Peerage help wonderment
The Bratt
their ceremony? I ask because we counted about 40ish people that helped
her Excellency from Gryphon's Lair (kingdom of Artemisia).
Ashe'el
Ralph E Lindberg
The Bratt <brat...@aros.net> wrote:
Do you mean the ceremonial escort? Or just people hanging around
because their good friend is getting the major cookie?
Ralg AnTir
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The Bratt
>
> Do you mean the ceremonial escort? Or just people hanging around
> because their good friend is getting the major cookie?
>
> Ralg AnTir
>
No, more like making the outfits, making sure the vigil area is taken
care of.
Heather Rose Jones
I confess that I'm trying to think of a constructive reason for
performing a "whose is bigger" comparison of this type. Does having
more assistants make a new peer more worthy in some fashion?
Tangwystyl
--
Heather Rose Jones
heatherrosejones.com
lj=hrj
David Friedman
heathe...@earthlink.net (Heather Rose Jones) wrote:
> The Bratt <brat...@aros.net> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Do you mean the ceremonial escort? Or just people hanging around
> > > because their good friend is getting the major cookie?
> > >
> > > Ralg AnTir
> > >
> >
> > No, more like making the outfits, making sure the vigil area is taken
> > care of.
>
> I confess that I'm trying to think of a constructive reason for
> performing a "whose is bigger" comparison of this type. Does having
> more assistants make a new peer more worthy in some fashion?
Or less? "He can't even tie his points without three friends to help
him."
There are ways in which the Society has become less fun as it has gotten
bigger.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now
Jenn Ridley
>The Bratt <brat...@aros.net> wrote:
>
>> >
>> > Do you mean the ceremonial escort? Or just people hanging around
>> > because their good friend is getting the major cookie?
>> >
>> > Ralg AnTir
>> >
>>
>> No, more like making the outfits, making sure the vigil area is taken
>> care of.
>
>I confess that I'm trying to think of a constructive reason for
>performing a "whose is bigger" comparison of this type. Does having
>more assistants make a new peer more worthy in some fashion?
Hmmm. I interpreted the original question to be more of a "there were
X people helping at this recent elevation. Is this 'normal'?" query.
I didn't see any kind of value judgement implied, in either direction.
--
Anastasia Emilianova
Jenn Ridley : jri...@chartermi.net
Dorothy J Heydt
Heather Rose Jones <heathe...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>The Bratt <brat...@aros.net> wrote:
>
>> >
>> > Do you mean the ceremonial escort? Or just people hanging around
>> > because their good friend is getting the major cookie?
>>
>> care of.
>
>I confess that I'm trying to think of a constructive reason for
>performing a "whose is bigger" comparison of this type. Does having
>more assistants make a new peer more worthy in some fashion?
I have the feeling that it's partly Interkingdom Anthropology,
partly the passage of time.
A few evenings ago I was sitting in a meeting with several
Venerable Old Peers of the West, including Sir William of York,
Master Wilhelm von Schluessel, and Sir Hilary of Serendip ... not
to mention my lord husband and myself, who also got our danglies
in AS single-digits. Sir William commented that peerage
ceremonies had changed a lot since he were a lad, what with
everybody knowing about it beforehand, massive ceremonies with
lots of attendants and witnesses, and night-long vigils
beforehand with everyone invited (there had been one at Twelfth
Night, just past, and he was still reeling from the shock I
guess).
Customs had, as he said, changed a lot since the old days, when
if you were going to get knighted or Laureled or something, the
herald called you up, the King presented you with your token (and
his you with his sword if you were getting knighted), the herald
exhorted the cheers of the populace, and that was IT. A
Laureling took up less time and energy than an AoA ceremony does
today.
I pointed out that we try to do it according to individual taste,
which means finding out surreptitiously and over a period of
years (if necessary) what the individual might want. Eilis
O'Boirne does a lot of this: of an evening, around the campfire,
she brings the conversation around to "if you were getting a
peerage, how would you like it done?" and noting the answers she
gets, from "I want to be totally surprised" through "I'd like
just enough warning to change into clean clothes and make sure my
lady is present" to "I want to be knighted on the battlefield,"
all the way to "I want at least three months' warning, so I can
make new clothes for myself, my lord, and my attendants, and
research and write the ceremony in my persona's native tongue,
and spend some time coaching the King to pronounce it." And then
she remembers it for as long as necessary.
Other Kingdoms, other customs. I remember being blown away by a
Laureling ceremony done by the Calontiri, at the one Pennsic I
attended. Others, I suppose, do things more quietly. Whatever
works.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Jay Rudin
> I pointed out that we try to do it according to individual taste,
> which means finding out surreptitiously and over a period of
> years (if necessary) what the individual might want. Eilis
> O'Boirne does a lot of this: of an evening, around the campfire,
> she brings the conversation around to "if you were getting a
> peerage, how would you like it done?" and noting the answers she
> gets, from "I want to be totally surprised" through "I'd like
> just enough warning to change into clean clothes and make sure my
> lady is present" to "I want to be knighted on the battlefield,"
> all the way to "I want at least three months' warning, so I can
> make new clothes for myself, my lord, and my attendants, and
> research and write the ceremony in my persona's native tongue,
> and spend some time coaching the King to pronounce it." And then
> she remembers it for as long as necessary.
In Ansteorra, it has become custom to call the recipient up, offer the
peerage, and then ask him / her when they would like to receive it. I
remember one person who said, with engaging directness, "I don't want to
make a dress and have a party -- do me now."
Due to strange situations, both my Laurel and my Pelican came four months
after the announcement. While I was still fighting seriously, I told a
couple of knights, "If you ever talk about me for a knighthood, I don't want
to hear about it until the king slugs me."
Roboin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
Ted Eisenstein
> The Bratt <brat...@aros.net> wrote:
>
>
>>> Do you mean the ceremonial escort? Or just people hanging around
>>>because their good friend is getting the major cookie?
>>>
>>>Ralg AnTir
>>>
>>
>>No, more like making the outfits, making sure the vigil area is taken
>>care of.
>
>
> I confess that I'm trying to think of a constructive reason for
> performing a "whose is bigger" comparison of this type. Does having
> more assistants make a new peer more worthy in some fashion?
Well, there is that whole "Look at how many retainers he has! He must
be a rich and powerful lord!" attitude that some say was prevalent
in the Middle Ages. . . If we're recreating history, why not the
whole "my retainers can beat up on your retainers" thang?
:-)
Alban
Mark S. Harris
David Friedman <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
> In article <1hrue6q.17bd5x26eaql0N%heathe...@earthlink.net>,
> heathe...@earthlink.net (Heather Rose Jones) wrote:
>
> > The Bratt <brat...@aros.net> wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > > Do you mean the ceremonial escort? Or just people hanging around
> > > > because their good friend is getting the major cookie?
> > > >
> > > > Ralg AnTir
> > > >
> > >
> > > No, more like making the outfits, making sure the vigil area is taken
> > > care of.
> >
> > I confess that I'm trying to think of a constructive reason for
> > performing a "whose is bigger" comparison of this type. Does having
> > more assistants make a new peer more worthy in some fashion?
>
> Or less? "He can't even tie his points without three friends to help
> him."
There appear to be some period fashions that suffer from this same
problem, although perhaps having three ladies in waiting, or whatever,
may be a bit of exageration.
> There are ways in which the Society has become less fun as it has gotten
> bigger.
Perhaps this is just part of the Society becoming a more accurate
representation of the time we study. After all, knighting ceremonies in
period seem to have gone all the way from simple to much, more elaborate
and complex with formal ceremonies and such. And the progression seems
to have been from earlier to later as well.
I think whether extra ceremony and complexity is less fun or more fun,
for the participant, or the viewers, I think is going to vary depending
upon individual taste. I guess it is similar to church ceremonies. Some
prefer the ceremony and elaborateness of a Catholic Mass, while others
prefer the simplisticy of some Protestant faiths.
Although I doubt it answers the original question, I have been trying to
collect some info on Peerage ceremonies in the SCA in this Florilegium
file:
peerage-cerem-msg (16K) 9/18/06 Thoughts on SCA Peerage ceremonies.
http://www.florilegium.org/files/SCA-INC/peerage-cerem-msg.html
peerage-vigls-msg (7K) 3/29/01 Comments on SCA Peerage Vigils.
http://www.florilegium.org/files/SCA-INC/peerage-vigls-msg.html
Stefan
--
THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas Stefan...@austin.rr.com
**** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
The Bratt
For 12th Night in the barony of Gryphon's Lair, in the kingdom of
Artemisia, her Exellentcy Baroness Bianca was pronounced the newest
Laurel of our kingdom.
She had it in her head two outfits that she wanted. SO, instead of this
being a 3 year project, like it WAS going to be, it ended up being a 4
month project. In order to get this all done she had, we counted, 35
people helping her out with the embroidery to make this event perfect
for her.
The vigil dress was inspired by a portrait of Anne Mayer.
http://www.marquise.de/en/1500/pics/1526_1.shtml
the end results:
http://brattboy.aros.net/Bianca/980e.jpg
The dress was a combination of embroidery from a dress of Elenor of
Toledo, from Janet Arnold's book (fashions of time) and another
portrait. Mind you this is actual gold thread couched with silk thread.
She is planning on bringing it to Estrella next year for the Opus A&S
category.
http://ladysarafina.home.att.net/isabeldevalois.JPG
the end results:
http://brattboy.aros.net/Bianca/74a3.jpg
http://brattboy.aros.net/Bianca/dbca.jpg
I just wondered if there was anyone else out there that had this many
people who helped out to make a peerage ceremony perfect.
Thanks,
Ashe'el
*who finally is getting a green belt (whooooooooooot)*
Heather Rose Jones
<snip of many many details
> I just wondered if there was anyone else out there that had this many
> people who helped out to make a peerage ceremony perfect.
Well if there was, it wasn't me. The number of people helping to make
my peerage ceremony perfect was zero. Nobody considered it neceessary
for me to even be present at my Laurel ceremony. I heard about it later
from a message on my answering machine -- and not from the royalty, just
from some person who'd been at the event. Six months later when I still
hadn't heard any official word about my elevation I asked the royalty if
maybe I could have a medallion or something.
I'm very happy for people who get "perfect" peerage ceremonies, but I
still don't see the useful point to making a big fuss over one person
having a bigger more wonderful ceremony than anyone else. "So-and-so's
ceremony had features X, Y, and Z" is an enjoyable posting.
"So-and-so's ceremony was bigger and better than anyone else's" strikes
me as calculated to make everyone else think they're supposed to feel
bad in comparison. Ok, so I feel bad in comparison -- are you happy
now?
The Bratt
Ok, so I feel bad in comparison -- are you happy
> now?
>
> Tangwystyl
>
My intention wasn't to ruin someone's day. I just curious to know if
this was common or abnormal, since it was my first time helping a candidate.
I thought this was a forum to share our interests, curiosities,
wonderments etc. Perhaps I was wrong.
My opinion, if I had been snubbed as such I would find a tactful way of
explaining to their Majesties that I have yet had the privelage to swear
my oath to the order, the kingdom and the society, and would like to do
that publicly.
Ashé'el
*going back to lurking*
Christian de Holacombe
> A few evenings ago I was sitting in a meeting with several
> Venerable Old Peers of the West, including Sir William of York,
> Master Wilhelm von Schluessel, and Sir Hilary of Serendip ... not
> to mention my lord husband and myself, who also got our danglies
> in AS single-digits. Sir William commented that peerage
> ceremonies had changed a lot since he were a lad, what with
> everybody knowing about it beforehand, massive ceremonies with
> lots of attendants and witnesses, and night-long vigils
> beforehand with everyone invited (there had been one at Twelfth
> Night, just past, and he was still reeling from the shock I
> guess).
Well, since mine was the ceremony that so amazed Sir William....
<grin> I have thanked many people for the pageantry they were able to
lend to the occasion. Sir William's lady was one of my two (brief)
spokespersons, so I expect he heard about it in great detail!
I should say that not quite everybody knew about it beforehand:
although I didn't try to keep it a deep, dark secret, and told people
they could tell anyone they thought had a reason to know, I did ask
people not to discuss it openly. I did know about it beforehand,
because I had made it known in advance that if it were to be offered
to me, I didn't want it to be a surprise in Court. NOT surprising
people in Court is now the default in the West, and I think it's a
good thing it is. For one thing, it gave me the opportunity to ask
Michaela de Neuville (Sir William's lady) to speak for me, and she
wouldn't have been there otherwise.
I've watched both apprenticeships and vigils become more common in the
West just in the dozen or so years I've been in the Society, and I
also think those are Good Things for those who want them. I was
Tangwystyl's apprentice for several years and learned a tremendous
amount that I don't think I would have otherwise (besides making a
very good friend). She also put a good deal of effort into making the
occasion special, for which I've already thanked her and the others
who contributed.
I did ask for a vigil, though it ended at 11:00pm, so it was by no
means an all-night thing (I'm too old to stay up all night, and my
roommates had no intention of doing so either!). I wanted one partly
because it was a custom of medieval "rites of passage" (not only
knights, but some people about to make other types of vows, for
instance). And for practical reasons, it was good to have some quiet
time to think about my new role and responsibilities.
There were a total of eight people in my mini-procession (including
me): Michaela's sister to carry my banner, three people from the
Needleworkers Guild carrying examples of my work, my two spokespeople,
and someone carrying the banner of a dear friend who couldn't be there
for health reasons. Tangwystyl had asked several of my friends to
embroider Laurel leaves for a short cloak, and several people
contributed to buying a wonderful medallion from my favorite jewelers.
She herself made me new clothes and a wreath of real laurel leaves
from the tree in her back yard. By current standards, I wouldn't call
this a "massive" effort, but I can see that it's quite different from
what Michaela describes from the early years.
(Dame) Christian de Holacombe, OL
Shire of Windy Meads, Kingdom of the West
Dorothy J Heydt
Christian de Holacombe <cla...@igc.org> wrote:
>On Jan 12, 10:37 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>> A few evenings ago I was sitting in a meeting with several
>> Venerable Old Peers of the West, including Sir William of York,
>> Master Wilhelm von Schluessel, and Sir Hilary of Serendip ... not
>> to mention my lord husband and myself, who also got our danglies
>> in AS single-digits. Sir William commented that peerage
>> ceremonies had changed a lot since he were a lad, what with
>> everybody knowing about it beforehand, massive ceremonies with
>> lots of attendants and witnesses, and night-long vigils
>> beforehand with everyone invited (there had been one at Twelfth
>> Night, just past, and he was still reeling from the shock I
>> guess).
>
>Well, since mine was the ceremony that so amazed Sir William....
><grin> I have thanked many people for the pageantry they were able to
>lend to the occasion. Sir William's lady was one of my two (brief)
>spokespersons, so I expect he heard about it in great detail!
Whatever works for you. I'm glad you had a ceremony that suited
you.
>
>....By current standards, I wouldn't call
>this a "massive" effort, but I can see that it's quite different from
>what Michaela describes from the early years.
Oh yes.
When I got my Laurel, for instance, the Herald called me into
court and read off the basic text, "therefore We are minded to
admit her to the right noble Order of the Laurel." And Her
Majesty hung a medallion around my neck (borrowed from Karina of
the Far West), and the Herald exhorted the cheers of the
populace, and that was it. The whole thing took about a minute
and a half. Less than what we do for an Award of Arms nowadays.
This would've been about AS V. Reign of Henrik and Seitse.
Steve Mesnick
> When I got my Laurel, for instance, the Herald called me into
> Majesty hung a medallion around my neck (borrowed from Karina of
> the Far West), and the Herald exhorted the cheers of the
> populace, and that was it. The whole thing took about a minute
> and a half.
> This would've been about AS V. Reign of Henrik and Seitse.
Fourteen years later, it hadn't changed much. That's basically how I got
my Pelican.
Pennsic XIII, AS XIX. Hasdrubal II & Amber.
(Well, okay, the order was called up, they told the king they "weren't
complete" and El of
Two Knives grabbed me outta the audience. Blam.) Twenty years and a day
later
(Pennsic XXXIII, AS XXXIX, Gaufred I and Geneviere I), I was made a
Laurel: a writ was
read, I was sent on vigil, and had a ceremony with four peerage
sponsors. And a *really*
nice hood %^).
Steffan ap Kennydd
East