Do fish feel pain?
Fly2bass
example;You've been working this fish for close to an hour that's tucked under
some overhanging brush.The fish pokes it's head up every once in awhile to sip
a small bug off of the film.You've managed to slide several drag free casts
underneath the bush to no avail.Finally,you get pissed off and begin to
hurriedly reel in your line.The fish comes charging out after your fly and
hooks itself.Now,that's gotto hurt.Ouch!
Dav...@aol.compirate
>Does it hurt them when the hook digs into their mouth, in the sense of how I
>would perceive pain if I bit down on a fly and had it tugged into my lip or
>cheek?
>
>
Naw. Doesn't hurt, Ms. Wong. Imagine yourself sitting down on a tack
placed on a chair. That tack has a string attached to it. When you sit
on it, someone yanks the string. The tack rips through the cellulite and
fatty tissue and you feel no pain. Hell, might even be pleasurable! <g>
Now, a few for you: Do peas cry when they are seperated from their siblings
when all are removed from the pod? Does an ear of corn scream when you
rip off its protective shuck? Does your grass panic when you run the
lawn mower? Do the dust mites go berserk when they hear the vacuum cleaner?
What's the last thing that goes through the mind of a bug that hits your
windshield?
Louie
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Michael Eraña
says...
> Does it hurt them when the hook digs into their mouth, in the sense of how I
> would perceive pain if I bit down on a fly and had it tugged into my lip or
> cheek?
>
>
>
And she's from Canada no less!!! In the current season I would recommend
that you should find a good Dim Sum restaurant and stay there for the
duration of this quandry.
If you are genuinely interested in the subject then please research it on
the NET and you local library. Talk to biologists and Scientists. You'll
find very little here except taunts and barbs.
If you read into our archives you'll see that we'll not have any truck
with PETA folks and thus I would suggest you turn to other resources for
knowledge!
--
Michael Eraña
Sr. Systems Architect/Analyst
http://erana.tsx.org - Family Site
http://merana67.tripod.com - Fishing Site
Jeffrey Miller
folk. in the interest of scientific truth, i propose an experiment.
why don't you come down to foscoe, nc in may. we'll hook a fly through
your lips and through the lips of a grass carp...then, we'll document
the results and report them here and on your regular newsgroup as
well...
jeff
Wayne Harrison
>What's the last thing that goes through the mind of a bug that hits your
>windshield?
>
>Louie
godammit, i need a drink?
wayno
>
>
>
>
R Dean
It's ass?
R Dean
>Does it hurt them when the hook digs into their mouth, in the sense of how I
>would perceive pain if I bit down on a fly and had it tugged into my lip or
>cheek?
>
>
Maybe you could take a long walk on a short pier and ask them?
Wayne Harrison
wrote:
>>>What's the last thing that goes through the mind of a bug that hits your
>>>windshield?
>>>
>>>Louie
>>
>
>>>
>It's ass?
absolutely hysterical
wayno
blackcat
<snipped>
> It's ass?
Ah I laughed so hard that it brought tears to my eyes!
bc.
--
ROFF is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea --
massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining,
and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you
least expect it."
Derevaun Seraun
> > Does it hurt them when the hook digs into their mouth, in the sense of how I
> > would perceive pain if I bit down on a fly and had it tugged into my lip or
> > cheek?
> If you are genuinely interested in the subject then please research it on
> the NET and you local library. Talk to biologists and Scientists. You'll
> find very little here except taunts and barbs.
Indeed, the best place for civil discussion of this topic is in the
aquaria newsgroups. There's a recurring thread about euthanizing
pet fish; sometimes even people who fish contribute.
DS
blackcat
<snipped>
For euthanasia, nothing beats a garbage disposal for your pet fish.
Derek McLauchlan
by way of generalization (always dangerous) in regards to those who
responded:
1. Few of you wish to examine the humanity of your hobby;
2. Few of you appear to know the answer to the question (don't feel bad,
neither do I);
3. Several of you appear defensive in regards the question. You assume
that I am an "outsider" or belong in the "aquaria" newsgroup. In fact I
have fished since childhood, and have exclusively fly fished for the last 5
years. My motivation in asking the question is simple. I love fly fishing.
I hate killing things. Very rarely I will kill fish that I catch on purpose
because I decide to eat them. I don't particularly care for the taste of
fish. I'd prefer a burger, to be honest. I would feel better about C & R
fishing if I knew that I wasn't a "bad" person for indulging my hobby at the
expense of a more "lowly" life form;
4. One of you is more interested in labelling me because of what he
thinks he knows about my ethnicity than in addressing my query.
In any event, I'm glad that so many of you took the time to respond.
Marilyn Wong wrote in message ...
Derek McLauchlan
address...
Derek McLauchlan wrote in message ...
>Thank you for all of your comments. If I may, I will make some
observations
>by way of generalization (always dangerous) in regards to those who
>responded:
>etc....
Steve Zimmerman
news:38B0A72A...@sprintmail.com...
> I always use barbless hooks. I tell you they really help you release
not only
> fish but also yourself without hurting them. I simply pulled out the
3/0 hook
> of my face. Again no pain. It didn't cause much bleeding, either. I
continued
> to fish. When I went home a few hours later, no one noticed anything
around my
> mouth.
Now there's a man who just might be tough enough to jog home from his
own vasectomy...
--Steve
Jeff Shriver
going to suggest that you hook yourself in a tender place and report
to the group. Egads, have you no limits?
Jeff
On Sun, 20 Feb 2000 20:10:20 -0800, "Derek McLauchlan"
<d...@hlslawyers.com> wrote:
>Thank you for all of your comments. If I may, I will make some observations
>by way of generalization (always dangerous) in regards to those who
>responded:
>
Jeff Shriver
tree, too? Anyhow, go hook yourself and let us know how it feels.
Jeff
On Sun, 20 Feb 2000 20:16:13 -0800, "Derek McLauchlan"
<d...@hlslawyers.com> wrote:
>Yes, for those of you scratching your heads, I was using her email
>address...
>
>Derek McLauchlan wrote in message ...
>>Thank you for all of your comments. If I may, I will make some
>observations
>>by way of generalization (always dangerous) in regards to those who
>>responded:
>>etc....
>
>
David Snedeker
Yeah, right. Only using her address. Thats the ticket. We are more concerned
with her ethnicity than . . . . Huh? Derek ( If that is your name and you
are not using someone elses E-mail) why did you wait so long to clear up
this matter? And you should know that this NG is an equal opportunity rough
house, so get off the ethnic bit, unless of course this new Scotch thing
requires it as some form of penance, in which case hang around because Im
sure we can accommodate any form of abuse you may so require.
Just as a mental exercise, why don't you guess how many times this NG has
been trolled by annoying PETA brained pain-in-the-asses, with even more
complicated identities than yours?
And, why, you are a fisher yourself? Uh huh, yeah, right. OK heres my
advise: You feel their pain? Stop fishing. Go to mass, confess your sins and
never, never fish again.
Dave
Derek McLauchlan wrote in message <4U2s4.510$Xk2....@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>...
ET1
Derevaun Seraun <dere...@squirrelly.com> wrote:
>merana67...@hotmail.com (Michael Eraña) wrote:
>
>> > Does it hurt them when the hook digs into their mouth, in the sense of how I
>> > would perceive pain if I bit down on a fly and had it tugged into my lip or
>> > cheek?
>
>> the NET and you local library. Talk to biologists and Scientists. You'll
>> find very little here except taunts and barbs.
>
>Indeed, the best place for civil discussion of this topic is in the
>aquaria newsgroups. There's a recurring thread about euthanizing
>pet fish; sometimes even people who fish contribute.
Hey, I "euthanize" my pet fish. Put them right in with my pet turtles.
Talk about not a nice way to go. Having your fins bit off one at a time
and then eaten alive.
Later,
- Ken
--
"If any of you cry at my funeral, I'll never speak to you again!"
- Stan Laurel
Shinji Unno
> Does it hurt them when the hook digs into their mouth, in the sense of how I
> would perceive pain if I bit down on a fly and had it tugged into my lip or
> cheek?
I don't know if fish feel pain, but I can tell you how I felt when I hooked
myself into myself with a 3/0 hook. It was a windy day, and I was tired and
sleepy. I guess I anchored the fly too close to myself before executing a full
stroke at the end of double Spey casting.
!!!???
I didn't realize what happened. I just knew I really messed up the cast. I
looked for the fly but couldn't find it. I felt something at the edge of my
mouth. No pain but something hard. I felt it with my hand.
!!!???
There was the big Spey fly stuck next to my mouth. The dressing of the fly and
hook point were outside, but the hook bend was inside my mouth. I was foul
hooked!
I always use barbless hooks. I tell you they really help you release not only
fish but also yourself without hurting them. I simply pulled out the 3/0 hook
of my face. Again no pain. It didn't cause much bleeding, either. I continued
to fish. When I went home a few hours later, no one noticed anything around my
mouth.
Since then, I have not felt too bad when I catch and release with a barbless
hook.
Shinji on the Sky
R Dean
wrote:
>merana67...@hotmail.com (Michael Eraña) wrote:
>
>> > Does it hurt them when the hook digs into their mouth, in the sense of how I
>> > would perceive pain if I bit down on a fly and had it tugged into my lip or
>> > cheek?
>
>> If you are genuinely interested in the subject then please research it on
>> the NET and you local library. Talk to biologists and Scientists. You'll
>> find very little here except taunts and barbs.
>
>Indeed, the best place for civil discussion of this topic is in the
>aquaria newsgroups. There's a recurring thread about euthanizing
>pet fish; sometimes even people who fish contribute.
>
>DS
I'll ask, knowing I'll probably regret it, but why would you want/need to
euthanize pet fish? Is it like having to put down a very sick dog, cat, etc.?
I didn't realize animal medicine had gooten far enough to really diagnose
smaller true fish.
I am seriously asking.
TIA
R
Levi
> I'll ask, knowing I'll probably regret it, but why would you want/need to
> euthanize pet fish? Is it like having to put down a very sick dog, cat, etc.?
> I didn't realize animal medicine had gooten far enough to really diagnose
> smaller true fish.
> I am seriously asking.
It's not always clear what is wrong, but sometimes it's obvious that things are going
down hill, and the best thing to do is just get it over with. Fish aren't really
like other pets. If I accidentally killed as many pet dogs as I have fish, I would
be thrown in jail for animal cruelty. :-)
--
Levi
Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.
-- Dave Barry
Dave LaCourse
>Thank you for all of your comments. If I may, I will make some observations
>by way of generalization (always dangerous) in regards to those who
>responded:
>
(snip)
Derek, you got some pretty smart-assed remarks, but you deserved them for not
being forthright with us. A post from a woman (Marilyn Wong) about the pain
the poor fishies must feel can only be identified as a troll by some peta nut.
BTW, the answer is "his ass".
Stick around, Derek, but drop the Marilyn personna. Louie and Luc don't like
her.
Dave L.
Derek McLauchlan
shared email. I'm too cheap to have my own at home. After all, I am
Scottish ;) I set the record straight as soon as I next logged on.
However, as Marilyn often outfishes me (on the fly), I hope that she
wouldn't be written off simply because of her name or gender, should she be
so inclined to contribute to this fine forum.
Dave LaCourse <dav...@aol.comPirate> wrote in message
news:20000221063603...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
R Dean
wrote:
>Thank you for all of your comments. If I may, I will make some observations
>by way of generalization (always dangerous) in regards to those who
>responded:
OOH, OOH...ME, TOO...Let me make comments, PLEASE, PLEASE...
>
>1. Few of you wish to examine the humanity of your hobby;
First of all, that it is a private matter. Secondly, I bet most here have made
their decision and made peace with their decision. Third, a form of this is
CONSTANTLY being rehashed on ROFF. Finally, a troll is a troll. Have the guts
to claim it and not hide behind a bunch of BS...
>2. Few of you appear to know the answer to the question (don't feel bad,
>neither do I);
Some do, some don't, some care, some don't. If you really wanted to know, you
could ask under your own name, and a ask it like a gentleman or lady, or
whatever. If you'd have explained and asked in a polite fashion, I bet
(seriously) you'd have gotten legitimate replies. Hey, even your troll got a
few polite, informed replies. Think about what honesty might have done....
>3. Several of you appear defensive in regards the question. You assume
>that I am an "outsider" or belong in the "aquaria" newsgroup.
Not defensive, particularly, just not fond of trolls, and that is true of almost
any NG on any subject. Oh, sorry to burst your self-satisfied bubble, but
you're not the first bozo on USENET to try and make a point with an alledged
psuedotroll. Suppose we can over to lameass.dork.munging.troll and posted an
honest post like,
"Pardon me, but I'm new to NGs, and wondered if it was considered improper, or
at least rude, to troll NGs just to try to make some obscure point?"
TIA.
joe...@myrealaddress.comx
I bet you and your group readers would have blown a gasket, right?
> In fact Ihave fished since childhood, and have exclusively fly fished for the last 5
>years.
Oh, good...pretentious, as well.....
>My motivation in asking the question is simple. I love fly fishing.
>I hate killing things. Very rarely I will kill fish that I catch on purpose
>because I decide to eat them.
Then quit pretending to fish and don't eat until you can accept death. It's
called a food chain, and you're in it. Hey, you (and all humans) are nothing
but a present (and future) source of food to many organisms, "Dippy Oaks Farms,"
kinda-sorta. You're your own mini ADM. Be proud.
Wanna rewrite the rules? Then make it your version of fair...go try to eat a
Cape Buffalo burger. Just take a knife, a Weber, and some charcoal. It'll kill
your ass out of pure mean, but it won't eat the kill... Or maybe you could get
a recount on the "that's the way it is" vote....
> I don't particularly care for the taste of fish. I'd prefer a burger, to be honest.
From ill or old cattle, I guess....we got some, cheap. Bring a fork and a
doctor... Never seen one commit suicide, so you're sorta screwed as to
physically healthy, but not killed. Oh...wait a minute...you're one of THOSE
people....
>I would feel better about C & R fishing if I knew that I wasn't a "bad" person
>for indulging my hobby at the expense of a more "lowly" life form;
Then stop pretending to fish, and besides, you're not bad, you just type that
way. If you're looking to have those around you to tell you what you believe,
you're pretty much done anyway. Besides, if you truly wanted real information,
why use some troll? Hey, this may be a fishing group, but we're not (all)
idiots....
EMAIL Tim. You guys will just love writing each other....
>4. One of you is more interested in labelling me because of what he
>thinks he knows about my ethnicity than in addressing my query.
No, we're not racists. We're sexists. You can't even understand your own troll
results, or argue them properly. The other reason for the suspicion was the sex
of your forgery, not the ethnicity. Very few women seem to post here, and when
they do, it's either serious and polite or a troll.
>In any event, I'm glad that so many of you took the time to respond.
I'm sure. Time to go back to dork troll school. God, have SOME pride in your
work.... Plus, if there was ever a group with smart(ass), intelligent people who
will rip you to shreds with a several keys behind their backs, this is it. If
you wanted real info, you'd have gotten it.
Now go away, you're no fun anymore. I'm smarter and more clever, so I'll win.
Plus, I have better things to do than school some goofball. If you're gonna
fuck with the bulls, don't whine about the horns....
Dave LaCourse
Derek, it was not that MS Wong was identified as a woman or anything else that
solicited such smart ass remarks. The fact that "she" has never posted on this
ng before sent up red flags, especially when that posts deals with pain the
fishies are going to endure. If *you* had worded your initial post as you did
your second post, I doubt you would have received such a negative welcome.
ROFF can be a rewarding and informative forum, as well as a madhouse filled
with degenerates and reprobates, especially of the southern type. Stick
around; I think you'll fit it. <g>
Dave LaCourse
"We can't change the winds, but.....
we can adjust our sails!!"
Tom Brown
Dave LaCourse wrote:
............snip.........................
> ROFF can be a rewarding and informative forum, as well as a madhouse filled
> with degenerates and reprobates, especially of the southern type.
No, Dave, *particularly* of the Southern type. Also, kindly note that
*Southern* should be capitalized; "degenerates and reprobates" are not, if used
in the same sentence as equilibrance is assumed.
Jheeez....you'd think we'd get *some* respect.
> Dave LaCourse
Tom
--
Tom Brown
Wake Forest, NC
..........................................
Please don't tell my mother that I hang out at ROFF; she thinks I play
piano at a whorehouse.
Author's name withheld
Mu Young Lee
> You're your own mini ADM.
Rico, you are one funny dude. Keep the songs coming too.
Moishe
Mark Faulkner
R Dean wrote:
[a very clever response, worthy in every sense of ROFF]
Mark Faulkner
Michael Eraña
says...
> I'll ask, knowing I'll probably regret it, but why would you want/need to
> euthanize pet fish? Is it like having to put down a very sick dog, cat, etc.?
> I didn't realize animal medicine had gooten far enough to really diagnose
> smaller true fish.
> I am seriously asking.
>
> TIA
> R
>
Well here's one reason why.
I used to raise Oscars. I'd taked them from two weeks old to full grown
"mutts". Interesting behavior for a fish. I'd almost swear they were like
dogs... I know I am anthrophomorphizing <?!?> the critter but it was easy
to do. Brutus and Ceasar both liked Chicken and the occasional gold fish
treat (no not the cracker but live gold fish... PETA be damned!). I guess
one of the gold fish I had must had come from a "dirty" tank and I found
that Ceasar had started to get small pin pricks on his head. At this I
isolated Brutus and started the regimen to burn out what ever it may have
been. Turns out that it was the dreaded "hole in the head" disease (no
kidding). I tried all forms of medication on poor Ceasar but in the end
he had a hole in his head that exposed the internals and it was around a
quater inch in diameter (roughly). He became totally listless and "not-
himself". I knew he was done for. Rather than watch him develop more of
those hideous holes I chose to end it for him.
Heck I dunno but the loss of a pet suck no matter how you cut it. I'd had
Ceasar for over two years then and he was part of my daily routine. I
ended up using the most instantaneous way to dispatch a fish. Place in a
plastic bag and then hold it at the handle and then swing in an arc to
slam the heavy end of the bag into a very hard solid object. Instant
puree. Kinda morbid I agree but most other methods seemed uncertain to
me.
So I doubt that Cesar actually felt of understood anything. He lived and
his instincts guided him. He probably would have continued on until the
disease eventaully took him. The fact that I did it was selfish and
purely for me. Do I feel bad about doing it? Sure. Like I said it's hard
to loose pets. Did I feel it was necessesary? For me it was and I was his
keeper.
'nuff said
--
Michael Eraña
Sr. Systems Architect/Analyst
http://erana.tsx.org - Family Site
http://merana67.tripod.com - Fishing Site
R Dean
>R Dean wrote:
>
>> I'll ask, knowing I'll probably regret it, but why would you want/need to
>> euthanize pet fish? Is it like having to put down a very sick dog, cat, etc.?
>> I didn't realize animal medicine had gooten far enough to really diagnose
>> smaller true fish.
>> I am seriously asking.
>
>It's not always clear what is wrong, but sometimes it's obvious that things are going
>down hill, and the best thing to do is just get it over with. Fish aren't really
>like other pets. If I accidentally killed as many pet dogs as I have fish, I would
>be thrown in jail for animal cruelty. :-)
>--
>Levi
>
Thanks, I didn't know. I thought it was kind of a "you knew there was a problem
when they were floating" kind of thing.
R
Michael Eraña
says...
> Thank you for all of your comments. If I may, I will make some observations
> by way of generalization (always dangerous) in regards to those who
> responded:
>
True for some but others accept it for what it is to them. No one can
tell you what it means... You have to figure that out for yourself?
> 2. Few of you appear to know the answer to the question (don't feel bad,
> neither do I);
Search on (wo)_man?
> 3. Several of you appear defensive in regards the question. You assume
> that I am an "outsider" or belong in the "aquaria" newsgroup. In fact I
> have fished since childhood, and have exclusively fly fished for the last 5
> years. My motivation in asking the question is simple. I love fly fishing.
> I hate killing things. Very rarely I will kill fish that I catch on purpose
> because I decide to eat them. I don't particularly care for the taste of
> fish. I'd prefer a burger, to be honest. I would feel better about C & R
> fishing if I knew that I wasn't a "bad" person for indulging my hobby at the
> expense of a more "lowly" life form;
Actually we didn't assume you belonged to the Aquaria NG. We suggested
you seek the group for a more considered opinion. Aquirists would be more
prone to consider this than sportsmen.
Interesting. So basically you are asking us to justify your pleasures. I
think you'd be better served to do more thinking on that yourself. Advice
concerning your beliefs and pleasures are poor offerings at best.
Fishing and it's pursuit does not make you a bad person. YOU MAKE YOU a
bad person. Your hobbies do not necessarily dictate your state. I am sure
that there are many psychopaths who have such urbane pasttimes as sublime
as philiatelics (sp?) but they're still psychopaths!
Never ask someone if you're good or bad. You should know that yourself.
Expense of a lowlier life form? So what you torture drug dealers?
Otherwise I don't understand the reference. If you consider fish a
lowlier form of life then your assessment differs from mine. I'd save a
trouts life before I helped out a pusher.
> 4. One of you is more interested in labelling me because of what he
> thinks he knows about my ethnicity than in addressing my query.
>
That might be me. I consider everyone's ethnicity an integral part of
their being. It has direct bearing on who we are and how we act. I am
very much a Filipino yet I am also very much Canadian. I act as I do now
but with the understanding that I am who I am because of what I am. I
have many asian friends of various cultures. Raised in first generation
homes they all have the beliefs of their parents to some extent and that
tanslates into cultural biases that influence behavior. So in effect I
took that into account in my statements? Perhaps you think this is
racist? Maybe. Was it intended in an offensive matter. that's for you to
judge. Either way I said it and I meant it.
> In any event, I'm glad that so many of you took the time to respond.
>
Despite my retiscense (sp) in my earlier response I did enjoy responding
to this one!
TBone
"Newer research suggests that the fish’s ability to experience pain and fear
is hardly significantly different from warm-blooded animals. This should
have consequences on how we treat fish. "
--
TimW
ET1
William Loehman/Susan Schwarz
strong fear/flight reaction. If the fear component is taken out,
research tends to indicate out that fish do not feel pain in the same
way as humans. The pattern and type of receptors they have are different
from humans or other mammals. Even in humans pain is measured in an
indirect manner i.e.. asking the person about the pain or observing
their behavior. Since there is no empirical way of measuring pain, any
conclusions are made by inference.
There is also a strong psychological component of pain in humans that
animals don't exhibit. A few examples from my dog experiences. Susan and
myself were working for a Weimeraner kennel many years ago. We came in
one morning and found a male with a large gash in his abdomen dragging a
large section of intestine on the ground. He was jumping up and down,
ready to play and eat. Male dogs after being castrated are feeling fine
the next day. Can't envision any person reacting in this way.
Willi
gol...@frii.com
TBone wrote:
>
> From the Norwegian research paper...
>
rb608
William Loehman/Susan Schwarz <gol...@frii.com> wrote in message
news:38B2C238...@frii.com...
> Male dogs after being castrated are feeling fine
> the next day. Can't envision any person reacting in this way.
Maybe there's something therapeutic about being able to lick yourself?
Joe F.
Rusty Hook
I've caught myself with flies before (#12-16 or therabouts),
AND IT HURT LIKE HELL!!!
but shortly after I pulled it out, it didn't hurt that much, and just a
little while later, I had basically forgotten about it.
(glad I use debarbed hooks; like removing a thorn..)
I'm guessing that the experience would be similar for a fish;
not something we should dismiss, but not something to lose a lot of
sleep over.
--
Rusty Hook
Laramie, Wyo
c...@uwyo.edu
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Xochi
> Does it hurt them when the hook digs into their mouth, in the sense of how I
> would perceive pain if I bit down on a fly and had it tugged into my lip or
> cheek?
We can only hope.
If you want a difinitive answer, why don't you ask the clerk at the 7-11
a block from my house? He has so many rings, studs, balls o' metal, what
have you, pierced into his face (presumably voluntarily) that it looks
like he fell into a fuggin' rivet machine head first.
Xochi
> 1. Few of you wish to examine the humanity of your hobby;
> 2. Few of you appear to know the answer to the question (don't feel bad,
> neither do I);
> 3. Several of you appear defensive in regards the question. You assume
> that I am an "outsider" or belong in the "aquaria" newsgroup. In fact I
> have fished since childhood, and have exclusively fly fished for the last 5
> years. My motivation in asking the question is simple. I love fly fishing.
> I hate killing things. Very rarely I will kill fish that I catch on purpose
> because I decide to eat them. I don't particularly care for the taste of
> fish. I'd prefer a burger, to be honest. I would feel better about C & R
> fishing if I knew that I wasn't a "bad" person for indulging my hobby at the
> expense of a more "lowly" life form;
Dude. If you are going anthropomorphize fish at that level stop
fishing. Seriously. The truth of the matter is fishing is
dangerous. Particularly to the fish. If you are seriously worried about
whether the fish feels pain, etc, much less has an opportunity to die
an unnatural death by your hand, you have no business fishing.
I've thought about it, 'examined the humanity', what have you, and have
decided that given my ethical/religous views it's okay for me to do (in
accordance with the applicable laws where I fish). I think you're
getting a lot of attitude because many of us here *have* considered our
personal choice carefully (in fact it's been debated ad nauseum in this
forum) and we get tired of being questioned/harrassed by good
intentioned (if not misguided, IMHO) people intentionally trying to
interfere with our execution of that choice.
If you're truly interested in what the opinion here is, open the topic
reasonably, sans fake identity and intentionally loaded terminology,
you'll get more sane 'data' than you ever thought possible. Until then,
you're just another troll.
George Adams
>
>"Newer research suggests that the fish’s ability to experience pain and fear
>is hardly significantly different from warm-blooded animals. This should
>have consequences on how we treat fish. "
>
Here's a common sense exersize that doesn't reqiure a Norwegian Theologian.
We all know the reaction of a fish when it is hooked. It pulls against the
resistance as hard as it can. It leaps, it dives, it does everything within
it's power to escape, most of the time pulling directly against the resistance
it senses.
Now. Imagine a person with a hook of the same proportion to his size as the
hook was to the trout. Hook him firmly in the corner of the mouth and pull as
hard as possible on a line attatched to the hook.
What will the hooked person do? Pull against the resistance? Leap into the
air? Roll around on the floor? My bet is that he will run in the direction of
the resistance just as fast as he can because the hook hurts like hell! Just
the opposite reaction of a fish.
Do fish feel pain as humans define it?
No way!
George Adams
"From the rockin' of the cradle to the rollin' of the hearse, the goin' up was
worth the comin' down."
___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"
Michael Eraña
georg...@aol.comnospam says...
<SNIP>
> Now. Imagine a person with a hook of the same proportion to his size as the
> hook was to the trout. Hook him firmly in the corner of the mouth and pull as
> hard as possible on a line attatched to the hook.
> What will the hooked person do? Pull against the resistance? Leap into the
> air? Roll around on the floor? My bet is that he will run in the direction of
> the resistance just as fast as he can because the hook hurts like hell! Just
> the opposite reaction of a fish.
>
> Do fish feel pain as humans define it?
> No way!
>
>
Say that's a good one George!
I'll hafta remember that...
ET1
Michael Eraña <merana67...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <20000222164425...@ng-ci1.aol.com>,
>georg...@aol.comnospam says...
><SNIP>
>
>> Now. Imagine a person with a hook of the same proportion to his size as the
>> hook was to the trout. Hook him firmly in the corner of the mouth and pull as
>> hard as possible on a line attatched to the hook.
>> What will the hooked person do? Pull against the resistance? Leap into the
>> air? Roll around on the floor? My bet is that he will run in the direction of
>> the resistance just as fast as he can because the hook hurts like hell! Just
>> the opposite reaction of a fish.
>>
>> Do fish feel pain as humans define it?
>> No way!
Since there's been so much discussion of this lately, I decided to test
your theory. I haven't let my turtles "torture" live fish lately so I
went out yesterday and bought a dozen minnows. Took a short piece of
mono and the smallest fly I could find (about a size 24) and dropped it
into the tank. Short pause while I scold myself for being too stupid
to realize that the turtles would go for the fly too. Put turtles in
separate bucket. A couple misses and finally one of the minnows
catches himself. I pull gently against him and it fights as we all
would expect. I give the line as much slack as possible. The fish
stops struggling and begins to swim normally. Add fish food, all fish
including the one still hooked begin to feed normally. The hooked fish
not appearing to even notice the hook in it's mouth. Remove hook.
Fish rejoins the others swimming normally. Add more fish food. All fish
including the previously hooked one feed normally. Add turtles back
into tank. No more fish.
I do not believe that fish feel pain as we perceive it. They may
perceive some semblance of fear, but it appears to be more of the
instinctive "some predator has ahold of me somehow...must flee"
variety than an emotional response.
YMMV,
George Adams
>I do not believe that fish feel pain as we perceive it. They may
>perceive some semblance of fear, but it appears to be more of the
>instinctive "some predator has ahold of me somehow...must flee"
>variety than an emotional response.
>
Interesting experiment, but where did you get your theology degree? {:-)
ET1
George Adams <georg...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
>>From: janikk
>
>>I do not believe that fish feel pain as we perceive it. They may
>>perceive some semblance of fear, but it appears to be more of the
>>instinctive "some predator has ahold of me somehow...must flee"
>>variety than an emotional response.
>
>Interesting experiment, but where did you get your theology degree? {:-)
Mail order, from Norway. Send them $25 US and they send you a degree
fit for framing. Apparently it's all the rage over there.
Here's the URL:
And a snippet from their website...
"Come join the growing trend of amateur theologians. Never lose an
argument again, just state that you have a degree in Theology and
watch the clueless bow to your short-sighted positions. Just send
$25 US to the "Screw the Clueless Foundation", yes, $25 or just 5
easy installments of $10 each."
:-),
JT
>
>If you want a difinitive answer, why don't you ask the clerk at the 7-11
>a block from my house? He has so many rings, studs, balls o' metal, what
>have you, pierced into his face (presumably voluntarily) that it looks
>like he fell into a fuggin' rivet machine head first.
So do 7-11 clerks feel pain or not? Have you put a turtle on them yet?
Levi
William Loehman/Susan Schwarz wrote:
> I notice that the paper tie fear and pain together. Fish do have a
> strong fear/flight reaction. If the fear component is taken out,
> research tends to indicate out that fish do not feel pain in the same
> way as humans. The pattern and type of receptors they have are different
> from humans or other mammals. Even in humans pain is measured in an
> indirect manner i.e.. asking the person about the pain or observing
> their behavior. Since there is no empirical way of measuring pain, any
> conclusions are made by inference.
>
> There is also a strong psychological component of pain in humans that
> animals don't exhibit. A few examples from my dog experiences. Susan and
> myself were working for a Weimeraner kennel many years ago. We came in
> one morning and found a male with a large gash in his abdomen dragging a
> large section of intestine on the ground. He was jumping up and down,
> ready to play and eat. Male dogs after being castrated are feeling fine
> the next day. Can't envision any person reacting in this way.
>
> Willi
> gol...@frii.com
I came across this for a discussion on one of the aquaria bulletin boards,
http://www.capitalresearch.org/ap/ap-0797.html
particularly this part:
quote:
PeTA contends that fish “can feel pain just like cats,
dogs, and
humans.” In a recent letter pleading for an end to
fishing at historic
Walden Pond outside of Boston, PeTA told Massachusetts
wildlife
officials, “Fish have a neurochemical system like ours,
the brain
capacity to experience fear and pain.” (It added: fish
have “individual
personalities” and “develop special relationships with
each other.”)
In fact, the overwhelming majority of biologists believe
no such thing.
John G. Nickum, a fishery biologist with the U.S. Fish
and Wildlife
Service, states flatly that “no ‘pain’ receptors, nor
‘pain’ recognition
systems, have been identified in fish. . . . There is
evidence that the
struggle that fish carry out when hooked, or captured in
other ways, is
a behavioral characteristic. . . . If the response is
behavioral, it would
have considerable survival value (i.e., those fish with
well-developed
escape behavior survive to produce the next generation.”)
/quote
Wolfgang
George Adams wrote:
> ....Here's a common sense exersize that doesn't reqiure a Norwegian Theologian.
> .....What will the hooked person do?.......
Well, I am not a Norwegian Theologian but I once knew a U.P. Finn and thus find
myself in the position of being uniquely qualified to offer an opinion on this
matter. The available evidence suggests that the average fly fisher is marginally
more cerebral than his or her quarry. Obviously, this will mean that reactions in
the two species may vary, insofar as they DO vary, at least in part due to factors
other than the mere instinctive reaction to pain. It is highly doubtful that Joe
Average Trout takes the time to analyze his predicament and, even if he did, that
he would likely come to the conclusion that simply following in the direction of
the offending pull would somewhat lessen his discomfiture. In other words,
whether the impetus to struggle is supplied by pain, fear, or some other, as yet
unknown factor is impossible to determine without a great deal more research.
Moreover, the tendency of the fish to cease struggling and continue feeding when
the tug on the line is reduced tells us nothing about what the fish is feeling.
In pain or not, the fish must eventually return to its normal behavior or die.
The whole analysis of Joe Trout's behavior is of course further complicated by his
ignorance concerning whether there is a George or a Timmy at the other end of the
line.
By contrast, Joe Average ROFFian would doubtless stop to sip a bit of fermented
vegetable matter and perhaps take a puff or two of the combustion product of the
herb of choice before deciding how to proceed upon being hooked in the lip.
Whether or not he would then give in to fear and or pain, and what the result of
such a decision might be are, of course, somewhat problematical. Preliminary data
suggest that while some of the critters are easily led astray by such inducements
as glossy color photographs in catalogs or by the blandishments of political
candidates of various stripes, these reactions take place, somewhat paradoxically,
despite the inevitable pain to come, rather than in reaction to any present pain.
On the other hand, a quick Deja News search will confirm, even for the hard core
skeptic, that some of the beasties will react violently and unpredictably to even
the slightest perceived discomfort.
Bottom line: A lot more research needs to be done. Go fish.
TBone
>The available evidence suggests that the average fly fisher is marginally
>more cerebral than his or her quarry.
Really ? I've never seen a trout so befoul his nest.
http://www.sfwriter.com/brkurz.htm
--
TimW, Halfordian Golfer
"A Cash Flow Runs Through It..."
"Guilt replaced the creel..."
B.M.P.I.A.
Wolfgang
TBone wrote:
<the usual guilt ridden tripe>
The few,
The proud,
The hag ridden,
The Flagellants are looking for a few good men........I suppose you'll do.
Wolfgang
"Guilt debased the meal".
rrh...@fourthchannel.com
<snip>
"TBone" <twa...@aspenres.com> wrote:
"Newer research suggests that the fish’s ability to experience pain and
fear is hardly significantly different from warm-blooded animals. This
should have consequences on how we treat fish. " TimW
<end snip>
I disagree with this. Fish do not feel pain. I think the real issue
is "How much stress should anglers put on a fish?" A fish really about
five stress points when being caught:
1-the hook set,
2-the play and retrieve,
3-the netting (and possible removal from H20),
4-the hook removal (especially if barbed),
5-and the release.
I think our jobs as anglers and wildlife custodians is to reduce the
stress as much as possible, use barbless as much as you can. Don't
play the fish out, release it as soon as possible, face the critters up
stream so the can get a cool drink for going on their way. A guide
friend of mine said that if you turn a brown on its back, it goes
motionless, enabling you to remove the hook easily and quickly.
That's my humble $.02. Feel free to disagree with any part of this
that you wish.
Ron Rhodes
Fish Ohio!
Wolfgang
Jonathan Cook wrote:
> ......All I hope is that people think about them, and never get to a point
> where they're unwilling to examine their current beliefs and possibly
> change them.
So far, I have encountered exactly two people on ROFF (anyone who can't figure
out who they are hasn't been paying attention) who are unwilling to examine
their beliefs with regard to the ethics of what we are all engaged in.
Everyone else has demonstrated, at least to my satisfaction, that they take
such issues seriously and that they have given them a great deal of thought.
That the two exceptions hold diametrically opposed views should come as no
surprise to anyone. That both present a spectrum of options as a dichotomous
choice is as inevitable as it is tedious. That they have, for several months
now, pretended to be best friends is endlessly amusing in a demented sort of
way.
TBone
rrh...@fourthchannel.com wrote in message <89136d$27i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
[deleted]
>1-the hook set,
>2-the play and retrieve,
>3-the netting (and possible removal from H20),
>4-the hook removal (especially if barbed),
>5-and the release.
Steps 4 and 5 do not exist in fishing, they exist only in golfing.
TBone
Fish live on the very edge of survival most of the time. Like sea turtles,
running the gauntlet to the beach, only 1 in several hundred make it to
adulthood, and it's tough every step of the way, surviving in a highly
competative environment in high-gradient relatively sterile ecosystems, C&R
is the equivalent of throwing a starving dog a rubber bone.
Charlie Choc
> C&R
>is the equivalent of throwing a starving dog a rubber bone.
So C&K fly fishing is the equivalent of throwing a starving dog a
rubber bone and then killing it? Your analogies are getting worse and
worse.
--
Charlie...
Wolfgang
TBone wrote:
> .....surviving in a highly competative environment.....
....even after someone let's 'em go....
.....until Timmy eats 'em!
Jon McAnulty
> rrh...@fourthchannel.com wrote in message <89136d$27i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> [deleted]
> >1-the hook set,
> >2-the play and retrieve,
> >3-the netting (and possible removal from H20),
> >4-the hook removal (especially if barbed),
> >5-and the release.
>
> Steps 4 and 5 do not exist in fishing, they exist only in golfing.
>
>
Hell, Tim. Even your own words contradict this post. If you practice selective
harvest there will always be fish outside of a slot limit that would require
release. Nobody in their right mind would not make an effort to try to have
these released fish survive.
Jon
ET1
Oh, he's just FOS. Those of us with short-term memories longer than
those of a fish recall his post from this morning that had him releasing
a fish.
Later,
- Ken
--
"Complex problems have simple, easy-to-understand wrong answers."
-Anon
Charlie Choc
>Oh, he's just FOS. Those of us with short-term memories longer than
>those of a fish recall his post from this morning that had him releasing
>a fish.
>
Foul hooked, which would have had to be released even if it were in
the slot. FWIW.
--
Charlie...
Rusty Hook
> 1. Few of you wish to examine the humanity of your hobby;
I'm not totally sure what you mean by this, but I'll guess you're
talking about the ethical considerations. You must be new here. I'd bet
that at least half the posts on this ng are devoted to the subject!
And, to me at least, it's a bit deeper than a hobby. It's a way of
gathering wild food from the earth, and is something I (and others
here) take *very* seriously.
> 2. Few of you appear to know the answer to the question (don't
feel bad,
> neither do I);
We have answers, but each person has a different answer, and maybe not
the kind of answers you were hoping for.
That's part of what makes life so damn complicated. and interesting.
> 3. Several of you appear defensive in regards the question. You
assume
> that I am an "outsider" or belong in the "aquaria" newsgroup. In
fact I
> have fished since childhood, and have exclusively fly fished for the
last 5
> years. My motivation in asking the question is simple. I love fly
fishing.
> I hate killing things. Very rarely I will kill fish that I catch on
purpose
> because I decide to eat them. I don't particularly care for the
taste of
> fish. I'd prefer a burger, to be honest. I would feel better about
C & R
> fishing if I knew that I wasn't a "bad" person for indulging my hobby
at the
> expense of a more "lowly" life form;
You seem to be a little defensive yourself.
Also, I'm a bit confused. You hate killing things, you don't care for
the taste of fish, but you've been catching fish on artificial flies
for FIVE YEARS??!??
Whether carnivore, omnivore, or vegetarian, we all take life in order
to live. There are no "lower" (or lowly) life forms. The trout you
catch, as well as the mayflies they eat, are as highly evolved as you
are. They've been evolving for over a billion years, just like we have.
They just went in a different direction. That's all. Get used to it.
That ground beef you enjoy came from a commercial feedlot somewhere,
and was killed by someone that you paid to do the job for you.
Yes, I buy meat at the store, like most people do, and I understand
that there are so many people walking the earth that agriculture is a
necessity, as well as a rewarding career for a lot of people, but I'm a
lot more comfortable getting meat on my own, by hunting and fishing. At
least I know that the animals I have taken had a chance to live in the
wild, and were taken as quickly and humanely as possible.
I'm sure that some pain is involved. Death hurts. Do you think that
lions, wolves, and even trout take their prey painlessly? Of course
not. Does this make them "bad"?
Of course not.
And, if you think that C&R fishing exempts you from the killing
involved in flyfishing, then I *know* you are new to roff!
> 4. One of you is more interested in labelling me because of what he
> thinks he knows about my ethnicity than in addressing my query.
> In any event, I'm glad that so many of you took the time to respond.
When you confront a group of people that you understand very little
about, concerning the ethical foundations of something they take very
seriously, and haven't taken the time to listen before speaking, you
shouldn't be shocked if you piss a few of them off.
--
Rusty Hook
Laramie, Wyo
c...@uwyo.edu
TBone
[deleted]
Incredible.
Absolutely incredible post Charlie.
Patricia Anderson
Wolfgang
Patricia Anderson wrote:
> THEY ARE ALL LIARS , IT HURTS LIKE HELL
A fish called Patricia? I believe I saw that one. John Cleese, Jamie
Lee Curtis, Kevin Kelin, etc., right?
Dave LaCourse
Hey, Patricia: "Petrocelli!" "Linguini!" "Ravioli!" "Ferrai!" "Roma, ahhhh
Roma!" "Chiati". Wanna smell my arm pits now?
Rusty Hook
> THEY ARE ALL LIARS , IT HURTS LIKE HELL
One of my posts, written two days ago:
> since we're anthropomorphizing here,
>
> I've caught myself with flies before (#12-16 or therabouts),
> AND IT HURT LIKE HELL!!!
> but shortly after I pulled it out, it didn't hurt that much, and just
> a little while later, I had basically forgotten about it.
> (glad I use debarbed hooks; like removing a thorn..)
>
> I'm guessing that the experience would be similar for a fish;
> not something we should dismiss, but not something to lose a lot of
> sleep over.
Don't quote me, and then say we're all liars.
Makes you look like a fool.
FiddleAway
> Does it hurt them when the hook digs into their mouth
No.
--
-dnc-
FiddleAway
> We all know the reaction of a fish when it is hooked. It pulls against
the
> resistance as hard as it can. It leaps, it dives, it does everything
within
> it's power to escape, most of the time pulling directly against the
resistance
> it senses.
Now here's a man who's never hooked a Brown on the Green just above Little
Hole.
--
-dnc-
George Adams
>Now here's a man who's never hooked a Brown on the Green just above Little
>Hole.
>--
You're correct sir.{:-) What exactly do they do?
FiddleAway
--
-dnc-
George Adams wrote
> >From: "FiddleAway"
>
> >Now here's a man who's never hooked a Brown on the Green just above
Little
> >Hole.
> >--
>
> You're correct sir.{:-) What exactly do they do?
They tug until they feel the resistance, then they allow you to drag them
to hand, knowing that the sooner you unhook them, the sooner they'll be
back swimmin around. The bows upstream, especially the ones only
accessible from boats, give a much better account of themselves.
Fly2bass
this whole "fish pain"discussion is being taken seriously.If they didn't feel
any pain they probably wouldn't put up much of a fight.What fun would that
be?And as far as C&r and C&K why does it have to be one or the other.I've kept
fish on occasion when I wanted to eat one.Not to make a point.Most I
release.Why keep them if I'm not going to eat them?A C&K philosophy has to mean
that when you catch the number of fish that you intend to kill you stop
fishing.That's it.you're done.Again I say "what fun would that be?".I work
really hard in my existence at living by society's rules.Providing for my
family.Conserving resources.Getting involved in my community.If fishing is to
be seen as the one flaw in my character,you know what?,I can live with
that.Fishing is a reward that I work damn hard for.These peta wannabes can go
to hell.
Levi
argument is just because it's winter and there's not that much to talk about so
everybody is chasing a troll around for entertainment. The C&R/C&K thing is the
oldest argument on ROFF, and I can't explain it either, but it never goes away, so
as long as T-bone is alive I guess it will be a part of ROFF. Hang around for a
while and you'll get to know George, ROFF's other persistent oddity. Well, there's
lots of persistent oddities around here, but those are the main ones. :-)
Levi
Fly2bass wrote:
--
V. Ursenbach
I met Wayne Hart last week face-to-face. What a good man.
Wayne, thanks for comeing to Las Vegas.
I can't wait until the conclave until I can see more of you face-to-
face, well face-to-belly button. :-)
--
Vern
My ROFF page:
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html
In article <38B8287A...@hotmail.com>,
Jaxfly58
>that
>this whole "fish pain"discussion is being taken seriously.If they didn't feel
>any pain they probably wouldn't put up much of a fight.What fun would that
>be?And as far as C&r and C&K why does it have to be one or the other.I've
>kept
>fish on occasion when I wanted to eat one.Not to make a point.Most I
>release.Why keep them if I'm not going to eat them?A C&K philosophy has to
>mean
>that when you catch the number of fish that you intend to kill you stop
>fishing.That's it.you're done.Again I say "what fun would that be?".I work
>really hard in my existence at living by society's rules.Providing for my
>family.Conserving resources.Getting involved in my community.If fishing is to
>be seen as the one flaw in my character,you know what?,I can live with
>that.Fishing is a reward that I work damn hard for.These peta wannabes can go
>to hell.
It's always good to have someone else say it exactly the way I feel.
Joel Axelrad
Moon Doggy
you have some buddies here in colorado.
V. Ursenbach <v_d...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<899bp8$udb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
greg pavlov
wrote:
>We all know the reaction of a fish when it is hooked. It pulls against the
>resistance as hard as it can. It leaps, it dives, it does everything within
>it's power to escape, most of the time pulling directly against the resistance
>it senses.
>
>Now. Imagine a person with a hook of the same proportion to his size as the
>hook was to the trout. Hook him firmly in the corner of the mouth and pull as
>hard as possible on a line attatched to the hook.
>What will the hooked person do? Pull against the resistance? ....
>
That's a good point. My suspicion is that many if not most fish are
reacting to the fact that they are being pulled where they do not
want to go, rather than because they feel the hook. For instance,
I've found that if I give a lake trout slack line, they will tend to
stop pulling and just sit there. I've had the same thing happen with
striped bass longer than 24 inches.
greg pavlov
[not affiliated with DFCI or Harvard]
Mike S. Medintz
>Does it hurt them when the hook digs into their mouth
Does it hurt lettuce when you douse it in oil and vinegar? Does it
hurt carrots when you decapitate them and add them to the mix?
Stop your heartless PETA persecution of the plants!
Mike S. Medintz : med...@mindspring.com
"They conferred, as against the Government, the
right to be let alone -- the most comprehensive
of rights..." -Justice Louis Brandeis
Rusty Hook
> Does it hurt lettuce when you douse it in oil and vinegar?
The vinegar can be painful, but the oil has a pallative effect.
> Does it
> hurt carrots when you decapitate them and add them to the mix?
If you cut off the heads first, they don't feel the rest of the
chopping, shredding, etc.
Now, making a nice coleslaw, that's inhumane!
--
Rusty Hook
Laramie, Wyo
c...@uwyo.edu
FiddleAway
> Now, making a nice coleslaw, that's inhumane!
But nothing compared to cracking nuts ... that's something we can all
relate to.
--
-dnc-
Dave LaCourse
>Please note that I am NOT ascribing any high-level thought processes
>to fish, or deciding whether they feel pain or not....But,
>
>If I was hooked in the mouth and I thought the thing on the other
>end of the line was going to slice me open from end to end, clean
>my guts out, and roast me over a fire, I'd pull until my jaw ripped
>out...
>
>JonCook.
LOL. Right, Jon. A fish knows about slicing (especially from end to end), it
also knows that the slicing is going to result in his guts (do fish even have
the conception of guts?) being pulled out, and then roasted (right---something
that eats its food raw knows all about roasting, but hey, maybe they don't know
about frying yet) over a *fire*? Please, please, tell me how the hell a fish
knows about fire. Aha, those walking catfish down in Florida, the ones that
come out onto land and sorta walk on their fins.... those sumbitches must have
seen or known about fire and went back and told all the other fishes.
And you're a scientist, Jon?
Dave LaCourse
Wolfgang
Dave LaCourse wrote:
> ....over a *fire*....
FIRE? Hah! Done that.
Rusty Hook
> LOL. Right, Jon. A fish knows about slicing (especially from end to
end), it
> also knows that the slicing is going to result in his guts (do fish
even have
> the conception of guts?) being pulled out, and then roasted (right---
something
> that eats its food raw knows all about roasting, but hey, maybe they
don't know
> about frying yet) over a *fire*? Please, please, tell me how the
hell a fish
> knows about fire.
They don't know about fire and cooking, but...
Their instincts tell them that if a large animal shows an interest in
them, that interest generally involves dinner. If they didn't have this
instinct, the bears, otters, ospreys, humans, etc, would have wiped
them out a long time ago.
Dave LaCourse
___>They don't know about fire and cooking, but...
>Their instincts tell them that if a large animal shows an interest in
>them, that interest generally involves dinner. If they didn't have this
>instinct, the bears, otters, ospreys, humans, etc, would have wiped
>them out a long time ago.
>
>--
>Rusty Hook
>Laramie, Wyo
>c...@uwyo.edu
>
>
I agree. Never said differently. I was answering a statement by Jon Cook who
was answering a thought by George Adams. I quote Mr. Adams below:
"Here's a common sense exersize that doesn't reqiure a Norwegian Theologian.
"We all know the reaction of a fish when it is hooked. It pulls against the
resistance as hard as it can. It leaps, it dives, it does everything within
it's power to escape, most of the time pulling directly against the resistance
it senses.
"Now. Imagine a person with a hook of the same proportion to his size as the
hook was to the trout. Hook him firmly in the corner of the mouth and pull as
hard as possible on a line attatched to the hook.
What will the hooked person do? Pull against the resistance? Leap into the
air? Roll around on the floor? My bet is that he will run in the direction of
the resistance just as fast as he can because the hook hurts like hell! Just
the opposite reaction of a fish.
Do fish feel pain as humans define it?
No way!
George Adams"
Dave LaCourse
Dave LaCourse
Rusty Hook
> And all I did was give an example that shows the conclusion that
> fish don't feel pain as we do because they pull on the line is
> inappropriate for that thought experiment. There are plenty of
> reasons they might pull on the line *despite* the pain...
Yup. All depends on what might be at the other end of the line...
--
Rusty Hook
Laramie, Wyo
c...@uwyo.edu
Michael Gibson
used to do this because the nose is rather tender and a large, powerful
animal could be lead wihout struggle by a child rather than suffer the
pain any struggle would result in. I can also predict with a high level
of confidence that I (or most of you for that matter) if hooked in the
mouth would indeed feel pain but would not require very heavy line or a
finely tuned drag to retrieve. I have thus come to the conclusion
peronally that while fish may feel pain, it is almost certainly not the
same type of pain people experience.
Lovetheducks
>seen or known about fire and went back and told all the other fishes.
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>And you're a scientist, Jon?
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Thanks, that made my day
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