely, it stays that way - it's much more fun this way...

[Conan The Librarian]

ba...@polisource.com wrote:

> To me, the main difference is that a fish's faimily probably would
> mourn for them as much as a human's family would mourn for a human, but
> it's the possible physical pain that bothers me.

I was pretty sure from the start that this thread was a troll, and
this clinches it.

Chuck Vance ("fish's faimily ... mourn for them"?!)

[rdean3...@flash.net]

It's all Clinton's fault. He shook hands with JFK, and JFK was
Catholic - well, so he claimed, anyway. Catholics eat fish on Friday.
The Kennedy band are...er, is...er,am...well, whatever...Catholic. The
Kennedys are involved in lots of funerals. Think of all the fish
funerals they've caused! There can be no questioning that the data on
this table - http://tinyurl.com/7ka8c - proves it.

HTH,
R

[Frank Reid]

"I saw this in Google's cache of a webpage that no longer exists, and I
figured I'd preserve it by posting it here:"

Barry, here's a lesson. In an attempt to communicate, one should "know
your audience." What this means is that what you find important is not
necessarily what we find important. You came in here with a rather
disingenuous statement (noted above), but your real reason for posting
was to preach your belief system to the "uninitiated." You started out
with a lie, lost all credibility and still are attempting to argue. Go
back to trying to find dates in teen pregnancy groups by displaying
your world shattering knowledge of hemorrhoids.
Frank Reid

[BJ Conner]

Right under Welcome
"Hi! Thanks for visiting my page. My name is Sarah Fox, Ph.D., and I am
a transsexual woman...."
Mail order PHD?
Go away, screwed up people should work of fixing themselves first then
they can work on the rest of us.

[Wayne Harrison]

<ba...@polisource.com> wrote in message
news:1132150358....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>I saw this in Google's cache of a webpage that no longer exists, and I
> figured I'd preserve it by posting it here:
>
>
> -----------------------------
>
>
> The Most Humane Way to Clean Fish

congratulations. you have now become the instigator of the most bizarre
thread ever to appear on r.o.f.f.

simply breathtaking.

[rdean3...@flash.net]

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 02:34:27 GMT, rw <rw56_to_...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

Yeah.. he should bite them (i.e., fish...hmm, on second thought, why
place limits - Barry, you go, girl!) in the ass and ride them like
National Velvet.

[rdean3...@flash.net]

On 16 Nov 2005 18:23:19 -0800, ba...@polisource.com wrote:

>
>Wayne Harrison wrote:
>> <ba...@polisource.com> wrote
>>
>> . I guess I'm trying to
>> > make up for it by saving their great grandkids.
>>
>> my guess is that you are more fucked up than a soup sandwich.
>>
>> wayno
>
>How about an explanation?

Now, then, don't you feel better? Isn't that what you're REALLY after,
Barry? You seem so confused and ill-at-ease with your life, but life's
just one of those mysteries of, well, life...I mean, how high is up?
How long is a piece of rope? What's it all about, Alfie? Maybe this
little song will help:

"'Cause then there was this boy whose
Parents made him come directly home
Right after school
And when they went to their church
They shook and lurched
All over the church floor

He couldn't quite explain it
They'd always just gone there

Mmm mmm mmm mmm
Mmm mmm mmm mmm

Mmm mmm mmm mmm
Mmm mmm mmm mmm"

SEE! SEE! Even little Pentecostal floor-floppers can't quite explain
it...

>I'm talking about possibly preventing thousands of cases of horrible
>pain and suffering per day, and that's the best response you have?

One word, Benjamin, er, Barry - "plastics...and Preparation H..." OK,
so, technically, that's 3 words and a letter...wait...maybe "Preparation
H" is considered one word, so it'd be three words rather than three
words AND a letter, but still, I think the point is obvious and it is a
more apropos response to your questions...

[rw]

Irony challenged, as usual.

[rdean3...@flash.net]

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:58:35 GMT, rw <rw56_to_...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

Naw, ya fuzzy little Double Turlette, you're more like "irony <sad
Mac>"...hit any key to continue...hit any other key to quit...

[Cyli]

On 16 Nov 2005 17:49:46 -0800, ba...@polisource.com wrote:

>To me, the main difference is that a fish's faimily probably would
>mourn for them as much as a human's family would mourn for a human, but
>it's the possible physical pain that bothers me.

Please go back to your Vegan group. You know nothing whatsoever about
fish, as indicated in the above quote.

Whoever said you're as messed up as a soup sandwich was being a bit
too kind. There's not enough to you to have ever had the sandwich
part going. Thin vegetable broth is the heartiest I can grant and I
have a hard time doing that.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: cyl...@gmail.com.invalid (strip the .invalid to email)

[ba...@polisource.com]

Frank Reid wrote:

> Barry, here's a lesson. In an attempt to communicate, one should "know
> your audience." What this means is that what you find important is not
> necessarily what we find important.

How could others not find preventing the pain of suffocation and being
scaled alive through a DAMN EASY METHOD important! You all have the
power to prevent is, but most of you don't seem to want to lift a
finger to get a bucket of ice for the fish, or like the original post
said--use a scaling board and cut off the fish's head first. It's not
like I'm confronting you with ice and telling you to use it. If you're
not sure you want to bother, at least don't hold it against me for
caring. It seems people would rather concentrate on my comments about
fish not mourning as much as people. Do they not mourn at all? Ok, some
animals do, but maybe fish don't. I don't care! My point was that I'm
bothered by the PHYSICAL pain! Do you know that fish don't experience
pain?

> your real reason for posting
> was to preach your belief system to the "uninitiated." You started out
> with a lie, lost all credibility and still are attempting to argue.

The original post might not have been worded perfectly, but it wasn't
my words and I don't know of any lie except from some posters here
about who the author is. There's useful and important information in
it.

[ba...@polisource.com]

Cyli wrote:
> On 16 Nov 2005 17:49:46 -0800, ba...@polisource.com wrote:
>
> >To me, the main difference is that a fish's faimily probably would
> >mourn for them as much as a human's family would mourn for a human, but
> >it's the possible physical pain that bothers me.
>
> Please go back to your Vegan group. You know nothing whatsoever about
> fish, as indicated in the above quote.

I didn't notice that...I meant they probably WOULDN'T mourn for them as
much, though a missing parent might mean death for for baby fish. I
won't pretend to know enough about fish to know. But whatever I meant
there, you don't have to throw out every other important detail from me
and from the woman I quoted.

[Daniel-San]

barry wrote ...

<<snip>>

> the woman I quoted.

You're generous.

Dan

[Wolfgang]

<ba...@polisource.com> wrote in message
news:1132272351....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> ...whatever I meant there...

Leave a number. As soon as somebody figures it out we'll call you.

Wolfgang

[riverman]

Some pos(t)er stomped HisHer foot and pouted:

"How could others not find preventing the pain of suffocation and being

scaled alive through a DAMN EASY METHOD important! You all have the
power to prevent is, but most of you don't seem to want to lift a
finger to get a bucket of ice for the fish, or like the original post
said--use a scaling board and cut off the fish's head first."

Well, soupsandwich, for starters most of us here are catch and release
fisherman. Secondarily, when you are standing up to your balls (its
just an expression, don't get your panties in a knot) in a river,
'lifting a finger to get a bucket of ice for the fish' is laughable.
Thirdly, I don't keep a scaling board hanging off of my fly fishing
vest. Fourthly, being the guy who CAUSED the poor fish family to have
to hold sunday services for its poor departed cousin, it seems rather
incongruous to also be the one who dons surgical gloves and does fishy
mouth to mouth and brings flowers to ease its pain.

How many fish do you think die of old age, peacefully in their sleep?

--riverman

[Wolfgang]

"riverman" <myro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1132274327.4...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> ...How many fish do you think die of old age, peacefully in their sleep?

Well, there's the vast majority of those I've pursued. And, having spent
time astream with Wayno, Jeffie, Mark, Tom, Tom, Tom, Ken, Bill, Bob, Steve,
Steve, Uncle Wally, John, George, Joel, Wayne, Kim, Mike, Frank, Frank,
Dave, Joe, and.....and.....uh.....well, sundry others, I'd say the odds are
looking pretty good. :)

Wolfgang
um.....on the other hand, there's willi....... :(

[jeffc]

I used to know an older fella (passed away now) would would literally fillet
his catch of panfish alive. i.e. *never* cut off the head. The fish went
from stringer to cleaning table and immediately into the bucket, still alive
but without their flesh. Now that was pretty disgusting.

[Frank Reid]

Barry,
As I mentioned, know your audience. One, 99% of the folks here are
catch and release 99% of the time. You figure how many we keep. Two,
trout don't have scales worth worrying about so we don't scale them.
Three, old item that trout fishermen who do keep their catch use is
called a priest. Small club used to stun and kill the fish
immediately. Four, we don't carry two differing bags of ice (one with
and one without water) out on a stream as we are often miles from any
vehicle.
So, your ranting, raving only serves to make you look more foolish than
you already are. Joined Mensa when I was 16. Joined Tabla too. Gave
it all up when I found that the vast majority of the folks didn't have
the sense God gave a goose. The one's with sense left too. So, shut
up, learn and move on.
Cheers
Frank Reid

[ba...@polisource.com]

riverman wrote:

> Well, soupsandwich, for starters most of us here are catch and release
> fisherman. Secondarily, when you are standing up to your balls (its
> just an expression, don't get your panties in a knot) in a river,
> 'lifting a finger to get a bucket of ice for the fish' is laughable.
> Thirdly, I don't keep a scaling board hanging off of my fly fishing
> vest. Fourthly, being the guy who CAUSED the poor fish family to have
> to hold sunday services for its poor departed cousin, it seems rather
> incongruous to also be the one who dons surgical gloves and does fishy
> mouth to mouth and brings flowers to ease its pain.

All I know about fly fishing is that you need little hairy things
called flies. I didn't have catch and release fisherman or wading in
mind.

> How many fish do you think die of old age, peacefully in their sleep?

I don't know. I'm just trying to make things easier for the ones on the
boat with the fisherman who caught them.

Do they make electrocution lures that electrocute only the fish that's
caught? That would be a little unsportsmanlike, but that wouldn't
bother me so much for food fishing if it worked well. Or some kid of
electrocution spear.

[ba...@polisource.com]

Frank Reid wrote:
> Barry,

> Small club used to stun and kill the fish
> immediately.

I referred to that early on. About 10 years ago, I asked on Compuserver
how I can find fish that were caught by someone who clubbed them as
opposed to just letting them suffocate, but nobody responded. I learned
about those clubs from a fishing show. The guy said that it actually
bothers some people to club the fish. I thought it was rare until now.

[Wolfgang]

<ba...@polisource.com> wrote in message
news:1132276345....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> All I know about fly fishing is that you need little hairy things
> called flies.

It isn't so much a matter of need as it is the fact that if you're out
there, you get 'em. :(

> I didn't have catch and release fisherman or wading in
> mind.

Or much of anything else, for that matter.

>> How many fish do you think die of old age, peacefully in their sleep?
>
> I don't know. I'm just trying to make things easier for the ones on the
> boat with the fisherman who caught them.

Maybe you could make formal introductions. That's always helped a lot in
social encounters in my experience.

> Do they make electrocution lures that electrocute only the fish that's
> caught? That would be a little unsportsmanlike, but that wouldn't
> bother me so much for food fishing if it worked well. Or some kid of
> electrocution spear.

A firecracker tucked well into the mouth works pretty well......and it's
much simpler (and cheaper) than fancy electrical devices.....not to mention
the bother of batteries or the very real risks associated with running a 440
line from shore. Then too, a .44 to the back of the head (.357 will do in a
pinch.....well, for panfish, anyway) rarely fails to do the job quickly and
with a minimum of fuss. Um.....DO remember to take along a bilge pump!

On the other hand, why not simply take the path of least resistance? If the
metaphysical angst of all these traumatized fish (and let us not forget all
of those other finny, feathery, and furry little beasties with......um,
shall we say 'proscribed lives'?) is just too too much for you to bear, why
then you can make it all go away in a flash.....so to speak. Just hold that
.44 real steady......turn it around.......and squeeze. Don't Jerk!
Squeeeeeeze. Nice and easy. Lights out. End of the world. Tie score all
the way around. :)

Wolfgang
to sleep......perchance to dream.....

[riverman]

You know, I've been convinced of the error of my ways.

Anyone know where I can get Lidocaine-impregnated hooks? I intend to
dip them in Betadine before I cast them, just to help with the healing
process. And I will only tie flies from materials harvested from
free-range animals, who died gently in their sleep. And I'll only use
floatant and other chemical materials from companies that refuse to do
animal testing. The tippet and leader material must be biodegradable,
and all labor for my gear, clothing and materials will be from
countries that do not have sweatshops, and have honored the UN
Declaration of Human Rights. I'll stop swatting mosquitoes, but use
Skin-so-soft instead. I'll ensure the gas in my car that I use to get
to the stream was from US fuel reserves, the car is a Hybrid that gets
at least 30 mpg, but I only use it for journeys in excess of 10 miles
(errr, I mean 16 kilometers) when I can't ride my bike, take public
transport or walk, and I will only drink american beer.

--riverman
Well, I might slip up on the beer thing.

[ba...@polisource.com]

Wolfgang wrote:
> <ba...@polisource.com> wrote in message
> news:1132276345....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> > I didn't have catch and release fisherman or wading in

> > mind.
>
> Or much of anything else, for that matter.

I doubt that ANYONE here believes that. Certainly nobody who matters.

> Maybe you could make formal introductions. That's always helped a lot in
> social encounters in my experience.

Maybe you should re-read the replies in this thread. There's nothing
remotely formal about it. If my posts don't apply to the fisherman
here, they're still fishing related. Maybe people should pass on the
information instead of calling me sandwich names.

As for riverman's comments below (if you're reading this by date),
you'd think I was asking people to actually go out of their way for
something. Just put some freaking ice in the water and you could
prevent the pain of suffocation, or club the fish. That's all I'm
saying. Actually, I wasn't even saying anyone should do that until I
was attacked. I was just mentioning that someone said it works.

[Tim J.]

Frank Reid wrote:
> Joined Mensa when I was 16. Joined Tabla too.
> Gave it all up when I found that the vast majority of the folks
> didn't have the sense God gave a goose.

How were the rest of 'em as far as staying upright? I mean, maybe yer
brains make you fellers top-heavy. ;-)
--
TL,
Tim
---------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj/

[Frank Reid]

Okay, these were the guys that would be your friend because you had a
hydroponics set-up in your attic. The hydroponics stuff, i.e. the
technical side, was really bitchin.
Hmm, we had one guy that was a tackle on the football team. If we ever
mentioned to anyone that in reality he was truely smart, he'd give you
an atomic wedgie.
Frank Reid

[Dave LaCourse]

On 17 Nov 2005 16:05:51 -0800, ba...@polisource.com wrote:

>though a missing parent might mean death for for baby fish.

You have to either be a moron or a troll.

The "parents" of baby fish will EAT them, given the chance. And if
the baby fish grow bigger and stronger they some day may eat their
"parents". It is one helluva cruel world underneath that water.

wayno said it best: Soup Sandwich

Dave (who has yet to devour one of his offspring)

[Daniel-San]

barry wrote...

> All I know about fly fishing is that you need little hairy things
> called flies. I didn't have catch and release fisherman or wading in
> mind.
>
>

Hairy things? WTF? What's wrong with being a little more hairy than the next
guy? Jeez. Now I'm gonna be used to catch a fish....

Berry, you're a nutjob. Coming close to world-class level. Maybe you mean
well. Hell, I dunno. If you want to have some real fun, find a hunting NG
and start telling everyone how Bambi hates the arrow that suddenly got
shoved where the sun don't shine.

As an aside -- it's nuts like yourself, Berry (I'll call you 'Boysen' -- one
of my faves) that give the far right political wing all the leverage they
need.

"Damned liberals want to outlaw fishing. That ain't right!"
"Better vote for GOPCO's nominee. They'll let us fish in peace And hunt,
too. Nevermind the insidious intrusion of religion into our private lives."

Learn to pick your battles. And, while I'm a layman, I'd really suggest that
you get some therapy.

Dan
Yes, the spelling was intentional.

[Cyli]

On 17 Nov 2005 16:05:51 -0800, ba...@polisource.com wrote:

(Snipped)

> you don't have to throw out every other important detail from me
>and from the woman I quoted.

There were no important details, Sally / Barry. Take my word for it.

[ba...@polisource.com]

Cyli wrote:

> There were no important details, Sally / Barry. Take my word for it.

Sorry, you'll actually have to point out something I said and argue
against it. Don't you think it's good to know that ice could
anesthetize fish? Do you think that fish suffer when they're dying
after being caught?

[Cyli]

On 17 Nov 2005 18:23:36 -0800, ba...@polisource.com wrote:

>Just put some freaking ice in the water and you could
>prevent the pain of suffocation, or club the fish. That's all I'm
>saying. Actually, I wasn't even saying anyone should do that until I
>was attacked. I was just mentioning that someone said it works.

Sally / Barry, here in Minnesota we have a fly fishing season that's
open January through about the first of April in the few trout streams
that don't ice _completely_ over.

THE FISH COME OUT OF WATER THAT"S GOT ICE IN IT, DOLT. Since it's a
catch and release season, they go right back in the water. And swim
happily away. You can't kill a trout by dumping it in ice water. You
can do a mercy kill on the fish from your aquarium that way, as
they're mostly tropicals, but not sturdy, hardy northern fish.

The reason you're getting answers that lack respect is that you
deserve them. You're neither respectable in your views of fish and
fishing nor respectful of others. Go now.

[Cyli]

On 17 Nov 2005 18:11:51 -0800, "riverman" <myro...@yahoo.com> wrote:

(Snipped)

>I'll ensure the gas in my car that I use to get
>to the stream was from US fuel reserves

Isn't it going to cost you extra to have that imported to your
locality? Whichever foreign one you happen to be in at any given
moment?

[ba...@polisource.com]

Daniel-San wrote:
> barry wrote...
>
> > All I know about fly fishing is that you need little hairy things
> > called flies. I didn't have catch and release fisherman or wading in
> > mind.
> >
> >
>
> Hairy things? WTF? What's wrong with being a little more hairy than the next
> guy? Jeez. Now I'm gonna be used to catch a fish....
>

> Berry, you're a nutjob....And, while I'm a layman, I'd really suggest that
> you get some therapy.

What are you talking about? I think I've seen "flies" sold for fishing,
and I thought they were hairy. Yeah, like these:
http://www.sea-ex.com/simkan/gallery.htm

[ba...@polisource.com]

Cyli wrote:

> THE FISH COME OUT OF WATER THAT"S GOT ICE IN IT, DOLT. Since it's a
> catch and release season, they go right back in the water. And swim
> happily away. You can't kill a trout by dumping it in ice water. You
> can do a mercy kill on the fish from your aquarium that way, as
> they're mostly tropicals, but not sturdy, hardy northern fish.

> The reason you're getting answers that lack respect is that you
> deserve them. You're neither respectable in your views of fish and
> fishing nor respectful of others. Go now.

Again, I need an example of my disrespect. Remember to consider what
I'm replying to.

Catch and release isn't what I had in mind, so maybe this doesn't
apply. For other fishing, the ice is meant to anesthetize the fish, as
it says in the original post. If a fish won't stay in the icy container
you put it in, then it won't work, though I'm thinking you can cover it
or use a deep container. If it doesn't work, that doesn't make me a
dolt. It make me someone who wants to prevent thousands of cases of
suffering per day, and the lack of support here, and lack of complaints
about people like you makes this newsgroup suck.

[ba...@polisource.com]

Dave LaCourse wrote:
> On 17 Nov 2005 16:05:51 -0800, ba...@polisource.com wrote:
>
> >though a missing parent might mean death for for baby fish.
>
> You have to either be a moron or a troll.
>
> The "parents" of baby fish will EAT them, given the chance. And if
> the baby fish grow bigger and stronger they some day may eat their
> "parents". It is one helluva cruel world underneath that water.

It's a helluva big world underneath that water too, and I doubt what
you say is true for all fish, but after the sentence you quoted I said
I don't really know enough about fish to know. I'm a moron or troll for
that?

[riverman]

Not knowing and not caring are different things. Do you care if the
grass hurts when you walk on it? Do you care if a housefly suffers
needlessly when its plastered up against the sunny window in your
kitchen? Do you care how the WORM feels when its being dangled in front
of the fish?

Pain and suffering are a reality of life for <every single species of
animal life on the planet>. Humans may be unique in their ability to
reduce pain for humankind; that makes our particular trait rather
unnatural. To grant this to pets and other animals we have made a
personal bond to is touching, but a bit specie-centric. To extend this
to fish you are catching with the intent to kill and eat would be way
outside the rules of nature, it seems to me. They wouldn't do it for
us.

--riverman

[riverman]

On 17 Nov 2005 18:11:51 -0800, "riverman" <myronb...@yahoo.com> wrote:

(Snipped)

>I'll ensure the gas in my car that I use to get
>to the stream was from US fuel reserves

>Isn't it going to cost you extra to have that imported to your
>locality? Whichever foreign one you happen to be in at any given
>moment?

Not really. In the World According To Bush, its ALL ours. :-)

--riverman

[riverman]

"It make me someone who wants to prevent thousands of cases of

suffering per day..."

Thousands?? I bet the number is closer to the tens of millions, if you
consider all those deep see trawlers. Hmmm, where are they going to get
all that ice...

"...and the lack of support here, and lack of complaints

about people like you makes this newsgroup suck."

Soupsandwich, I suggest you don't let the swinging door hit you on the
ass on the way out. There may be a bug on it that would suffer
needlessly.

--riverman

[Cyli]

On 17 Nov 2005 21:51:29 -0800, ba...@polisource.com wrote:

>Cyli wrote:
>
>> There were no important details, Sally / Barry. Take my word for it.
>
>Sorry, you'll actually have to point out something I said and argue
>against it.

Not if I regard what you said as unworthy of discussion and you as an
unworthy person to discuss things.

[riverman]

So whats the game? It didn't sell over at talk.politics.animal, so you
posted it here to see if you could get a rise?

http://tinyurl.com/cp2zw

--riverman

[Thomas Littleton]

<ba...@polisource.com> wrote in message

> Sorry, you'll actually have to point out something I said and argue
> against it. Don't you think it's good to know that ice could
> anesthetize fish? Do you think that fish suffer when they're dying
> after being caught?
>

dude, you've spent the better part of a day making it perfectly clear that
you have no clue what we do, and how. Perhaps an ice bucket to anesthetize
you before you babble more might be an idea....no, wait,
this thread is too much fun, and the weekend reading might be priceless!<g>
Tom

[ba...@polisource.com]

riverman wrote:
> So whats the game? It didn't sell over at talk.politics.animal, so you
> posted it here to see if you could get a rise?

I'm not looking for a rise. I'm just posting it in appropriate
newsgroups. I think there might be one more, but cross-posting is
frowned upon, and I've been rethinking the ideas about what's least
painful. Maybe I'd ice the fish, then cut of it's head while it's
alive, but I don't think that's what Sarah Fox suggested (I wish Google
Groups would let me review the thread as I'm replying). Too bad there's
no official word on what's best.

And yes, I give insects at least a little thought too. If I squish
them, I squish them extra hard, and I still wonder if I'm doing the
right thing. I wish that was seen as too cruel rather than too
bug-loving. I won't worry about plants until I hear that they might
suffer.

[Wolfgang]

<ba...@polisource.com> wrote in message
news:1132280616....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Wolfgang wrote:
>> <ba...@polisource.com> wrote in message
>> news:1132276345....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>> > I didn't have catch and release fisherman or wading in
>> > mind.
>>
>> Or much of anything else, for that matter.
>
> I doubt that ANYONE here believes that. Certainly nobody who matters.

Well, that raises an interesting question. Who among us really does matter?
I mean, I'm perfectly willing to concede your point......nobody who believes
what I say matters. But then we find ourselves in the rather peculiar
position of having to admit that there are particular people who are worth
less than ANY fish, ALL of which we KNOW matter, else why would we be
concerned about easing their path into that good night, right? But wait!
Common sense dictates that agreeing with me on one minor issue (after all,
the nature, volume, condition, or psig of what resides between your ears is
not likely to be regarded as an issue of great import by any thinking
person) can hardly be the only test by which an individual's worth can be
determined. There must be someone....somewhere....who isn't even aware of
what I think about all of this. So, what test shall we apply in these
cases? I sure wish you would help me out here.

>> Maybe you could make formal introductions. That's always helped a lot in
>> social encounters in my experience.
>
> Maybe you should re-read the replies in this thread. There's nothing
> remotely formal about it.

Exactly! That's my point! In all of these casual encounters, nobody pays
much attention to the time honored niceties of the ettiquette of killing
precisely because they ARE casual. It's just another example of the
pervasive erosion of civility that follows inevitably from the blithe
acceptance of an increasingly permissive society. I swear to you that if
you would simply bend your considerable intellect and energies to the formal
introduction of fishermen (and women, let us not forget) to their partners
in this dance of death (the fish, in case you've lost track) you would see
an immediate difference. Implausible it may seem, but I wouldn't be a bit
surprised if, once they got to know one another as individuals, they didn't
soon cease these senseless hostilities and, recognizing one another's worth,
decided to have crumpets together instead.

> If my posts don't apply to the fisherman
> here,

We'll ask him......as soon as he arrives. You see, he isn't actually here
right now. As a matter of fact, we haven't heard much from him at all
lately. We're starting to get a little worried. :(

> they're still fishing related.

Who could doubt it? Has anyone said they are not? If so, name the bounder
and I will personally see to it that he is severely chastized and/or
rebuked.

> Maybe people should pass on the
> information instead of calling me sandwich names.

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but I think just about everyone
here has already passed on the information. That's sort of what they've
been trying to tell you. Oh, and a rube is not a sandwich......you're
probably confusing it with a Reuben.

> As for riverman's comments below (if you're reading this by date),

I'm actually reading this by candlelight, but I don't think that should make
a great deal of difference. Please, do go on.

> you'd think I was asking people to actually go out of their way for
> something. Just put some freaking ice in the water and you could
> prevent the pain of suffocation, or club the fish.

Actually, you ARE asking people to go out of their way. Streamside ice
machines may be a common feature where you live, but here in the upper Great
Lakes region they just haven't caught on.......yet. As things stand (by
date) a fisherman (or woman) here would have to walk all the way out of the
stream, climb up an often slippery bank (the stairs are typically in a
terrible state of repair due to budget cuts), and stumble around in the
woods for miles and hours searching for the nearest ice. Well, actually,
it's not all that bad in the winter......but in July or August scaling the
fish would be moot by the time a sufficent quantity of ice could be found.
And THEN there's still the problem of carrying sufficient loose change to
plug into the machine.....IF it's even working!

> That's all I'm saying.

It's enough.....believe me. Um......oh yeah, I guess that puts us right
back where we started, huh?

> Actually, I wasn't even saying anyone should do that until I
> was attacked.

Attacked? Oh, dear Sparky, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. :)

> I was just mentioning that someone said it works.

Oh.....well.....if that's all......

Wolfgang

[Wolfgang]

<ba...@polisource.com> wrote in message
news:1132310347.9...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> ...I won't worry about plants until I hear that they might
> suffer.

I can hear broccoli scream when I drop it in boiling water. This is why I
always put it in ice cold water and then heat it very slowly over a low
flame. It takes an hour or so for it to come to a boil. The broccoli never
knows what hits it. :)

Baby lima beans cry when I eat their parents. :(

Wolfgang

[Wolfgang]

"Dave LaCourse" <dplac...@pirateaol.com> wrote in message
news:gonqn1502vf0ft55a...@4ax.com...

> Dave (who has yet to devour one of his offspring)

Neptune......being ironic. :)

Wolfgang
goya knew.

[rw]

Never argue with a fool. Others might not be able to tell the difference.

--
Cut "to the chase" for my email address.

[Wolfgang]

"rw" <rw56_to_...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Vkjff.790$rM2...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

> Never argue with a fool. Others might not be able to tell the difference.

Hee, hee, hee.

Wolfgang
wondering what descriptive label one might profitably apply to one who WILL
NOT learn. :)

[Jeff Miller]

jeffc wrote:

> ... The fish went
> from stringer to cleaning table and immediately into the bucket, still alive
> but without their flesh.
>
>

jeez...you haven't been married long enough to be writing stuff like
that. wait a few more years and you'll be in the "still alive but
without their soul" stage.

jeff (who'd be amazed to see a fleshless fish swimmin in a bucket...but
who has seen numerous mindless humans who shoulda been "skinned".)

[Wolfgang]

"Jeff Miller" <jl...@mindspring.com.valid> wrote in message
news:Fwjff.25141$0l5.14998@dukeread06...

I once saw a gutless fish swimming.....well, finning and holding it's
position in a stream.

Wolfgang
who will forego commenting on the too too obvious human parallels. :)

[asadi]

<ba...@polisource.com> wrote in message
news:1132294231.2...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Thousands of cases of suffering....? This group sucks - for you , because
this is the wrong group to talk about killing fish.

john

[Stan Gula]

jeffc wrote:
> ... The fish went
> from stringer to cleaning table and immediately into the bucket, still
alive
> but without their flesh.

Jeff Miller wrote:
> jeez...you haven't been married long enough to be writing stuff like
> that. wait a few more years and you'll be in the "still alive but
> without their soul" stage.

Cold, cold, cold. Good thing my coffee cooled down because that would have
been a painful splork.

Still wondering why people are messing with this troll.

--
Stan Gula
http://gula.org/roffswaps
(hairy little flies, and some big ones too, but no soup sandwiches for you!)

[Frank Reid]

I think its because either he is either the most clueless person we've
ever encountered on this newsgroup or we are being toyed with by
greatness. If its the former, its kinda like poking an anthill with a
stick (black ants, not red). If its the latter, I want to be his
agent.
Frank Reid

[Conan The Librarian]

ba...@polisource.com wrote:

> I'm not looking for a rise. I'm just posting it in appropriate
> newsgroups. I think there might be one more, but cross-posting is
> frowned upon, and I've been rethinking the ideas about what's least
> painful.

Trust me, there are plenty of other groups that would just love to
read your original troll.

Well, lookee here, I found a thread that might interest you. Too
bad it's old: http://makeashorterlink.com/?U22B42E2C

> Maybe I'd ice the fish, then cut of it's head while it's
> alive, but I don't think that's what Sarah Fox suggested (I wish Google
> Groups would let me review the thread as I'm replying). Too bad there's
> no official word on what's best.

"Officials" have better things to do than sit around and wonder if
baby fishes are traumatized when mama and papa fish are taken away, or
if a fish would prefer to be thrown in a bucket of ice water.

A question for you: Did you know that big fish eat little fish?

> And yes, I give insects at least a little thought too. If I squish
> them, I squish them extra hard, and I still wonder if I'm doing the
> right thing. I wish that was seen as too cruel rather than too
> bug-loving. I won't worry about plants until I hear that they might
> suffer.

I always put my tomatoes in an ice water bath as soon as I pull them
from the vine. You just can't be too careful these days.

Chuck Vance (supporting a kinder, gentler salad)

[rdean3...@flash.net]

On 17 Nov 2005 22:10:31 -0800, ba...@polisource.com wrote:

>Again, I need an example of my disrespect.

Well, first, not so much as a "by your leave, your most serene Grace,"
and then, SOMEONE forgot to curtsy...and I don't mean one of those rude
little hardly noticeable knee-flex moves, I mean a real honest-to-God,
presented-to-the-Queen debutante-shaming curtsy....

[Wolfgang]

"Stan Gula" <sg...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:hxkff.15618$Sb.2306@trndny06...

> ...Still wondering why people are messing with this troll.

Mallory.....the mountain.....all that. :)

Wolfgang

[Dave LaCourse]

On 17 Nov 2005 22:14:05 -0800, ba...@polisource.com wrote:

>and I doubt what
>you say is true for all fish

Ah, yes. I can see it now. Mama Trout watching her eggs turn into
iddy biddy fishes and she says to Dada Trout. "Oh, look. She has
your ears and my eyes and nose. We'll name her Henrietta after you
and me."

Once the eggs are hatched, the "parents" could shif a git what happens
to them, and when a baby trout (baby?) gets to be a little bigger, say
two inches, Mama or Dada would eat it in a NY second. *Now* we're
talking about pain.

[rdean3...@flash.net]

On 18 Nov 2005 05:26:09 -0800, "Frank Reid" <reid_f...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Um, assuming it to be only one or the other, what difference does it
make as far as all the conversation/arguing with and/or "explaining
things" to good ol' Barry the compassionate? "Barry" got what "he"
wanted the instant anything was taken (even the least bit)
seriously...and speaking of clueless, let's look back, shall we?

<wiggly picture-wiggly picture-wiggly picture>

"I found this on the web, but it's not there anymore for anyone to check
or anything. I don't really fish...well, except a couple times and
there was this high-dollar eel...anyway, so I thought I'd preserve this
venerable scre...er, treatise somehow, and so, TA-DA!!! HERE I IS!!!"
(picture a transsexual with an ice chest full of fish popping out of a
cake if it'll help - it probably won't...)

And thus, spaketh the Lord, the battle was joined -
Extra Consonants 12,945:1-3
"And amongeth them were brave ROFFian soldiers who stepped uppeth to
engageth, correct and otherwiseth educateth the interloper..."

Might I suggest yet a third possibility? Have you considered clueless
versus clueless? Not naming any names, mind you, merely suggesting the
concept for your consideration....

HTH (no, really),
R

[Tom Nakashima]

"Dave LaCourse" <dplac...@pirateaol.com> wrote in message

news:bmnrn1hq2m37s2kaf...@4ax.com...

>
> Ah, yes. I can see it now. Mama Trout watching her eggs turn into
> iddy biddy fishes and she says to Dada Trout. "Oh, look. She has
> your ears and my eyes and nose. We'll name her Henrietta after you
> and me."
>

Tobiko!
http://www.origamirestaurant.com/sushi/images/sushi_seasoned_tobiko.jpg
guys are making me hungry now.
-tom

[Daniel-San]

barry wrote ...
> Daniel-San wrote:
>> barry wrote...
>>
>> > All I know about fly fishing is that you need little hairy things
>> > called flies. I didn't have catch and release fisherman or wading in
>> > mind.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Hairy things? WTF? What's wrong with being a little more hairy than the
>> next
>> guy? Jeez. Now I'm gonna be used to catch a fish....
>>
>> Berry, you're a nutjob....And, while I'm a layman, I'd really suggest
>> that
>> you get some therapy.
>
> What are you talking about? I think I've seen "flies" sold for fishing,
> and I thought they were hairy. Yeah, like these:
> http://www.sea-ex.com/simkan/gallery.htm

Boysen,

That's called sarcasm. Admittedly a rather weak version thereof, but sarcasm
nonetheless.

As far as trolls go, I have to give you some credit. Even the legendary
Vandetroll on RB usually only replies once or twice to his diatribes. Then
he calls everyone a liar and loses interest. You, OTOH, have some staying
power. You've replied to almost everyone. Impressive.

You either feign ignorance in order to promulgate this 'ice is nicer' line,
or you truly are ignorant. Either way, you're a nutjob. Go find a PETA
meeting and talk about fish families. Someone there will surely give you a
shoulder to cry on. Maybe more. Just be careful -- given the author of your
OP, you never know what you'll find.

Dan
"I know all I need to know about the Crying Game.... "

[John Hightower]

"riverman" <myro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1132298916.5...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> "It make me someone who wants to prevent thousands of cases of
> suffering per day..."
>
> Thousands?? I bet the number is closer to the tens of millions, if you
> consider all those deep see trawlers. Hmmm, where are they going to get
> all that ice...
>

I know! I know! FEMA

jh

[asadi]

"Wolfgang" <wolf...@mcw.edu> wrote in message
news:3u5rj9F...@individual.net...

I tried to hard boil an egg in the microwave. When it blew, grown chickens
were weeping....

john

[Conan The Librarian]

asadi wrote:

> I tried to hard boil an egg in the microwave. When it blew, grown chickens
> were weeping....

Babykiller!

Chuck Vance

[Frank Reid]

Well Tom, seems like you're just trying to stir the controversy pot.
There are some that enjoy tobiko and others, namely most of the catch
and release fishermen here in this group that thinks tobiko is
unethical and would rather just head out in the stream and go fish.
Its a Roe V. Wade kinda thing.

Frank Reid
(who's been waiting years for this opportunity)

[Tom Nakashima]

"Frank Reid" <reid_f...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132337437....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Frank, I'm sending Senator D. Feinstein (D) to awake you in your deepest
sleep to discuss this matter on Roe vs. Wade. Make sure you have a good
fresh catch on hand, cause she loves raw fish.

btw, the spell check for tobiko is tobacco.
-tom

[Wayne Knight]

Frank Reid wrote:

> Its a Roe V. Wade kinda thing.

What does evacuating New Orleans have to do with this?

[Tom Nakashima]

"Wayne Knight" <wrkn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1132347357....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

>
> Frank Reid wrote:
>
>> Its a Roe V. Wade kinda thing.
>
> What does evacuating New Orleans have to do with this?
>

It was Miss V. Roe who had to wade out to the rescue team when her house was
flooded in New Orleans.
-tom

[ba...@polisource.com]

I must thank you all for making my argument that the industry can't
effectively self-regulate or even be trusted to provide guidelines for
the least painful method of handling fish. I'll be using this in the
future.

[Dave LaCourse]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:01:08 -0800, "Tom Nakashima"
<t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:

>Tobiko!
>http://www.origamirestaurant.com/sushi/images/sushi_seasoned_tobiko.jpg
> guys are making me hungry now.

While stationed 15 miles west of Yokohama in the 50s, I ate sushi
before it became a popular U.S. dish, and yes, that included the eggs.
But my favorite Japanese food was pizza from the Marko Polo Restaurant
in Chinatown, Yokohama, with its "mystery" meat on top. It was
supposed to be pepperoni, but it only *resembled* pepperoni. It was
the only pizza joint in Yokohama.

[Stan Gula]

ba...@polisource.com wrote:
<snipped for the sake of the fish children>

Wowee, wow, this is mind boggling. I'm thinking blinding headaches are
involved somehow.

[rw]

Probably pickled lamprey.

[opie]

Tens Of Millions? Hell the fgure has got to be in the neighborhood of
hundreds of billions of suffering, pain filled fishes!

I have to side with Soupy on this one. I think he/she/it has a
psychotically psychic connection to the fishies. Think about it, all of
those fishes with their skulls being bashed-in by all of those Catholic
church leaders. And then, suppose just one of those fishies escapes the
brutal beating only to be devoured bit by bit by it's own mother?! Oh the
HUMIDIY of it all!

> "...and the lack of support here, and lack of complaints

> about people like you makes this newsgroup suck."
>

> Soupsandwich, I suggest you don't let the swinging door hit you on the
> ass on the way out. There may be a bug on it that would suffer
> needlessly.

Once again, I have to agree with Soupy. I am giving up this dastardly NG
and flyfishing FOREVER! I have already bsted up all of my flyrods and I am
presently in the process of untying all of my flyz and will release all of
the hooks back to the wilds from which they came, first thing in the morn,
immediately after my usual breakfast of raw eggs, steak and baby kittens.

Love,

Opie

> --riverman
>

[Wolfgang]

"opie" <beau...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:JNuff.1206$6y4...@bignews3.bellsouth.net...

Hm......

Haste is ever the sworn enemy of reason. About those flies........

Raised in captivity.....doubtless with all the love and affection a
dedicated environmentalist (not to mention a proud surrogate parent) could
possibly lavish on them......they are simply not equipped, either by nature
or by nurture, to deal with a sudden release (in toto or piecemeal) into
the wild. I won't try to horrify you or burden you with guilt with grizzly
descriptions of the bloody and painful fate awaiting them at the murderous
claws and jaws of their enemies (natural or otherwise) just the other side
of the picket fence. Fortunately, there is a humane alternative. The Save
A Fly foundation is ever ready (despite the swindling funds that always
follow on the heels of a languishing economy and governmental cutbacks) to
provide them with a good home.

You know the address.

Wolfgang

[Wolfgang]

"Wolfgang" <wolf...@mcw.edu> wrote in message

news:3u7d6nF...@individual.net...
>
> ...despite the [deleted] funds that always...

Oops!.......heh heh....."D"windling......... :)

Wolfgang
for the foundation.

[riverman]

So what are you; Anti-egg or Pro-chicken??

--riverman
(and which came first?)

[Mike Connor]

The fish are already pretty clean, all that biological detergent works
wonders.

TL
MC

[Cyli]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:39:35 -0600, rdean3...@flash.net wrote:

(snipped)

>(picture a transsexual with an ice chest full of fish popping out of a
>cake if it'll help - it probably won't...)

Very evocative.

That brought up some awful images in my mind. Him / her popping out
of a cake, icy fish popping out of his / her chest. Thank all the
gods and goddesses that my mind went to grey right there.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: cyl...@gmail.com.invalid (strip the .invalid to email)

[Thomas Littleton]

<ba...@polisource.com> wrote in message
news:1132354264.9...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Industry??

Tom

[Dave LaCourse]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 23:52:54 GMT, rw <rw56_to_...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

One could hope. We thought it was dog sausage.

[ba...@polisource.com]

Some "industry" organizations, regulatory agencies, etc., like the
North Pacific Fishery Management Council, might offer suggestions on
humane handling of fish even for non-commercial fisherman. But now I'd
put more value on suggestions from organizations that are more
animal-welfare oriented in terms of pain and not just population
control and management issues. I'd avoid any organization with close
ties to sport or non-research related commercial fisherman. The Humane
Society is probably the place to get such suggestions. That's the
beginning.

Ewww...look where I'm posting again :(

[riverman]

So let me see if I get this right.

You post a bunch of insane crap on a fishing newsgroup, get a
less-than-warm response, and then decide that because a bunch of C&R
fishermen who think its idiotic to stand waist deep in icy water with a
cooler around their neck to anaesthetize some fish they plan on
releasing anyway give you a boatload of well deserved crap, that
somehow they represent the 'industry' and as such, you'd rather value
the opinions of people who you believe will already be more aligned
with your point of view in the first place.

Got it. Good luck with your political website, and have a nice life.

--riverman

Oh, and watch the door on the way out.

[Frank Reid]

Not one whit of a beautiful summation snipped. One comment, you need two
coolers of ice (one with water, one without) to do what Barry's asking.
--
Frank Reid
Reverse email to reply

[ba...@polisource.com]

riverman wrote:
> So let me see if I get this right.
>
> You post a bunch of insane crap on a fishing newsgroup, get a
> less-than-warm response

Be specific about the "insane crap" in my posts. "Less-than-warm" isn't
an appropriate description of the responses.

> and then decide that because a bunch of C&R
> fishermen who think its idiotic to stand waist deep in icy water with a
> cooler around their neck to anaesthetize some fish they plan on
> releasing anyway give you a boatload of well deserved crap

When that was mentioned on two occasions, I agreed that the ice
technique wouldn't be practical for them. I posted to a fly fishing
newsgroup, not a catch and release newsgroup, but more importantly, I
posted fishing-related information that might, in some cases, prevent
an incredible amount of suffering and be practical. I did have a
preconceived notion of people who would fish for sport, but I didn't
speak to any of you with that notion in mind, until I learned the way
you are from personal experience, and I'm still showing restraint.

> somehow they represent the 'industry' and as such, you'd rather value
> the opinions of people who you believe will already be more aligned
> with your point of view in the first place.

You all represent non-commercial fisherman in an unofficial way, which
is who this information applies in general, though it doesn't apply to
catch and release.

I'm absolutely not looking for people who are aligned with my point of
view. At this point, I'm looking for civilized experts, by any sane
standard (no name calling, no unreasoned insults, etc.) in animal
welfare to give me their opinion. If I thought I had enough information
to form a solid opinion, I wouldn't seek more. I think heard enough to
justify a post here though.

[ba...@polisource.com]

Frank Reid wrote:
One comment, you need two
> coolers of ice (one with water, one without) to do what Barry's asking.

In my original post, I quote Sarah Fox saying:

"One thing we did that helped was to "cold-anesthetize" the fish before

killing them. This was very easy: We dumped ice in the fish bucket.
Because the fish are cold blooded, loss of body heat is not distressing

to them, at least in the same sense as it would be to a bird or
mammal."

Sounds like one bucket is all you need. But I never really "asked"
anything in the beginning of this thread. Eventually, I said something
like "just put some freaking ice in the bucket" when someone who didn't
get it was being sarcastic.

[rw]

ba...@polisource.com wrote:
> riverman wrote:
>
>>So let me see if I get this right.
>>
>>You post a bunch of insane crap on a fishing newsgroup, get a
>>less-than-warm response
>
>
> Be specific about the "insane crap" in my posts. "Less-than-warm" isn't
> an appropriate description of the responses.

The figure of speech Myron used is called litotes: Deliberate
understatement, especially when expressing a thought by denying its
opposite. It's a common and witty manner of expressing contempt,
completely within the bounds of polite discourse. Now the "insane crap"
is something else. :-)

Like at least one other person, I can't decide whether you're a
brilliant troll or the world's biggest fool. I'm leaning toward fool,
because I've never seen a troll that good. Not even close.

[Mike Connor]

<ba...@polisource.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1132446797.8...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
<SNIP>

> Be specific about the "insane crap" in my posts. "Less-than-warm" isn't
> an appropriate description of the responses.

My dear old fruitcake, if we were infected with your particular strain of
insanity, we would not be fishing. Precisely this, some might say extremely
fortunate lack of insanity, also prevents us from being at all moved by
such nonsense. In other words, most of the eminently sensible people here
think you are misguided.

Your posts are based on the false premise that fish "suffer". This is
physiologically impossible for fish, their brains and nervous systems are
not highly developed enough to allow them to "suffer". The only unnecessary
suffering going on around here is yours, and you are apparently attempting
to inflict a portion of it on us.

The simplest and most humane method of killing a fish, as some posters have
already explained to you, is to stun it with a blow to the head, it will
then either die outright, or suffocate while stunned. Nobody here would be
intentionally inhumane to a fish, for the most part they are obsessed with
fish, and their welfare.

If your goal is to obviate unecessary suffering, then your course of action
must be clear. Depart, and take your suffering with you.

MC

[riverman]

And what bucket would that be?

You still don't get it, do you?

--riverman
(enjoying this less and less. Its getting close to the wolfing hour, I
believe...)